Shell Game (Day 4)

[Shello and Goodbye]

wolmf >:) - ydra

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no one is allowed to push or suspect me until skitter is back btw - ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

I will RVS as long as I feel like it, thanks.

What even makes you so sure it was RVS though?

returning to thread with the best read of this emoji felt townie to me

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What has snagged your attention so far?

actiondan is interesting to me. feel safe leaning town for now i think although scum is possible

pooky a little towny

dunn a little towny although his willingness to elaborate so much on reads already was quite surprising to me. i don't think it's scummy though, just surprising

y'all i think feel eager to dig into things which is probably a good enough sign for now that id rather let you do that, although i think the point on me is one that feels misapplied

if i were to put a bet on a scum rn i think id guess STD. that's based on almost nothing however id still take the pookybucks

firebagel feels likely to be readable given time so not worried there rn

i’m going to go against the grain and say i think that this could be town fire (the game mod already laughing at me)

after having just finished a game where the opening that fire had was p fluffy/sociable like it was here, more than games prior, i feel like they would be a little more hesitant to indulge in that sort of posting. especially with people who were watching it happen it feels like it invites attention that could just be ignored

also i kind of think that this is a little sloppy to post as wolf. idr who in thread said actiondan read was like nothingness but the hedginess is obvious and i feel like idk. fire would probably… be a bit more something.

something something wolves can play sloppy too i guess said half heartedly

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and i don’t inherently think that the people calling it out (otoh morph and dunn and i think one other person) are inherently wolfy for jumping on it because yeah recency. i kind of liked morphs posting to this point a bit and i think dunnstral a bit more because he feels different than midsummer to me

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(this is all ydra obviously lol)

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i don’t really like luke’s intro and posts on 5-6 idk why i haven’t played with him for a while so it could be that but they feel off to the vibes of the thread

[Shello and Goodbye]

Things of note:

Ydra's entrance vibed town for me.

I am liking Oblivion's questions at Firebagel, and am not liking firebagel's responses. But I think that I am liking Oblivions questions more then I am disliking bagel's responses.

I am also surprised by the fireisredsir fluff, and also surprised at the number of reads he churned out in 116 in response to being called out for fluff.

if i had to take a crack at it i think it’s the last part - it feels silly that he reiterated how surprised he felt as if it were a big deal and the word churned is ?_? to me here lol

[Shello and Goodbye]

i think spiffeh is the towniest player so far i liked 149 for the part about meta

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To those who have expressed town reads on it, can it ask for a deeper look into the why behind those sentiments from each of you, for the purpose of its mental models?

For CSF, can you explain which of the questions it asked gave that reaction and why?

your questions feel like you're trying to probe but are latching onto the wrong things in a way that feels +scum. It's mostly gut but I'll try to articulate-

Spoiler:

My thoughts so far:

Sunflower in post 13 struck me the wrong way as I wasn't expecting that post from fireisredsir, and then they had a lot of filler type posts. They then call me towny and I'm not sure what they are basing that off of either with the 4 posts I had before.

ActionDan's post 86 rubs me the wrong way because I don't agree and don't know how they reached their conclusions. Perhaps they can explain.

It... is a little concerned by this. Ignoring the part about Sunflower, what part of ActionDan's posting was strangely reached to you? This slot is calling the player who scumclaimed as an opening scum, which it thinks doesn't need much explination? Certainly there's ways to end up on either side of that read but explaining?

You appear to be an experienced player, can you explain to it why this read in particular is rubbing you the wrong way for not explaining their conclusions when half of it appears somewhat Face Value to it?

For this one, dunnstral already gave a different read on sunflower, which was 50% of Dan's list.

And like... What's the harm in asking Dan to articulate reasons when the game is this early? Even if the answer may be obvious to you.

It turns out the answer probably wasn't what you expected. What did you make of that btw?

Spoiler:

I will RVS as long as I feel like it, thanks.

What even makes you so sure it was RVS though?

Can you explain why you are taking a hostile/adversarial position to this line of inquery? It has a hard time believing you can't see that your entrance is above the line of suspicious and overtly drawing attention, so it wants to understand what the motivation of your doing this is? What do you aim to accomplish with this tact?

Did you miss posts 28 and 30 in your read through?

Setting that aside though, I don't really agree that the post is hostile

It looked at Dunn's post and thought that his writing about Action Dan felt contrived in a way as to make his arguments, and so wanted to pick at him to determine where he was coming from. It feels like it is worth attacking this to understand his approach.

It feels that Bagel's response to being poked by Morph was absolutely defensive/hostile over responsive, which it feels was confirmed by how it then responded to it by deflecting its question with more questions. To this point, its question still hasn't been answered.

In truth, its questions are designed to develop a mental model of players at this point. To see how they respond to questions about their approach to the game, so it can get a baseline to read them from later.

What confuses it is that you are saying that asking questions towards players to garner their intent is pro-town but call its questioning anti-town, despite it being pretty clear and apparent that it is asking questions to determine how people think and approach the game state. It can't help but wonder if this is because it prefers to ask questions from aggressors to determine their mindset instead of asking questions from those in already defensive positions who have their guard up?

i think this probably comes from town too or it’s Good Enough for me for now its the least relevant part of the post but the self reflection feels towny.

i’m less sure about csf in this interaction but it feels like there’s a discrepancy in how these two approach questioning and handle people in general and i don’t think (?) csf was approaching oblivion in “bad faith”

[Shello and Goodbye]

If it helps

Theres a like ..5..? Idk how to count! Person hood and we got info that suggests scums in the hood.

I think its sus of action to say "0 or 1 scum in the hood" since i dont get why ceph would give that info if there wasnt scum in the hood?
I think hes scum trying to push the assumption of no scum in hood so he can get whateber that buff is.

Really! Lets all claim our hoods! i am so fucking scared of mine what if theres multiple scum i know im an easy pocket..

i’m admittedly unused to this from marci (this being like… i guess not being pseudo trolly if not all out) but it matches what i think she could post as town

like it seems out of her wheelhouse to be a wolf and go hi guys. Neighborhoods? to me lol

[Shello and Goodbye]

i feel like most of my townreads so far have been people who have been varying degrees of More Active than the people i haven’t townread which is a problem for later me

[Shello and Goodbye]

I'll start;

Strong Townreads: Firebringer
Townreads: Save the Dragons, Shello and Goodbye, PenguinPower
Townleans:
Null: Everyone Else
Scumleans:
Scum: Firebagel, Morph The Cat, Sunflower
Strong Scumread:

curious how a bad boy insists that he’s good…

[Shello and Goodbye]

my reaction to that action daniel post was Wow i don’t like this. i guess because it runs opposite how i feel (the miller thing is meh to me in general) but my smart person brain reaction after is i think i can’t read actiondan until three days into this game where he will inextricably exude a powerful aura if he’s town

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:o

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my only superpower in mafia si being able to somewhat reliably identify if people are town while other people think they are not town. this does not mean i stop their eliminations

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i hope theres 0 wolves in the hood i think it would be the funniest choice

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while it was not the pinnacle of a towncase i think i want to rescind my firebagel read looking back at the earlier parts of the game i feel like she was trying a bit too hard to fit in with the Whimsy and Wonder RVS squad. i'm not sure if this matters as much for a gimmicky account because like yeah youre gonna want to interact with the people who inspired you but meh

[Shello and Goodbye]

Things of note:

Ydra's entrance vibed town for me.

I am liking Oblivion's questions at Firebagel, and am not liking firebagel's responses. But I think that I am liking Oblivions questions more then I am disliking bagel's responses.

I am also surprised by the fireisredsir fluff, and also surprised at the number of reads he churned out in 116 in response to being called out for fluff.

if i had to take a crack at it i think it’s the last part - it feels silly that he reiterated how surprised he felt as if it were a big deal and the word churned is ?_? to me here lol

I stand by surprised in both instances thank you very much.

When I started reading fire's posts, I seemed a little out of character for how I picture him, bit I also realized it's been a long time since I played with him, so I kinda just filed the thought away for later.

And when I hit that post, it felt like (flagrantly stealing this verbage from morph) tonal whiplash.

Given the timing, it also seemed reactionary to the people proding him for his fluffiness. The content of the reads also felt a bit weak, and it looked like he was padding out the reads to appease the haters.

That is where churned came in. Like he started the post with the idea "I need to put reads out because people are prodding me," and came up with the reads as he wrote the post. As opposed to just expressing the reads he had been developing.

I was still mulling over whether or not I thought town!fire would also feel the need to put out reads if he felt like people were starting to suspect him over his content, which is why I didn't go from calling it surprising -> calling it scummy.

The point about scum fire being able to churn out a better reads list if he felt like he needed to does ring true a little.

yeah okay i do think that's fair. in the last game which just finished recently midsummer i noted that sunflower was playing more sociable than i expected and it was because they were wolfing so i don't inherently think that's a bad thing to pressure on as previously stated

i don't have a strong mental Picture of Lukewarm but it felt like calling things repeatedly surprising was.. wrong i guess, idk if i expect you to have a bit more sureness or bite to how you approach posts and that was more of a softball like you were being timid

[Shello and Goodbye]

i didn't really like the CSF post about oblivion at all but i think i don't agree with dan about suspecting her for the miller claim. im probably not gonna give that much weight i think

explain?

[Shello and Goodbye]

do you feel like you've always acted this.. idk i don't want to say my idea of fireisredsir is 'gloomy' really but you seem like you're more free-spirited recently so im just curious if theres a difference now in how youre approaching games

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i guess looking at the csf post to oblivion i do question what the point of the ending of it was

like saying you dont agree its hostile and it peters out is mehish

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im not saying this trying to be rude even though it inevitably will be, its just necessary to explain my thoughts: based off of the last few games i have seen of you where you have basically not cared at all, been petulant and unhelpful at most chances i think that showing a modicum of helpfulness and worry clears a low bar for you as town

maybe you feel an obligation to a wolf team and thus are putting in a bit more work or something but i dont really believe in that world atm

[Shello and Goodbye]

that was @marci

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i think actiondan's jump on marci is the type of jump on i see from scum pretty often when they think a townie has done something objectively scummy

wdym

[Shello and Goodbye]

After playing a game on mafiauniverse where i had a lovely girliepop esk trying to coach me (LMAO) through giving reads it has highly made me enjoy doing things.

Though i will admit here like i admitted there, i am so much more interested in my nightplay than my dayplay.

did you play one of the mentor games i did one a while back and it was pretty fun

[Shello and Goodbye]

(also if you do feel more motivated to play and give reads and stuff now - good! i'm very happy for that change)

[Shello and Goodbye]

My thoughts so far:

Sunflower in post 13 struck me the wrong way as I wasn't expecting that post from fireisredsir, and then they had a lot of filler type posts. They then call me towny and I'm not sure what they are basing that off of either with the 4 posts I had before.

ActionDan's post 86 rubs me the wrong way because I don't agree and don't know how they reached their conclusions. Perhaps they can explain.

Sunflower is because of forces outside the main thread. I will not explain that at this time, but may before the day is through.

Firebagel was because as an alt that may very well only exist for the purpose of stealing Firebringer's scum claiming gimmick, it hadn't posted for a page.

OK. Why is not posting for a page scummy?

People who engage in gimmicks like that place a high priority on RVS banter to form early reads. If they do not post while the iron is hot, the utility disappears as well.

---

I see our neighborhood has been outed. At first glance this worry from Maristar looks planned and manufactured. And with the goodfellas award I am discarding this as an oversensitive townie

VOTE: Maristar

Secondly CSF earns a permanent FOS for the Miller claim for this particular game alone.

revisiting this i think if dan is a wolf it's very funny to reference someone's goodfellas award to bolster a vote
i want to say it's Too Much but maybe that's early lol.

also i do think that extricating planned and manufactured from what marci said around the neighborhoods (that she was scared or it was weird or s/t) probably is bizarre to an outsider

[Shello and Goodbye]

it's goofy but dan doesn't strike me as the type of person to throw that in willy nilly as a wolf idk. he seems like he would be more preoccupied with being Serious (<- has seen one game of dan and it was a town game)

[Shello and Goodbye]

I think i tr dannfloor but its very weak sauce.

I saw people arguing over pooky. Thats fucking wild and i want to say no. The pookys readlist? Animal crew? Clearly jokes why is it 3ven being debated.

Dunnstral is it actually just wifom? Im so confused but what does everyone else feel?
IM REALLY FUCKING SCARED FOR MAFIA TO GET A BUFF I WANNA ELIMINATE THAT POSSIBILITY SO BADLY.
my hoodmates are also trying to explqin this fyi, but like idk...

I also tr someone else abd i forg9t who it was uwu

why would it be a joke ~18 pages in?

[Shello and Goodbye]

also marci why do you keep reiterating that you're scared specifically
i think worried maybe is like "reasonable" i guess to me but repeatedly saying that youre scared is ?_? a bit to me
or is it just hyperbole

p-edit VOTE: marcistar

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UNVOTE:

okay we can leave it at that for now

[Shello and Goodbye]

maybe

i'm gonna look elsewhere for now

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i think gypyx is a little townie

[Shello and Goodbye]

was that vote strictly because you thought dann was lying?

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mmm

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VOTE: Sunflower

This one maybe, I had bad feelings about those votes on Marci

For Sunflower I was a little off-put about how they reacted to Morph vs how they reacted to me when there was early suspicion, and they say it was because my read was more "gut"

did you think dannflor was lying...?

I thought they were trying to take advantage of the situation but the meta they linked was pretty clear - moreso than what I expected, so I decided to back off

It's still possible that they are trying to take advantage of the situation

how do you think they would take advantage of the situation? like is it just him saying she did it in a prior game to push her here or is there anymore?
and did you have a read of dann b4 that?

[Shello and Goodbye]

There's a hard-to-describe timidity to a lot of Ydrasse's posts that rubs me the wrong way and feels different from her brief stint that I observed in Kemusan. To be fair, she was IC in Kemusan and also didn't end up posting much, but the way she presented herself felt more confident and less wishy-washy. See the bolded in the below quotes for examples:

i don’t really like luke’s intro and posts on 5-6

idk why i haven’t played with him for a while so it could be that but

they feel off to the vibes of the thread

while it was not the pinnacle of a towncase

i think i want to rescind my firebagel read looking back at the earlier parts of the game i feel like she was trying a bit too hard to fit in with the Whimsy and Wonder RVS squad.

i'm not sure if this matters as much

for a gimmicky account because like yeah youre gonna want to interact with the people who inspired you but meh

it's goofy but

dan doesn't strike me as the type of person to throw that in willy nilly as a wolf idk. he seems like he would be more preoccupied with being Serious (<- has seen one game of dan and it was a town game)

The rest of my Ydrasse meta is like four years old but I recall her being OVERLY confident in previous games and here she's playing a little too scared for my liking.

Anyone want to enlighten me on why they are town reading Ydrasse?

PEdit: that is a good vote from Ydrasse though, she's already winning me over!

i think i'm a lot different than how i used to play when i joined the site - but i think that if you checked some of how i've been playing recently this is just how i've felt in games

[Shello and Goodbye]

My edible is kicking in and I am really not in the mood to keep reading so I'm going to haphazardly engage with some of you in real time until I don't feel like it anymore

PEdit: @Ydra I agreed with your assessment of Luke's early posts, how do you feel about his interaction with Morph specifically?

i think that luke came out of it feeling better to me than morph, his read about it being a jedi mind trick into town on morph felt believable. i don't think that morph was wolfy during it though

[Shello and Goodbye]

i thought marci was playing up that she was a 'power role' to try and like bait a night kill but this works too lol

[Shello and Goodbye]

i think i'm okay with killing inside of the hood but im curious if its better to leash everyone to one target and let them go for a night because i dont think any of the people in that hood are a priority to kill for wolves (?) from the outside looking in, maybe mechanically but i don't feel like any of them have exerted a lot of solving pressure thus far to make them like 'clear' targets

like if wolves want to cut down their own poe and shoot in there sure i guess that could happen

[Shello and Goodbye]

felt like getting off ActionDan based on something said in the hood

picked morph for funzies

whenever youre dragons around can you talk abt this more?

[Shello and Goodbye]

am i not enough for you people.......

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i am trying to make a readslist but it is very hard and a lot of this game feels like jello. ama for like 10 mins

[Shello and Goodbye]

i am trying to make a readslist but it is very hard and a lot of this game feels like jello. ama for like 10 mins

What is your thoughts on how the current game state looks from a voting standpoint? This question is open ended, interpet it however you like and provide that answer.

i think that people are voting the two most likely wolves in the dethyhood and also the sunflower wagon looks a lot worse than the klick one does fmpov. people will probably coalesce on one of the two soonish
i'm using this as a jumping board to post a really ?? reads list. this is without reading back too much and feeling out the Shape of the game in my mind instead

Hermit Crab (anonymous hydra)
Lukewarm
morph the cat (fferyllt & Cabd)
Dunnstral
Firebringer
Gypyx
PenguinPower
Oblivion
Cat Scratch Fever

Dannflor
Spiffeh
PookyTheMagicalBear
Brian Skies
Firebagel

~
SirCakez
Bingle
~

marcistar

ActionDan
Save the Dragons

Klick
Sunflower (JupiterXV & fireisredsir)

[Shello and Goodbye]

i think the biggest ! things or changes from before on that list are

- spiffeh whose recent posts after interacting with me were strange to me he felt defensive over being questioned about how he engaged with me
- dannflor i dont have a great way to verbalize this rn but he feels bizarre. my gypyx read has her there because she also noticed that too
- pooky i think is strange because usually when people get really huffy and puffy over stuff and are like "kill me and then them" i err towards them being town but with him i feel like that's in his Wolf Wheelhouse to break out easily so idk what to make of it
- there's a lot of goop in the middle of the top section i think that if i do not have all of the wolves in the bottom tiers for both parts of the list i's in like penguin/csf/oblivion (the last one i want to revisit tmrw because some of its recent posting pinged me and i think its for the questions being asked?)
- i think the most ?? of my reads in the bottom part is probably dragons because in-thread has been just fine but from what ive gleaned from posting his neighborhood stuff has been good

[Shello and Goodbye]

Shello can you elaborate on the Gypyx townread?

-Herr Mitt

Already On It

[Shello and Goodbye]

i'm listing the neighborhood independently from my main reads it's not that they're all that low lol

[Shello and Goodbye]

For me, Marci, Hermit Crab and Luke are the top three townreads.

Marci because she was so visibly uncomfortable and confused by her role/neighborhood and very suspicious of the hood until things began to click for her both within the hood and externally, in the game thread. I could see the gears turning (and grinding) in her posts. Everything about the way she revealed what was going on just built onto that foundation in a very natural and unstructured way. I also think that scum Marci would want to give us much more of a wide berth than she has.

Hermit Crab as a hidden hydra wouldn't go out of their way to support us as they have. There would be no need and we wouldn't think twice about a more cautious approach from an unknown quantity. And we're enough of a threat as scum that it would be a no-brainer to wait and see what town actually makes of us this game. There's also an incredible amount of mindmeld going on with Hermit Crab which I believe doesn't happen this way if they're scum.

Luke as town has a POV (that I don't want to discuss in detail because it's filed under competitive advantage) that we feel confident in reading when we see it. I interacted with him and pushed back at him long enough for us both to feel confident about that POV being present.

If I were pushing outside Marci's neighborhood, I'd be voting Spiffeh at the moment for this post. We discussed whether to vote in the dethy or outside of it before putting our Klick vote down. The deciding factor was the dethy players' preferences for cleaning their hood.

Sync Achieved indeed.

What are your thoughts on Dunnstraal?

I think Dunnstral's been scumhunting and pushing people pretty hard once there was more to sink his teeth into. My read had gone leantown before then but his reaction to Spiffeh re ActionDan made a pretty big positive impression.

Really? It felt quite the opposite. The reason it asked is because you earmarked Spiffeh for scum and from its current engagements with Spiffeh, it has an internal note to flip Dunnstraal if Spiffeh is scum.

@oblivion

it's actually this i think - i don't think there's anything... inherently 'wrong' with this post itself on the surface but it feels a bit like something i've seen wolves post before. this is really vague and im struggling to give a why, i guess it's the linking to a better read player and starting to string them together. i think if spiffeh does flip wolf its the sort of thing i revisit critically (i am stringing you together now with spiffeh lol)

[Shello and Goodbye]

i have absolutely no issue with being vigged as long as whoever shoots me shoots morph next night

[Shello and Goodbye]

i'm listing the neighborhood independently from my main reads it's not that they're all that low lol

Can you give a sense of where they slot in overall?

- having the context of why marci's been talking about being afraid this game and worried and etc makes more sense to me and i dont think she would handle it this way if she were a wolf or idek if she would be able
- actiondan isnt wolfy to me really i think back to that post where he voted marci and that just is town to me. i think he would be playing a little sloppy if he were a wolf too with how he handled the miller stuff it falls apart very easily. wolves Can Be Sloppy but... eh?
- already explained dragons
- klick and sunflower are kind of in the same place here by virtue of the other three being townier i think, dragons is contentious because of no in-thread but trusting what's going on in the neighborhood instead. going strictly off of wagon i think sunflower is the town between these two and i dont think fire plays midsummer 2 here as an opener

[Shello and Goodbye]

morph, do either of you have an opinion on Dannflor yet

I may have missed it if you answered my question. I'm curious about the meaning of your tags in your reads list. what do strikethroughs and bolding denote?

I will answer
Could I ask what your best guess is first?

Our best guess is that the strikethroughs mean you've found them town enough for now, and the bolds are your scumreads/concerns.

That's basically accurate

I find value in it being ambiguous. I like to experiment with different methods of expressing my thoughts on the game. I also enjoy extracting information out of how people engage with different levels of ambiguity vs straightforwardness. I often find that some people's assumptions about things like that are pretty closely attached to alignment.

I'll occasionally shift how willing I am to highlight someone in one direction or another just to try it out and see what will happen

this is i think really tangential and the least sensical take for klick but i thought that this felt weird at the time because it doesnt quite match what i would expect him to answer. i dont know what that answer would -be- though. otherwise his recent posting seems like hes not very comfortable in thread

[Shello and Goodbye]

That is a confusing take. Have you read the bit of it and spiffeh's interaction on page 7?

It will outline for you why it thinks the way it does. In essence while poking at Spiffeh, spiffeh appeared to want to change its mind about things. It was confused, initially because... it didn't HAVE a strong solid take away on Bagel OR Dunnstraal yet. And yet this player seemed to be... intoning something towards it? And then by the response it was given in the end, it felt like Spiffeh had an agenda to be manipulating it.

It is FULLY aware of its position in this game. It is newer, it is less known and knows less of everyone. It expects it will be the target of manipulation tactics to control it. That was the kind of tactic is was on high alert for.

So, in its mind, if Spiffeh was scum trying to control it as what he might view as a weaker mind to misdirect, why would Spiffeh do that? What is the intended angle? the intended angle would be either

Make it believe they are town
convince it to change its mind on one of the two reads

but it wasn't.... sweet enough for the first. It didn't feel like it was trying to be swayed to have its eyes covered on the case of Spiffeh's alignment. So it assumes the second. And if Bagel is town...

There's the end of that logic chain.

looking back at it now i can see the angle of 'spiffeh is trying to pocket oblivion by being niceish on arrival' but i dont agree with the take wrt dunnstral. i think it would be heavyhanded to try and butter someone up to their partner that early into the game without having a better rapport, also i think that if spiffeh wants to say 'this is my strongest read' he has to later 1) make up towny reasons for his wolf partner to be town or 2) figure out a way to walk away from that over time

and i dont think that... that level of strategy really happens between partners early on, idk. maybe it does and he wasnt thinking about the consequences but it doesnt seem likely to me that theyre partnered off of this

[Shello and Goodbye]

i have absolutely no issue with being vigged as long as whoever shoots me shoots morph next night

if someone repeats four times in the first day of a game for any vig to shoot me, I'm going to ask that if it's done that they pay with their lives on the next night.

that is not me asking to get shot or killed. I have not at any point asked to die or whatever.

i mean the point i cared more about was the first part where you okayed being shot which is something, if not in this exact context, ive done as wolf more than once and i feel you would do too. you can be town being upset too but from experience i just feel like you get more upset/angry/etc like this as a wolf sorry

[Shello and Goodbye]

i'm listing the neighborhood independently from my main reads it's not that they're all that low lol

Can you give a sense of where they slot in overall?

- having the context of why marci's been talking about being afraid this game and worried and etc makes more sense to me and i dont think she would handle it this way if she were a wolf or idek if she would be able
- actiondan isnt wolfy to me really i think back to that post where he voted marci and that just is town to me. i think he would be playing a little sloppy if he were a wolf too with how he handled the miller stuff it falls apart very easily. wolves Can Be Sloppy but... eh?
- already explained dragons
- klick and sunflower are kind of in the same place here by virtue of the other three being townier i think, dragons is contentious because of no in-thread but trusting what's going on in the neighborhood instead. going strictly off of wagon i think sunflower is the town between these two and i dont think fire plays midsummer 2 here as an opener

I meant where they'd individually fall in your overall reads list or tier list if that's how you're sorting.

Maybe I'm asking for something that isn't baked enough yet.

i havent really thought about those five like that but i think they would roughly map the same, marci up near the top, dragons and dan low-town, sunflower probably top of the 'would vote today' pile and klick a bit below

i dont feel strongly about those though i think in this game there are too many people for me to feel really okay about tiered/organized reads so having the five separate is a good way to split the burden

[Shello and Goodbye]

i mean the point i cared more about was the first part where you okayed being shot which is something, if not in this exact context, ive done as wolf more than once and i feel you would do too. you can be town being upset too but from experience i just feel like you get more upset/angry/etc like this as a wolf sorry

my point is I have never asked to be killed in this game so it is strange to me that is what you are getting from what I posted.

I simply said IF a vig actually listens to Cabd's constant harping that they should do me a favor and get hit on the next night

i disagree with that frankly but i dont wanna go blow for blow on this if youre like this rn, we can talk some other time if you want to

[Shello and Goodbye]

people keep being overly eager to paint meta reads off incomplete/inaccurate data with no shame or concern whatsoever and the fact that some of them are doing it as town is annoying

Who are you sub tweeting here?

spiffeh and morph mostly

i think there was a third that made it feel like a pattern but idr who

Have you considered that I was using my admittedly flimsy meta read on Ydra as an entry point to engage with her and see if others felt the same way as me about the things that DO bother me?

(I recognize this is an unfair thing to assume that you would catch, but the above is approximately 40% of the reason I presented that post in the way that I did!)

Also which of the two of us are "doing it as town"?

I kinda think ActionDan is Town?

Does he really continue to double down on the miller thing as scum when it’s clearly rubbing people the wrong way and worsening his already vulnerable position?

spiffeh this wa mostly what i was talking about for how you felt defensive in the first post and in the second for your tone (i don’t think i explicitly said this) feeling a bit insincere at times - it’s like you’re going WOW guys i can’t BELIEVE this. film students first acting moment sort of vibes lol

i’m not feeling this as much this morning though. i don’t know if you were wolf if you would keep after me so much and so specifically. i think wolves can have pet projects that make them look busy but idk right now i think you’re maybe being sincere about your concerns @ me

[Shello and Goodbye]

also you shall remain skitterless for now

[Shello and Goodbye]

do you think what is presumably a dethy wouldn’t have wolves

[Shello and Goodbye]

klick can you explain your sunflower read since you’re doubting it now but it also looks like it was your one wolfread beyond the neighborhood (i think)?

[Shello and Goodbye]

i think i’d find it bizarre personally if there’s not a wolf in the hood and seeing you being kind of poe’d in it and trying to suggest a 0 world is a little ? to me i guess

[Shello and Goodbye]

ill be honest though part of me is still scumreading every post marci makes

which ones or why

[Shello and Goodbye]

sort of at the part where i asked her in hood why she said she had a powerful role and her answer was like, oh i thought cop was powerful?

what do you think a wolf marci would intend by that

[Shello and Goodbye]

ill be honest though part of me is still scumreading every post marci makes

sort of at the part where i asked her in hood why she said she had a powerful role and her answer was like, oh i thought cop was powerful?

what do you think a wolf marci would intend by that

well that is why i am not pushing marci i don't really think her play necessarily makes more sense as wolf it just is hard for me to see it as real

but i think it's more likely for that to just be like. a miscalibrated gut. but i would also feel dumb if she did end up being scum and i didn't bring it up so im doing that

i guess these two posts feel to me like dissonant in what you actually feel about marci but idk it’s kind of the same thing with klick potentially keeping himself safe by 0 wolf theory but you choose to open the poe instead of shut it off if that makes sense

[Shello and Goodbye]

VOTE: Dannflor

?

[Shello and Goodbye]

ill be honest though part of me is still scumreading every post marci makes

sort of at the part where i asked her in hood why she said she had a powerful role and her answer was like, oh i thought cop was powerful?

what do you think a wolf marci would intend by that

well that is why i am not pushing marci i don't really think her play necessarily makes more sense as wolf it just is hard for me to see it as real

but i think it's more likely for that to just be like. a miscalibrated gut. but i would also feel dumb if she did end up being scum and i didn't bring it up so im doing that

i guess these two posts feel to me like dissonant in what you actually feel about marci but idk it’s kind of the same thing with klick potentially keeping himself safe by 0 wolf theory but you choose to open the poe instead of shut it off if that makes sense

my brain is dissonant in what i feel about marci yes that's what i was trying to explain

and yea im aware of that, but idk if that really would help me here with 6 votes on klick and the slot with the most thread control hard shielding marci. if i wanted to keep the poe more open id talk about how i think it could be AD. which i do btw

hmm
what do you think about the thread dynamics atm

that’s vague but i think you get what i mean by asking

[Shello and Goodbye]

are people confident that dragons is town

[Shello and Goodbye]

errant mech thought is that even if i gave the idea and klick flack earlier for the suggestion of 0 wolves is it possible that wolves can be switched into that neighborhood to get the benefits or is the wording explicit about their current presence

[Shello and Goodbye]

that feels like a suitable risk and reward / wifom play for this kind of game if wolves think one of their own can play strongly or if they want to frame someone

[Shello and Goodbye]

i think it’s understandable to want to solve the hood because it’s a very good beginning point in a game like this and made it easier for me at least to break down some of my thoughts

who’s in the other hood again?

[Shello and Goodbye]

@Luke Nope

My neighborhood consists of myself, Dunnstral, Hermit Crab, Bingle, SirCakez, and Firebringer if that hasn’t been said already

idk if this has been asked or said already or if should be if there is Stuff there but is anything in your hood reflective of the dethy one?

[Shello and Goodbye]

I definitely do not have time to read 57 pages right now so

V/LA through Thursday May 2

Wolfm

[Shello and Goodbye]

i don’t particularly think it’s sunflower atm if there is a wolf in the dethy hood

[Shello and Goodbye]

VOTE: dragons
i don’t feel strongly about this vote but i’ll help wagon for now

[Shello and Goodbye]

hi firebagel what are your strongest reads

[Shello and Goodbye]

and who is wolf?

[Shello and Goodbye]

and who is wolf?

awoooooooo

…………hoooot hooooot…………….

[Shello and Goodbye]

she told me before the game started she would be back around wednesday!

[Shello and Goodbye]

we could wagon marci again instead

i am being annoying why do you think she is wolf again

[Shello and Goodbye]

and who is wolf?

Don't have any strong scumreads.

do you have any leads at all?
i’m asking because you seemed a little uncomfortable when you showed up and i feel like your posts are not really engaging with the game at large

[Shello and Goodbye]

we could wagon marci again instead

i am being annoying why do you think she is wolf again

I'm not really scum reading any of the other hood members and I agree with Sunflowers that marci feels kind of fake in how she's treated her own role and her reactions to others

i will agree that her tone is different clearly and that i’ve been discounting that since if she is trying a new playstyle it will be foreign but do you think that if she’s a wolf she’s the one who kind of begins the crumbing and leading the main thread into the info like she did?

[Shello and Goodbye]

because fmpov i don’t think she would, she’s been explicit about wanting to focus on nightplay and while people May Lie idk it feels like putting like 50 eyes on the intricacies of it and their opinions might hinder her

[Shello and Goodbye]

my main point is that "there is exactly one scum in this hood" is a very dangerous assumption to make because it can really fuck us if its simply not true

i am currently a supporter of the solve game at large movement

[Shello and Goodbye]

i’ll revisit the dan read thing when i’m on my laptop
i think if i am wrong about a read in the hood it’s probably dan i feel like i may have cleared him too easily early on and it’s lingered

[Shello and Goodbye]

i’ll help

woof

[Shello and Goodbye]

pooky we gotta kill this guy

[Shello and Goodbye]

good work and then i’ll bring him out back

[Shello and Goodbye]

yes but you’ll follow the bone shaped treats

[Shello and Goodbye]

Tiered list. Not ready to write a book.

This is a fferylist. Slots where neuterhalf and I have opinions and are not yet synced are noted.

{Hermit Crab, Luke}
{Marci, Oblivion, Dunn}
{CSF, YdraHydra, Bagel(?)} spayhalf has YdraHydra here, neuterhalf has them lower. Neuterhalf has Pooky in this tier.
---------------------------
{Brian Skies, ActionDan, Gypyx, Firebringer, Pooky*} Surprised Brian is in this group, but this feels right to me. neuterhalf has him lower
{Dannflor, Spiffeh} On top of other stuff in the thread, I feel like Spiffeh is reaching with his appeal for us to townread him based on mindmeld :/
{Klick, Sunflower}
------------------
Not enough content yet for a call

{STD, SirCakez, Bingle, PenguinPower*}

PenguinPower being present and voting but not poking around at all is nearly enough concern to put him in one of the two lower groups under the first line.

idk why it surprises me that you guys have klick and sunflower tiered lowest beyond the neighborhood but it does, does the hood have any bearing on this?

[Shello and Goodbye]

better than on my secret alt..........

[Shello and Goodbye]

Tiered list. Not ready to write a book.

This is a fferylist. Slots where neuterhalf and I have opinions and are not yet synced are noted.

{Hermit Crab, Luke}
{Marci, Oblivion, Dunn}
{CSF, YdraHydra, Bagel(?)} spayhalf has YdraHydra here, neuterhalf has them lower. Neuterhalf has Pooky in this tier.
---------------------------
{Brian Skies, ActionDan, Gypyx, Firebringer, Pooky*} Surprised Brian is in this group, but this feels right to me. neuterhalf has him lower
{Dannflor, Spiffeh} On top of other stuff in the thread, I feel like Spiffeh is reaching with his appeal for us to townread him based on mindmeld :/
{Klick, Sunflower}
------------------
Not enough content yet for a call

{STD, SirCakez, Bingle, PenguinPower*}

PenguinPower being present and voting but not poking around at all is nearly enough concern to put him in one of the two lower groups under the first line.

idk why it surprises me that you guys have klick and sunflower tiered lowest beyond the neighborhood but it does, does the hood have any bearing on this?

Only that the two are, at least in my (neuter's) mind, mutually exclusive, and that I have pretty good in-thread reasons for disliking both.

mmm i guess that was why it was surprising to me? if you have two people that are exclusive most of the time its good i guess to try and sort in that grouping if possible so seeing them together is like oh lol
i guess maybe it 'cheapens' the value of having the tier at all

[Shello and Goodbye]

I have decided that I do not believe what I do not see, regardless of what the other people in the hood says.

VOTE: STD

-Herr Mitt

Why me over someone like sircakez or bingle? Because you want to solve the hood or?

Do you think we should be going after Sircakez/Bingle?

No but I'm trying to sus out why people are voting me

shello
we need more of the dragon in thread

[Shello and Goodbye]

Hey i've been very vla since sunday, sorry
I'll be around again starting tomorrow and will do some sort of attempt at reading thru/catching up

~skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

I have vaguely skimmed the past 70 pages. There's some bits that I kind of want to go back and read in greater depth, but until then, here are my assorted off the cuff thoughts:

Pooky town
Oblivion town (?)
Crab hydra town (?)
Marci town (?)
Csf town (?)

I have a kind of silly reason to vaguely townread morph but i don't think it's that strong or valid so i'm probably not going to give that much weight to it; my general approach is going to be to largely ignore the hydra until later and/or outsource to someone who can read them better than me. Isn't scum with sunflower unless sunflower is like exactly a traitor

Luke pinged me, need to explore -> i think for a while when i was skimming i thought he was in the sunflower hydra and was getting them confused so i think i need to reread this

Spiffeh feels kind of scummy to me, although it is very possible this is a reaction to the touhou game.

Things i want to further explore/read closer:
~ how marci revealed the hood
~luke iso
~ what other people were doing at the time of the pooky/oblivion thing
~ more abt the hood in general
~ probably some other things i am not thinking of at this time

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Hello!

[Shello and Goodbye]

Ok re-reading the marci-hood thing, given what's known abt it later, I don't like it as much

I actually think actiondan's 205 can be townie

I don't think dannflor and marci are likely to be scum together from how dannflor is pushing actiondan and defending marci based on the hood info

I'm kinda underwhelmed by luke i think

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Skitter what don’t you like about the marci-hood thing?

So reading thru the first time, it felt like she was being very eager and sharing-y and the whole vibe felt +town, in a 'why would scum be sharing all of this so fast' sort of way.

Reading thru again, knowing what the hood is - it feels very different and almost performative. She volunteers a lot of information very deliberately, early. The performative bit admittedly could just be her playstyle so I'm not necessarily calling her scum for it, but it didn't feel nearly as good the second time reading it

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Marci is the hood named deathy or something?

uhh it has to do with our role dms!

united

inventors

association!

Marci is an innocent child

, as of this post.

Facepalm.

That explains the nuance about "more complicated than that"

Why was this?

[Shello and Goodbye]

am i not enough for you people.......

>.>

[Shello and Goodbye]

I'll get to the oblivion post and other recent stuff abt marci in a bit, i'm presently rereading

And fair enuf, i'm not really sure I'm calling her scum tbh but it but it did feel rather different the second time; i can see it from town-her too. Honestly don't know what my read on her is rn

I don't think pooky is prickly in this way as scum. I'm having a hard time seeing him interact with morph the way he does on pages ~37/38 as scum, just doesn't really feel like how he'd approach this game

Oblivion's reaction to dethy on page 41 probably does not come from scum (particularly 1010 and 1013)

Luke's 1019 also quite townie

You and csf just kinda feel like town

Upon my second read through i probably want to add dunn to the townlist (particularly for 881 and 885)

Morph - it's a little hard to articulate but the way they responded to the hood/dethy reveal kind of felt uninformed to me, especially how it's actually inventor-cop-shot-of-dubious-sanities-dethy and not regular dethy . Particularly the 'wow i can't believe you plebs didn't figure out it's dethy' bits felt uninformed given what it actually is. This kind of has an asterisk because : a) if there's a traitor in that hood kind of irelevant b) i think this can be faked by them
Also i can't really tell which head is posting, if it was ffery I feel better abt this read, if it was cabd it might be a wash. The later convo with sunflower (1351) reinforces the uninformed impression. Also i didn't notice the marci is ic post (762) the first time i read thru and it also makes me less confident abt this read overall because I'm not sure when they figured out the inventor thing, i think that was the first time it was mentioned but tbf it's very possible i missed something. Or maybe they got to a townread on marci for something else in that post, unclear. This is a lot of words to say i think they feel kind of uninformed but i don't feel very confident in calling them town for it

As an aside i don't think i especially about trying to find scum in the dethy hood

This was all @crab hydra

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Ok fair enuf, it's now a townping with like four asterisks that i'm giving not a lot of weight to

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

I kind of skim-read the whole game last night but didn't read everything and my impression after that was ~underwhelmed (part of which i think is because i thought you were in the sunflower hydra and was confused abt some of the things you were saying)

The first post was after that read

I read again more thoroughly this morning and saw 1019 which i thought was quite townie, i don't think i saw it the first time. I'm still kind of underwhelmed with your solving, but i don't think that post comes from scum

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

I'm contemplating votibg firebringer or spiffeh

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

No, just underwhelmed , had written it at the start of the reread / before I saw 1019

@ luke

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Spiffeh can you talk a bit more abt your read on ydra / my slot please?

Also firebringer?

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

No, just underwhelmed , had written it at the start of the reread / before I saw 1019

@ luke

~ skitter

:thumbs up:

I was kinda balking at seeing myself listed as "is pinging me" followed by "underwhelming," but then came to mind when asked

I’m also curious if you could unpack your other townreads

But this is a reasonable enough explanation, and looking back it after you said this, it kind of tracks with the greater context of the post where you called me underwhelming

Yeah 1789 was kind of a combo of answering crab's question and also sharing ~other reads and thoughts i had while rereading, one of which was having come acrosss 1019 and realizing i liked it

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

@spiffeh thanks, I'm having similar thoughts on Firebringer, i think he said somewhere he was getting sick so wondering if him being meh is just a byprouct of that, but he is missing a lot of the ~oomph i'd expect from fire

You're strongly townreading morph, right?

[Shello and Goodbye]

i like danns posting about bagel rn, i was taking to skitter earlier today about the wagons and ended up at maybe just lhf that isn’t as engaged

-ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

i don’t know if i’m confident in it being bagel
i could be sold on someone like gypyx if we go lowposyers but that was more because i was making a list of people i could vote and gypyxs posts are just fine to me which felt strange when i remember her starting okayish

[Shello and Goodbye]

- ydra

and also ydra allegedly: btwn firebringer and spiffeh i think i’d vote fire first, skitter and i agree there more that he feels bland this game. spiffeh i’m less sure on

[Shello and Goodbye]

VOTE: firebringer

i know you suffer greatly from Seriously playing sometimes but you feel very dull this game so i want to know where your heads at? @firebringer

-ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

yeah but i still wanted to make the effort ):

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

@spiffeh thanks, I'm having similar thoughts on Firebringer, i think he said somewhere he was getting sick so wondering if him being meh is just a byprouct of that, but he is missing a lot of the ~oomph i'd expect from fire

You're strongly townreading morph, right?

Yes, primarily because of ffery’s interaction with Luke earlier on and that their dethy realization and surrounding discussion sounded like uninformed Town eager to figure out the best way to move forward given that information

I'm not sure how to word it exactly but some of your interactions with morph feel kinda weird to me, from your side - you're trying really hard to get them to townread you and it feels kinda weird

[Shello and Goodbye]

I like luke's point abt gypyx

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

i like danns posting about bagel rn, i was taking to skitter earlier today about the wagons and ended up at maybe just lhf that isn’t as engaged

-ydra

I hate it
VOTE: dannflor

abt bagel or in general ? and could you explain?
- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

I need to mull it over but i think i like 1902

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

She was reisen in dancegame tho

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

LET THE VOTES ROLL IN

Oh this is too tempting

VOTE: Firebringer

Also
Icky vote

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

She was reisen in dancegame tho

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Also now i think i know one head of the crab hydra so that helps

~ skitter

Pedit are those words supposed to be understandable by the masses?

[Shello and Goodbye]

I could probably vote firebagel

[Shello and Goodbye]

LET THE VOTES ROLL IN

Oh this is too tempting

VOTE: Firebringer

Also
Icky vote

~ skitter

Psst

You misspelled 'funny vote'

No no, I very much understand that it's a funny vote as part of a gimmick, etc
I have an issue with the timing in that you're not around that much and don't have a ton of content but you're around enough to vote this as it's happening

[Shello and Goodbye]

She was reisen in dancegame tho

~ skitter

Skitter, I am confused.

I am assuming that dance game and touhou are different games.

But Reisen was an anon account for touhou

But also, Gypyx was not Reisen in that game. She was Kagerou, right?

To clarify: crab hydra is saying she's playing like reisen from touhou (i.e. barely around and giving vague attempts at content once in a while) -> reisen was scum. It's less that i think she's reisen so much as reisen can be thought of as an arctype for meh utr scum

And she isn't playing like the town self we saw in touhou (kagerou)

I'm saying in the dance game (kemusun (sp?)) she was town and played similarly to how scum reisen played in touhou
So the fact that her play here looks like that of a 'reisen-type' scumgame isn't so meaningul to me

[Shello and Goodbye]

Like spiffeh + cabd literally had the exact same convo in dance game abt scum-gypyx's meta, how she played in tenet, has her scumgame changed at all since then, etc

Because she was playing like this there

She was town

I have no idea if she's town here or not but these reasons given for her being scum are kinda meh to me

[Shello and Goodbye]

Dance game then touhou

[Shello and Goodbye]

Yeah i was just grabbing it, here

viewtopic.php?t=92281

[Shello and Goodbye]

I am noting that it's kind of weird that this wagon, like, took off

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

what is a 'cabal person'

?

[Shello and Goodbye]

EVERYBODY TALKING ABOUT TENET BETTER BE SIGNING UP FOR SCREAM WHEN I FINISH IT VERY SOON

No fuck tenet that game doesn’t exist except in my nightmares

Only a cabal person would say this
Smh y'all

yeah fair enuf then

[Shello and Goodbye]

idk i still think shell game means that there's a power to swap people in and out of the hoods

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

I'm getting a scum with TMI vibe from this.

And there's really nothing in their ISO that gives me unequivocal townvibes. I was looking back fireisred's posts about her neighbors and it struck me that she's been suspicious of/shaded every one of them over the last nearly 3 days.

vote: Sunflower

Hasn't Dannflor said the same thing multiple times?

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

At least 4 people have said something along those lines, why are you calling out sunflower for it in particular

[Shello and Goodbye]

I think it was a joke ...

[Shello and Goodbye]

fire your struggles to find a place to go are part of the issue for me + skitter, you feel very muted in a way i havent seen b4 but your wagon being the first one to actually go places is ?
we havent talked that much after it got traction but i really didnt like the bagel vote which is where i think i would move but i think it maybe bothered skitter less than it did me

i want to talk to her more but id probably vote gypyx now
- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

i don't see why that would bother u.

u have seen my scum game. I have no issues generating content as scum.
Ive pocketed u like twice as scum before.

you being able to make content as a wolf doesnt make you not making content inherently towny
even when you arent doing a lot as town and being sillier and more fun i feel like theres a bit more .. idk heart usually to it that sounds very lame like im in captain planet but its true

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

i don't see why that would bother u.

u have seen my scum game. I have no issues generating content as scum.
Ive pocketed u like twice as scum before.

you being able to make content as a wolf doesnt make you not making content inherently towny
even when you arent doing a lot as town and being sillier and more fun i feel like theres a bit more .. idk heart usually to it that sounds very lame like im in captain planet but its true

- ydra

im confused are u saying u were nullreading me or scum leaning me for not making content. I am not saying u should townread me for doing nothing.

i was wolfreading you when i voted you but then your wagon actually moved in a way the others havent so im null now

[Shello and Goodbye]

Shello and Goodbye who do you think are the scum on the FB wagon if you're doubting your scum read there?

i really did not like bagels vote
the timing of it was not good. i think that while bagel might be more inclined as both alignments 2 vote for firebringer because interaction, gimmick, it was just gross 2 me. skitter feels the same

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

ur story makes sense if u were nullreading me and looking to sort me with the wagon. This just sounds like bullshit to me.

i wasnt and i explicitly just said i wasnt lol

[Shello and Goodbye]

i was wolfreading you when i voted you

but then your wagon actually moved in a way the others havent so im null now

[Shello and Goodbye]

what about that vote makes you think i was nullreading you

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

- ydra

and also ydra allegedly: btwn firebringer and spiffeh i think i’d vote fire first, skitter and i agree there more that he feels bland this game. spiffeh i’m less sure on

this is literally the post preceding my vote
i thought your introduction to this game was fine and fun and more of what i expected from you in general and then you faded out over time so i voted u

- ydra

p-edit: throw me back into the water then u silly dog

[Shello and Goodbye]

ok have fun then

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

understandable honestly

[Shello and Goodbye]

i was #townily thinking about the game earlier today and was wondering if this is the sort of game where wolves are just unable to really break into the like 'towny' or social core enough to really do a lot and are just trying to ride it out or s/t only to get steamrolled in a few days time

[Shello and Goodbye]

Shello and Goodbye who do you think are the scum on the FB wagon if you're doubting your scum read there?

i really did not like bagels vote
the timing of it was not good. i think that while bagel might be more inclined as both alignments 2 vote for firebringer because interaction, gimmick, it was just gross 2 me. skitter feels the same

- ydra

Sorry you don't have a sense of humor, but I think getting Firepup to join his own wagon was hilarious XD

i was going to ignore this because i didnt want to get into it right now and instead wanted to get mad at bad job listings but i forgot about the cheese thing which makes the vote make more sense to me

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

I find the arguments against SirCakez persuasive. The time gap between posts and also how they entered the thread looking like they were ready to solve but then vanished around the time they would have slipped. Also the idea that they would be spending time looking for how they knew that info.

I'm gonna be honest i think that sort of reference to tenet is enuf to figure out it's a cabal person (esp. as cakez modded it), and 1987 makes sense in the context of tenet, i don't think the 'timegap' is such a big deal

[Shello and Goodbye]

^
~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Firebagel, I was actually confusing your wagon with Firebringer's. I'm townreading two players on him in the latest VC.

VC 1.7

Firebringer 5 (Dannflor, Shello, Penguin, Sunflower, CSF)
STD 3 (Hermit, Pooky, Brian Skies)
Dannflor 3 (Firebagel, Firebringer, STD)
marcistar 2 (ActionDan, Bingle)
Firebagel 2 (Dunnstral, Lukewarm)
Sunflower 2 (Klick, Spiffeh)
Spiffeh 1 (Gypyx)

Not voting (Oblivion, SirCakez, marcistar, morph)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to fire a player into the sun.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-09 04:07:00)

This is ffery?

[Shello and Goodbye]

I think if you put a gun to my head I’d feel pretty confident saying

Brian/Cakez/Gypyx/(sunflower/klick)/super secret pocket read

But that could just be copium.

Eh i don't think it's that simple

[Shello and Goodbye]

Of the people who have voted me if i wanted to start questioning digging into it would be skitter/ydra hydra. Thats as much as i can give at this point

Oh hi

I actually kind of like 2209

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

skitter reaction to my wagon gaining traction was the scummiest part for me. That plus ydra vote on me.

I do think it's kinda weird that this wagon took off kind of easily tbh, you're at what, like 9? 8? I don't know if scum gets run up that easily on basically 'well he doesn't *feel* like himself', esp. in a game this big

[Shello and Goodbye]

Why is Dannflor so high for you? That is someone I'm devoted to focusing on in my reread
I thought you were scum reading Pooky, what changed your mind?
I was with you on Shello and Goodbye

but I thought skitter's posts were incredibly Town,

what makes you scum lean them?

Oh? In what way?

[Shello and Goodbye]

i don't see why that would bother u.

u have seen my scum game. I have no issues generating content as scum.
Ive pocketed u like twice as scum before.

you being able to make content as a wolf doesnt make you not making content inherently towny
even when you arent doing a lot as town and being sillier and more fun i feel like theres a bit more .. idk heart usually to it that sounds very lame like im in captain planet but its true

- ydra

im confused are u saying u were nullreading me or scum leaning me for not making content. I am not saying u should townread me for doing nothing.

For me it was somewhat a scumread but i think i feel better abt it now
Wanna talk to ydra but will prob vote elsewhere soon

[Shello and Goodbye]

Shello and Goodbye who do you think are the scum on the FB wagon if you're doubting your scum read there?

Gonna find the vc and come back to it, don't actually know who's on it

[Shello and Goodbye]

What is you reasoning behind cabd!scum?

not really interested in pursuing this atm, would be unproductive. ask me if i feel the same on like d3

Hmmmm

[Shello and Goodbye]

(a townie actually scum reading me is shouting that shit from the rooftops and urging the thread to stop following me blindly damn the personal consequences.)

From prior experience, yes

[Shello and Goodbye]

Dann is town, luke is town
I'm a little sus of csf

Not really sure i get the sunflower thing tbh

I don't think i really know how to read the morph hydra honestly but they don't feel as manipulative as i think they would be as scum (?) i don't really think i can townbin them but i don't think i scumread them either

[Shello and Goodbye]

i spent a half hour trying to figure out how to make two data sets reconcile without actually doing reconilation.
I mean, the easiest thing to do would be to do actual comparisons of data and analyze difference. But its 45000 lines. I am off by 200 from one data set to other for a "completeness check". Problem is when I tried to deeper digging it looks like theres false positives between them so the gap might be large.

I guess ill just call an engineer tomorrow to ask him to help me audit this shit.

>.>
What format is it in?

[Shello and Goodbye]

VC 1.7

Firebringer 5 (Dannflor, Shello, Penguin, Sunflower, CSF)
STD 3 (Hermit, Pooky, Brian Skies)
Dannflor 3 (Firebagel, Firebringer, STD)
marcistar 2 (ActionDan, Bingle)
Firebagel 2 (Dunnstral, Lukewarm)
Sunflower 2 (Klick, Spiffeh)
Spiffeh 1 (Gypyx)

Not voting (Oblivion, SirCakez, marcistar, morph)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to fire a player into the sun.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-09 04:07:00)

Oh this is the most recent vc >.>

Some more votes

Spoiler:

LET THE VOTES ROLL IN

Oh this is too tempting

VOTE: Firebringer

VOTE: Firebringer

ohh shit i have to sheep firebagel

VOTE: Firebringer

I want to see where this goes.

VOTE: Firebringer

VOTE: Sunflower

I think the cakez slip is fairly suspicious. I like morph's timing argument. And in addition when you review his posts from this recent burst, whenever he quote responds to someone else, he has done so within 5 minutes and typically within 2-3 minutes. So I get the sense that he was refreshing the thread a lot.

The only time he took ~10 mins to respond was to poiky's accusation.

VOTE: Cakez

I also think it was suspect that Brian Skies didn't react to the cakez thing at all. I think he might've been the only player around the time to post but not comment on it, but instead voted firebringer.

Shello and Goodbye who do you think are the scum on the FB wagon if you're doubting your scum read there?

i really did not like bagels vote
the timing of it was not good. i think that while bagel might be more inclined as both alignments 2 vote for firebringer because interaction, gimmick, it was just gross 2 me. skitter feels the same

- ydra

Sorry you don't have a sense of humor, but I think getting Firepup to join his own wagon was hilarious XD

Can you do the same trick but with Cakez?

Sure why not

VOTE: SirCakez

Honestly looking at it the wagon isn't great, I don't like the fact that all of penguin/csf/brian are on it, penguin maybe a little better for being early, brian the worst for being the last

Firebagel's vote is better with the cheese sheeping joke thing but i still don't like the timing of it

I don't know how i feel abt sunflower

I think there's probably scum in these people

UNVOTE:

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Shello, not she’ll

Me or ydra?

[Shello and Goodbye]

Vaguely town but not very strongly and wouldn't bet anything on it yet

I don't think scumreading morph is ai

[Shello and Goodbye]

if we yeet flower today and he flips scum we murder dannflor and bingle immediately btw

Bingle, sure. I actually think dann is town independant of sunflower and would fite that

Although honestly i'm not sure sunflower + bingle make so much sense together either, but i'll admit it has to do with how much Bingle may have read before so this isn't a great thought

[Shello and Goodbye]

Vaguely town but not very strongly and wouldn't bet anything on it yet

I don't think scumreading morph is ai

*ai for you, to clarify

[Shello and Goodbye]

Vaguely town but not very strongly and wouldn't bet anything on it yet

I don't think scumreading morph is ai

Huh.

If you’d said you were scumreading me I’d townread you for it.

I don't really know why you're expecting me to have any sort read on you tbh - it's been literally years since we played together. Like back then i used to be very good at interpretting penguin pop-ins but it's been a minute and i'm not sure i can do that anymore, which is why i haven't

You're playing in a way that is kind of surface-level scummy and attention-grabbing for sure but aren't using it to actually do anythihg with it

Like i can very easily see scum-you decide to push town-morph (*especially* if you wanted to change the directory of the day), but that's not where you're going with it, and it seems kind of silly for scum-you to declare a scumread on morph and then *not* do anything substantial with it

As i write this out it is kind of abt the morph read, i'm realizing, but less about the read itself and more abt what you're doing with it

But like i said it's not very confident and it could just be you were busy yesterday etc but in a vaccuum i probably think this isn't how you play this

[Shello and Goodbye]

if we yeet flower today and he flips scum we murder dannflor and bingle immediately btw

Bingle, sure. I actually think dann is town independant of sunflower and would fite that

Although honestly i'm not sure sunflower + bingle make so much sense together either, but i'll admit it has to do with how much Bingle may have read before so this isn't a great thought

I would never fite you <3 but i wouldnt be surprised if you were wrong!

I think he believes what he was writing abt morph, and there's a lot of nuance i think

Also has the vibe of - i was kind of holding this back b/c i really don't think this is going to go anywhere, i really do scumread them so i'm gonna say this anysays, even if it gains no traction, and damn the consequences

[Shello and Goodbye]

It’s more that in the past town me tended to trigger scumpings from you and I don’t think you would be conscious of that after this much time than anything else. Digging the in depth analysis though.

You do but i was actually cognizant of that, yeah, so just decided to ignore it

Like i said same thing with penguin, the pop-ins are pinging me a lot but i think i can't read them so i'm just whatever, i think he'll be more readable later

[Shello and Goodbye]

mafia love scumreads that don't go anywhere what

Generally yeah but i don't think this is how (competant) scum generally have a scumread on morph

[Shello and Goodbye]

mafia love scumreads that don't go anywhere what

Generally yeah but i don't think this is how (competant) scum generally have a scumread on morph

ok but if the goal of competent scum is to put a chip in the wall and get townread this is pretty much textbook since its literally achieving that strategic purpose.

if anything I think if you're town and you think this person is scum and they're very unlikely to come under pressure and many people are saying they're town and they have a strong town rep, you

don't

say it out loud because casting doubt on the alignment makes it LESS likely they get nightkilled and really brings you nothing strategically.

I don't really think about my reads (or when to share them) this way >.>

Also thinking abt it again i do think bingle could be a partner with sunflower

[Shello and Goodbye]

@skitter It’s kind of frustrating to me that that is a perfect description of how I feel about you and I don’t see a way around it.

How i'm describing you or how i'm describing penguin?

[Shello and Goodbye]

Do you really think me sussing morph is likely to prevent them being nightkilled if they’re town?

I was talking about Dannflor with Skitter in terms of the strategic implications of stating a scumread that you do not expect to go anywhere

Oh i thought we were talking abt bingle >.> not dann

Wrt dann - i mean fair enuf, but i think how he said it was townie, i felt like he really thinks this and is kinda dissappointed that he doesn't think it'll get traction

[Shello and Goodbye]

@skitter It’s kind of frustrating to me that that is a perfect description of how I feel about you and I don’t see a way around it.

How i'm describing you or how i'm describing penguin?

Me. I’m aware that I tend to scum read you so the gut scum pings are meh but also still there but also I don’t see a way forward that isn’t just “maybe it resolves itself” but also I want a way forward that isn’t just “maybe it resolves itself” and that’s annoying.

I think i tend to become more obviously town with time, generally.

I think penguin tends to be more readable in lategame when he feels like what he's posting matters (and iirc if he doesn't it's a scumtell for him), but yeah that's kind of where i'm at with you, hoping the future brings me somethijg i can be more confident on

[Shello and Goodbye]

Anyways i'm back to work after vacay for a week, so later

[Shello and Goodbye]

My general approach to morph rn is:
-> if they're town will likely die before elo
-> there are people here who can read both of them way better than me
-> i don't see them directing the thread towards something i find overly catastrophic/suspiciois/manipulative atm

So i'm kinda just letting them be atm, if one of those conditions changes will re-evaluate

Lightly townreading them, maybe, with a lot of caveats and kinda just want to take a wait and see approach

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Fwiw part of my approach is then proceeding to misread cabd in touhou also

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Figured it out at some point day1 pretty confidentally, i don't think i can pinpoint exactly where tho

But yeah i knew it was cabd and i was scumreading him

[Shello and Goodbye]

Fwiw part of my approach is then proceeding to misread cabd in touhou also

~ skitter

fwiw i thought it was rlly funny when I found out you were Sanae because her facial expression is exactly what I think your facial expression is when you read my posting in that game :3

>.>

[Shello and Goodbye]

But im still slughtly confused

That big post seems like discrediting morphs thoughts without actually pushing them.

Was the dephy stuff really such a shining star?

I think scum have a VERY hard time making that "realization" seem genuine and natural like they did. This coupled with the immediate transition into town locking certain players for their reactions to it (most of which I agreed with) felt very pro-Town.

I also liked them harping on Pooky for not understanding and them ultimately coming around to a Pooky townread based on his response.

I know ffery says I am overstating the mindmeld but the above is what sold me.

This is where I'm at with them.

I have experienced a game where scum!cabd crafted a series of crumbs for scum!marci to drop, for him to then spot, point at, call marci lock town for.

Which then garnered both cabd and marci town reads by both town!ffery and town!Notty.

If anyone could pull exactly what you are describing it would be cabd (he has done it before)

That is part of the reason why I think that a scum!morph puts scum!marci back on the table.

But all that being said, the overall reaction to my points leaves me feeling like falling back and letting them lead for the day is the right path.

So I think this kind of breaks down if there's a traitor in there, so i'm having a hard time seeing forming associative based reads on the hood

I do think marci is a lot more likely to be town in traitor-hood world thob

I'm kinda going back and forth on how I feel abt marci

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

wait what even are the points on morph as scum?

Spoiler:

1

Lack of methodological approach.

This is again what drew my attention to you super early in the game, where you appeared to miss the context of pooky's readlist.

It resurfaced with your Sunflower vote in 2099, where:

(1) you used sunflower's comment on hoods being swapped around against him, despite several other people having voiced the same theory, and him not being the the first one to say it. Even in the post you quoted, fire said that he "still" thinks that hood swapping makes sense, indicating that there was a prior discussion about the topic, but you did not follow up on that.

(2) you missed an entire page of people stating that Bingle's claim looked like a joke, and you simply took it at face value. Like, in order for you to make the claim in 2099, it would necessitate you having missed every single one of these posts?

Spoiler:

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

VOTE: Marcistar

U just said u can't vote!

U just said u can't vote!

No I didn’t.

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote

That doesn’t say I can’t vote.

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

Wait, hold on, this is actually a thing?

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

Bingle, you're the main character

I thought Bingle was joking.

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

Wait how do you know there are hoods plural?

p-edit: oh, maybe

i thought bingle was very definitely joking

I think bingle has never told a joke in mafia game ever.

p-edit: oh, maybe

I was not sure what to think about the claim, but yeah him voting 2 posts later made me assume that the claim was a joke.

]

2

Your interaction with me over my reads

I don't agree on a couple of your reads, which should be obvious. Those are the ones I'm mulling. Do you need me to prioritize getting back to you on it? I was going to wait until we have a chance to sync on new data first.

You feeling like you need to talk to cabd, before you could talk to me about my reads seems very out of character for how I think of town!ffery.

Like, our game experience, once you decided that I was town, we have literally started our own in thread neighborhood to work through our thoughts, and that came across as you being hesitant to just chat with me on my throughts despite having me as one of your strongest town reads.

And once you did respond to them with 2084, is felt like there was a lack of bite? Like, it did not feel like you were actually trying to challenge me on the things that you did not agree with me on, to work through the differences. You just kinda *pointed* at places where we differed.

3

Our conversation about time stamps

I feel like my posts about your history of timestamps resulted in you posting on the back foot. Like you did not know where it was going, and that worried you.

It actually gave me the opposite vibes of our interaction where I original town read you, because it felt almost like you were worried that it was leading to a read shift from me. It seemed like you wanted to enagage with me to keep a tabs on it, but didn't know the right steps to take because it was an unexpected conversation. And you basically came out and said that it was distracting to you

I find the arguments against SirCakez persuasive. The time gap between posts and also how they entered the thread looking like they were ready to solve but then vanished around the time they would have slipped. Also the idea that they would be spending time looking for how they knew that info.

inorite?

Luke do you think there's something to this?

To the cakez stuff? Or to Dunn repeating it back?

Because I am currently voting Cakez

I didn't internalize this because of wondering about your focus on

my

occasional timing focus.

4

Minor ping

inevitable 1v1.

Note that they JUST saw this exact scenario as scum in Midscummer's, from Dunn/Gif scum hydra against Alisae/Maria town hydra.

This post felt off.

It did not feel like it was engaging in a way to substantiate a new point, but just to egg on my thoughts. Strengthen my read. But still let the point be originating from me.

5

Cabd's recent interjections

Spoiler: relevant cabd posts

Null is always where scum puts morph when we are approaching UTR status.

Calling us scum puts a bunch of heat on from the rest of the folks town reading us and makes them effort a case.

Calling us town means admitting that we have legitimate concerns and having to more directly address and tango.

But calling our well over there hundred posts "null" means having to do neither of those things until forced from a different impetus and allows status quo riding along.

Sunflower won't case me but if they are town and genuinely scum reading me they think it's perfectly fine to let scum me have thread control for two whole game days. Lol nope.

(a townie actually scum reading me is shouting that shit from the rooftops and urging the thread to stop following me blindly damn the personal consequences.)

I mean if you're town and I'm scum it's called playing to your win condition.

You're once again more worried about the consequences and fallout of pushing me than you are actually wanting to protect the town from a scary deepwolf.

And I don't think you're a coward as town. So I'm left with the alternative. That you ARE playing to win con it's just not the one I have.

I know that cabd knows that you should not step in the way of a line of questioning, but he did it anyways. And the way that he did it does feel kinda bad faith as dann said. Or as I said

this would look a lot like you were trying to get ahead of anything sunflower might have to say, both to demoralize him and to discredit anything he did decide to put out.

That series of posts does set cabd up to either:

If Fireisredsir does not make a case, say "see, I told you he wouldn't do it," or
If fireisredsir does make a case say "He had to put it out there because of my posts saying that its a scum claim not to"

VOTE: morph

I reserve the right to feel differently in the morning.

So heres the thing, I had some cracking worries on morph, but still thought town, and it all kinda ramped up quickly last night.

I hated cabd's peanut gallery -> Typing out all of the things that had worried me actually strengthened them I wrote them -> And then I did not like ffery's response.

In particular her comments about the "engaging with me on my read" which felt like her general mindset of engaging with me is not what her general mindset I associate with town!ffery.

I think a lot of this is more 'ffery is sick' than anything ai tbh

[Shello and Goodbye]

wrong tab above. I decided not to post that but Dannflor changed my mind with his comment about neuterhalf's self-imposed time-out.

I think that read feels like an easy way to call towb scummy but leave room to backtrack. My immediate reaction was the two are unaligned.

maybe so. she touched right on part of what bugged me about spiffeh especially after our read 180'd.

spiffeh townread me in a dance game where basically ALL of town were scumreading me. The only players besides Spiffeh that I recall offhand expressing townreads were scum. I eventually got paranoid of him

because

he townread me.

skitter was in that game, town, and scumread me all the way to my flip, iirc. firebringer, too. fireisredsir, three. STD four, BELL!!??!! five.

This game dynamic is very, very different. I'm not trying to draw parallels. but it's probably weighing on me in small ways even so.

I'm still mostly reading the ydra head here. It makes sense for town-skitter to be more cautious about reading me here. It probably makes sense for scum-skitter to play it noncommital, too.

Also the bit that really made me suspicious of spiffeh was how he immediately started appealing to you after the 'cred-trade' thing

I feel a little better with how he explained his approach to you in this game but still not sure i'm sold he's town

[Shello and Goodbye]

i know this isn't a really popular take but i do think that how she outed the hood was kinda performative

[Shello and Goodbye]

I probably can vote Brian too

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

I literally don't even know what you're asking for here. You want me to explain why people have differing opinions on them? You want me to convince you of a read on them?

Sorry if its unclear, i want you to convince me of your read on them.

Y tho, they said they didn't really have one

[Shello and Goodbye]

I literally don't even know what you're asking for here. You want me to explain why people have differing opinions on them? You want me to convince you of a read on them?

Sorry if its unclear, i want you to convince me of your read on them.

Y tho, they said they didn't really have one

Im tired of ignoring the firebagel slot because of how hard it is to read them so i want to see if they have anything at all T_T

Fair enuf
Why'd you pick us tho

[Shello and Goodbye]

Can someone explain to it why people are suddenly swarming on Marci? From it's view nothing has changed from the reasons that made her town before?

I'm not sure I was solidly town on her before, and I'm resurfacing those thoughts

[Shello and Goodbye]

A lot of what marci is asking feels like she's trying to Ask and Do things, but the questions themselves feel forced and hollow idk

[Shello and Goodbye]

wrt marci i’m unsure if she’s a wolf still but i agree that she feels hollow regardless of alignment and i think that’s because like. earlier in the game she talked about how someone was helping her in another game etc and all that and i feel like… she’s trying to emulate that persons style or maybe effort or something? so while she’s doing things on the surface that are like productive questions in theory there’s not like the normal motivation underneath of it or understanding why people go through the processes of asking what they do in games etc

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

i’m uncertain of gypyx is a good wagon i feel like her most recent posts go against the grain of her meta being “wolf gypyx hates existing in a thread and it’s visible”, i think she has heard this enough to know she has to combat it tho but it doesn’t feel like a good vote

[Shello and Goodbye]

i like the cakez wagon i think he hasn’t had a lot of presence other than the slip kerfuffle (i think the info itself wasn’t gotten from Wolf Shenanigans if he is one tbh) but a part of me wonders if wolf cakez thinks the best thing to do when people are expecting content and he’s announced his great reading of the game is to make a sad little “stop posting please ;-;” post

however i feel the same way about brian’s flat out admitting that he’s voting he doesn’t wolfread in cakez lol. i think my standards for what a good wagonee is is probably too high because the compositions of each wagon don’t trouble me rlly

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

VOTE: cakez

i think this is an okay vote until he delivers better reasons to be town than the above, otherwise

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

i’m uncertain of gypyx is a good wagon i feel like her most recent posts go against the grain of her meta being “wolf gypyx hates existing in a thread and it’s visible”, i think she has heard this enough to know she has to combat it tho but it doesn’t feel like a good vote

I voted there because I feel like Gypyx only show up when she’s being talked about.

-Herr Mitt

hmmm i’ll check that
i do that too as town sometimes tbh

but also i feel like my bar for clearing her may be too low lol

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

on very fast skim… eh?

she really doesn’t seem that bothered so far but i dont think she’s faced as much scrutiny as others prior to her wagon starting

-ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

VOTE: gypyx

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

i think gypyx feels to me more like 1 player in a 22 player game than a member of a team of 5? players but it's not a strong read

do you mean that she’s town or something else

[Shello and Goodbye]

oh my...so many pages

Me when i see a dictionnary

this is the funniest post in the game

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

cakez waiting room

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

i also do wonder if i’m over correcting for being really right on cakez once and then missing everytime after too

- ydra

[Shello and Goodbye]

random thing but

I feel like I probably shouldn't be town reading oblivion

Oooooh can you talk abt this more please?

Also i probably rather vote cakez or brian (or bagel) than gypyx but sorting it out with ydra

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

i want to join cakez because wagons but i also want gypyx and she's just so close to being a competing wagon

hold the line penguin...hold the line.

VOTE: gypyx

Three dueling wagons is like 2 dueling wagons but with more room for backroom duels.

What does this even mean?

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

VOTE: cakez
We're kind of ambivalent on voting cakez/brian tbh

I'm leaning towarss gypyx not being scum
~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

Ydra voted gypyx
I'm not really scumreading gypyx
Talked to ydra
Changed the vote

To clarify

~ skitter

[Shello and Goodbye]

i voted more for want of a vote than a strong read earlier

i don’t have any really strong wolfreads, mostly townreads and the three most current wagons were varying degrees of meh to me so skitter not wanting one means there’s no resistance from me to change it

- ydra