Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[Keychain]

Very slow loading.


VOTE: UC Voyager
Hello again! I have not seen you play scum yet I believe and I'm excited to see whether this is the game.

Also I fully expect

Creature

to be reading this thread in particular. Don't care about other threads but please make sure he reads this.

Why is this?

[Keychain]

I'm definitely going to be taking their input onboard because that's part of the fun of the team thing and I also think it'll help with my weaknesses as town. But only to the extent that I agree with it or find it worth pursuing, since I'm the one playing the game.

Why no vote when we already have some information rather than starting from scratch?

Also keen to hear your answer to your question.

[Keychain]

Transcend is three for three on reading me if you need more help and aren't just scum. And I have had scum games I've enjoyed, I should point out.

I'm interested in your Elena nullread, I'm leaning more scum there.

Keychain, From Team Cuddly - we were gonna have you <3 i'll let giga meta you. newish, goodish, townish.

This is cute though <3 I don't even know you afaik!

Thoughts on how likely teams were to factor "will people THINK i picked town" into picking scum?

To some extent, but trying to outguess that seems like it's starting to be kind of futile. Team composition and alignment preferences are a starting point but they don't do all the work for you.

Does bins not hate scum? I could've sworn they said that in the paint mafia scum chat? Fair enough.

Paint 2? I didn't think either scum chat was released.

My teammates are telling me to be more wary of Keychain than I'm being because she's

really

good at scum. I responded by pointing out her GTKAS says she hates scum, and with 5 games going I doubt she'd really go for the extra work.

You would get more information by talking

to

me. By "teammates" surely you just mean North, that sounds like something she'd say and I don't think I'm familiar with the rest of your team.
Did you do the research on my alignment preference yourself?

[Keychain]

I spoke to my team about whos read this game just for you baby

transcend called dino town, giga eyerolled at lld's scumread of me and called them gut town

This seems very shallow.

[Keychain]

Oh look more people!

I'm definitely going to be taking their input onboard because that's part of the fun of the team thing and I also think it'll help with my weaknesses as town. But only to the extent that I agree with it or find it worth pursuing, since I'm the one playing the game.

Why no vote when we already have some information rather than starting from scratch?

Also keen to hear your answer to your question.

What information do we have here? Also why do you feel like (or want) me to vote? It's a RVS vote and it does not acomplish much at all this talk on "Player A prefs (town/scum)" is a huge wifom fest like I could tell you: My mains pref scum but on my tryhard account I pref town but that really does help nothing because it's a huge wifom as I already said
What does voting do for you

As to answer your question (or my own) I will mostly be working solo/not asking for help as I want to be the helper not the help...e? If my team has a strong read I will hear it but mostly I will be doing things myself why did you want my answer over others?

The WIFOM

is

the information. Normally you start a game and town has zero information because everyone has the same chance of being scum. We started this game with just a little bit more. Obviously yes it isn't the be all and end all, but it's a starting point that you ignored and here seem to be arguing against using it at all. I suppose it makes sense since I've heard you'd be likely to pick a scum role if you had the option. Players expected to take scum (and especially who

did

take scum) will presumably always try and deemphasise the whole selection thing.

To me, voting builds game momentum. I guess to me it feels like... it's like we're all sitting in a car talking about where to go but it's only by placing votes that we actually move anywhere. That's just me though.

I wanted your answer because you asked the question but didn't answer it.

VOTE: Elena Fisher

Your icebreaker question was awkward and most of your early content in 66 and onwards was putting the brakes on rather than advancing the game with what you thought we should be doing instead.

I sometimes find it hard to read your posts, my apologies. After 102 are you still scumreading LLD?

[Keychain]

Keychain I gut-disagree with you on Elena's motivation there. You're basically suggesting that scum would come into the thread and shit all over the information we have and be like "WELL MY JOB HERE IS DONE" and fuck right off. Makes much more sense coming from town that just complains about shit a lot.

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. You're kind of maligning her as either alignment here - reducing town's faith in the information we have available is a pretty good scum strategy.

I'm interested in your Elena nullread, I'm leaning more scum there.

I'm trying really hard to imagine someone actually being interested in the nature of someone's page-one null read, and I can't.

Maybe I should rephrase it.
"You have Elena as a nullread but I thought she was scummy. This is a difference in our reads I find interesting and feel I should mention."
He had reads on other players, but not on someone I found scummy.

[Keychain]

Right so we're not lynching UC Voyager today because it takes a minimum of one full ACTIVE day to sort him with >80% accuracy. I played with scum-him. If he actually picked scum this is easy mode.

I'm not going to say why I want Creature watching this game. It has nothing to do with rulebreaking, it's just not something I want to talk about.

I expect regular reads from Creature, with basic reasoning.

why would i pick scum when i have a trash scum record.

This doesn't sound like you

From what I remember, you're more proud of your scumgame than your towngame. Has that changed?

[Keychain]

I lose most of my games, don't get knocked down.

I also have messages. Apparently of the

utmost urgency

and can't wait until I get back from the supermarket.

Firebringer says hi.

RC says

No, I am very pleased with both of your posting levels since I have entered the game.

I am altering the posting levels. Pray I do not alter them any further.

[Keychain]

Happy birthday Elena! Hope you're okay Smocaine.


I got some extra eyes.

Zach says that Elena is playing really affably, like she's on tiptoes and thinks it's a scumtell so that reassures me on that vote.
He's also leaning scum on Bins, first post in particular and thinks that while 122 is her best post, it also doesn't say a whole lot. On the other hand RC thinks she's town, I'm leaning that way too.

Spoiler: @Bins

Zach also says to remember that time he and Transcend wrecked you in Paint and another thing I can't really paraphrase but was very Zach.

Also I'm hearing about LLD being scum.

- Keychain is locktown due to how she answered Elena somewhere

what

[Keychain]

ask keech or raybells why bins is town,

if it wasn't clear, i bolded this because out of that paragraph it was something important that needs to be answered.

Hello, yes, I did catch this out of the whole longwinded thing. A good amount of it looked a wee bit nasty and snappy so I'm skipping it for tonight.

Explanation Raybells gave when I asked is that scum!Bins is giggle-inducing. That's it.
I liked 122 - that was pretty much entirely where my Bins read was coming from. It's a good analysis of why someone claiming their team received all town PMs (unprompted) is scummy. And the appeal to RC regarding her being awkward as town seems to line up with what he told me, which is also good. Not married to the read but also not interested in lynching there atm.

[Keychain]

I've also looked at the less talky half of the game and have some comments and reads on that.

UCV

: feeling a lack of the usual enthusiasm from here which is saddening. But I see no reason to lynch him today, and I don't think that's going to change.

Radja

: I don't understand 190's

LLD's entrance felt a bit rehearsed to me, but obv she has to post something like that.

comment, like at all. Why does she have to? I particularly like 363's

To me, it looks like you don't want people to assume you took a scum role and you also don't want people to assume others may have taken a town role. I mean, that play only makes sense if you actually did take a scum role to me.

Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong though, because I am not seeing it.

and then the double down in 425, though the level of certainty there was a surprise after an ISO that seemed pretty conservative with making statements like that.

Bulbazak

: The early sensitivity to buddying and the retaliation against skirt skirt seems town to me. But 307's

I admit the post was probably janky. I was trying to both get into the game and give some of my thoughts at the same time after having read 10 pages. I mean, I could have just given reads without explanation, but after Surreptitious, I'm trying to explain my thought process a bit more, because apparently, what I think is really obvious ends up being not so for most people. So if I have some reasoning for a read, I'm going to at least try saying a bit of how I came to that conclusion. If it's all still a bit vague in my head still, or if I'm wanting to withhold the reasoning for the moment, I'll just give a quick read and leave it at that.

is a worry, same as every other time someone has said they're scummy because they're switching things up. Otherwise townread on Bulba.

Smocaine

: Don't understand the LLD vote in 76. Otherwise there's also nothing in this ISO apart from the MathBlade/Mathdino mixup. More more.

T-Bone

: is an interesting one. I agreed with 390's

KMD's thoughts tank your slots' credibility...because A) this is a lazy read through by him or B) a lazy readthrough by him to try and give the appearance you and your team are scumhunting in earnest.

But otherwise there's not much here besides a refusal to wagon Bins in 469 and a theory conversation of great gravitas with Mathdino that doesn't appear to move the game in any direction.

Aeronaut

: Seeing like nothing useful regarding reads or anything from here, just poky questions and that initial Math townread. Hi Aeronaut! You're one of the people in this game I've wanted to play with. Do you have scumreads, townreads, inbetweenreads?

LLD

: The way that she came in with a plan right off the bat was alarming to me. 72 is pretty questionable - what about someone's willingness to read and ability to keep events mentally lined up is alignment indicative?
also not sure where the anger in 97 is coming from considering the prior post is pretty civil, and 101 seems to act like 97 never happened. Otherwise 101 is reasonable but I need to check the conviction theory.
Regarding 435: <3

[Keychain]

Okay, thank you! The capslock threw me.

Also my bad, T-Bone wasn't interested in Bins in 451, not 469, and I think that's referring to a wagon. Should have checked my links before I posted. The rest should be fine though.

[Keychain]

Off the top of my head and with a skim through your ISO to refresh my memory, town. Your posts are cautious and suspicious, you don't back away from conflicts and your train of thought seems to be clear and solid throughout the game.

[Keychain]

Bins you should come join me on Elena. It'll be fun.

(Catching up this way is a pain I rather just engage with keychain bulba and skirt on reads atm but beggars can't be choosers)

You can engage with me. You post a post and I'll respond to the post when I can, it'll be great. What did you want to talk about?

[...] the only person from another team who I'd be interested in hearing how they feel about me would be RC

He thinks you voting his townread is really strange.

Edit: I could trust RC's take on Elena. Keychain being town makes RC a good resource.

Radiant Cowbells

: Request full updated reads up to this point on Bins, Elena, skirt, and let's say Bulbazak.

RC is pretty busy and has other things to do but I've passed the message on and he'll get to it when he can hopefully. The Bins giggle thing and the Elena y u vote my townread are the only recent things I've gotten from him. Until then you just get me

this discussion is stupid and is pretty useless to determining each other's alignments

neither of you are intentionally lying on this, get over it

But you said my entire post was ad hom. Are you only referring to the spoiler I labeled as not overly game related? Or my entire post? Because if its only the spoiler, then you lied already. If its not, you're stupid already. Pick. Liar or Stupid.

does lying mean one is scum? 100%

no to uc. to math, he may have his "new" reasons for scumreading me, but I want him to at least acknowledge that I responded not ad-hom to each of his arguments against me, and most of them are factually disproven and not just opinionated replies. adding swear words in does not immediately discount the post as a whole.

If you could quote things instead of screenshotting them, that would be way preferable. I play nearly exclusively from mobile and I can't really read these that well.

[Keychain]

important message from RadiantCowbells

Spoiler:

RC, RC. They call for him. A scummer who became a Corleone, a Corleone who became a scumhunter, a scumhunter who defied an emperor.

Elena I'll respond when I have time okay? Not really in the best position atm

[Keychain]

RC says A50 likely town, I don't have an opinion at this point in time so happy to trust him on that for now.

You can engage with me. You post a post and I'll respond to the post when I can, it'll be great. What did you want to talk about?

I am your top sr so why don't you state why you sr me and ask me a few questions and I'll do some in return it seems for me being your top sr you haven't done much to push me or show I'm scum.
sound good?

189 and Zach's agreement in 330 are the only things I've said about my scumread on you, yes. When Zach said that I was like... yeah, actually, you said something that made way more sense as scum having fun.

Also how dare you call me derptown I'm offended!

Am I wrong in that most players aren't generally fans of being called derptown when they're town? This reaction was strange. You're still my top scumread because I've not really seen anything from you to change my mind on the read.

I'm not focusing on you that much because there's 13 other players to pay attention to, and I feel better about my scumreads when I have everyone in mind at once which I don't right now. So I'd like to work through them to figure out if there's someone I should be pushing over you before I commit too hard to this. There's time.

Questions!

Skirt Dunker
Channel Bulbazak,
Radja,
T-bone Aeronaut Smocaine UC Voyager,
Keychain
Bins LLD

Almost50 Mathdino, (no comment for now as I don't want to go into detail on these)
feels good for now read wise

This is a readslist from town to scum with two removed right?
So that makes me, LLD, Bins your top scumreads.

I don't know why you'd be scumreading me apart from my vote on you and possibly a perceived lack of engagement with you.

541 on Bins seems to be a scumread based on her having a weak scumread on you that you think is just because you're scary, which iirc she said about multiple players. Doesn't seem weird to me that she wouldn't have in depth reads on everyone.

And I'm not sure why LLD is equal with Bins on the list after I asked you about it earlier and you said

I don't have LLD as "scum" I can see her flipping scum

though although I have a bit of whiplash given the vote was on somewhat of a misunderstanding and as I said I wouldn't pick scum if I had the chance (but blah self meta) I was arguing against it because the point is

Yes we get to choose who gets town/scum if we have the choice but every player knows it and can use to amount the info like "ok no one would expect me to take scum/town" and use it that way that's why I hate that people are using it for a huge base of there read I don't mind it as much if it was a supporting ground to a read you have but not the full thing. Also how dare you call my icebreaker question awkward I needed that info!

(bolding mine)

That doesn't seem like something you say about a top scumread and I don't think I saw you renew to the scumread before this list.

Basically - are those your top three scumreads and if so could you flesh them out a bit?

Let me know if I misunderstood you anywhere.

[Keychain]

Hi doggo!

btw: channel!scum

discuss

Disagree off the bat. Is this something I should look into?

Updated ISO reads:

Keychain

- While I know Keychain can pretty much carbon copy her townplay as scum from being in Paint Mafia. I don't think her asking RC is fabricated because of the response she got. Need more but I'm not interested in lynching Keychain today.

Mathdino

- I read the flipflopping and flailing as town and I think his paranoia on me was genuine, rather than opportunistic. I think Math would be more comfortable playing town as well, having not played a scum game in quite a long time. The weird "leads" he has are lost on me, but I think they give greater indication that he's unlikely scum and faking it.

Dunkerdoodles

- Seems town. Don't think he'd pick scum. Not familar with his scumplay, but I don't have pings from him.

CDB

- I don't know how to approach reading CDB, but his tone comes across as one of the most town in the game right now. Just the way he's addressing things, even general stuff, doesn't seem like it'd come from scum.

Radja

- Similar to the Bulba read. Nothing seems outside what he'd be capable of putting out as scum, but I don't really have any reason to scumread him.

skirt skirt

- In my opinion, town gets angry like that more than scum does. I really don't mind his posts, but my team sees otherwise, so I'm going to leave this as yellow for now.

Aeronaut

- Null. Still a surface read. Less worried because the entry seemed good from the perspective of Team Mafia.

UCV

- The rage really bugged me because it came across as awkward, but I'm not sure I can swing it as alignment indicative. I still don't know if UCV plays scum in this situation.

A50

- I've bumped this read up because the last few pages read less like manipulation and more like batshit crazy town Almost. His push on me still seems a little confusing, but I think it puts him more at town in my books when I reread it.

Smocaine

- Really not much here right now, but gun to the head I have no issues with the slot and very little paranoia.

Bulba

- I think everything Bulba has done is well within his limits of what he can do as scum, but his read on me is the main reason I'm townreading him. Push on skirt seems to have merit (thanks SK) / doesn't seem like a scum push.

---

Elena

- Her reaction to my suggestion of voting her was initially odd to me, but I actual think it's pretty natural. I feel I would react (and have reacted) similarly. She's acting a little aggressive for what I'm comfortable putting as "town" but I'm unsure if I can read it as confidently scum. I also think the out of place Chara comment was natural, and not done to gain a townread. I still think Maria would be comfortable playing scum in Team Mafia, but I think I need more reactions from her.

T-Bone

- The only read out of my "I don't know what to do with this slot" reads that I'm leaning more scum on.

LLD

- Similar to above, but I just can't shake the bad gut vibes I'm getting from the LLD posts.

Bins, this super broad overview is cool and all but I would like more detail and also I want to talk to you - we're mutually townreading each other for now, let's work with this. Which player do you have the most conflicted read over?

Incidentally I don't believe you or anyone on your team is familiar with my townplay and so I don't get where that part of your read is coming from.

[Keychain]

Math you've gotta work with the players you've got. Getting yourself tangled into knots over playstyle does not help lynch scum. Well at least it never helps me.

engage doggo im trying to get into this game it's not working

Elena i kinda sr

why do you scumread her? or tell me why T-Bone is a better vote.

ucv is town. is there any wagon that was on him at some point? bet scum hopped on that like cake because he's such a giant fucking lynchbait.

It's D1. Do you think they'd push him or whiteknight him?

UCV is tough to sort when he's basically not even here outside of responding to me

This is true.

@UCV:

right now your vote is on someone your team told you to vote but that you had no apparent opinion on. I've seen you have good reads yourself. Who in the playerlist do

you

most want lynched at this moment? Who do you definitely want to live to D2?

I actually meta'd you when I was reading Paint Mafia and thought you had me fooled 100%.

I'm not sure how to read T-Bone after his reaction to my reads.

you were scum why tf were you doing meta research

Why did his reaction put you off balance?

I should probably just say the players I think are more likely to be town at this point. Add in Bins and keychain, and that's how I feel atm. Sincerely I think other than me, Bulba is the most pro-town force at this stage of the game.

T-Bone you and your reads are a complete mystery to me right now. Who do you think is scum and why?

[Keychain]

I'm a slow reader and you guys talked lots while I was sleeping. Bear with me while I respond to this post, I had to get out my laptop for formatting and everything. I think there were some other things I was supposed to talk about too.

189 and Zach's agreement in 330 are the only things I've said about my scumread on you, yes. When Zach said that I was like... yeah, actually, you said something that made way more sense as scum having fun.

I would like to hear more on why Zach thinks I'm playing on my tiptoes as I don't feel like I'm doing that at all observing the game state? Yes but tiptoes? No Zach should know I love playing as scum and I wouldn't be playing on my tip toes if that was the case.

I will check with Zach.

This reaction was strange.

I'm not going to let a few words on the internet offended me calling me derptown. I know for a fact I'm a good player (At least I'd like to think so) and I'm not "derptown" do you feel I should've been offended?
The icebreaker question was needed because I wanted to see who I could talk reads on and people not just fall back on "oh my team said that" I can't really work with that at all whereas if people flesh out there reads I know I can poke and prod at them

I don't think you should have been offended - I just thought the whole laughing joking thing made

way

more sense coming from scum and I thought I'd seen you get a bit heated up when people accuse you of bad play as town. I might not be remembering correctly, but the quote stood out.

Interesting reasoning for the icebreaker question - but it doesn't seem like you've had any trouble poking at Zach's reasoning, it'll just take a bit longer to get a response.

I'm not focusing on you that much because there's 13 other players to pay attention to, and I feel better about my scumreads when I have everyone in mind at once which I don't right now. So I'd like to work through them to figure out if there's someone I should be pushing over you before I commit too hard to this. There's time.

If this is the case do you have any other sr's or really big tr's on mind?

521 is in order from town to scum, if it helps. I'm trusting RC's read on Bins so she's my biggest townread atm. Working with Mathdino as town.

I don't know why you'd be scumreading me apart from my vote on you and possibly a perceived lack of engagement with you.

You're mostly there on the reads list because I don't feel good putting you on the same tier with people above you I'd say I'm good calling Bins and LLD scum (although I might be biased on bins and I'm getting a friend to read bins as they can read her very easily) you seem confident to say the least on your sr on me so I found it strange you're just letting wagons like transcend/skirt or t-bone go by and you're not asking how I feel about them or trying to go "hey let's wagon Elena" it doesn't feel real or you're trying to game solve just having reads for the sake of having reads feel free to prove me wrong on this statement

When I was making my reads list I was looking over the players and I always ask "who would I lynch over ___" and this is the list I got so yes I guess I do sr LLD

Bins play around me is just outright weird she has me as "scared" and she's playing around my slot really badly and I feel now that I'm pushing on her she finally puts me as "scum" instead of "Oh Maria would take a scum role" it doesn't feel normal it's weird and scummy to me

I was half interested in the skirt wagon but not really willing to vote there, and less so now. What gave you the impression of confidence in my scumread? Given the fact that I've seen people make statements that seem to be mutually exclusive with reading my posts, it seems to be I must be coming across considerably less forceful than usual. Also not sure why you think I'm not trying to get people to wagon you. There's examples of me either straight asking (Bins in 613), or gauging interest in it (Transcend in 723, though he ignored it). Who's your friend reading Bins?

I may just be a terrible scumhunter but it didn't occur to me to ask you about what you thought about the wagons! Thanks Especially because I was sitting here thinking that if you're scum I've got no real means to build momentum on your lynch without getting more from you, people seem to be unwilling to vote you. However I did say "perceived" for a reason - I've made an effort to engage with you. After I developed an early scumread on you I asked you a question, then in the post I voted you I asked you another question. Just because I'm not engaging you in the way you

want

doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Equally though, like I just said, I can't spend all my time focusing on you even while you are my top scumread, so if you expect that I'm sorry I will disappoint you. My attention is split about sixty bazillion ways. It's fun but exhausting. I do know I'm not the only one.
The Bins read seems sensible though I disagree.

I would argue that by explicitly not tunnelling you and trying to get reads on more players, I'm gamesolving. Isn't this the second time you've pulled this argument? Why did you think you'd be proven wrong?

Questions!:
How do you feel about the Skirt and T-bone wagons do you like them?
You talked on how people can pick there ali how much do you carry that as value in a read?
What is your fav type of pie?

I don't like the skirt wagon anymore, I think. I do like the T-Bone wagon and I'm considering switching to it if I can't get anyone else on you. Reasons in 521 - dude's not scumhunting. Like at all. I'm hoping he'll respond to me about his reads.

I already said I think alignment preference is a starting point but not a case.

Favourite pie is lamb and kumara! It's soooo good.


So your LLD scumread is literally just... you would rather lynch her instead of anyone else? Do you have any further reasons? You might have answered this since you made this post but if not that's my next question!

[Keychain]

2. People stick their fingers in their butthole for a fortnight. They overanalyze everything. Overassess everything. Overthink everything. When more often than not, your initial rvs knee-jerk reaction scum read ends up being a red flip. Mods do not ever give extensions unless it is a dire scenario because if you take longer than 14 days to decide a flip, then you are absolutely fucking pathetic.

Maybe take... hmm, two seconds? three? to realise that nobody is voting Elena with me despite scumreading her and that's my end goal here if nobody can convince me she's town or that I'm better off voting elsewhere. You tried spamming "LYNCH KEYCHAIN" when I was scum, remember how well that worked?

Like what do you want here? A T-Bone vote?

[Keychain]

Spoiler: LLD posts

Not really. I'm not the biggest fan of pre-flip wagonomics. Town is often wagoned by solely town, and scum by mostly scum. It's not like you're really hard pushing LLD either.

Like, regardless of your alignment, the PoE still works. Most if not all the active players seem pretty town so LLD is a natural lynch.

Posts like this are why Team Mafia is a fucking cancer for me right now and demotivate me to even want to post when I'm stressed about other shit.

Like, in a normal game I'd fucking lambaste anyone who pulled this shit but in Team Mafia it's like, sure, I have to account that town is going to be infinitely more paranoid of me.

I mean, you discredit me (when you said I said I would take the scum PM, I never said that. I said specifically that I took the left over PM, hence why I'm in a fucking normal game despite me not playing normal games as a general rule), you push horse crap like this because it "makes sense" despite your own fucking observations that I'm a good fucking player and lynching me like that is fucking stupid.

And I have to sit here and try to fucking parse the idiot townies who are paranoid about me from the fucking scum players who view me as an easy mislynch because of my history and skill.

And it's literally impossible to fucking tell because I have a hard townread on you from early shit today and here you are doing quite possibly the best imitation of how I would expect scum to go about suggesting this.

Like honestly fuck Team Mafia. Half the games I'm reading are full of assholes like Mulch and RC and Mastin posting their cancer, and then I have to fucking come home to my own fucking game and pretend I give a fuck when it's nearly impossible to motivate myself to do so when literally every player is like "oh we town read LLD... but let's lynch her anyway because PARANOIA".

For the record, Bins' response to me asking them to explicate which posts of mine they felt were aggressive was answered with "oh you know, all of them, especially that one you specifically said was a joke prior to my posting this accusation".

Like... again, normally I'd just wagon this fucking person, but in this game it seems that the townies all want to succumb to paranoia and the scum are MORE THAN HAPPY TO LET THEM.

So whatever. I kinda hope we lose this game, tbh. Just so idiots can stop being fucking stupid about me and maybe the next time I play a game where any meta is involved like this one people will STOP BEING FUCKING ASSCLOWNS.

oh and THAT'S an aggressive post, for the record. For anyone fucking counting.

Like I made a promise to my team to try my hardest in this game and giving a single fuck about anything written in it may be the literal hardest thing I've ever had to do in a mafia game.

I've just been informed by two teammates (one surer than the other) when I mentioned these posts to them that they are unquestionably scum LLD doing scum AtE and she should be quicklynched on this basis without letting her claim. I don't like quicklynches but I do agree on the read.

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

With Firebringer telling me LLD scum from early on as well, I'm totally fine with going down this road. I see she's going V/LA. That's okay.

[Keychain]

You can just say "did RC say it", you know.

RC is very sure and is the one pushing for the quicklynch and no claim (and also sends his deepest love to GreyICE in a way that I'm hoping isn't antagonistic). Postie agreed with the read but said she wasn't as familiar with LLD's meta.

It was also suggested earlier Elena/LLD could be SvS, so I wouldn't rule bussing out though that's not something I personally know much about.

If we're speedlynching this based on meta-tonereads I'm down but only with rock solid validation from other players that know LLD.

This is not something I expected you to say after your disagreement with Transcend.

[Keychain]

Right. I see I kicked a beehive. LLD, if you need to cool off, stop posting and do so. Toxicity is of the devil regardless of alignment and makes games unpleasant to play.

I am not passing on hateful messages for either of you. The GreyICE thing was apparently in good faith but I apologise if I shouldn't have passed it on.

I'm the one in this game on this team, so deal with me and ignore him if you must. I trust RC's townreads more than his scumreads as a general rule anyway.

I'm not dealing with this. I'm going to bed.

[Keychain]

In order of preference: LLD, Elena, T-Bone, Aeronaut would be my ideal lynchpool.

I'd put UCV in there because the more he says the more I feel like he might actually be scum, but he's like never the appropriate D1 lynch so no.

I don't think Aeronaut not posting for a while after daystart clears him. Not sure what to do about Smocaine.


Transcend's 1121 should never have been made jfc

[Keychain]

Welcome Titus! I thought it wasn't allowed for the same player to play in two different games, let alone be on two different teams

I restarted reading from my last actual post before my LLD vote so it might look like I'm going backwards a bit here, sorry. I'll break it into a few posts because I think I have too many things I want to comment on.

Dunn tr's both bins and keychain (more so on bins) before I go

Spoiler: For Dunnstral

Also, she is right. AtE isn’t a scumtell. It’s just something she can fake very well. But it doesn’t mean it is fake.

I do think this AtE was scum-motivated, though you're right that AtE isn't a scumtell in itself.
1016 and 1017 came fairly out of left field and seemed pretty uhh... reachy? Like she wasn't under pressure, it was just a few throwaway comments which A50 and Elena have also been subject to, and she went off at them. I can understand being furious as town when people are wagoning you because of your alignment preference and nothing else. But nobody was. Well except that Smocaine vote.
Effectively it seemed like instead of generating game content, she came out of nowhere to kick up a large fuss about something she was

expecting

to happen and to need to defend herself against, but turned out needing not to. It reads to me like defensive scum and exclaiming that people were paranoia lynching her despite townreading her was just generally incredibly hollow to me.
That said, she makes a good post in 1021 if you look past the haze, but in 1022 she resumes her stance of being past her limit despite again not really being under any pressure, and 1024 suggests she

would

scumhunt but that would be work. I understand that sentiment and it could come from town, yes, but she couches it in a kind of aggressive metaphor that means nobody can really call her out on it. And her response to me in 1047 where she claims the game is literally unplayable for her is total exaggeration. Again. She was under nearly zero pressure, and this theme continues through her argument with Elena.
I'm still happy with a scumread on this slot, I believe the AtE was scum-motivated, and I'm keen to hear from whoever replaces in for her.

oh holy shit yeah maria and LLD are not scum together

otherwise LLD would know who the fuck she is

fantastic yet another scumteam eliminated xD

I think the below sequence is eminently fakeable, particularly the way LLD ignores Elena telling her who she is the first time, so I'm certainly not dismissing the possibility of them as partners. You have an uncomfortable tendency to rule out options with fairly weak reasons, you're doing the same with Aero and you've done the same with me based on what I've said about my dislike of scum.

Spoiler: this sequence here

Not so confident on who the 3rd scum is atm after talking with Chara and Dunn zzz
Pedit: I'm Maria/Maki

I've correctly sr you about 3 times I believe and you fooled me once.
I think you're scum for your game here nothing more nothing less.

I've literally never played with you.

You know Elena is claire right?

Who?

I've correctly sr you about 3 times I believe and you fooled me once.
I think you're scum for your game here nothing more nothing less.

I've literally never played with you.

Maria/Maki yes you have
cut the bs

I've correctly sr you about 3 times I believe and you fooled me once.
I think you're scum for your game here nothing more nothing less.

I've literally never played with you.

Maria/Maki yes you have
cut the bs

OH.

THE FUCK ARE YOU PLAYING ON THIS ALT FOR LOL

The problem is that almost everyone in this game plays by townbloccing people and lynching the rest.

Oh friend I can do super duper deathtunnel mode if you want, I've been trying not to because it has this funny way of making me lose

[Keychain]

Next, things regarding T-Bone:

Okay, real talk now.

Elena, in a vacuum...who convinces you more that they think I am scum. Math or Skirt/Transcend? I suppose anyone else can answer this question too, and then hopefully we'll see what I'm getting at. Something caught my eye.

Not a fan of "are you seeing what I'm seeing" kinds of questions, same way I wasn't really when LLD did it at the start of the game. Fun defensive response from Dino though in 940 and 943.

Also please use post tags from now on so I can check the posts you're referring to without having to hunt them down please <3

Absolute madness that you can look at those series of posts and think they are game relevant.

This post just... is not good. Looking through the posts for the content in them is

towny

, not "absolute madness", and discouraging people from doing do is scummy as heck.

It's absolute lunacy that anyone could have a townread on Transcend for anything he's done. He's playing like scum.

Again, how is casting potential opinions as completely nuts in any way useful?

Math. Town players do not say 'if my top scumread flips town, I'm just gonna carry on to the other player". Town players don't make those associations, because town players don't know anyone's alignment. Town players don't just move down a list when they get a read wrong. He knows I'm town, and that's why he said that.

This made me tilt my head a bit. Town can be silly and overconfident, and frequently do line up their reads in order of confidence - why did you pick this out?

[Keychain]

Finally regarding the townreads on me:

Should we be taking another look at Keychain here? Remind me why she's locktown other than meta?

You also had a weird read from Kmd at one point according to 324. But yes, you should probably not just give me a pass based on meta.
I will say that unless skirt/Transcend/now Titus and I are scum together, I really wouldn't have told skirt skirt that Transcend has a great record of reading me. Like I wouldn't be highlighting and giving credence to that read, when my best strategy versus town!Transcend so far as scum is to use the fact that he can be a bit bad at convincing townies sometimes.

Keychain... Keychain... Keychain...

does not deserve to be my biggest townread. RC was scum before and he townread me and he won. I’m dumb to have no made that easy connection.

Not a scumread, but why it’s been a free pass was a mistake and now my PoE is getting stricter the more I feel wrong about my reads.

The thing is. If Keychain were scum, RC would definitely tell her to townread me and get on my good side. That’s all.
My list is narrowing.

Same here, but I will point out that it's the specific reason RC is townreading you that you seemed to find particularly convincing. Also why would he tell me to townread you? I'd have considered you reasonably lynchable

[Keychain]

keychain i'm bad at math now

can you crunch the numbers on the percentage chance of bins/LLD scumteam

thanks

Oh no I hope you get your math powers back

Bins and LLD as partners? Yeah so I started going through their ISOs together to see how they interacted then I realised that's work I'm not doing until one of them flips scum or I otherwise have good reason to focus on that pairing, sorry. From the little bit I

did

do, Bins starts her first post backing up a theory in 106 (claiming you received all town role PMs unprompted is suspicious) which would implicate LLD (who did so in 41) and continues along that track for a bit into naming LLD in 126, but while that makes it less likely really I see no reason why they couldn't be partnered. I townread Bins right now though.

Why the question?

[Keychain]

Key, if your scumgame is so polar opposite of your towngame, what even is the point of playing?

Hmm?

I win a higher percentage of my scum games than my town games, so I don't appear to be crippling my scumplay so far. But you know, I also lose more of my games than I win. I play for fun, god knows what you're doing

You've only seen me play as scum in our games together iirc.


Do you have reads or actual game content to share?

[Keychain]

Oh hi. Why?

I'm saying you don't look at all like paint maf you

Oh okay. Yeah I thought I've been playing differently to Paint, since I played super badly there and I hope I haven't been playing quite so badly here. Which made this

While I know Keychain can pretty much carbon copy her townplay as scum from being in Paint Mafia

kind of odd tbh.

[Keychain]

Welcome Fitz and chesskid! I'm glad to play with you again Fitz.

Bins spit it out please I keep thinking I might know what you're getting at but you're being so vague it's hard to tell.

Bins, Eddie wants me to have you cite the meta as he usually only wallposts as town.

viewtopic.php?p=9603034#p9603034

This exchange made me laugh but I don't like the request from Eddie - trying to self meta himself in this way is weird.

actually i think this is good because smocaine was pretty town so like just find scum and help sort this mess

-_- we arent policy lynching the smocaine slot of all slots to policy

???
Can you back up this Smocaine townread? It sounds like you just got a lot surer on it and I can't tell why.

it's a policy vote/wagon
not an actual policy lynch

join it because we have nothing better to do while we wait for like 8 players to get into the game

Thought you weren't a fan of empty posting, hey, so I don't know what you're doing here.

Votecount 1.08

T-Bone (2)

Bins , Titus ,

Titus (3)

Bulbazak , T-Bone , UC Voyager ,

havingfitz (4)

Smocaine , Keychain , Elena Fisher , ChannelDelibird ,

Bins (1)

Almost50 ,

Mathdino (1)

Dunkerdoodles ,

Elena Fisher (1)

Mathdino ,

Almost50 (1)

Radja ,

Not Voting (2)

Aeronaut , havingfitz ,

Day one deadline is Sunday February 4, 9 PM PST. (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch!

[/size]

Zero desire to vote fitz with this low of a wagon participation rate. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the votes on us two were town pissed at the arguments.

Four votes is too low a participation for you to join the wagon, so you'd rather vote Math? I can understand not joining because townread, but that just seems like a ridiculous reason.

I'm through 7 pages and I just want to award a townread to whoever drops that first satisfying vote on Keychain but nobody's doing it why aren't you people generating content how I would generate content fuuuuuuuuu

<3
Would a vote on me help you somehow?


Also... Math, I think you are way overemphasising the importance of A50 self-voting that one time.

[Keychain]

Hey I'm going to get to this later tonight but I've been told pretty emphatically to tell you that the wagons on Mathdino and Bins should disperse immediately - more so Bins than Math but he's also probably town - and there's a really good chance Titus is scum.

In a few hours I'll have more to say on them.

Key I want an updated read on Elena too if you pleeeease :d

I was going the other way on her and happier with my Fitz vote, but I'll have a reread and get back to you.

[Keychain]

Awww.

there's a really good chance Titus is scum.

More specifically, RC thinks Titus is really really scum.

[Keychain]

Hi! Can you give a reason or two for that one? Or other thoughts on the game or other wagons maybe?

{Keychain, Bulbazak, Radja} - town
{CDB, Dunker} - pretty town but there's not a lot to work with
{Mathdino, UCV} - i really question play here but i'm townreading for various reasons
{Chesskid, Aero, A50} - can't really strongly justify a townread here
{tbone} - own special category 8)

My would lynch list includes:
Aeronaut (lol)
Titus(Transcend)
Havingfitz(LLD)
Elena Fisher



This really isn't anything I haven't stated before.

I love this lynchpool, a bit iffy on Aero though.

Some townreads! Current wagons I'm strongly against and which I'm getting repeatedly poked to defend are A50, Bins and Mathdino - I don't think any of them are good options for the lynch today. I feel like the game is getting bogged down a bit in "who knows who best" and that's not really my forte, so I'll go without that for now.

Mathdino

taking such a loud position means to me that if he's scum he's going to be easier to catch over time because that kind of town leader position is hard to maintain, and if he's town we're crippling ourselves pretty heavily by lynching one of our more invested townies. Add to that that I just think the way he's pushing players around just seems incredibly town-motivated. So no. Sorry Dunkers.

Bins

is pretty transparently scumhunting, she follows up on points she doesn't understand such as in 1159 which is far more likely to come from a townie reading posts with a mindset of figuring things out and she shows a level of wobble on her reads that seems to me to be much more due to uninformedness than "keeping options open" like she was accused of by Elena.

A50

is drawing attention to himself. He spent the entire early game talking about himself pretty openly while playing his cards close to the chest reads-wise. I don't see posts like 566 coming from scum - he's neither keeping below the radar or using the attention in any scum-motivated way, he's just being kind of silly. 626 and 754 show that he is developing reads and letting them out slowly, which is consistent with what he said he was doing, and 771 seems genuine. 811 is another completely audacious post that I find unlikely coming from scum. And 1219 (don't tell A50 but I read the spoilered bit) is just a good point. The constant push on Bins would be an odd strategy to take as scum - I would think he would stay more flexible, and breaking it to go after Math in 1499 seems like he did just develop a stronger scumread, and he reglued himself immediately after in 1509 and pretty much gave up the Dino thing in 1531. I'm not seeing scum motivation there.

Incidentally I see zero ambiguity in 1377 - using flimsy reasoning like "self voting" as the basis for a push is scummy, yes. 1586 is a good explanation.


Next, read on

Elena

that I promised Bins:
789 (why was 6 afraid of 7 sorry) is the same vague thing she said about me, I knew I'd seen it before. When I read Bins's ISO I see gamesolving. This seems like a pretty lazy catch-all kind of accusation, same with 798. Her read on T-Bone around that point is... weird. It seems to be entirely based on the lack of resistance she sees to the wagon, which is always an incredibly nebulous thing to try and identify and is also super easy to argue as scum.
881 is a pretty bad argument because to be honest, I do not see why any of those things do not come from town.
Not a fan of the reaction in 912, but this could be that I'm not generally a fan of "but I'm obvtown " arguments. Not sure how I feel about the T-Bone/Elena exchange (926), like at all.
1103 is since I'd expect her to have a handle on how her associatives - like it looks like she's using this to slip a scumread - but it could come from cheeky town too.
These are the things I consider scummy, but there's things that make me question a scumread on her. A lot of her posts before the recent slump have forward momentum in ways that just seem so much more likely to come from town than scum. 1148 seems really towny because I generally don't expect scum to offer ways to help players get unstuck, though I suppose there's the obvious ulterior motive in convincing townies to loosen their townreads on other townies.

So in summary - certainly not opposed to a lynch on her, but she's no longer my top scumread. Bins, can you talk to me about why you're scumreading her?

Awww.

there's a really good chance Titus is scum.

More specifically, RC thinks Titus is really really scum.

Yes, tell us more.

Something about her posting patterns. He is also majorly worried about her trying to push a quicklynch through.

I'd personally consider her posts since replace in pretty lacklustre - 1692 in particular is pretty ???. The followup in 1695 seems to be randomly shading Bins for voting on a scumread which had a pretty established progression and was therefore in no way a "survival vote". Even if she isn't reading, if Titus is using the VCs as she said she is, the most recent VC in 1593 showed that there are only two votes on Bins.

[Keychain]

Okay, I got more information on the Titus scumread. Paraphrased:
He can't really explain it but it's something about the way she talks, and Bins or most other players should be able to confirm he's pretty good at reading Titus consistently (bar Anime uPick where he says he was stalling for more time to read her). He was/is pretty concerned that Titus will try to organise a quicklynch, since this has happened before where she's been scum with town RC.

Spoiler: (VC spoilered by Keychain)

Votecount 1.08

T-Bone (2)

Bins , Titus ,

Titus (3)

Bulbazak , T-Bone , UC Voyager ,

havingfitz (4)

Smocaine , Keychain , Elena Fisher , ChannelDelibird ,

Bins (1)

Almost50 ,

Mathdino (1)

Dunkerdoodles ,

Elena Fisher (1)

Mathdino ,

Almost50 (1)

Radja ,

Not Voting (2)

Aeronaut , havingfitz ,

Day one deadline is Sunday February 4, 9 PM PST. (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch!

[/size]

Zero desire to vote fitz with this low of a wagon participation rate. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the votes on us two were town pissed at the arguments.

@Bulba, My team says they are sorry.

@Bins, Hey, you know that thing where players over explain survival votes as scum? Check. That's what you just did. Now tell me, what's your TBone read? Or is that read just a car crash waiting to happen?

These are the two posts that make him strongly believe Titus is scum. From how urgent he was, I think Titus is his top scumread right now.

[Keychain]

That's fair. I doubt Transcend can be read so strongly town by meta alone. I don't know if Fire's that familiar with Transcend but I can ask both Firebringer and Zach for a second opinion. I'm also pretty keen to develop a read of that slot from more than just the one player and they've both probably got things to say there.

Of the existing wagons of Titus, havingfitz, Bins, you, A50 and kind of Elena, I'm only lynching in Titus, Fitz and Elena.

[Keychain]

Hello, bear with me while I pass on more messages from RC.

RayBells (should be cross-referencing games, I haven't seen him do that yet)

He doesn't know exactly what you mean here with cross-referencing and would like a clarification. He suggests

hiplop

give an opinion on RC's Bins read, and you can check with Bins and Titus on whether his claim to be able to read them accurately is correct.


For Titus:
I'm not a reaction test player, but he is. He wanted to put you under some pressure early on because he reads you best in that context and didn't want to screw it up like Masamune, and his read on you is now very probably town.

He also doesn't agree with the larger part of your reads and says you should help us with Fitz.

[Keychain]

@Mathdino: Reads on Transcend from Firebringer and Zachstralkita are gut town and not scum respectively, though Zach hasn't really kept up with this game.

However Fire also added that Transcend looked like he cared quite a bit which could be a scumtell, considering Transcend is more of a zero fucks given kind of doggo. But Fire is also super set on the LLD slot as scum and doesn't think they're scum together so he's more inclined to follow his gut townread.

Bins, RC wants to know what the heck you're doing voting Titus when he's townreading her. Please vote Fitz, he's the best option of the leading wagons. Elena is not going anywhere and I'm not going to vote the Transcend/Titus slot while my teammates have townreads there.

My team is all VTs btw.

wow wtf

[Keychain]

These are the two posts that make him strongly believe Titus is scum. From how urgent he was, I think Titus is his top scumread right now.

Literally 3 posts ago in your ISO.

Want to clarify what made stubborn ol’ RC flip as if he doesn’t remember his read?

Sorry, I must not have made it clear enough.

For Titus:
I'm not a reaction test player, but he is. He wanted to put you under some pressure early on because he reads you best in that context and didn't want to screw it up like Masamune, and

his read on you is now very probably town.

He also doesn't agree with the larger part of your reads and says you should help us with Fitz.

He also said something charming about this game being toddlers he's trying to keep from falling off a balcony.

[Keychain]

Does someone want to find for me in what place Keychain voted LLd/Fitz and whether theyved moved thr vote since?

I can do that for you, though it really wouldn't have been a whole lot of work to do yourself. I voted the slot in 1028 and I have not moved my vote since.

Hello, bear with me while I pass on more messages from RC.

RayBells (should be cross-referencing games, I haven't seen him do that yet)

He doesn't know exactly what you mean here with cross-referencing and would like a clarification. He suggests

hiplop

give an opinion on RC's Bins read, and you can check with Bins and Titus on whether his claim to be able to read them accurately is correct.


For Titus:
I'm not a reaction test player, but he is. He wanted to put you under some pressure early on because he reads you best in that context and didn't want to screw it up like Masamune, and his read on you is now very probably town.

He also doesn't agree with the larger part of your reads and says you should help us with Fitz.

Explain the gamestate to me if Fitz scum please.

Hell if I know anything about the gamestate, I tend to rely more on independent reads, but I don't see reason to believe he's not scum from it. Wagons are split fairly evenly in like four different directions. I don't think they're all town and therefore we should lynch within them. Since there is guaranteed to be at least one townie in them and likely multiple, scum will most likely be pushing to lynch one of the townies. Fitz is the one I think is scum, because I have reason to townread the rest. Is that what you were looking for?

word from creature says havingfitz!scum

as well as titus

ad chesskid. I actually agree... VOTE: havingfitz titus can go tomorrow.

other than that

(bolding mine)

Picture RC being really loudly frustrated in capslock at the thought of Creature scumreading Titus when RC thinks she's town. Also hi UCV!

[Keychain]

@Mod: VC 1.12 in 1928 seems to be missing a vote from Bins.

I don't see the idea that Transcend cared at all though. Does RC have any posts in mind for that? The zero fucks given is exactly why people turned on that slot.

That was a read from Firebringer, not RC. He didn't give any posts - I can ask, but I don't think I'll be getting an answer too quick.

I seemed to recall in my read through that people were supposed to only say their entire team was vt. Was that not so?

Uh, no. TM rules say you can't say they're not

town,

and it's about alignment rather than role

Spoiler: From the ruleset

1. You may at no time say, indicate, insinuate, etc. that your Team Mafia teammates are or might be anything other than town. This includes in any hypothetical situation.

RC specially antagonizing me because I townread him is the controlling RC I can’t and won’t trust. Sorry.

I see.
You are townreading me and therefore him. He says Titus is town but you're still voting her (I think? you weren't on the VC) despite saying multiple times that you're happy to vote Fitz. Where's the antagonism here?
I'm focusing on you because you ostensibly townread me and I can see zero reason for you to be maintaining your Titus vote so close to deadline without a strong aversion to voting Fitz - at this point we need to be consolidating and Fitz is by far the stronger wagon. Like you posted

I’m debating whether or not to push this lynch now so we don’t have to do claims at DL.

when the recent votecount showed Fitz at L-2 and Titus well behind. You're basically going to a lot of effort to stay off this wagon.

It's a good step. Why do you townread the others? From my perspective, Fitz has a highish likelihood of being town and Fitz and I are pushed to save scum. I am reassessing Fitz though due to Bins recent play.

You and A50 are townreads from RC and other teammates. Further reasons can be found in 1710. Yeah Bins is playing around the Fitz wagon weird (assuming that's what you mean?) but it could be her trying to stay off a mislynch - why is it causing you to reassess Fitz?

Re: LLD force replacement: She said something like "this makes me want to blow my brains out".

Spoiler:

Do not make any post or start any thread that

abuses or harasses another user.

Also, can you tell RC when I said he was a cancer, I meant it in every sense of life? I think he's a shit human being too.

Not really a conversation I'm interested in continuing, but this would be my guess.

[Keychain]

You think I can be scum with LLD? *pouts*
time to re read
VOTE: Titus
atm

Absolutely
VOTE: Elena Fisher

A50 could have been a vig kill and the scum kill could have been blocked.

Leave Bins alone (aaaa gambits too early in the morning ;-;), Titus is still town forever, Elena is scum with LLD.

[Keychain]

I can not really keep up with this posting pace.
People who are voting Math, the gambit has no visible scum motivation to me and my currently-available team. Also, again, A50 may not have been a scum kill.


A partial argument for scum!Elena:

YOU WANT TO FUCKING POINT AT ME AND SAY "OH WHAT A GOOD PLAYER LET'S LYNCH HER FOR FEAR"

THEN SURE, LET'S FUCKING DO THIS.

GIVE ME BURDEN OF PROFICIENCY. LYNCH ELENA, SHE'S FUCKING SCUM. IF SHE'S NOT, I'LL EAT DEATH TOMORROW, NO PROBLEM.

YOU THINK I'M BUSSING? FUCKNIG CHOO CHOO ALL ABOARD MOTHER FUCKER LETS GO

LLD was informed. Why in the hell would she go this all out on someone she knew was flipping town? This is a bus and if Elena had been lynched first out of the two of them it probably would have worked out great. Elena would also very probably have been fine getting bussed. The entire interaction between LLD/Elena is incredibly fake.

[Keychain]

LLD/Elena scumteam REQUIRES that LLD claiming to not know who Elena is (MariaR) was faked. I recommend people read that interaction before we go down that route.

Yes. That's absolutely the sort of thing they would fake together - LLD also ignored Elena saying who she was... twice I think before she acknowledged it? From memory. That's kind of overacting, even.

Elena is known to ask her scum partners to bus her and that just looked like a pretty dramatic bus to me. If LLD and Elena rolled scum together would you expect anything less? These interactions are incredibly SvS.

I can't decide between Elena/Titus, but one of them is scum!

Can I convince you that Titus is town and Elena is scum with winky faces and hearts?

[Keychain]

The way I play this game got LLD lynched

Uhhh RC

vehemently

wants you to stop taking all the credit for the lynch after the "hubris" comment you made when he called her scum.

See I would really not be surprised if RC couldn't read LLD for shit and is coasting on hubris on this one.

Incidentally pretty much everything I've said this dayphase is from him, if people would prefer arguments from RadiantCowbells over Keychain.

Keychain, gimme an Elena Fisher scumpartner. Seems like a risky/low-info lynch to me.

She's the scum left adrift after the LLD lynch - that's not risky or low info. Plus it's Day 2. Priority is lynching scum, not lynching for info.

all players who clearly weren't smart enough to think it over between picking alignments.
Also as I said Gerry and Dunn pref scum and they would've taken it over me but you keep ignoring this fact

They may prefer it but you are better at it, so I've heard.

Also who said A50 was most likely to pick scum? RC says he really doesn't like it.

[Keychain]

Paraphrased lunchtime readslist from RC who is now super invested in winning this game

Probably town: {T-Bone, Bulba, Bins, Titus}
Aero maybe town
On the fence about Radja, he's scummy but it seems he'd be unlikely to be scum by team composition, possible
Dunker could be either depending on flips
Not sure on UCV
CDB possible scum
Math's defense of Elena is scummy and will end in his lynch if he doesn't cut it out, his pushing on T-Bone is really bad
Elena is still scum


Bins, if you're townreading me, please sheep me. Math, you're making things really bloody difficult for town and furthering scum wincon more than the town one. Titus he thinks you're being super misguided right now.

The lovely Raybells and I have rather incompatible playstyles... When I get home I'd like to talk to people more than shouting at them. Radja, Math, Titus, Dunkers primarily.

[Keychain]

Oh I think I missed chesskid in the readslist, he's also maybe scum, maybe less likely though based on team comp.

I still don't think Elena is scum, so Keychain, be the voice of this read...why?

Sorry the reason I'm essentially just channelling RC right now is because I haven't really been free since daystart to actually think. I'll be around later for actual thoughts and stuff.

For now: did you check my ISO? I don't like repeating things, it's just noise. The main damning factor is her interactions with LLD, I posted a quote in particular that suggests LLD knew Elena was scum. Some players seem to consider them clearing but they're kind of the opposite. My scumread of her independently had waned towards the end of the day, but with an LLD flip she's top priority lynch material again.

(also an apology to Fitz, who owned the slot when it was lynched, but LLD was the bulk of it <3)

@Keychain:

Gotta love RC's style of "everyone against me is scum". Does he think the scumteam is LLD/Elena/Math? Or does he think that I'm defending Elena because I know she's town already? And in that case, has he literally not read my defences of her? gerry townflip objectively makes Elena more likely town.
Literally the more RC is invested in this game the scummier your slot is. IDK what you're even doing. And his lack of a Dunker townread is bad in itself.

do you think the fact that he died in his game might have something to do with his sudden investment
gerry was less likely to take scum in his opinion, also that is of very little interest to me right now
See above - I'm in class right now ffs, I had a meeting at lunch, you'll get me when I get home and like I said, this hardline style is not exactly how I like to do things

VOTE: key
just incase

Let's chat when I get home <3

[Keychain]

@Keychain what caused RC's read flip flop?

Which read? The one on you?

Mathdino

I was the first one to say that. I voted him in my first post over it.

I would actually not prefer RC arguments tbh. His scumflip very slightly decreases the chance that you're town by team composition. Him strategising your game for you has obvious implications. I'm otherwise okay hearing his reads, but I'm really not okay with him deciding what you do. Ruins your readability.

And lol at how hurt his feelings were that I called him arrogant

Gimme thoughts on T-Bone.

T-Bone is talking quite a lot of sense now and I'm appreciating the way he's poking at your gambit, but I did think he was pretty scummy towards the end of the day.
I love his 2164 a lot though in a way that probably isn't AI, but I do think 2177 is a great post in a towny way.

Too much ego in a game sucks but he's definitely not the only one contributing to that.

Honestly my read on Keychain is almost 80% meta-based. On one hand she prefers town and RC/Fire/Postie are all more likely to go scum... but on the other hand RC being this suddenly invested in the game is really weird. It's like he's been masking her playstyle.

She's hard to read in isolation IMO. RC playing so much really doesn't help. Who in this tournament has Keychain experience?

You're still relying on a meta read from a brief background check, huh. Why am I so difficult to read apart from RC's contributions?

I've explained why it's really not weird today RC is suddenly micromanaging me but I can't get over how ridiculous this line of thought is after you going on about following the whole tournament. I have asked him to back off a wee bit though, I'm not enjoying having zero space to play.

I have limited experience with players in this tournament, and I'm feeling like we've had this conversation before. Titus's team would be best able to read me - Transcend is the most reliable at reading me, Katyusha has some experience with me, jjh was a scumbuddy. From other teams maybe Creature, northsidegal, Dunnstral. Nearly all of these players gave a read on me D1. I've played with others in the tournament, including players in this game, but not much.
Actually I know she's very busy, but could I request a direct read on me from North? I want to know her opinion.

@Keychain: Gotta love RC's style of "everyone against me is scum". Does he think the scumteam is LLD/Elena/Math?

Or does he think that I'm defending Elena because I know she's town already?

And in that case, has he literally not read my defences of her? gerry townflip objectively makes Elena more likely town.
Literally the more RC is invested in this game the scummier your slot is. IDK what you're even doing. And his lack of a Dunker townread is bad in itself.

Rerunning this one now that I'm actually here.
I don't post a lot. It's not hard to read everything I say. From the bolded, it appears you're just skipping my posts. I'm reading Elena as scum based on this game. gerry's town flip is an

incredibly

weak defense to the point of being ludicrous. Look at what's in front of you.

chesskid

I think wagon apathy day 1 is explained by 2 of the major wagons being on scum.

Thoughts?

You say wagon apathy but I didn't really feel apathy around them tbh - but why would two scum wagons cause apathy? Because scum assume they're losing a member and don't put up as much of a fight?

Elena

keychain what made you think I like to be bussed? That's incorrect

RC thoughts, I will see if he has any evidence. This was a continuation of something he said when reading you and LLD as SvS during D1 was that both of you are very good at your interactions with scumpartners - he said something about you getting bussed in a fairly high percentage of your scum games and still winning them because of this. But you know, 80% of statistics are made up on the spot

VOTE: key
just incase

I'm so keen to hear your reasons but they didn't make it into any of the three posts it took for you to vote me! What are they?

Also

Also the fact that Raybells swapped into Inventions and not here despite explicitly wanting to play a normal (from sign-ups) heavily implies Keychain is actually just town. Willing to consider counter-arguments but I think is sound.

Yo Elena, why doesn't Raybells just swap into this game if he wants to swap into a scumgame?

It's already been stated why

I think I missed this - point me?

[Keychain]

Okay more thoughts RC wants inthread (sorry I know I like just said I'd asked him to stop getting me to post things for him and I did but they're good points). I've expanded on them to some extent.

I locked LLD out of the lynchpool because lynching LLD would be a hassle that would potentially shut the game down due to her AtE (I wanted an invest on her more than a lynch), and because town LLD was too much of an asset to risk losing. For most of LLD's presence, my team was confused as fuck on how to read her, and mostly gave up on trying. Once fitz replaced in, all those reasons went out the window. You should be able to see the context; once we needed wagon consolidation and the wagons were me, Titus, and fitz, I hated the Titus wagon and started pushing fitz.

This is not good. What if there is no invest or it gets used elsewhere? LLD was not the only dangerous player in the game.
Letting someone cruise because you're scared of AtE is questionable. A scumteam of you/Elena/LLD talking it up and scum theatreing also makes plenty of sense.

@Bins

, regarding Titus because you deserve more of an explanation than you're getting so far: she may be playing kind of off but if she and Fitz were two scum wagons together she would know how it looks, she's good at that, and she would have joined the Fitz wagon. RC really doesn't think she's scum here.


Other points not really directed at anyone:
>He considers the wagon stagnation due to scum pushing each other and theatreing to gather towncred, and thinks this further points to Elena/LLD scum.

>There is the possibility that if scum were pushing a counterwagon, it was Mathdino if he's town. However more likely scum were worried about overcommitting to a defense and losing two members, and instead decided to get Elena as much towncred as possible.

>He's also made a point on players scumreading me, but that can wait until those players commit themselves I think I want to hear from Elena first.


Also a note (to myself mostly but also to anyone interested) is that it might be worth checking Dino's claims today about his and his team's LLD/Fitz reads such as the one above against what he said inthread, and reviewing Elena's LLD read as well. My memory's not good enough to know whether everything is lining up.

[Keychain]

Yeah. I can't get over the idea that any scum on your team would be heavily coached by RC from the get-go. I fall somewhat in the "accepts that he can't read RC and will policy lynch if he survives way too long" crowd.
I mean, your play has otherwise seemed pretty townish. NSG warned me about your scumgame earlier on though.
I don't follow what RC means about me following the whole tournament implying you're town. Is there some way you can rephrase that? From what Zach said, Zach is the most likely to take a town PM, while RC is the most likely to take a scum PM. That leaves 3 PMs unaccounted for, which very well could've gone to you.

I'm sure you've had to deal with unfamiliar players before. You don't need to read him. You need to read me.

I can rephrase and probably should, I think I wasn't as clear as I'd prefer. RC didn't say following the whole tournament implies I'm town.

I

said it means that using RC's contribution to scumread me is rubbish. He got lynched so of course his contribution is going to increase. It was also an argument used against Zach when he used RC's input. Those are both things you would have realised, I'd think.

[Keychain]

One sec guys. Chesskid is probably scum. Explanation coming at lunch if I can

UCV! I keep forgetting you're in this game. I'd like to hear reads.

General: Radja can be town again. That description of the events leading to the hammer is either genuine or was specifically crafted by his team for this.

Uhh looking at Radja's explanation, that could be genuine and also from scum, no need for crafting. Not sure how that led you to a townread.

i townread literally everyone except math

Dunker, do you think this might mean there's something up with your reads? Can you give a brief reason for why you're townreading everyone else?

[Keychain]

Apparently it was just like any game of mafia.

people all have towny points to their posts.
i'm guessing it's probably because everyone here is probably better at mafia than players im used to playing with so it's harder to find the "obvscum"

Can you get more specific?

Keychain and Elena are town

Specifics here would be good too.

[Keychain]

oh wait

i townread literally everyone except math

Dunkers if you townread everyone, it sounds like your reads are shot and you might need to reevaluate instead of using "but I townread everyone else" as an argument. What are the towny points for each other player that make you think they're not scum?

Chesskid

please explain Elena townread.

@Keychain, My meta hasn't shifted at all and you tunnelled me hard. Now, you're tunnelling again. What gives? Why is this different? Are you town scum or proud town?

I don't understand what you're asking. Meta is across games and we've barely played together. I'm using RC's read on you.

[Keychain]

Oh lol Elena's vote on me, that's still a thing I want to hear more about.

Probscum:

Elena

T-Bone

Okay I'll make a deal with you guys to get out of this rut.

VOTE: Aeronaut

Wagon the shit out of people until they start doing things that aren't stupid, or replace out.

Arbitrarily picking Aero as the first of four.

...
I have a better idea. Vote your scumread Elena.

locktown:
Dunkerdoodles

townread:
Keychain
Bins
Elena Fisher
T-Bone
Radja

townreadish:
Titus
Bulbazak

nulltown:
ChannelDelibird

null:
Aeronaut
chesskid3
UC Voyager

no idea:
Mathdino

basically where im at rn

This is something! Thank you. Can you give even a sentence for why each player is in the town and townish categories?

@keychain -
tell RC it’s a poutine for every correct read he gives so tell him to give constant input

okay. I really don't think he needs telling but it's noted.

[Keychain]

like, it feels manipulative and kinda defendy of bulba

Math is bending over backwards to avoid voting someone he ostensibly scumreads, it's freaking weird and the way he seized on the CDB scumcase on Bulba is almost as weird.

...
I have a better idea. Vote your scumread Elena.

Do the math. Even if I voted Elena and canvassed votes for her, it's literally impossible to get a lynch there.

Aeronaut, UCV, and CDB aren't here. Radja and Dunker have shit reads. 1 other person is townreading her, but I forget. Elena won't vote herself.

So what's RC's master plan to strongarm people into a lynch when half the game is essentially not present?

BACK TO THIS

skrew wants to point out how weird it is you picked aero

considering your fascination with UCV and CDB scumread

you pick AERO
when you have CDB as red on your readslisr??

My plan is literally to wagon people until they do something or replace out, then move on to the next one. Aero was the first one in chesskid's list and seems most likely out of that list to respond to pressure. CDB I could reasonably see picking up activity for real at some point. Aero is practically a lost cause as a player.

If UCV still had the ability to swap out with Creature, I would've wagoned there, but alas, we're stuck with his lurksack ass.

To those of you who seem to have a problem with where I'm voting:

What's YOUR plan for getting a lynch today?

If you have a problem with the mod not force replacing people not meeting activity requirements, PM him and Elli, I don't really consider that my problem. I want to lynch scum.

You complain about RC "masking" my playstyle and then ask what his master plan is? Ignore him. Deal with me, I'm the one playing this game. You say you think Elena is scum but she's not going to get lynched, so you instead jump on a Bulba case when he's even less likely to. It makes no sense.

I'm not going to drop my scumread to lynch a lurker I don't think is scum, when Elena's put a vote on me with no explanation and then dropped off the face of the planet. This is exactly the wrong moment to try and draw my attention elsewhere. Players change their minds and writing off a full two players as having "shit reads" is a terrible way to get a town together. Incidentally another terrible way to get a town together is you avoiding joining the wagon on one of your top scumreads and instead trying to relieve pressure on her by claiming she's not going to get lynched.

[Keychain]

@Math: Uh, okay.

I thought you were avoiding voting Elena because you didn't believe she would be lynched, but you had her in your probscum pair with T-Bone in your readslist not too long ago.
Now you've just switched it to not believing she's scum.

I'm uncomfortable with the growing wagon on her. It feels like she's today's Eddie/Transcend/Titus.

I'm uncomfortable with using an unflipped slot in this way. A hard townread is not the same as a flip.

Do the math. Even if I voted Elena and canvassed votes for her, it's literally impossible to get a lynch there.

Aeronaut, UCV, and CDB aren't here. Radja and Dunker have shit reads. 1 other person is townreading her, but I forget. Elena won't vote herself.

So what's RC's master plan to strongarm people into a lynch when half the game is essentially not present?

Explain to me how this is different for Bulba than it is for Elena. Making this argument then switching to Bulba is giving me whiplash. Also you never answered my question on why Radja's explanation for the hammer had to be from town or specifically team crafted.


@Dunker: I just realised in 2420 you put in reasons. You say that Radja made posts you don't think were faked. Which ones are those?

[Keychain]

@Bins: I absolutely agree. But remember that Elena's problem was similar to your/my problem in D1. Too many townreads, everyone's acting town, everyone has a similar lynchpool, every lynch option seems like low hanging fruit. So we went for LLD, the high-hanging fruit (and yes, it was high-hanging, contrary to the narrative some people are rewriting. LLD is and was not an easy lynch).

The Bulbacase solves the gamestate I think. I hope Elena will agree once she sees it.

Read over it. I factchecked the post links too. It's solid.

No lol, we didn't go for the "high hanging fruit", we just went for the slot we thought was scum despite how difficult it would be to lynch. That happens to be the same thing I'm doing here! Sounds like you may also be rewriting narratives, you're just doing it with fruit metaphors.

If you really REALLY want to know, it was just a gut "I doubt his team would come up with a long story on why Radja waited to hammer and finally lolhammered without a claim". Things get worse the more people lie. I could, for example, start pushing Radja to paraphrase the entire excerpt of his chat with Reck/Shea/Keely, and scum-Radja would be absolutely fucked.

I did really REALLY want to know, because your answer shows that you completely ignored what I said in the original question which is that his entire post can be seen from the perspective of scum almost better than that of town. You just repeated the same thing you said the first time. But sure, we can drop it. If you start defending him again over it we can discuss it again.

I'll check CDB's Bulbacase when I can, yes. But Elena is laying low and I'm not switching off her unless she herself gives me a reason to, instead of you trying your very hardest. It's good because every VC shows me she dropped a vote on me and left and so every VC reminds me I want to hear from her. If I've got energy later I'll do a proper case on her because this game needs to advance and getting a stronger wagon on her will help get things moving. This is part of why I don't understand what you're doing. Why aren't you voting her to see what happens, why are you trying to start a counterwagon by any means possible?


@Bins: is there any particular input you wanted from RC? We pretty much agree on reads and I'm trying to discourage him from straight telling me what to post because it kills my interest in playing myself. He does think this town is kind of crumbling though.



PEdit: ELENA! <3

[Keychain]

Elena why would you be voting me as town here

[Keychain]

Elena, you don't think you'd be capable of faking that interaction with LLD? Or you don't think she'd be capable of faking it on her end? Why would you be clear?

Elena why would you be voting me as town here

I was voting you (and still somewhat am) because I'm out of answers I don't know if you're just super confident in your scumread on me but part of me wants to say you're not trying to sort me and your read is just there for the sake of it. But honestly taking a step back I think I was biased (maybe a little salty too) I don't get why you added the "as town" part here. I also didn't like the "Bins if you tr me you should be sheeping me part" do you believe people should sheep there trs?

No, but if Bins is townreading me, she is townreading RC, who is very sheepable.

I added "as town" because I'm looking for you to convince me that you are town who made that vote. I am pretty confident in my scumread on you, and the fact that it's difficult to get traction on you is another plus, but I fail to see how you saw my interaction with LLD and came away from that thinking I'm scum. It just looks like you were trying to prompt a wagon on me after all there was interest indicated end of D1 but nobody was willing to make the first vote.



Ahh also Math, what chance do you think there was that Smocaine took a scum role?

[Keychain]

Yeah probably. You don't think scum would be trying to get you lynched here?

This isn't a 3 scum game. What you see as difficulty in getting traction, I see as "oh huh looks like the scum designated this as the mislynch, but town is too inactive to jump on board". If difficulty in getting people on the wagon is a scumtell for the wagon, the one buddy is off, right?

What's your shortlist for Elena partners? I assume I'm one.

Ahh also Math, what chance do you think there was that Smocaine took a scum role?

Almost none.

We think it's very possible he did. I don't really like looking for partners before flip but my other primary guesses for scum right now would be you and chesskid I think.

You think scum designated

Elena

as the mislynch? In that case, that would make at least one of Bins/myself very sure scum to you, since we are the ones pushing this. Elena would be a terrible designated mislynch though with many juicier options on the table, so this argument is very weak.

I believe you also didn't say why you're trying to launch a counterwagon to Elena (in an inactive town, as you continually mention) instead of voting her. Elena is apparently no longer a scumread but you've said you're not opposed to voting outside of your scumreads. Strengthening an existing wagon to see who jumps and who stalls would be a great thing, why are you opposed to it?

You and Keychain are confbiasing against each other because you think the other one shouldn't be voting you.

Uh, no thanks. The vote-and-leave was just bad, Elena is still scum for interactions with LLD.

I will read CDB's case on Bulba and write a more detailed case on Elena tomorrow, since there's a whole bunch of people who aren't you that I could be talking to

Elena, you don't think you'd be capable of faking that interaction with LLD? Or you don't think she'd be capable of faking it on her end? Why would you be clear?

I think I could fake it I'm very good at faking interactions at least on my end. I don't think LLD could fake it though. I don't see how people thought LLDS play around me was scumvscum I felt like it spewed me as town.

It looked overacted to me.


@Dunkers: thanks for the Radja posts. I did think Bins was playing very weird around Fitz at the end of the day, but I'm really not going to lynch her today. I will add fact checking your case to my todo list.

[Keychain]

No, but if Bins is townreading me, she is townreading RC, who is very sheepable.

when did RC start reading this game and helping you out Keychain? It was quite a few RL days into things right?

Can't remember exactly when, but yeah it was into D1.

9)2222 Keychain please towncase TBone. This is a request from our whole team.

Those were RC's reads at the time so I asked him for an explanation - there's not much, just his interactions D1 with Bins, Elena and Math give RC towny feelings. Certainly not locktown. I'm iffy on him myself so I can't towncase him, sorry.

Keychain never flips scum here. He is obvtown.

I have Key as scum though sooo...We will need to talk. The garbage meta read from RC trying to save LLD fits with my VCA theory.

If you think I was trying to save LLD/Fitz D1, you need to take another look at posts such as 1885 where I told you Fitz was the only lynch I was happy with out of the options, while you were trying to say your gamestate analysis/VCA/whatevs was telling you he was town. I didn't even vote you following RC's stated scumread on you. Listen to your team, they're smart cookies.

We want a Bins towncase.

Apart from the giggle case? Do you disagree that her play and drive D2 has been very town?

Okay, tell you what

If I can't get my own preferred lynches, and help you lynch Elena, and she flips town, do you guys agree to lynch Bulbazak?

On the other hand, if Elena flips scum, I'll accept my own lynch on the condition that you guys lynch CDB right after (for casing someone to derail the Elena wagon).

How about you help us lynch her and then depending on her flip we determine the next lynch based on a majority vote system?

I don't make these deals but I will absolutely talk with you about it afterwards!

No, people piled on Titus to end the day, and I was like "NO FUCK THIS" and pushed through a counterwagon.

Dear. Lord.
I don't think you realise how unpleasant your ego is to read. Give some credit to the rest of the town for god's sake, you did not singlehandedly lynch the LLD/Fitz slot.

Elena's play with LLD is super scummy and her own REACTION to how she perceives her play with LLD as being "obvtown" is super super scummy.


You know my reads, I really don't have to repeat myself here. Elena should 100% be the lynch.

I agree strongly with this.

[Keychain]

Titus we seem to working at crosspurposes here, it's becoming a hassle.

@Keychain

Can you please have RC clarify why he thought TBone was town and why we shouldn't turbo lynch him for trying to shout my mislynch as he argued that he knew me the best?

I gave the reasons he provided for T-Bone.

You would not be turbo lynching him, you would be turbo lynching me. Consult with your team because uh yeah nah. This push on me is weak and suggests you haven't really read the game.


Welcome xyzzy!

[Keychain]

Regarding the scumflip we have, has anyone gone through their ISOs to see if they can find a partner? In particular Fitz's catchup could be useful.

bulbazak, bins, CDB, t-bone, keychain, you're fooling yourself if you don't think they can, after years of playing mafia, replicate a town style of posting and get townread as scum.

Don't include me in that group lol, my join date should read 2017. I played one newbie game in 2015 and then didn't come back to the site until halfway through last year.

You still are dodging. I am asking why we shouldn't lynch your slot for RC's falsehoods about me draped in meta that you relayed.

You talked to your team, right?
I have repeatedly answered your question. Math has also answered your question.
You should not lynch me because you are basing this scumread on a very short period in the game that you are apparently even misremembering based on 2573.

[Keychain]

Okay, I read CDB's Bulbazak case, and did not do very much more investigation than the provided links because it's after midnight but I promised I'd do this tonight and Math's ringing endorsement (ten minutes after it was posted this took me like an hour) is interesting.

Let me tell you why I'm dropping this:

VOTE: Bulbazak

---

Bulbazak's stance on the LLD/fitz slot Day 1 was pretty weak. He almost doesn't comment on the slot at all early on but one infers him treating her as town due to citing her lines of investigation and asking Smocaine, someone he's publicly calling town as of that same post, to explain a vote on LLD. Meanwhile, many of his mentions of the slot involve him discrediting votes there.

• Pokes holes at a theory for LLD's scumplay that fits her actions.
  
• Asks fitz to explain his Bulbazak townread, which is a real lowball of a question at best.
  
• Repeatedly pursues this notion of waiting on a line of inquiry until they can both be online at the same time (which allows time, either in the build-up or during the eventual conversation, for whatever this is to be planned out in daytalk).
  
• This need to chat dissipates before it comes to fruition. Saves a forced interaction which would presumably be subject to higher scrutiny given that they were trying to set it up ahead of time.
  
• Undermines the Fitz/Titus choice in his responses to Dino here.
  
• Continues to object to the informational value of a Fitz lynch.

Though Bulbazak eventually voted for Fitz, there was never any enthusiasm there, and it absolutely seems like he'd have taken another lynch if one had been offered that he felt safe in choosing.

Compare Bulbazak's treatment of the LLD slot to how he describes the slot Today: "Given the AtE, LLD looked like scum who was not in control" and likely to be considered "a lost cause" by scumbuddies early on. That doesn't jive with his 'talk me into it' approach to the slot for much of Day 1.

Look at how much Bulbazak focused on Almost50, a read primarily driven by what Bulbazak saw as AtE. (Examples include this, this and this but are also just a fair chunk of Bulbazak's Day 1 proactivity.)

Now let's compare that behaviour to how Bulbazak responded to AtE from LLD. It's much more mealy-mouthed and noncommittal; just a matter of 'I'm doubting my townread now', which would certainly jive with his stated position Today that LLD's scumbuddies would feel that she were very vulnerable. By his own words, we know that scum!Bulbazak would feel obliged to suspect LLD after that behaviour - but of course it's never as easy as just throwing a player like LLD to the wolves, especially when you've already been townreading her early on. She's an advantage, even under suspicion, that scum wouldn't want to freely give up. So you end up with this fence-sitting and subtle shooting down of the wagon without ever being seen as too much against it.

It also seems like mastina should be well aware of the likelihood that LLD would pick scum, and again that is addressed in the most fence-sitting way possible here.

---

tl;dr

- Bulbazak looks like a buddy who didn't know how to treat the LLD slot once she made what he now says were disastrous, would-be-jettisoned-by-scumbuddies mistakes so instead did a lot of hemming and hawwing and objecting until finally feeling forced to lynch fitz.

(response is address to CDB)

It starts off with a faulty premise. I read those first two posts where you inferred a Fitz townread on LLD, but they don't seem that way to me. The first post, 179, assumes Elena-scum/LLD-town because he's looking at that possibility, and citing someone's line of investigation doesn't mean you're townreading them. It means they made a good point that you agree with, and players vary on whether that will result in a townread. Secondly, asking Smocaine to explain his vote in 318 doesn't seem to me like it had anything to do with LLD and more to do with Smocaine's content as of that point in the game being essentially nil beyond that one vote as seen in his ISO. I also don't think he's calling Smocaine town in this post and I'm not sure why you do. If you're referring to the line:

To anyone on a wagon with Smocaine: Think really hard about that, because that's not someplace you want to be.

I think this is more of a snide remark regarding Smocaine's scumhunting skills (ie. don't be on a wagon

with

Smocaine cuz he likes to vote town etc etc) which I think due to a postgame comment from Mod is Mafia. The sentiment was reinforced in 557.
From ctrl+F it does seem like Bulba had a serious lack of mentions of LLD though which I would agree is indicative of scum partners.

Reading 332, which was described as "poking holes at a theory", I see a sensible question because assuming someone was trying to drive a wedge between players as a strategy does deserve poking and should not be just let to slide. I don't understand why 340 has then been cited as cementing CDB's understanding here, considering it's just further explaining 332. Bulba is using his own experience as scum to inform this read. This might be a bad idea, but it does not make him scum.

1727 being a lowball question - fair, I suppose, but it seems very like cherrypicking to take one bad question as if town don't ask bad questions, and I don't think Bulba would be playing kid gloves inthread if he was worried about Fitz getting lynched (considering it would put him at risk if the lynch went through) versus working together in their scumchat. I'm assuming that's what you mean, that the lowball question was to try and help a scum partner? You are right in that "why do you townread me" is a very easy question for scumbuddies to ask each other to reinforce their towniness though.

• Repeatedly pursues this notion of waiting on a line of inquiry until they can both be online at the same time (which allows time, either in the build-up or during the eventual conversation, for whatever this is to be planned out in daytalk).
  
• This need to chat dissipates before it comes to fruition. Saves a forced interaction which would presumably be subject to higher scrutiny given that they were trying to set it up ahead of time.

I don't understand why you think scum partners would publicly plan out a time for live interaction, which as you note other players would have paid close attention to, if they never planned to carry it through. If they wanted the live interaction to try and save Fitz, they would have planned it in daytalk and had it happen "spontaneously", not made it public and made the failure to carry it through public as well.

Unsure what "Undermines the Fitz/Titus choice in his responses to Dino here." means. I read the post and see two relevant parts wrt Fitz and Titus. One is trying to establish how Mathdino could have a growing scumread on a player voting the slot Math was trying so hard to lynch, which I would consider a good question. He also directly contradicted a false point Math had made regarding the Titus wagon, which doesn't seem scum motivated to me.

Regarding objecting to the informational value of the Fitz lynch, you're right in that 2006 does look kind of like scum protesting the lynch of their buddy in a kind of red tape manner (what's the thing where you set up unnecessary obstacles?), but 2008 does not really do that. He disagrees with it implicating Bins then enquires more into how it implicates Elena. He doesn't dismiss it out of hand and it looks like he was genuinely seeking more information.


That brings me to the end of the bulleted list. The rest contains fewer links so it's more difficult for me to check against, but it seems more relevant than the bullet points that I covered here so I will probably look at it eventually. Not tonight though.

In summary, I see a couple of good points, but most of them I disagree with when checking them against the source quotes and in no way to I find the points that I do agree with to be compelling enough to vote Bulba, considering reading some of his posts while writing this actually reinforced my townread in ways I mostly described above. I do really appreciate the way CDB made it clean, concise and easy to read and reference. There are several points that I don't quite understand though and I'd like to get those cleared up.

And while I'm sure Mathdino has a bazillion things to say in response to this, I would like to hear from CDB most of all and to some extent other players who have been more on the sidelines.

[Keychain]

I'm overwhelmingly busy rn but RC would like me to reiterate that while Titus might be uhh playing in a different reality, he still believes she is town based on his knowledge of and experience with her. Bins also very town (insert disparaging comments about people still scumreading Bins here), T-Bone's recent posting also renews townread there (I asked and it is v strong but inexplicable gut), Bulba maybe scum possibly? (I'm not really into voting there today atm) but Elena absolutely still needs lynched today.

I saw some stuff I want to respond to when I have time

[Keychain]

That argument with Titus was nasty to read. Well Radja's 2780/2781 case on Titus was kind of fun and I appreciate the 2 hours spent on it but I still believe Titus is town. Good points made by T-Bone and Math immediately after. Chesskid making snippy comments from what essentially looked like the sidelines seems to be buddying Titus, who if town is pretty buddyable right now considering few players are siding with her.

And while I'm sure Mathdino has a bazillion things to say in response to this, I would like to hear from CDB most of all and to some extent other players who have been more on the sidelines.

I don't. Thanks for responding. If CDB doesn't respond to it in his next few posts I'll spam your response at him .

Just one thing: in short, I think a lot of the things you think scumbuddies wouldn't do in-thread are things Bulbazak is capable and even outright willing to do as scum. The cases against Elena require similar theatrics on the part of the scumteam. Bulbazak is just more charismatic than Elena.

Anyway back to the shitshow

Yeah lol I was worried I somehow hadn't managed to post my response given what happened immediately after. Thanks for 2813. To your point - possible, I suppose, but it's still not enough to make me prefer a lynch there over someone else.

I don't like the whole "lynch CDB" thing. I need to double check, but I'm pretty sure he's conf. town.

This is news to me, what's this about?

Wait...what? You just got done talking about how Fitz townreads his buddies, but when it comes to an auto townread on someone he's never played with before, you just go "Yeah, seems legit."?

To clarify, he said he hasn't played with

town

-me.

I feel more confident about the people at either end of this list.

town
Bins
CDB
Keychain
Dunkerdoodles
chesskid3
UC Voyager
Elena
Radja
Mathdino
Titus
Bulbazak
T-Bone
not town

VOTE: Bulbazak

CDB is very high up! What caused that townread?

[Keychain]

Chesskid making snippy comments from what essentially looked like the sidelines seems to be buddying Titus, who if town is pretty buddyable right now considering few players are siding with her.

pls show me ur notes

I'm looking at what happened on like page 106 onwards. I didn't make any notes on you, that was just the impression I got.
Titus votes Radja in 2659. You follow in 2663. Your ISO from that point avoids the main argument that was happening, and instead just tries to capitalise on her Radja vote. This is what I mean by the sidelines. I suppose you could do this as town considering it's consistent with your four scumreads in 2376, but the way you went at it seemed to time too well with Titus essentially arguing on her own versus Radja and T-Bone. That's what I mean by it being buddying.


Oh also welcome Archwing!

[Keychain]

I see nothing from Elena that makes me not want to lynch her. Two more votes.

1. I still don't see how that makes my slot conftown? Like how do I know scum!dino isn t trying to pocket the newcomer in a 100+ page game?

I can attest to the fact that Mathdino was squeezing UCV for Creature's reads as a way of sorting the slot, and the way he's reacting here in 2949 lines up with how I'd have expected him to react if UCV had posted that (and I think at a couple of points he actually did to some extent - I'll have a look). I don't see pocketing.

Math's summary - it obviously has bias which you can see mostly in the points regarding Math himself, but it otherwise seems fairly neutral. Though tbh I can't remember the events of the game in that much detail so who knows. The only thing I saw that I disagree with is chesskid being a "near universal townread", I wouldn't really go that far, but it's not really an important point.


(also VC 2.02 in 2307 has a JPG not a GIF and it's been bothering me for a while)

[Keychain]

Titus, I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make here. Also you think I'm the only scum on the Elena wagon?

Huh. Might vote Elena now (and I feel bad about that).

What would convince you to actually vote?

Huh. Might vote Elena now (and I feel bad about that).

Could try chesskid or Titus or....sigh Radja

Radja is a good wagon tbh I am prod dodging unyil we get an acceotable wagon anyway

...
Titus is the only other wagon I’m interested in.

Hard no from me on wagoning Titus!


Sorry you're sick, Elena If we lynch you and you flip town, I'll make sure to go through your reads and follow up, but I do think you're scum.

[Keychain]

Sorry I should be clearer. I don't understand 3023. Elena has plenty of chance to be scum, that's why I'm voting her. You seem to be recasting it as being entirely for information.

Your mathematical probability told you Fitz was town. Why is this different?

[Keychain]

I would much prefer you gave them yourself Bulba.

Sorry I should be clearer. I don't understand 3023. Elena has plenty of chance to be scum, that's why I'm voting her. You seem to be recasting it as being entirely for information.

Your mathematical probability told you Fitz was town. Why is this different?

3023 is commenting on Bins Elena vote.

I have more information, thus my likelihood of accuracy goes up.

Bins has also argued for Elena's lynch based on her being scum. Pretty much all D2. The informational aspect just appears to be why she's preferring Elena over you, judging by 3022 immediately before your post.

The slots we should lynch are the ones LLD avoided or that avoided LLD wagon.

I don't think LLD would avoid her partners as scum. I haven't played with her, but that's the impression I get from talking with teammates.


Can people not voting Elena (who aren't Titus) explain again to me why? She's still my top choice, since RC's townread on Titus pretty much rules her out for me.

[Keychain]

If I had my way pressure xyzzy and bulba those are my top 2 sr's atm Keychain for 3rd
I don't see a world where bins is scum ever Channel could be scum but if he is it isn't with bulba
Dunker is town too this is way out of his wolf range
I feel like Radja's emotion is genuine and comes from town half the time
I want to tr T-bone but Chara gets gut scumpings from them
Keep an eye on arch and Chess don't let them go into the backround

alright hammer away

Thank you! Noted.

hey, here's some information for you all: Gamma Emerald from my team PT believes that Bins and Titus are scum together

interesting perspective

[Keychain]

Dunkers please revote. She's very probably scum.

vote:Radja

I think I see where you're coming from but I'd still 100% prefer Elena today. Please vote with me.

[Keychain]

I don't prefer Elena though.

Hmm, true. Why? You said you were leaning that way, and like xyzzy said we're so close to deadline.

I'm also getting told rather forcefully by RC that this reaction from her is scum through and through and to push it hard.

Or more accurately

Elena is scum don't let her walk.

I will definitely talk with you about Radja afterwards!

[Keychain]

He believes she is scum, yes. Push what? If you're talking about pushing the fact that her recent reaction is scummy, the answer is that I'm playing this game, not him.

[Keychain]

Final D1 VC:

Votecount 1.Final

T-Bone (2)

Titus , chesskid3 ,

Titus (3)

T-Bone , Aeronaut , Bins ,

havingfitz (8)

Keychain , ChannelDelibird , Mathdino , Almost50 , UC Voyager , Elena Fisher , Bulbazak , Radja , L-0

Mathdino (2)

Dunkerdoodles , havingfitz ,

Day one deadline is Sunday February 4, 9 PM PST. (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch!

[/size]

Current VC:

Votecount 2.13

Bulbazak (1)Elena Fisher ,
chesskid3 (1)Radja ,
Radja (3)Titus , chesskid3 , T-Bone ,
Elena Fisher (6)

Keychain , Bulbazak , ChannelDelibird , Bins , xyzzy , Dunkerdoodles , L-1

Not Voting (1)Archwing ,

Day two deadline is Wednesday February 21, 12 AM PST. (expired on 2018-02-21 00:00:00).

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

[/size]

Nobody voting Radja as of this votecount (Titus, chesskid, T-Bone) was voting Fitz at lynch. Not exactly good company there.

[Keychain]

Six hours. Someone please hammer.

Honestly, the presence of xyzzy on the Elena wagon should concern you way more than the presence of Titus and Chesskid should concern me. xyzzy just entered the game, hasn't produced much in the way of reads, and yet jumped on the Elena wagon. Sure, you could call it a "compromise vote"...but...there was the Bulba wagon he could have remained on, the Titus wagon he could have jumpstarted, and the Radja wagon, all of whom he had further down his scum list than Elena.

In short, no, I am not concerned by this unholy alliance I've suddenly formed with players I have spent most of the day phase calling scum. Not against voting a player I believe to be town, and a player I believe the scum case to be incredibly weak against.

Regarding xyzzy - one weak vote is not worth leaving an otherwise strong wagon. I'm not really addressing you with the observation of the existing Radja wagon, I'm pointing out to anyone else considering listening to this:

I JUST NEED

FOUR HEROS

FOUR BOLD HEROES

WILLING TO STAND UP WITH ONE VOICE AND PROCLAIM

VOTE: RADJA

that

zero

of the existing "heroes" were on the scum wagon at lynch yesterday. Versus the Elena wagon, which has a heck of a lot of overlap. Me, CDB, Bulba (and Mathdino before he died, who as you've been mentioned is confirmed town). If you're into wagon comp, the Elena wagon is much better in light of the Fitz lynch.

@Keychain, If you remove all the slots early voting or conflict Fitz/LLD, you get a pool similar to mine.

Yes that's kind of why I disagree with your pool. I don't think slots that had conflict or early voting with scum should be ruled out. Especially with LLD.

[Keychain]

We have four hours. Elena has claimed VT. Radja has not claimed.

flashwagon gogogo
VOTE: bins

... no thanks can you put your vote back on Elena pretty please

leaning on wagon comp seems bad

I prefer to fucko the scumo

I like lynching scum too! You seem to be more intent on stalling us out to deadline and potential no lynch.

@Archwing

: Your presence on the Elena wagon would be appreciated ASAP.

@Radja:

We have four hours and I don't think chesskid lynch is going to happen today. Your options are considerably more like no lynch/Radja lynch/Elena lynch. Can you vote Elena please?

[Keychain]

If they want to lynch a player with the weakest justification I've ever seen because "lol wagon comp" I am powerless to stop it.

I don't really use wagon comp, but when I'm trying to convince other people to join me it's worth pointing out. She is scum for interactions with LLD and her own actions, as she has been all day.

[Keychain]

Well that's it for me
thanks for the game it really was a treat ^_^

Likewise! If you're town I apologise <3 but gotta lynch those scumreads

[Keychain]

I'm going to find time to reset and read through this game again.

I want Keychain to give input, especially on that Titus townread from RC.

I have received no update on RC's Titus read changing, and her interaction with me D2 felt town to me but I'm not solid on anything anymore! so that's fun. I'll have better input once I've reread, which will probably happen tomorrow.

keychain, creature would like to know how you feel about chesskid?

Say hi to Creature for me if he's not actually reading this game and you're just faking these thoughts from him. Not sure why he'd ask this question.
Wasn't a fan of the "lynch all these lurkers" post in 2376, but being a major proponent of the counterwagon to Elena gives him some pretty strong town points.

[Keychain]

I didn't read that's okay, can play in the meantime.

Postie has a townread on CDB partially based on an offhand sympathetic comment to LLD that she thought would have been made in daytalk to a partner instead of inthread (though I think it could probably have been faked) and also the way he gathered his thoughts by engaging several players before placing his vote.
She's also sort of leaning town on Archwing based on posts from them and UCV explaining Creature's reads seeming genuine.

If I had my way pressure xyzzy and bulba those are my top 2 sr's atm Keychain for 3rd
I don't see a world where bins is scum ever Channel could be scum but if he is it isn't with bulba
Dunker is town too this is way out of his wolf range
I feel like Radja's emotion is genuine and comes from town half the time
I want to tr T-bone but Chara gets gut scumpings from them
Keep an eye on arch and Chess don't let them go into the backround

alright hammer away

Just bringing this forward so I don't forget it.

@xyzzy:

where are your reads at on Bins and Bulba?

[Keychain]

@xyzzy:

@xyzzy:

where are your reads at on Bins and Bulba?

I would still like an answer. You had Bins as top town in 2852 but paired with Titus in that random Gamma read in 3080 where you gave no indication whether you disagreed with him scumreading someone who was apparently your top townread. You had Bulba at the bottom (since T-Bone is dead and confirmed town) in 2852 but you're not voting there now. It seems a lot like you're not pushing there because the support has largely died, which doesn't make a lot of sense from town early in the day after a mislynch.
Like I'm not really following your reads at all. Help me out please.

@keychain, can you give me a 3-player lynch pool?

Hmm.
Right now I'd say xyzzy/Radja/you, but I'm not confident in that right now. Can't decide if Mina and/or Bulba should be in there somewhere.

Hi, everyone! I literally hate Mafia and haven't played it in two years and I literally hate it. I'm replacing into a 130-page game to bash my head against a wall until my skull is a bloody pulp as performance art for you all.

Ummm well welcome! Bye, CBD.

[Keychain]

VOTE: xyzzy

[Keychain]

Prodding Keychain

Prod received. Sorry about that.

Oh, another I-haven't-been reading question: has the number of scum in this game been confirmed anywhere? I see Transcend/Titus talking as though there are confirmed 3 scum out of 15 and Radja (iirc?) as though there are four. I would have thought 4/15 was standard, since it used to be three Mafia for 12-13.

*goes back to reading*

Never mind, Fenchurch pointed me to the announcements thread.

You can just ignore that post when it comes to reading my alignment for now, because I never would have made that mistake years ago. >.<

Oh, another I-haven't-been reading question: has the number of scum in this game been confirmed anywhere? I see Transcend/Titus talking as though there are confirmed 3 scum out of 15 and Radja (iirc?) as though there are four. I would have thought 4/15 was standard, since it used to be three Mafia for 12-13.

*goes back to reading*

Hi Mina!

So nice to play mafia with you you hate it and I'm not enjoying it much either.
Anyway: I don't think I've suggested a 4-man team, tbh I've had my mind set on this being a three man team because of this being a normal game. idk. not really a regular mafia player either

I can't believe how Radja made this post after Mina's followup to her own post. I probably shouldn't read into it too much considering it's completely bizarre as either alignment at this point in the whole event.

@xyzzy:

@xyzzy:

where are your reads at on Bins and Bulba?

I would still like an answer. You had Bins as top town in 2852 but paired with Titus in that random Gamma read in 3080 where you gave no indication whether you disagreed with him scumreading someone who was apparently your top townread. You had Bulba at the bottom (since T-Bone is dead and confirmed town) in 2852 but you're not voting there now. It seems a lot like you're not pushing there because the support has largely died, which doesn't make a lot of sense from town early in the day after a mislynch.
Like I'm not really following your reads at all. Help me out please.

@keychain, can you give me a 3-player lynch pool?

Hmm.
Right now I'd say xyzzy/Radja/you, but I'm not confident in that right now. Can't decide if Mina and/or Bulba should be in there somewhere.

Hi, everyone! I literally hate Mafia and haven't played it in two years and I literally hate it. I'm replacing into a 130-page game to bash my head against a wall until my skull is a bloody pulp as performance art for you all.

Ummm well welcome! Bye, CBD.

hey sorry for taking a couple days to get back to you on this -- I had to replace my laptop's power cable and only had phone internet access for a bit

anyway my thoughts on both Bins and Bulbazak are basically the same as before -- with the thing from Gamma Emerald, I don't agree with scumreading Bins, but to me it seems valuable to share thoughts from my teammates regardless of whether I agree with them or not. as for Bulbazak, I don't see voting for my second highest scum read instead of my absolute highest as contradictory, because 1)they could very well both be scum and 2)votes are resources, and I feel like the most productive use of my vote is where it is.

I was hounding you because you posted something but no response to me
You realise you're the only one voting Titus? You have made zero effort to get anyone to join that wagon, so good work on using that resource of yours productively I guess. You used the same excuse D2 to not vote T-Bone despite him being your top scumread.

In a direct question:

why

is voting Titus (from early to midDay) more productive than voting Bulba? You just say here that you "feel" like it is, which is too vague.

@Archwing

: why do you have such a strong seeming townread on Bulba? We can't find an origin, especially after quoting the Math post that says he shouldn't live to LyLo.

[Keychain]

I'd put the townbloc as me, bulba, dunker, and maybe bins. poe the rest.

This suggests a very strong townread, not just a "not interested in lynching".
Super hard trusting sounds pretty serious, and if someone whose reads I super hard trusted had said "don't let this player live to LyLo", I wouldn't typically turn around and put them in a townbloc.


chesskid, please don't be a prick to my teammate or anyone else.

[Keychain]

Happy birthday Bulbazak.

meh. tbf I think you're reading into it a bit much, but I'll still respond even though I can already tell you're going to be unsatisfied with my answer.

I stand by the team I put in the townblock. but as the game evolves, that changes. Do I want bulba to continue with us tomorrow? yep. Should bulba die before lylo? probably, if we follow what math said.
if you've made a decent-sized townblock, someone in there will surely have to go before lylo, or you've fucked up your townblock hard. like, if all that is remaining in the game is the townblock, you're already at a disadv.

basically i'm comfortable with bulbs slot right now. that can, and is allowed to, change.

the response is appreciated.
This could be me misunderstanding what you mean by townblock. I thought the point was generally that you didn't lynch the players in them. idk.

still prefer to lynch xyzzy today. though if someone wants to sell me on another option that isn't Bins/Titus/Dunkers, I'm open.

[Keychain]

You’re all beautiful people.

<3 welcome DeasVail!


Going to take me a wee bit to regain enthusiasm for this game so my apologies, but still happy with my xyzzy vote right now. I'll try to get back into it soon.

[Keychain]

Keychain, could you please give a quick tl;dr of why you think xyzzy is scum? From a very quick glance at your ISO, I could not find anything obvious.

They are voting opportunistically (see jump on Elena wagon end of D2 pointed out by T-Bone in 3122 and choosing to vote Titus over their top scumread Bulbazak today for no apparent reason).

I asked questions about their reads and votes (regarding CBD townread at the end of 2885 and unexplained choice of Titus over Bulba in 3488) and they've avoided them. It's enough to be a pattern. I also had to reask after they ignored 3283 (I waited until they posted to make sure it wasn't just activity related before following up). Sometimes townies don't answer questions because they don't want to, but town that don't like answering questions tend to give me sharper responses when I pressure for an answer than what I got from xyzzy in 3413.

Overall they're playing low profile and their reads don't seem genuine to me.

[Keychain]

What are your reads on xyzzy and Bulbazak, including reasons please.

I've seen the explanation for your scumread on Bins. Can you go into your scumreads on Radja and chess/DV?

[Keychain]

Hi xyzzy! I suppose the fact that I am always posting from a phone means I don't have a lot of sympathy for the "but I was phoneposting" argument. And it seemed to me that only covered the one instance, not the others like the CBD question or the most recent one.

You still haven't explained why you thought Titus was the best vote

at the start of the day

(versus the totally fine compromise on a lesser scumread with a stronger wagon towards end of day), and a good place to votepark. I would have expected you to take the start of the day and push your top scumread more, but you didn't, and I didn't see a lot of reasoning behind why Titus would be a better place to put your vote. This:

also I already said this but voting for the person I scum read second most is not a bad thing

doesn't really explain. At all. No it's not bad, but not having a thought process behind it is.

What are your reads on xyzzy and Bulbazak, including reasons please.

I've seen the explanation for your scumread on Bins. Can you go into your scumreads on Radja and chess/DV?

my gut instinct on xyzzy is probably a scumlean, i don't particularly like his iso, his tone is ok but not great
on the other hand, bulba is town, his tone is solid, i like his posts.

chess and radja are more scumleans, radja was town for me earlier, chess is just hard to read but on the scummy side.

sorry im not the best at giving reasoning

I'm surprised you went from too many townreads to a whole bunch of scumleans, how did that happen? Also yeah xyzzy isn't a he.

[Keychain]

I thought sheep wasn't in TM anymore?

The fact that most of the active voices seem to be okay with lynching xyzzy is kind of odd to me.

I think I'm going to have to get Postie or someone to help me read DV/Mina. DV in particular is scarily nice in a way that makes it difficult for me to read him.

[Keychain]

I'm getting cold feet on xyzzy. Like unless they're scum with DeasVail or something, I guess? I don't know that the way they're not really bothered by their slowly approaching lynch comes from scum down one member. Sometimes scum doesn't have the motivation to fight though, but the way the lynch has settled seems weird to me.

@Titus

, I think you have a better grip on this kind of analysis - does the way the wagon has formed on xyzzy make sense as being on scum?

Bins, Dunkerdoodles
Mina, Archwing, DeasVail
Radja, Bulbazak, xyzzy

But several people have stated their belief in Radja being solid town, so I'll not push that. When I try and place Bulba relative to other players, he always seems more scummy but I can't really think of any concrete reasons why.

If Bins has been pocketing me (and RC) I'm going to be very annoyed.

[Keychain]

Keychain, summary on why RC thinks Bins is town?

RC is no longer in TM after his ban so can't give further thoughts, but his initial townread on her was gut.

The read still stood after D2, she showed a heck of a lot of energy through that day and he found it very town-motivated.

rn i have me, arch, mina and keychain as locktown

anyone dispute these?

Not sure on Mina. I'm more convinced on town!Arch now and I'd rather lynch xyz than switch there.

Are any of your teammates following this game?

[Keychain]

why isn’t keychain dying
keychain why aren’t u dying

because scum have no hearts and refuse to have mercy on me ;-;
or because my reads are shit.

Reads from the three NKed players

A50

:

Spoiler: Relevant quotes

A50, am I on a shitty train of thought with Bins/LLD/Radja idea?

Nope. So far it still makes perfect sense for the trio to be scum together, and I didn't want to affect your reads before, but I'm glad you came around on Elena.

Other than your 3, I'm not sure about CDB, Aeronaut, T-bone & CK (but T-bone & CK are like last resorts. Like, if we mislynch and then get a clear on another one of the main suspects.. maybe then).

Oh, and Dunker. I'm not 100% on him either. I know he can do better than this, but I don't explicitly SR him either.

My strongest SR remains Bins though, and she's not even trying. Like, I would expect Town!Bins to be overly noisy, and especially while we are waiting for Titus/Fitz to catch up, so we have all the time for her to Town!case herself or show some genuine Scumhunting, but she seems to have basically given up.

After careful consideration, Bins is unlikely to be Scum in this game. Still possible, but unlikely.

@Math: If Titus ain't scum HERE, then I'm calling Fitz/Chesskid/Elena for the scum team in this game.

As best I can tell, his scumreads who are still alive were Radja, DeasVail and Bins.

T-Bone

:

Spoiler:

Could try chesskid or Titus or....sigh Radja

vote:Radja

It looks like his viable lynches were chess and Radja.

Mina

:

Spoiler:

Dunkerdoodles, when did I become locktown?

I've been feeling good about Archwing being town after rereading the early game today. Aaaaaand I've been feeling like Bulbazak's paranoia around deadline is also very town!

And now I'm also feeling a lot better about Dunkerdoodles, so {xyzzy, DV, Bins} may actually be my pool. I'll need to do lots of rereading and ISOing past games tomorrow, though.

DV and Bins were her most recent pool.


From this, I think I'd like to lynch in {DV, Radja, Bins} today, with that being my order of preference, with the assumption that at least one of the NKs was made because of someone having good reads.

[Keychain]

I will be more here at the weekend. I really need to regroup and get my thoughts in order, then maybe I'll have something useful to say. It currently feels far too much to me like wandering in the dark. Some reading and notetaking is in order I think!

Would everyone be able to rank DV, Radja and Bins in order of how much you want to lynch them?

Regarding massclaim - I'm not opposed, I think it could help narrow things down which today is definitely the day for.

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Questions from cheet to everyone still in the game:

- State any reasons why you think Arch is town.
- State any reasons why you think I'm scum.

That is all. No big cases needed, just a a little explanation will do

I might have more to say on this later but you're in my scumpool because 2/3 of the NKs were scumreading you and I'm using that to narrow things down for me, but I'm pretty lost on my independent read on you as of this moment. I'm leaning towards Arch town mostly for the reasons given by Mina in 3650.

Would everyone be able to rank DV, Radja and Bins in order of how much you want to lynch them?

Radja then dv then bins. Why am I and dunker not in this group?

Bulba is also not in this group. I explained the pool in 3772. Thanks for the response.

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I read through Radja's ISO and I can't help but read him as town. Notes I took are spoilered.

Spoiler: showing my working

Early posts undermining Dino's early townread on LLD seem unlikely to be from partners, and the slip in 198 of asking her a question she'd already addressed maybe too? Though I know when I'm scum I read my partners' posts less carefully, so maybe not.

I found 1368 very town, or if faked very impressive. Also early unprompted mentions of his team by name such as in 361 seem to be legit, and saying they're affecting his reads in 1370 also seems like too much casual detail to be fake.

Getting into the fight with Dino from like 1566 for calling him as the scumteam (especially with LLD) seems unwise from a scum perspective, who would want to avoid drawing attention to it. Unless he thought he could get Dino lynched over it.

2094 brings up a good point, though unrelated to Radja - A50 had claimed VT. Did scum think he was gambitting? Who in the game would expect that of him and kill him for it? Or maybe his reads are worth an extra look.

Posts like 2357 are puzzling. Continuing to push Mathdino for policy after claiming fruit vendor could be a way to keep busy as scum, but I don't think so. I would expect scum!Radja to be playing it squeaky clean after hammering a partner.

I bet I could make up a scumtell out of repeating "tbh" in 2667 but nah.

2835 shows looks like town cold feet and I think scum would have just gone without that.

Overall: it seems like he's put himself under the guillotine by getting into fights with town (Dino, Titus and most recently in 3775) too often to be scum, and the level of early detail he provided of his team's reads seemed very natural and casual, and wasn't always addressing the immediate situation (361). Like it looked like there was a history of active discussion. If his team was providing fake reads, I'd expect him to echo them on the spot.

I could potentially be underestimating him and his team here but I would need a serious amount of convincing to vote him today, I think.

Next up is DeasVail's slot

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If you could order players by how much you townread them and give the reasons, that would be very helpful for following your spiral. Also how do you use scum!Arch to explain the NKs?

I can see why T-Bone and Mima could have been killed regardless of their reads, but was there a good reason for the Almost50 kill apart from his reads? I have no idea personally.

Sorry, backtracking a moment. DV, why would you think Mina would be killed regardless of her reads? The kill on her makes me more suspicious of you. Combined with this statement it kind of confirms to me that you in particular as scum would be super wary of her as a player.

A50 is a very strong town player but he had also claimed VT. Either scum thought he was a gambitting PR or he was enough of a threat to kill despite the claim. Can't remember if that's been said.

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I'm VT.

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So to summarise, everyone is claiming VT apart from DV who is claiming backup tracker?

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Oops, my bad. Here's where I'm at:

Dunkers still town partly because I think Boon's influence would be more visible if he were scum, and I think I trust Elena's final read on him.
Bulba strikes me as town.
Still townreading Radja :/
Ugh maybe Bins is actually scum, I can't remember why I was townreading her and moreover I can't remember why she's townreading me so solidly at this point in the game.
The only reason I'm really townreading Archwing is the sync up with UCV, but I did read 3841 and the consistencies are not as strong as they first appeared. Potentially Arch could have gotten them from a read through UCV's ISO and non-Creature teammates.
DV claimed PR so he can be sorted out later, doesn't lock him as town (my ability to detect real/fake claims based on setup spec is like nil) but if he is we'll see if scum are willing to give him a night to track.

yeah I'm not lynching Archwing.

Why would scum swear off their counterwagon like this?

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I don't really understand why that's more likely to make him scum than town? Townies generally want their reads to be remembered if they die. "Lynch me today" I can imagine being scum AtE, but Radja has played like that pretty much all game instead of only really bringing it out under pressure to make people iffy about lynching him.

I'm also looking at this:

Hey, if you want to get me lynched, you're going to have to work for it. Try pulling this wagon some more so you'll definitely get lynched tomorrow.

At the point he made it it was kind of laughable because he was at like L-1 and he's so likely to get lynched today. The fact that he made the post suggests town faith to me.