Mini Theme 2330 - A Questionable Almost-Normal Game - Postgame

[usesPython]

I will say, I miss your socialist roleplaying

I just ordered an expensive pair of dance boots so I've got to wait a day or two to stop feeling like a bougie douchebag. Once that wears off I can go full marxist propaganda again.

smh capitalist roader

VOTE: koba

[usesPython]

VOTE: Koba

Just to get it out of my system lol

nice try but i claim uncc miller VOTE: usespython

koba making this joke in a way that lets people laugh it off as a joke but would get a miller to say something feels kinda bad

[usesPython]

koba's voting us

Fixed

[usesPython]

VOTE: PC

Seriouser vote

[usesPython]

First ketchup makes an entrance post that's nai imo. Then makes a joke post followed by a question that could only generate fluff followed by another joke post then now followed by another fluff post. Looks like they are just posting to post or looking to fit in.

How is their posting meaningfully different from everyone else doing the same thing

[usesPython]

First ketchup makes an entrance post that's nai imo. Then makes a joke post followed by a question that could only generate fluff followed by another joke post then now followed by another fluff post. Looks like they are just posting to post or looking to fit in.

How is their posting meaningfully different from everyone else doing the same thing

The lack of rvs voting. Others were talking to people they knew and making rvs votes. Ketchup comes in no rvs voting and no talking to people they knew.

Alternative theory didn't talk to anyone they knew because those players hadn't posted yet

So far I'm happy with my vote.

ketchup rvs'd koba though?

[usesPython]

The slip makes the PC vote more reasonable though

UNVOTE: PC

[usesPython]

The slip makes the PC vote more reasonable though

UNVOTE: PC

not really judging you in a bad way but out of curiosity why would that mean you unvote?

PC's vote felt pretty forced but they have forced votes as town too so we were looking for a trigger that would cause them to meta you in 37 there

[usesPython]

The slip makes the PC vote more reasonable though

UNVOTE: PC

?

Elaborate

[usesPython]

I don’t think it was a lie, I believe it was an accident. I just think the accident is more likely to come from maf doing a half-hearted job of scumhunting than an awesomely excited very eager to catch all of the mafia townie (hi you’re going down mafalafs)

why do you think town are *less* likely to make accidents and slips? considering that we are the uninformed faction? (i am aware this is kinda the opposite question of the one I asked black, but humour me)

because we can go with our true feelings and our mind will pick up from where it left off probably whereas (I imagine, haven't got to try it yet) mafia can easily slip up over who they had decided to fake suspicions on

I did not expect the first Drew post of the game to come from someone else besides me lol

Town points for Ketchup, but will need Python for a proper analysis

(And ftr, for me personally I make sure my ducks are all in a row more as scum than town.......so Ketchup, I think you are looking at something NAI)

Drewpoints can only be redeemed by registered Drewidians, not sure if ketchup qualifies

We actually wouldn't give townpoints here simply cause we're associating this read with having an underdeveloped understanding of how scum act which wouldn't really change based on what PM they got

[usesPython]

I fake claim miller

[usesPython]

VOTE: LG

[usesPython]

Miller claim can probably be sorted late game after massclaim depending on how wack the setup gets (more wack = more likely)

[usesPython]

Yeah ngl thought koba was claiming informed miller or something there

[usesPython]

We're vibing with JV

[usesPython]

I fake claim miller

joke, or fake breadcrumb for if we ever get a guilty on them?

We true claim Cult Leader

[usesPython]

I fake claim miller

joke, or fake breadcrumb for if we ever get a guilty on them?

We true claim Cult Leader

Bruh

We'll trade you for it if you promise to cult us n1

[usesPython]

VOTE: lap

[usesPython]

Scumpoints to Ranger for magical {bracketed lists of mystery} that are backed up by a magical black box of "tens of thousands of games". That's not an argument, that's appeal to authority

Oh lmao the uncc part was a joke bc I highly expected more miller claims based on my role existing as that was where my mind went first with non normal, didn't think of the "lol random miller " angle

Yeah, I think anyone who took the uncc part seriously is scummy. There's no way to not parse that as an S-tier joke except looking for reasons to vote you

the team is usespython, titus, and JV wrap it up folks.

LG not responding to or acknowledging her wagon feels kinda bad

VOTE: LG

Okay i take back what I said

I do have a slightly tinfoil scum team of Black and JV right now

I was considering JV as well. Lots of noise posting and bandwagoning ketchup

Not vibing with these posts

[usesPython]

But this python

wdym

[usesPython]

But this python

wdym

Hu said Lap was town reading her last few games, but Lap(In the JOAT game) targeted Hu because he thought she was scummy

I don't think Lap is scum here

We don't have a problem with laps read on Hu Tao. Also don't see how Hu Tao being factually incorrect helps with reading Lap

[usesPython]

Are we missing something in the hu/lap dynamic other than lap scumread hu in the past but townreads them here

[usesPython]

Struggling to see how your reading something this easy to verify as a lie instead of Hu misremembering

[usesPython]

Struggling to see how your reading something this easy to verify as a lie instead of Hu misremembering

It was a very key moment in the game, Lap was adamant in not town reading Hu(speaking of the JOAT game)

Hu seemed to paint a different picture that was different than just 'misrembering'

Why do you think Hu would lie about that then

[usesPython]

Why do you think Hu would lie about that then

why not

Because it's trivially contradicted

[usesPython]

hey hu tao this mf spewed you town lol

Time to cult Hu Tao

[usesPython]

Struggling to see how your reading something this easy to verify as a lie instead of Hu misremembering

It was a very key moment in the game, Lap was adamant in not town reading Hu(speaking of the JOAT game)

Hu seemed to paint a different picture that was different than just 'misrembering'

Why do you think Hu would lie about that then

They could be scum, seems obvious where I am going with that, right?

Don't come at me with bad faith, python.

Ok but like what's the scum benefit of making a blatant and easily verifiable lie is where we're going with this

[usesPython]

Like our point is that Hu Tao lieing instead of misremembering makes no sense in both hu taown and scum tao games

[usesPython]

You never fucked up a meta read?

Then thats not lying that's misremembering

[usesPython]

I think we lost the plot, what was the point of this again?

[usesPython]

like im in their face like just saying the most random nonsense and their reaction is that its somehow normal for me to do that to them and i dont think u really do that unless ur scum who has no idea how to treat me and know im 100% town

We're not seeing it, 367 is just shitposting and the rest was pretty normal and coherent?

VOTE: usespython

Struggling to see how your reading something this easy to verify as a lie instead of Hu misremembering

It was a very key moment in the game, Lap was adamant in not town reading Hu(speaking of the JOAT game)

Hu seemed to paint a different picture that was different than just 'misrembering'

Why do you think Hu would lie about that then

why not

Why do you think Hu would lie about that then

why not

Because it's trivially contradicted

hey hu tao this mf spewed you town lol

[usesPython]

Like if people wanna shitpost with us we'll shitpost back

[usesPython]

I also had paired you with 2 other players earlier and you hadn't blinked an eye.

When did this happen

[usesPython]

And which posts should have pinged us

[usesPython]

I also had paired you with 2 other players earlier and you hadn't blinked an eye.

When did this happen

oh 314

Yeah we thought you were talking about page 15 in particular instead of the entire game, we just ignore those types until a spontaneous vibecheck hits us

[usesPython]

VOTE: Koba

Just to get it out of my system lol

nice try but i claim uncc miller VOTE: usespython

koba making this joke in a way that lets people laugh it off as a joke but would get a miller to say something feels kinda bad

no thats a lie you had literally been one of the few to discredit me shortly after the miller claim

VOTE: Koba

It's literally a page 1 vibecheck, feels like you're twisting yourself into circles to scumread us

[usesPython]

the team is usespython, titus, and JV wrap it up folks.

so you were so consumed by hu tao posts you completely missed this? since your whole next page was talking about hu tao.

The whole next page was consumed by sorting Drew, Hu Tao was just a proxy to do so

[usesPython]

the team is usespython, titus, and JV wrap it up folks.

so you were so consumed by hu tao posts you completely missed this? since your whole next page was talking about hu tao.

The whole next page was consumed by sorting Drew, Hu Tao was just a proxy to do so

nah you already admitted you saw it and ignored it because it was "shitposting" or whatever you said exactly i already forgot lol, no backtracking

We ignored 367 specifically, we still responded seriously to your serious posts

But this python

wdym

Hu said Lap was town reading her last few games, but Lap(In the JOAT game) targeted Hu because he thought she was scummy

I don't think Lap is scum here

same

VOTE: usespython

Struggling to see how your reading something this easy to verify as a lie instead of Hu misremembering

It was a very key moment in the game, Lap was adamant in not town reading Hu(speaking of the JOAT game)

Hu seemed to paint a different picture that was different than just 'misrembering'

Why do you think Hu would lie about that then

why not

Why do you think Hu would lie about that then

why not

Because it's trivially contradicted

hey hu tao this mf spewed you town lol

[usesPython]

i know i dont believe that someone who had allegedly a negative slant against us early on completely ignored when thrown into a list of scum

idk how to break it to you but a page 1 rvs vibecheck that got cleared up later when you hard claimed miller isn't gonna color our reads for the rest of the game

[usesPython]

VOTE: Koba

Just to get it out of my system lol

nice try but i claim uncc miller VOTE: usespython

koba making this joke in a way that lets people laugh it off as a joke but would get a miller to say something feels kinda bad

why would mafia benefit from knowing who's a miller? if i understand correctly, something like 'miller gunsmith' is possible? or is miller a role not a modifier

This is a setup where

Setup

1. Mafia Goon
   
   
2. Mafia Goon
   
   
3. Mafia Goon
   
   
4. Town Cop
   
   
5. Town Miller
   
   
6. Town Miller
   
   
7. Town Miller
   
   
8. Town Miller
   
   
9. Town Miller
   
   
10. Town Miller
    
    
11. Town Miller
    
    
12. Town Miller
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

is a realistic possibility that scum have to play around. In that example not claiming miller would be a pretty big scumclaim that scum could easily walk into

VOTE: Koba

Just to get it out of my system lol

nice try but i claim uncc miller VOTE: usespython

koba making this joke in a way that lets people laugh it off as a joke but would get a miller to say something feels kinda bad

no thats a lie you had literally been one of the few to discredit me shortly after the miller claim

VOTE: Koba

It's literally a page 1 vibecheck, feels like you're twisting yourself into circles to scumread us

I think voting the Miller is probably not the play

We see something we vote something

Ok well maybe this is where I drop that I think lap/titus/ranger is my current running solve

Explain?

---

JV/ketchup is a lot of noise

[usesPython]

Is top of your list most scummy or least scummy?

Which one was accompanied with a declaration of being a serious vote?

This misunderstanding feels like it should never have happened dumbtelling tbh.

Agreed

The usesPython & Dr Drew chat on page 15 is interesting. Python completely doesn't understand Drew's argument at all and is confused and pedantic. However, confidently wrong to me means big town energy.

That would imply we're wrong. There's a big difference between the claims "Hu Tao is actively lying for material scum benefit and therefore scum" (Which we don't think is happening here) and "Hu Tao misremembered which is more likely to come from scum" (Which we disagree with the premise and would want explained)

[usesPython]

you're right that is a possibility. but it just means my claim is completely NAI and means nothing, I just claimed as it is my go to way to treat randing miller, not that it somehow loops around all the way to being scum indicative.

Have you explained your lap/titus/ranger solve anywhere

[usesPython]

you're right that is a possibility. but it just means my claim is completely NAI and means nothing, I just claimed as it is my go to way to treat randing miller, not that it somehow loops around all the way to being scum indicative.

Have you explained your lap/titus/ranger solve anywhere

not really but it really boils down to that i think the surrounding players are townier

What makes them townier/scummier

[usesPython]

Is top of your list most scummy or least scummy?

Which one was accompanied with a declaration of being a serious vote?

This misunderstanding feels like it should never have happened dumbtelling tbh.

Agreed

Look, if Ranger immediately votes his top townread next to his list, how am I supposed to magically work out that he was joking? Yes he said 'lol' but that could have just been because he thought Koba was so obvious, or something else entirely.

Anyway, I think Ranger has conveniently posted a few more lists so she can subtly slip onto the Light wagon, while getting off Hu Tao after getting no support there. I don’t think Hu Tao had done nearly enough to warrant being Ranger’s top scum read for 9 pages. She opened with her standard 'Hi.’ and then a few other friendly posts, nothing scummy at all imo. Ranger’s reads list feels very forced, as though she knows she is endplayed into this line of play style but unsure who to say she suspects. The stopping of reads lists after getting to a point where she could vote Lightganski also feels oh so conveeeeeenient

You got the order wrong. Top of the list is town, bottom is scum.

[usesPython]

Ketchup what's your read on Hu Tao

[usesPython]

Do you have any other reads of Ranger that you disagree with/don't understand

[usesPython]

I am do try to be respectful of real life stuff, but do find Pythons lack of engagement odd here

Maybe I just miss them

We spent the past three days handling a lot more rl stuff than usual, we should be free for a few days until more rl hits

[usesPython]

It'd be really funny if everyone disappeared over the weekend so that we spend the entire phase active when no one else is on

[usesPython]

Ranger is Hu Tao getting townier in that list or is it just everyone else getting scummier?

[usesPython]

{Political Clout}
{Titus, Hu Tao}

P20

{Political Clout, Hu Tao}
{Titus}

P21

None of these people posted on page 21, what prompted the change?

[usesPython]

None of these people posted on page 21, what prompted the change?

P21 made me realize I had Hu Tao too low from my last readslist, I corrected it.

Like just the read percolating or did something in specific make you realize it

[usesPython]

It'd be really funny if everyone disappeared over the weekend so that we spend the entire phase active when no one else is on

This was a joke not an invitation

[usesPython]

Cuz I’m a wolf and we have a traitor I don’t wanna accidentally kill

No biggie, sure you can understand

it's okay i get it, playing to your win condition and all that <3

OMG WHAT IF THIS ISNT A LOVEHEART BUT IS ACTUALLY A LESS THAN 3; LIGHT IS HINTING THAT SHE KNOWS THERE ARE LESS THAN 3 MAFIA WHO KNOW EACH OTHERS IDENTITY

[usesPython]

We have an inno on Enchant, also really appreciate the quickhammer lining up so that daystart happens right as we start getting busy again very cool

[usesPython]

By the way.

I READ GAME.

until 25 page or so but

I did it

This is a lie

[usesPython]

I have an inno on Ranger fwiw. Figured she's hard to sort.

I was between Ranger, Black, and Python

We were gonna check Ranger but then Enchant replaced in

[usesPython]

Are we thinking all scum are godfathers?

It's either that or Ascetic/Commuter

[usesPython]

Mhm, wolves probably have Godfathers to any degree and their announcement is probably the thing one thing that isn't normal.

Godfathers are normal now.

Godfathers are normal

if announced beforehand

[usesPython]

MafiaScum read signup post challenge (99% impossible)

/in to mod

Game Name:

A Questionable Almost-Normal Game

Number of Players:

13

Backup/Co-Mod:

DragonEater70

Reviewer:

DragonEater70

Setup Link:

Closed

Player Experience:

here

Moderating Experience:

here

Current Modding Commitments:

None

Hydra Policy:

None this time, sorry.

Alt Policy:

Alts are not required to disclose.

Playerlist Policy:

WOTM in effect.

Other Restrictions:

I wouldn't recommend this to a new player, but I won't stop you.

Deadlines:

10-day days, 2-day nights

Prod Timer:

48/24

Is Daytalk enabled:

Yes

Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?

No

Is it possible your game has any procedurally bastard dynamics?

No

Requests for exceptions to site rules:

N/A

Other:

• This game was inspired by the questionable things you can do under normal guidelines thread. I recommend taking a look at that thread before you sign up for this game.
  
• There is no guarantee that this game contains any of the ideas in that thread. There is also no guarantee that this game doesn't contain any of the ideas in that thread.
  
• In accordance with Normal guidelines, I'm tagging this as Complex.
  
• Other than not having gone through a formal NRG review, which it most certainly wouldn't pass,
  the setup violates the letter of Normal guidelines in only one way.
  It does, however, violate the
  spirit
  of Normal guidelines in every way possible.
  
• I have pre-ins from: JacksonVirgo

[usesPython]

Also in the setup post

[usesPython]

Man. I was about to come into today upset at koba. Because Lap's claim sounded like it was there to find miller's. But I was also going to say koba was probably town for it because of Lap's role. But now I'm shook. Also why would scum even kill the Miller claim.

I'm upset Lap went out but it is what it is. I think Drew is town from that, so at least there's that.

I’ve made thoughts on other stuff I’ll share after school later, but just for now why does drew look good? Wouldn’t it have been normal to wait a day and let lap either claim some results or be killed overnight? Why rush to the hammer?

I like that ketchup is picking up on this because I also thought the way Drew handled Lap's claim was kinda scummy

If we assume all Godfather team then scum would be considering:

• Action Detector (Would see scum acted)
  
• Alien (role) (No kill after roleblock)
  
• (Dis)loyal Checker
  
• (Dis)loyal Cop
  
• Detective
  
• Godfather-Finder
  
• Follower
  
• (Dis)loyal Fruit Vendor
  
• Gunsmith
  
• Jailkeeper (No kill after roleblock)
  
• Motion Detector (Would see scum acted)
  
• Neapolitan
  
• Psychologist
  
• PT Cop
  
• Reporter (Would see scum acted)
  
• Roleblocker (No kill after roleblock)
  
• Role Cop (Godfather is Mafia only)
  
• Security Guard (Debatable)
  
• Tracker
  
• Traffic Analyst
  
• Watcher
  
• Masonizer

I don't think assuming everyone is cop is likelier for scum than assuming there's like Tracker or Role Cop or Traffic Analyst that would get a guilty on GF anyways

[usesPython]

You have like 2 days until i turn in lazy sludge, so if you have questions, go ask idk

Who's mafia

[usesPython]

Good point, but also not good point. It’s possible we had 2/3 of these roles and the godfathers were useless, but either way scum are incentivised to vote out the disloyal cop Laplacian asap

Why not just shoot lap at night?

[usesPython]

You have like 2 days until i turn in lazy sludge, so if you have questions, go ask idk

Who's mafia

titus 100000000000%

Why?

[usesPython]

random.org is the strongest scumhunter

[usesPython]

Enchant not using random.org is kinda sus

[usesPython]

We should run a game without activity replacements to see how strong the lurk meta would be

[usesPython]

We should run a game without activity replacements to see how strong the lurk meta would be

why you checked me

We don't know how to read you

[usesPython]

It's a reasonable reason

[usesPython]

The alternative is to policy you at some point in the game

[usesPython]

Good point, but also not good point. It’s possible we had 2/3 of these roles and the godfathers were useless, but either way scum are incentivised to vote out the disloyal cop Laplacian asap

Why not just shoot lap at night?

somewhat fair point I suppose. I think it’s slightly optimal to take lap out asap, especially in a questionable setup where there could be a follow the cop strat?

I think scum would just take the risk and shoot lap at night and that there's enough ambiguity that there's no way for scum to predict everyone being cop that everyone with d1 cop equity is probably town and everyone with d1 anti-cop equity is probably scum

[usesPython]

Good point, but also not good point. It’s possible we had 2/3 of these roles and the godfathers were useless, but either way scum are incentivised to vote out the disloyal cop Laplacian asap

Why not just shoot lap at night?

somewhat fair point I suppose. I think it’s slightly optimal to take lap out asap, especially in a questionable setup where there could be a follow the cop strat?

I think scum would just take the risk and shoot lap at night and that there's enough ambiguity that there's no way for scum to predict everyone being cop that everyone with d1 cop equity is probably town and everyone with d1 anti-cop equity is probably scum

help me out on what equity means?

high cop equity = you look like a cop
high anti-cop equity = you have posts that dont make sense if you're a cop

[usesPython]

I assume this is why you questioned my reasoning for suspecting the claim Drew? And I assume this is why the claim had Koba and yourself jump on it so quickly and confidently

Yes and yes...

I thought I was dead overnight cause I was so quick to think it was a fake claim

Why would mafia shoot the hammered

Mafia would know Drew is town so him suddenly being hammer happy after the claim would point to him being some kind of PR where Lap being Disloyal Cop wouldn't make sense to him.

[usesPython]

Cop equity tier list for EOD:
{JV/Koba}
{Drew}
{}
{PC}

[usesPython]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

disloyal does appear in the thread aliana linked.

UNVOTE:

I'm going to sleep on this.

layed down for bed could not sleep felt all wrong.

VOTE: laplacian

step on the gas.

VOTE: lap

VOTE: ganski

I wanted to see how that felt, not good. This better

The claim was cursed so I wanted to dip my toes in but no, they’re just town

In particular the belief -> disbelief is pretty anti-cop while JVs disbelief -> town despite the claim is very cop

[usesPython]

Like your first reaction to that claim should be "No way there's two whole ass ungated cops in a mini that's unbalanced as hell"

[usesPython]

We have an inno on Enchant, also really appreciate the quickhammer lining up so that daystart happens right as we start getting busy again very cool

I have an inno on Ranger fwiw. Figured she's hard to sort.

I was between Ranger, Black, and Python

We were gonna check Ranger but then Enchant replaced in

[usesPython]

Also we probably shouldn't have outed our results. I doubt we only had 1 cop to find scum.

Results are fine, we just shouldn't be outing modifiers

Disloyal Cops should be claiming innos on no results, Loyal Cops should be coming out if they have a no result, etc. Everything else just gives the useful cops cover to post their results

[usesPython]

I feel like the game can be nearly entirely broken by looking at the current claims compared to End of Day actions, as well as looking for the pre-heavy-cop play.

I’ll be busy today, yet plan to investigate tomorrow.

For now, I’ll say I’m sure Enchant is town.

I'd prefer to not specify why at this time. I believe it very strongly; he tops my town charts for good reason.

Tentative agree, we'll wait a bit before explaining

[usesPython]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

[usesPython]

Lap should have been the only real cop anyone making allusions to that should probably be voted

what do you mean by this

VOTE: ranger

Why did you unvote Lap if you're claiming Cop with this mentality then?

[usesPython]

ok please hold back your thoughts until Light claims, but to help people out who want to do analysis, here are all the cop claims in order of claim:

Titus:

inno on Ranger (1076+1089)

Doctor Drew:

inno on usesPython (1084)

JacksonVirgo:

inno on Enchant (1085)

Hu Tao:

inno on Political Clout (1094)

Ketchup777:

inno on Enchant (1122)

Black:

inno on Light_ganski (1125)

usesPython:

inno on Enchant (1127)

Enchant:

not a cop (1143)

Ranger:

inno on Koba+not a standard cop (1209+1213)

Political Clout:

inno on Titus (1228)

Light:

??

People that haven't been copped:

1. Drew
   
2. JV
   
3. Hu Tao
   
4. Ketchup
   
5. Black

[usesPython]

Ranger our problem with you this game is that we can't track your progression on a few key players. How is Hu Tao's early game different enough from her later posting to go from vibing scummiest to vibing genuine and town? Why is PC town?

[usesPython]

I doubt it's truly a Ganski/Ranger/PC solve but it sure feels like it

Sometimes it really is that easy

VOTE: PC

[usesPython]

Also

V/LA until the 13th, we should be able to post during that time except for the 5th and 13th

[usesPython]

Why ask this now rather than D1?

Lap got quickhammered, why do you think?

[usesPython]

And you've already explained Hu Tao before I think we just can't see the change in vibes in those posts which is our issue cause you're normally decently trackable even when we disagree

[usesPython]

Also

V/LA until the 13th, we should be able to post during that time except for the

5th

6th and 13th

[usesPython]

I fail to see how that answers my question

Every actual town Cop believed they were the only Cop on D1.

The scum clearly knew there was more than one Cop in the game, because they clearly have pre-planned Cop fakeclaims heading into D2. They had information we didn’t.

This information would be reflected in play, because every town player plays differently as a Cop thinking they’re the only Cop compared to how they would knowing the truth.

I believe it will be easy to inadvertently spot the scum TMI, where their cover slipped, and instead of playing as if they’re the only Cop, they accidentally showed they knew there were multiple cops.

I found a gigantic sign from Titus of this, as well as suspected signs elsewhere.

Counterpoint: scum figured out everyone's a cop after Drew and JV vagueposting/Titus claimed 3rd cop and scum are just people with bad cop equity like PC

[usesPython]

Why ask this now rather than D1?

Lap got quickhammered, why do you think?

Not until well after my last post. My reads were far from new at my last post, too. Why wait and not immediately ask?

It's called being asleep

[usesPython]

Like your first reaction to that claim should be "No way there's two whole ass ungated cops in a mini that's unbalanced as hell"

[usesPython]

Who's the miller claim?

Koba

[usesPython]

Like your first reaction to that claim should be "No way there's two whole ass ungated cops in a mini that's unbalanced as hell"

I'm still not following. if you're going off of what my reaction ought to be or should be then you're wrong.

Do you think having two ungated cops is a fair amount of power in a mini (without the godfathers since you wouldn't know that as town) compared to the possibility that Lap was just scum fakeclaiming?

[usesPython]

Yeah exactly, the lie would be the Disloyal Cop claim because from a setup spec POV it's instantly intuitively obvious having two ungated cops is way too much town power given that if they both survive to D3 that's like half the playerlist checked already

[usesPython]

What was the lie then

[usesPython]

Why do work when you can get other people to do it for you

[usesPython]

Yo I think PC is town

How so

[usesPython]

I think not seeing anything wrong with Laps cop claim as a cop is pretty bad

[usesPython]

Why do work when you can get other people to do it for you

because I'm not the one making stuff up about what I did.

We play from memory and misremember sometimes

[usesPython]

I'm sitting on that for a moment

How sure are you

[usesPython]

UNVOTE: PC

who do you want dead rn?

[usesPython]

Cops are the new VT. There's going to be sprinkled roles like the Disloyal but mostly they're the new VT, no point in coordinating anything really.

We'll wait until light claims to comment on this further

[usesPython]

VOTE: light

[usesPython]

Playing on this site has conditioned me, and others, to think an ungated Cop is already busted so multiple just digs into your brain as "this isn't right" regardless of a questionable game. There's a reason why I voted them, and then backed out when I came to my senses.

Oh yeah actually you behaved how I think makes sense actually.

Drew went all in, not taking the time to think, and quoting Kobas post about him being the hammer as a lame excuse to hammer. hmmm

If someone claims a role in hammer range that you "know" is bullshit then you're probably gonna hammer, this is also why Koba was pushing Drew to hammer

[usesPython]

I might just not have had the strength of cop put into perspective. But I can’t see how hammering a cop in a known suspicious setup can gain when we have over 7 days to sort the slot. it’s too risky.

cyclical point tho so im just waiting on light

Imagine if both cops live to d3 with 3 of the people they checked still alive. Thats 3 checks + 2 cops out of 9 people still alive, a 3/4 chance of hitting scum through pure POE

[usesPython]

Who was it that claimed receiving a messenger message?

also thanks for not killing me and whoever is the messenger and sent me that I love you too

in case anyone gets confused I made the latter of this up, I didn’t receive a message in the night

[usesPython]

I feel like the game can be nearly entirely broken by looking at the current claims compared to End of Day actions, as well as looking for the pre-heavy-cop play.

I’ll be busy today, yet plan to investigate tomorrow.

For now, I’ll say I’m sure Enchant is town.

I'd prefer to not specify why at this time. I believe it very strongly; he tops my town charts for good reason.

Tentative agree, we'll wait a bit before explaining

Ok cool light claimed not vanilla. Enchant is conftown because they're the only Vanilla Townie

[usesPython]

why is black voting me if she has an inno on me?

Godfather game

[usesPython]

I feel like the game can be nearly entirely broken by looking at the current claims compared to End of Day actions, as well as looking for the pre-heavy-cop play.

I’ll be busy today, yet plan to investigate tomorrow.

For now, I’ll say I’m sure Enchant is town.

I'd prefer to not specify why at this time. I believe it very strongly; he tops my town charts for good reason.

Tentative agree, we'll wait a bit before explaining

Ok cool light claimed not vanilla. Enchant is conftown because they're the only Vanilla Townie

Complex normals don’t need a confirmed VT anymore

The game must contain at least one Vanilla Townie (allowed names include: Townie, Vanilla Townie, Townsperson, Citizen). A sample Role PM for the Vanilla Townie must be included in the rules post.

[usesPython]

I SWEAR READING COMPLEX RULES IS MORE COMPLEX THAN PLAYING COMPLEX GAMES.

This is true

[usesPython]

Complex Games may only use the roles and modifiers listed above.
Roles may be hybrid. In Complex Games, some players should be Vanilla Townies - although there is not a hard floor here - and there is no limit on roles and modifiers.
Serial Killers are not allowed in Micro games. They are allowed in Mini games but must be announced during signups. They are allowed in Larges and do not require an announcement. Multiball - when there are two or more Mafia factions - is allowed in Large games only, and requires an announcement.
Flavor should not impact gameplay.
Experimental roles are allowed in Complex Games - the Experimental Role List has no substantial effect on gameplay but indicates roles that are currently being "trialed" for Normal Games. The Experimental Role List should be expected to change.

Roles may not be hybrid. In Simple Games, most players should be Vanilla Townies - although there is not a hard floor here - and non-Vanilla roles must have one role and a maximum of one modifier.

By that logic even simple normals can have 0 VTs, I think Complex Normals still need at least one VT to be legal?

[usesPython]

@mod would no VTs violate normal regulations?

As far as I am aware, all Normal games require some VTs.

Thank you!

So the most likely rule break is godfathers, but it’s possible we have no VTs

If we have no VTs then Enchant is still mechanically globally conftown from the 3 cop innos on him by JV/Python/Ketchup since you'd need to announce Godfather if the rulebreak was 0 VTs

[usesPython]

“ Roles may be hybrid. In Complex Games, some players should be Vanilla Townies - although there is not a hard floor here - and there is no limit on roles and modifiers.”

Jesus

Complex Games may only use the roles and modifiers listed above.
Roles may be hybrid. In Complex Games, some players should be Vanilla Townies - although there is not a hard floor here - and there is no limit on roles and modifiers.
Serial Killers are not allowed in Micro games. They are allowed in Mini games but must be announced during signups. They are allowed in Larges and do not require an announcement. Multiball - when there are two or more Mafia factions - is allowed in Large games only, and requires an announcement.
Flavor should not impact gameplay.
Experimental roles are allowed in Complex Games - the Experimental Role List has no substantial effect on gameplay but indicates roles that are currently being "trialed" for Normal Games. The Experimental Role List should be expected to change.

Roles may not be hybrid. In Simple Games, most players should be Vanilla Townies - although there is not a hard floor here - and non-Vanilla roles must have one role and a maximum of one modifier.

By that logic even simple normals can have 0 VTs, I think Complex Normals still need at least one VT to be legal?

[usesPython]

1. A VT isn’t confirmed as per complex normal ruling
2. Dragon said that normals would have at least one VT, as a mod he’d know the setup. He wouldn’t say that if there were none

For 1 the same wording is used on both Simple, Regular, and Complex Normal page. One VT is still mandatory

[usesPython]

I'm sitting on that for a moment

How sure are you

70/30

UNVOTE: PC

who do you want dead rn?

I doubt it's truly a Ganski/Ranger/PC solve but it sure feels like it

I doubt it's truly a Ganski/Ranger/PC solve but it sure feels like it

Sometimes it really is that easy

VOTE: PC

the jacksonvirgo pocket spews as informed scum.

JV is obvtown

[usesPython]

doesn't explain why you are letting jv dictate your actions.

We compensate for our low read accuracy by being pretty good at finding a few people town and then sheeping them, in this case especially we're content to shoot our other scumreads given that we don't have the time to read or case much

[usesPython]

Does it mean you will sheep me too

Your reads are Python tier <3

[usesPython]

doesn't explain why you are letting jv dictate your actions.

We compensate for our low read accuracy by being pretty good at finding a few people town and then sheeping them, in this case especially we're content to shoot our other scumreads given that we don't have the time to read or case much

this would make sense if you thought jv had a high read accuracy otherwise it makes less than no sense.

JV has a higher read accuracy than us

[usesPython]

doesn't explain why you are letting jv dictate your actions.

We compensate for our low read accuracy by being pretty good at finding a few people town and then sheeping them, in this case especially we're content to shoot our other scumreads given that we don't have the time to read or case much

this would make sense if you thought jv had a high read accuracy otherwise it makes less than no sense.

JV has a higher read accuracy than us

I’m not entirely convinced you believe this

Do you think you have worse read accuracy than us this game?

[usesPython]

Then we don't really get the issue here

[usesPython]

I’m just recalling a recent game where I had the arguably worst reads, that would be hard defending you when you were a wolf and you trust in my reads over your own?

We're about to board a plane rn but the DE marathon setup game that just finished had us hard TR Ranger as town when she was also fooled by our play in the frenemies game even harder if you wanna go look at that

[usesPython]

and trusted her accuracy over ours which is why we argued for our lim over rangers d1 that game due to an assassination mechanic

[usesPython]

like we don't begrudge people not being able to catch us as scum cause we generally already assume people can't catch us as scum (and experience shows this to be generally true)

[usesPython]

Wake up

VOTE: Black

Sleep

[usesPython]

Also why are people looking for consolidation wagons when there's 7 days until the deadline

[usesPython]

Actually

VOTE: ketchup

[usesPython]

Average crumbing fan vs average "my plays make sense as soon as you know my role" enjoyer (This is why we complained about Koba's Miller claim happening the way it did)

[usesPython]

We'll vibe check Black when we wake up, no hammers until then please

[usesPython]

vibecheck wise Black is obvtown d1 cause of the synesthesia-type feeling of her posts being a knife that we associate with her town games

d2 posting is ass but we're willing to ignore it and trust

[usesPython]

I don’t want Ganski anymore, I’m also gone for the night. Where’s the consolidation wagon? I’m not doing Titus

Why not light?

[usesPython]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

If you're a modified cop check who you want to check

If you're a regular cop check according to the list and pretend you checked who you wanted to check unless you get a guilty/no result on the person you checked in the list

[usesPython]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

[usesPython]

Gamestate wise several people having pretty weak cop equity implies Drew is town since if scum had full knowledge of the setup we'd expect that not to be there

[usesPython]

I don’t want Ganski anymore, I’m also gone for the night. Where’s the consolidation wagon? I’m not doing Titus

Why not light?

Also new thoughts on PC since you thought they were a distraction for light

[usesPython]

Is there a PoE solve yet? Python/JV/Drew/Enchant, 11 alive so need 6 townies

[usesPython]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

If you're a modified cop check who you want to check

If you're a regular cop check according to the list and pretend you checked who you wanted to check unless you get a guilty/no result on the person you checked in the list

'pretend you checked who you wanted to check'; how will that work? do we only speak up if we didn’t get an inno and otherwise remain silent?

If we were Town Cop and would want to check Koba as a Disloyal Town Cop we'd Town Cop Black (according to the list) and say we have an inno on Koba

This lets the modifier cops post their results without immediately being obvious from deviating from the list while still letting them check who they want to check. If someone flips Town Cop later in the game it means they got an inno on the person in the list (since otherwise they'd have come out as Town Cop with a guilty/no result)

[usesPython]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

As i said at some point before, it’s possible Drew feared a bodyguard or something that would allow Lap to get a verifiable cop result off

Trading one scum to avoid a cop check is a very bad trade, and a setup with ungated disloyal cop + doctor just straight up wouldn't fly for balance reasons

[usesPython]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

Pretend the setup is

Setup

1. Mafia Godfather
   
   
2. Mafia Godfather
   
   
3. Mafia Godfather
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Vanilla Townie
   
   
6. Vanilla Townie
   
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

What does scum Drew believably claim that lets him get away with immediately believing that Lap is fake claiming while also being a balanced questionable setup

[usesPython]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

Also same question we asked Ketchup, why not just shoot Lap at night?

[usesPython]

Drew's vote gives me pause because he's always talking about dancing with me and stuff but this game he hasn't shown much interest in interacting with me at all. My thoughts about his EoD behavior are pretty typical of me to have so I'm not sure why that is pushing the needle for him

You're too hung up on dayplay here. Drew also doesn't pass our mountainous vibecheck, it's just that his play around the setup strongly suggests he's town

[usesPython]

I'm sorry I don't understand. Why would scum!Drew think this is the setup?

The exact setup doesn't as long as scum don't know it's an all cop game, do you think the gamestate supports this or not?

[usesPython]

I'm sorry I don't understand. Why would scum!Drew think this is the setup?

The exact setup doesn't as long as scum don't know it's an all cop game, do you think the gamestate supports this or not?

As in if scum knew it was all cops we'd expect almost everyone to have pretty decent cop equity ready to go instead of some people barely looking like cops

[usesPython]

I'm sorry I don't understand. Why would scum!Drew think this is the setup?

The exact setup doesn't as long as scum don't know it's an all cop game, do you think the gamestate supports this or not?

I have no clue what the gamestate supports

What does that even mean

I think if the scumteam has godfathers and they see a Disloyal Cop claim then they would probably expect there to be other ways to catch them, right?

Our point isn't if town has other ways of catching Godfathers but that Drew explicitly played d1 EOD as a Cop would and that the gamestate doesn't support the belief that scum Drew would know to aggressively take heat and fake cop here over just letting the opportunity pass and blasting Lap at night

Scum Drew would specifically need to know everyone's a cop in order for his EOD play to make sense as scum, which is the only mechanical question that's necessary to sort Drew

[usesPython]

We're resolving the question of if scum knew about everyone being cop d1 by looking at the overall picture of the cop claims. There's enough people with anti-cop or weak cop equity that to us it doesn't make sense for that to be happening if scum were informed about the cops in advance since they'd know to fake cop and the overall average quality of cop claims would be higher

[usesPython]

I'm confused why Drew's reaction couldn't have come from someone that doesn't know we're all cops. I'm not trying to play dumb I legitimately don't get it. Please explain

Imagine if Koba flipped VT (or any other role that wouldn't make everyone think everyone is a cop), how does Drew survive d2?

Answer: Either not at all or with great difficulty

Imagine if Drew didn't hammer and we wagoned someone d1 who flips VT (or any other role that wouldn't make everyone think everyone is a cop) and then Lap gets shot at night (with no clears since they die n1), how does Drew survive d2?

Answer: Easily

In order for Drew aggressively pushing Lap after the claim to make sense he'd specifically need to know it's safe to pretend to be a Cop pushing a fakeclaim and that there'd be enough Cop flips by the start of day 2 that people would assume something's up and predict the Godfathers. Without the two cop flips happening his play doesn't make any sense from a survival perspective and the only way he'd know that people would see two cop flips and predict the setup as scum is if he knew everyone was a cop

[usesPython]

More specifically:

1. He can only believably push Lap if people believe his cop claim and
   
2. The only way people would believe his cop claim as scum from a balance perspective would be if Drew being cop didn't affect the scumteam, which would require people to accept a GF game, which would require people to realise some bullshit is happening from seeing 2 cop flips, a cop claim, and their cop PM. This would require scum to know everyone is a cop instead of there being like tracker/watcher/rolecop/whatever that would catch Godfathers instead

[usesPython]

Like you're coming at it from the perspective of knowing you're cop and seeing the two cop flips, scum would only have the knowledge that Lap is probably trueclaiming Disloyal Cop

[usesPython]

Like you're coming at it from the perspective of knowing you're cop and seeing the two cop flips, scum would only have the knowledge that Lap is probably trueclaiming Disloyal Cop

This is a townslip from Black

[usesPython]

We don't want Drew or Black here

[usesPython]

Like you're coming at it from the perspective of knowing you're cop and seeing the two cop flips, scum would only have the knowledge that Lap is probably trueclaiming Disloyal Cop

This is a townslip from Black

How

Feels like if you were scum you'd understand our argument faster from sheer lived experience, it taking this long for you to get our position indicates that you had to throw away your established setup knowledge (You're cop, two cops flipped, godfather game, etc.) to create an entire new setup where you have to view the game from what would be scum!Drews knowledge that you would also have as scum (Lap is Disloyal Cop, Town don't know about Godfathers, setup is a big question mark)

[usesPython]

I'm confused why Drew's reaction couldn't have come from someone that doesn't know we're all cops. I'm not trying to play dumb I legitimately don't get it. Please explain

Imagine if Koba flipped VT (or any other role that wouldn't make everyone think everyone is a cop), how does Drew survive d2?

Answer: Either not at all or with great difficulty

Imagine if Drew didn't hammer and we wagoned someone d1 who flips VT (or any other role that wouldn't make everyone think everyone is a cop) and then Lap gets shot at night (with no clears since they die n1), how does Drew survive d2?

Answer: Easily

In order for Drew aggressively pushing Lap after the claim to make sense he'd specifically need to know it's safe to pretend to be a Cop pushing a fakeclaim and that there'd be enough Cop flips by the start of day 2 that people would assume something's up and predict the Godfathers. Without the two cop flips happening his play doesn't make any sense from a survival perspective and the only way he'd know that people would see two cop flips and predict the setup as scum is if he knew everyone was a cop

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying. I feel like trading one scum in order to kill the Disloyal Cop would probably be a good move, but even then there's no guarantee that everyone just pushes Drew D2. There's a real possibility he could push a Lap fade through and still survive D2

Sure but it's a lot riskier than just shooting Lap at night for the benefit of maybe hitting an extra PR instead of being forced to shoot Lap, the cost/benefit doesn't add up

[usesPython]

Ranger idk where you're getting the idea we townread you, we've been pretty clear about not townreading you

[usesPython]

Also there's 7 days on the deadline, we have time to build support for our wagons. What's with the rush?

[usesPython]

I'm sorry I don't understand. Why would scum!Drew think this is the setup?

The exact setup doesn't as long as scum don't know it's an all cop game, do you think the gamestate supports this or not?

Tbh if you have 3 godfathers it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to figure out that alianna might troll and give town multiple cops

As opposed to trolling mafia by giving town one of the roles that bypass Godfather? Pretty sure we posted a list of those at some point

[usesPython]

Reading over the EoD stuff again I think Drew's reaction to Lap's claim makes a lot of sense in a scum!Drew world. If scum has one or multiple godfathers then Lap's role probably scared the shit out of them to the point where they really wanted that fade to go through

This would require scum Drew to not only expect Disloyal Cop to be the designated cop type but also expect that everyone's some type of Cop (Since otherwise if not he'd be claiming the second ungated cop in a mini which would be an incredibly tough sell compared to just shooting Lap at night)

If Drew is a godfather wouldn't he see the disloyal cop as the biggest threat to him and try to convince others to push the wagon through like he did?

Pretend the setup is

Setup

1. Mafia Godfather
   
   
2. Mafia Godfather
   
   
3. Mafia Godfather
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Vanilla Townie
   
   
6. Vanilla Townie
   
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

What does scum Drew believably claim that lets him get away with immediately believing that Lap is fake claiming while also being a balanced questionable setup

Also there’s like no way that’s the setup what?? Why would scum have godfathers if we have a disloyal cop and nothing else, it’s just like having a cop on normal scum. And why would we have a setup with only one town PR that can easily be killed?? You’re not making any sense

VOTE: usesPython

so close to my mission of voting everyone, coming for you Hu Tao

The setup was an example one to illustrate why Drew claiming cop as scum believably only works in a full cop game, we literally had a mass claim where everyone claimed cop

[usesPython]

Also why are people looking for consolidation wagons when there's 7 days until the deadline

they say inbetween voting 2 people in the posts before/after this

We didn't want a hammer yet and we didn't like Blacks d2 posting, what is the issue

[usesPython]

Ranger idk where you're getting the idea we townread you, we've been pretty clear about not townreading you

You voted Titus, and haven’t voted us. In fact, you've defended me.

Your actions say you are treating us as town.

We never voted titus and I don't remember us defending you d2 this game

[usesPython]

We were also pretty critical of you d1 though we kept that somewhat close to our chest so not sure if it came across then

[usesPython]

Voting you out of those options rather than any of {PC, light_ganski, Titus} is an odd choice, as there’s no support for it and nobody usesPython believes town suspected you.

This is also wrong given that JVs shown willingness to vote for ketchup

[usesPython]

Ranger what's your read on ketchup

[usesPython]

Proposed cop plan if Light gets hammered:

Ketchup+Jackson—> cop Hu Tao
Hu Tao+Black—> cop Jackson
Ranger+Titus—> cop Doctor Drew
usesPython+Doctor Drew —>cop Black
Political Clout—> cop Ketchup

If you're a modified cop check who you want to check

If you're a regular cop check according to the list and pretend you checked who you wanted to check unless you get a guilty/no result on the person you checked in the list

'pretend you checked who you wanted to check'; how will that work? do we only speak up if we didn’t get an inno and otherwise remain silent?

If we were Town Cop and would want to check Koba as a Disloyal Town Cop we'd Town Cop Black (according to the list) and say we have an inno on Koba

This lets the modifier cops post their results without immediately being obvious from deviating from the list while still letting them check who they want to check. If someone flips Town Cop later in the game it means they got an inno on the person in the list (since otherwise they'd have come out as Town Cop with a guilty/no result)

Ok, but say modifier cops hold back results until Day 4. if we haven’t got a maf out yet, we‘ll be at 4vs3 ELO (assuming 3 scum) and now we don’t have enough time to properly dissect a CC. won’t this just lead to chaos

You get CCs out the way the day before ELO, the same thing would be happening even without this strat

[usesPython]

"We don't like Blacks posting"

"Sounds like a consolidation wagon"

??? Why are people townreading ketchup again?

[usesPython]

The day before ELO will be Day 3 (9 people alive), assuming we don’t get a scum here. So then whats the point of everyone claiming results if real modifier cops have to make it clear they’re real anyway?

This assumes we hit town here

[usesPython]

"We don't like Blacks posting"

"Sounds like a consolidation wagon"

??? Why are people townreading ketchup again?

Ops on 1454? I feel like cant get much townier than this

The only thing we'd consider a cop crumb is 516 but given that you also crumbed VT like 3 times and Bulletproof in 493 it raises the question of what the point of the crumbs even were given that you could have believably claimed not-cop and pointed to crumbs

[usesPython]

It's why we place a lot more stock in gameplay making sense after the claim like JV/Drew than we do just crumbing

[usesPython]

Also you just keep ignoring that it’s plausible we had some kind of semi-gated PR that could protect Laplacian night 1.

Again, trading a scum member to prevent a green check is a bad trade when you can just not do that and shoot BG, then Lap and then their check instead

[usesPython]

do you think I have an obligation to point out fake crumbs if I’m mafia?

You apparently thought they made your cop claim look more believable

[usesPython]

Also you just keep ignoring that it’s plausible we had some kind of semi-gated PR that could protect Laplacian night 1.

Again, trading a scum member to prevent a green check is a bad trade when you can just not do that and shoot BG, then Lap and then their check instead

I seriously doubt the person who hammers a somewhat strange-looking claim is always voted off the next day. So it’s not really trading a scum member. how about if there’s like a 2-shot doctor? If you don’t push Lap you’re in deep trouble. Scum!Drew was in a rush though. He didn’t have much time to consider all possible scenarios and likely just thought fading Lap seemed safest and most optimal in the heat of the moment.

2-shot Doctor with an ungated cop would never pass balance

Source: Our lost sanity in Normal Idea Mafia where it got randed

[usesPython]

Like the most townsided follow the cop setup that would ever pass is 1-shot doctor, more realistically 1-shot BG. Most of the time though it's just gonna be a Cop with no protectives, Macho Cop if you want protectives in the setup

[usesPython]

VOTE: Titus

I wouldn't mind this though

@python care to join me?

Why is Titus scum, so far we've only seen the Ranger argument that hinges on scum being informed about the setup

[usesPython]

It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

[usesPython]

[quote=usesPython post_id=14115652 post_num=1786 time=<a href="tel:1709836206" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">1709836206</a> user_id=36963]
It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

In the rules post I literally just quoted Alianna said it violates the spirit of Normal games in every way possible.?.?.?.?..
[/quote]I mean you're wrong by definition since this setup seems to just be godfathers vs a disloyal cop, a bunch of useless cops, a named townie, and then an unspecified but low amount of modifier cops which would absolutely pass normal review if it was reflavored as something like

Normal Version

1. Mafia Goon
   
   
2. Mafia Goon
   
   
3. Mafia Goon
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Town Rolecop
   (Simulates a Simple/Complex Cop in this setup)
   
6. Town Activated Innocent Child
   (The VT slot here)
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

This is functionally equivalent to the setup we're in outside of the cop claim stuff and would pass review without much issue, therefore it doesn't violate balance considerations

[usesPython]

@Python, how far into the night did you submit your cop night action?

When we woke up and saw enchant replaced in, why? (Also check that this isn't falling under breaking the rules in the same vein as asking for details about role PMs or other mod communication before you go further cause this sounds pretty angleshooty)

[usesPython]

quoting messed up so copying:

VT is very much not equivalent to an activated innocent child. how do you know scum wouldn’t have tried to fakeclaim VT? maybe Python is informed scum: informed that there is only one VT

Completely irrelevant since both would pass the NRG and also misses the point

[usesPython]

Like ketchup it feels like all these posts are just made to go "oh well it doesn't perfectly 100% exactly match what's happening" instead of actually engaging with the argument being made here

[usesPython]

Like ketchup it feels like all these posts are just made to go "oh well it doesn't perfectly 100% exactly match what's happening" instead of actually engaging with the argument being made here

or you’re just reeling because I’m closing in on you

ops on scum being informed? (Take 5)

For every post you quote where you actually engage with our argument we can quote 3 where you go "well um ackshually"

[usesPython]

Like if you wanna engage with our arguments we can do that, but you gotta make that first step

[usesPython]

quoting messed up so copying:

VT is very much not equivalent to an activated innocent child. how do you know scum wouldn’t have tried to fakeclaim VT? maybe Python is informed scum: informed that there is only one VT

Also there is literally only one VT in this setup it's Enchant everyone else claimed some type of Cop what are you even talking about

[usesPython]

Like if you wanna engage with our arguments we can do that, but you gotta make that first step

I’m not really ignoring your arguments, I’m just constantly calling them into scrutiny when I keep noticing inconsistencies

Yeah see this is what we mean, latest example how relevant is it that the VT here doesn't map 1 to 1 to an activated IC when the actual question at hand is would a similar setup pass nrg on balance concerns

[usesPython]

Like if you wanna engage with our arguments we can do that, but you gotta make that first step

I’m not really ignoring your arguments, I’m just constantly calling them into scrutiny when I keep noticing inconsistencies

Yeah see this is what we mean, latest example how relevant is it that the VT here doesn't map 1 to 1 to an activated IC when the actual question at hand is would a similar setup pass nrg on balance concerns

But I’m telling you that that’s not a similar setup (at least on the innocent child bit) so is a null point

Look idk what you want from us, we made a similar normal-legal setup in like 2 minutes and decided to make the Enchant slot Activated IC cause it fit the similar function of "this slot is basically confirmed"

[usesPython]

Named Townie is not normal legal unless they changed that in the recent normal rework which is why we didnt use it

[usesPython]

Since we were making an example setup that would pass nrg, which requires the roles to be Normal

[usesPython]

Named Townie is not normal legal unless they changed that in the recent normal rework which is why we didnt use it

He’s saying it acts as one, which it doesn’t.

wdym, Enchant slot is functionally a Named Townie in this setup

[usesPython]

Named Townie is not normal legal unless they changed that in the recent normal rework which is why we didnt use it

me feels something like a Backup Jailkeeper would be a better named townie example

See that would be cool if we thought of that earlier, except we didnt

[usesPython]

Ketchup your logic doesn't follow because Enchant being the only VT is public knowledge

[usesPython]

Your argument hinges that we're scum cause informed of VT but what is the meaningful distinction you're making of "Assuming only 1 VT cause of massclaim" vs "Assuming only 1 VT cause informed"

[usesPython]

ok that argument makes more sense and idk what to tell you other than that we made the example setup phoneposting in two minutes from memory as an example for illustrative purposes and that sometimes roles don't transfer over perfectly when you're trying to make a quick normal legal setup

[usesPython]

Like yes, Disloyal Cop/Vanilla Cop/Backup Friendly Neighbor would be a more accurate representation of the setup, we just didn't think to make it cause 100% accuracy wasn't what we cared about

[usesPython]

Like our mindset was "Disloyal Cop/Rolecop/Activated IC is kinda townsided but it'd still pass NRG, send it"

[usesPython]

Because the argument wasn't "Is this alternate setup a 1to1 representation of this game" but "Would this game pass balance" which is what we were arguing about

[usesPython]

Im saying that it wasn’t guaranteed that we would get into a massclaim where Enchant was the only VT. I thought this would be clear, and so you would strive to find some other equivalent role than activated innocent child. Yet you seem to think that Enchant would always be confirmable at some point, which suggests you know something town don’t

Wait no this doesn't make sense, the only way massclaim happens without Enchant being only VT claim is if scum claim VT which for your argument would imply we can't be informed?

[usesPython]

Since you're arguing that scum have to be informed to know to claim VT?

[usesPython]

Which would then cause Enchant to be a Named Townie instead of an IC

[usesPython]

Can you like break down what Informed information would let someone be informed Enchant is always confirmable

[usesPython]

No we just straight up didn't get the argument being made but we also just spent the past 3 pages arguing past each other until you suddenly made a semi-understandable post so we thought we missed something again

[usesPython]

Can you like break down what Informed information would let someone be informed Enchant is always confirmable

Being informed that there is only one VT in the setup, combined with agreeing in scum PT that none of you would claim VT, would make it likely there is only one VT claim. You knowingly create an Innocent Child but it might be preferable to creating a pool of claimed VTs to shoot in containing at least 50% mafia

I mean outside of forcing 1v1s the only reason for scum to claim anything but Cop is by accident from not knowing the setup for exactly that reason (creating an IC and then shooting them is better numbers-wise than 50% chance of creating an IC if you lose the 1v1 and 100% chance of dying after that even if you win the 1v1)

[usesPython]

hmm actually yeah I can see how that'd make you think we're informed

UNVOTE: ketchup

[usesPython]

Ketchup you think scum were informed about the setup, if they werent who do you think fits the bill for "figured it out d2"

[usesPython]

Man it's weird being on the Ranger Rollercoaster of Reads from the other side, the whiplash from Ketchup making a seeming shitpush to having a coherent point is wild

[usesPython]

Ketchup you think scum were informed about the setup, if they werent who do you think fits the bill for "figured it out d2"

Do you mean figured it out before d2, or during d2?

Like at or post koba flip