TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

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(Jingle does know that just btw, but he’s been riffing on the idea of the imag flip being a mistake in our teamchat ever since implo posted it)

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Our team consensus is that Mith is absolutely 100% town here

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Why do you think it’s dats > Bella again?

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I was looking through some of your iso and i couldn’t highlight why you’re so confident on dats only that you are very confident there

Only skimmed through the last ~200 posts tho so I might be missing something

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Also do you have strong feelings on wanting to hammer? I would quite like to hammer so if you wouldn’t mind voting jjh then I’ll drop it before I go to bed

True but I did also say this to her right before that vote

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Idk I think whoever of dats/Bella is scum needs to support jjh!lim bc ali was doubling down on trying to divert it

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mwna had been in favour of yeeting jjh publicly for a while, no?

if bella didn't allow for hammer while i was asleep, o would've hammered it when i woke up. her vote there doesn't really... mean much

I was in favour of yeeting jjh for the majority of day save a brief moment when I had two team solved that both had Mith and I was very worried about a scum N3 gun

One of those teams was Mith/ythan tho and then I was talked round in teamchat on why it didn’t make sense and went back to supporting jjh

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Nah but see Ali was trying to be the one to bus.

E sniffed out I wouldn't settle on a third scum for e, which made them realize they were probably my third scum.

And that made Ali flip to "pushing Ythan" mode. Why?

If Dats was town, right? Ali should have done

Push JJH, let mith shoot Dats, and then end up in a confusing spot in 6p with 2 scum decently disguised.

So why didn't she just hop aboard? They went for a win yesterday, but hopping aboard once it looked the way it did, if Bella was scum, with a Datisi shot by Mith....?

Ali/Bella win that game. I'm conf town next day qnd MAYBE I get Ali but it's not clear cut at all

The only reason for All to flip IMO is because e was handshaking to a game loss. Because we would shoot Dats and then e would die.

Wasn’t Mith always more on shooting ali>dats though?

So you know you’re going down anyway if you’re ali there, or very likely, so you might as well burn your slot pushing to save your buddy

Like if dats is scum and ali is scum… ali was better positioned to back jjh lim initially? And I don’t see why, especially not with ali having a bit of an ego tbh, why e would change to doing the defending instead of getting dats to try and shift the lim and get shot leaving er to try and win at 3p

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Here is my question: you went dead forever yesterday. How much did you post in your neighbour QT with Mena?

How many posts did you spend trying to sway Mena over to your side?

I can answer this once I check with implo that saying the number of posts we each made in hood isn’t breaking game ruels

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For me:

Dats has day 1 Gimli interactions that look terrible and scummy.

Dats has a towncase on Ali that looks horrible in hindsight.

Dats voted Ythan. If Dats is town why didn't the scum try to hinge off that and win with 4 votes on Ythan? Bring Mena over for 5th? If it is Gimli Ali Bella why did kill JJH?

Why did Ali stop leaving eirself open to bussing and flip out when e realized I didn't townread eir? If Dats is town... Doesn't make sense as a move.

Okay I need to look at the gimli bit and the ali bit

But on the voting ythan thing, I don’t think they ever get to 5, is why

Ythan never votes herself, and I was never voting ythan, neither were you, and neither was Mith

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I think dats, if he is scum here, is aware that he’s under pressure and needs to keep me on side to have a chance at winning later

I think he knew I was strongly set enough on jjh that trying to bring me over would have been the thing that fully set my paranoia alarm off and that he knows well enough not to try that

Not to mention that I was never having day end in a 4/4 tie

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I think dats, if he is scum here, is aware that he’s under pressure and needs to keep me on side to have a chance at winning later

I think he knew I was strongly set enough on jjh that trying to bring me over would have been the thing that fully set my paranoia alarm off and that he knows well enough not to try that

Not to mention that I was never having day end in a 4/4 tie

I wrote 1st para in present tense but I meant it from his point of view at the time yesterday

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Also another reason to kill dats today is if we fo Bella and Bella is town and I get shot

I am not sure you two will turn on each other and then there might be "is Mith scum?" talks

I think you don’t understand the dynamic that dats and I have

We’ve played a lot of games together, we had a period where I fooled him a few times, a period where he fooled me a few times, a period where every game was intense paranoia and a bit unfun and didn’t play for a while, and I think have reached a point where we’re okay at balancing it

Although I did tell him that if he flips scum here then him not being hyper paranoid of me in future games is a scumtell for him

My point is — yes, I think either of us with neighbouriser almost always hoods the other N1 unless there was a very strong suspicion they had of that person, and even then probably still makes the hood sometimes to try and nail down the read

However, we’re both still independent players looking at the game and I don’t think either would buy the other one trying to sell Mith in a f3 where we flip Bella today and she’s town. I just don’t believe that happens, I know I’m not being sold on that, again Mith is basically as good as conftown to me after the ali interactions followed by successfully shooting scum

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Let me check, hang on

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I can answer the second bit tho — yes, but there’s no way I ever would have admitted it and I would have made the vote in the final 30 seconds before deadline officially expired

I can find evidence of me sticking to a line like that too to force the compromise the other way too, it was from a coalition game I played ages ago

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Also another reason to kill dats today is if we fo Bella and Bella is town and I get shot

I am not sure you two will turn on each other and then there might be "is Mith scum?" talks

I think you don’t understand the dynamic that dats and I have

We’ve played a lot of games together, we had a period where I fooled him a few times, a period where he fooled me a few times, a period where every game was intense paranoia and a bit unfun and didn’t play for a while, and I think have reached a point where we’re okay at balancing it

Although I did tell him that if he flips scum here then him not being hyper paranoid of me in future games is a scumtell for him

My point is — yes, I think either of us with neighbouriser almost always hoods the other N1 unless there was a very strong suspicion they had of that person, and even then probably still makes the hood sometimes to try and nail down the read

However, we’re both still independent players looking at the game and I don’t think either would buy the other one trying to sell Mith in a f3 where we flip Bella today and she’s town. I just don’t believe that happens, I know I’m not being sold on that, again Mith is basically as good as conftown to me after the ali interactions followed by successfully shooting scum

So for you, your perspective isn't "Dats is number 1 town"

It's "one of me dats and bella is scum, and if I convince the town to kill the other 2 I win"

Which is unfortunately also the wcum wincon between you three ahahah

My perspective is the same I’d have as scum here yes

My thoughts are — I still don’t think datisi plays the game the way he has if scum. Lld is conftown, Mith is de facto conftown

Therefore it’s probably Bella

If it isn’t Bella and dats has hard pocketed me then fun, we get to 1v1 tomorrow, amazing

I’m not going to kick and scream about not limming dats today, but equally I’m trusting my read as best I can, while I will look at the points you made on dats/gimli and dats/ali aorn I want to lim Bella bc I think that’s a better chance of ending the game here and I’m lazy

Also I hate doing 1v1s as either alignment so I’d rather try to lim the more likely final scum today

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Oh and jingle has mech stuff for me to talk about re the neighbourhood but I’m confused by exactly what he’s saying

Something about how scum manipulation doesn’t make sense from the mech stuff we did — basically that my first post was trying to get dats to act as if he’d neighbourised me so that we could get scum to misaim a NK if I hooded one on a later night

There’s some more but I’m trying to understand better so I can paraphrase it

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Unless Dats is town in which case I flip and its over they quickhammer

I think this is more likely bc I don’t think I ever indicated I would be down to vote ythan

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Let me look to be sure

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You get what I am doing right mena

I only need 1townie

Yes

Also, the Friday before I went away I gave koba’s solve which was Bella/ythan/jjh but i wouldn’t say dats jumped on that to try and sell me on ythan by any means

And then by Thursday last week I was explicit that we needed to flip jjh

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I now wish I hadn’t done the gambit last night of trying to add ythan again just in case bc I think if you/Mith are in PT then (1) you see how much dats and I were talking about game there esp on d2 and also (2) I think it’s very clearing for my slot individually because it adds context to what I was doing in main thread

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I think if I we don’t win today then it’s a wifom game of who to add so I’m not gonna talk more about that unless you and Mith like, really want me to

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Well jingle agrees with that as well so I guess there’s really no reason not to

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Neighbouriser such an underrated role incidentally

So much more versatile and fun than it’s given credit for

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And not even mechanically useless! I would say!

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Mena, What's so frustrating for me is that I feel like you came into today saying 'this interaction with gimli looks bad for bella' and I proved to you a)it was the opposite and b) datisi and Ali have the interaction you think looks bad with the gimli speed wagon like ten posts apart, And your take away is still 'its more likely to be bella?'

Like, I was also partnered with imaginality, wasn't i? I don't know what's stopping you re-assessing.

Go back to those day one quotes.

I am pending re-examination of D1 and ideally D2, but yes, even in spite of all that I still think you’re more likely to be scum. Why? Because I just really think dats is town.

Like if this is the town-scum axis:

Town lld-Mith——datisi——————————Bella————————scum

Where I don’t feel super confident you’re scum but you’re just lower down

Then that maybe means the axis looks like this:

Town lld-Mith——datisi————Bella——————————————scum

So like, you move up relatively but I’m still more confident on dats being town

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Mena, did you discuss your target at all with Datisi?

yeah, in hindsight it wasn't the right play but I'm human so

in terms of target discussion, I told dats on D2 that as far as I was concerned we were choosing hood targets together or that at least he had a veto of anyone I suggested

yesterday I floated lld to him just in case scum!JK him would target me and let you shoot last night to keep up the pretence of a him/ythan team and he was supportive of the idea. then I wasn't around again until day break bc night was over the weekend and I was busy with life

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lol are we all just lurking this topic

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I'm just kinda being lazy myself because I feel like to really get a handle on it I need to re-read a lot of/maybe all of D1 and D2 and I just... don't want to, so I'm putting it off

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Tuesday one of my busy days, will be around tomorrow, planning to try to get some of the reread done to see if that helps

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sigh idk what to do other than read and I don't want to slog back through a load of reading

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Mith isn't 100% clear though. A lylo with mith and mena would be really tough for me.

okay I'll bite, I'm curious how you think mith isn't de facto 100% clear here

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I've heard I've had a prod, I'll catch up later today!