Newbie 528 - Game Over!

[Nemesis]

Muerrto and Nemesis are your ICs.

I am? Heh, I havn't played a game in over 6 months but ok.

LutenitPowwel does seem "bandwagoney" but I can't say that would merit a vote from me... And voting for him would make me equally "bandwagoney"... I like that word.

I've always wondered, why to people always trust dice rolls to be true?

Surely anyone can write Dice roll in bold and put whatever they want in quote tags?

[Nemesis]

Zyrconium, you realize that you are starting a reason to bandwagon yourself...

But he didn't join one. Everyone starts a bandwagon with a random vote, it's just you jumped on one.

[Nemesis]

Lutenit, bandwagoning in the random-voting stage is usually not the most intelligent thing to do.

It usually happens though. Recently I've read quite a few 4 page newbie games. It is scary how people see a wagon growing and lynch people without any reason at all sometimes.

The thing is, you gave a reason and voted then he gave the same reason and voted, so he's agreeing with you. If you don't expect anyone to agree with you, why vote page 1?

This is why I dislike random voting. (Although you had a reason that has been used to semi-random vote before, so I'm not sure to interpret the 2 vote bandwagon as random or semi-serious as you gave a reason for your vote but just said it was the random voting stage, (which it is), so I'm not sure whether you both consider your votes random or what.)

I'm guessing the way everyone knows Muerrto was last to confirm was because the mod said so and I missed the updated post?

[Nemesis]

No, it just took Muerrto a while to confirm. And I check the forums often. You can call that scummy, but I call it having no life.

lol. No one said that was scummy, guilty conscience?

I just meant that whenever I checked the thread I didn't see a list of people who hadn't confirmed or a note saying we were waiting for X or anything like that. So I'm just curious.

To LutenitPowwel: Please clarify how serious your vote was, if you could do that in your next post that would be helpful, instead of just attacking people as a defence. That doesn't work, especially if you use bad reasons.

If your vote wasn't serious at all, you had already put someone halfway to lynch without 3 people even posting in the thread so it was irresponsible.

[Nemesis]

Vel-Rahn Koon bolded each player's name after that person had confirmed.

Thanks, that sounded like something I could miss when I scanned the thread.

I think LutenitPowwel's second vote on Muerrto should be looked at not for its bandwagoneyness, but because of the reason he gave, and his defense of that reason.

The problem with that is, he hasn't given a defence. He pretty much just said "OMGUS" and left.

But there is no reason not to trust a dice roll, because its real output can't be faked.

Thanks, I've always wondered about that. As I don't use dice rolls I whole lot I don't really pay much attention to them.

Those last ones look pretty real... Although I don't know what the mod fixed, so he could have made them real.

As a rule, I don't edit player posts. The most I'll do is add comments (like this ). Easiest way to check if a die roll is "real" is to hit the quote button and it will show you the text that the player typed. - Mod

So we're all stuck waiting for LutenitPowwel. I may as well

Vote LutenitPowwel

to remind him we're waiting on him.

[Nemesis]

Heh. I saw the mod claim red and dark red text in the OP, so I assumed. That's just funny.

Alan Redgown, Lynch - 1 was a little excessive there. I only voted for him because he only had 1 vote and might have thought he could just avoid us as long as someone else had more votes than him.

For some reason, people have critisized me for being bandwagony and I'm getting bandwagoned for that...

I've justified my vote for you. It wasn't random, it was to try to prompt you to defend yourself. But you still havn't done that.

My reason for voting for you was purely to remind you to post and it worked so; I'll

unvote

, I don't want you at lynch -1 if someone else jumps on the bandwagon, and you posted which was why I voted. But can you at least give a reason you placed your vote? You were asked to do so over a page ago.

The continued lack of a defence is making you look scummier and scummier to me.

FoS LutenitPowwel

But right now, I don't think Lutenit seems scummy in the slightest,

Even though he

still

hasn't defended himself? How has he made himself

less scummy

in your eyes?


LutenitPowwel, did you see how Alan defended himself without attacking everyone else? That's pretty much all everyone wants from you.

[Nemesis]

It's been almost 12 hours without a post, I thought this game was moving at a half decent speed?

Happy Scumday, Nemesis!

[Nemesis]

Thanks everyone.

I think I'll have to observe more so i'll unvote on Muerrto.

You still havn't said why you voted him in the first place.

FoS:Xpom Telo

Instead of defending yourself, you seem to be attacking someone in every post. Although you do at least have some half decent reasoning (only post was a vote) this time, but it's not that great and it's not that yours either.

Not only did you place him at lynch -1 on page 2 but you knew it, said you were looking for reactions, basically said if someone hammered we'd have to lynch them day 2, and then said you don't find him scummy in the slightest AFTER you put him in danger of being lynched?

I want something better than this.

Not sure if you'll get it. I agree it is a scummy thing to do, Mikeburnfire did it in my last completed game and turned out to be scum, but I think I can remember some townie doing it before, or at least something simular, not sure if it was lynch -1.

Vote: Lutenit

Do NOT put him back at lynch -1 however.

You said we were out of the random stage yourself. So at this point voting is supposed to mean something. You undermine your vote by telling people not to put him back at lynch -1. I personally don't think he should be put at lynch -1 either, but I fail to see what the point of your vote is if you are going to demand no one else votes for him.

Anyone else seeing a possible pair between Alan and Lutenit already? Granted Lutenit would be telegraphing it if it was but he said he's new. And it would definitely explain why Alan wasn't worried about placing Lutenit at lynch -1 and why he was so sure the hammer would be scum since if they were partners he'd definitely be sure it wouldn't be.

It seems a little obvious, it'd be crazy WIFOM for scum to actually do this. While it is a possibility I'm more tempted to connect you with Lutenit, his first vote was on you, and you voted for him earlier while telling everyone else not to.

Weird distancing, but still.

And it would definitely explain why Alan wasn't worried about placing Lutenit at lynch -1 and why he was so sure the hammer would be scum since if they were partners he'd definitely be sure it wouldn't be.

But if Lutenit is scum and he got placed at -1 then hammered, scum would have been hammered. So that slightly takes away scumminess from the hammerer. And 1 scum down day one is the worst start town can have.

It would have made more sense if they put someone they knew to be a townie at -1. Then they take out a townie and shed suspicion on another townie while making 2 NKs (unless the doc gets lucky).

seems horribly obvious

It does sound horribly obvious. But don't ever let yourself fall into the "too scummy to be scum" mindset. In the last completed game I played, MBF made the same -1 play that Lutenit did (on his scumbuddy) and almost got away with the too scummy to be scum thing. It took ages of hounding him for him to NK the guy doing the hounding which led the town to lynch them both as the hounder preposed.

Although as I said earlier, some town aligned person must have done this sometime... Purely because of the laws of probability. So don't count the lynch -1 play as a 100% scumtell.

I'd really like to hear some good defense from both of them before I discount it.

So we're waiting on those two, would it be crazy to guess that Lutenit copies Alan? I'd ask for Lutenit to post first, but I don't have much faith that he would.

Alan has at least given some reasoning, and isn't anywhere near as scummy as Lutenit.

Also, would you mind explaining the point of your vote? While I understand why you made it, I don't see why no one should put Lutenit at lynch -1. It wouldn't lynch him and by voting for him you are effectively protecting him.

If he shows up scum I'd consider the vote to protect him thing a little suspicious. Surely one of the ways FoSes are used is when you'd like to vote but would like to be a little cautious. But almost everyone has FoSes him already and for the same reasons... So a vote would be in order. You have taken that away from us, whether we want to or not. I really don't like that.

[Nemesis]

Was that allright?

It was something, my urge to vote for you has lowered slightly. Although you waited until the end of page 2 to finally defend yourself, so there's still quite a big urge to vote left.

Any particular reason you waited so long?

Just to correct you (not as an offense), I'm playing 2 games at a time. This is just the second one I signed up for.

No offense.

So cautious now. Perhaps as you've seen yet another person question you. Almost everyone in the game has FoSed or voted for you at one time or another, so I guess I could understand why you were so cautious, but to be honest I still think you come across scummy here.

Did above.

Thanks.

Although I don't think we should take it for granted he is scum and dismiss all other options. If he turns out to be town all the scum could currently be thinking they could just lurk and assume we will lynch LutenitPowwel eventually, whether or not they post.

I take your post to mean that we should be looking for LutenitPowwel's potential scumbuddy during the rest of the day, and I agree that if we have time to learn more then we should. For this reason I'd like to see a few more posts by the inactive players.

[Nemesis]

Ok, so I had a sudden feeling that perhaps Nemesis is Lutenit's partner in crime.

Any particular reason for the sudden feeling?

Says Lutenit seems bandwagoney, but that won't merit a vote from him. Questions authenticity of JJ's die roll.

I just asked why

all

dice rolls were trusted. And yeah, Lutenit was bandwagony but it was his first post... This guy is bandwagony in another thread... Again, I don't vote for him.

31. "I may as well vote Lutenit..." (This was after a few others had already given reasons to suspect Lutenit.)

FoS Alan Redgown

for taking my words out of context. I gave an additional reason for that vote, it was to spur Lutenit into a response. We were all waiting on him.

And I'd already posted some stuff regarding Lutenit. You make it sound like I did a Fritzler and waltzed in after lurking for 5 pages and just voted someone for no reason.

and (basically) that I am still a top suspect.

No, second after Lutenit.

Some of his posts seem like warnings to Lutenit to shape up his game and defend himself more.

I'm sorry but what? Telling someone why you find them scummy is how the game works... This gives them something to defend themselves against. Most of what I say are observations. These observations are useful for if I get lynched or NKed and the living want to see my point of view when they can trust me more.

(It is useful to be able to search through someone's posts and say "hey the townie thought X was scummy and he thought Y was scummy and he died.)

Nemesis has not been completely anti-Lutenit until recently.

I'm still not 100% anti-Lutenit... Unless a confirmed cop posts "X is scum" then I'm not 100% anti anyone.

Basically, Nemesis could be Lutenit's scumbuddy, as he has not been overly offensive towards him, and has subtly accused other people at times.

And as for the changing the subjects thing, I simply asked things I couldn't remember or didn't know. Although I got put into the game as IC, I havn't played for a year so I had some newbie questions and figured this place was good as any. But this isn't changing the subject, it's adding a new one. People can still talk about things in posts above mine.


I'm sorry. I didn't realize everyone needed to be overly agressive and 100% against everyone... And of course I'm going to accuse other people, there are 2 scum left in this game. Killing 1 would still leave one. So even if Lutenit is scum, that still leaves one alive.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP:

The other thread point was a little vauge. I am talking about Disciple Slayer (post subject 7, I think.)

[Nemesis]

LOL.

But if Lutenit is scum and he got placed at -1 then hammered, scum would have been hammered. So that slightly takes away scumminess from the hammerer. And 1 scum down day one is the worst start scum can have.

It would have made more sense if they put someone they knew to be a townie at -1. Then they take out a townie and shed suspicion on another townie while making 2 NKs (unless the doc gets lucky).

LOL. Fixed. Thanks. That's what I get when I recontruct a sentance and forget to double check it. My point was just what you pointed out. The scum should be part of the lynch on their buddy play is worst play scum can do day 1 from a numbers point of view. (Whether the scum can get something to hide behind and get some townies lynched doing it to even the score is up for debate.)

Lutenit, why are you so worried about offending Alan?

And it wasn't just that. He was posting a fact and saying no offense... That's why that post really stuck out to me.

Wait, where did he say that?!

Page two, trying to point out why someone's reasoning was off. I reworded my post but forgot to change the key sentance. The fixed paragraph is at the top of my post.

It was an obvious typo btw. From the rest of my post you can tell that I meant town lynching scum is their best start and scum being lynched in their worst start.

If I survive until Day Two, I probably will write more analyses.

Bargaining won't help you avoid a lynch... If anyone truely fears your analysis it might get you a NK though. If a bandwagon starts on you and you are truely town then you might want to post analysises if you believe they can help the town that much. (And if you are town and die then a confirmed point of view from a townie can be helpful.)

Vote count please?

My first point, read posts... It shouldn't be hard to notice mod comments either.

My second point, when are you going to say why you are suspicious of me? I strongly dislike when people say they will post something and don't. I know there was only 6 hours in between your posts, so you could be at work. But I'm expecting the post you said you would post fairly soon.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: I forgot I put that first "LOL" at the start of my post... I now seem like some kind of clown. *shudders*

[Nemesis]

Well, I seriously doubt I would get NK'd over my analyses.

I seriously doubt you'd get killed over them too, but you seem to think you won't make it to day 2 and you sounded like you were subtley trying to bargain. I decided to say that you should either post them or stop trying to give anyone who doesn't want to be analysed a reason to kill you.
Saying "I will make a really good post or 5 if you don't lynch me" only makes the scum want to kill you more, surely? If as you say, they have helped you win games, then why advertise this?

you are saying the same things as him. Oh, and you're saying them right after he says them.

This is true. Having the same opinion as someone else shouldn't make you FOS and vote the same as someone else.

[Nemesis]

Happy birthday JimmyJammas.

He's done no scumhunting whatsoever; instead, he's just been engaging the conversation about either irrelevant topics or stuff that critiques other people's logic. He's had no contributions or attempts to find scum, which, if I've been reading correctly, means that he's not doing his job.

He has no suspicions, unless I've missed a post of his.

I've given my opinion on stuff, generally done more than you have done, I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have. But I don't count that as scumhunting.

It is my opinion that forcing scum to reveal themselves on page 3 is a little hard. I generally wait for someone to do something scummy.

He has no suspicions

Apart from Lutenit. Alan might look bad depending on his lynch. I don't have anything solid enough to make me vote for someone other than Lutenit, but I'm cautious with votes anyway.

I have a couple of "there's something wrong here but I can put my finger on it"s but those are pointless. No one can defend themselves from feelings so I generally don' share any opinions of mine that cannot be debated properly.

I havn't made a list of suspects yet, but that's because some people have less than 10 posts. So I'm working with virtually nothing. It takes a very obvious* thing to get someone bandwagoned this early.

* Although obvious things don't make everyone scum.

I don't really see why you are voting my due to my lack of contributions to discussion. While not everything I say is meaningful and important, I still think I post more meaningful things than lurkers.

Would it be too easy for Lutenit and Xpom Telo to both be scum?

Well considering almost everyone is being accused of being scum with Lutenit I don't think this one would be too easy. Because about 3 other groupings are too easy.

Since my death seems imenent, by lynch or by mafia,

Why would the scum kill you? If you somehow wern't lynched today, they would surely keep you alive so you'd get lynched tomorrow... Unless of course you claimed Doc... That would be suicide.

Vote: Alan
For making me look bad (not implying that I'm mafia).

What kind of reason is that to vote for someone? Everyone always makes other people look bad, it is basically what accusing people does.

And again with the "(no offense, not implying that I'm mafia, etc.)" those reassuring comments are so scummy.

Would I really be that stupid?
If I was mafia I would be much more careful than that.

WIFOM. Also, if you are a townie and realize you are being scummy then you arn't helping either.

The "if I were scum" lines are all WIFOM and thus cannot be used as the core of a defence.

Why? I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but what will we gain from it?

If he claims Doc then it gives everyone an interesting choice. Scum would NK him or NK someone else to make it look like he is scum. Or he is scum claiming doc and makes it through to tomorrow using that arguement.

However, lynching a claimed doc is giving us no chance of Cop comes out, doc protects cop, etc. When the Mafia roleblocker is killed. IMO I still think claiming doc shouldn't save him. With only 1 mislynch allowed it would be a risky thing to not lynch someone because of, purely because there is no margain for WIFOM tomorrow.

If he claims Cop: I'll be inclined to disbelieve him. But we could leave him alive for one night, doc might be able to save someone (wouldn't have to neccesarily protect him) and we could get an investigation result from him and after lynching him (if we are not at lynch or lose due to a good day 1 or day 2 lynch or a super doc or something) then we have an investigation result to look at, as well as the cop's alignment.


If he claims townie, he dies. If he's honest or not it's WIFOM and we don't lose anything important if he is town.


For what it's worth, claiming is usually a good idea. But he is so suspicious and we have so little room for error that I'm not sure how much it would help.

[Nemesis]

Note also that the 2nd least amount of scumhunting isn't admirable either. Just because you've done more than Xpom (who has done very little) doesn't mean anything to me.

I don't know... I think I've done more than you maybe. I guess the problem would be the definition of scumhunting... When I think I'm questioning people and trying to sort good logic from bad obviously everyone else thinks a vote with fairly bad reasoning is good scumhunting. To be honest I'd prefer not to try and force it. Look at what happened when Alan tried to force it... He did a U-turn in the same post.

If something looks obviously suspicious to me then I'll point it out.

Basically by messing up and saying mafia couldn't communicate I pretty much confirmed myself town if you belive it was sincere.

Shame scum are never sincere.

I go the other way and step in and actually try to shape your decisions in the correct direction

The problem with that is eventually someone is going to call you on 'guiding the town'. The constantly explaining scum could do stuff you are doing and why also looks a little strange, although as you say it may just be how you play as IC.

I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone

as scumhunting

then I guess I have lacked mindless agresssive voting with crap for reasoning. But I don't count that as scumhunting.

Fixed, sorry for any confusion. The "as scumhunting" was somehow left out of the original post which probably caused the confusion.

Here's why it doesn't make sense. If we read it like that, Nemesis has said:
1. I haven't done less scumhunting than everyone else.
2. But if you count two things I've done as scumhunting, then I have done less scumhunting than everyone else.

I havn't done less scumhunting than everyone else.
If you don't count most of the stuff I do and only count posts with Votes in them then I have, but I don't agree with your definition of scumhunting. I think it's possible to scumhunt without making a single vote.

See, what would be nice is that if I do get lynched than people would not blame me if I was a townie. Seems like that going to happen.

If you are really a townie then start defending yourself. Don't let yourself be lynched without saying a word. Try and make arguements that make all the reasons for voting for you wrong. Do something...

At the moment you are the highest person on almost everyone's scumlist. No one gets a unanimous lynch without it being mostly their fault. If you are scum you've let your scumbuddy down, if you are town then you've let everyone but the two scum down. You are currently letting people down no matter which side you're on, so make an effort, for their sake.

If you play like this in every single game you play, you will get lynched a lot of times. I urge you to try and do something about it, you don't want to be a liability.

I did get some of my ideas from Alan, and I did sort of write them in a post and I did sort of post them. That doesn't really mean i'm scum. It means I got some of my ideas from Alan, and sort of wrote them in a post and sort of posted them. That's called either copying for people who attack me, or inspiration for people who are not so attacking me. Getting ideas is not scummy.

Now if thats not enough for you then goddamn lynch me allready because this is getting really boring.

@Alan What do you want me to claim?

Then you are echoing someone. Following someone like a sheep is bad play, try not to do it. And you said the ideas wern't yours, so how were you getting them? You were just agreeing, but you didn't post "I agree" and add something new of yours, you almost copy and pasted.

He wants you to claim what role you are. Vanilla townie, cop, doc, etc. If you are town then claim whatever role you actually are, don't try and make something up to save yourself, that's the worst play you could make at this point.

Exactly. You've had more chances to participate and more posts to accumulate throughout this game; I haven't. My attack wasn't for how much scumhunting you've done, necessarily, it's how much scumhunting you've done relative to other participation that you've had in this game.

I'm sure I've said this somewhere else recently but you cannot say that someone who posts 4,000 posts in a game with 5,000 posts is scummy just because 2,000 of his posts are about the weather. The other 2,000 are good and are double the rest of the posts in the game, but his percentages might not be the best. It doesn't mean he has done less scumhunting, because he still has 2,000 good posts.

I know, I'm doing the "your logic sucks" thing again, but damn, your logic sucks. Twisting facts is something scum do, so hopefully by pointing out you're twisting things this counts as scumhunting because you look scummy and I'm telling you that I think you're looking too hard or trying to find an acceptable reason to lynch me tomorrow. You don't count this as scumhunting because I havn't voted for you.

Also, my posts earlier on might not have been relative to the game, but that was in the random voting stage and random voting isn't scumhunting, it's just randomness.

Telling people to lynch you is another appeal to emotion.

And it is damn stupid. When would a pro town person ever ask to be lynched? Never. When would scum ask to be lynched when WIFOM is going to be their only defence.

When we've said why we're holding off a lynch, you should take this opportunity to try not to be lynched.

What I said however is NOT to claim yet if you are in fact a power role

Surely the lack of claiming would pretty much say power-role which would make you a target. Although I don't think scum would NK him, it'd take a pretty crazy doc to protect him.

I'd like a defence from him if he's a vanilla townie, cop or doc. If he's scum like I think he is then I think for his sake he should try to defend himself. He can't get into a habit of not defending himself.

I think the bottom line is that Xpom and Nemesis have been almost equally unproductive.

I disagree. I think I've helped out quite a bit, if you consider the average length of one of my posts there must be a couple of good points in each one of them.

And I always defend myself against stuff said against me. Xpom has attacked someone with bad logic and then said he'll be gone for a few days.

I was saying that the "asking me to clarify my defence" was getting boring.

Because you havn't done it yet. Defend yourself successfully against every point made against you and you won't be asked to do it again.

It's page 5 now so I get to actually give opinions on people without having to use random votes to go on.


Alan Redgown - I suppose he is the most vocal, sometimes his logic isn't the best but he's been fairly sound apart from the way Lutenit has latched himself on to him. If Lutenit turns up scum then Alan is going to look very scummy because of it.

JimmyJammas - Was a little quiet at first, but the recent posts he has made I've agreed with for the most part. I can't find anything specifically scummy except the lack of posting early on.

LutenitPowwel - Where to begin? Clinging on to people, dodging questions, having almost every scumtell possible to have. If he isn't scum then I don't know who is.

Muerrto* - Some of his logic is fairly suspect, his constant "I love scum, I'm good at it, scum might do this, scum might do that" thing is a little odd. But being IC might be the reasoning for all that if he isn't scum. I'm still not sure about him, something seems definately scummy to me but most of what he does screams town.

Nemesis* - This is me...

Xpom Telo - Was a little inactive then posted a good post, later posted a bad post. His logic ranges from good to bad and I don't really have enough to go on with him.

Zyrconium - Wow. This guy is playing? I can't remember the last post of his I read. If it wasn't for the first page listing all the players I'd have forgotten he was playing. I have absolutely nothing to go on off the top of my head. Where is this guy?

[Nemesis]

I'm trying not to upset people too much so that I won't die.

Unless you are a power role then you shouldn't mind dying if you are town aligned. Of course no one wants to die, but accusing people is how this game works.

So self-preservation is important, at least to some degree.

Well, NKwise it shouldn't pray on your mind. Lynchwise - as long as you provide good reasoned arguements you shouldn't get lynched for being vocal. No one gets lynched due to every vote against them being OMGUS. If they did then they are dealing with a town that won't win a single game as a unit.

Well, If I was scum, Alan would probably not be my partner.

Horrible sentance.

First, "if I were scum" isn't a valid arguement for anything. Secondly, if you arn't scum then your sentance is useless... And you would know that you arn't scum if you are town therefore that defence isn't helping Alan.

And if you are scum, then we will not trust a word you say. (Although I doubt we will do the exact opposite of what you say.)

He asked for permission to vote for me.

And by doing so looks even more scummy. If someone seriously asks to be allowed to vote then it doesn't look good. It makes them look too cautious or like a sheep. While he was giving reasons why he wants to vote for you, he went ott on the asking thing.

Wow is this the longest post ive ever written?

Oh dear God, I hope not.

For future reference "LOL HE'S SCUM" isn't a good question... It isn't even a question. While I appreciate you are trying to post, please put a little more thought into it and stop worrying about length.

Muerrto, that was sarcasm.

But you gave reasons why you wanted to vote for him, those wern't sarcastic. I actually think you were looking for approval and when you didn't get it you just said it was a joke.

Muerrto's ability to guide the town is very worrying for me at this point in time. It's not a good idea to let someone have this much control. Even with the best of intentions... Although he could easily be scum and everyone is listening to him.

I'll try to do a quality job and, for the most part, avoid bias.

Mine had bias... You wrote mine with an "anti Nemesis view".

[Nemesis]

I hope a cop investigates me if I don't get lynched, than I hope that the cop will tell their answer, even though they'd be a huge target for a mafia.

Guiding the cop = bad.

Your entire thing sounds scummy, it is bad play.

"LOL HE'S SCUM" TYPE questions.

Yeah, you said "type" before... Out of curiousity, what is a '"LOL HE'S SCUM" type question'?

[Nemesis]

What I'm saying is that none of your posts have been "useful"

None of my posts have been remotely useful? Absolutely nothing I've posted? I suppose that's your opinion. I disagree, by following this up with a comment saying you don't know what useful means you're protecting yourself like you accuse me of doing.

It's all been critiquing other logic,

I think that's fairly useful.

There is no conviction; there is no certainty.

Yet I said "if he's not scum then I don't know who is." Seems fairly convincted, there's a little certainty there.

You could flake on any one of your "thoughts" and nobody would think twice.

Well they are observations of what people have done this far. For some points I can't really flake. If questioned on any of my observations I would probably have to back them up.

I'm curious though. Has anyone really been convicted and certain? Is there a lot of rock solid evidence I've missed?

attempt to find scum

To be honest, I'm starting to be a little concerned by this. Obviously, if I'm not throwing out accusations (and my accusations are usually not baseless and do usually have evidence), that would make me unsure. We're at page 5 on day 1, I'm not sure how sure someone can be of knowing who both scum are at this time.

If I were to accuse someone of being scum and do it with any real conviction then I'd need something to go on.

By constantly asking me to push for a lynch on someone you are asking me to pretty much guess who is scum and without believing in it myself push for a lynch. I guess I'm a little bit more careful with what I say. It looks to me like you are just defending Lutenit and attempting to cause a distraction.

It's almost confirmed that he will be our day 1 lynch. I think seeing whether or not he comes up as scum would provide plenty of information. I don't need to lead a lynch for someone that doesn't deserve it, especially as I will have much more information tomorrow should I survive the night.

I posted my opinion on people, you said that wasn't enough. I'm curious, what will be enough for you?

Do I need to vote for someone and provide evidence that they are scum to be doing something useful?

[Nemesis]

It's been 3 days since my last post. Because of Xmas everything is going slow, but I just wanted to say I'm still here.

[Nemesis]

Excellent.

I'm not sure if you've done this and I've missed it but can you please say how suspicious you are of everyone or pick out your top 3 most suspicious or something please?

[Nemesis]

Oh and Lutenit, I'm really interested;

Out of curiousity, what is a '"LOL HE'S SCUM" type question'?

You didn't answer that before, I honestly would like to know the answer.

[Nemesis]

Thanks Lutenit. That explains a lot.

If you don't mind, could you post a list of the three people you are most suspicious of?

Sleep deprived as I may be, I think it would be very useful should you die. You havn't really accused anyone (without following Alan) except Alan; for making you look bad. So I don't think this can be a bad thing.

Useful tip; when you die, we will see your alignment. Whether you are scum or town the list I'm asking you to make will be an interesting (if slightly guess-prone) thing for tomorrow's discussion.

[Nemesis]

I can't believe I forgot to do this earlier:

Lutenit's other game (still ongoing)

Lutenit's other other game (still ongoing and not that useful for observing Lutenit.)

I found the first a fairly interesting read. It almost validates the inexperience claim, although the latching on to someone is certainly different.

I am left with the striking realization that Alan escaped the putting someone at lynch -1 thing a little easily. Seeing Lutenit is very unothadox has made me think Alan is more likely to be scum than Lutenit. (Although they could be the most obvious scum pair in the multiverse.)

Vote Alan Redgown

The distraction tactics and the lynch -1 thing have really been worse than Lutenit being a sheep. Granted he has been acting scummy but that appears to be his style. (Except for the latching on, which is new). While both could be scum I'm going to vote for Alan, I'd prefer an Alan lynch to a Lutenit one at this moment in time.

I think Alan was lucky Lutenit helped take the pressure he would have got on him off (without it really being on) and Alan was pressing for the lynch a little hard. (The asking permission "sarcasm".)

His logic was very faulty early on and it hasn't improved although he hasn't posted those analysis things yet. I also am pretty surprised I complete forgot about the lynch -1 thing. That was huge yet it was brushed past very quickly. (Until I just reread some of the posts I had totally forgotten about it, it was lucky I was searching for Lutenit's defence for following Alan.)

Which reminds me, Lutenit, why did you follow Alan's actions? I can understand why you posted that you agreed with him, that isn't an uncommon thing, but I still can't understand why you FoSed and Voted like he did. (Especially the FoS, that was very weird.) I know you said "we have the same opinions" or something to that effect, you havn't added to that, have you? From my point of view "we have the same opinions" doesn't qualify as a proper answer. (It doesn't explain the actions for one thing.) If you could just elaborate a little it would be most helpful.


I wonder why this random posts of inspiration only come to me when I'm tired as hell.

[Nemesis]

Well, I think that Lieutenit has been pretty much universally agreed upon by the town as scum (I'm looking again, and I'm starting to "see the light" (or the blood) on him), but the way you talk, your convictions are always so flaky and inoffensive that I doubt that there's any honest conviction there -- it's just what a townsperson

should

say.

Ironically I'm actually starting to doubt Lutenit is scum, after seeing he acts in nearly the same way in other games. Although the clinging on to Alan thing was weird. Lutenit is still one of the scummiest people, but I'm starting to suspect Alan more.

My point is that you have spent most of your time arguing about semantics and peoples' logic that is irrelevant to what the game of mafia should be for a townsperson and that's finding scum.

But I'm not going to force it, I don't really think I should be running around like a headless chicken just because I'm "supposed" to be doing that. And I'll dispute people's logic, I find that a totally acceptable thing to do. I think it's useful, I see no reason for me to stop.

To make me stop thinking that you're scum, you should spend less time arguing semantics with people and finding scum and providing evidence. Because right now, it's just like you're beating around the bush and missing the main point.

But your main point assumed I have an excellent way of finding scum that I can rely on and I can find evidence at will... I generally don't have a super power that will allow me to do this, sorry.

Back to Lieutenit. I'm tempted to vote for him to end the day, but I know better at this point. Does everyone think that lynching Lieutenit is a useful idea? Is he even at L-1? Can we get a votecount?

So now you're done with "trying to look elsewhere" because I brought up a new point, which I was also asked to do by you. (Or so you just said.)

So not only have I yet again displeased you with my scumhunting skills, you now decide that you don't feel like doing any scumhunting and you also want to end the day with a lynch you've generally avoided. Is this because I said I'd prefer another lynch to Lutenit? Are you wondering if the scum missed their easy lynch and now one of you might get lynched instead?

FoS Xpom Telo

For a disturbing amount of hypocrisy sprinkled with a fair amount of haste.

And he should be at lynch -2 our orders were very clear on that front.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: Ok, I forgot to read the next page. I suck. I'm doing that now.

[Nemesis]

Gross, metagaming.

For the most part I'd agree. But this is a special circumstance. It wasn't the usual metagaming thing.

The inexperience part only seems to hurt his case. What lame strategy might a newbie scum try? Just choose one person, and cling to him.

We knew he was inexperienced before. I was just posting a reference to his posting style and stuff he does.

Vote: LutenitPowwel. If I die today, you should probably kill him tomorrow. I would also advise keeping an eye on both Nemesis and Xpom Telo. I really hope I find time to write my analyses, because it's possible that the outcome of the game could depend on them. But that's just my ego talking.

As soon as the tiniest pressure is applied, you decide to vote for someone to put them as lynch -1.

Then you try your bargaining again. If you truely decide you can post something that will decide the game (and you imply that it would mean the town winning) then either find time to post them or stop saying "scum kill me, I can cost you the game, kill me now."

Bargaining with the town won't work, so again, I see no reason to post about the effect you could make.

Again...

Xpom, he's at L-1 now.

If that wasn't the second most obvious set up to hammer post ever (after someone telling Fritz he could hammer and doing the same thing) then I don't know what is.

It looks like you voted Lutenit hoping Xpom would kill him for you. And you also suspect Xpom of being scum, so this is a scummy as hell post.

However, Nemesis' push to protect Lutenit AGAIN and this time by using metagaming has definitely made up my mind that he's Lutenit's partner. No townie would stick his neck out like that for someone who he has no clue whether he's town or not.

I actually do that a lot. If I think a bad lynch is going to happen at a bad time then I stop it. Especially when I think being in LyLo tomorrow would be the result.

And Lutenit appears to be fairly incapable of protecting himself, wouldn't you say?

Besides, I havn't really protected him a great deal before. And as soon as I made my last post everyone is in a hurry and acting like scum. I think it was a good decision to make. We now have a lot of that information you wanted us to try and get.

I say it's time to finish the day with Lutenit in the noose and if he turns up scum I'll be looking extremely closely at Nemesis tomorrow.

You suck. Look at what just happened... It just happened. And don't let Alan get his wish to instantly shed all pressure, even though there's hardly any on him at all. Your entire waiting for stuff to happened only just happened, let things settle before letting a lynch happen. Why the sudden rush? You've got a little bit of information on me, but you could let the other stuff work out first. Your entire thing has been "let's get a 2nd suspect", I assume you just want to cop to be able to have something to work with and maybe the doc although they generally just protect an IC and hope for the best. So now when we have a chance to get information you stop your holding out, which was a good idea such a short time ago. There was no discussion, you have yet again effectively commanded something, and because everyone is holding you in such high regard I expect there will be a stupid lynch now. Just when I don't want one.


Also, if he believes his write ups could help, Alan should post them before we go to night.

[Nemesis]

He's my second choice at this point, I still think Alan would be a better lynch or at least is looked at a little bit. As soon as someone said they were feeling like lynching someone he reacted in the scummiest manner imaginable. That's got to count for something.

[Nemesis]

Actually, I was just answering Xpom's question from post 149:

Yes but when combined with the fact you waited to vote for Lutenit and then voted for him as soon as someone talked about maybe voting for him, it does look a little scummy.

Nemesis, you do realize that Muerrto isn't really our commander?

As I said, I missed the last page. Lutenit was at lynch-2 at the bottom of the last page. So I posted what I thought Lutenit was at.

The comment regarding Muerrto telling us to leave him at lynch -2 was just a comment I made in passing to express my worry about the town letting itself be led by him. (I've been making these comments for a while more directly.)

Is that a warning or a threat?

Despite the fact that I told you it's generally a bad idea to attempt to bargain with the town about gamebreaking posts you say you can write, you did it again. My comment was just trying to say "if you believe they are that useful, post them". And "if you can't be bothered to post them, then stop mentioning how good they are".

[Nemesis]

LOL. Ok, so Xpom and JJ are the only ones you don't think are scum.

Well assuming you are town, at least you have a fair chance of being right about one person.

[Nemesis]

No one reacted to my post 137 that laid the cases for Lutenit's possible partners-in-crime.

Well, you gave the reasons that Alan didn't believe even though he wrote them as a reson to suspect me. I'd gone over them once and as even the person who's idea they were gave up on them, I thought it'd be a little pointless replying to them again.

But then again, Lutenit said he and Alan "have the same opinions", which, if Lutenit is town, points to Alan being town.

No, it doesn't. Lutenit is misguided at best. I very much doubt Lutenit decided to FoS the same person as Alan for the same reason before he saw Alan's post.

Lutenit's first action independant of Alan was to vote for Alan. (Granted the reasoning was awful, but that's not the point.)

If we're "wrong" about Alan, we're still kind of half "right",

No we arn't. We're still 100% wrong. I know the point you make is partially valid but in LyLo we'd need everything we could get. If we end up in LyLo with Alan (easily swayed) or Lutenit (will follow people around) we're screwed either way, unless they show self control.

If everyone agrees on something, it probably means we're wrong. Think about it: if Lutenit is scum, why would his partner agree with us?

Lutenit doesn't agree.

And because scum always sell their partners down the river.

but I won't add this as incriminating evidence against Alan. Seemed like he was just answering Xpom when I read it.

Did you combine it with the post above it? Do that and come back saying it doesn't look scummy?

"hey can we lynch X now?"

"Vote X. Yes we can, screw waiting and in 30 seconds I've made the decision to let you lynch him too. Gogo"

I may have paraphrased a little of that, but it seemed to me to be what Alan did.

Well, if you cited my points, then I've probably already made my suspicion of Nemesis clear enough.

I love that quote. It at least proves your memory isn't the greatest. (Hey, mine isn't either. So don't take that the wrong way. Even if you did

write the post in question.

)

It was the one you tried to be biased against me and end up saying I'm actually not scum and your own post made you realize that. So yeah, your suspicion of me was made clear enough, for about 25 seconds.

Still, it is apparent that my opinions don't waver as much I've previously suggested they do.

I don't know. Generally I wasn't called scum before at all and now I'm beginning to be and suddenly I'm high on your list.

5. Muerrto
6. JimmyJammas

Muerrto had the weakest arguement against him and JJ hasn't really been disagreed with all game, let alone voted.

So, I don't think you have proven that you arn't easily swayed with this.

[Nemesis]

LOL. That was a

defence

of Alan? I took it to be more of anti Alan set of posts than anything else.

Especially in light of the fact that I feel you've claimed vanilla townie without really meaning to.

Well after saying he may as well die as he won't be much use, it would look a like scummy if he claimed cop. He'd get a ton of FoSes for that. Although there would be the obvious "but I was just saying that so scum wouldn't kill me, I knew I wouldn't be lynched really" arguement. But meh. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, which shouldn't really be ever.

He'll deserve a /slap if he doesn't claim vanilla. But you deserve a /slap for pointing out that he's pretty much claimed vanilla to the scum. (If he survives this day.)

Ok, I detest this line more than anything. I'd like a reeeeally good explanation as to how Lutenit being town and agreeing with Alan points to Alan being town. Since if they're both town then they both have no clue the other is town...

I agree, although "Alan has pro-town opinions" would sort of make more sense, if still being mostly wrong.

The problem with this is Lutenit's answer "we both have the same opinions" is a crazy answer and cannot be true.

So even if Lutenit comes up town, we can't say people who behave like he does are actually townies. And I can't really think of much Lutenit has done that's helped the town.

I'm not sure why having someone agree with you would point to you being town, even if they did come up town. I'm sure scum start bandwagons sometimes and even if all the townies joined it, it doesn't make the scum seem anymore protown when they end up being wrong.

Lutenit, what are your current thoughts?

Muerrto, why the unvote?

[Nemesis]

Ok, so Lutenit, now a confirmed townie, stated that he agreed with Alan on most things. You can't see how that points to Alan being town? It has nothing to do with the fact that they have no clue the other is town. We have a confirmed townie saying he agreed with a lot of what an unknown was saying. It's not proof in the pudding by any means, and my intention was not to defend Alan at all, but surely you can see the connection.

[If Lutenit is town:]

No offense Lutenit, but my response to this has to be "but it's Lutenit."

The fact that Lutenit is entered into this makes a lot of that questionable. This is partly because Lutenit has been questionable.

But the important thing you seem to be missing is: a townie can be taken in be false logic.

There are only 2 major occurances of the "agreement of opinions" or whatever you want to label it. Lutenit's logic might not be as rock solid as it could be.

(It is very difficult to tell because the only thing he has done independantly is vote Alan for making him (Lutenit) look bad. Take a look at his example accusing question if you need further proof.)

Relying on Lutenit's logic, just because he's town, doesn't make it right.

[If Lutenit is scum]

If we dismiss the possible plays Lutenit could have made about clinging on to a random townie to drag him down with him. Ignoring any possibilities of anything like that. If Lutenit was actually posted false logic. Would that make Alan scum just because Lutenit agreed with him.

And what about the other way around? If Lutenit had posted something and Alan had agreed with that, would that make Alan scum?

---------------------------

Muerrto, there was a lot of anti Alan stuff in the pair of posts I was talking about. Let me find some of what I consider to be anti Alan stuff:

[ 164 ]

Now, look at the lynch Alan possibility. "If scum can easily sway my vote, then I'm in big trouble". If scum can easily sway a townie's vote, then the whole town is in big trouble. A townie that can be easily swayed by scum is no better than scum, really. If we're "wrong" about Alan, we're still kind of half "right", because he's as much a liability to the town as a scum is. Alan's "if I'm wrong" scenario is much better than Lutenit's.

He throws the idea of lynching Alan out there. (It's not a new idea. But he still says it wouldn't be a bad lynch.)

Two votes on, and Alan panicked. At least that's the way his post 150 read to me, where he put Lutenit back at L-1.

That's anti Alan, if not actually accusing.

The Alan / Muerrto scumpair is definitely an interesting one. When you look at both times Alan has made a list of suspects (posts 60 and 163), Muerrto has been at the bottom (but not very bottom) both times.

Talks about Alan and you as a scumpair. Again anti-Alan.

[ 173 ]

All I was saying was that if we mis-lynch you, I think we'd be in better shape than if we mis-lynch Lutenit. Obviously, I'd like to not mis-lynch at all. I was going for the lesser-of-two-evils angle.

Again, anti-Alan.

You've pretty much just claimed vanilla townie. If we do mis-lynch, I'd rather lose a vanilla townie than a (possible) power role.

To reiterate, I think Lutenit is much scummier than you are. I think you're the better mis-lynch.

More pro lynching Alan than anything else.

----------

So for all those reasons I didn't consider it a defence, as such. There seem to be a couple of things saying he'd rather lynch Alan. Although JJ might be protecting himself if he's scum, by leaving a "well I didn't think he was scummiest, but at least we've got information" or something.

He'd be a confirmed townie, we'd have to trust him.

I'd be tempted not to blindly trust people, regardless of their confirmed alignment. People make mistakes, inexperienced people make even more mistakes. People who are trying to learn the basics of a game but have been given a baptism of fire arn't to be expected to do everything "properly". If Lutenit is town but realizes he made a mistake and doesn't want to own up to it in order to protect himself, I'll expect it.

My question then is, how do we use anything the confirmed townie said or did?

With caution. You can trust that they believed what they said they belived, but their judgement was never perfect. Just like currently you cannot be sure who is 100% scum and who isn't. (Assuming you're town.) We would be able to trust you believed what you were saying, but if you don't know if you are right now, then we can't know you're right by reading what you wrote. (If that makes sense.)

Generally, clues can be looked for in later days with doc actions, cop actions and in different games there are a bunch of other roles which make this tactic much more useful.

Although if Muerrto firmly believes someone is town and dies we can take that belief as a positive, should we bandwagon the individual in question. But there's no way to know how sure a townie was unless they were screaming their lungs out all through the day, or something.

The actual information that is more valuable is the interactions with other currently living players. If I constantly pestered people with craplogic in order to try and get you lynched and you were lynched. The bandwagon would be very interesting indeed, the debates and arguements, etc.

The flip side is if Alan is scum. That's when you get tons of information. You can reread and get all kinds of things. Agreements, disagreements, possible distancing, odd agreements, avoidance, bandwagons started, attempted attacks, attacks, defences, etc.

There's a load of stuff to be gained from lynching scum even if you don't count the fact that you have lynched scum.

Any reason why we haven't heard from our prime suspect since sunday?

That reminds me. I'm not 100% sure who our prime suspect is, and by how much.

Actually, nevermind that. I found a vote count:

LutenitPowwel - 1 (Alan Redgown)
Nemesis - 1 (Xpom Telo)
Alan Redgown - 2 (LutenitPowwel, Nemesis)

Not Voting - 3 (JimmyJammas, Muerrto, Zyrconium)


4 to Lynch

Lutenit's vote is still on Alan for making him look bad.

Lutenit - are you still happy with your vote on Alan for that reason?

Xpom is still voting for me, he's been very quiet since asking about Lutenit's lynch.

[Nemesis]

Imagine a witch trial, if you will; while everyone else in the town is focused on finding a witch and burning her, you're standing on a soap box and trying to exasperate what exactly is wrong with everyone. We'd get more witches if you spent more time looking for them instead of consistently playing the devil's advocate.

But I'd save a ton of people if I could just explain that witches don't exist.

But fine, say witches did exist and I'm just saying what people are doing wrong...

Stuff like "witches only come out at night" should be corrected. It helps the search, even if I'm not doing any searching. (Which I still think is harsh.)

I feel that you're doing that deliberately in order to avoid a conviction towards someone that may end up haunting you in future days.

ROFL. That's why this is bugging you? Oh man. You honestly think I want to be liked, or at least, not be disliked? I'll make enemies out of anyone, if they deserve it. I don't fear getting lynched because of OMGUS and I certainly don't mind being NKed because of it.

Hell, this is my first game, and you're probably a town power role and I'm totally wrong about everything I've said. But at least I'm trying.

Well if I am the cop or the doc, if you had enough people you could make me claim, which would be bad. So it would hurt to try in that instance.

But the game is pretty much this kind of thing, so trying is generally good. The problem is, you at least have some sort of reasoning that while I can't agree with, isn't exactly random.

If I'd have been accusing people when you started this then I'd have no reasons and would just try to find things that wern't there. My target would be random and my reasons would be exaggerated or even fabricated. So it wouldn't have been much help. Also, I like to think there is some kind of weight when I do begin to question people. I don't just jump from person to person until I've gone around every player twice, my votes generally mean something, etc.

I'm not saying I'm playing particularly well, but this was my first game in 6 months or so, I was rusty. My scumdar was off and before I learned I was IC, I had actually tried to be in this game as newbie. So earlier I wasn't that great for finding scum. I do still think I was a little useful though. Sorting good logic from bad ultimately helps us find scum.

I hope I am being a little more useful now, with a vote on someone and some reasoning behind it. Plus the posts I'm making now are generally more accusatory than before. (But as I say, first game in 6 months or so. I'm not totally back into the swing of things yet.)

I'm still doing scumhunting.

Yet you are prepared to hammer someone? Clinging to old points without adding new ones is no longer scumhunting really, when you consider all you are doing is pushing something that isn't moving nor shows any signs of moving.

But, I mean...you might be right. And you might be wrong.

Ah, that's the convinction you were asking me for. And the making enemies you said I wasn't making. I see it now.

Imagine a witch trial, if you will; while everyone else in the town is focused on finding a witch and burning her, you're standing on a soap box and trying to exasperate what exactly is wrong with everyone. We'd get more witches if you spent more time looking for them instead of consistently playing the devil's advocate.

My turn:

Imagine the Berlin wall needs to be knocked down. You are trying to knock down the wall into someone's house... And you're using a sledgehammer made of marshmellows.

[Nemesis]

Congratulations on the best post you've made all game.

Although you havn't answered the question I bolded for you in one of my earlier posts. Are you still happy with your vote on Alan? Oh and don't worry about the (not accusing) thing on all of your posts. It discredits them somewhat.

but he hasn't really considered the possibility that I'm a townie. Well, maybe a few times

The above pretty much applies to everyone. Except the few times, I can't think of many people who have thought about any kind of a reason for you posting what you've been posting. When everyone almost lynched you earlier, I was one of the people who said I'd prefer you not to be lynched yet... These are pretty helpful things apparently. At least they're enough for me to be labeled scummy for defending you. (Weird, how I'm being called scummy for doing something too much and too little at the same time.)

[Nemesis]

Well, JJ has gone from near bottom on most people's list of possible scum to the middle or higher, and I see why, but I'm not that sure he's scum. In retrospect he is trying to argue for both sides a little, but that isn't enough for me to be anywhere near sure.

If I had to say who I thought Alan's partner was right now I'd have to have a think about it. Some people have stayed quite a bit away from the Alan thing, so it's hard to gauge those people right now.

JJ didn't defend Alan as much as first thought though. Did Alan actually answer JJ's question about why he changed his mind about Lutenit? (The question that caused some of the JJ is scum opinions.)

[Nemesis]

What would be ideal is to be investigated tonight and possibly also scumkilled. If I was scumkilled, the investigation would be a waste, but at least I'd be dead. There are worse things than a wasted investigation.

The wording of this is so very very strange. I don't like this at all. There is so much wrong with it, I don't know where to start.

Are you saying that my post was correct? Please explain.

No, but it was decently structured, reasonably well worded, wasn't virtually copy and pasted and was generally an encouraging sight. What you were saying wasn't right, but you can have everything.

[Nemesis]

Well, firstly "or" should have been used instead of "and" when talking about being investigated and NKed.

If you are a vanilla townie then I guess the scumkilled comment isn't too bad. But the investigated and killed in the same night is a stupid thing to ask for. Guiding the cop is also not a great thing to do. "But at least I'd be dead." What is that supposed to mean? I could take it as "at least the scum won't kill a power-role", but the way it is worded makes it sound so very scummy to me.

There's a lot wrong with it, and considering it is two lines, it screams scum to me.

[Nemesis]

But then I made the vanilla townie realization. If Alan had come out and claimed vanilla townie, I don't know that I would trust it. But I think I found his role by reading into what he said. Unless he planted all of that (kudos if you did), then I'm tempted to believe that he's vanilla town.

So if I "accidentally" post something along the lines of "I guess I won't be much help to the town" that would make me 99% town in your eyes?

I don't take "accidental" things as truths. See Muerrto in post 85 for a simular thing.

Using your logic they are both town purely based on that?
(Here is Muerrto's post.)

Muerrto, I am not understanding what you meant by

Unless you believe I just actually meant that.

and

Then again, I am quite crafty(to play devil's advocate so I don't confirm myself) and have yet to be caught as scum so *shrug*

...Can you clarify those two things for me?

Easily. Basically by messing up and saying mafia couldn't communicate I pretty much confirmed myself town if you belive it was sincere.

Since that screws up the game massively the second sentence is to remind that I may not be sincere because I have actually yet to be caught ever as scum. I greatly enjoy being scum.

The point is I'm an IC. My job here is to teach. So while my screw up about mafia communication is a pretty town confirming event I don't want people to read that and take it a face value because it could always be a clever ploy. It's also my attempt to save me from messing up the game.

Although Muerrto's mistake was a bit more obvious than Alan's "I'm useless", it wasn't that much more obvious. You didn't respond to Muerrto's clarification of what he meant when he gave the explaination for why he isn't confirmed townie. So I have to assume you had no problem with it.

You havn't applied it to Alan so I'm going to

FoS JJ

, for that reason. You have pretty much contradicted yourself and as you obviously don't see Muerrto as a townie you have no reason to think Alan is one.

And now, to Xpom: I just FoSed someone based on their logic which shows when you said "examining people's logic isn't scumhunting", you were wrong. If you would kindly fix your reason for voting for me, that would be nice. (Obviously unvoting me with an apology and mentally adding "examining people's logic is a form of scumhunting" to your brain's definition of scumhunting would be ideal. But I can't have everything.)

[Nemesis]

I still feel like you're doing this because I brought this out into the open. For example, I bring up this case against you, and you decide to change your playstyle in order to counter the case I had against you. That's why I found this:

I'd usually decide against doing something I've been voted for not doing. That carrys over to the rest of my life where applicable too. The problem in this situation is I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.

I cannot accuse someone without looking scummy based on what you have said.

Yet I cannot avoid accusing people just because you said I wasn't. This would be unhelpful to the town if I refrained from posting what I think are valid accusations.

The only things I can think of to try and prove I'm not just accusing people because you say I should be are:

1: I didn't imediately reread and find 4 people scummy enough for me to FoS/Vote them all. (Granted, doing this would have been very scummy and probably stupid.)

2: It has been a while since your original accusation. I couldn't have no suspicions all game, could I?

3: You originally accused me very early on when there was little suspicious activity. I had nothing to be suspicious of.

4: Check my logic, it works out.

kind of suspicious.

That's a different point. My point to you just then was to say that your original logic was wrong. That finding people's logic wrong could be considered scumhunting and that it was useful.

and I don't find good enough reasons to implicate anyone else (other than Lieutenit), then why should I change?

Meh, you don't really have to change. Just be aware that if you stop throwing new reasons in, my case will go nowhere and it will just get old. In your post you have given new reasons, so at least you don't consider your scumhunting done.

A constant vote X for a page 1 reason with nothing new added to it would be fairly useless, so I'm glad you are not doing that at least.

As for the example with Muerrto, it was a simple clarification question and response, I had no reason to further respond. His post basically said "If I'm scum, I might lie to you." Which is pretty obvious, and I felt no need to comment on it.

Which is fine. The only thing I was trying to point out is: You didn't disagree with the possibility of Muerrto "accidentally" not realizing scum could talk pre-game not actually being an accident. So you shouldn't have a problem with Alan "accidentally" giving everyone clues that he is a vanilla townie not actually being an accident.

If he's a power role

Then he's scum pretending to be a power-role. There's no way he can claim to be a power role now.

[Nemesis]

If you don't agree with Vanilla Alan, you would still be open to him claiming a power role.

If someone says "if the cop does X" and acts like they arn't the cop while actually being the cop, fine.

If someone says "I'm not the cop" then in LyLo says "I am the cop" then I'm not going to believe them. He'd be much more likely to be scum.

I think this is great discussion, and I'd love to hear everyone's opinions on it. What do you think of Vanilla Alan? Do you think he planted it?

It's impossible to tell.

He could have faked it, it could have slipped out. I'm not sure one way or the other and I tend to avoid those types of thinks when deciding if someone is scum or not.

[Nemesis]

Every post you make brings me closer to voting one of you and since Nemesis isn't convinced you're defnding Alan I spose it will be him.

I realize JJ is defending Alan now. The thing that confused me was the time when JJ says he wasn't sure. His last post is totally pro Alan. Post "the Vanilla realization" JJ has been defending Alan. I originally thought he was just weighing both sides of the arguement. But I'm fairly convinced JJ is scum now.

The vanilla realization, Vanilla Alan... What is all that about? Constantly making labels for Alan so it drums "Alan = Vanilla townie" into our heads?

I'd still prefer an Alan lynch, because he's either scum with JJ or scum with Lutenit.

but he seems less to be defending Alan and more to be role fishing to me.

I think it has gone past fishing. Now JJ is proclaiming Alan is a vanilla townie to anyone who will listen.

Also I still think Lutennit needs to do some explaining, just because he does some of the scummy behaviour in a different game does not clear him of everything.

That's true and he has brought new scummy traits into this one. I was just trying to say Lutenit's playstyle in this game isn't totally different from his other ones and a lynch at that time wouldn't have been the best play.

Nope. I'm not defending him again

Then why the excessive nicknaming, constantly refering to Alan as "Vanilla Alan", etc?

This is your entire case against me, and it's simply not true.

What about your more recent things?

Saying you decided Alan was a townie can be taken as a defence of Alan.
Constantly throwing vanilla in with Alan's name can be taken as a defence of Alan.


The finding and posting of Alan's "mistake" was a pro-Alan thing to do, although it is possible you didn't intend for it to be that way. Although I still think it wasn't a pro-town thing to do.

You also seemed to completely skip over post #213, in which I agree with Nemesis's criticism of Vanilla Alan

Good. So your current stance on "Vanilla Alan" is?

-----------------

Lutenit: You do realize that you have constantly ignored my question:

Lutenit: Are you still happy with your vote on Alan and your reasoning for it? Alan is at lynch -2, I think. Which means that in one more vote Alan should claim. Therefore if you are not happy with your vote, say so, or if you are happy with your vote, confirm that.

Your vote may matter, so post something about how happy you are with it, please.

[Nemesis]

Alan made his post while I was writing mine.

Also, for the most part, Muerrto has seemed town to me. I can't exactly tell, but if he is the one who turned the vote in my direction, I suppose there is a fair chance he's scum (if I die today or tonight, please consider this possibility). Still, as scum, would he say he's almost 100% sure anyone is scum? I'm not so sure.

I believe the credit for taking some of the heat off of Lutenit and putting it on you is mostly my doing. Although JJ seems willing to take most of the heat for you.

And I don't think it was particularly scummy. Lutenit doesn't seem as lynchworthy now as he did then. So I think it was for the best.

Why wouldn't he say he's almost 100% sure anyone is scum?

[Nemesis]

He clarified that in the last line of one of his posts. He had posted it plenty before then.

But even so, it still puts your name with vanilla.

And there's also stuff like "the vanilla realization"... That suggests he's made up his mind.

Nicknaming was the wrong word to use... More like word association, or name association or something.

[Nemesis]

Option #4. See the pattern, not know what to believe but take it as Alan saying he isn't a power-role. He could be a vanilla townie or scum in my eyes.

And for 3b, it should be "the same as him coming out and saying "I'm a vanilla townie".

[Nemesis]

I'm certainly not trying to clear him.

Well you seem to be his biggest supporter. Recently your posts have been all about your theory that Alan is a vanilla townie. Constantly pushing that point can be interpreted as trying to clear him.

[Nemesis]

* Lutenit was at L-1 and has since disappeared.

* I'm still here, defending myself at every turn.

I know, and whenever I try and get Lutenit's attention he doesn't respond. So I pretty much gave up and figured he'd appear when he appears and I hope he says something worthwhile when he does appear.

Yes, and while I appreciate that... It doesn't really make you seem more or less scummy to me.

Unfortunately you're getting overly defensive

I don't really think he is. He's defending each point made against him, I prefer defending everything to what Lutenit did earlier. (Waiting pages to defend himself slightly.)

I don't use defensiveness to gauge scummyness though.

and I'd consider JJ's analysis of Alan to be spot-on and townieish.

Despite the fact he told the scum Alan's role (if Alan isn't scum)? I don't really think you can call that 'townieish'.

[Nemesis]

Thanks for answering my question.

I hope

you

all do good in scum-hunting.

(Emphasis mine.)

Freudian slip or declaration that you won't be doing any scum-hunting?

[Nemesis]

* Metagaming. He looked into Lutenit's other games and made judgments based on Lutenit's play in those games. That's usually not a good tactic to employ.
* He completely misinterpreted my informing Xpom of the current status of Lutenit's bandwagon. He wasn't the only one to misinterpret this, but it seems like he tried to use it against me.
[TIME LAPSE OF MANY HOURS]

As you point out, you used metagaming too. While that doesn't alter whether it is a good tactic to employ it shows that it can't be that bad if you do it yourself and think nothing of it.

I did not make a complete judgement, I was trying to prove that this game isn't the only one he has acted scummy in. I tried to show that he is consistantly scummy, so no one should make rash decisions. I did not say he was cleared or given an excuse for his previous play.

Metagaming isn't always bad and I wasn't using metagaming to have an absolute opinion of someone.

------

Well if you do something I consider scummy then I'm going to mention it. While in retrospect I may have been a bit unfair to assume that your 7 lines would definately have given you time to see the post, and make a new one... There is a 13 minute gap between posts. And 13 minutes is counting from the moment Xpom's post was made... So that is assuming that you were unlucky and missed his post by a second or so... If you missed it by say 7 minutes, you would have had 20 minutes to write the post. So it is not unthinkable that you saw it.

If you didn't see it then it is a spectacular co-incidence... One person thinks about ignoring Muerrto's request to leave Lutenit at lynch -2 and another person votes for him.

There is something very fishy there. As you say, you both did this fairly quickly. Why did you pick that moment to vote for Lutenit?

Thanks for writing something though. We now at least have some ideas we can put to your alignment should you die.

If you are town, we have some trustable opinions. (Although trustable isn't the same as correct.)

If you are scum we have a fun game of guess if the scum confirmed real innocents, and I've always quite liked that game.

[Nemesis]

but I wouldn't have made a second post if I had seen Xpom's post before finishing mine. (I would have edited my post.)

Unless you were scum planning on using this arguement if you got called on it.

1. LutenitPowwel
2. Nemesis
3. Muerrto
4. Zyrconium

How did this happen? Muerrto was "pro-town" and Zyrc was "dunno" a second ago...

I know you explain this at the end of your post and notice your inconsistancy... But how did this happen?

Is Zyrc now "pro-town" although with no apparent reason for the change or is Muerrto now "dunno" with no reason for the change?

I can see you tried to explain it, but either I'm tired and can't understand or I just don't see what changed.

[Nemesis]

Pretending I'm a different player, of course he's scum. He seems way too convinced Alan is a vanilla townie.

If the above is true...

Sorry Muerrto, but I still believe JJ's pro-town.

How can that be?

I think it's safe to say there's some degree of OMGUS between us,

The above is taken from your analysis of me. While I don't hold grudges and therefore never go for OMGUS, you apparently do. If we can look at your list again:

1. LutenitPowwel
2. Nemesis
3. Muerrto
4. Zyrconium
5. Xpom Telo
6. JimmyJammas

Do you see the common denominator?

1: Lutenit - Actually acted fairly scummy... But made you look a bit scummy and also is voting for you and has been for a long time. (This player is not helping you and is accusing you.)

2: Nemesis - Thinks you are suspicious, hasn't helped you and is accusing you. And is currently voting for you.

3: Muerrto - Not accusing you as much as the top 2, but still accusing you quite a bit, doesn't agree with your feelings towards JJ and thinks you are scum.

4: Zyrconium - Disagreed with your views towards JJ, thinks you are fairly scummy.

5: Xpom - Thinks Lutenit and Nemesis are scummy. Doesn't really think you are scummy enough to be lynched.

6: JJ - Has been arguing you are town and found the "proof" to back up his claims. He is your #1 fan.


What do you notice? Is it possible that your feelings towards players is affecting your judgement a little?

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: You also say that you never go for OMGUS. Of course you don't consciously, but I feel that subconsciously, OMGUS affects everyone to a certain extent. It definitely affects some people more than others.

I'm usually too careful with OMGUS and therefore need a fairly good reason to suspect someone just because if someone says "that's OMGUS" I can say "No it's not here's why [insert reasoning here]"... OMGUS affects me in the opposite way, I get more suspicious of people being nice to me than throwing accusations around. But that's strictly not OMGUS.

As for the deathwish... I'm willing to grant it at this stage. No townie should ask to die 3 or 4 times via lynch in one game... It's either bad play or WIFOM...

[Nemesis]

Well if you'd stop saying "kill me" and start trying to convince us to lynch Lutenit instead of you, then you might survive the day. (Although I doubt it now you're at lynch -1, but you would have had a chance before.)

[Nemesis]

I think it would help if we found out everyone's opinion of who to lynch out of Alan and Luttennit. Personally I'd prefer a Luttenit lynch today (in the hope of not needing to see LYLO instead of being in a good position when it happens.)

Sorry, I didn't see this before.

I'd prefer an Alan lynch because I think he's more likely to be scum than Lutenit. Although they are both probably scum... (But that would be too easy.)

We'll get more information from Alan's lynch and if Lutenit is scum, it'll be interesting to see what his scum buddy tells him to do tomorrow.

[Nemesis]

Ok, we're in Lylo. I'm sure everyone knows this already... But don't throw around votes or do anything rashly. Use FoSes/HoSes only please. (Hand of Suspicion is rarely used, but it serves a good purpose now.)

Zyrconium,

Cop

, Killed Night 1

Well that was unfortunate. [/understatement]

So mass claiming is even out... (Although I'm not sure that would have happened anyway with this setup. But the option was nice to have...)


Here's my quick evaluation of everyone from memory. Note: The reasons you are still alive thing is actually reasons you are still alive if town, obviously, but that just gets repetative.

JimmyJammas - You were very sure of Alan, it turns out you were right... I'm fairly sure why you are alive, the only things I can think of is at the end of the day you were being fairly vocal and thus wern't doing the stereotypical power-role thing. You also had a hell of a lot of suspicion for being Alan's scum buddy, although "protecting your scum buddy" is out now. You might be scum or just believed Alan wasn't letting information slip on purpose. You are probably town, given the only scummy thing you've actually done is "pick up on something". To a certain extent you were always going to be screwed by the faith you showed in Alan, if he came up scum you'd probably have died today, as he came up town and you were right, I'm not sure how much of it I can hold against you after rereading. Muerrto does have a point about being overly sure sometimes being inside knowledge.

LutenitPowwel - You were random for the most part and was on Alan's bandwagon. (Technically started it, although I think I get the credit (for lack of a better word) for it.) You claimed vanilla townie and are unpredictable. You acted very scummy early, then dropped off in participation level. I know why you're alive. I'm a little confident you are scum, but it's hard to tell because of your random style.

Muerrto* - Possibly because you are IC, you lead the town for a while and said some weird things: "I'm good when I'm scum, so don't think I'm town just because I did X", for example. You were on Alan's bandwagon and spent quite a bit of the day trying to figure out if Alan and Lutenit or Alan and JJ were scum pairs. You are probably alive because: #1 You are IC and ICs usually get the benefit of a doc protect, or at least the high chance of one, so that puts off scum sometimes. #2 You were wrong about Alan. Given all those factors, I'm not that sure about you. You could be scum because some of the stuff you did would make sense, but everyone seems to be getting a pro-town vibe from you, so maybe it's just me... Although as you yourself said, you are good as scum.

Nemesis* - Me, so I'm not going to put that many opinions here. Actually gave the Alan bandwagon some reasons and started it moving. IC like Muerrto and wrong about Alan obviously.

Xpom Telo - You kept your head down for most of the day and then started attacking me for something you yourself were doing. You showed willingness to lynch both Lutenit and Alan when a lynch looked likely. You were on the Alan bandwagon. Reasons you might be alive: #1 You were a little bloodthirsty. #2 You kept your head down... Although sometimes that's a power-role tell so I'm not sure if lurking would count for you rather than against you.

#3 You spent the entire day accusing me, and thus spent the day barking up the wrong tree.

, [While that last one is only true from my point of view, it's the only reason I can think of why you are still alive apart from being bloodthirsty.]

----

Zyrconium, Cop, Killed Night 1 - killed because he kept his head down and wasn't that prolific? He prefered a Lutenit lynch to an Alan lynch, so he was right about Alan to some extent.

Here are Zyrc's posts.

His suspicions go Lutenit early on, Muerrto mid game, at the end it rests on Lutenit and Alan favouring Lutenit. (There's a one time mention of Alan and Muerrto or Lutenit and myself as scum pairs, and there's agreement JJ was acting suspiciously once.) But for the most part he suspected Lutenit and Muerrto.


From his posts, it seems the only thing that made him really suspect Alan was JJ's "vanilla Alan" idea, which still makes me wince each time I write it. It's oddly catchy.

So apparently JJ was right, it was an attack... Using reverse psychology.

I can't hold Xpom hammering Alan against him on its own, I can't blame anyone for lynching someone who gave up... Especially when it was a wagon of my design.

So, what's everyone's feelings on the situation?

[Nemesis]

However, he seems to have fallen off the face of the earth lately so did he go from posting a bunch and making mistakes to lurking and still popped in for the night choice?

Well, he does have a partner to help with kill choices, and he claimed vanilla so he's not a power-role if he's town.

Plus he might be lurking as in reading just not posting... If he had a night choice, I doubt he'd just not do anything... He'd be replaced if he refused to play, so he can't be that bad. Although as I say, his buddy can do the kill for him. (Although if he's the mafia blocker his partner probably wouldn't be able to do anything about that.)

I don't see how you can rule him out based on there being a kill. Maybe I'm missing something...

[Nemesis]

Lutenit's last post in this thread was 11.01.08... That's his latest post on this site. He was replaced in one of his other games and had been lynched in another. His posts in this thread so far (He was so active at the start, now he appears to have fallen off of the map.)

I suppose he has only been MIA for 9 days, so I don't know if that's worth a prod or not. The rules seem to indicate it is.

Mod, can you prod Lutenit please if he's been away long enough to deserve one?

Prods being issued. Happy Birthday, BTW

[Nemesis]

Happy Birthday, BTW

Thanks.

And if he's the Doc, he can't help unless we get to night. If he can help us now, I want him to help us now.

How would he be able to help us now by being the Doc?

[Quote="Xpom"My argument with Nemesis was me trying to implicate him because I think he's mafia. [/Quote]

Which is nice, but you've not actually been giving out reasons why anyone else could be scum. You've just appeared to be bloodthirsty when the opportunity to hammer presents itself. Given that there are definately 2 scum alive, it might be helpful if you tried to find the second one? (As from your POV I am the first...)

The willingness to lynch Lutenit and Alan didn't actually give any reasons other than "to end the day".

I'll answer any specific questions about why I lynched Alan, but I feel that everyone else who was voting for him is just as guilty as I.

That's debateable, although I do agree that everyone that is part of a lynch is responsible. (Which is why I made sure Lutenit was happy with his vote, I didn't want him worming his way out of being accountable.)

But Alan refused to post anything else that day, I'd have lynched him for that alone.

-----------

Slightly pointless comment that might make some discussion happen:

Is Stoofer's 1st Law likely to apply to this setup?

Official Vote Count

Not Voting - 5 (JimmyJammas, Muerrto, Nemesis, Xpom Telo, Xtoxm)

3 to Lynch

[Nemesis]

I guess that's true, although I'm not sure what tells someone who hasn't had an investigation can give. The only thing he did that could possibly be taken to be copish was keeping his head down, but that's not even a proper tell.

*Shrug.*

What happens if the mafia are really smart AND the town is really dumb?

Luck comes into play?

[Nemesis]

As for the doctor/roleblocker argument? I'm not sure. As a newbie I can't see Lutenit as either because usually newbies get excited and enjoy playing when they have a role like that. Same mostly for scum but not quite as much, some people don't like being scum because they get attacked if they give away tells and they can't handle it.

I wouldn't consider his role as important as you do. While it could be a factor, the day is all talk anyway. But then again I havn't done much research into why people flake.

First thing to say - We're at LYLO, we need to all claim.

Hey. I'm not sure that massclaiming is the ideal play, we know we have one doc alive... If we all agree who we are going to lynch before we actually lynch them, it would give someone time to claim.

The thing with mass claiming is, we'd only clear 1 person and it would effectively kill them or if the scum chooses, they could just roleblock the doc every night. (Until the roleblocker dies.)

If he claimed and died(which he did) it'd be the same as if he refused to claim and died and he'd still be dead so how did it narrow the choices?

Lutenit didn't die, that's who Xtoxm was talking about.

And how exactly do you 'confirm' the doctor? The person being protected isn't TOLD he's being protected and the doctor has no outside knowledge so he might have protected scum last night.

You confirm the doc if no one counterclaims. Should someone counterclaim then we've got a 50/50 chance of lynching scum.

vote Muerrto

Oh dear God... Well this day is going to last long.

If we were to get a majority to agree to lynch someone, it would stop a speedlynch and give the doc a chance to claim before he was lynched.

[Nemesis]

We are in LYLO. Either one scum is lynched today, or town lose. The RB cannot both kill and RB. They always choose to kill. Obviously.

There was a poll in MD about this. The majority of people seemed to think he could do both.

As of now, the official ruling from me is that if there is only the Mafia RB left (ie: the goon has been lynched), he/she will get BOTH his kill and his roleblock ability to use at night. If I change my mind, I'll let you all know. - Mod

The doc staying hidden has only one advantage, and it's a very small chance of happening. If we lynch scum today, the doc isn't targeted and he protects the right guy, then we can afford a mis-lynch on town tommorrow, aslong as the doc once again tomorrow night is not targetted and protects the right guy.

There's also, should we survive today and the doc protects someone tonight, if there are no kills then the doc has either a confirmed or a WIFOM no kill to work around.

It's a small bonus, and obviously it isn't concrete... But it is worth mentioning.

Should we all agree on someone to lynch and give them time to claim doc, it would give both sides their pros, I think.

The mafia would be fools not to counterclaim

The more I think about this, the more I don't see it.

5 alive at the moment. Should the doc claim and not be counterclaimed, that leaves 2 scum and 2 vanilla. That's the same as 1 false claiming doc (percentagewise).

No matter which way I look at it, I think leaving the doc a chance to claim is better than forcing him to claim... But it is way better than not giving the doc a chance to claim at all before we lynch him.

Muerrto, when do you suggest a doc claims if he is in danger of being lynched?

[Nemesis]

JJ, you are usually on about this time, what do you make of all this?

Also, Xpom, have you anything new to add?

[Nemesis]

Vote Muerrto

Muerrto is one from lynch now...

[Nemesis]

Well way to clear yourself...

At least we know you arn't scum or you'd have hammered.

[Nemesis]

lol, there we go.

[Nemesis]

Heh, that was fun. I saw your name left the who is online list on the main page for a second earlier, I kept thinking Xtoxm was going to unvote.

And that was to make sure you knew I was here.

Good game all. Xpom scared the hell of out me by finding me out so early. I was very rusty coming into this game, but it all worked out I guess.

[Nemesis]

Yeah, that's it. It was 3 to lynch, we get a nice death scene when the mod notices it's over. That or I've got one hell of an interesting WIFOM arguement going on...

[Nemesis]

LOL. Should we tell him it's over?

Sorry man, you died a little while ago.

[Nemesis]

Don't rely on the who's online thing though. People can be invisible. That's why I waited for you to post.

And thanks all for a great game, including the mod who was awesome. (Or will be, when we get the deathscene.)

[Nemesis]

Night Actions:

Zyrconium investigated Nemesis Night 1 (Scum got lucky!).

Oh wow, that was lucky. Nice try Zyrc.

OMG I just realised on day 1 I was fine with lynching either Alan or JJ but I'd rather lynched JJ but Nemesis was gung ho on Alan and wouldn't move so I switched over!!!

That was one of my worries when day 1 ended. The fact it took me ages to actually find something of JJ's to disagree with at the start then in the end I was clearly favouring an Alan lynch.

Xpom really had me pegged from page 4, that impressed me no end. From the looks of his protect, he seemed to trust JJ though... So our team balanced out ok.

Thanks JJ for being scum with me, it was interesting to say the least.

[Nemesis]

I havn't seen scum singlehandedly get their buddy lynched for no reason, but they'd do it if the trust was worth the loss of their buddy.

It's rather situational. To some extent it is an over rated play, but perhaps that is because everyone is so used to it.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: Distancing is always good though.

And Muerrto is right, if your partner is acting scummy as hell then you risk a lot by not appearing to be willing to lynch him.
For example: If you were lynched and people looked back to day 1, I'm sure I would have had some questions to answer. But I figured the risk was worth it in that situation, also the roleblocker ability you had was important, losing that would have left a pretty easy way for the town to clear half of itself.