Newbie 528 - Game Over!

[JimmyJammas]

yay!

Original Roll String: 1d6

1 6-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[JimmyJammas]

Vote: Zyrconium

[JimmyJammas]

haha yeah, it's dumb that you can't see the result of the dice roll until you submit it (preview might give you a different answer).

So you have to submit it, look at the result, then post again.

Preview will in fact tell you what the result is, but when you submit your post, the result will change. Therefore you have to do it the way you did, JJ

[JimmyJammas]

Mod: who are our ICs?

Muerrto and Nemesis are your ICs. I have edited the initial post to reflect this information.

[JimmyJammas]

First off, I'm really pumped that we have active players. I dislike games that go for days on end without anyone saying anything.
And since Muerrto has given us his posting habits, I will as well: I'll check in occasionally on the weekends, but I usually post during the day on weekdays.

Now back to the game:
I think LutenitPowwel's second vote on Muerrto should be looked at not for its bandwagoneyness, but because of the reason he gave, and his defense of that reason.
I don't have an issue with placing a second vote on someone in the random voting stage. I do have a couple issues with Lutenit's defense of his vote so far, though:
1) Lutenit's vote was challenged on two fronts: Muerrto questioned his reasoning (what I consider important), and Zyrc questioned his bandwagoneyness (like I said, I don't think the 2nd vote in the random stage is all that important). Note that Lutenit chose only to respond to Zyrc, and not Muerrto.
2) When Lutenit did respond to Zyrc, it was more of an attack than a defense.

I don't really suspect Lutenit all that strongly at this point, but I did want to point those things out.

I've always wondered, why to people always trust dice rolls to be true?
Surely anyone can write Dice roll in bold and put whatever they want in quote tags?

No, because the quote tags themselves will insert "Quote:" in bold before the actual quote.

In case that wasn't clear, the output of what you've suggested,
[ b ]Dice Roll:[ /b ]
[ quote ]Original Roll String: 1d6
1 6-Sided Dice Results: 6[/ quote ]

is

Dice Roll:

Original Roll String: 1d6
1 6-Sided Dice Results: 6

which is different from the original (see post #4).

The one you might actually be able to get away with though, is quoting "Dice Roll" itself.
The output of

Original Roll String: 1d6
1 6-Sided Dice Results: 6

is

Original Roll String: 1d6
1 6-Sided Dice Results: 6

but notice "Dice Roll

wrote

". The original doesn't include the word

wrote

.

If you have inattentive players, or newbie players who don't know that subtle difference, you probably could get away with it.
But there is no reason not to trust a dice roll, because its real output can't be faked.

[JimmyJammas]

I think 'randomly' voting for someone for a silly reason is better ... because they usually serve as ice breakers

I like the ice-breaker angle, I never thought of it like that.

My post was simply to show that you could trust a dice roll, not to say anything about the usefulness of it. Truth be told, this is only my second game here and I just wanted to try it out.

[JimmyJammas]

Woah buddy, that's 3 on Lutenit now, let's not get careless. One of you three please remove your vote immediately and Alan, let's get some explanation on the vote...

I agree, a quicklynch is the last thing that the town wants. Think of the situation it will put us in if he's innocent: We will have absoultely zero information to go off of for Day 2, when we will most likely be in Lynch or Lose (we have to lynch a scum or the game is over).

Alan, did you know it only takes four votes to lynch someone?
If yes, did you know that yours was the third vote?

[JimmyJammas]

Wow, I had a lot of catching up to do this morning.

Some quotes I wanted to comment on:

If someone jumped at the chance to quicklynch and hammered Lutenit, that person would almost definitely be scum

Careful with this one. In my first game here, the exact same argument was made and the IC explained why that reasoning doesn't work: If someone had hammered, they would be

agreeing with you

, and therefore they would be no more "definite scum" than you are.
The only way the logic works is if it's in the random voting stage. No one can explain themselves out of hammering someone for no reason at all. But in our situation it was already different - people were voting for Lutenit for a reason.

... And 1 scum down day one is the worst start town can have.

How is one scum down on day one the worst start the town can have? Isn't that the

best

start town can have?

Just to correct you (not as an offense), I'm playing 2 games at a time. This is just the second one I signed up for.
No offense.

Lutenit, why are you so worried about offending Alan? This post is troubling. If you know you're innocent (aka a townie), why are you worried about offending people?

Re: the argument for a Lutenit / Alan pairing:

Oh man. That would be the most overt scum tactic I've ever seen if they planned to have Lutenit simply copy every vote and FoS that Alan makes. While I don't want to clear them because it's "too scummy to be scum", I have a super hard time believing that the scum would be that ballsy.

Alternatively, it could be a pretty good scum tactic to target a

townie

and do the same thing. Here's what I'm thinking:

Scum Plan

: Lutenit targets random townie, and mimics his every move.

Town thinks

: that is absurd, they are both scum. Let's vote Lutenit first, because Alan really has done nothing wrong here. But if Lutenit is scum, Alan is almost definitely his partner.

Day 1 Lynch

: Lutenit

Night 1 kill

: some townie

Day 2 Lynch

: since Lutenit flipped mafia, the town decides to lynch Alan (a townie)

Night 2 kill

: some townie
... The start of Day 3 would then have 2 townies and 1 mafia, and the town would be in lynch-or-lose. Not a bad situation from the mafia's point of view.

Now, of course, this doesn't take into account the power roles, but, you get the idea.
So, ummmm... crap. Now I'm all confused in WIFOM. I guess my point is, I don't put much stock into the Alan / Lutenit pairing at this time. I would be careful of condemning or clearing Alan based on Lutenit.

Re:Alan's analysis of Nemesis, and then quick retraction:

This struck me as odd. You've basically said "I don't really think he's scum, but I have to put something out there to make it look like I do". This is scum mentality at its finest.
Also, you say

Well, my analysis was no good. It was a failed attempt at gaining knowledge.

, but you didn't give it any

time

to gain knowledge. It was up for four hours, in which time only Muerrto and Nemesis posted. Muerrto posted a clarifying question, and Nemesis defended himself. Then you told everyone else to ignore it. Why? If anything, I would have left it up there for other people to comment on. See who comes to his defense, who agrees with you, etc.
Also, your comment

I'm pretty confused at the moment, so I'll let other people do the talking for now

seems like a convenient way for you to lurk for a while. Combine this with your quick retraction and these posts seem like a hit-and-run. This isn't sitting well with me.

[JimmyJammas]

Muerrto, I am not understanding what you meant by

Unless you believe I just actually meant that.

and

Then again, I am quite crafty(to play devil's advocate so I don't confirm myself) and have yet to be caught as scum so *shrug*

...Can you clarify those two things for me?

[JimmyJammas]

Lutenit hasn't posted since midday Saturday. I was absolutely not satisfied with his defense in post #48.

First off, I think

It may look like Alan and I are saying the same things but it's probably because we just have the same opinions.

is ridiculous.

"It may look like Alan and I are saying the same things"
It doesn't just look like it, you ARE saying the same things. Your vote, FoS, and the reasons for your vote and FoS have been the exact same. And to further clarify - he isn't saying the same things as you, you are saying the same things as him. Oh, and you're saying them

right after

he says them.

Just because my vote and FoS was practically the same as Alan's is not the most scummiest thing I've seen

Again, not "practically" the same, the

exact

same. And while it may not be the most scummiest thing you've seen, it is by far the most scummiest thing in this game.

And I won't go into how little stock I put into "the scummiest thing you've seen", as you've already told us that you are playing your first two games ever.

Unvote:Zyrconium, FoS: Lutenit

[JimmyJammas]

Thanks Nemesis =)

...But now I have to bust you.

I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have. But I don't count that as scumhunting.

I was going to ask you to clarify here, but as I was writing this, I think I understood what you were trying to say. The second sentence here refers to Xpom and not yourself, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Note also that 2nd least amount
.....
I would comment on Lutenit's post #77, but Alan and Nemesis have done a good job shooting it down, and I don't have much to add. Giving up on page 4 Lutenit? Your lynch is hardly imminent, you only have two votes on you. Your job is to convince the rest of the people who are suspicious of you that you are not scum. You're doing a very bad job at that. If you're not scum, you are one hell of a gift to them.
.....
Xpom, I like that you looked at the quality of Nemesis' posts instead of the quantity. I took offense to you implying that "stuff that critiques other people's logic" is useless though. Critiquing other people's logic is one of the few weapons townies have in this game. You have to question and critique everything everyone says because you know for a fact that two of the other people are trying to deceive you.

In other news, you've guarded yourself the same way Alan and Lutenit did earlier with "if I've been reading correctly" and "unless I've missed a post of his". It's like saying "this is my case, but if its wrong then don't hold me accountable". Just let your opinions fly, no need to guard them. Guarding like this makes you look scummy.
.....
Muerrto, just a reminder that when you come back I'm still looking for some clarification from you (see my post #72).

[JimmyJammas]

lol, not sure how that happened.
At the end of the paragraph to Nemesis I meant to add:

Note also that the 2nd least amount of scumhunting isn't admirable either. Just because you've done more than Xpom (who has done very little) doesn't mean anything to me.

[JimmyJammas]

Um, I don't recall guarding myself in that manner once. Could you please quote the post in which I did so?

Certainly: I was referring to your post #55 about Nemesis and the quick "ignore it" post #60 afterwards. It has the same "guarding" feel to it. I explain in more detail in post #62.
.....
Regarding Nemesis... I first read it the same exact way you've written it

I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have done less scumhunting than everyone else. But I don't count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone as scumhunting.

, but that doesn't make any sense. That's why I started posting, to ask him to clarify.

Here's why it doesn't make sense. If we read it like that, Nemesis has said:
1. I haven't done less scumhunting than everyone else.
2. But if you count two things I've done as scumhunting, then I have done less scumhunting than everyone else.

That can't possibly be the case. If you've done 1 piece of scumhunting, and that isn't less than everyone else, then how could 3 pieces of scumhunting ("if we count two things...") be less than everyone else?

So then I said, "oh, he must have been talking about Xpom. If you count two things that Xpom has done as scumhunting, then Nemesis

has

done the least amount, because Xpom has done more." But now that I think about it, that's not right either because Xpom never did those things. He never jumped on a bandwagon, and he never demanded somebody's lynch. In fact, has anybody demanded somebody's lynch yet?

I'm confused, lol. I'll go back to my original plan and just ask Nemesis to clarify, please.

[JimmyJammas]

I don't necessarily think Xpom was implying that critiquing other people's logic is useless. It seems like he was saying that

only

critiquing others' logic while adding nothing new is a bad thing.

You're right, he did not imply that it was useless. But he did imply that it wasn't scumhunting. My response was to show that I disagree, I think it's a very important tool to catch scum.

[JimmyJammas]

See, what would be nice is that if I do get lynched than people would not blame

me

if I was a townie. Seems like that going to happen.

lol, who should we blame? The mod? Alan?

You were first looked at because you said the exact same things as the person above you (who happened to be Alan both times). When we asked you to explain why, you said "we have the same opinions".

I can't speak for everyone else, but that certainly didn't put my suspicions to rest. If you get lynched and flip town, there's no one to blame but yourself. You have plenty of time to defend yourself, but I'm gonna need something better than "we have the same opinions".

[JimmyJammas]

So what you're saying is, Alan

inspired

you to have the same opinions?

Jokes aside, come on man. Have fun. I have one vote in this game, just like everybody else. I can't lynch you, it takes a majority to do that. I'm not even voting for you. In fact, I'm trying to help you. But you keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Now, back to the game, you've contradicted yourself. If Alan inspired you, and you got some of your ideas from him (obviously you thought they were good ideas), then why are you voting for him? You can't think he's scum and think he had good ideas at the same time.

Unless, of course, you're both scum.

[JimmyJammas]

@JJ: I assume my response satisfied you since you didn't reply to it.

Lol, yes, thanks.
.....
Nemesis, I went over your long ass post 104 just waiting for you to contradict yourself, and you didn't. And I think

I don't agree with your definition of scumhunting. I think it's possible to scumhunt without making a single vote.

To be honest I'd prefer not to try and force it. Look at what happened when Alan tried to force it... He did a U-turn in the same post.

are actually pretty good points.

On the other hand,

obviously everyone else thinks a vote with fairly bad reasoning is good scumhunting

Don't put me in with that crowd. I absolutely do not think that. When I said

Note also that the 2nd least amount of scumhunting isn't admirable either. Just because you've done more than Xpom (who has done very little) doesn't mean anything to me.

it was only to show that your first defense was lacking a bit, in that you only compared yourself to Xpom to try to make your amount of scumhunting look better. I didn't actually think you'd done the 2nd least amount of scumhunting. Xpom and Lutenit are fighting for that spot.


Oh, and I literally lol'ed at this:

I know, I'm doing the "your logic sucks" thing again, but damn, your logic sucks.

.....
I agree that we need more out of Zyrconium. Looking back on his posts, they have actually been pretty good, and I would like to hear more of what he has to say.

[JimmyJammas]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JJ!

I missed this yesterday. Thanks

[JimmyJammas]

Thanks Zyrc.

mainly held back because I'd like to see Day 2

If you are town...
1) Please don't hold anything back - if for some reason you get nightkilled, its very important that we know what you were thinking / who you suspected. The person who gets nightkilled becomes a confirmed townie, and thus someone whose ideas can be trusted.
2) Remember that you can still win even if you die.
3) We need everybody's input to help find scum. Self preservation is a trait that only the scum should posess.

Holding back = lurking = bad.
If there was a minor FoS, I'd throw it at you.

[JimmyJammas]

I was reading back over the thread, and I don't know why I let Alan off the hook so easily after he put Lutenit at L-1.

After Muerrto and I say that an L-1 on page 2 is not in the town's best interest, Alan says,

I don't think Lutenit seems scummy in the slightest, so I'll just unvote

You put him at L-1 but didn't think he looked scummy in the slightest? This is just plain irresponsible. What if somebody had lynched him and he flipped town? You would have been a contributing member to a lynch of a townie who you didn't suspect at all. This is very scummy.

When questioned, Alan goes on to say,

Well, I meant that in general, he seems more like an uninformed newbie than scum. But I forgot to look at the facts. His actions have been very scummy, but my gut tells me he's not scum. Based on most past games, my gut usually fails.

1) Forgetting to look at the facts is bad.
2) I don't see how you went from "not scummy in the slightest" to "His actions have been very scummy".
3) You're "guarding" again, with this gut thing. "Don't blame it on me, it was my gut. Oh, but don't blame it on my gut either, because it usually fails."

So if Lutenit turns out to be town, Alan can say "See? I told you he was more of a newbie than scum!".
And if Lutenit turns out to be scum, Alan can say "See? I told you his actions have been very scummy!"

While Zyrconium and I pointed out the flaw in your original defense at the time, Muerrto was the only one to mention a possible scumpair between Alan and Lutenit. Muerrto gets moved up on my pro-town list for that, and I

FoS (possible scumpair): Alan & Lutenit

, and

FoS: Alan

, because even if Lutenit is not scum, you have twice now put forth an argument, and then as soon as it was questioned, hastily took it back. Why are you trying so hard not to upset us? That's a big scumtell.

[JimmyJammas]

None of my reactions will be "I told you so"'s. They'll probably be one of the following: "Awesome! ... *posts suspect list*", "Crap! ... *posts suspect list*", or "*is silent*" (if I somehow die).

I was thinking more along the lines of, if Lutenit dies, I'm going to be looking back at what everybody said about him.
Let's say he flips town. I'll come to you, and say, "Alan thought Lutenit was very scummy, but he wasn't. Alan might be scum", which you could easily refute by saying, "No, I said he was more newbie than scum". And vice versa if he flips scum.

[JimmyJammas]

And Muerrto, I disagree that self-preservation isn't important for townies. I put the town before myself, but as townies, we need to try to lynch scum, rather than get ourselves lynched. So self-preservation is important, at least to some degree.

I'm actually the one who said that self-preservation shouldn't be a top priority for townies. Of course we shouldn't be careless, but if you're not helping the town because you're more interested in your own life, that's terrible.

[JimmyJammas]

Hey guys, sorry about the few days absence.

So who's his partner?

This is a toughy, as there are a few people who are "linked" to Lutenit.

First, and most obvious I suppose, would be Alan. Lutenit copied Alan's first vote and FoS. Lutenit has defended Alan (post #124). Alan voted Lutenit early on (post #32), and then five hours later unvoted and said Lutenit doesn't look scummy in the slightest (post #36).

Muerrto - Placed the 2nd vote on Lutenit but then warned everyone else not to put him back at L-1 (post #44).

Nemesis - See the points in Alan's post #55 that have to do with Lutenit.

Xpom Telo - Still is the only one not to vote for or FoS Lutenit. Trying to run distraction by focusing on Nemesis? FoSed by Lutenit (post #40).

If I had to pick right now, I would probably go with Alan. Xpom and Muerrto would be next. The case against Nemesis is worth mentioning, but isn't very strong in my opinion.

[JimmyJammas]

Happy New Year everyone!

My take on things:

On a personal note...

No one reacted to my post 137 that laid the cases for Lutenit's possible partners-in-crime. Despite the fact that combined with Muerrto's post immediately afterwards, every single person in the game was mentioned as a suspect (except me, I dont suspect myself). I expected some defenses, some "yeah I agree with that case", etc, but haven't gotten anything yet.

Alan's switch

2) I don't see how you went from "not scummy in the slightest" to "His actions have been very scummy".

Actually, neither do I. My opinions are easily swayed, which is something I need to work on. If scum can easily sway my vote, then I'm in big trouble.

The turning point look pretty likely to be post 40. If you look at Alans posts before(39) and after(49) it seems pretty obvious.

Not really. In both posts you referred to, Alan thinks Lutenit is scummy. There is no before and after here.

Also, I posed the question so that Alan would answer it. I think that his defense - in this case especially - is a very important piece of information.

If you've noticed, even though I think Lutenit has acted the scummiest so far, I haven't voted for him. Not only do I think we should try to find his partner first, I also ask myself "what happens if I'm wrong?". If we lynch Lutenit right now and he flips town, we're pretty much sunk. His alignment gives us very little information in the way of who to suspect for Day 2, when we will most likely be in lynch-or-lose. Really, the only piece of information that will be helpful is that Alan is his top scum suspect. But then again, Lutenit said he and Alan "have the same opinions", which, if Lutenit is town, points to Alan being town.

Now, look at the lynch Alan possibility. "If scum can easily sway my vote, then I'm in big trouble". If scum can easily sway a townie's vote, then the whole town is in big trouble. A townie that can be easily swayed by scum is no better than scum, really. If we're "wrong" about Alan, we're still kind of half "right", because he's as much a liability to the town as a scum is. Alan's "if I'm wrong" scenario is much better than Lutenit's.

Other cool sounding title

I think that Lieutenit has been pretty much universally agreed upon by the town as scum (I'm looking again, and I'm starting to "see the light" (or the blood) on him

A couple quick notes on this one:
A) Did you really have to "look again" to "start" to suspect Lutenit? I find it very hard to believe that you've missed his multiple scumtells to this point.
B) The town universally agreeing on anything is bad. We have two scum in our midst. If everyone agrees on something, it probably means we're wrong. Think about it: if Lutenit is scum, why would his partner agree with us?

I'm thinking that his partner would probably

say

that he agrees with us, but then try to throw suspicion on someone else. I'm actually looking at you and Zyrconium on that front; You much more than Zyrc, especially because of your delayed agreement.

Oh, and C) the town hasn't universally agreed that Lutenit is scum. Everyone agrees that he is suspicious, but only the people who are voting for him really agree that he is scum.

Yikes

Two votes on, and Alan panicked. At least that's the way his post 150 read to me, where he put Lutenit back at L-1. With Alan pretty much throwing Lutenit under the bus here, it's seeming less true that Alan and Lutenit are scumbuddies.

And I don't even know what to make of

You can kill me if you want; I probably won't be much help anyway.

Xpom, he's at L-1 now

When I first read

Xpom, he's at L-1 now.

, I didn't think much of it to be honest. Zyrc's post 152 is a good one, but I won't add this as incriminating evidence against Alan. Seemed like he was just answering Xpom when I read it.

Muerrto

Lol naw it's just I have the info I was looking for. I know who to suspect whether Lutenit comes up scum or not.

I have a good idea who you're talking about here, but if you die tonight, I'd like to to know who you suspected.

Zyrconium

I liked your post 161. The Alan / Muerrto scumpair is definitely an interesting one. When you look at both times Alan has made a list of suspects (posts 60 and 163), Muerrto has been at the bottom (but not very bottom) both times.

[JimmyJammas]

I think page 7 has been our most productive yet.

When I said "If scum can easily sway my vote, then I'm in big trouble," I didn't mean to imply that scum will be able to easily sway my vote.

I hope this is true. You can see where I'm coming from though, because right before that line you said

My opinions are easily swayed, which is something I need to work on

.....

And I don't feel that I'm no good to the town, although I'm quite happy you seem to feel I'm a liability. Do you feel Lutenit has been contributing more than I have?

I only think you're a liability if scum can easily sway your vote. We might as well have three scum if that's the case. And I absolutely do not think Lutenit has contributed more. In fact, I don't think he's contributed anything except a giant bullseye.

All I was saying was that if we mis-lynch you, I think we'd be in better shape than if we mis-lynch Lutenit. Obviously, I'd like to not mis-lynch at all. I was going for the lesser-of-two-evils angle. To be sure, Lutenit is still by far the scummiest player on my list, and just because his mis-lynch might forecast trouble doesn't mean he drops all suspicion. I just tend to be a little hesitant when the downside is so great. I was a townie who dropped the hammer on another townie in my last game, and it was a terrible feeling. I guess you can never be 100% sure on Day 1 though.
.....

I disagree that my "if I'm wrong" scenario is much better than Lutenit's

You've actually provided evidence to the contrary.

Here's your stated strategy from a previous game:

In my last game, I was a townie and was just waiting to be lynched. I asked people to just end my game already...Basically, I wanted to be the one to die in case we had a power role who might die instead of me.

And here's you in this game:

You can kill me if you want; I probably won't be much help anyway.

I'd love to be scumkilled!

You've pretty much just claimed vanilla townie. If we do mis-lynch, I'd rather lose a vanilla townie than a (possible) power role.

.....

To reiterate, I think Lutenit is much scummier than you are. I think you're the better mis-lynch.
Going back to

Do you feel Lutenit has been contributing more than I have?

Absolutely not, and that's the point. If we mis-lynch you, we have all of your contributions as a confirmed townie. If we mis-lynch Lutenit, we have nothing.

I'm not going to vote for you simply because you're a better mis-lynch. Especially in light of the fact that I feel you've claimed vanilla townie without really meaning to.

[JimmyJammas]

Huh?

This is post #39:

Well, I meant that in general, he seems more like an uninformed newbie than scum. But I forgot to look at the facts. His actions have been very scummy, but my gut tells me he's not scum. Based on most past games, my gut usually fails.

So, I think I've already FoS'd Lutenit. I'll also FoS: Xpom Telo for only having one post in which he votes without valid justification. Yes, he voted for me. No, it's not OMGUS.

In this post, Alan clearly believes Lutenit is scummy. Maybe the first line is confusing you? He's clarifying an earlier post. In this post, after he looks at the facts, Alan concludes that Lutenit is scummy, with only his gut opposing him. He even implies he would have FoSed if he hadn't already.

This is post #49:

Let me tell you, if Lutenit and I were the scum, I'd be just about ready to give up. That's the second time Lutenit has acted as my shadow, totally agreeing with me and even FoSing the same person I FoS'd. Well, it's my second game as well, so I'm also a newbie.

I understand it's your second game but I'm floored at your posts so far. I refuse to believe you're actually just a newbie playing like this...

I'm going to have to agree with you there. If it was Lutenit's first game, I'd understand. But one game can give you plenty of experience.

So, I'm thinking either Lutenit or Xpom Telo is definitely one scum. I don't know about the other, but it seems too easy for both of them to turn out scum.

Seems very scummy, and you've been lurking Xpom.

Has he been lurking, or just inactive? If he's lurking, that's an important piece of information.

Alan has clearly not changed his mind about Lutenit here.

So clearly, the turning point was not post #40.

In post #36 Alan says

I don't think Lutenit seems scummy in the slightest

. In post #39 he says that after he looked at the facts, Lutenit is very scummy. So the turning point was between #36 and #39. If I had to guess, the only line I can see that might have changed Alan's mind is

Even though he still hasn't defended himself? How has he made himself less scummy in your eyes?

But that's just a guess, hence why I asked the question in the first place.

... Muerrto, I just realized where you went wrong. The first Alan Redgown you quoted was from post #36, not post #39. We're on the same page I think. My main point in disputing what Zyrconium said was that Alan's change did not come between posts 39 and 49, it came between posts 36 and 39.

I realize that may look like a lot of silly semantics to some of you, but I'm not gonna be made to look a fool because I'm talking facts and others aren't. I don't know if you two did that on purpose, but you both get a

FoMS

just in case.

.....

I'd like a reeeeally good explanation as to how Lutenit being town and agreeing with Alan points to Alan being town. Since if they're both town then they both have no clue the other is town...

This whole scenario is based on the fact that we've lynched Lutenit and he flipped town. Ok, so Lutenit, now a confirmed townie, stated that he agreed with Alan on most things. You can't see how that points to Alan being town? It has nothing to do with the fact that they have no clue the other is town. We have a confirmed townie saying he agreed with a lot of what an unknown was saying. It's not proof in the pudding by any means, and my intention was not to defend Alan at all, but surely you can see the connection.

Also, I did say "points to", not anything stronger like "confirms". That was not an accident.

[JimmyJammas]

But you deserve a /slap for pointing out that he's pretty much claimed vanilla to the scum.

lol, ok, slap me. But I thought that was a damn fine piece of detective work on my part. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything yet.

The problem with this is Lutenit's answer "we both have the same opinions" is a crazy answer and cannot be true.

Well this is exactly what I meant by if we mis-lynch Lutenit we're screwed. He'd be a confirmed townie, we'd have to trust him. But we all think (well, you and I do anyway) that he's crazy.

Not only did he 'clear' Alan several times but he even tried to clear Alan by basically saying, if Lutenit's town then Alan's town. So we mislynch Lutenit and clear Alan who's actually scum and partnered with JJ.

I can see where you're coming from, and that's a reasonable theory. Hopefully I got across the fact that I wasn't trying to 'clear' Alan at all. As I said back in post #62, I would be careful of condemning or clearing Alan based on Lutenit.

[JimmyJammas]

Ok. Say I'm town and you're town. You suspect Nemesis. I also suspect Nemesis. I agree with you. Great. But how does that have anything to do with our roles? Now say I'm town and you're scum. You suspect Nemesis and I agree. It doesn't matter whether Nemesis is your scum buddy or a townie you're trying to frame, I STILL have absolutely no clue you're town or scum or whatever so it STILL has nothing to do with roles.

So Lutenit happening to agree with Alan does NOT even hint or even 'point to' Alan being town. Saying otherwise IS a defense of Alan and I already cited your multiple other defenses.

I think I'm understanding, but you have no confirmed townie in your example. Would it change anything?

[JimmyJammas]

Er, wait. I'll let it play out that you die. You are now a confirmed townie. What you're saying is that the rest of the town can't deduce my alignment, because either way, you and I would have agreed.

If that's right, I get it, and I think it makes good sense.

My question then is, how do we use anything the confirmed townie said or did? For instance, Lutenit voted Alan. Is that an auto condemnation of Alan? Can't we apply the same we-have-no-idea-of-role argument in that case?

I'm just taking your example and replacing "suspected" with "voted". Does that make sense?

I've never been to Day 2, I was nightkilled in my first game so I have no idea how this works. But surely we have to get information from somewhere, right? Because if the mafia killing (or attempt) is the only piece of information that is useful, then you can throw everything I said about mis-lynching out the window, it doesn't matter.

[JimmyJammas]

My defenses of Alan (as per Muerrto's post #179) were:

A) "Not really. In both posts you referred to, Alan thinks Lutenit is scummy. There is no before and after here."
B) "But then again, Lutenit said he and Alan "have the same opinions", which, if Lutenit is town, points to Alan being town."
C) "When I first read
Xpom, he's at L-1 now.
, I didn't think much of it to be honest. Zyrc's post 152 is a good one, but I won't add this as incriminating evidence against Alan. Seemed like he was just answering Xpom when I read it."
D) I think Alan claimed vanilla town by accident

I've already shot down A, I think we've worked out B, and I will grant you C and D.

[JimmyJammas]

Now looking at what other people said ABOUT a confirmed townie is important. Even though some of those people will be town themselves, some will be scum. So looking at who was trying to get Lutenit killed the most or what was said about Lutenit if he's confirmed town OR confirmed scum is very important.

Looking at what a confirmed townie said about others can be taken into account. But you have to remember it carries no weight because he was guessing too just like any other townie.

Does that clear it up?

Yes, that makes a lot more sense now. Thank you.

[JimmyJammas]

B) The town universally agreeing on anything is bad. We have two scum in our midst. If everyone agrees on something, it probably means we're wrong. Think about it: if Lutenit is scum, why would his partner agree with us?

I'm thinking that his partner would probably say that he agrees with us, but then try to throw suspicion on someone else. I'm actually looking at you and Zyrconium on that front; You much more than Zyrc, especially because of your delayed agreement.

This argument is awfully stinky. And full of WIFOM.

The WIFOM-iness of my second paragraph is fair. I was just thinking "what would I do in that situation"?
I do think there's some truth to "the town universally agreeing on anything probably means we're wrong" though.

.....

And thanks for the additional explanation, Nemesis. I understand now.

[JimmyJammas]

Ooh, ooh, do I get a turn too?

Imagine that four baby turtles are crawling around in some sewers, and they start crawling thru some secret ooze. A rat also crawls thru the ooze, and the ooze causes them all to grow to be huge and human-like. Then the rat teaches the turtles ninjitsu that he learned while he was in Japan, and they fight crime.

...wait, already taken? Oh. Nevermind then.

[JimmyJammas]

sorry guys, its a boring friday, lol.

[JimmyJammas]

But everybody is guilty until proven innocent, right?

That is correct. Until I have 100% indisputable evidence otherwise, I suspect every single person in this game. (And so should you.)

[JimmyJammas]

If they are actually the scum pair, even though I saw it, kudos to JJ for an excellent job of doing both. It's hard to distance yourself from someone while protecting them at the same time.

Lol, thanks for the kudos, but I think you're reading my indecision as craftiness. When I was writing all that, I wasn't sure where I stood on Alan. I had pointed out his "guarding" earlier in the game, his lack of conviction on a few things he said, his (twice) posting something and then taking it back very shortly after. I also thought that because he'd contributed so much more, and more players interacted with him, his mis-lynch could be more beneficial than Lutenit's, and I pointed that out.

But then I made the vanilla townie realization. If Alan had come out and claimed vanilla townie, I don't know that I would trust it. But I think I found his role by reading into what he said. Unless he planted all of that (kudos if you did), then I'm tempted to believe that he's vanilla town. Additionally, Alan hasn't disputed the claim since I made it, and this,

Yes, I meant that if I die, I might have saved a power role.

I think, is a confirmation by Alan.

Also, look at my post 184. Your suspicions of me are based largely on things that aren't true. In fact, one of my "defenses" (item A in 184) of Alan is really a good question directed at him. It should also be pointed out that both you and Zyrconium answered for him, and furthermore, answered incorrectly.

Muerrto, how much do you believe in Vanilla Alan? (yes, I just coined that). Because I think he's claimed vanilla town, and you've made up your mind to vote him.

FoS: Muerrto

pending your answer.

I'm thinking that you saw that Lynch Lutenit wasn't going to happen, and decided to go for the next easiest candidate, Alan. You needed a partner for him, and tried to use my questions to make me look scummy (I've already pointed out the flaws in that). Combine that theory with the fact that I think he's claimed vanilla town, and you've made up your mind to vote him, and you look suspicious.

.....

Also, I would like to hear more from Xpom and Zyrconium. You guys have stayed back and watched for the most part, and you have been able to successfully avoid any serious suspicion by doing so.

[JimmyJammas]

So if I "accidentally" post something along the lines of "I guess I won't be much help to the town" that would make me 99% town in your eyes?

I see your point, but no. Early on in the game, Alan mentioned a strategy he used in his last game. A few weeks later, I noticed he was using the same strategy. Like I said before, I thought it was a damn fine piece of detective work on my part. Maybe it wasn't, and I shouldn't be so sure about him.

As for the example with Muerrto, it was a simple clarification question and response, I had no reason to further respond. His post basically said "If I'm scum, I might lie to you." Which is pretty obvious, and I felt no need to comment on it.

.....

So my FoS on Muerrto loses some of its luster because I'm questioning Vanilla Alan. So I'll

unFoS: Muerrto

, but I'd still like to hear his opinion on Vanilla Alan (the theory).

.....

And of course Alan is going to agree with me thinking he's vanilla town. If he's scum, he'd love that. If he's a power role, he'd love that. If he's vanilla town, he'd love that.

[JimmyJammas]

Then he's scum pretending to be a power-role. There's no way he can claim to be a power role now.

If you don't agree with Vanilla Alan, you would still be open to him claiming a power role.

However, if he continues to not dispute Vanilla Alan, and then later on claims a power role, I agree that we should be very skeptical.


But Alan, if you really are vanilla town, why would you agree with my claim? I posted earlier that you would love it. Sure it would get you off of people's scumdar, that's great. But if you really wanted to protect the power roles, wouldn't you act like one of them to make yourself a bigger target for the nightkill? The first step towards that is disputing the vanilla claim, right?

Ugh, now I'm knee deep in WIFOM. Maybe we're debating strategy here. Truth is, I have no idea what Alan is, or what he's doing. I tend to assume the optimal play, but maybe he's not doing that either. (For instance, I don't consider "begging to die" the optimal play if you're vanilla town and you're trying to save the power roles.)

I think this is great discussion, and I'd love to hear everyone's opinions on it. What do you think of Vanilla Alan? Do you think he planted it?

To clarify: "Vanilla Alan" is the shorthand I've given to the theory that Alan is a vanilla townie.

[JimmyJammas]

Did you just defend Alan again? Multiple times?

Nope. I'm not defending him again, I'm telling you what I was thinking when I made the arguments in the first place.

I think you're using this 'claim' of vanilla townie to protect your scum partner

Take me out of the equation. You just noticed this pattern of Alan's, how much stock do you put in it?

You also seemed to completely skip over post #213, in which I agree with Nemesis's criticism of Vanilla Alan, and come to your conclusions even before you did.

You've done way too much defending of someone who you have no clue whether he's scum or not.

This is your entire case against me, and it's simply not true. I've posted it (184), posted a reference to it (210), and now I'll post it again. These are the things that you said are my "defenses" of Alan:

A) The moment at which Alan changed his mind.
1) You thought I was defending him because I didn't see the "obvious" change in Alan's mind between posts 39 and 49. In fact, there was no change between 39 and 49. Therefore, I was not defending him at all.

B) Lutenit being confirmed town and sharing the same opinions as Alan points to Alan being town
1) We talked through this one, and I agree that this was incorrect logic. Let it be known to everyone that this is false logic, and thus, not a defense of Alan.

C) I didn't think when Alan said "Xpom, he's at L-1 now", that it was a big deal.
1) This is the only point that remains true. I still don't think it's a big deal. If you look at the timestamps, it's very possible that Xpom wrote his post while Alan was writing his. Alan posted his, saw Xpom's, and answered Xpom's question.

D) I think Alan claimed vanilla town by accident.
1) As per post 213, I'm questioning this as well. My FoS against you was based on it, so I removed the FoS.

[JimmyJammas]

Ok, I'm gonna clear all this up, and make it really easy.

This whole thing revolves around the third section of my post #173:

I disagree that my "if I'm wrong" scenario is much better than Lutenit's

You've actually provided evidence to the contrary.

Here's your stated strategy from a previous game:

In my last game, I was a townie and was just waiting to be lynched. I asked people to just end my game already...Basically, I wanted to be the one to die in case we had a power role who might die instead of me.

And here's you in this game:

You can kill me if you want; I probably won't be much help anyway.

I'd love to be scumkilled!

You've pretty much just claimed vanilla townie. If we do mis-lynch, I'd rather lose a vanilla townie than a (possible) power role.

The way I see it, you can take one of the following positions:
1) Deny the pattern.
2) See the pattern, believe it was unintentional.
3) See the pattern, believe it was intentional.

1) means you don't take this as evidence either way against Alan. You chalk it up to simple coincidence, if that.
2) means you take this as evidence that Alan is a vanilla townie.
3) means Alan planted it. This could have two different meanings:
...A) you take this as evidence that Alan is scum.
...B) you take this as a clue left by Alan. But you don't know if you can trust Alan, so you remain unsure of his alignment. This is the same as him just coming right out and saying "I'm town".

For example, Muerrto sees the pattern (his first sentence), so he either falls into bucket #2 or #3 (supported by his second sentence):

Then there's the giving up and saying go ahead and lynch me. This means either you're scum or vanilla town and not a power role.

I have also added option 3B, which leaves open the possibility of Alan being a power role.


"Vanilla Alan" is the shorthand I gave to option #2. I asked for people's opinions about it, but I'll rephrase to an even better question:

To All: What position do you take: #1, #2 or #3? If #3, A or B?

To answer my own question, I fall into bucket #2. I see the pattern, and I don't think that Alan placed it intentionally. Call it defending him if you want, but that's what I think. You are, as always, free to disagree with me.

I really do want everybody's opinion on this, so please respond.

.....

All that said, I think the following should make more sense now:

Good. So your current stance on "Vanilla Alan" is?

I questioned the crap out of it, but as I said above, I fall into bucket #2.

I think it has gone past fishing. Now JJ is proclaiming Alan is a vanilla townie to anyone who will listen.

My FoS on Muerrto earlier was misguided. This is just evidence pointing towards something, not a universal truth. At the time I thought I'd pegged Alan for sure, but now I feel its just one piece of a larger puzzle. So if someone disagrees with me, cool. Tell me where you think I went wrong, I'll listen.

.....

I've already mentioned this:

Random unimportant short post: Actually, I probably deserve the /slap more. If I wanted to help protect the power roles, I should have acted more like a power role in an attempt to get myself scumkilled.

Ah, right. Forgot about that one.

Official Vote Count

LutenitPowwel - 1 (Alan Redgown)
Nemesis - 1 (Xpom Telo)

Alan Redgown - 2 (LutenitPowwel, Nemesis)

Not Voting - 3 (JimmyJammas, Muerrto, Zyrconium)

4 to Lynch

[JimmyJammas]

And for 3b, it should be "the same as him coming out and saying "I'm a vanilla townie".

Yes, that is correct, thank you.

[JimmyJammas]

And if you did, be more careful in the future whether Alan is town or not. Because as town, you can't just trust someone implicitly.

It's not really that I trust him, I just don't think (not to insult Alan personally) that he was smart enough to do that (hint he was town via metagame, plant the seed, wait for someone to notice it).

did you see it as a chance to try and 'clear' him from his lynch -1 mistakes earlier?

I was actually the one who steered this ship towards Alan when Lutenit was at L-1, I'm certainly not trying to clear him. I have used his metagame thing as evidence towards him being town, but that doesn't mean he is town, and that doesn't mean anybody else has to use it as pro-town evidence for him either.

I think you made a mountain out of a mole hill

I don't want faulty logic or anything less than the truth to shape people's opinions. I'll fight as long and as hard as it takes to clear those up if I have to. It got to be three pages, but I've pretty much said the same things over and over again.

[JimmyJammas]

Yeah, you found it Zyrc. That's when the course changed.

I guess it's unfair to say that I steered it away from Lutenit, because that was not the intent of that post. But it did have the consequence of focus being shifted off of Lutenit and onto Alan.

.....

Constantly pushing that point can be interpreted as trying to clear him.

I agree. I'm not trying to push that point as much as I'm trying to defend myself though. Part of my defense rests on that point, so I have to bring it up.

Like I said before, I refuse to let things less than the truth shape people's opinions, especially of me. As a result, I got really upset when Zyrc and Muerrto kept posting their "no contradiction?" posts that made me look like an idiot. Especially in light of the fact that

they were wrong

. I let the emotion spill into this whole clusterpuck, and I apologize. Ironically, I ended up making

myself

look like an idiot.

.....

Quick hit thoughts:
* Lutenit was at L-1 and has since disappeared.
* Alan, very active in the beginning of the game, has some suspicion (2 votes plus Muerrto's strong suspicion), and he too has disappeared.
* I'm still here, defending myself at every turn.

[JimmyJammas]

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

I just assumed that with mantras like "Lynch All Liars", anything less than the truth should always be pointed out and disposed of as quicky as possible, and that everyone would be on the same page on that front.

(Go back to the page and a half I spent at the beginning of this game on the stupid dice rolls.)


But I do know what happens when you assume.

[JimmyJammas]

So I don't fall into any of your buckets.

I hate to be a stickler, but you pinged my not-accurate radar again:

What he DID do is try to use metagaming by saying since he acted this same way as town then obviously he's town.

You see the pattern and don't think it was accidental. You fall into bucket 3. From your other posts, it's pretty safe to say you're in 3A.

[JimmyJammas]

Active weekend!

My thoughts:

no pattern, just metagaming

The metagaming

is

the pattern...

JimmyJammas- Although he was not very active at the beginning of the game

Meh. You guys had an active weekend early on, and I said I'll rarely post on weekends. I would hardly call myself inactive though.

He also seems convinced that I'm a vanilla townie

Don't be so sure, you're still second on my list of scummy players. I thought I unearthed a gold mine earlier, but other players have shown me that it was silly to put all my marbles in one basket. While some marbles still remain in that basket, I have a lot of marbles in your "scum basket" as well.

I would have edited my post.

You ... can't ... edit ... posts ... ?

In many non-Mafia Scum games of mafia, people don't analyze every minute detail of every game.

I'll own that one. This is my second game of mafia ever, none in real life, none on other forums. The only thing I know to do is look for contradictions / lies. I don't think this has been painstaking though, has it?

Do you see the common denominator?

Great post.

.....

I used the "View Posts by Player X" function before

How do you do this?

[JimmyJammas]

I was referring to the "Display posts from previous:" function at the bottom of the screen. You just select a player to see all of that player's posts in the thread.

I never even noticed that, thanks.

.....

Also, I forgot to comment on

Up to you guys if we wanna just end it and move on.

I'll answer this personally, at least. I mentioned previously that I hammered an innocent to end Day 1 in my first game, and it was a terrible feeling. Not that I'll never hammer again, but this is the exact same situation (not a lot of information to be had), so I will not be voting simply to end the day.

[JimmyJammas]

My point was that I'm not going to vote simply to end the day, hammer or not.

[JimmyJammas]

As much as I want to defend myself, I'm sick of bashing my head into a wall saying the same things over and over again. By continuing to answer and defend against your repetitive, baseless accusations, I'm actually making myself look scummy because it looks like I'm overreacting.

For instance,

My point was that I'm not going to vote simply to end the day, hammer or not.

...Besides, you would've been vote 3, not 4. It wouldn't have ended the day so it was a poor excuse.

Do I really have to respond to this? Can I quote myself? Because I would just

quote the quote that you quoted

.

I'm hoping the other players' intelligence is enough so that they can see through your baloney because I'm sick of answering it. I'll do my duty as a townie, but I will no longer be responding to crap like this. It started with when did Alan change his position, it continued on through the metagaming discussion, and here it is again. Kudos if you're scum, I fell for it for a while. Now I'm done.

.....

That gets me thinking... Perhaps an

FoS: Muerrto

is in order. He certainly has struck me as quite the opportunist.

Two people have now been in serious L-1 situations (I'm discounting the first time Lutenit was at L-1, on page 2). The only player to be voting for both of them is Muerrto.

Funny too, how he was so sure Alan and I were partners since two pages ago but never voted. Now people want to end the day - which gives him an easy defense for a vote - and he votes.
.....

Maybe a Muerrto / Lutenit pairing?

Remember "Do NOT put him (Lutenit) back at L-1"?
Might also explain why he's so convinced Alan is scum (taking heat off Lutenit).

This would discount the fact that Muerrto was on Lutenit's L-1, but maybe he was trying to cut off his reckless partner and go it alone?

Anyway, wanted to throw that out there in case I die tonight.

.....

Also, I have a question: All game we've talked about how we'd be in Lynch or Lose tomorrow if we mis-lynch today. Technically speaking, is that right? In this setup, we know we have a Doc. If he saves someone tonight and Night 2, we would open a Day 3 despite two mis-lynches, right? I know that doesn't have a high percentage chance of happening, but as far as Lynch or Lose goes, there's still a chance we don't Lynch and we don't Lose, right?

[JimmyJammas]

Yes, but "we've got to lynch right or we'll be in NLORLODSOL"(No lynch or right lynch or doctor save or lose) isn't as catchy.

hahahahahaha

Official Vote Count

LutenitPowwel - 1 (Alan Redgown)
Nemesis - 1 (Xpom Telo)

Alan Redgown - 3 (LutenitPowwel, Nemesis, Muerrto)

Not Voting - 2 (JimmyJammas, Zyrconium)

4 to Lynch

[JimmyJammas]

Wrong.

Post #260:

As for the deathwish... I'm willing to grant it at this stage. No townie should ask to die 3 or 4 times via lynch in one game...

Post #261:

It's just that I basically want to get this day over with. Not because I'm scum, but because I'm bored.

I'd even go so far as to say that LYLO would be more fun than this.

Your self-quote was from post #262. Clearly it was not you who wanted end the day.

.....

It's not that I'm taking it personally as much as that you're accusing me, so I'm responding.

My first impression of you was that you are an intelligent person and I still think that. Lately I feel you've been acting dumb. Act dumb all you want, but I'm not going to let myself die because of it.

[JimmyJammas]

Instead of defending himself or at least attacking someone else Alan simply gave up. He's not even defending himself anymore... Why does that not bother you?

I'm trying to decide between Lutenit and Alan. It does bother me, but they both did that so I can't use it to justify a vote for one and not the other.

[JimmyJammas]

FoS: Xpom

For lurking all of Day 1 (11 posts in 12 pages), and for your play when people were close to lynch.

You showed up when Lutenit was close (Alan ended up taking the heat for you) and you succeeded in drive-by-hammering Alan.


The fact is, this FoS is way too late. We're in lylo now, and I have absolutely no information about you. Was your "argument" with Nemesis just distancing? You kept your vote on him all day, but were interested in voting both Lutenit and Alan when they got close to the hammer.

[JimmyJammas]

#2 You kept your head down... Although sometimes that's a power-role tell so I'm not sure if lurking would count for you rather than against you.

Yeah, that's true. Well, we know he wasn't the Cop. And if he's the Doc, he can't help unless we get to night. If he can help us now, I want him to help us now.

So the question becomes, is Lutenit crafty enough to currently just be lurking even though he's been replaced in another game? Or is he town like I said and therefore didn't affect the night choices?

I'm currently going with the latter. That's why I'm ruling him out at the moment.

Man, this looks familiar. This is exactly what I did with Alan. No way in hell was he crafty enough to set all that up in his 2nd game ever.

[JimmyJammas]

I think you misunderstood my argument yesterday. I didn't say he was setting it up, I said you were. I was saying YOU were crafty enough to be pulling the whole vanilla Alan thing and I stand by that. I still think you did it.

But even if I wasn't saying that, then what you've just said is that you agree Lutenit is town, because Alan wasn't actually setting us up and was in fact town. So he wasn't actually crafty enough on his second game ever, he was actually town. Sooo..

I'm lost, where do you stand on Lutenit? Because you seemed to be calling me out on counting out Lutenit but what you just said supports Lutenit being town.

Careful with this one. I said that you did the same thing I did (Metagame-cleared someone). I didn't say that I agree with you.

I think I see where you went wrong in your reasoning. Just because we had some pro-town metagame info about Alan and he flipped town doesn't mean that because we have some pro-town metagame info about Lutenit that he'll flip town too.

That said, where do I stand on Lutenit? Well, I'm not going to clear him, but I do put a little stock in your findings, so he's not my top suspect either.

.....

I feel like you and I have been focusing exclusively on each other, and I've realized that that has resulted in me putting up some blinders to the other players. I'm going to have to step back a bit and really see what's going on. I'm nervous that with Lutenit "gone" and Xpom saying that he's only going to participate on a question-by-question basis, that you, me and Nemesis are just going to end up arguing with each other until one person feels strongly enough about a vote, and then the scum will seize the opportunity and end the game.

.....

How would he be able to help us now by being the Doc?

I meant that I want him to participate in the discussions, not just sit back and hope to make it to night so he can use his Doc powers. If we vote the wrong person, there won't BE a night.

[JimmyJammas]

Exceptions to Stoofer's 1st Law include the case where the lynchee self-votes, and where the lynch goes through at deadline with fewer than 4 votes. Also where the mafia are really smart or the town is really dumb.

/facepalm

We had a player give up (maybe 2), and the mafia killed the Cop on Night 1. What happens if the mafia are really smart AND the town is really dumb?

[JimmyJammas]

I was going to post that if Lutenit is replaced, he's probably not the doctor, and probably not the mafia roleblocker.

But Miscellaneous Rule #1 says, "If you have a night role, your choices are due to me by the posted deadline. If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline, no choice will be made."

So we have no idea if the doctor or the roleblocker actually submitted a choice. The only thing that we know for sure is that the doctor was not successful if he did submit one.

Hopefully his replacement is active, I feel this game slowing down fast.

[JimmyJammas]

Well, my wish for an active player certainly came true, eh?

I've said this before and I'll mention it again, I've never been to a day 2, and I've never dealt with massclaims, so I'm not sure what to think yet. I'll be reading carefully what people have to say, at least this game is back on its feet again.

[JimmyJammas]

Sorry Nemesis, you posted while I was posting. Hi.

[JimmyJammas]

Though I think I answered your question in my post anyway, lol

[JimmyJammas]

Vote: Muerrto

lol

[JimmyJammas]

I was just making sure you were still here

[JimmyJammas]

Nice of you to know my posting pattern

[JimmyJammas]

That's it, right?

Thanks to Xtoxm for joining?

[JimmyJammas]

hahaha

[JimmyJammas]

Yeah, I was worried Xtoxm was just setting a trap, too.

I forgot about that "whos online" thing, that's a nice feature.

And I too was worried Muerrto had me pinned. Sorry for taking it so far man, its the only way I could think of to get out of it.

I learned a lot from this game though, thanks to all.

[JimmyJammas]

lol it probably took a while to write all that. That is pretty funny though.

[JimmyJammas]

So you guys wanna play 3-way rock, paper, scissors or something?

[JimmyJammas]

People can be invisible

ooh, thanks for the tip.

[JimmyJammas]

LOL. Should we tell him it's over?

Sorry man, you died a little while ago.

lol, I'm still laughing at this, great line

I had some real butterflies there for a second though. I knew if one of us voted we were as good as sunk, I was really worried about Xtoxm sitting here waiting for that. When I said "Hi", I really wanted to say "Hi, I'm here, yes, lets vote"

[JimmyJammas]

ok, gonna head out. gg all

[JimmyJammas]

And JJ, dangit I KNEW you were scum but couldn't convince anyone else.

Lol, yep, you had me. I learned a lot from you though, thank you.

[JimmyJammas]

So Nemesis & JJ did you really NK me just because I was quiet or were there other tells?

Lol, it was basically process of elimination, tell you the truth.
Alan was already dead,
Muerrto and I had been going at it, so if we killed him, it would look bad for me,
Xpom was strongly suspicious of Nemesis, so same deal there,
We really didn't see anypoint in killing Lutenit, because he was a top suspect the day before, and we figured he might slip up and get himself killed Day 2 anyway, so you were the only choice left.

The roleblock was then between Muerrto and Xpom, bc we thought they would be more dangerous with information than Lutenit would.

[JimmyJammas]

Additionally, we really didn't have any strategy going into the game, we just talked about claiming vanilla town if we were forced to claim. Also, Nemesis told me if I got close to lynch but could get him lynched instead, to go ahead and do it, bc I was the roleblocker.

[JimmyJammas]

Oh and JJ, did you really honestly see a vanilla town claim in Alan or did you do that to buddy up and look town when he died? It was, as I said earlier in the game, quite crafy and very well played.

Lol, thanks. I did actually see that claim, and when I saw it I almost wet myself in excitement. I knew if I could back him and get him killed at the same time, it would be smooth sailing for me.

I took it a little too far when I FoSed you for not believing me, however, and then I had to spend the rest of Day 1 trying to get out of that. As you said, I was way, way too sure.

PS - Backing someone and getting them killed at the same time is a hard thing to do.

I kept trying to play both sides of the fence, and I think it was Zyrc who called me out at one point when I said "I steered this ship in Alan's direction" or something, and then I had to try to "correct" what I'd said.

Alan quitting both hurt and helped me there. It helped because he died, but it hurt because my backing of him didn't look nearly as strong as it would have if he hadn't given up.

And I knew enough not to start Day 2 with "told you so!" I hoped most people would come to the "JJ was right" conclusion without me having to say anything.

[JimmyJammas]

Thanks JJ for being scum with me, it was interesting to say the least.

lol, yeah, you too. I'm glad we were both on at the end there.

I found myself skipping over your posts in the beginning because I didn't want to comment on them, right or wrong, lol.

It's funny how you especially take note of what other people say about your partner though. It was really hard to stay out of you and Xpom's discussion, there were a lot of times where I wanted to jump in and defend you. I did once early on, but I thought that I should stay out of it just in case things went south for you. You looked like you were handling yourself fine too, so that made it easier to stay out.

[JimmyJammas]

I think that was a very risky tack for them to take.

I don't know, the first thing everybody says in Lynch or Lose is "don't vote", for precisely what happened here. The only risk would be if one of us voted, and you came in and unvoted before our 2nd vote.

If we hadn't been online at the same time, we wouldn't have voted. Our first reactions to your vote indicate as much. Then we realized we were both on, and could end the game.

Also, if we hadn't ended it, we could have argued later that you are scum, because the scum didn't jump on your vote. There's a bit of WIFOM there of course, but I still would have put forth the argument, because it makes sense at first glance. The optimal play for scum would have been to end the game and they didn't. The only explanation as to why they didn't would be because they couldn't, which points to you being scum.

That makes the assumption that everyone always chooses the optimal play, which of course is not always the case. But like I said, I still would have thrown it out there.

The longer you kept your vote alive, the stronger that argument gets, too, because the scum get a better chance for them both to be online at the same time, increasing the odds that they make the optimal play.

[JimmyJammas]

yeah, you too Xpom, gg.

Well way to clear yourself...

At least we know you arn't scum or you'd have hammered.

aww, you were defending me even though at the time you thought I'd just screwed you over royally... what a good teammate

[JimmyJammas]

Oh, additionally, during this game many people mentioned how scum often leave their partners out to dry, is that really the case?

[JimmyJammas]

thanks guys, you were good ICs.