Newbie 499 - Game Over

[populartajo]

Ok, It's my first game so be patient with some of my dumb questions ok? so, i have to vote now.... mmmm

Vote : The Fonz

just because i dont understand what L33t SERIOUSLY blows mean

[populartajo]

Geez, I forgot to bold my vote

Vote: The Fonz

[populartajo]

are these games suppsoed to be this slow? i checked twice this afternoon just to find out that only just another person replied... i men wth??

[populartajo]

ok, im relieved now that our 7 "townies" have somehow aported to the thread. So, if im right this is time for random voting, isnt it? and.. is it common to have a vote and an unvote so fast?

[populartajo]

another thing bugging me, is the (until now) extense cooperation of Xencobra, i mean if you are town u arent just helping us dude.. lets talk people ok?
ill keep my vote until someone gets more suspicious, but for now i want to hear what others have to say

[populartajo]

ok this game seems to go nowhere. im sad because it is my first game. what does have to happen to make people post here? maybe some pressure?
i dont have any suspects yet but ill keep my vote. people we need to talk. share ur opinions... share ur suspicions.


xencobra said *

Um your kidding right? Its day 1 and it's random voting.

not joking at all, what do u think of this game so far, xencobra?

*on a side note, how can i quote with the "somebody said" form instead of just "quote:"? thx in advance

[populartajo]

How in a million goddamned years is that an OMGUS vote?

ok, The Fonz, u are being extremely overdefensive. Weyouns LastClone didnt say it was an 0MGUS vote, he said it was a kinda one...this is a little suspicious to me... on the other hand, reading the last comments i have to say that im extremely confused with the reaction of the people here. Some people are still lurking and not contributing at all. Mod, can we have a prod in this inactive people?... Snailman is a little suspicious as well, i dont know why, but just something in this snail-fonz conversation doesnt smell right.

I have my vote on you, Fonz, and i think im not wrong. do u have something to say?

oh and BTW

FOS:Snailman8

[populartajo]

Lets contribute with something, before I go to my Halloween party... XD

im totally with Snailman8 and WLC. they both have solid points. However im still waiting for the Fonz response and the opinion of IH, Xencobra and Inferno. Time will tell.

Until The Fonz gives a solid argument why he shouldnt be considered scum and just an agrresive townie, ill keep my vote on him.

BTW, shouldnt we ask the mod for a prod on these lurking guys, is it too early for asking somehting like that? shouldnt we probably put some pressure on these guys? they could be scum and roight now laughing at our faces...

[populartajo]

ok, i think this will be interesting to write...

populartajo: eager pro-town player... i liked that

WeyounsLastClone: i agree with snailman here. His posts sound pretty pro-town

Inferno: i really dont know. simply there are not enough Inferno's posts for an interesting assumption

Fonz: ok, i might be a bit harsh with him, but how strange is that after posting every day, this guy suddenly stops doing it just because the suspicions raised on him? i smell scum here.
however he might be a bored townie.. think twice before posting ur next answer boy.

IH : makes a copy paste post and suddenly dissapears. waiting for the prod anwer.

XenCobra: i had a little talk with him but sadly this guy also vanished like a ghost. not too much to say, then... where the hell are u people!!

Snailman8: suddenly this guy starts sounding protown after an strange beginning of the game. hes still suspicious to me but he has become a nice and participative player. he doenst stop confusing me lol

[populartajo]

Also, I find Tajo's play to be overactive newbie scum atm

What?? Overeactive? I mean i dont know if i have a playstyle yet becuase its my first game, but come on, the only think i was doing was trying to get people to talk. Is it considered scummy to try to get as many opinions as we need for revealing possible suspicious roles??

Why are u attacking me this way? Something isnt right here.

FoS:IH

And i would really like to know where The Fonz is. Every day that goes by I find him more and more suspicious. I find it quite strange that after The Fonz dissapears IH comes back to the game, starts attacking me and then he posts this:

I find The Fonz's play to be consistent with his analyzing style and grab hold of things

Even after many of the protown players think that The Fonz reaction is a little suspicious. Interesting. Finally this game is starting to be fun.

[populartajo]

What?? Overeactive? I mean i dont know if i have a playstyle yet becuase its my first game, but come on, the only think i was doing was trying to get people to talk. Is it considered scummy to try to get as many opinions as we need for revealing possible suspicious roles??

Why are u attacking me this way? Something isnt right here. FoS:IH

Yeah. I should agree with IH and WLC here. THAT was overreactive. All my other posts weren't. I only felt it was a little strange that someone with no posts until yesterday pointed me suddenly with no other reason than my eagerness to play... I think i got a little excited with how the game finally is going somewhere. People is talking and analyzing. Having fun here.

Some thoughts here:

1. Whats an OMGUS FoS?
2.

Why would scum go against the majority? Wouldn't they just go with it?

If and only if the interests of scum arent in danger.

3.

who do you consider protown? Why do you consider them protown?

I agree with Snailman8 here. WLC is as far our protown player. I was going to quote something from him, but all his post seem balanced and well thought.

My opinion about Snailman8 has changed a little. He seems a very interested townie. On the other hand, this may be his strategy. Also, I dont like his attitude at the beginning of the game.

The Fonz has dissapeared. I still have my vote on him but this could change when he comes back and gives a general view of how the game has gone without him.

Inferno and Xencobra are lost. Is it too early to look for replacemments?

[populartajo]

Yeah, the Fonz is posting everywhere but here. I think he is just a bored townie. Ill

unvote

.
As i read the other games, i found out that these games generally have a deadline. I suppose this is bad for town, isnt it?

[populartajo]

wow, i left for two days (i hate work) and i cant believe whats just going on here. People are talking!!

Some thoughts. (I'd really like to reread the thread over and over again with a little more time to stop the confusion in my head, but sorry i couldnt help it. Somehow the two ICs are drawing strange conclusions about me. )

1. Yeah, finally, Fonz is back and i mean it, He IS back. After i think 4-5 days of not posting at all he comes back with the perfect hate-post, the post I was waiting. Something told me to unvote him (i stated that he could be a bored townie) and now I think I couldnt be more confused. He's angry with all the town, but i cant blame him. I think we just put too much pressure in him. But in the other hand, he just doesnt stop being overdefensive and overreactive to all the things posted here about him. I mean, man chill out, it isnt good for ur health.

Gotcha. populartajo appears to know who the protown players are.

I mean, Fonz, dont u know who the protown players are? maybe an idea? it isnt too hard. I mean, you are the IC, you should already have an idea of who is protown and scum, shoudln't you?. Let me see. Random example.

Also, for good measure the way Snailman throws FOS' (Friend Of Scum) around and doesn't put his money where his mouth is also bugs me

If ir read well, you dont think Snailman8 is very protown at all, huh? get my point?

2.

mean seriously: does no-one think accusing me of OMGUS when voting a guy FOR THE MANNER IN WHICH HE UNVOTED ME, a vote that was random in the first place, is in any way OMGUS?

Snailman8 and you are my first suspects. You are not alone in this. I also think he has a really strange strange behavior. Also, he's trying somehow to be stragenly helpful with me.

3. IH : Although he doesnt stop discovering more and more things about my eager way of playing, i think he's by far our most protown player. I could be wrong, but somehow I think he is just like me : trying to find even the little thing to put some pressure.

I can't believe I missed this. This is burden of proof. It's in the logical fallacies section of the wiki. Look it up, I'm to lazy to link it atm. Maybe later.

Sorry, I dont understand. Care to elaborate?

Ok, Ill post more later.

[populartajo]

This page has right conzfuzzled me so far

Yeah, Elmo's decision was kinda unexpected. However, he has a solid point. What do the others ICs think about this? What does WLC have to say?

Now, answering some ancienne questios...

No. I don't. I have my suspicions, but I'm a very long way from knowing. If you wish to state as fact that X, Y, Z are pro-town, I'd expect at least an argument based on strong conviction, not to just drop it in there.

Ok. I am, of course, very log way from knowing it too. And everybody is. I mean, if we all

knew

who the scum and town players are, then this game wouldnt have sense. I guess we had a problem of miscomunication. I may not be wrong to assume that forum mafia sometimes has this problem.

That, I believe, was Weyoun and not Snailman making the 'omgus' argument. You then stated that I was wrong to argue that it wasn't an omgus vote and that it was an overreaction of me to ask how on earth my vote could possibly be omgus, on the spurious grounds that Weyoun said 'a bit of an omgus vote' rather than 'an omgus vote.'

Did I state that? When this happened, I didnt even know what was an OMGUS.

You claim to be into 'trying to find even the little thing to put some pressure.' When I do EXACTLY THAT, you vote for me, calling it an overreaction.

You werent doing this in the first posts. When you somehow changed your aprroach of the game, I started to think that you could be an agressive townie. Thats why I unvoted for you.

Fonz I'm also doing something specific with my last post.

I feel it necessary to point it out to the othe IC, before he ruins the awesome scumtell I found.

Nice strategy IH. Im waiting for your explanation.

Last but not least. I would like that Elmo gave his general opinion of all players here. Its kinda strange that he points a player for not being so communicative, posts a solid opinion, and then posts small tiny answers. I would like to hear more about you.

[populartajo]

tajo: What did you feel was wrong in the snail-fonz conversation?

Well, to be honest, there was nothing weird in the convesation. The bizarre thing is the context. I found a little strange that somehow these two persons (Snaiman8 and The Fonz) were trying to break a possible conection after the L-2 affair, which of course is even stranger. This of course could be a pre-planned strategy. I could be wrong but I think IH has a better idea as an IC.

Elmo, who do u think could be WLC partner?. This, of course, is assuming you still think that WLC is scum.

Also, Mod, can we have a replacement for Inferno?

[populartajo]

I half expected an FoS to come from fonz, because usually secret scumtells can be scummy (trying to get someone to lay out a case, or say "Thats exactly what I saw!")

If you thought it was scummy, then why did you do it? There are two possibilities here:

a) You are town and you really really want to help us even though you thought someone as experienced (as the Fonz) would have pointed your behavior as a scummy one. And even though this fact could have taken you to to a dificult position.

or

b)You are scum and you are trying to confuse people like me that really has no idea of what are you trying to achieve with your mind games. I must supposse that taking in count this is newbie land, it sometimes works with the inexperienced ones, but as you state above, it hasn't worked. This of course could have ended in a townie who somehow gave you something suspicious to destroy him.

I'm really confused with your behavior IH. I feel kinda bad to put you in this situation becuase in the last two pages you were really leaning pro-town, but there is something in your thinking process that I dont like.

FoS:IH

[populartajo]

I just read Snailman8's post and I feel good that I wasn't analysing this IH affair too much. I would really like to hear Elmo's and WLC's opinions and of course, what IH has to say about this.

[populartajo]

So because something can be interpreted as scummy, do you think I'm scummy for doing it anyways to get some more discussion going?

I think that although generating discusion is a good thing, we strictly didn't need one at that moment. And one that relly confused me with what you were trying to achieve. It was not the answer I was waiting, so I feel comfortable doing this.

Vote : IH

[populartajo]

Yeah, I dont like Snailman8's attitude at all. He's still one of my first suspects but let's analyse his posts.

yup, his scum buddy wont hammer him

I dont like this. If you are town and somehow IH is town, practically the game is over. You see, I dont like IH either, but I agree with Elmo here. Two votes are enough. They put some pressure but we can be sure nothing is going out of control

]I noticed. Honestly, both of the votes seem stretched to me.

Tajo.

These arent the post we need, Flameaxe. Is it too much to ask you for a general opinion of each player? Also I would like that every time u point a player (in this case, me) u gave us a justification. Is it Ok?

Notice how Snailman waits for Tajo to vote.

I saw this coming after Snailman8 vote. As I stated above, I dont like what hes trying to do. If hes scum, he just showed us another of his strange posts. However, if hes town, he basically just made a mistake and gave IH the perfect oportunity to change town's attention. You are still on my list, IH.

[populartajo]

Why the wait. If we can have another point of wiew, its good for town, isnt it? We have so far three L-2. Dont u think we are confused enough?
Also, dont be rude the next time u answer.

[populartajo]

Ugh, looks like someone didnt go to etiquette shool this summer. Nevermind. Again, then, why the wait? Sorry, at this momento I'm confused enough with

almost

all the players here, and I dont carry all the experience you seem to have.

I'm not confused, I honestly don't see why you guys are. This is probably one of the more simple rereads I've done.

Probably because this

is

a newbie game and my first game too?
Seriously, dude. If you really want to help us, share ur opinions, or at least, your experience for future games. Thx in advance.[/quote]

[populartajo]

Why is his tactic scummy, please?

Glad you are still here, Fonz. What do you think of the gamestate now that you are back?

[populartajo]

Considering you voted for IH first, I feel you also need to be answering this question. Do so.

I think u need to read all my posts after my IH vote and before this one, but ok, just because I have some time Ill try a recap.

In not special order:

WeyounsLastClone : This guy is strange. His last post tells me that hes not afraid of answering (or at least, evading) old questions, when scum would have proably changed the subject. However, I dont like post 115. He seems to look for an inexistent mistake. Rating : 6 out of 10, where 10 is scum.

IH : Well, this might add some spice to the Snailman8/Tajo theory but I really dont like what IH is doing. He doesnt defend himself, he just tries to blame whoever makes the first mistake. I also consider the "I found a big scumtell" tactic a little bit strange because it is just trying to confuse town. Maybe, looking for someone inexperienced, a possible mistake and the start of a "distractive" bandwagon. Rating : 7 out of 10, where 10 is scum.

Snailman8 : If IH is town, then Snailman8 is scum, simply enough. I dont like the "kill me tomorrow if u dont believe me". If you are town, I can see what are you trying to achieve, but I think u made a mistake. Its kinda strange that somehow scum hasnt taken advantage of this affair. Rating : 6 out of 10, where 10 is scum.

Elmo : kinda agressive player but I have the feeling hes helping us. He answers all the questions and gives solid opinions. Rating : 2 out of 10, where 10 is scum.

Flameaxe : I seriously dont like this guy. His antecesor didnt contribute at all and hes not contributing, either. Im only asking for a general opinion of each player, 1-2 lignes, not just phrases pointing players without backup. Rating : 6 out of 10 where 10 is scum.

Fonz : Athough at the beginning I didnt like him, he has somehow migrated to my town list. I might not need more posts to really describe his personality, but as an agressive townie he seems to be a good helper. Rating : 3 out of 10, where 10 is scum.

I still have problems trying to describe what exactly an OMGUS vote is. Taking in count all this WLC affair. Ayone?

[populartajo]

So, basically we had a L-3 on Snaliman8. As Elmo stated I dont think Sanilman8 has done anything

that

scummy to put him at L-3. IH, I think you have a lot of explications to think.

My vote isn't the one that put him on L-1. I wanted to keep Snailman that way a little while to keep the pressure on and see if someone slips up. So I'll unvote Snailman, and going to vote you. Call it OMGUS if you want, but I think you have too big an influence on town right now, and I've seen in other games where the player questioning everybody and acted overly consistent was scum, and I'm getting exactly that same feeling with you.

I dont like this. a) There is nothing good with putting someone at L-3 just to put some pressure or to see if someone slips, especially when we dont want things to get our of control. b)Its not only an OMGUS vote, its trying to divide the opinions so far posted here.

FoS: WeyounsLastClone

[populartajo]

I have a question. What are the possibilities of winning if we lynch wrong today. I ask this because although I don't know exactly who is scum yet, I might know it after night 1. (taking in count scum doesnt kill me)

As I stated before: If IH is town, then Snailman8 is scum, and viceversa. The possibility of both of them being town is also probable but less possible taking in count that this IH-Snailman8 affair has turn out in a "if I'm scum and I somehow convince town to lynch you, I win" situation.

Both of them being scum is also remote. They don't seem conected at all and both want the other dead.

BTW, Thx WLC for the info. That's the kind of posts we need.

So, basically we had a L-3 on Snaliman8. As Elmo stated I dont think Sanilman8 has done anything that scummy to put him at L-3. IH, I think you have a lot of explications to think.

Dumb me. Ill remember next time. L-1. L-1. L-1. Thx.

[populartajo]

Sadly, the game is going nowhere. Some thoughts...

1. Flameaxe if u had a lot of things to do then why the hell did u apply for a replacement?
2. IH has dissapeared as well. I dont get this, maybe hes trying to wait until someone grabs scummy attention.
3. Fonz, Snail, WLC and Elmo have lately showed their interest and I think, that if somehow Flameaxe isnt a lurking scum, probably only one of this four is scum.
4. I have a question for all of you : what's your favorite role : town or mafia?

[populartajo]

[quote="Snailman8]Im just looking at anything that could be linkage. It could quite easily be nothing. [/quote]

im confused about Flameaxe attitude.

a) I could be wrong but for me, one post out of two or three showing a possible link with IH is just too obvious.

b) I insist, I could be wrong because although it would be too obvious, the way Flameaxe tries to shift the attention is bugging me at the same time.

c) I really dont like your excuses Flameaxe. If they are real, then the best thing you could do i ask for a replacement.

I know I have also been guilty of defending players this game too. If you did that kind of stric analysis on me you could probably link me to about three other players..

[/quote]

Right there. Thats why point a) above is still on my mind.

[populartajo]

I don't agree with your IH case, is that so wrong? Call it shifting attention all you want, my opinion on the case stays the same.

Look whos back. Ok, Flameaxe I wanna know why dont u agree with my IH case. Two, three lignes will be enogh. Lurking time, again?

[populartajo]

Well, its a shame IH is still sick. We need one or two more of his posts (with content obv) to really define his position after all that has been put here against him.

Flameaxe, although u somehow managed to give a opinion, Im asking for a little more of contribution. I do remember somenone posting : "Well, this is easy, I cant believe u havent seen it yet"

Fonz is back with an informative post. I couldnt disagree with you more. IH's scummy smell goes far away than the famous "I found a great scumtell" As Elmo states, its his reaction that makes me wonder. Even though Snailman8 actions can fall under the scum radar, there wasnt a big reason to put him at L-1. Also, I just realized something. It may not be important, but this vote happens after Snailman8 states that hes not going to be able to post within the next 48 hours. Maybe IH tries to get a quick lynch feeling that Snail wouldnt be back at time. As I said before, this may be something silly but it just called my attention.

Tajo, when you did your little list with the numbers, you had three guys on six and one on seven. I personally don't understand how you can have half the game as more likely than not scum. Has anything changed to separate these guys, in your view?

Ill try a new list as soon as posible. Trying to summarize, IH is still a 7, Snail is 6, Flameaxe is now 7, Elmo is 3, WLC is 5, and be prepared, Fonz is now 6. (Where 1 is town and 10 is scum)

Ill give u a little explanation before u ask for one. Basically, I dont like how u r trying to shift attention in a subtle way. Also, after all the OMGUS discussion, u have just posted to give general opinions, IMHO in a semilurking state. The only recent post where u have crossed the "too much involvement in the game" line is used to subtly defend IH. Coincidence? I might be wrong but again,

FoS=The Fonz

. This might be removed if u explain what do u think about IHs posts after the "L-1" on Snail.

[populartajo]

I will be absent for 1-2 days. Lets hope IH gets better and Flameaxe realizes hes not helping town. Anyone can dream, huh?.....

.....(Yeah, Flameaxe, I will keep dreaming) Eveybody, Take care.

[populartajo]

Im glad IH is back in town. Sadly, I cant say the same about my friend Flameaxe. Time will tell.

Yeah, Elmo. Thats L-1. Seriously, I think IH is the most suspicious player right now (thats why Ill keep my vote on him) but Im not sure if our semilurking players (Fonz, WLC, Flameaxe) agree with the rest. Of all three, I d like to hear Fonz's opinion the most. As an IC player he definitely has to have some thoughts about this, right? That doesnt mean I wont read WLC and Flameaxe opinions, but Im seriously waiting for Fonz's experience to be shared in this delicate moment.

[populartajo]

As I stated before: If IH is town, then Snailman8 is scum, and viceversa. The possibility of both of them being town is also probable but less possible taking in count that this IH-Snailman8 affair has turn out in a "if I'm scum and I somehow convince town to lynch you, I win" situation.

Silly false dillemma

I totally forgot.
Whats exactly a false dilemma?
I honestly think I was using a little bit of logic in that paragraph

[populartajo]

Damn!!... These last four posts dont make sense at all.

In chronological order:

Flameaxe needs to come with some input soon. Unvote. Vote Flameaxe.

Why, oh why do you avoid IH's L-1 situation? Why arent u voting him if ur top suspects were Snailman8 and IH?

GOOD PLAY! GOOD PLAY! THATS IT, BUS ME MORE! GO GO GO!

Lately, Ive been thinking you are just an angry townie kinda ala Fonz at the beginning of the game. But then I dont understand why are you being so anti-town? Maybe beacuse u entered the game when IH situation was a little out of control? If u come up town, then u shouldnt be playing mafia.

Erm... be with you shortly guys. Still don't understand the IH wagon.

We definitely need ur opinion, man. We definitley need to know exactly why u dont understad the IH wagon. You really need to have a strong point or a better suspect for not voting IH.

Yea, it's IH and Flameaxe.

I think this post and my current agreement are based in the following fact: Flameaxe antitown attitude would have already hammered IH.

However, Im slightly confused. I see scummy actions everywhere. I see them in WLC and Fonz.(read above) Even in Elmo's opinions without suport. Townies, this is the time for being townie! Post, support.

Damn!!

[populartajo]

Dude, chill out, its just a game!
WHy is he asking a replacement? I believe he thought this was one of the easiest games ever.

[populartajo]

First of all, I love long posts. Specially from people who werent contributing at all.

Failing at reading there. Please post something more useful.

The replacement was for a personal reason that ended up not being as big of an issue as I intended.

Ok, Ill post something more useful... Wait, OMG, I cant believe YOU are suggesting ME to post something more useful. Wait again, did u write more than three lignes in a single post? Thats crazy dude, how did u do it?

Seriously, why my dear Flameaxe, why did u post more than the usual NOW? Sure, Snailman8 has done a lot of scummy things but why now? You could have done this with a lot of posts the day u entered the game. Frankly it seems to me u were expecting the best opportunity to jump into someone and make him look suspicious.

But, then, Fonz, why are u supporting him? I repeat, Snailman8's long post was indeed kinda strange with a lot of valid and invalid points, but Ill have to give him credit for not being scared of posting something like that. (We get lurking people to contribute. How strange is that?) The thing that bugs me is your reaction to this. I can apply to your case the same logic above.

So, youll probably be thinking why do I defend Snailman8? Well, Im a newbie. I suppose hes one too. We dont seem to share the IC gamestyle. (Lurk, jump into something suspicious, lurk, wait for someone to make a mistake, lurk, etc, etc) He thinks something is wrong. He posts it. Thats why, although, hes under the scum radar, I have the strange feeling hes just scumhunting. Of course, if u were mafia, u would be scared to post something like that.

And then, as I repeated many times. If we lynch wrong today, then my first suspect in D-2 will be Snailman8. Simply enough.

Until The Fonz gives a solid argument why he shouldnt be considered scum and just an agrresive townie, ill keep my vote on him.

Would someone tell me why is this a HUGE scumtell? Three ICs have stated this. One after I posted it, million years ago, the other two in this last page. Kinda strange, huh? Im going crazy if someone doesnt explain it to me. My logic here was "Well, I think Fonz agressiveness might be scummy, lets post this and keep the vote so he can explain himself" Scummy enough?

So far, this game has gained again my interest. What a dramatic L-1 situation here. BTW, IH where are u?

[populartajo]

Wow, Flameaxe two long posts in less than 24 hours. The end of the world must be near.

Again, please meta better. This isn't uncommon play from me whatsoever.

I seriously dont believe in meta after finding out what it means. You could always try nex strategies. In fact, Im starting to think using the IC style for my next game. Yes, the IC style, more of this later.

Mind if I ask you something? I start to contribute, and because of that, I'm being scummy?

You get nothing and like it... Just kidding. You oblviously didnt read my post very well. What I was trying to say was that you are not being scummy for the fact that u start to contribute, you are being it simply for the fact that u could have done this a million years ago. Especially after reading this:

Uhm, what? I've been suspicious of snail since he pulled the shit however many pages ago

Then why didnt u give town these new long posts at

that

moment.? Lazyness? Waiting for the best moment and reason to jump into someone? This, to me, smells bad.

Him 'not being scared' to post it shouldn't hide the fact those invalid points and overall bullshit. I don't understand why you feel the need to ignore everything Snailman does, and why you have done it for most of this game. Fonz has every right to go after his case, just as everyone does.

Oh, God, read my post. Im not ignoring him at all. Hes still high in my scum rating, remember? The thing is that now, in my opinion, there's more possibility of finding scum in a player who suddenly tries to shift the attention and in one thats lurking too much for my taste.

Crap logic, with a slight side of WIFOM. Very smooth. Also, there is no 'IC gamestyle' that you speak of. After you play for a while, you start to develop your way of playing. Everyone is different, there is no set 'IC style'.

So far, all the ICs here prove my point. There's indeed a tendency in all u, mafia or town. U seem to answer to other people's opinions (usually newbies) rather than creating new ideas for debate.

I see some crazy over-reacting from you here, and am happy with my vote now.

If u think Snailman is scum then why dont u vote for him?

[populartajo]

God, Flameaxe, U just gave me a good big laugh. I love when people like U gets annoyed.

Point 2, I've given my opinion of Snail long ago. Try reading, buddy. As for the waiting for the best moment 'case', it simply doesn't apply. If you actually read shit higher than a 4th grade reading level, you would know that everything I commented on from Snail DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN. So sorry that you didn't realize this sooner. How exactly does that apply to right now, in your opinion?

Obviously, I read better than U. I knew that U thought Snailman8 was scummy since Ur first posts. The thing that strikes me is that U somehow changed Ur approach of the game with his (and my) last posts. This doesnt seem right. Why did U change Ur gamestyle now, even when U thought Snailman8 was scummy since the beginning?

That wasn't my point, at all. My point was that you are letting all of the bullshit in his case slip by with the excuse of 'at least he wasn't scared to post it'. That in itself, is more bullshit. Also, I'm sorry from 'trying to shift attention' away from IH, but the point is: most of snails case is full of bullshit and hypocrisy.

I agree his last post was filled with some BS, but he had some valid points as well. Think about it, if U were scum would U post something like that?

This seems like debate to me. Also something else: most of your reasoning to pressure IH right now, is that he pointed out and decided to share 'new ideas' (aka his scumtells he pointed out) and it caused...DEBATE! Whoa!

Again, U didnt read that well, pal. IH didnt share any new ideas. He tried a trap. It didnt work. I saw this as scummy. I simply put a vote to pressure him so he could explain himself. Then all happened. Snailman8's second vote and posterior posts were suspicious but IH reactions were even more.

Also, 'U' is not a word. English is advised in any games you play with me in the future. Keep that in mind.

Well, If U, (yes U) plan to answer this post and posterior ones in future games, U'll need to read all my posts a few times, with every little U inside.

BTW, Ill stop responding everything U post. I have the feeling this is exactly what U want, "trying to shift town's attention". So, Im not playing Ur game, dude. Lets hear what other gamers have to say, especially you, IH. WLC and Fonz, I havent heard of you in a while. You are lurking too much for my taste.

Can we have a Mod Prod on IH, WLC, and Fonz?

Now, IM DONE.

[populartajo]

Why would I need a prod within 24 hrs of my last post?

Because I had the feeling u werent going to post somehting useful (taking in count all the input after ur post). Guess I wasnt that wrong.

Nahh, Just kidding there Fonz. I seriously forgot u posted in that morning. My bad. BTW, do u have an opinion of the other players?

And, please, Can we have a Mod Prod on IH?

[populartajo]

See, Fonz? Thats what town gets when u post frequently. An interesting (and obv different) read of your own.

Thing is, apart from me and Flameaxe, there's no-one who strikes me as a possible buddy. And from my perspective, someone who could only possibly be scum with one other player is a bad move. IH's play appears to be consistent with genuine scumhunting.

Why is it a bad move? Im assuming u are thinking here Flameaxe is a possible buddy. In general, what do u think of him?

I agree. I wouldn't do that, but I also do think that it's scummy, and his (lack of) responses do nothing to change my mind

I agree wit u, Elmo. Can I PM the Mod for this situation?

[populartajo]

My bad again. Thats what happens when Im drunk and I post with my other account.

[populartajo]

Its ur personal opinion. I find them funny. As a newbie I cant be in more than a game, so when this game is boring I get fun in the other. Now, into the game?

[populartajo]

Call it whatever u want. I dont care. Its not relevant to the game.

[populartajo]

Well, if I write something defending Snailman8 then mafia will jump on me as quickly as they will be able to. I just want to state this:

Weyouns Last Clone, If u r not sure about Snailman, then why did u put him at L-1? Am I the only one finding his reasons extremely flawed and suspicious?

Well, something good for town has to come of this new L-1 situation. Maybe IH will come back. Who will hammer : Fonz, Flameaxe?

[populartajo]

BTW, Mod, did IH pick his prodding?

[populartajo]

Ok, back again with more info. This game is not going anywhere. Even now we have two L-1.

I'm not moving my vote. Why? Because I find Tajo more scummy than you at the currently point in time.

Interesting. Why isnt he voting for his other suspect (besides me)?

a)Townie trying to gather more information.?
b)Scum too worried about D-2?
c)Am I more scummy than him? Really? What's so scummy in me?
d) Im sure there are a lot of other possiblities (probably Flameaxe will respond with some)

As for Flameaxe- I can't read him. He does seem a little more rational than normal. He doesn't leap out as scummy to me, and his style is one upon which opportunists often jump.

I dont agree. Townies could jump in his behaviour as an anti-town attitude. Scums and antitowns players are bad for town. I mean, he wasnt contributing. Thtas antitown IMO. What did he expect? That we somehow catched his gamestyle when the first thing he did was trying to subtly defend IH before avoiding our questions?

I seriously see Flameaxe using this gamestyle as scum trying to get an eager newbie and then call him an oportunist and putting all suspicions in him. Its funny and ironic that IH kinda tried this pages ago and he's at L-1 today.

FoS again : Flameaxe

BTW, Mod, did IH pick his prodding?

[populartajo]

I don't see why I shouldn't have voted for Snailman. I don't find Flameaxe really suspicious anymore, so my vote wasn't in the right place anymore. At this point in the game, I don't think it's good for votes to go to waste. And Snailman together with IH are my main suspects. At this point I'm not certain enough to lynch either of them, so I voted for Snailman. In such a situation scum might slip up, or if someone goed for an obvious quick lynch, we have very useful information.

Theres something I dont like about this post. In the meanwhile, Ill say I dont see Snailman8 and IH(now Elias) as possible scumpartners. They badly want(ed) each other dead.

hey guys, im replacing IH. I think I can be caught up by tomorrow night.

It was time, Mod! Thank you very much. Elias, have fun reading all the thread. Welcome aboard! Your sig made me laugh.

I havent heard a lot from Elmo lately. It would suck to ask for another replacement. Excuse me,

Mod Prod=Elmo?

[populartajo]

So, if its a null tell, there was no reason to put Snailman at L-1. rite?
Glad my stupidity brought up an unusual situation.

[populartajo]

Ill wait until you finish reading the thread and give us a solid opinion of all players here.

I dont see anything particularly odd out of IH thus far

Probably beacuse

you

are his replacement.

[populartajo]

First off, I want to give some totally out of context props to Flameaxe for being able to troll a player while stilll making quality relevant posts. By this, I refer to his long discussion with Tajo, and I would definately say that Flame came out of that as the winner.

Again, whats the point in bringing irrelevant things to the discussion? I dont care If I won or if he did. This of course has to have some correlation with the fact Im voting u and Flameaxe isnt.

Ok, back to more relevant things. So far, I really haven't seen any reason for me to be at L-2. IH hasnt done anything particularly scummy in my opinion. His trap failed, but that doesnt inherantly make it a scummy trap. Anyways, I've had personal experience with IH's playstyle before. The way he usually plays is to formulate traps and gambits to work out sincere reactions. He then uses these to discover people's motivations, and thus, their alignments.

What does it differentiate from IC scum trying to get suspicious reactions (especially from newbie townies) so that he can develop his strategy from them?

From what I've seen, his biggest fault is when his plans go awry and the town starts to suspect him for it, as he is not the greatest at defending himself.

I think his plan didnt work because it would have done it perfectly in a silly newbie environment. And yes u r right. I suspected him even more for the simple fact that he didnt defend himself very well. Thats why although my first vote was just a "I find ur recent action scummy so lets wait for ur defense" vote, my perseverance on him was because he didnt support his action properly.

He even posted something like this:

I half expected an FoS to come from fonz, because usually secret scumtells can be scummy (trying to get someone to lay out a case, or say "Thats exactly what I saw!")

Then, he put Snailman8 at L-1. I really can understand his reasoning. Snailman8's actions were indeed scummy, but why in hell did he put at L-1? This is the breaking point for me. This is where I started considering Snailman8 as an eager newbie townie (somehow I feel identified with his gamestyle) and IH a calculating IC scum.

Of course, I could be wrong. And Snailman8 might be scum just trying to agree with me to get my support. And IH's trap and L-1 could have been sincerely protown. But I doubt it. Theres something in both of their gamestates reactions that makes me feel good about my current reasoning.

On to Flameaxe. I can once again support a player for meta reasons. Though I dont have any completed games with Flame, I've seen his playstyle in action indirectly (reading other games). While annoying, there's one thing you can say for Flames style: its consistent. I dont think he's scum, but I dont think he's town either. I think, based on what I've seen in the past and today, that Flame is unreadable for now.

1. Again, I dont believe in meta.
2. I can see he's consistent. But mafia isnt?
3. I agree he's unreadable, but what role feels more comfortable in this state? An unreadable scum or an unreadable town?

There's not much for me to say about Fonz. I completely agree with his opinions on overdefensiveness, as I am always defensive as town, and so I worked it into my scum play, and now it is an integral part of my playstyle. Overdefensiveness is only a scumtell for certain players who have been oblivious to the usefulness of playstyles. But yeah, pretty certain Fonz is town.

U see, Fonz is too strange for me. He sometimes seems protown, others kinda scummy. I've suspected him without success. He's probably my hardest reading in the game. Neutral, I guess.

WLC: It's been hard for me to get a read on WLC, as he seems all over the place. His opinions coincide with me a lot of the time, then suddenly I come by a post of his that I completely disagree with (such as finding Tajo the most protown player). For now I'll consider him
neutral.

I consider WLC scummier than Fonz. The reason? He put Snailman8 at L-1 with an extremely weak argument. After a reread of his posts, I can see which were the reasons for Elmo to enter the game with a WLC vote. This guy is somehow (in Elmo's words) allergic to express his opinions. And when he does, he backs them up with such weak reasons.
An strange fact however, is that u (and Flameaxe in a lesser way) haven't said anything at respect.

Ok, now Elmo. When Elmo first starts making relevant posts, I thought of him as protown. Though he has made some bad posts of late. Like, I really don't see the case for IH. At all. Seems a little bit off. Also, he's made a couple of odd votes.

Elmo is kinda neutral too, slightly protown. Im going to quote something I posted about him when he entered the game:

Elmo : kinda agressive player but I have the feeling hes helping us. He answers all the questions and gives solid opinions.

Can u quote that bad post and votes u refer?

Populartajo. Also, WLC touches on a good point early on, in that tajo had been seeming kind of like an overeager newbie townie, but as the game wore on, he revealed that he had a pretty good idea of how the game worked. This made me think the eager noobness was an act. Though I'm not one to trust gut. I find the fact that WLC defended him to be really odd, and if tajo is scum, WLC is probably his buddy.

Well, I learn fast. Im still an eager newbie. I make a lot of mistakes, mistakes that scum likes to stand out. One thing, if u considered my eager noobness a faked act and that I revealed that I had a pretty good idea of how the game worked, then why do u posted something like this:?

Now here's been a fun read. I like the way that Tajo goes about this game in a really arrogant manner, despite the fact that he's been wrong in most aspects of it.

Also, why are u suspecting WLC with such a weak reason?

Finally, Snailman. I havent liked snailman all game. His opinions have really clashed with mine, though I cant really think of any particular examples right now (Ill get them sometime this week), besides his case on me, which both of the other IC's promptly shot down (with good reason). Also, his jump on my wagon was scummy, and his "lynch me day 2" thing.

Of course u r not going to like him if he's ur principal attacker. And I think theres something I read in the wiki called "Appeal to Authority". And yes, his jump and his "lynch me day 2" are scummy as hell, but the thing is that I found u scummier than him.

So, my vote stands where it is. Waiting for ur response.

[populartajo]

The point of bringing irrelevent things to the discussion is to preserve a sense of this being a game. I noticed something funny and noted it. Also, the correlation between the two voting anomalies is that Flame, as an IC, recognized that the case on me is crap. Dont believe me? Well look back. Fonz agreed too. Are you going to accuse us all of being scum?

Glad something irrelevant brought up such a weak argument. Appeal to Authority. Its indeed worse than it seems because there’s the probability of one of them being ur scumpartner.

So basically, I guess the main case against me are two things: the "plan", and the -1 vote. So. I'll address those officially.

Ok, this will make my life easier.

Regarding the "plan":
This is completely a null tell. IH has done this exact gambit as town and scum. He even provided a link in his defense where a townie in a completed game made the same exact gambit. This really proves that its a null tell, as it is inherantly something that townies may do for the benefit of the town, and thus something scum can do to blend in.

Yeah sure, he would post a link where he used this strategy as scum. This only proves that IH didn't consider his trap a null tell. Or even worse, he wanted us to think that it was a town tell.

THERES NO WAY TO TELL WHICH IS HAPPENING WHEN A PLAYER DOES IT. Therefore, its not a scumtell. As for the admittal of guilt thing, OMG HE TOLD THE TRUTH!!! The whole point of this gambit is that secret scumtells are scummy, and by saying you have one, you get sincere reactions from people. Again, it is more protown to admit it then to claim that what he did wasnt scummy.

IH had to admit it becuase HIS TRAP DIDNT WORK. He had to quickly justify his "scummy" action because as he states, the other IC could have jumped in his case. However, none of the four here : Fonz, you (Elias), Flameaxe and Elmo (both in a lesser extent) seem to have problems with the trap itself (basically agreeing that it’s a null tell)

So the point here is why did he have to justify his trap so quickly? The most possible explanation is because he

knew

that he was doing something scummy.

I don’t even want to imagine what would have happened if his trap had worked in the most possible wrong way (catching a newbie townie). If u read the post where I FOS IH, I clearly state that the fact this trap gave IH the possibility of being in control of a possible reaction is slightly suspicious. Ok, Ill post it because “not quoting something I already said and u should have already read” is scummy for u.

If you thought it was scummy, then why did you do it? There are two possibilities here:

a) You are town and you really really want to help us even though you thought someone as experienced (as the Fonz) would have pointed your behavior as a scummy one. And even though this fact could have taken you to to a dificult position.
or
b)You are scum and you are trying to confuse people like me that really has no idea of what are you trying to achieve with your mind games. I must supposse that taking in count this is newbie land, it sometimes works with the inexperienced ones, but as you state above, it hasn't worked. This of course could have ended in a townie who somehow gave you something suspicious to destroy him.

That’s why IMO his trap is scummy.

Regarding the -1:
Ok, this is simple. -1 is something that scum would like you to think is always scummy. This is not true. -1 is only scummy when its very early in the day, and thus premature. The discussion here had been going on a long time, and IH seemed to really think he was scummy. Thus its not a scummy -1 vote. If you dont think IH's reasons were strong enough, thats still not a scumtell, as people will always have differing opinions on how strong scumtells are. So there goes the second half of your case.

I think his reasons weren't strong enough = I think his reasons were weak. An -1 vote with weak reasons seems scummy to me. Thats why I suspected WLC who could be now laughing at our faces. The thing is that this -1 vote doesn’t compare to other -1 votes here in the game. It was the first -1 vote with weak reasons, although I do believe Elmo’s reasons were indeed less suspicious for the simple fact they are consequences of the previous ones.

So, u r voting for Elmo. Even though, your favourite IC (Fonz) hasn’t suspected him in all the game and to my eyes he’s perfectly townie. I can see u being suspicious of me and Snailman8, but Elmo? Come on. Following ur case, the only scummy things he has done is the L-1 on IH and now on U, and now not quoting what he has already posted.

And just cut the aggression. It makes me think that u cant find another way to make ur arguments believable.

BTW, I cant believe Fonz, WLC cant have an opinion of this situation. I hate doing this but someone has to.

Mod Prod : WLC, Fonz?

[populartajo]

Ok, Back from holidays.

Town is really quiet these days after some interesting defense from IH's replacement, Elias. I understand that it could be due to the holidays but the only ones relaxing with this lack of posting are scums.

So, instead of responding of what others say, imply, quote, etc, its time for general analysis Nº3, I guess. I might have some interesting information.

But, before, Irrelevant post time :

Why do you have to post with bad manners to get your point across? It's completely unnecessary. It just struck me as extremely odd that Elias told us he's good at defending himself, and then starts with caps and scolding at people.

GET THE FUCK OVER IT YOU DUMBASS
The fact people dont live in your perfect world where no one swears or says a bad word about anyone is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the game.

I kinda agree in this problem with WLC, as u all may notice in some previous posts. It's not COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. IMO, this is a game, u r supposed to have gamestyles and such, but what's the point in cursing to reinforce ur ideas if u already think they're good enough? I don't live in a perfect world, i curse every day, life is crap, but people, this is a game. Reinforcing ideas with insults, (CAPS is ok) is an easy way to get emotional asnwers and an easy way to get into a personal argument possibly avoiding the most important part of this game : a sincere analysis. There are a lot of ways for being agressive and I sincerely think cursing is not an option.

Ok, into the analysis.

Elias : Interesting defense. I must admit it has had some effect in my reasoning process. I still think IH's trap is scummy for the simple fact that nobody has answered this question;:

I don’t even want to imagine what would have happened if his trap had worked in the most possible wrong way (catching a newbie townie).

Fonz : I can't stop suspecting this guy for the fact that he just spends his time watching the thread and posting without content. I'll wait for his analysis in the Elmo's case. Slightly suspicious.

Elmo : I don't really see how this guy can be scummy for the fact he didn't quote his ideas. It's hard to read him becuase since the beginning he started to post just small answers. Its probably his style. Hos suspicious is the fact that he could have agreed with what just was said about IH at that moment to put him at L-1? However, if he's lying and not posting soon enough with some answers he could be in trouble.

Snailman8 : Im starting to feel Snailman8 can be more suspicious than I had already thought, Its probably the effect of Elias defense and my reasoning that if Elias isn't scum there's a big possibility Snailman8 is. He has done a lot of scummy thing but I like his style though : impatient eager newbie and I kinda feel identified with it. It might be, however, his strategy to gain my support. I dunno. This game is really confusing.

WLC : I'm starting to think WLC is just a townie with some weird ideas about this game and his concept of scummyness. His L-1 in Snailman8 is indeed scummy but What do the IC band think? Fonz has already one vote on him. Is he suspicious? Is it sillyness?

Flameaxe : He doesn't change his approach of the game. He's like Fonz that only posts when we don't share his ideas with the only difference that he really is defending Elias. It's OK, because they both could be townies, but again, they could be our scumpair.

General thpught:

If you are town and have some time, post something like this. It's just what I ask. There are only 2 scums in this game. We're five. Information, posts, is what we need.

[populartajo]

Is it so hard to make a list with your opinions about other players?

All I can say is Elmo's drift on the subject of Weyoun screams early bus to me.

Now that I think about it, it's a possibility. However, I don't know yet if WeyounLastClone is just newbie town or silly scum.

Elias : Interesting defense. I must admit it has had some effect in my reasoning process. I still think IH's trap is scummy for the simple fact that nobody has answered this question;:
I don’t even want to imagine what would have happened if his trap had worked in the most possible wrong way (catching a newbie townie).

er, thats not really a question, firstly. Secondly, the trap isnt really "working" if he "catches a noobie town". Also, I don't think it really would catch a noobie town, as the trap plays off of the tendencies that noobie scum have as being different from those of noob town.

I reformulate, then. What would have happened if the trap hadn't worked like IH (assuming he was town) wanted to? What would have happened if player "newbie townie" had reacted strangely enough

for

IH? Being in control of a determinate situation, reactions, etc is what just doesn't smell good to me.
And, again, I hate doing this and Im wondering if Jdodge does ever read this:

Mod Prod : Elmo

[populartajo]

Sorry for the double post , i just read what WLC just posted.

Snailman: his first day vote/unvote for The Fonz doesn't sit right with me still. He's also the one throwing around the most FOS'es, and seems to sway along sometimes, when he feels he can jump on another ones argument

I agree. However it just may be some eager townie behavior like mine. The difference is that he has indeed some scummy things in his back. I still can't take out of my mind the "lynch me day 2" argument.

populartajo: maybe I'm really wrong, but I think he's an experienced player, who created a newbie account, and wants to try to use the playstyle of a newbie. He talks about prodding already on page 2, but needs explanation on OMGUS (why would he know what prodding is, but not OMGUS?). And sentences like this: "I have a question. What are the possibilities of winning if we lynch wrong today." make feel a little bit suspicious towards him. Snailman and 'tajo also seem likely scumbuddies, because of how they're defending each other.

It's my first game. I indeed didn't know a lot of things when the game started but I found the wiki reading and the help here quite informative. Then, I believed I knew some abreviations, concepts, etc here, but the whole OMGUS situation between you and Fonz makes me think that one never knows exactly what something means.

IH: I don't like the trap he set up. Why claim to see a scumtell when there isn't one. It only brought confusion to each and everyone of us, which wasn't good for town in my opinion.

And that's another reason I still think his trap is at least antitownie.

Also, he warns of the danger of putting someone at L-1, but is the first one to do so himself.

This post and this kind of senteces makes me think that WLC may just be newbie townie.

[populartajo]

I'm sorry, but the fact that people are confused doesn't make it antitown. Unless you wish to assert that confused town respond in exactly the same way as confused scum.

I don't know. You never know how someone can react and scum can work its reaction according to the cirscunstances. Thats' why IMO, townies should avoid possible confusing situations. Confusion = town loses, scum wins. And, Fonz, why are you ignoring this?

I reformulate, then. What would have happened if the trap hadn't worked like IH (assuming he was town) wanted to? What would have happened if player "newbie townie" had reacted strangely enough for IH? Being in control of a determinate situation, reactions, etc is what just doesn't smell good to me.

What do you mean? Weyoun is far from a raw newbie. IIRC, he was already 'mafia scum' when this one began.

Don't you think he's a little newbie/silly for his general posts, ideas, suspicions?

[populartajo]

But the rationale behind the trap is that most townies would react in one way, and scum in another, newbie or not. This may be stating the obvious, but if newbies in general tend to respond to a situation in a certain way because they're newbies, rather than due to alignment, it's not a scumtrap- it's a newbie trap. The fact that none of the newbies in the game actually 'sprung' it indicates that it was not, in fact, that.

Again, you never know how someone is exactly going to react. And again, I assume scum would simply avoid this kind of traps.
So, assumig IH is town, the worst scenario (catching 1,2,3 or 4 townie(s) out of 4) is more possible than the best scenario (catching 1 or 2 scum(s) out of 2). And the odds icrease if IH is scum. What would have happened if a townie had fallen in his trap? I can't never know. But, there's indeed a tiny possibility of that townie being lynched or at least strongly suspected. And that's a situation townies should avoid : a possible confusion. I'm not saying IH is 100% scum. He indeed could be but what I want to state is that his trap isn't a null tell. It's at least, if not scummy, antitownie.

Analysing Snailman8 recent post:

Tajo: Esp recently all Im seeing is decent sencible discussion. I still totaly dissagree with the "hot-headedness is bad defence point"

I don't think it's a bad defense. It's totally unnecessary if your post is already well supported; and the only thing it seems to provoke is emotional reactions and endless debates, rather than sincere opinions.

Flameaxe: Nothing against his playstyle. I quite admire it. There is still something that doesnt sit right. Not enough to say much more than that.

This is a pretty different opinion from the one u had some pages ago where he was the most possible IH scumpartner. His gamestyle is the same you suspected too. What doesnt exactly sit right?

WLC: You made it to the top of my LOS. Congrats. I have to agree with Tajo. Your points do seem rather silly.

I agree his posts seem rather silly but why exactly is he on the top of your list? Sillyness isn't a scumtell.

TBH Im not at all sure who put pressure on. I could almost go with any of my four most scummy. I'm not sure enough with my WLC suspicions to risk putting a vote on him to only to see him mislynched in my absence and...I guess same goes with Elias.
The only thing Im really happy bout saying is Im pretty sure Fonz and Tajo town.
therefore Im going to do this
UNVOTE: Elias_the_thief

Why are you unvoting him him if you were so sure about him being scum when he was at L-1? (IIRC, to the point of lynching you D-2 if you were wrong?) Why is WLC now scummier than Elias/IH?
This smells really bad.

FoS : Snailman8

And Mod we need a Vote Count and Mod Prods : Elmo, Flameaxe. Please.

[populartajo]

After all these posts and that VC (Thanks, Mod), the only thing Im sure is that this town is really really confused.

Why do I have the feeling that no one reads my posts. Am I the only one thinking Snailman8 unvote after he being so sure about it is really suspicious?

And this Elmo/Fonz chat is kinda interesting. I still think Elmo's aprreciations at that point of the game were really protown, as Fonz seems to agree in some posts after. Again, in this game you nevwer know.

BTW, Hapyy new Year all. Ill try a reread after my hangover.

[populartajo]

I'm not confused...I think it's just you.

When you have 5 diferent people voting for 5 diferent players in a game, it's obvious it's just not me. And, I'd prefer 100 times being confused in my vote than being wrong. If you aren't confused, can u tell me right now who is scum and who is town?

I still think Elmo's aprreciations at that point of the game were really protown

How so?

His first post was quite interesting. It opened up a new debate : the WLC case. I think it's pretty townie to come up with something that wasn't so obvious for the rest of the town. Of course, this could be a good busing strategy, as Fonz state, but I still think Elmo-WLC is a pretty bad guess for scumpartners.
His following posts kept his gamestyle : short but concise. His reaction to the L-1 cast by IH is again townie. He was the only one to be in the IH bandwagon not for the trap but for his vote who put Snailman8 at L-1.
I'm not too sure about Elmo's L-1 vote, it's kinda suspicious, but IH did a really poor job at defending himself and was a pretty good candidate for a lynch. And Elias theory of Elmo not quoting his ideas, lying and preparing a bad debate it's not suspicious enough to put him in my LOS.
And your friend IH seemed to agree with what he was saying. IIRC, he even casted a second vote.

[populartajo]

Thats not confusion, its just being indecisive and everyone has their own views on each player. Also, you are scum, and your buddy is {Elmo, Snail, WLC}.

About the confusion debate, I think only mafia is 100% sure who is what. And you can't speak for others. When town can't decide something is because they're pretty confused with some people's behaviour.
As I said, I'd rather be confused than be wrong like you are in that assumption. Why are you so sure I'm scum? Post something, quote, don't just say X is scum without backup. It's coward.
And Flameaxe, reallly, if you're town, STOP being a sucker for everything Fonz and Elias say and and start having your OWN opinion.

[populartajo]

I was obviously talking about Elmo's soft bandwagon.

[populartajo]

Really? Read :

I still think Elmo's aprreciations at that point of the game were really protown

How so?

I was obviously talking about Elmo's

soft

bandwagon.

Also, you are scum, and your buddy is {Elmo, Snail, WLC}.

If you check all ur posts (easy task because there aren't many) u would realize u start suspecting Elmo after Fonz and Elias suspect him.

[populartajo]

I don't call saying someone else is scum, and listing Elmo as one of three potential scumbuddies, softwagoning Elmo. Let's paraphrase what Flameaxe said:

I think Populartajo is scum, and Fonz and Elias are town

How is this an attack on elmo in particular?

Because your quote is incomplete. And because it's a subtle one because Flameaxe never suspected Elmo before that post. Look, he did it again.

Two) Elias and Fonz brought up some good points against Elmo, and my gut hasn't liked him for a while. What's so wrong with that?

Becuase it's coward like you have been all the game.

Are you serious? You're saying that Elmo's -1 is ok because IH was a "good lynch candidate"? So just because other people thought he was scum, it was fine to place the -1?

I'm not too sure about Elmo's L-1 vote, it's kinda suspicious

It's indeed less supicious than IH's L-1.

Ridiculous. And I like how you call my attacks on Elmo a "theory". I'm not talking theory, this is what he's been doing. You think its a coincidence that he hasnt directly refuted my post?

It is theory. You can't be 100% sure of why he does that or that. Let's expect that big post he promised.
And, Snailman8 why did you unvote Elias if you were so sure about it?

[populartajo]

The more Tajo picks at straws, the more I like my vote, which I liked plenty before.

Do u have a guess on why you are the only one voting me?
Really, Flameaxe, what's the point of being so antitown if you say you aren't scum? You state that being antitown can benefit town if the player knows how to play it well, but guess what : your current vote is wrong. Why are you so agressive against me? What's the "OMG, he's so scummy" thing that I've done?

And I really have the feeling you started suspecting Elmo just becuase Elias and Fonz are suspecting him. Do you know something? : one or maybe the two could be scum. I don't know. You apparentyl don't know. If you're town start posting your OWN ideas, add some backup and we'll find out what and how you're thinking. But, if you're scum keep throwing the stone and hiding your hand, town will realize soon.

And again, what's the point of posting somethin like "Tajo is scum and his scumpartner is Elmo, Snail or WLC" without backup. Lazyness? Cowardice again? Scum Strategy?

Bah. I need more WLC right now. He just can't have an opinion, even a silly one. Holidays are over. I'm waiting for that Elmo's big post to find out if Elias is right about his case. And, Snail I'm waiting your answer.

[populartajo]

Yeah, Flameaxe. Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Every little thing I do, every little word I post is scummy for you. Please, stop that tunnel vision about me being scum and every other player in the thread (depending on Fonz and Elias opinion) being my scumpartner. I'll tell you once again : your current vote is wrong.

So, again, if you're townie, try to think outside the box just for a moment. You still haven't answered why I'm so scummy to you. Post something, even 2-3 phrases why I look scummy to you. I'll explain why I do/did that. Be townie.

BTW, where is everybody? What are your opinions of this Flameaxe-Tajo chat?

my feeling is that elmo never had that post, and is probably writing it now

Let's see what he can come up with.

[populartajo]

I was on Weyoun prior to Elmo. I actually suspect Elmo largely on connections to Weyoun. My main thing against Weyoun remains his turning on his erstwhile allies without a decent reason, really.

Wait a sec, who are/were his allies?

[populartajo]

So yeah. Elmo clearly had that post all ready to go.

Yep, I guess you were right. If he doens't come up with something "really" good soon he's in problems.
And Fonz is right when he states that his most possible scumpartner could be WLC. I don't know yet. Also, there's something I don't like in Snailman8's obligatory lurking.
And Fonz :

I was on Weyoun prior to Elmo. I actually suspect Elmo largely on connections to Weyoun. My main thing against Weyoun remains his turning on his erstwhile allies without a decent reason, really.

Wait a sec, who are/were his allies?

Mod, Please, We need a Prod : Elmo. And a new VC because I checked the last one and I had problems finding the exact point where Elmo unvoted IH/Elias

[populartajo]

Sorry for the double post.

Mod, Please, We need a Prod : Elmo and

WeyounsLastClone.

And a new VC because I checked the last one and I had problems finding the exact point where Elmo unvoted IH/Elias

And something else I forgot. Elias what about that LOS u promised?

[populartajo]

As I PM'd JD, I'm upgrading my computer, and will have limited access for the next week-ish. Hopefully less...

Why is everyone going?

ugh. can we lynch elmoscum yet?

Easy, boy. Not yet. He deserves a last post. I remember someone asking for the same thing some time ago.
Fonz, WLC where the hell are you?
Elias, what would you think if Elmo comes up town?

[populartajo]

So, this game has pretty much gone dead. Its all fine and good to give Elmo his final post, but he clearly never had that large post on me, and I think its pretty clear hes scum. I'm also pretty sure hes not any sort of power role, as he would probably be fighting harder to stay alive. I really think we should just lynch him

Yep, its kinda sad. Hooray for double accounts. If he comes up town who would be your principal suspect? If he comes up scum who could be his logical scumpartner?

The difference, for me, was when Weyoun switched his vote onto someone he'd been agreeing with for weeks, and away from the person they'd been co-operating to attack. Without posting anything like a decent rationale

When did he agree with Snailman8? You haven't answered who are/were his allies? IIRC, WeyounsLastClone has always been a pretty neutral player. I just think he's trying too hard when finding scumtells.

[populartajo]

Glad you are back Snail.

Unvote
FoS : Snailman8
FoS : Elmo

If Elmos is scum, as he seems to be, then Snailman8 is a most possible scumpartner that WLC.

[populartajo]

Oh, no Flameaxe, not again. Ill give u some bonus points if you find something scummy in this paragraph:

..................................................................
..................................................................
.................................................................., etc.

[quote"Elias"]I dont like the way tajo made that post either, especially when its only a little over a week till deadline.[/quote]
Easy, eager boy. He indeed is a possible scum due to his lack of interest and his poor defense, but do you know who is his scumpartner? do you know who could be scum if he comes up town?
Honestly I was going to vote him and Ill probably will, as he seems to be the best lynch in this long D1, but there are other things as well bugging me right now.
I just want to know some things:
Why do Fonz and Flameaxe suddenly had problems with Elmo's behavior (before his stupid lurking)? They never suspected Elmo before that Elias-Elmo chat.
Why was Snailman8 so sure of IH/Elias lynch and then why did he say things like : oh, Elias, good defense?
Why is WLC so newbie? Why is he so scummy?
Why does Flameaxe hate me?
Just trying to get some answers now that D2 is a possibility and waiting for that Elmo's post that, I have the feeling, will never be posted.

[populartajo]

Well, your accusations as I understand them is that I hopped on an easy wagon and/or that I'm scum in some other way. I've given my reasons as to why I think you're scum. I'm also pretty sure you're scum, so you're not likely to change your mind based on anything I say, especially as it's looking like me or you at deadline.

Dude, the thing is that if Elias is scum he needs 3 more votes, 2 of them at least should be from town. You can still change the course of this game if you post somethgin really good in that goddamn thing u promised some time ago. (or finish it right now). If you are telling the truth then it shouldnt be so hard to post it.
A good example about this is Elias defense. I started rethinking about his bandwagon because he had a solid case and I must admit, Flameaxe and Fonz kinda helped him, I still think he could be scum due to some scummy reactions pages ago, but its the same situation, if you are town and you come up with something good (and not lies obv) then you might get the same help.
Then, if you are scum, u are making the same mistake that almost lynched IH : a bad defense.
-----
In another topic...
yes, Flameaxe , u get a ton of bonus points, for the first time in the game u are making me laugh.
.......
Basically we have two groups.
Elias, Fonz, Flameaxe
Snailman8, Elmo, Populartajo
Im not sure of WLC because he has alwyas been so neutral, he even has a post where he suspects IH, S8 and myself, so I stll have the feeling he's newbie townie looking for scumtells.
So I might make a bold assumption but I think both scum are in the same group, its almost the deadline so we should, at least, decide the best lynch. Im really thinking the best couples are Fonz-Elias or Elmo-S8.
And yes, Flameaxe, I dont know where the hell I started to think u were protown.
So, thats my case. Tell me if Im wrong or if we should decide another way of voting. We can still negotiate the deadline now that activity has somehow increased, right?

[populartajo]

Ok, basically I questioned his reasoning for voting IH, saying that the -1 was his only posted reason he ever cited. To this he responded that he did in fact post other reasons. When I asked him where he posted them, he says go look in the thread. I check, and then tell him I checked, and found nothing. To this he responds that I'm not looking hard enough. I check again, theres nothing. I'm pretty sure that he is lying about the other information, since I searched for his posts (search by user feature at bottom) and found nothing. So basically he is giving false information here. I cant really cite specific examples because its over a course of a few posts, but I'll try.

He's basically calling you a liar. And it seems you dont have problems with that. The thing is that I still have problems with this because I understand you can agree with something someone posted (if its worth to agree) and your L-1 can be seen less scummy than IH's L-1 because (and I dont have problems in saying something like this) IH was a good candidate for a lynch. I even defended you because Elias/Fonz as scumpartner can be a possibility, but why the lurking?

[populartajo]

Basically we have two groups.
Elias, Fonz, Flameaxe
Snailman8, Elmo, Populartajo
Im not sure of WLC because he has alwyas been so neutral, he even has a post where he suspects IH, S8 and myself, so I stll have the feeling he's newbie townie looking for scumtells.
So I might make a bold assumption but I think both scum are in the same group, its almost the deadline so we should, at least, decide the best lynch. Im really thinking the best couples are Fonz-Elias or Elmo-S8.
And yes, Flameaxe, I dont know where the hell I started to think u were protown.
So, thats my case. Tell me if Im wrong or if we should decide another way of voting. We can still negotiate the deadline now that activity has somehow increased, right?

Opinions?

MOD : And I think we need prods on everyone but Elias, Elmo and myself.

[populartajo]

Look who's back. Anything you want to say about Elmo? About Elias?

Tajo, why do you unvote Elias directly after Snailman puts him at L-1?

A good example about this is Elias defense. I started rethinking about his bandwagon because he had a solid case and I must admit, Flameaxe and Fonz kinda helped him, I still think he could be scum due to some scummy reactions pages ago

Also, I dont like how Snailman8 smells lately.

Can we have a vote count please?

I agree. PMing right now.

[populartajo]

I cant believe no one cares about the deadline...
Ok, doing a reread I'm now more convinced that Snailman8 is scummier than I had previously thought.
Reasons : his vote/unvote/vote and his lynch me D2 if you dont believe me. These two things both contradict.
About Elmo, I really don't know. Now that he came up wiht his famous post, he really looks to me as a frustrated townie, or this could be his strategy. Im 60-40 for the frustration.
Not much can be said about WLC and Flameaxe. The worst scenario tells me they both could be scum laughing now that we get an hour for the deadline. We should note that WLC came back with a post ignoring Elmo's situation and as the last noted some time ago is allergic to express any opinions. His other posts, however, make me think he's just newbie townie.
About Flameaxe, I just think he's an ass that doesnt want to be read but either way he hasnt helped the interests of mafia.
Elias is making more sense lately and thats part of the reason Snailman8 smells bad lately. But...he's eager to lynch Elmo, why not Snailman8?
The same came be said about Fonz, these two guys were suspecting Snailman8, WLC and myself for a long time, but the thing that is bugging me hard, is why Elmo, why not Snailman8?

Ok I could be dead tomorrow, so I just wanted to state what I was thinking.
And Jdodge you officially suck as a mod. Sigh.
About my vote, I have the feeling someone will post before 1125, after that I'll vote.

[populartajo]

Finally JDodge.

I don't know about Elmo's latest streak of posts. I'm really suspicious of people voting themselves.
Unvote. Vote Elmo. (even though I agree a lynch is better than a no lynch)

This guy must like L-1s.
Also, why do our experts Fonz and Elias think about this vote. It really screams to me: we aren't scumpartners.
Which at the same time makes me think that Fonz was looking for an easy lynch.

Er, Tajo. Hammer hammer hammer.

Sorry, I got asleep.

Unvote: Elias_the_thief ; vote: Elmo. Snail, if you see this before deadline falls, hammer me.

Why do you want to die? What would town win? Why do you think Snailman8 is town?
I'm not going to hammer you until you come up with the answers. Hey, look, they are direct questions. *shrug*

[populartajo]

And Flameaxe where are you when I need to get angry?

[populartajo]

A mislynch is pretty much always better than a no lynch on the first day of a seven player game; .... I still think Elias is scum and should be lynched today, but you need to make sure that someone gets lynched, me or Elias or someone; no lynch is pretty much the worst case, because we'll likely be having the same debate tomorrow, except we'll lose if we lynch wrong.

I have my doubts. And I think we wont lose tomorrow if we dont vote today, there will be one less townie but thats all.
Then, if we vote wrong today, well be at LyLo tomorrow, thats for sure.

But I see what you mean, more facts and less suspects if you have 2 people dead prior to day 2.

It depends on our accuracy and scum's accuracy.

We have some more time to discuss now, and certainly some more information from around the deadline.

I expect you to be here commenting on the whole situation.

Now that I'm just arguing with a sole retard, im not desperate at all.

Its because Im tired of having an argument with someone that just cant lose and Snail seems to have a crush on Elmo.
-------------
In another news
We shouldnt let lurk Fonz and Flameaxe right now. After a good ol reread I'm kinda convinced that Elias is in a possible scumpair, and that Snailman8 is in the other possible one.
If we look for possible scumpartners Fonz-Elias makes sense. I dont like this post

unvote, vote Elmo
Since no-one is joining me on the Weyoun wagon, and Tajo appears minded to help lynch Elmo.

, it still looks to me he wanted a easy lynch.
Elias-Flameaxe makes sense too, now that it seems that Flameaxe was pretty happy with how things were going with Elmo's possible lynch.and his interactios some days ago..
In the other corner, Snailman8 still looks scummy. Elmo is his most possible scumpartner. Im not too sure of WLC, there's something I don't like in his L-1 on Elmo, coming back from a lurking period.
Ok, will someone read this and comment?

[populartajo]

EWBOP
Yes, Elmo, you are right, we'll lose tomorrow even if we dont vote today. I forgot scum would have another night.

[populartajo]

Fonz, can you explain this?

It seems to me like you're just trying to confuse the newbies, in the hope that Danix would panic and come up with some spurious reason for keeping his vote on, so that you could wagon him.

How is it different than IH's trap?
You have a lees than a week to answer this.

[populartajo]

EBWOP
This quote is supposed to come from game 537 where Fonz was town.

[populartajo]

I've been asked about my L-1 for Elmo. I did that because we were facing a deadline, and a lynch is better than a no lynch. What I want to know is why populartajo did not vote, even though there was a deadline?

a. No, we haven't asked.
b. Seriously, I got asleep. And like you, I wasn't sure with hammering someone that didn't look suspicious enough.

I don't know about Elmo's latest streak of posts. I'm really suspicious of people voting themselves.
Unvote. Vote Elmo. (even though I agree a lynch is better than a no lynch)

Add this to the things that make me think that you are a silly newbie.

HE NEVER RESPONDS TO THIS POST IN WHICH I PROVE THAT HE IS GUILTY OF THE LIE I ACCUSED HIM OF

Why would this make him automatically scum?

I find it extremely surprising that you dont see how much of a link that is between snail and elmo, snail defending him at all costs without even waiting for elmo to describe his own position.

I see it.
Wait, wasn't it WLC his scumpartner?

Think about it: no townie should be that sure of a pair already insofar as you should not be defending a fellow townie without KNOWING.

So, Fonz and Flameaxe are scum for defending you? I think they both DONT KNOW either, right?
How can we negotatiate the deadline. Fonz and Flameaxe can be laughing at our faces right now.
And Fonz, you have something to explain.

Mod: Please read this: Prod : Flameaxe, Fonz. Its EXTREMELY important.

[populartajo]

Alright. You have a point. Thats an exaggeration. The fact that he is assuming that Elmo isnt lying, the fact that he is pressing the issue with this much effort, the fact that he is basically putting everything on the line for it after every attack I put on Elmo, thats more than an observer that sees a bad case, which is how I would describe Fonz and Flame. Of course, since they havent posted in so long, its hard to tell.

That would be a very bad play from scum, dont you think?

I did that because we were facing a deadline, and a lynch is better than a no lynch.

Now that we're pretty near, where is your vote going at? Also, Happy scumday!
Right now Im pretty suspicious of Fonz. I know he's V/LA but the fact that he jumped on Elmo's bandwagon and the way he has avoided my quiestions, make me think there's something wrong with him. Add Flameaxe to the list, who have posted everywhere but here. So, If Im dead tomorrrow you will know who to suspect.

[populartajo]

And my answer was serious. JD is rather crafty, I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to pull a fast one on us.

Either you are scum or town, you are so fucking coward.

I'm going to bed. Sort yourselves out.

Hey, don't go. Elias has a point here, why would you want to be lynched if you're a townie? Frustration much?

given the fact I also think Fonz is town.

Why do you think Fonz is town?

[populartajo]

Or I'm just having a good time.

Yep, killing town with your BS.
.....
I did a good ol reread and I've found that Elmo-Snailman8 do make sense as scumpartners. Elmo's willing to die with no fight make me think he is faking his frustration. And Snailman8, well I've suspected him for a long time and I stated that if Elias/IH made sense, he would be my next top suspect.
I dont like Fonz lately, but in the reread I found that he's indeed more protownt that I'd thought. Again, he's the hardest read. If he's scum he's played a good game.
About WLC, well I still think he's a newbie townie who is trying too hard. In this state, he would have lynched when he had the oppotunity, but he hasn't. If he's scum then he's tricked me very well.
So, if somehow Elmo comes up town, Flameaxe-Elias make a lot of sense. I'm basing this in the first post of Flameaxe where he subtly defends Elias, and the other posts where he seems to be absolutely d'accord with Fonz and Elias. I was thinking he was town because I realize I did a lot of scummy things at the beginning and I can't blame him for voting me, but when we're twenty four hours from the deadline you can't come up with BS like Jdodge is my scumparnter.
Ok, so I'll vote Elmo. This time I wont get asleep, so I'd like to hear his last words.

[populartajo]

My last words are lynch Elias tomorrow. *shrug*

Have you ever thought in the possibility of neither of you being scum?

[populartajo]

What do you think of WLC?

[populartajo]

ok, so hi. I've been prodded (kinda) even though I've been pretty active. Dodge is like that. Anyhoo, theres not much else for me to say. I'm confident that Elmo is scum, and thus my vote stays.

Aww, JDodge, je t'adore!... @Elias, same questions:

What do you think of WLC?

Have you ever thought in the possibility of neither of you being scum?

And I have grown extremely suspicious of 'tajo. At the start he seemed like an eager newbie, but when under pressure, and later in game, he really seems like an aggressive, sometimes skilled, player who could very well be scum.

The thing is that I'm not scum and it's indeed my first game... mm well second, my other account lost as townie, bah... I learn fast and you can blame the lack of interest of town for my agressivity lately. Let's see if scum wants to keep me alive for tomorrow.
Elmo, answer please.

[populartajo]

My opinion on Flames persistence to vote for a lynching impossibility at deadline would remain regardless of alignment as its an idiotic choice.

So, Elias, do you think Flameaxe is scum?neutral?town?

[populartajo]

Elias, are you town?

[populartajo]

I want to win the game, you pussy.

[populartajo]

Tajo, why do you avoid my questions, and then call me the pussy?

Oh, did you want a serious answer?

That, sir (or maybe its a young whipper-snapper?), does not make sense.

Seriously, your questions and opinions couldnt care me more right now.

yeah im protown.

Ok, I believe in you.

At the moment I don't really suspect Elias, and suspicions against Snailman have worn of a bit.

Mmm, do you realize that the most possible scumpartner of the person you are voting is Snailman8? If Elmo, comes up town, who would you suspect?

[populartajo]

yeah im protown.

Don't you think Elmo is making a lot of sense lately? I sincerely find WLC and Flameaxe more suspicios than both of you. The idea of both of you, Elmo and Elias, being town is killing me right now.

[populartajo]

Elmo, it's time to claim.

[populartajo]

Ok,

vote: Elmo

If he's town, then you know who to lynch (either ELias, Flameaxe or probably WLC)
If he comes up scum, then lynch Snailman8.
I have the feeling I¡ll be dead tomorrow, so good luck town.

[populartajo]

Sigh... Elmo, S8, you'll always be remembered.
Big mistake, scum , you shouldn't have killed Snailman8.

Since we're in lynch or lose now I don't want to vote rightaway, but post 541 of tajo is making me highly suspicious of him, in addition to his changing behavior in the course of this game.

Ok, WLC, can you tell me what's so fishy in post 541?

Maybe it's a good idea to see who is on top of everone's scumlist right now. I suspect 'tajo the most at the moment.

It is a good idea. I suspect Elias the most at the moment. Now comes a mixture of you and Flameaxe.

Status: Day One, 7 alive, 4 to lynch; negotiable deadline 11:25 AM EST (GMT-5), February 3rd
Tajo's hammer:
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: 541
Thought I would point that out.

This screams scum to me, but it's too late now I guess.

With these two post I knew I was going to be left alive for D2. They're on twlight, so it seems someone of you (WLC and Flameaxe) was already thinking for D2 strategy.
And a cop should claim now.
Fonz, Elias, any comments?

[populartajo]

Tajo, my post that you quoted had nothing to do with you being scum, just hammering on the EXACT minute of the deadline. Sorry if you missed it.

I never said that. And what would you like to point that out?

Well first of all I have to officially declare myself a terrible scumhunter as I said I would yesterday in case I was wrong. I'm dumbfounded.

The thing is that you were wrong twice. Who's the retarded now?

But I'm obviously more suspicious of the people who supported my campaign for Elmos lynch

Who supported your campaign?
Flameaxe?

I dont even know what to say of flame at this point

Fonz?

Im not certain. Im pretty sure fonz is town.

Well, one thing Im sure, populartajo only supported Elmo's lynch when he didnt come up with the post he promised. But...

My suspicion of tajo has gone up seeing as he jumped on the elmo wagon at the end just because he was getting a lynch.

So who are you suspecting? Me?
Really? Townies left, we needed a hammer, everyone but Flameaxe knows that a No lynch at that moment was the worst thing could happen to town. I just want to know why in HELL I'm scummy for that?
Ok, Elias, now I'm really convinced you're scum.
Second call: if we have a cop he should claim now.

[populartajo]

EBWOP To Flameaxe
I never said that. And why would you like to point that out?

[populartajo]

I said I was MORE suspicious of people on supporting elmos lynch. Not that I was most suspicious of them. The fact that I'm more suspicious of them doesnt mean I actually have changed my stance on their probable alignments.

It's idiot to come up with : "Well I'm more suspcious of people supporting Elmo's lynch (Fonz, Flameaxe)" and then come up with : "Well, Fonz is town and Flameaxe, well, I dont know what to think of him, he's idiot but not scummy." See my point?

Yes, I am suspicious of you. To switch at the end of day while giving the reason of "elmo never came up with that post" is suspicious.not coming up with a post is not a scumtell.

1. Elmo was posting in other games but this. He took almost 1-2 weeks to send his big post. He was in a difficult situation if he had been scum so I was thinking that avoiding us was the best thing to do, waiting for something to come up and get a distraction. And yes, you had some interesting points in his case that he didn't care to defend, so the mix of these two things, if not individually scumtells, are scummy enough.
2. And I didnt hammer him because I found him scummy. Thats simple. If you cant read I'm almost asking for not lynching Elmo at the end of D1. He started to make a lot of sense, but it was inevitable. The deadline killed us and a no-lynch was the worst thing could happen.

Anyways, you say youre MORE suspicious of me. Why exactly are you suspicious of me in the first place?

I have always suspected you, even when you were IH. In my last post of D1 I even said that if Elmo comes up town, then obv the scum should be in the group of the ones supporting the lynch. Guess who was pushing this lynch so hard? Yes, you.

[populartajo]

No. I'm less certain that fonz is town, but he still is

What's the difference then?

Also flameaxe didnt support elmos lynch that much

He subtly did it.

But the lack of post is still a dumb reason. Even now you cant describe what points I was raising in your own words.

It isnt a dumb reason for me.

its easy to ask when you know it wont happen.

What?

Thats not a case. Why should I be any suspicious then the people that jumped on the lynch at the end? Why cant I be a confused townie?

Because you werent a confused townie. You really needed that lynch.

[populartajo]

And you were so sure of it

[populartajo]

He didnt have any impact on the actual lynching. He didnt even vote for him.

Do you understand what subtly means?

Thats a very weak reason. thats why I suspect you.

Why should we think you're not wrong again?

The lynch was unlikely to derail given how late you made the attempt to change it.

There's a difference though. I had the feeling he was townie. You, never.

So basically this is completely based on your previously founded opinion that I am scum, and is still no evidence.

This is based in the fact that we're 5 now. I know I'm town. I think Fonz is town, too. So all we have left is three suspects. And one of them was so sure of lynching someone who now is town. Why shouldn't I suspect you?

[populartajo]

I was right. You never lose or be wrong and when you do it's others' fault. It was an interesting chat but now I'm being officially kicked of my computer.
Just one more thing.

Every scumtell can fail, as was shown by Elmo being town.

If you knew this, then why in hell were you so sure of his allignement.
...
Ok, I know there are two other townies here in this game. Please, do me favor. I'm not asking to do a reread, read only the last 5 pages. Ok, I was the hammer, but I've already explained my reasons for doing so. Find who actually, as scum, needed hard that lynch and encouraged others to do it. Find the supporter. Look all this discusion. I just wanted to prove that he suddenly has a case on me, when the first thing he said he would do if Elmo came up town, was to suspect the people who was supporting the lynch.
As Elmo said once, really, how obvious does mafia have to be?

[populartajo]

I still dont have a case on you, but I suspect you. The illusion that I "had a case" was one that you created.

My suspicion of tajo has gone up seeing as he jumped on the elmo wagon at the end just because he was getting a lynch

1. Is this a case?
2. Yeah, blame me for lynching the guy you so wanted dead. And blame me for doing what you thought was idiotic yesterday.

Flameaxe, I dont know why you would rather no lynch than scum lynched. I can only stare at you and call you an idiot

Given the fact that Flame refuses to vote for a realistic lynch candidate definately makes me wonder about his alignment.

My opinion on Flames persistence to vote for a lynching impossibility at deadline would remain regardless of alignment as its an idiotic choice.

However I dont see the motivation for a no lynch if hes town. Right now he looks like hes a possible scumbuddy for elmo, though not as likely as you and snail.

Keeping your vote on someone who has no chance of being lynched is idiotic, yes, but scummy? Im not certain

The funny thing is that I don't know what Elias exactly thinks about Flameaxe : idiot or scum.

As such, I pushed the lynch because I thought I was doing what was right for town.

And when I do the best thing for town, Elias and WLC call me suspicious.

AND everyone decides to lurk.

Mod Prod : Fonz, Flameaxe and WLC, Please

[populartajo]

Lameaxe, please tell me you arent a stupid townie.

[populartajo]

Now that we're D2 and you aren't afraid of dying, can you tell me why am I so scummy for this recent back and forth? Do you hate me that much?

[populartajo]

Making you unreadable all D1. Now, ANSWER THE QUESTION.

[populartajo]

Oooo, I made him post another stupid and irrelevant comment avoiding an answer to a direct question. Bonus points!

[populartajo]

So you agree your comment was pretty stupid...
Avoiding my question one more time?

[populartajo]

There's only one kind of people who enjoys stupid comments. And yes I asked a question, you can click page 23 and look for it. Bye.

[populartajo]

Thats why im uncertain to his alignment.

Fuck, Elias, he has a vote on me. It's D2 and WLC has posted only once and Fonz is not even here. This vote is not idiocy, it's proof he's scum that doesnt care about a possible townie dying, he's just voting for the easiest target.

Thats may main beef with you: opportunism.

So, it would have been better to no:lynch Elmo?
Elmo was right: you're scumpartners.

[populartajo]

you talk about the vote for elmo as if its the only incidence of opportunism youve shown....

Show more of this opportunism please.

Anyways, hes been after you for a LONG time, and i think if hes scum hes done a good job of looking sincere in his suspicion of you. That being said, I dont suspect him for voting you. It takes two more to lynch, so if he truly thinks youre scum then there is nothing to fear of both scum piling on.

Are you serious? Can you read? He doesnt even know why he's voting for me. Why are you defendig him? He 's voting D2 with no reason at all.

[populartajo]

Dont you get it? He never gives a reason.

Given that the vote is an extention of his vote yesterday, it seems reasonable.

His suspicions yesterday were never reasonable, IIRC.

Im working on the other examples of opportunism now.

Funny how you think I'm an opportunist now, and Flameaxe who votes for me for no reason, it's not one.
And funny how you think I wasn't an opportunist when I FoSed Elmo D1.

You know what they say...Assumption killed the scum.

I'm not assuming anything. You dont have a case against me.
Stretch more, please.

[populartajo]

And once again, Elias, So, it would have been better to no:lynch Elmo?

[populartajo]

Assuming youre town, it depends. If youre solidly certain that Elmo isnt scum, then its a good move. You seemed to think I was much more likely scum. Given that, I dont think No lynch is that much worse[/quote="Elias]
Excellent. This brings up a good point. You're never solidly certain if you're town. You were solidly certain about Elmo D1, you are solidly certain about Flameaxe D2, you simply cant think he's scum. I was never certain. Elmo could have been scum, all my posts suspecting him explain why I was thinking about that probability. I, yes I, can be a confused townie who happens to read all posts and sees good points and looks for the best thing for town. I hammered Elmo because even he was making a lot of sense at the end of D1, it was the best play for town. You know that, Elias.
But, Flameaxe, keepin his irrelevant vote on me for all D1, can't be a confused townie.
And you, who were so sure of Elmo's allignement, can't be a confused townie.

as to your fos, I never said that. Im not sure what post youre talking about so I cant say what my opinion on it was.

The point is that you're calling me an opportunist D2 for things I did D1 and you never mentioned a single word about it D1. Why wasn't I an oppotunist for suspecting Elmo? Is it becuase you needed that lynch?

[populartajo]

And Flameaxe's post deserves a new one. Essentially, I suported the lynch when Elmo seemed to avoid us and when he seemed to be frustrated about this game. But I didnt hammer him because I found him scummy. Thats clear, he could have been scum, but definetely he was making a lot sense, especially after the change of deadline. And, again, it was the best play for town. So, I was right, you have no case against me.

[populartajo]

This only happens to be a part of it.

And.. what contradictions?
Bring them on.

[populartajo]

Sigh... I sincerely had the feeling that Fonz was going to come with a neutral perspective. Am I so scummy? Really? Why? EVERYONE suspects me right now, all my posts seem scummy to other's eyes, it's hard to fight against 4 experienced players, but I'm going to give my best. I'm town and I wont stop answering until I show that to you.
All attackers there, did you know why did I said that it was a scum mistake to have NKed Snailman8? Because, supossing Im scum:
1. Now I dont have a logical scumparnter.
2. There was no reason for me as scum to have NKed a player who was agreeing with me in the game for most of the time.
3. Why didnt I NK one integrant of the other group (Elias, Flameaxe, Fonz)?
4,

If pretty much everyone else is attacking one player, then it's hard to see how he can be scum with anyone- and if it's hard to find a possible scumpair, that player isn't likely scum.

Think about this, please.
Now, into the posts.

The fact that he happens to be voting for you is proof he's scum?

No, he can vote for whoever he wants but the point is that he has no reasons for voting me today. His "answer" to my question page 23 is not a case against me, and all his suspicions D1 are not really reasonable, he can't even post them. Even so, he's voting for me.

Not giving reasons and not having reasons are not remotely the same thing.

What? So, if anyone voted for you, Fonz, and not gave any reason, you wouldn't suspect him? And in D2?

n addition, the very phrasing of Tajo's arguments seems to me to stink. 'The scum needed this lynch' and 'we should look for the one who pushed it and encouraged others to join the wagon.' MWAH! WRONG!

It's not wrong, its logical. At least one of the lynchers knew that Elmo was town. I didnt know it. At the end of D2 you can see my doubts, my tries to reread the thread and my intentions of gathering the most conversation for D2. But, Elias needed that lynch, he was so blind about him that he never was interested of finding his scumpartner, he just wanted that lynch. It's not "my scumhunting abilities suck", Fuck, Fonz, if he wasnt totally sure he was going to lynch scum, why did he push this lynch so hard and now calls me an opportunist for jumping in his lynch?
[quote="Elias]Um, no. I was aware of your opportunism. However if you hadnt noticed I was busy with about 2-3 massive posts a day trying to get elmo lynched, as I was sure he was scum.[/quote]
So, Fonz and WLC are a couple of inocent opportunist, right?
....
@Flameaxe : I'm still waiting, bring them on!

[populartajo]

I disagree. This is very much wifom, and any one of the remaining players could be your scumpartner doing a good job of bussing.

Elias, who is my scumparnter?

except that his defense of elmo throughout the whole day would have made him obvious townie by comparison to you.

This isn't logical. He was more suspicious than me all D1. His defense is not a town tell, there's no reason why scum couldn't have done that.

Because you wanted to paint me and flame as buddies, and because fonz was less obv town than snail after the reveal of elmos alignment.

1. Yeah and I NKed the player who hated you and flameaxe as well.
2. So you're finally acepting that you have a case against me.

[populartajo]

I dont know. I'm not certain youre scum even, just that youre my leading suspect.

Who's your second suspect?

WIFOM much?

Wrong. Not WIFOM at all. Snailman8's defense IS NOT a town tell. Scum could have done that.

1- WIFOM again.

Can you stop puting WIFOM at every argument I make? Use LOGIC, it would have been stupid to nightkill a player who I knew was going to support me, and it would have been even more stupid to let alive one of the players agaist us.

2- No, youre my top suspect. You worded your points as "were I scum" and I responded as such. I haven't written my case yet, I dont see why its of any relevance whether I "admit" I have one.

So, you dont have a case against me.

[populartajo]

Flame. But a connection between you and WLC seems more likely then the flame pairing.

Why Flame? Why WLC?

First, I still say it is a town tell, as I'm pretty sure (noob) scum wouldve gone THAT out of their way to deny a townie lynch.

We dont have noob scum. Thats for sure.
The wifom point I made there was incorrect, but the argument that "NKing snailman overall is a mistake" is wifom
Yes, BIG MISTAKE. When did I use it as an argument?

because the attacks would obviously be on you from everyone else and by nking him you place the wifom assumption that you wouldnt have killed him.

Or thats what probably what youre thinking and thats why you left me alive. Null tell.

Unless you thought it would let you successfully escape arguments based on the improbability.

Rephrase, please

I have reasons for suspecting you, yes. Have I organized them into a case yet? No.

What are you waiting?

[populartajo]

EBWOPBIASTRN:

he wifom point I made there was incorrect, but the argument that "NKing snailman overall is a mistake" is wifom

Yes, BIG MISTAKE. When did I use it as an argument?

[populartajo]

I have seen numerous games where two distinct and opposed factions form. There are often scum on both sides.

Often? I have my doubts, but in our game it's a safe assumption. Snailman8's group (Elmo and myself) wanted both Flameaxe and IH/Elias dead. Elias' group (Fonz and Flameaxe) wanted anyone of the other group to be lynched. For you, Fonz, WLC belonged to our group as you state in big part of D1. But using your logic that scum doesnt always agree with each other, then to your eyes, he can't be a logical scumpartner were I scum. Or does this logic only apply to you group?
Now you say that there are often scum on both sides, but you think Flameaxe is not scummy and I still dont know what do you think about Elias, but I assume you like him too. So, who's my scumpartner? You?

To make you look innocent? To avoid the possibility of today's discussion revolving around the discussion of a possible Tajo/Snail pairing that might lead to your lynch?

Make me look innocent? How does killing the one who most shared my points of view, make me look innocent? Why not kill one of the guys who hated me? Fonz, really, all that quote is based in a horrible "you're just thinking about it too much"
Now think about this, scum needs just one stupid vote to quicklynch someone, why would I, assuming I am scum, kill one of my safe votes?, why not kill Flameaxe or Elias, or even you and WLC who suspected our group so hard? Why not diminishing your group, Fonz?
It's because I'm not scum. Simple.

One, Weyoun is a perfectly feasible scumbuddy, and he's not around.

Why now Weyoun, just because of my smell? Why not someone of your group? The fact that WLC has only one post in D2 doesn't make his attack less sincere, if you refer to a possible busing.

Two, the effect of a diminished pool of possible scumbuddies. If someone is only likely (rather than possible, since any amount of distancing is possible) to be scum with one out of five people, that's fairly strong evidence for his innocence. One out of three? Less so. Two people who were unlikely Elias partners dying as town reduces the power of that initial argument, if you follow.

I do follow. The thing is that now that my group is dead, I dont have a logical scumpartner.

Three, I'm not sure quite how much attacking is going on. Flameaxe is attacking you, fine. I'm not, as yet, I disagree with you on the issues but need to re-read you to see where you're coming from. And Elias...meh. I don't think he's yet gone after you in the manner that IH was attacked yesterday.

Everyone's attacking me. Nobody suspects anyone not called populartajo.

I can think of reasonable reasons for voting you. I don't recall Flameaxe ever laying out a decent case on anyone, why would he start now?

And why not suspect him? Fonz, read, he doesn't care. If he really were a townie who strongly suspects me as scum, why the vote without a reason? I have the right to defend me, to explain him things that he could have misunderstood. But he simply doesn't care, he doesn't want to explain, really why not suspect him?

I'm not trying to suggest he didn't feel extremely sure he was lynching scum, though. You can feel very sure and still be wrong. Generally, i find conviction to be a towntell.

Conviction is a scumtell. They know for sure who's town and who isn't.

[populartajo]

Suppose both are town, that's probably the least likely, right? Otherwise the two remaining scum could finish the game. So, if one of them is scum, who is the most suspicious from this situation? They could also be both scum, but I doubt that.

WLC, Im not scum. And with your return without a vote, now its a safe assumption to think that there's one scum between me and Flameaxe. (this of course supposing that scum dont have problems with schedule) I know Im town, so, as I stated, there's a big big possibility of Flameaxe being scum number 1.

It's a difficult situation with just 5 people in the game, and all 3 townies having to vote for a scum. We probably don't have a cop, because otherwise he'd have claimed by now, right?

I asked twice, nobody answered. I suppose ICs know this is the best for town but yes, nobody has answered. So, we can assume we dont have a cop.
WARNING : Read this carefully.

At the moment I'm the most suspicious of 'tajo, mainly because his recent behavior. Arguments like 'if I was scum, I wouldn't have done that' are pretty much moot to me, and actually make me more suspicious of someone. And I think Elias is tajo's scumpartner. He skillfully evaded lynch the first day, and seems to be 'in control' today as well. (But that's mainly my fault as well, because I have contributed nearly nothing at all for a long time.

1. Ok, I can understand that. I would suspect myself if I were you, but all readers there, please use some LOGIC, and stop the WIFOM reasoning. The wrong thing with WIFOM is that you con go either way, so its pretty much null tells, with LOGIC there's always one more possible answer.
2. But, WLC, can you explain the reasoning behind these posts?

Ok, vote: Elmo
If he's town, then you know who to lynch (either ELias, Flameaxe or probably WLC)
If he comes up scum, then lynch Snailman8.
I have the feeling I¡ll be dead tomorrow, so good luck town.

This screams scum to me, but it's too late now I guess.

Since we're in lynch or lose now I don't want to vote rightaway, but post 541 of tajo is making me highly suspicious of him, in addition to his changing behavior in the course of this game.

Why

exactly

am I scum to your eyes? Changing behavior? Doing the best thing for town?
3. Ad why Elias, what's so different from his behavior D1?

At the moment I don't really suspect Elias, and suspicions against Snailman have worn of a bit.

This brings again the point why voting Elmo and not suspecting his most possible scumpartner Snailman8?

[populartajo]

Touché, scumbag

[populartajo]

It's not a fair assumption, and if either or both of you is town, you've done your side a great disservice.

Why?

Basically, I don't think a cop without a guilty ought to claim on a day two after a town lynch, unless the player he has an innocent on is otherwise going to be lynched.

I still dont know. We're talking about possibilities, someone who has an innoncent result of someone should probably claim, IMO, we have inmediate information of two players, one who can be faking the claim in the worst case, and one possible townie, assuming the cop is telling the truth.

Also, for the 'not quicklynching' thing, you'd have to demonstrate that at some point two of myself, elias and weyoun were online simultaneously for it to be valid.

It's pretty hard, dont you think?

(this of course supposing that scum dont have problems with schedule)

So I guess, its just a business of time.

[populartajo]

EBWOPBIASD
The cop result, assuming the claimer is the real cop, gives us two inmediate townies.

[populartajo]

Ok, valid points. What do you think about my WLC case? Do Flameaxe and WLC make sense as scumparnters?

[populartajo]

so yeah. bumpzorz.

Not so much here. Trying to define if Flameaxe is scumpartner with you or with WLC. Of course, it would help if WLC answered my questions.

[populartajo]

Mod, Prod WLC, please

What bothers me is that he's not avoiding us, in his other game he has 2-3 posts in the same period of time.
It would suck if he gets replaced.

[populartajo]

Funny thing is that all players here are eager to find my mistakes, but nobody has commented WLC's post.

[populartajo]

Still here, still reading, and still don't know what to say more. I'm still suspicious of you, mostly because of your end of day 1 behavior. You already start implicating things to do on day 2 when Elmo is lynched (you spit 3 names out that we have to vote for...). Then your day 2 defense against the vote for you is only WIFOM reasoning like 'I wouldn't have done that if I were mafia'.
But it could still be that you're a somewhat desperate townie, and the reason that you're still on one vote is that Flameaxe is mafia, and not you.

That's some interesting thinking. But..

Seems to be allergic to expressing an opinion on anything meaningful. Smells funny, too. *poke* *poke*

You just cant come back from lurking like this. Also, please answer this:

And I think Elias is tajo's scumpartner. He skillfully evaded lynch the first day, and seems to be 'in control' today as well.

3. And why Elias, what's so different from his behavior D1?

Why Elias now... wait, mmm, why not mentioning him in yours last post?

This brings again the point why voting Elmo and not suspecting his most possible scumpartner Snailman8?

Why this?

[populartajo]

Elias, 632 was all directed to WLC, but if you'd like to comment I have no problems.
WLC, seriously, you cant be that dumb. Answer the questions, please.
Fonz, well, definetely my picks for scumparnters would be wether Flameaxe-WLC or Flameaxe-Elias. I just cant think Elias is a tainted townie who was wrong. Also, I still can't prove all of you three were conected at the same time to avoid the theory of scum with schedule problems, but I think at least two posts per person after the first vote is enough to safely discard it.
So, the next post would be my vote for Flameaxe. I'm pretty convinced he's scum. Id like to hear some comments or if we should wait for WLC's response.

[populartajo]

I would like to see a firm opinion from WLC at some point this game.

Any comments, Flameaxe?

[populartajo]

I would like to see a firm opinion from WLC at some point this game.

Any comments, Flameaxe?

I agree.

Lets wait if WLC wants to break this pyramid.

[populartajo]

I would like to see a firm opinion from WLC at some point this game.

Any comments, Flameaxe?

I agree.

Lets wait if WLC wants to break this pyramid.

NO

Why not?

[populartajo]

but i also extended the thread, which is hella tight.

that was totally unncssry.

[populartajo]

Wow, now you want to vote Tajo?

Wow, WLC,

what do you want to do?

I want you to do something. This game is dragging like crazy.

QFT. Just because we're here, who are your top suspects?

[populartajo]

Obviously you. Fonz is still obvtown. WLC is seeming a more likely scum partner now, but Flame could be just hardcore bussing you.

Sigh, Elias. Haven't I convinced you yet? I thought you had no case against me.
Facts : Now I can prove WLC and Elias aren't scumpartners.
I know that Fonz and Elias can't be scumpartners.
Also, I'm pretty convinced Fonz is town.
Conclusion : Its Flameaxe and WLC.
Flameaxe : vote on me, nobody has hammered yet.
WLC : shows no interest in the game. I can prove he has avoided us.
Comments?

[populartajo]

Additional fact : I know I'm town.

[populartajo]

Flameaxe, who's my scumparner and why?

[populartajo]

*scumpartner, in case u come up with bs

[populartajo]

Flameaxe, now.

[populartajo]

Kiss mine, scumbag.
You dont have an answer.

Vote : Flameaxe.

[populartajo]

Flameaxe, do you need more information?
Why are you voting me then?
Vote stands.

[populartajo]

Flameaxe, 28 pages and you cant find me a decent scumparnter?
Guess what. Its because Im not scum.
So, its up for the rest of town to decide. Ok, pretty much Fonz and Elias. WLC is probably going to support Flameaxe.

[populartajo]

Right, and neither of them have commented on anything important today.

Serious? I can buy that from your scumpartner WLC, but Fonz and Elias have made some comments. I dont see how a Fonz' comment of the situation can make you find me a scumpartner.
So I guess Ill have to help you. What do you think of WLC?

[populartajo]

Flameaxe, in case you didnt see it.

So I guess Ill have to help you. What do you think of WLC?

Look, Im being helpful!

I'm really sorry for not posting more, but at this moment almost all I have is gut-feelings, and they are against tajo and Elias.
And yes, I've read the thread, and no, that didn't help me to form a definitive conclusion.
I'm at the edge of voting tajo, but I won't because I'd hate to see Elias/Flameaxe win if they're the scumpair.

Ok, WLC, why dont you want to answer my questions? Why are you ignoring us? I made a quick research and you've been posting in your other game and not here.
You are free to have gut feelings. But I want to

exactly

know why me, why Elias? If you're really town, then explain, please.

[populartajo]

And like...do something WLC. Honestly, everyone but you has essentially made up their mind, and you and fonz are just sitting there doing nothing. can we please prod: fonz?

I agree. WLC please explain. But, what about you, Elias? Where are your suspicions now? Do we need Fonz that much? I agree he should be here to cotnribute but I dont get why Flameaxe and you seem to need his opinion to contribute to the thread. I agree he feels town but this shouldnt stop us from commenting.
Elias, why I am the only one suspecting WLC's lurking, why I am the only one suspecting Flameaxe's negativeness to contribute? Any reasons, doubting your scumhunting?
If WLC isnt scum then I dont know why that post screams "WLC, please vote someone right now so that I can hammer"
So,WLC if there's a tiny chance that you're town and you dont have much time to contribute or you're pretty lost, then you already know that you shouldn't vote. Try to contribute more and read my posts. But know please contribute, your lurking is making me doubt of your allignment.

[populartajo]

I definitely like "contribute"

[populartajo]

Elias, where are your suspicions now?

[populartajo]

Obviously you. Fonz is still obvtown. WLC is seeming a more likely scum partner now, but Flame could be just hardcore bussing you.

Any changes?

[populartajo]

Do you still think Flameaxe is still bussing me?

[populartajo]

EBWOP
Cut some still, kay?

[populartajo]

Do you see Flameaxe/WLC?

[populartajo]

Why not?

[populartajo]

Finally, you're admitting it.
Therefore I must assume you think WLC is my scumpartner. Rite?

[populartajo]

Look 608. To me its pretty clear that all your cases against me are nulltells. Care to explain this change of approach?

[populartajo]

Why do you

now

think I'm scum?

[populartajo]

Elias, its because you have no case against me. Simple as that. . If you're scum then you've played an excellent game and I cant make people to realize why I think I feel you scummy. But if you're town, you have to realize that I'm not scum. See? You still can't decide between Flameaxe or WLC, probably because no one can be my scumparnter becuase Im not scum.
So, its up to Fonz. Well, Fonzie you have a hard decision in your hands (I hope its hard, otherwise Ive learned a lot of things here - what I should and shouldn't have done). Im pretty sure Flameaxe is scum beacuse I know Im town, Elias and WLC havent hammered and I feel Fonz is town. The problem is that I cant decide between Elias or WLC.
WLC has avoided us for some time. I can prove he has ignored us but is this proof of scum? I dont know. What bothers me is that he has stayed quiet this day to avoid possible contradictions and my questions which I havent yet found answers.
Elias has been a pretty active player. He was so wrong D1 and I still cant buy that his eagery to lynch Elmo could be a towntell.
With that said, I have made my final decision. IH/Elias is not scum. If he is, then congrats, you deserve this game. My scumpair is WLC/Flameaxe. I can vote for whoever you want, Elias and Fonz. I dont care becuase no one is my scumpartner. If you call this busing, then you have the right to think aboput this possibility but I say to you, I'm not scum.

[populartajo]

Finally, Fonz.

You're willingness to move your vote wherever definately makes me feel more suspicious of you.

Dude. Why is this? Im telling you I dont care where my vote is going at (between Flameaxe or WLC) as soon as we hit any of them, therefore I dont care who dies first at this state of the game where I've made the bold assumption that I cant make people vote for you and that both Flameaxe and WLC are mafia. For me Flameaxe is 100% confirmed, WLC isn't at all, but as Ive stated I'm really tired of this game and if Elias is scum, he deserves to win this one, you got it. I made my best effort. If WLC is town then his willingness to cooperate killed us.
Ok, I might be getting paranoid, but if Fonz is scum Im going to be so pissed. However, at this point of the game, I seriously doubt it. So you probably, as town, have made the best decision. If we deserve to lose then it was a gg and we lost following our insticts.
Come on Elias, Flameaxe, if you're mafia then hammer and win. Nicely played. If you're town and you suspect me as scum, (which I still dont know why) then vote my scumpartner and then vote me D3. (Im assuming Im going to be alive D3 because Ill keep being the easy target)

Meh. Populartajo's last post seems more irritating, self-pitying noob than scum. THe pair aren't incompatible.

Fonz, Im just a noob trying to win a fight against three ICs. How can't I be irritating?

[populartajo]

First of all, yes, I realize that last paragraph was a little bit guided for my frustration, but I hope it helps me in the future.
Now, Fonz, you have to undestand that I've been trying to share my thought during all D2 with pretty much no support of anyone. At some point of the game all 4 other players were in my ass, coming up with some strong, some weak arguments. I've tried to answer all the questions that have been raised against me and after all this, I dont see any understanding of my points, sometimes feeling that Im being ignored for all here.
Seriously, how can't I get frustrated for something like that?
And yes I concede about IH's case. Its pretty much nulltell but I at least think that his behavior (if he were town) is just antitownie, as I've stated when debating about it.

No-one ever does ANYTHING just because they're a newbie. They do them because they think they're right, if town, or will advantage their side, if they're scum. So if you're pressed on something, depict the thought process behind it as accurately as you can, if you're town. It makes it easier for other players to get a read on you.

Ill remember this.

[populartajo]

I knew it. GG, scumpair. I did all I could. Thx for the games. And WLC, u suck.

[populartajo]

yeah i feel bad for you tajo, WLC really sealed your loss.

Probably. The wrong lecture from Fonz about you also helped. Also, I was the doc, my strategy to survive D2 worked and I protected Fonz who could be the cop, but I'm not sure.

MY LAST WIN AS A NEWBIE... *TEAR*

And I'd like to make a public apolog........ nahhh.
I hate you Flameaxe.
You played it good, pal, sorry for the insults.

[populartajo]

Major props to Elmo and Snailman8 for guessing the scumpair as early as page 8. I was there too but gosh, you guys both seemed too conected at the end of D1, that made me suspect you. Then I realized that my indecision could make me survive D1. Guess it worked. Looking forward to play another game with you guys.
Now that I squirm for the thread, I guess I should have protected Snailman8 but I really thought the scumpair wouldn't kill him so that they could convince the remaning townie to vote for any of us. Guess I was wrong.
Also, I feel Elmo could have done more for town. You guessed pretty well but I guess town needed more of your defense.
And yes Fonz was wrong all game but what killed us was definetely WLC willingness to contribute. I feel good with my play and now Im addicted to mafia. Hey, my new game just started. See you.

[populartajo]

Hah Fonz, I agree with pretty much you and Elmo are posting, but dont be so hard with WLC. I still think that he was the principal cause for the loss of town (Elias did also very well) but part of my frustration came up when you were so sure about Elias allignement, and, I mean, all the game. Sometimes you just have to open your mind to what others say, think about every little possibility and then decide .
I still think we shouldnt have lynched Elmo, but I guess he got tired and frustrated too, he was correct but he didnt know how to support his theory.
I got tired at the end. I was thinking that Fonz suspected Flameaxe more than me, so my next move would have been to make him vote for Flameaxe instead of WLC who still wasnt 100% confirmed, but Fonz surprised with a WLC vote and pretty much the game was lost.