Newbie 499 - Game Over

[The Fonz]

Vote:1nf3rn0

L33t SERIOUSLY blows.

[The Fonz]

Snailman, care to explain the point of that unvote?

[The Fonz]

Sure Fonz, Im a noob.

I don't really like the playing of the 'newbie card' this early...

lol aside from that i suddenly realised i put you on L-2, which couldve either made me look like i was going for an early wagon or may have given some noob mafias the opportunity to speed lynch if we were very unlucky.. even though we would probably know who they are..

It concerns me that you didn't know you were putting me at L-2, since the previous vote on me was right before yours, and it says very clearly at the top that it is four to lynch. (Also, I don't find L-2 in a newb scummy at all- check out my previous newbie games, I do it all the time just to get things moving. Therefore, I find the retraction, based on the fear it might make you look scummy, much worse than the actual action).

unvote, vote Snailman8

[The Fonz]

I find Snailman's vote/unvote quite strange actually. With his actual vote he says he's eager to get things out of random voting. Which I took as one of the reasons he put a second vote on someone.

And The Fonz' vote, I feel is a bit of an OMGUS vote.

*Deep breath*

How in a million goddamned years is that an OMGUS vote?

[The Fonz]

however it does bring a couple of suspicions up about the way you jumped on that one Fonz

For over analizing:

FoS: Fonz

Of course I jumped on it. We were in the random stage up until that point, and I thought it was something concrete, if small, to go on. Perpetual random stage favours scum. Vote stands.

[The Fonz]

Yes. There's no-one keener than me to get out of the random stage. I hate it. Hence jumping on the first semi-scummy thing I see. Your subsequent actions give me no reason to regret that.

[The Fonz]

Lets contribute with something, before I go to my Halloween party... XD

im totally with Snailman8 and WLC. they both have solid points. However im still waiting for the Fonz response and the opinion of IH, Xencobra and Inferno. Time will tell.

Actually, I think their points suck ass. Would you care to elaborate on them?

Until The Fonz gives a solid argument why he shouldnt be considered scum and just an agrresive townie, ill keep my vote on him.

Prove a negative? Nice one. It isn't guilty until proven innocent. Still like an actual answer to why anyone think my actions benefit scum.

Fonz: ok, i might be a bit harsh with him, but how strange is that after posting every day, this guy suddenly stops doing it just because the suspicions raised on him? i smell scum here.

Oh, a Fonz has stopped posting argument. Burn in hell. I've only had very limited time to spend on

scum

this week, and one or two games in which I was either in the middle of claiming or the town was at LyLo, whilst there's been almost nothing going on here. You may note that I've also neglected basically communist mafia in Coney Island, to name one. Fortunately for you, but not for me, i'm bedridden with flu right now so able to make a much fuller contribution.

The Fonz, I think you're a bit overreacting.

Again, duh. You have to pounce on small things during the random stage. Snailman8's panicky unvote when not under pressure, coupled with his playing of the newbie card at the earliest possible moment, is really quite scummy, ESPECIALLY in comparison with anything else that was going on at the time (ie, random votes). He also claimed that he hadn't realised it was an L-2 vote, and further completely ignored IH's post on why an L-2 vote isn't scummy in the first place.

I think I find Snailman's behavior a bit more strange than Fonz' reaction. Although Fonz' cursing was uncalled for, and could be seen as an overdefensive scum.

Firstly, there is no such thing as overdefensive in mafia, and there never has been. It's not scummy to defend against accusations labelled against you. As for the 'cursing' 1) if you think goddamn is actually a curse, you've lived a ridiculously sheltered life and 2) I had to go for a walk for five minutes to not post a much angrier, more X-rated response to such a monumental piece of idiocy.

I mean seriously: does no-one think accusing me of OMGUS when voting a guy FOR THE MANNER IN WHICH HE

UN

VOTED ME, a vote that was random in the first place, is in any way OMGUS?

I don't even see that as defensive, either. I see it as aggressive. Someone says something ridiculous, I call them on it. Again, perhaps you'd all like to hang around in the random vote stage until we're deadlined, and end up with a basically random lynch, or none. Not me. I take my responsibilities as pro-town IC seriously.

Also, for good measure the way Snailman throws FOS' (Friend Of Scum) around and doesn't put his money where his mouth is also bugs me.

Peace out.

[The Fonz]

Just spotted one more thing...


I unvoted before IH posted his newbie post

Fair point.

Just spotted one more thing...


I unvoted before IH posted his newbie post

Fair point.

Fortunately for you, but not for me, i'm bedridden with flu right now so able to make a much fuller contribution.

Explain pluz

Sure. I didn't go out last night, and I'm not working today. Therefore, I have little better to do than sit on the computer playing mafia.

Firstly, there is no such thing as overdefensive in mafia, and there never has been. It's not scummy to defend against accusations labelled against you. As for the 'cursing' 1) if you think goddamn is actually a curse, you've lived a ridiculously sheltered life and 2) I had to go for a walk for five minutes to not post a much angrier, more X-rated response to such a monumental piece of idiocy.

Untrue. Over defensiveness is a scumtell that works a good bit of the time. The newer the player, the less weight it holds, BUT pure logic would send us in the direction that a player defending at straws obviously has something to defend against.

Disagree. Strawmanning is the scumtell, not reacting to it. Especially when that position is for some reason gaining support. See any game MoS has ever played.

There's also a slip I forgot to mention in my last post: if you'll forgive the double post, i'll go find it.

[The Fonz]

I find The Fonz's play to be consistent with his analyzing style and grab hold of things

Even after many of the protown players think that The Fonz reaction is a little suspicious. Interesting. Finally this game is starting to be fun.

Gotcha. populartajo appears to know who the protown players are.

[The Fonz]

IH: see Lost Boys Mafia (ongoing, but I'm dead) for why I absolutely hate that line of thought.

Snailman: It didn't read that way to me.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and also, I'd prefer you let populartajo answer for himself, rather than spoonfeed him one he might not have thought of.

[The Fonz]

1. Yeah, finally, Fonz is back and i mean it, He IS back. After i think 4-5 days of not posting at all he comes back with the perfect hate-post, the post I was waiting. Something told me to unvote him (i stated that he could be a bored townie) and now I think I couldnt be more confused. He's angry with all the town, but i cant blame him. I think we just put too much pressure in him. But in the other hand, he just doesnt stop being overdefensive and overreactive to all the things posted here about him. I mean, man chill out, it isnt good for ur health.

I don't suffer fools gladly. That's me, I'm afraid.

Gotcha. populartajo appears to know who the protown players are.

I mean, Fonz, dont u know who the protown players are? maybe an idea? it isnt too hard. I mean, you are the IC, you should already have an idea of who is protown and scum, shoudln't you?. Let me see. Random example.

No. I don't. I have my suspicions, but I'm a very long way from

knowing

. If you wish to state as fact that X, Y, Z are pro-town, I'd expect at least an argument based on strong conviction, not to just drop it in there.

Also, for good measure the way Snailman throws FOS' (Friend Of Scum) around and doesn't put his money where his mouth is also bugs me

If ir read well, you dont think Snailman8 is very protown at all, huh? get my point?

No, I don't, but I still consider pretty much anyone potential scum as of now. I mean, you, Snailman and Weyoun have all acted in manners ranging from the odd to the scummy, we have two players yet to contribute, and that only leaves IH, who as an IC is likely to be much too good a player to be obvscum on day one anyway.

2.

mean seriously: does no-one think accusing me of OMGUS when voting a guy FOR THE MANNER IN WHICH HE UNVOTED ME, a vote that was random in the first place, is in any way OMGUS?

Snailman8 and you are my first suspects. You are not alone in this. I also think he has a really strange strange behavior. Also, he's trying somehow to be stragenly helpful with me.

That, I believe, was Weyoun and not Snailman making the 'omgus' argument. You then stated that I was wrong to argue that it wasn't an omgus vote and that it was an overreaction of me to ask how on earth my vote could possibly be omgus, on the spurious grounds that Weyoun said 'a bit of an omgus vote' rather than 'an omgus vote.'

Also, how can you consistently hold the two positions that Snailman's behaviour was indeed odd, and that it was an overreaction on my part to call attention to it?

3. IH : Although he doesnt stop discovering more and more things about my eager way of playing, i think he's by far our most protown player. I could be wrong, but somehow I think he is just like me : trying to find even the little thing to put some pressure.

You claim to be into 'trying to find even the little thing to put some pressure.' When I do EXACTLY THAT, you vote for me, calling it an overreaction.

[The Fonz]

Weyoun, as you're here, any chance of an explanation of that OMGUS accusation?

[The Fonz]

Impressive entrance, anything in particular caught your eye there elmo?

[The Fonz]

Answer the question. The issue i had with the omgus accusation was not that it was directed at me, but that it was profoundly illogical, and I'd like to know the thought process behind it.

[The Fonz]

Elmo

is

Xencobra, IH.

[The Fonz]

Fonz I'm also doing something specific with my last post.

I feel it necessary to point it out to the othe IC, before he ruins the awesome scumtell I found.

Apart from I don't know what you're doing, and can't see anything that leaps out as a scumtell other than things i've already mentioned. I'm kinda wondering how i can 'ruin' a scumtell that supposedly already been committed by not doing anything?

[The Fonz]

No access till monday.

[The Fonz]

personally I dont think itll make a difference. Lynch me day 2 if you dont believe me

This is far more sure than anyone can reasonably be at this stage. And seriously, the 'if I'm wrong, lynch ME' line is most often used by bussing scum.

I chose IH as my target simply because I was slightly sus of him, even pre his "awesome scumtell". The tactic that he did use i do still consider scummy but even more so is his reaction. I was expecting something more along the lines of IH explaining himself and his scumtell's intentions futher. If he was to be town

Why is his tactic scummy, please?

[The Fonz]

Okay, so if I understand you (being mostly Elmo and The Fonz) want an explanation for this interaction?

I'm still not sure if I see The Fonz' behavior as trying to find scum-mistakes, or as making little thing suspicious so he can create a possible bandwagon on someone.

No, not that, this:

And The Fonz' vote, I feel is a bit of an OMGUS vote.

[The Fonz]

Weyoun- one more question on that subject- do you really think it makes sense for anyone to place a serious vote as a retaliation to a random one? Let alone a random one that had since been removed.

[The Fonz]

OK, a re-read reveals a few things that I missed first time round.

One, I don't care how many times Weyoun says it, goddamn is not a curse where I come from. But I think we've covered that ground more than satisfactorily.

I definitely think IH has explained the intent of his trap more than enough, and it seems a reasonable, if flawed, plan to have tried. I certainly don't think he's trying to deflect rather than defend. The Snail/Tajo double teaming of IH, on the same, imho unfounded, accusation pings my scumdar.

Tajo, when you did your little list with the numbers, you had three guys on six and one on seven. I personally don't understand how you can have half the game as more likely than not scum. Has anything changed to separate these guys, in your view?

WLC- 'Overly consistent,' wth? I smell a 'too townie' argument.

I really don't know where the Elmo wagon's come from. This is not to say i find Elmo exceptionally town (length of post tends to be a playstyle thing) but i don't think he's said anything particularly objectionable.

I'm feeling there's AT LEAST one scum in Snailman/Tajo, with WLC a potential buddy for either. That said, there isn't yet enough Flameaxe in the thread for me to get a read on him.

[The Fonz]

In my

humble

opinion.

[The Fonz]

Erm... be with you shortly guys. Still don't understand the IH wagon.

[The Fonz]

My first suspicions were raised when he tried to point out scumtells in everything that moved.

Er... hello? This is MAFIA. You're supposed to point out possible scumtells when you see 'em. If you want to make this argument, you have to demonstrate that one or more of those tells you list isn't a tell, or might represent opportunism. Because pointing out scumtells in itself sure as hell isn't a scumtell.

Small scumtell attempting to look town by berating someone for not posting enough halfway through the first page.

Fair point by IH. Oh, look, I'm so townie and active everyone!

Until The Fonz gives a solid argument why he shouldnt be considered scum and just an agrresive townie, ill keep my vote on him.

I can't believe I missed this. This is burden of proof. It's in the logical fallacies section of the wiki. Look it up, I'm to lazy to link it atm. Maybe later.

This is an absolutely HUGE scumtell on the part of Tajo imho, I'd think it remiss of IH NOT to notice it.

Untrue. Over defensiveness is a scumtell that works a good bit of the time. The newer the player, the less weight it holds, BUT pure logic would send us in the direction that a player defending at straws obviously has something to defend against.

This is in the context of IH and I arguing over whether overdefensiveness is a scumtell. I said that I don't believe 'being overdefensive' is a scumtell at all (which is an opinion i hold very strongly indeed) again, I would EXPECT IH to back up his position here.

So, so far, I've not seen anything scummy AT ALL.

In Post 79, IH begins his Scumtell trap.

Also I saw a very large scumtell in the game too. The person probably knows what they did. FoS you know who you are. I will reveal it in the next few posts.

I jumped on him for this because

1: I thought he was slightly scummy be trying to put scumtells on people who IMHO diddnt desserve them at all.

2: At this point I had not much else to go on and I wanted to keep the game going.

3: I wanted to see how he reacted under pressure.

1) Doesn't make any sense. I'm struggling to see what you could mean by 'put scumtells on people.' Could you possibly state this in a manner that's easier to understand?

2) Is a copout. And if that's your only reasoning for being on IH, why are you still there? There's plenty to go on right now.

3) Again, you've done that now.

So you've given one

reason

that doesn't make any sense, and two

excuses.

FYI, If I had thought anyone else was looking suss at this point in time and gave me a reason to jump on them, I wouldve.

Except that by NOT giving your reasoning straight away, you can find out who's willing to blindly play follow the IC, who might think IH was referring to them and give themselves away thru guilty conscience, or cause other people to point out what they themselves saw as big scumtells and ask if that was what IH meant, therefore causing other players to give firm opinions.

Frankly, I don't care what YOU would have done. You're not IH. I'm interested in working out 'what was IH thinking?'

I half expected an FoS to come from fonz, because usually secret scumtells can be scummy (trying to get someone to lay out a case, or say "Thats exactly what I saw!")

Blatantly acknowledges that what he did was scummy

Or can be seen as scummy, which is not the same thing. This, though, is a decent point. @ IH, in what scenarios would you consider a 'secret scumtell' to be scummy?

It could be used to make the town over analyse something that was totaly innocent and send the town down the complete wrong track. And leaving it open ended like that leaves it up to the towns imagination on the subject of what is scummy and who to accuse. This would leave IH in the position (if he is scum) to jump on a wagon someone else starts one when the think they see something, leaving IH guilt free cos he didnt say nothing..

I don't get this. IH's 'trap' might cause other people to act in a scummy way... therefore IH is scum. If I'm a townie and don't see a big scumtell anywhere, I wait and see what IH claims this tell to be- exactly the situation which unfolded, in fact. I didn't see anything particularly big, so I didn't pretend I did. If someone did, that's a potential scumtell.

So because something can be interpreted as scummy, do you think I'm scummy for doing it anyways to get some more discussion goin

One line was alot less than what myself and it seemed Tajo was expecting as justification from IH for his trap.

Length =/= content. Also, I don't think you actually answered his question.

BLAH BLAH.

IH then tries to once again question us instead of just defending himself. Even tho the answer I was written out in my explantion Post 128

Scummy argument by snail here, IH is as entitled to answers from you as you are from him.

As a side point, Im not sure how relevant it is but Fonz had no idea what IH was trying to do with the "scumtell" trap.

Translation: I'm not sure if this is at all relevant, but goshdarnit if it doesn't sound like it makes IH somehow scummy.

We see IH once again try for the Red Herring by putting me at L-1 for what, IMHO was a pretty crap reason.

Not in my eyes.

IH is then ill for 13 days, Im not holding that against him, too much.

Try

at all?

Tajo make the ppoint that IH waited till I said I would be away before he put the L-1 on me in post 188.

crap argument.

IH then returns firstly once agin trying to attack me instead of defending himself

Crapargument, again you don't have a divine right to be on the offensive.

[The Fonz]

IH. WLC and Fonz, I havent heard of you in a while. You are lurking too much for my taste.

Can we have a Mod Prod on IH, WLC, and Fonz?

Now, IM DONE.

Why would I need a prod within 24 hrs of my last post?

[The Fonz]

My opinion is pretty clear. I think IH is town, and that you, WLC and Snail are all individually scummy, and tied to one another. This is mollified by the fact that there isn't really anything between you to differentiate between silly n00b and opportunistic scum hiding behind newbie status.

[The Fonz]

Thing is, apart from me and Flameaxe, there's no-one who strikes me as a possible buddy. And from my perspective, someone who could only possibly be scum with one other player is a bad move. IH's play appears to be consistent with genuine scumhunting.

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: That is, from a neutral perspective, IH, Elmo, Tajo and Snail seem unlikely IH buddies. OBviously I KNOW I'm town.

[The Fonz]

Why do you keep hammering that point? Snailman's reaction wasn't the only reason he's scummy. Though, in short, because it seemed a very opportunistic attack on IH based on misrepresentation, and I don't buy this whole 'just aggressive' thing from Snail OR Tajo since the pair of them jumped on me for being aggressive early on.

[The Fonz]

Yep, there isn't yet anything to differentiate between those three, so right now i'm happy lynching any of them, unless something big comes up.

Also, there's a difference between thinking 'I'd do what X did there in his position' and 'What X did there was scummy.'

[The Fonz]

Thing is, apart from me and Flameaxe, there's no-one who strikes me as a possible buddy. And from my perspective, someone who could only possibly be scum with one other player is a bad move. IH's play appears to be consistent with genuine scumhunting.

Why is it a bad move? Im assuming u are thinking here Flameaxe is a possible buddy. In general, what do u think of him?

Well, to begin the day, anyone could be scum with pretty much anyone. When someone attacks someone else in a manner that seems likely to be sincere, the chances of them being buddies is diminished. If pretty much everyone else is attacking one player, then it's hard to see how he can be scum with anyone- and if it's hard to find a possible scumpair, that player isn't likely scum.

As for Flameaxe- I can't read him. He does seem a little more rational than normal. He doesn't leap out as scummy to me, and his style is one upon which opportunists often jump.

[The Fonz]

lol WLC, I dont think awkwardness is nessasary, if I was drunk and had two accounts, I would probably end up doing something similar.

As for Flameaxe- I can't read him. He does seem a little more rational than normal. He doesn't leap out as scummy to me, and his style is one upon which opportunists often jump.

Total agree, tho when you say normaly, are you talking through this game or past games?

The general impression of Flameaxe from all games including him I have read.

[The Fonz]

I'm already on Snail, at least according to the most recent VC i can find. So i can't hammer.

[The Fonz]

Hmmm.

Unvote, vote Weyounslastclone

[The Fonz]

Want to guess?

[The Fonz]

Weyoun- you're damn right i found your last vote suspicious.

lol WLC, I dont think awkwardness is nessasary, if I was drunk and had two accounts, I would probably end up doing something similar.

I don't like how you defend 'tajo. I see no excuse for mixing up. I don't like multipe accounts in any case, but if you have more than one, you'd better not slip up. Drunk or not, it's stupid and makes someone suspicious (to me at least).

Really bad argument. Why are scum more likely to accidentally post with an alt than town?

I'm really not sure about Snailman at the moment. He seems to be participating a little bit, posting not too controversive comments to not draw too much attention to himself, I guess. Together with IH who seems to have disappeared entirely, I find him the most scummy at the moment.

Unvote. Vote Snailman8.

My main reason for finding this suspect is that you've been 'allied' with snail and Tajo in going after IH for a good while, but now it seems like as soon as you met determined resistance, you decided to turn on a player you've been agreeing with for most of the game.

[The Fonz]

I'm going to do a quick look over Elmo's posts, because if what Elias says here is true, that's pretty damning. Still finding Weyoun teh scummies.

[The Fonz]

OK, here's the totality of everything Elmo said about IH prior to the L-1.

I like Fonz. Snailman is okay so far. Dunno about IH.

Do you think someone should put a third vote on IH?

;Elmo"]

Why is his tactic scummy, please?

Glad you are still here, Fonz. What do you think of the gamestate now that you are back?

Considering you voted for IH first, I feel you also need to be answering this question. Do so.

Then when he attacks Ih for the L-1, he says:

Convince me you haven't done this just so you have a reason to get heat off your scumbuddy Weyoun and have some vague reason for going hard on a already suspicious-looking townie. Now.

Notice the gradual progression in Elmo's posts from Weyoun is scum to Weyoun is scum with IH to IH is scum with Flameaxe.

I really can't see anything in Elmo's attack other than he appears to disagree with Flameaxe/IH/Elias on whether Snailman's response was scummy or not.

I'm calling Weyoun/Elmo right here, right now.

[The Fonz]

All I can say is Elmo's drift on the subject of Weyoun screams early bus to me.

[The Fonz]

There's a big difference there though, Weyoun. IH never suggested that putting someone at L-1 was always a bad idea. He said that doing so early on, before there'd been any real discussion, was a bad idea. He put Snail on -1 on page six, which for a newbie game really isn't that early, and after there'd been a fair bit of discussion of matters of substance (we got outta the RVS in a hurry).

[The Fonz]

IH: I don't like the trap he set up. Why claim to see a scumtell when there isn't one. It only brought confusion to each and everyone of us, which wasn't good for town in my opinion.

And that's another reason I still think his trap is at least antitownie.

I'm sorry, but the fact that people are confused doesn't make it antitown. Unless you wish to assert that confused town respond in exactly the same way as confused scum.

Also, he warns of the danger of putting someone at L-1, but is the first one to do so himself.

This post and this kind of senteces makes me think that WLC may just be newbie townie.

What do you mean? Weyoun is far from a raw newbie. IIRC, he was already 'mafia scum' when this one began.

[The Fonz]

I'm sorry, but the fact that people are confused doesn't make it antitown. Unless you wish to assert that confused town respond in exactly the same way as confused scum.

I don't know. You never know how someone can react and scum can work its reaction according to the cirscunstances. Thats' why IMO, townies should avoid possible confusing situations. Confusion = town loses, scum wins. And, Fonz, why are you ignoring this?

Simple. I didn't see it.

I reformulate, then. What would have happened if the trap hadn't worked like IH (assuming he was town) wanted to? What would have happened if player "newbie townie" had reacted strangely enough for IH? Being in control of a determinate situation, reactions, etc is what just doesn't smell good to me.

But the rationale behind the trap is that most townies would react in one way, and scum in another, newbie or not. This may be stating the obvious, but if newbies in general tend to respond to a situation in a certain way because they're newbies, rather than due to alignment, it's not a scumtrap- it's a newbie trap. The fact that none of the newbies in the game actually 'sprung' it indicates that it was not, in fact, that.

What do you mean? Weyoun is far from a raw newbie. IIRC, he was already 'mafia scum' when this one began.

Don't you think he's a little newbie/silly for his general posts, ideas, suspicions?[/quote]

As I said a while back, I saw you, snail, and Weyoun as potential 'newbie townies looking scum due simply to newbishness.' I have since seen things that I consider to be rather firmer indicators of alignment. I asked since the bit you quoted to highlight this doesn't look silly to me, it looked hella scummy- making a bad argument based on an invented contradiction.

[The Fonz]

lo, in before prod

Fonz, why would I be bussing WLC when he wasn't under suspicion from anyone else?

Because, duh, that's the best time to bus since it lets you distance without actually risking lynch?

[The Fonz]

But when you attacked IH in the first place, you alleged that he was attempting to deflect attention from his 'buddy' Weyoun. Now you're going after Flameaxe for no other reason I can see than that he defended IH.

You don't think you've changed your opinion? You've gone from stating outright that he *IS* scum, to stating outright that two other people are. If that's not a change of opinion...

[The Fonz]

TO IH:

[

Convince me you haven't done this just so you have a reason to get heat off your scumbuddy Weyoun and have some vague reason for going hard on a already suspicious-looking townie. Now.

TO Weyoun:

You make me giggle, scumbag.

[The Fonz]

I believe I just referred to the first one; I wanted IH to "convince me" he hadn't done that to move the heat away from Weyoun, because I felt there was something odd with his eagerness to vote WLC, then switch away suddenly.

This is funny, because it's exactly what i see in you.

[The Fonz]

No, moving away from Weyoun.

[The Fonz]

Neither Elias nor I is currently pushing Tajo-Scum.

[The Fonz]

I don't call saying someone else is scum, and listing Elmo as one of three potential scumbuddies, softwagoning Elmo. Let's paraphrase what Flameaxe said:

I think Populartajo is scum, and Fonz and Elias are town

How is this an attack on elmo in particular?

[The Fonz]

My opinion of the Flameaxe-Tajo chat: well, Flameaxe is making more sense. I do find it ironic that Flameaxe is being accused of following Elias and I when the three of us have different top suspects. I don't particularly think either one is scum- as I said, I'm leaning strongly to Elmo/Weyoun.

[The Fonz]

I was on Weyoun prior to Elmo. I actually suspect Elmo largely on connections to Weyoun. My main thing against Weyoun remains his turning on his erstwhile allies without a decent reason, really.

[The Fonz]

Fonz, WLC where the hell are you?
?

Right here. It's not that tons has been going down in my absence. Still like my Weyoun case, which for Elias' benefit, is summarised here:

He used the 'overreacting' and 'defensive' non-tells
The whole 'omgus' thing
Accused Elmo of being 'overly consistent' -this could be a deliberately weak argument, either way it's scummy

My opinion is pretty clear. I think IH is town, and that you, WLC and Snail are all individually scummy, and tied to one another. This is mollified by the fact that there isn't really anything between you to differentiate between silly n00b and opportunistic scum hiding behind newbie status.

The difference, for me, was when Weyoun switched his vote onto someone he'd been agreeing with for weeks, and away from the person they'd been co-operating to attack. Without posting anything like a decent rationale.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote Elmo

Since no-one is joining me on the Weyoun wagon, and Tajo appears minded to help lynch Elmo.

[The Fonz]

The difference, for me, was when Weyoun switched his vote onto someone he'd been agreeing with for weeks, and away from the person they'd been co-operating to attack. Without posting anything like a decent rationale

When did he agree with Snailman8? You haven't answered who are/were his allies? IIRC, WeyounsLastClone has always been a pretty neutral player. I just think he's trying too hard when finding scumtells.

Snailman8, populartajo, and Weyoun were all teaming up to try to get IH/Elias lynched off of crap arguments for several weeks.

[The Fonz]

Thats why im uncertain to his alignment.

Fuck, Elias, he has a vote on me. It's D2 and WLC has posted only once and Fonz is not even here. This vote is not idiocy, it's proof he's scum that doesnt care about a possible townie dying, he's just voting for the easiest target.

The fact that he happens to be voting for you is proof he's scum?

Are you serious? Can you read? He doesnt even know why he's voting for me. Why are you defendig him? He 's voting D2 with no reason at all.

*CRAPLOGIC ALARM*

Not giving reasons and not having reasons are not remotely the same thing.

Dont you get it? He never gives a reason.

Given that the vote is an extention of his vote yesterday, it seems reasonable.

His suspicions yesterday were never reasonable, IIRC.

Mafia player in 'Doesn't think arguments against him are reasonable' shocker.

In addition, the very phrasing of Tajo's arguments seems to me to stink. 'The scum needed this lynch' and 'we should look for the one who pushed it and encouraged others to join the wagon.' MWAH! WRONG! Which of these is also a rational reason for supporting the lynch of another player incessantly?

1. You're on drugs. 2. You genuinely found his play really scummy, and found him much the likeliest player to be scum. 3. Barack Obama said so?

Townies are not only wrong when they're confused.

[The Fonz]

Sigh... I sincerely had the feeling that Fonz was going to come with a neutral perspective. Am I so scummy? Really? Why?

I feel you're very wrong. That doesn't always imply scum, though my gut seems to think so.

All attackers there, did you know why did I said that it was a scum mistake to have NKed Snailman8? Because, supossing Im scum:
1. Now I dont have a logical scumparnter.

I have seen numerous games where two distinct and opposed factions form. There are often scum on both sides. It's kinda newbish to assume that scum always agree with each other.

Now, I know I argued earlier that you, snail, weyoun and elmo ganging up on Ih/Elias made it hard for me to see who could possibly be his buddy.

2. There was no reason for me as scum to have NKed a player who was agreeing with me in the game for most of the time.

To make you look innocent? To avoid the possibility of today's discussion revolving around the discussion of a possible Tajo/Snail pairing that might lead to your lynch?

3. Why didnt I NK one integrant of the other group (Elias, Flameaxe, Fonz)?

Well, firstly of course, we need to point out that whoever is scum has a buddy, so isn't solely responsible for the kill choice. Either of those two could be your buddy, which explains their survival pretty well. I think any of us could make a pretty convincing argument for why

we

weren't behind a snailman killing.

If pretty much everyone else is attacking one player, then it's hard to see how he can be scum with anyone- and if it's hard to find a possible scumpair, that player isn't likely scum.

Think about this, please.

Fine, but you need to take a couple things into account.

One, Weyoun is a perfectly feasible scumbuddy, and he's not around.

Two, the effect of a diminished pool of possible scumbuddies. If someone is only

likely

(rather than possible, since any amount of distancing is possible) to be scum with one out of five people, that's fairly strong evidence for his innocence. One out of three? Less so. Two people who were unlikely Elias partners dying as town reduces the power of that initial argument, if you follow.

Three, I'm not sure quite how much attacking is going on. Flameaxe is attacking you, fine. I'm not, as yet, I disagree with you on the issues but need to re-read you to see where you're coming from. And Elias...meh. I don't think he's yet gone after you in the manner that IH was attacked yesterday.

The fact that he happens to be voting for you is proof he's scum?

No, he can vote for whoever he wants but the point is that he has no reasons for voting me today. His "answer" to my question page 23 is not a case against me, and all his suspicions D1 are not really reasonable, he can't even post them. Even so, he's voting for me.

I can think of reasonable reasons for voting you. I don't recall Flameaxe ever laying out a decent case on anyone, why would he start now?

Not giving reasons and not having reasons are not remotely the same thing.

What? So, if anyone voted for you, Fonz, and not gave any reason, you wouldn't suspect him? And in D2?

Well, since I've often voted without advertising my reasons, no. I would be concerned if anyone followed him in this, sure. But not in itself.

n addition, the very phrasing of Tajo's arguments seems to me to stink. 'The scum needed this lynch' and 'we should look for the one who pushed it and encouraged others to join the wagon.' MWAH! WRONG!

It's not wrong, its logical. At least one of the lynchers knew that Elmo was town. I didnt know it.

I'm not going to take your word for it.

At the end of D2 you can see my doubts, my tries to reread the thread and my intentions of gathering the most conversation for D2. But, Elias needed that lynch, he was so blind about him that he never was interested of finding his scumpartner, he just wanted that lynch.

See day one of Newbie 421, where both myself and Kilmenator are utterly, beyond any possibility of swaying, convinced that the other is scum. I couldn't see any way her actions could have been explained by a pro-town rationale. We were both town.

It's not "my scumhunting abilities suck", Fuck, Fonz, if he wasnt totally sure he was going to lynch scum, why did he push this lynch so hard and now calls me an opportunist for jumping in his lynch?

I'm not trying to suggest he didn't feel extremely sure he was lynching scum, though. You can feel very sure and still be wrong. Generally, i find conviction to be a towntell.

[The Fonz]

I have seen numerous games where two distinct and opposed factions form. There are often scum on both sides.

Often? I have my doubts, but in our game it's a safe assumption.

In larger games, I'd go to 'almost invariably.'

Snailman8's group (Elmo and myself) wanted both Flameaxe and IH/Elias dead. Elias' group (Fonz and Flameaxe) wanted anyone of the other group to be lynched. For you, Fonz, WLC belonged to our group as you state in big part of D1. But using your logic that scum doesnt always agree with each other, then to your eyes, he can't be a logical scumpartner were I scum. Or does this logic only apply to you group?

Not quite true. Flameaxe wanted you dead. Elias wanted Elmo. And I wanted Weyoun. You're kinda distorting my point on WLC- he did indeed appear to be 'allied' to you/snail/elmo- but I voted him precisely for pulling a 180 and turning on his former allies without there being any logical reason I could see for so doing.

Now you say that there are often scum on both sides, but you think Flameaxe is not scummy

I think that

the specific reason you are giving for him being scum

is not a scumtell. That doesn't necessarily make him town.

and I still dont know what do you think about Elias, but I assume you like him too.

I'm leaning town on him, yes, but I haven't made up my mind on anyone yet.

To make you look innocent? To avoid the possibility of today's discussion revolving around the discussion of a possible Tajo/Snail pairing that might lead to your lynch?

Make me look innocent? How does killing the one who most shared my points of view, make me look innocent? Why not kill one of the guys who hated me? Fonz, really, all that quote is based in a horrible "you're just thinking about it too much"

How does killing someone who basically agrees with you make you look innocent? Come on, this isn't difficult. It's fairly simple wifom. It's entirely plausible you offed snail so you could make this precise argument. As for 'one of the guys who hated me' you mean Flame right?

Now think about this, scum needs just one stupid vote to quicklynch someone, why would I, assuming I am scum, kill one of my safe votes?

I refer you to all my previous answers on the subject.

why not kill Flameaxe or Elias, or even you and WLC who suspected our group so hard? Why not diminishing your group, Fonz?
It's because I'm not scum. Simple.

Do you really feel scum always off their most vocal critic? Hell no.

One, Weyoun is a perfectly feasible scumbuddy, and he's not around.

Why now Weyoun, just because of my smell?

Saying 'Weyoun is a feasible Tajo buddy' is not the same as saying Weyoun and Tajo are definitely a pair. Pretty much anyone is a feasible Weyoun partner.

Why not someone of your group? The fact that WLC has only one post in D2 doesn't make his attack less sincere, if you refer to a possible busing.

Why not? You appear to think I'm ruling this out.

Tajo, please understand this- I HAVEN'T MADE UP MY MIND YET.

Two, the effect of a diminished pool of possible scumbuddies. If someone is only likely (rather than possible, since any amount of distancing is possible) to be scum with one out of five people, that's fairly strong evidence for his innocence. One out of three? Less so. Two people who were unlikely Elias partners dying as town reduces the power of that initial argument, if you follow.

I do follow. The thing is that now that my group is dead, I dont have a logical scumpartner.

And you think it's impossible you made the kill so you could say that?

And why not suspect him? Fonz, read, he doesn't care. If he really were a townie who strongly suspects me as scum, why the vote without a reason? I have the right to defend me, to explain him things that he could have misunderstood. But he simply doesn't care, he doesn't want to explain, really why not suspect him?

If he doesn't explain his case, it's unlikely to convince anyone. Any kind of 'if he were a townie he wouldn't be like this' argument doesn't fly, since I've seen him as town and he

does

act exactly like this.

I'm not trying to suggest he didn't feel extremely sure he was lynching scum, though. You can feel very sure and still be wrong. Generally, i find conviction to be a towntell.

Conviction is a scumtell. They know for sure who's town and who isn't.

Just SO wrong. I could cite numerous incidences of townies baying for each others' blood. Like the aforementioned newbie game. Or MAD Mafia where MoS was so convinced I was scum he nuked me. OR Mafia 58, where townie Scotmany12 and Doc Amb spent the entire game going for each others' throats, until a cop investigation cleared Amb.

[The Fonz]

It's a difficult situation with just 5 people in the game, and all 3 townies having to vote for a scum. We probably don't have a cop, because otherwise he'd have claimed by now, right?

I asked twice, nobody answered. I suppose ICs know this is the best for town but yes, nobody has answered. So, we can assume we dont have a cop.

It's not a fair assumption, and if either or both of you is town, you've done your side a great disservice.

Basically, I don't think a cop without a guilty ought to claim on a day two after a town lynch, unless the player he has an innocent on is otherwise going to be lynched.

Also, for the 'not quicklynching' thing, you'd have to demonstrate that at some point two of myself, elias and weyoun were online simultaneously for it to be valid.

[The Fonz]

It's not a fair assumption, and if either or both of you is town, you've done your side a great disservice.

Why?

Helps scum narrow down who actually might be a cop. You and WLC have basically said that you are not cop.

Basically, I don't think a cop without a guilty ought to claim on a day two after a town lynch, unless the player he has an innocent on is otherwise going to be lynched.

I still dont know. We're talking about possibilities, someone who has an innoncent result of someone should probably claim, IMO, we have inmediate information of two players, one who can be faking the claim in the worst case, and one possible townie, assuming the cop is telling the truth.

There are situations where I've seen it work. I just wouldn't do it.

[The Fonz]

EBWOPBIASD
The cop result, assuming the claimer is the real cop, gives us two inmediate townies.

Which is precisely what you can't assume, so I don't think it's worth it.

[The Fonz]

Pretty much ANYONE makes a viable Weyoun scumpartner, imho.

[The Fonz]

Hmmm. Thoughts. I now believe Elias to be town pretty firmly. If Flameaxe is scum, allying with a competent player against a bad case pushed by several n00bs makes more sense than being the one on a town wagon who should have known better. And I really can't see Elias/Tajo.

I would like to see a firm opinion from WLC at some point this game.

[The Fonz]

Meh. Populartajo's last post seems more irritating, self-pitying noob than scum. THe pair aren't incompatible.

I'm gonna

vote: Weyounslastclone

If I'm going to lose, I'll lose following my instincts. And there's no way, in any other setup, I'd allow a player who'd managed to go through the entire game without giving an opinion, then refused to even when we were in LyLo, to live.

(Oh, and for those of you moaning that I haven't posted, I was waiting on WLC, then went V/LA!)

[The Fonz]

Fonz, Im just a noob trying to win a fight against three ICs. How can't I be irritating?

Well, for starters, stop pulling crap like this.

You're not trying to 'win a fight' you're supposed to be trying to figure out who's scum. And the major issue on which we disagreed (whether IH's 'trap' and reaction to it was lynchworthy) you have now conceded, having basically decided Elias is town. You may or may not have noticed that I'm voting someone else, and Elias is currently undecided.

What you're doing by bringing up your newbie status is generally called 'playing the newbie card.' Saying basically, 'I'm sorry, I didn't know what I was doing, I'm a newbie' is infuriating. You have to present your arguments as best you can formulate them. Then you have to accept that people won't agree with you all the time, even if you're right.

They'll present counterarguments, and you'll have to decide whether you think they're compelling or not. If they are, concede. It's not in the town's interests to push a bad argument for the sake of not admitting you're wrong. If you think they're not, then explain why either you think the argument is bad,

If you remember nothing else from this game, remember this:

No-one ever does ANYTHING just because they're a newbie. They do them because they think they're right, if town, or will advantage their side, if they're scum. So if you're pressed on something, depict the thought process behind it as accurately as you can, if you're town. It makes it easier for other players to get a read on you.

[The Fonz]

Meh.

There was no way I'd ever have voted for Elias over Weyoun in endgame anyway, and given that Tajo had decided Elias was town too, this has probably saved us all a lot of time and effort. As you might have guessed, I was leaning Flameaxe over Tajo as scum (the 'I'm seeing more irritating, self-pitying noob than scum' bit) but it had just gotten to the stage when I couldn't not vote for Weyoun, if you see what i mean.

But damn, I should know that when someone finds me town pretty much the whole way, they're scum. Decent town players ALWAYS find me scummy for some reason.

[The Fonz]

Elmo, I'm not surprised you dislike my play. I genuinely didn't, and still don't, think IH's trap was a scumtell. I meta'd him intensively and found him often doing similarly as town. I thought there were obvious contradictions in your play. And, kind of a gut reason, in that your play here strongly reminded me of myself when i was newbie town. I do have an atrocious town record in newbie games, though, barring one particularly memorable game.

I stand by the Weyoun vote though. The point of newbie games is to educate, and frankly, WLC's play deserved to cost his side the game, whichever team he was on. He needed to know what the consequences of playing like that on this site are.

[The Fonz]

You were making claims about your previous posts re: IH that I thought were visibly untrue. As for the WLC thing, the way your posts seemed to go WLC is scum-IH is scum with WLC- IH & Flameaxe, as I said at the time, that stunk to me, it looked like you distanced early, and then moved onto town targets, disregarding the logic of your original position.

I didn't like Snailman's reaction. If you think the trap is a nulltell, then attacking someone over it is a scumtell in my book.

Your take? I'm going to take it on board. I'm not necessarily going to like it. But I'm not going to flame you for it either, and it could be valuable.

As for WLC, I think he needed to be lynched. He was deliberately not providing the town with any useful information. I figured he was scum with Flameaxe, but there remained the possibility of Tajo/WLC, so given that I had Elias pegged as town, I went with the percentage play.

[The Fonz]

I have some pretty long posts explaining why I detest the newbie card, and believe that lynching the scummiest player is pretty much always the best move. I'm quite happy to continue discussing this later, but I'm logging off right now.

[The Fonz]

Fonz, if you had trouble with my behavior, why not with Flameaxe? If in LyLo there's someone voting another, without anything else happening, you know one of the two is mafia, then why'd you vote for another?

Why not with Flameaxe? He was contributing, giving opinions.

Yes, when one player votes another, it's likely one is mafia. Though not impossible- your absence meant you couldn't have quicklynched, had you been scum. Also, quicklynching is more difficult than generally assumed- you have to have both scum online at the same time, and hope a townie voting doesn't unvote between the two.

Also, Flameaxe/Tajo didn't feel like a bus. So one of the two probably was scum (I was guessing flameaxe), but you could be paired with either of them. Since I was confident in Elias' innocence, you pretty much had to be scum. Given that your play was also very scummy, it just seemed like the percentage play. Also, in the back of my mind was 'well, even if he's town, it's a lesson he has to learn.' WLC, are you familiar with lynch all lurkers?

I have to laugh looking back at my D1 opinion that Elias was likely town because I couldn't see any possible scumbuddy other than Flameaxe. Correct as a percentage play, but man it got me pwned.

[The Fonz]

QFT Elmo's last post.

Yeah, previous games I played also found people suspicious for 'lurking'. I still don't see why. It only attracts attention when you lurk, and as a scum you don't want to do that.

If lurking universally got you lynched, that would be true. However, many people oppose lurkerlynches on principle, since it is an 'easy' way to get lynches on town players who won't fight back. So long as lurking players will be defended, it will be a viable scum strategy, since lurking clearly is scum-benefitting in isolation (ie- if we take out how people might react to it) since it reduces the amount of information in the game, and that makes it harder for town to figure anything out.

I agree in a way that lurkers are detrimental to the game, and I'm sorry I've acted this way, but often when I'm town I'm just not sure enough of things to say something, being afraid people will find it suspicious.

In an actual game, I would vote ANYONE who said this, and never let up. 'I'm not doing anything because I'm afraid people will find it scummy' is a huge indicator that your primary goal is to survive and not to scumhunt, which is in turn a huge indicator of scum, since prioritising survival is a scum rather than a town necessity,

And when I finally say something, surprise, I get suspected. It's just a combination of me not being the best in translating my thoughts into words, and me wanting to be sure before I act.

Well, I finally voted you because of your pretty much outright refusal to give a firm opinion.

That's something I have to work on with playing Mafia, I guess. That's also why I think people who 'act townie' could actually very well be scum, because they know exactly what is happening and who is who, so they can post more coherent than a townie would do who is lost with his opinion.

Too townie argument. Horrible.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, but Tajo, sometimes people just do get really bad reads. The way everyone ganged up on IH day one really made me feel he was town. And since I REALLY couldn't see Elias/Tajo, then WLC was definitely scum if you were, and to my mind much more likely to be Flameaxe's scumbuddy than Elias was. So he seemed the percentage play.

My biggest fear about this game is that WLC learns nothing from it. Playing as he did here will get you lynched over and over outside the RtR. He needs to have more self-confidence. Being firm but wrong is actually better than snivelling in the corner going 'It's all too hard!' since at least it affords other players the chance to read you.