TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[davesaz]

VOTE: Ank

[davesaz]

With a few people comparing sizes of their

body parts

and some of the same and others doing nothing but whine about the game state, I figured we need some

wagons

.
I kinda also wanted to see who would comment, if anyone.

[davesaz]

VOTE: panth

[davesaz]

I have nom in possible scum but think lynching elsewhere is better because of mechanics.

[davesaz]

This post

Does panth have any reads yet? I vaguely remember noticing that there weren't any directly stated as such, or at least not an adequate number.

was me noticing quite a while back that there was something off about Panth.
I'm open to being updated on why I'm wrong about it.

Pedit: lol -- umm, ok fine I'll take a look

[davesaz]

Got any scumreads?

[davesaz]

The lol was not about new meds / other things taking your attention. I don't believe in questioning RL stuff.

[davesaz]

@ Dave

VOTE: Ank

Can you explain why you voted here?

You haven't talked about Ank much recently, so the naked vote comes as a bit of a surprise.

I replied to that.

[davesaz]

Surely you decided on Ank over nom (or any other wagon contender) for a reason.

Nom lynch is bad mechanically, there are better ways / times of handling that slot if scum.

Ank was/is the only other significant wagon.
I'd be in favor of DEB but that isn't going anywhere.
Someone reminded me that Panth has been useless, and my vote there resulted in a not very interesting read list.
I would not be surprised by both FB and Nom scum, splitting their hood in hopes that one scum flip will result in the other looking town.

Do you have a different alternative in mind?

[davesaz]

Surely you decided on Ank over nom (or any other wagon contender) for a reason.

Nom lynch is bad mechanically, there are better ways / times of handling that slot if scum.

personally I'd prefer to ignore mechanical arguments against lynching scum, since lynching scum outweighs every other mechanical benefit available from not lynching scum

but you do you

Nope, you're completely wrong.
Lynching scum with a venge allows that scum to kill a townie

who could otherwise be protected

.
For the scum with a venge, the timing is critical.
If you have a bullet available (Hello A50) then you don't lynch the scum with a venge at all.
Mechanics totally matters, and trying to brush it off is one of the reasons I can't put you in the top tier.

[davesaz]

I'm camping from tomorrow around 16oo UTC-7 through Sunday about the same time. I should have cell access but heavy distractions.

[davesaz]

@dave you need to reveal your JOAT results today

Not gonna happen. When I have info to give town, that will be the time.

[davesaz]

Tempted to un-bookmark the game a couple days so you morons can't goad me into posting my role pm or something.

[davesaz]

c/p from someone's list
writer Almost50 - Ankamius - Chennisden(T) - Vote Remove / Vigilante
actor Elements(T) - EspressoPatronum - Flavor Leaf - Doctor / 1shot Lightning Rod
actress Firebringer - nomnomnom(T) - Volpe14(T) - Commuter / Vengeful
director Kuribo - MariaR(M) - Panthaleon - Roleblocker / ???
CEO Dr Easy Bake - Gammagooey - Volxen(3p) - ??? / ???
composer Davesaz(T) - Deasvail(T) - Farkran(T) - Inventor / ???

Updated for Living:
A50 / Ank / vote remove->vig
EP / FL doc->lightning
FB (not in a group)
Kuribo / Panthaleon RB
DEB / Gammagooey -- CEO's, weird stuff??
Davesaz town, JOAT

? ? T
? ? T
x T T
? ? M
? ? 3
T T T

18p

14-3-1(3p)

director, CEO, writer
Maria, DEB/Gamma, A50/Ank -- FB if not solved within this.

[davesaz]

Revealing my info is helpful only to scum. This is not open for debate.

[davesaz]

How do you come to that conclusion?

[davesaz]

That definition of conf is a lot looser than the one I use.
In a high stakes game like this one, deliberate no-kill to get "conf" is a tactic that should remain among the possible.
I'd be willing to call it likely town.

[davesaz]

And for DEB to be scum, you have to believe essentially scum sacrificed Maria to save DEB. I know that’s not the full story, but I find it hard to believe scum save DEB and let Nomnom have a chance at shooting them.

You could tell near the end that scum was trying not to lynch Nomnom because of fear based on wagonomics.

I don't follow this either.
It's reasonable to assume that scum were worried about lynching nomnom, but that doesn't translate to anything else. It certainly doesn't translate to sacrificing Maria.

[davesaz]

I could have anywhere between 1 and 3 actions left, and I'm absolutely not going to reveal anything.

[davesaz]

^ until I know it helps town. At this point it doesn't.

[davesaz]

I give no priority to evens odds, wtf are you going on about?
6771 is the logic that guided my decision last night.
If the info would help town now then I’d give it now. If I say it won’t, it won’t!

[davesaz]

EBWOP 1st sentence, wrote that on an ipad but realized the shorthand won't make sense.

Even vs odd is not something I

ever

think about (any alignment), WTF are you going on about?

[davesaz]

Another explanation is one of the doc hood is scum, gambled on a 50/50 on the save, and lost.
That begs the question why not just shoot a 3rd townie who is outside the 2 being doc'd?

Shooting in the docs risks a guilty. So does trying to shoot anyone but me.
I'm wifoming my ass off here because scum don't know who it's safe to kill, nor which of them is safe to make it.

[davesaz]

There is nothing to sort -- I'm unquestionably town.
I mean it exactly that way. Nothing confirmed here, not especially obvious even. But still, logically it is not something that can be questioned.
I would have expected you to treat the remaining member of my hood the same.
I'm the closest thing this game has to being a cop.
Like just, really? The role is confirmed, and you just don't fuck with the role ever.

[davesaz]

A50 / Ank / vote remove->vig
It makes mechanical sense for scum to be in this group.
I successfully scumread A50 in a game where we were scum together Gotta be honest, I don't remember what I'm thinking this game.
Ank's posting, especially yesterday's, is so full of OMGUS and drama that I'd be hard pressed to tell what the real reads are.
I have much work to do, to figure out these two.

EP / FL doc->lightning
If there were scum in this group it would be weird. If a save goes awry that would tell the town in the hood that their
neighbor is scum. Furthermore scum can't really activate a LMS lightning rod without killing themselves, and lack of activating
would also be a red flag.
On top of that, I independently town read both FL and EP.

FB (not in a group)
Scum removing anyone from the Commuter / venge hood is a dice roll. It activates the venge and prevents the commute from being used as a 2nd doc.
It's entirely possible that scum wanted the hood gone early when the probability of getting 2 town is higher.
Frankly, we got lucky with nomnom's venge choice. I could see that going a lot of different directions.
FB is independently scummy to me, regardless of the hood roles.

Kuribo / Panthaleon RB
We already got one scum from this hood. Someone made a big point about the chances of 2 scum, early in the game. I don't remember
if that was arguing in favor of the possibility of 2 scum or if it was arguing against that.
I think Kuribo is genuine and is a strong TR for me.
Panthaleon has been extremely sketchy to me. I don't remember a single concrete read coming from this direction

DEB / Gammagooey -- CEO's, weird stuff??
One of the CEO's flipped 3p. Symmetry begs for there to be scum in this group.
I have made no secret of my scumread on DEB.
Gammagooey is one of my weakest TR, partly because DEB being useless and partly because Gamma just feels off.
Hypothetically if I didn't commute then this would tip the scales toward DEB scum, almost regardless of everything else.

[davesaz]

I said I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

This is correct.

I interpreted this as meaning that FL's post in the hood was:

I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Followed by a separate post saying

Not Panth or FB.

I said that I think FL just put a comma instead of 'or' in the first post, and it's

probably

not a slip.
If we got to a point that there had to be scum in the EP/FL hood this would definitely point to FL. But I think it does not point to FL right now because I strongly doubt there is scum in that hood at all.

You're welcome to interpret it differently.

[davesaz]

Very interested in discussion relating to 6780.
Subtle reminder that it's possible to make strong points with few posts...

[davesaz]

Nice talk, means nothing while your vote is in the wrong place.

[davesaz]

Very interested in discussion relating to 6780.
Subtle reminder that it's possible to make strong points with few posts...

What sort of discussion are you looking for regarding 6780? I didn't see any new material + most of your points are effectively, "it's a dice roll" or "we'll have to wait to see."

I see it as mostly new material.
Maybe 90% of the thread has been a never ending series of 1v1 with practically no wholistic view imo.
Only one of the pairs is a dice roll, the A50/ank where any of the 3 likely outcomes is possible and I haven’t been able to dig deep enough. A50’s most recent leans strong town so I’m almost down to ank or nobody in that group.

[davesaz]

I'm going to break one of my favorite personal guidelines here. ^**

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Spoiler: **

That guideline being, always follow the mechanically optimum path

[davesaz]

You mentioned you townread FL independent of his role before Almost and my (and EP's) posts about FL

Can you give a brief post on why you did and which posts since then changed your mind?

Why the TR? I'm susceptible to a reasonableness and activity bias. In the absence of things that trigger me, I tend to townread people who seem to be actively sorting and seem to be reasonable. FL's specific behavior toward me this game has fluctuated between near-buddying and scumreads in a way that felt like natural progression. Basically the good put him above the line and there wasn't anything noticeable to pull him back below.

What changed? I tend to dismiss "slips" as evidence because (1) I have a non-scientific feeling that they are pointed out by scum more often than town and (2) even when town point them out they tend to be much ado over nothing. One solitary ", Maria" felt too nit picky to me. A pattern of behavior is something else entirely. Especially if it matches up temporally with in-game events in a suspicious way.

[davesaz]

What do you think about my observation that panth hasn’t really had reads most of the game? On track? Missing something? Immaterial? Something else?

[davesaz]

That self-centered reaction is totally uninteresting to me.

[davesaz]

@FL: I'm not interested in seeing self-centered stuff. Try posting like it's not about you.

[davesaz]

Nobody votes a cop.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Firebringer
Think I'll do this for a while.

[davesaz]

Because I think he's scum, of course.
That's typically how it works.

[davesaz]

You have no need to sort me. The sooner you accept that fact the easier things will go. I do get it, and I admit I often have those same thoughts when the roles are flipped. If there were a way to do it without compromising town's available resources, I would share without hesitating.

That said, I want to make it very clear that I do have very good reasons for doing what I do (except when I'm wrong of course but if that happens we're fucked anyway). I got into a similar discussion with Chenn all the way back to d1. I chose this game because it's my element, solving logic puzzles while making sure scum can't mess with the solve. <I must admit the setup is quite a bit more curveball than expected > I don't want scum to know which abilities I have already used (if any), who is safe to make the kill, or who is safe to target.

Thought processes will be shared, not because it's necessary to prove myself, but because I need them to be reviewed to make sure they're right. I have to be able to guess who will act / be acted upon after all, and who knows maybe I'm like

Mississippi Kid

. Y'all's job is easy, either protect me so I'm alive to give results, or guess that scum won't go after me and protect someone else to give us an extra lynch. So far, so good.

[davesaz]

I had some really great creamy potato and leek soup and watched some TV with my wife.
Kinda expected to be hounded, instead just one new post. Pleasant surprise.

Hopefully I'll be able to go into FB tomorrow. Gotta warn you, it's mostly about not doing stuff which will probably be kinda boring.

[davesaz]

As an aside, gobble wants to know why you're trying so hard in this game but you didn't try in MM2. You called this game a curveball of a logic puzzle, but we think MM2 was more of a traditional logic puzzle than this game.

In MM2 I had a Beloved Princess role. Low key is the mechanical optimum -- stand out too much, get NK'd, town loses a day. By the time enough info was available to be useful, I had been culted. Also it's pretty common knowledge that RL for me is extremely variable, so gobble might be comparing to a heavy RL period.

This game has plenty of logic -- sure, not quite as much but it's adequate. The curveball is how it starts out group oriented and morphs to individual.

I have meetings and debugging today. FB later, I hope.

[davesaz]

Why FB over FL? Did FL say something that made you feel better about him?

I didn't reply to this part. Moving off FL doesn't mean I'm no longer scumreading him.
Need to examine the timing of what (little) FB has done today.

[davesaz]

FL is feeling the pressure

Yeah, that outburst, especially whole pages of one liners, seemed extremely knee-jerky and frankly panic driven to me. I wonder if it's FL overplaying the defense given his high number of scum wins last year, as if to say scum!FL wouldn't be worried...

Going from memory here, I was also struck by the dichotomy of FL being worried about himself being pushed / vigged but not worried about a NK or surprised that both he and EP survived.

[davesaz]

I think flavor is town because I don’t think scum would give nom the gun when nom was wanting to shoot flavor

I don't think nom was particularly suspicious of Flavor at the end of d3/beginning of night 3, she was pushing on you primarily (from a quick skim)

This is false.

It was a big topic of conversation yesterday about how I was the most likely venge shot too

How much of this was just from you?

All of it. As far as I know he's the only one who even mentioned it.

[davesaz]

okay rc message for u:

fl and ank are both scum they have been obvious as a pairing with maria since mid day 2 and since we got a scum flip i can finally see that, ank kept doing pushes on maria and FL then finding excuses to drop it and someone is competent in the scum team to realize that maria and FL were outted for days and since they are still advocating for us (me) to be lynched that is outside their town ranges

And yet I don't see you acting on this.

[davesaz]

Firebringer literally mentioned in like last page. Wasn’t just me.

Yesterday is what matters.

[davesaz]

Hey EP,

Hypothetically, what if I already watched the doctor I'm more townreading (the one not named FL) a couple nights ago? Advice for that case needs to be covered too. Hypothetically...

[davesaz]

Dave’s likely scum based on not confirming Gamma as town

How many times do I need to say (well, imply...) that my freedom of action to track or watch a kill outweighs any benefit of confirming someone who is already townread by

everyone

anyway?

[davesaz]

Besides scum could have no-killed, so it's not confirmed in any sense of the word.
I'm literally the only one on MS who really understands what confirmed means.
This is a site where people lie about stuff to win games.
The only things that are ever confirmed are what the mod says in a non-bastard game.

Gammagoey looks town to me, that's enough for me.

[davesaz]

N3 watched EP, no visits

[davesaz]

I may or may not have commuted last night because EP may or may not have been clear on whether the lightning rod would be activated.
You may or may not understand that it's critical for scum to think I have a commute available so that they kill someone else.
I definitely understand that I'll policy vote anyone who questions this ever again.

It's unfortunate that I jumped to conclusions that the docs would be targeted right away. The watch last night would have been much better.
Effective use of a track in earlier nights would have required luck on who performed the kill. Using it on a lightning rod night is useless. Saving it for later is optimum.

[davesaz]

Because at that point in time there were almost as many people voting me as scum.
I tol you asshats to shut the fuck up and you kept picking...

[davesaz]

My post was not pointing at anyone specific.
I don't remember seeing any overt support on trying to play it quiet.

How many shots do we have at getting this right?
I'm down for any of DEB, FB, Panth.

You're wondering about what I was thinking yesterday, I saw FB's vote on me as a naked chainsaw.

From being teamed with caught!FL in a recent game, I would not be at all surprised if some of the flail points to a partner. He does that to try to tarnish town on the way down and hide his associations by making them seem to be part of the tarnish. I'm biased though, 1 game isn't enough sample, and beats me how to interpret it in any case.

pedit: @RC so was FB on his own voting me or did you suddenly wake up and realize I'm town?

[davesaz]

what were you hoping for

A more specific plan.

[davesaz]

VOTE: gammagoey

FL argument saying conftown makes this deepwolf until I’m convinced otherwise.

[davesaz]

7- dave is like a wold card. I TR him, but I am having trouble parsing his overly cautious/close to chest play in this game. I know he usually doesn't like to show his hand early, but this is a bit taking it over the top here. skitter can't read him.

dave is a wild card 9as I said) so I'm hoping DEB's lynch will end the game so i won't have to pull what's left of my hair out trying to guess what exactly he's up to.

It's actually quite easy to understand if you think about it a little.
What I'm up to is surviving long enough to use my ability to get a guilty.
It isn't looking too good for that unfortunately.

The way that people read me this game has messed me up completely. General rules of how towns work are getting completely ignored.
The way that people focus on themselves to the exclusion of making progress outside the 1v1's has messed me up too.

[davesaz]

Ank. Kuribo. Nom. Lots...

I assert there is nothing wrong with my play. This is exactly what I would do in any town game.

[davesaz]

If scum win it will be because FL "conftowned" Gammagoey.
This is my postgame "told you so" post.

VOTE: DEB

[davesaz]

If you think Gamma is scum, why are you lynching DEB and making Gamma bulletproof?

Is there the slightest chance what I think matters in this case?

[davesaz]

I do want to know what Dave is trying to accomplish calling DEB scum and Gamma scum with him though

Don't hurt yourself too much making assumptions.
Where does "with" come from?

[davesaz]

I just want him to actually be telling his reads on people based on what they've done in-game instead of saying shit like one of me/DEB are scum for setup symmetry and I'm scum for part of FL's scum spam at the end of yesterday

You think I'm not serious about thinking these things?
Not being taken seriously is one of the things that tends to piss me off.
I think DEB is scum based on his non-playing, regardless of symmetry.
I think that if we don't find scum, leading to a scum win, it will be because you're the deepwolf. Despite what your play looks like.
Yes, I think those things. I'm not kidding in the slightest.

[davesaz]

I hate having to clip off the damn team names when I make a read list, so this time I'll just leave them. Here's what it's at in terms of play. Unordered within groups. Should be an auto win if we just lynch at the bottom, unless we're looking at more than 2 scum. I'm thinking 1 is even possible, if less likely.

davesaz - Busboy Revolution

Gammagooey - Old Hat
kuribo - The Four Horsement
Almost50 - You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap
Ankamius - cancel food

panthaleon - Doomsday
Firebringer GuyInFreezer - Bird That Carries You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap

Dr Easy Bake - The Maurauders

[davesaz]

I don't believe in lock town, but if I did the 5 at the top win this most of the time -- if they quit sniping each other all the time. The line between Ank and panth is like the Grand Canyon for God's sake...

[davesaz]

I do want to know what Dave is trying to accomplish calling DEB scum and Gamma scum with him though

Don't hurt yourself too much making assumptions.
Where does "with" come from?

.... because if you're trying to lynch scum

And voting DEB

and also calling Gamma scum

And it isn't multiball that we know of


Wouldn't that imply them being scum together?

You do realize it's possible to have more scumreads than there are scum?
Two independent things. You're the one saying that two scumreads implies they're scum together, not me.

[davesaz]

Group analysis
davesaz -- I'm town

Almost50 / Ankamius -- Behavioral TR on A50. Need to review Ank

Firebringer -- Pretty explicitly not scumhunting, and really should do some vote analysis of this slot

Kuribo / Panthaleon -- Much stronger TR on Kuribo. Panthaleon hasn't been memorable to me but a quick review had me leaning not-bussing

Gammagoey -- TR by behavior, slight SR on Flavor Leaf spew, all scum/3p hood would be interesting mechanically

Individual by reads
davesaz
Kuribo, Gammagoey, Almost50
Ankamius, Panthaleon
Firebringer

[davesaz]

You say absolutely nothing about who is scum.

[davesaz]

Nope, you haven't expressed a scumread this page.

[davesaz]

RC being surprised your slot is alive is just hilarious.

[davesaz]

I'm not mad.

But seriously, if there is a scumread on that page (that comes from you not RC) then I'm not seeing it.

[davesaz]

I'm not mad.

But seriously, if there is a scumread on that page (that comes from you not RC) then I'm not seeing it.

1) uve never cared about my reads before.
2) now it doesn't matter my teammates give reads it has to be me.
3) if i gave u "MY READS" it wouldn't be much different than RC cause I am fine with his and think panth/kuribo is a good pool because my townreads are solid enough in everyone else that i am fine betting game on everyone else being town. Also you don't actually care about my reads. His reads are my reads, etc. But he gets all the credit for them not me. I am 90% sheeping and just disagree with him putting gamma in the scum pool.

Now you're the one not noticing what I say. Or at least not interpreting the meaning right. I've been saying for ages that I don't think your slot is trying to find scum.
The caring more about the player in this game and less about teammates is across the board.

[davesaz]

Kuribo as a scumread, and only Kuribo, is a really tall hill for scum!FB to be manufacturing.
Would team!RC gamble on calling 4 people near conf? Better question, would this be a bad enough situation to make that the best play?

[davesaz]

RC being surprised your slot is alive is just hilarious.

rc also wants to know why this is funny when he just won paragon and nsg was last year paragon and they have called all three flipped scum.

I keep a running mental picture of the game.
You did not factor into that picture, basically at all. Nothing memorable. The only thing I can state that I remember with 100% accuracy is being removed from the hood.
I remember a little controversy from GiF on D1, followed by essentially a vacuum until the announcement that you were booted from the hood. And not much concrete since.
I'd have to ISO to know what I've missed.
I think it's mostly style, and I'm not terribly proud of it, but for some reason I just don't notice what you post.
Another part of it is that I probably don't want to hear what teammates are saying, in general. I'm basically running solo here.
I don't mean this to sound harsh in any way -- I just want to explain what's happening.

It's 00:40 here and therefore sleepy time. Just letting you know that the next 8-10 hours are not me ignoring things.

[davesaz]

Reminder that no-killing on purpose to get a "guilty" or "innocent", especially when down by this much, is totally within the realm of scum tactics. Especially with old-timers.
Bonus points if you can come to the conclusion that pointing this out is 100% town motivated.
You made me stay up another 10 minutes.

[davesaz]

I hate having to clip off the damn team names when I make a read list, so this time I'll just leave them. Here's what it's at in terms of play. Unordered within groups. Should be an auto win if we just lynch at the bottom, unless we're looking at more than 2 scum. I'm thinking 1 is even possible, if less likely.

davesaz - Busboy Revolution

Gammagooey - Old Hat
kuribo - The Four Horsement
Almost50 - You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap
Ankamius - cancel food

panthaleon - Doomsday
Firebringer GuyInFreezer - Bird That Carries You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap

Dr Easy Bake - The Maurauders

I don't believe in lock town, but if I did the 5 at the top win this most of the time -- if they quit sniping each other all the time. The line between Ank and panth is like the Grand Canyon for God's sake...

For A50.

[davesaz]

No commute last night.

[davesaz]

@kuribo: One more time, please. Can you tell us how your hood ended up blocking the Inventors twice in a row? Oorc, No Maria proposed it and you agreed. Then on N2 Maria proposed it and... I don't remember which of you/panth supported it. Please be patient with me and gibe us your statement once more.

@pathL You can do the same if you like.

Maria proposed it N1, Vex and I both agreed since we were both scumreading Dave anyway.

N2, I was still scumreading Dave, and no harm had been reported after blocking him N1, (literally my reasoning being: "well we did it last night and whatever we blocked didn't seem to have hurt anything") and the rest of the hood agreed.

Day 3 Dave outted what his group was doing and you outted your own group, giving us a much better place to roleblock. I specifically told the group that we would not be roleblocking anywhere else for the remainder of the game. I've stuck to that, and to the best of my knowledge so has panth.

If you target an individual who isn’t part of a group now does that block the individual actions?
How is abstain / vote resolved in your group? Could one of you act alone? Are you saying you have been blocking the vote steal?

[davesaz]

@gamma: I routinely try to challenge shallow slip based stuff. Fine I was wrong about fl. Yes it can happen. I voted fb because He naked voted me — it’s easy to imagine someone who doesn’t know me scumreading me in this circumstance but not a frequent flyer.

[davesaz]

There's a reason I'll never be paragon. People try to listen to me when I'm wrong (and make that into scum), and ignore me when I'm right.
You're damn right I didn't have strong reads. Name a game I've ever had strong reads.

[davesaz]

I've had Panth as iffy for quite a while.
Are we waiting for anything in particular?

[davesaz]

VOTE: panthaleon

[davesaz]

Everything I've done has been tactically / strategically correct for town.
There have been some times I've been

wrong

but nothing that's even the slightest bit scum motivated.
Feel free to explain any such concrete motivation you see. I'd love to hear why you think that.

[davesaz]

I want more from Dave besides a naked vote to save himself

I've said who I scumread and why, and voted them.
It's impossible to prove "absence of real scumhunting" using quotes. I have to say that's what the case is, and leave it up to the townies to either see it or not.

[davesaz]

@dave - is there another town PR game where you kept your reads/reasonings so close to your chest you can link me?

I don't think that I have had watcher/tracker before. Certain things are extremely situational, and this is one of them. I think you're probably under-estimating how much I've said what my reads are. If you're thinking about the things I expect, you're concentrating on a time period where I said the benefit to scum of my going into detail outweighs the benefit to town.

I can easily show games with attitude.

[davesaz]

This one you don't get to see a flip because it got cancelled, but you can take my word for being a TPR. Real folk blues

[davesaz]

In Elemental Trinity I was a TPR who got blocked and fucked over by someone in my neighborhood, who IIRC turned out to be scum. Check the last 25% or so of my iso to see what angry Dave looks like, and compare to D3 here.

I'll give you a hint -- I play mafia as me. Not a persona...

[davesaz]

And do you remember how you felt about Flavor Leaf through days 3 & 4?

Somewhat suspicious evidenced by 4875 and 5097.
I couldn't do anything more than speed read huge chunks of those days IIRC due to V/LA and heavy work days draining my brain.

[davesaz]

<size reduced>

Dave’s likely scum based on not confirming Gamma as town

How many times do I need to say (well, imply...) that my freedom of action to track or watch a kill outweighs any benefit of confirming someone who is already townread by

everyone

anyway?

Reminder that FL was trying to goad me into "confirming" Gamma. Why would scum!FL want a townie confirmed?

[davesaz]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

[davesaz]

So you haven't seen independent thought before, that happens to juxtapose with something else.

[davesaz]

Somewhat

Words have meanings, you should look this one up.
I'm an extremely precise person.
Except when I lack the time or I'm trying to do stuff on a tiny screen that needs a full keyboard and big display.

[davesaz]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

Good thing u don’t need to like it

Can we please PL this?

[davesaz]

No, on day 3 I thought DV was scum, and suspected the RB hood partner was Maria. FL hadn't done anything at that point that would lead me to want to vote him. Enough to pay attention.

I might have gone for "comma gate" the same day it first came up if the pattern of evidence had also come out at that time. If that was D4, then it's possible. He really imploded when pressed and if that implosion had happened sooner I would have jumped on him.

You're going to ask why I voted FB, which I have already answered. If we're already going to lynch scum, and I see a clear partner tell like FB chainsawing me, hell yes I'm going to draw attention to it.

Let's recap and update a bit.
FB chainsawed and doesn't seem able to act on his own.
Panth doesn't really seem to have true scum reads and had to be put to L-1 plus see that someone else would join him before he'd attack me.

Don't forget that scum!FL tried to conftown Gammagoey. Why does scum want to conftown anyone?
I'm only on the table because I'm the only real danger to scum here. Town loses if you keep this up.

[davesaz]

I've said it for years and I'll say it until the day comes that I'm finally permbanned for telling someone to crawl up their own ass and suffocate on feces

Nobody is confirmed town until they're dead or mod cleared.

And I'm not even trying to shade ank as scum, I just hate the site meta where people run around calling themselves confirmed town.

Oh, so there is someone else other than me who understands this very basic but apparently hard to swallow concept.

[davesaz]

Don't forget that scum!FL tried to conftown Gammagoey. Why does scum want to conftown anyone?

Again: because it was clearly sus AF if gooey was the scum NK and DEB was the LMS. Confirming your future NK provides the necessary WIFOM of "DEB got the LMS bc he is no threat to scum". Let;s not forget the LMS of that particular hood was not yet revealed, so if scum could have lynched in me/Ank the next day the Vig shot on DEB would have failed and they would have killed the Vig too (well, they

assumed

the Vig shot would be on DEB)

OK, that's a moderately sensible view. Let's explore some followup scenarios.

Suppose DEB and Gammagoey are both scum with FL. I think the scumteam gains a lot from trying to conf Gammagoey. If DEB then goes down, which looks pretty likely from all the people who suspected him up to that point, it leaves the scumteam with a quasi-confirmed locktown. Isn't that the very definition of how to set your scum team up to win?

Suppose I'm scum with DEB and FL. FL confs Gamma, and lays down suspicion on me by casting doubt on my use of the LMS. Surely we can't think that DEB is going to endgame. Sure at that point FL hasn't gone down so you could cast this scenario as a straightforward virtual bus on me. But FL still has to deal with a very unnecessary confirmed townie. On top of that, if I'm teamed with FL then why don't I back his play? That path hypothetically makes me look better, and both of us potentially survive and go on to win. If you look closely I actively worked against FL's attempt to conf Gamma.

Third scenario, Gamma and I are both town. It's pretty unclear to me in this case how confing Gamma helps the scumteam. The objective had to be to cast doubt on me, the investigative.

=====================================
Once again, all of that being said,

I still TR Gamma on behavior

. This whole post is my gift to town should you be stupid enough to lynch me. If it gets down to a bunch of ObvTown left at LYLO, this is my posthumous vote.

If we lynch obv scum, I think we just win. Panth -> FB is the solve.

[davesaz]

Remember that other guy we lynched for refusing to do anything useful in the game?
He flipped scum.

[davesaz]

I guess I'll remove the bookmark and wait to get a PM.

[davesaz]

I want more from Dave besides a naked vote to save himself

Asked and answered.
I have said who is scum and why.
That's it.
Either lynch me and lose, or lynch someone else and win.
I'm done talking about it.

[davesaz]

This bugs me enough to just post my role pm and get it over with.
But I'd like to serve the site as a listmod or even admin. Can't do that as a rule breaker.

[davesaz]

Panth is scum.
If not panth then FB.
If not FB then Gamma.

How many times do I have to say this?

[davesaz]

I may have my track left, so if we don't lynch scum and I don't get killed I might get a guilty.

I can't get into the depths of how stupid it is to lynch me. It's just beyond belief that anyone would consider it.

[davesaz]

One of my two obvscum thought it was important enough to avoid being tracked and were unsure enough whether I had commuted or not that they took a gamble on not killing.
Or Gamma is a high enough kill priority that they killed into a BP to try to get to the point they can actually kill him.

[davesaz]

JFC I've been saying that the whole time.
I'd have to hit you over the head with a fucking brick to make the point any more forcefully.
I even said it doesn't prove I'm town.
It doesn't matter -- town

must

take the chance that I'll get a guilty.
If you had even half an ounce of common sense you'd automatically leave me till lylo.
But no, everyone has to ignore the obvious.

[davesaz]

There is only one correct way to play this. Pull your head out of your ass.

[davesaz]

I'm always conflicted at times like this.
So hard to tell the difference between town playing bad, and scum doing what would be optimum for them.
I can say that town playing bad makes it easier for scum to blend in. And there have to be town playing bad here.

[davesaz]

Maybe I should reverse the logic and be suspicious of A50 as the only one who firmly TRs me.

[davesaz]

pretty sure his behavior rn isn't townie or scummie but a child acting out and should be ignored.

I'm 59 years old, and this post is being reported.

[davesaz]

pretty sure his behavior rn isn't townie or scummie but a child acting out and should be ignored.

I'm 59 years old, and this post is being reported.

Your profile says 58

You're right, it does. I misspoke. 58.5

[davesaz]

You think a game that is modded by listmods will allow not playing to your wincon?

[davesaz]

FIRRRE ill be done with errands in like an hour and im tired of being bored and restless

Does RC actually have reads and are you going to vote someone or no

I told you already, if it's not Panth then it's FB being obvscum and trying to hide behind RC.

[davesaz]

All insults are being reported. JSYK.

[davesaz]

I'm not fucking kidding. Stop posting.

[davesaz]

Ageism, since you seem unable to get the hint.

[davesaz]

Nice, scum took a gamble and made a mistake.
I had my track left. Should have killed me and tried to win the lylo.
VOTE: kuribo

Should be game over.

[davesaz]

Do I remember correctly you have a double vote?
Wanna make sure everyone else remembers it too.

[davesaz]

It’s a guilty. Take the easy road and don’t forget to nominate me for saving the game.

[davesaz]

I tracked kuribo to Ank.

To decide who to track it was necessary to consider the gamestate.
I'm being left alive as a ML.
The empty kills were popping gammagoey's vests.
Scum gameplan was to kill not-me and frame me because I failed to track.
If I failed to track then my scumreads were wrong.
Therefore it's someone I'm not scumreading. Either kuribo or A50.
Kuribo hammered under conditions where it may still have been possible to get me.
Ergo track kuribo since he's so confident he can get me the next day.

If I had failed to track and been lynched it was a mech scum win. A50 probably vigs and would never vig kuribo, and that leaves scum+1 in the morning -> game over.

Yes, I saved this game for town.

[davesaz]

@A50:
That's actually hard.
5 scum plus a 3p is awfully scumsided isn't it?
The CEO or the homeless (actress? I don't remember). Tough decision.

[davesaz]

then not track/watch anyone that night?

Watch had already been used IIRC.
Held on to track for 1 scum remaining so that I couldn't false inno. That's basic usage of a 1-shot, surprised you even need to ask.

[davesaz]

You're seriously considering lynching one of the best mechanical players on the site, with a guilty, over that guilty.
Inconceivable.

[davesaz]

I'm more concerned with THE POINT of you nuzzling up to FL through the entire day instead of having reads of your own on day 4 and sharing them with everyone

Keeping myself scummy enough that I wouldn't be shot immediately?
Having a huge problem at work that was keeping me up at night, so I didn't have time?
Feeling a little annoyed with several people who were breaking one of the most sacred golden rules of mafia and scumreading the cop?
I don't know, probably a mix of all of that.
Also FL was buddying the fuck out of me if I remember right, and I'm susceptible to clinging to what seems to be the only voice of reason.

[davesaz]

Conveniently not even using his watch when there was a lightning rod

It had already been used the night before when I fully expected the doc to be killed.
I even picked the non-scum doc.

[davesaz]

If you're ever going to vote me then go ahead and throw the game right now. I don't want to read this shit any more.
I'm done talking with you.
Hope to never see you again.
I play town the way I play and if you don't like it then don't join games I'm in.

[davesaz]

Thanks for opening it.
Can you address that with individuals who become uncivil (if any), instead of a blanket close?

Kuribo, I think you did well. You were left with a tightrope to walk, and I think if you had managed to get me out of the way sooner it might have been enough to squeak a win.

[davesaz]

I had some regret at allowing DV to be lynched. Knowing I was town letting that lynch happen was a tactical move to allow use of our group ability a night sooner. The scumread was actually very minor.
If DV not lynched we have to gift town who doesn't get killed or lynched, then wait another night, and hope the action finds something.
Using the LMS advances the action availability by a night. Haven't read scum PT yet but wondering if they held off killing in Dr hood to avoid being watched and caught.