Shell Game (Day 4)

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Fire

[Dunnstral]

For legal reasons, the above ambiguous vote was a joke

VOTE: Firebringer

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Firebagel

[Dunnstral]

what I really need is someone to tell me how many mafia there are so I can set proper odds

5 is most likely for 22 players.

[Dunnstral]

I'm with the third best fire on that one, actually.

I have tonal whiplash.

I'm not sure how you can say this based on what I have posted so far.

[Dunnstral]

I'm with the third best fire on that one, actually.

I have tonal whiplash.

I'm not sure how you can say this based on what I have posted so far.

Your posts are landing kinda flat.

That does not sound out of character for me as town early.

[Dunnstral]

My thoughts so far:

Sunflower in post 13 struck me the wrong way as I wasn't expecting that post from fireisredsir, and then they had a lot of filler type posts. They then call me towny and I'm not sure what they are basing that off of either with the 4 posts I had before.

ActionDan's post 86 rubs me the wrong way because I don't agree and don't know how they reached their conclusions. Perhaps they can explain.

[Dunnstral]

I am leaning towards believing that Pooky is a town ascetic

[Dunnstral]

I am leaning towards believing that Pooky is a town ascetic

Eyebrows raised, pinky twirled, chamomile served, tell me over tea.

I find the claim believable, and it is something that can be (dis)proven. I don't believe scum ascetic is a common role, while it a semi-common negative utility role for the town.

Third party is a possibility as well.

[Dunnstral]

My thoughts so far:

Sunflower in post 13 struck me the wrong way as I wasn't expecting that post from fireisredsir, and then they had a lot of filler type posts. They then call me towny and I'm not sure what they are basing that off of either with the 4 posts I had before.

ActionDan's post 86 rubs me the wrong way because I don't agree and don't know how they reached their conclusions. Perhaps they can explain.

It... is a little concerned by this. Ignoring the part about Sunflower, what part of ActionDan's posting was strangely reached to you? This slot is calling the player who scumclaimed as an opening scum, which it thinks doesn't need much explination? Certainly there's ways to end up on either side of that read but explaining?

You appear to be an experienced player, can you explain to it why this read in particular is rubbing you the wrong way for not explaining their conclusions when half of it appears somewhat Face Value to it?

I did not say I was suspecting ActionDan for not explaining their conclusions; I said that I don't agree with their conclusions, and perhaps they can explain so I know where they are coming from.

I feel I've discussed ActionDan's entire post already; I disagree with their townread and don't know where they got to the scumread (I would say null on Firebagel myself).

[Dunnstral]

My thoughts so far:

Sunflower in post 13 struck me the wrong way as I wasn't expecting that post from fireisredsir, and then they had a lot of filler type posts. They then call me towny and I'm not sure what they are basing that off of either with the 4 posts I had before.

ActionDan's post 86 rubs me the wrong way because I don't agree and don't know how they reached their conclusions. Perhaps they can explain.

Sunflower is because of forces outside the main thread. I will not explain that at this time, but may before the day is through.

Firebagel was because as an alt that may very well only exist for the purpose of stealing Firebringer's scum claiming gimmick, it hadn't posted for a page.

OK. Why is not posting for a page scummy?

[Dunnstral]

Jesus... is the site lagging super hard for anyone else?

Yes it has been really bad for me

[Dunnstral]

Theres a like ..5..? Idk how to count! Person hood and we got info that suggests scums in the hood.

I think this hood should claim members. If it is known that mafia is there then they already know about it, and it is useful mechanical information

[Dunnstral]

Also what "buff"?

[Dunnstral]

Would we know if it happens?

[Dunnstral]

I think saying 0 or 1 makes sense because if there are 2 or more it is perhaps too easy to trigger it.

[Dunnstral]

Klick are you ignoring the neighborhood info and doing your own thing with your read lists?

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

which probably makes sunflower town because 149 is the type of post to make it look like you're sorting someone and get town read by the person you are pushing it isn't the type of post you make to push a scum buddy

Ok the site is too laggy for me to keep refreshing the thread so I will instead devote my time to casing someone on page 6!

I have similar concerns about fireisredsir.

*WE* have concerns, simultaneously and independently!


Fire seems to have taken the "Jupiter in a scum slot fluffyness" and made it a part of himself right now. And I don't like it one little itty bitty bit.

Grrrrrrr.

i was fluffier entering kemusan which you both saw so this is an interesting take

:blossom:

What has snagged your attention so far?

actiondan is interesting to me. feel safe leaning town for now i think although scum is possible

pooky a little towny

dunn a little towny although his willingness to elaborate so much on reads already was quite surprising to me. i don't think it's scummy though, just surprising

y'all i think feel eager to dig into things which is probably a good enough sign for now that id rather let you do that, although i think the point on me is one that feels misapplied

if i were to put a bet on a scum rn i think id guess STD. that's based on almost nothing however id still take the pookybucks

firebagel feels likely to be readable given time so not worried there rn

:blossom:

I don't like either of the above from Sunflower

The first deflects morph's (imo valid) point about their fluffiness by mentioning one game where they were fluffy early on as town. By mentioning this, it demonstrates that they are aware of their town meta and therefore should have no problem replicating it, so I'm not sure the purpose of even saying this other than to try to get morph off their back.

The second post feels like scum artificially inflating the word count to look like they have substantial thoughts, idk how to really articulate it but it feels insecure to me. The ActionDan read is basically "I think town but he could be scum" which is very non-committal, so what's the point of including it in the first place? The comments about morph and STD follow this same pattern, though less explicitly. It feels like they felt the need to pad their response to morph to make it look like they were thinking about the game critically and it resulted into a bunch of "reads" that don't actually tell me anything.

These, along with their not so stellar (but not quite irredeemable!) early posts makes me happy with my vote on them.

@Sunflower:
1. What makes morph and Dunn's takes about your fluffiness "interesting" and how does this inform your read on them?
2. Can you go into more detail on the ActionDan read?

Compare to recently ended scum-spiff scumcase on town early D1:

my self-involved reason for scum reading Koishi has to do with their treatment of me ever since 2.0 replaced in and that feeling hasn’t ever been absolved.

i also never townread their predecessor.

buddying town reads can very much be a play style thing but the bulk of their ISO, as many others have pointed out, is less progressing the game forward and more positioning and endearing themselves to people, more performative than gamesolvey.

i don’t have their ISO open but I remember noticing there’s been a couple times where they’ve praised myself (and others?) for certain posts because they were able to get a lot out of it or something, which is a safe way look like you’re analyzing the game without revealing your thoughts or making a stance. to be fair, my recent questioning into this did generate a decent response about their thoughts on Yuuka and admittedly gave me town feels.

before sharing their thoughts on Yuuka yesterday i could not tell you one scum read that Koishi held. and even prior to this Yuuka was just middle of the road for them. while my poor reading comprehension could be a contributing factor, struggling to identify the scum reads of the player with the highest post count is concerning and again points more toward scum putting on a show of genuineness and effort

this is why i’m looking forward to their wall posts on some of their not-town reads

these are my thoughts off the top of my head so they are a bit scattered but result in a scum read. i will admit i felt some glimmers of towniness from my interactions with Koishi yesterday which is why i swapped back to Kagerou, but i’m done allowing minor town pings distract me from a body of work that is scummy overall.

I’m fine with either being eliminated

So are they town or mafia here?

[Dunnstral]

I am in agreement with thinking 1 or 0 mafia in the other neighborhood. Last night my gut was to say Marci and Actiondan were town. I do think it was overall positive that the hood was revealed. Klick's response seemed fine. Dannflor did make a point about ActionDan pushing Marci that I am considering.

Marci the answer to why would the mod tell you if there were no mafia would be mod wifom. Also somebody mentioned unclaimed mechanics still?

[Dunnstral]

"they" being Spiffy?

Yes thanks I didn't know what you were trying to say. I think Spiffeh looks a little sus in our hood and I think Herr mitt crab looks towny

[Dunnstral]

I think shello is town

Firebagel feels awkward and stilted as scum in a way that I'm not sensing here and is probably town too

This is Firebagel's first game on this account. Are you privy to secret knowledge or is this some kind of reaction test?

[Dunnstral]

I think that the following players have achieved a day 1 pass from me so far:

morph the cat (fferyllt & Cabd)
Firebringer
marcistar
Oblivion
Save The Dragons
Ydrasse
Cat Scratch Fever

Sorted by playerlist order, not strength of read. Although, I think that Marci is the only one that has a greater then day 1 pass atm.

Can I ask why for players other than Marci here?

[Dunnstral]

Also is skitter30 still on the table?

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral I was just about to passionately explain why I was townreading you after reading up on what I skimmed over but now you've lost that privilege due to your shenanigans

I don't think I did that much.

Would it be correct to say you'd prefer not to be posting in our neighborhood?

[Dunnstral]

Can I ask why for players other than Marci here?

morph the cat (fferyllt & Cabd) -- the way that ffery uno reverse carded my questioning in order to instead get a read on me jedi mind tricked me into thinking she could be town.

Firebringer -- I liked the dichotomy presented in 384, where he shot down the assertion that you have been tonally off this game, but then doubled down on the fact that he is leaning scum on you for unrelated reasons. I also agree with his tonal take fwiw, your tone has seemed innocuous to me.

marcistar

Oblivion -- I liked the way it jumped into serious questioning early, and liked the prods being made. I also liked the way it prodded at people town reading it. And just its general tone while rebuffing CSF's suspicions.

Save The Dragons -- probably the silliest one, and one I would have left unsaid and just waited for newer and better reasons to town/scum read them if not asked, but it was him leaving a wagon with the naked morph vote, followed by 365 saying it was just for funzies. My heart said that that was town.

Ydrasse -- I still vibe with her opening post being townie, her immediate suspicion on me reminded me of our last game together where she was suspicious of me for giving her early town points for *vibes,* and then our back and forth on fireisred sir felt right.

Cat Scratch Fever -- Miller claim + I liked the way they questioned Oblivion, even if I disagreed with it, it looked kinda genuine to me.

Thumbs up. Do you think miller claims are more likely to come from town?

[Dunnstral]

I think shello is town

Firebagel feels awkward and stilted as scum in a way that I'm not sensing here and is probably town too

This is Firebagel's first game on this account. Are you privy to secret knowledge or is this some kind of reaction test?

Wait what?????

They are using meta on you and you seem to be a secret alt account. Where is their meta coming from?

I see they later said they are guessing at who you are.

[Dunnstral]

I think i tr dannfloor but its very weak sauce.

I saw people arguing over pooky. Thats fucking wild and i want to say no. The pookys readlist? Animal crew? Clearly jokes why is it 3ven being debated.

Dunnstral is it actually just wifom? Im so confused but what does everyone else feel?
IM REALLY FUCKING SCARED FOR MAFIA TO GET A BUFF I WANNA ELIMINATE THAT POSSIBILITY SO BADLY.
my hoodmates are also trying to explqin this fyi, but like idk...

I also tr someone else abd i forg9t who it was uwu

It

could

be wifom. It is possible that there is mafia in your hood - there really isn't enough to go off of to say for certain so far. I think having 2 or more mafia would make it difficult to shut off the buff, and on the flip side perhaps put the scum team in an awkward spot if they have that much attention on them from design early.

So I agree with the people who are saying 0 or 1 mafia. The thing is they aren't saying there is 0 for sure, just acknowledging the possibility that there could be.

[Dunnstral]

idk last time i saw marci prematurely hint/claim a really good role she was scum

VOTE: Dannflor

[Dunnstral]

Subject: Mini Normal 2314 - The Mafia Have a Cop [END]

yeah im a loyal neighbourizer :(

Why would you claim this?

i wanted drew to know that im not the mailman?

idk and i thought everyone would sus me so it would be better to claim it sooner rather than later right? more time to marinate in the info

Actually Dannflor is correct

UNVOTE: Dannflor

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Sunflower

This one maybe, I had bad feelings about those votes on Marci

For Sunflower I was a little off-put about how they reacted to Morph vs how they reacted to me when there was early suspicion, and they say it was because my read was more "gut"

did you think dannflor was lying...?

I thought they were trying to take advantage of the situation but the meta they linked was pretty clear - moreso than what I expected, so I decided to back off

It's still possible that they are trying to take advantage of the situation

[Dunnstral]

I think i tr dannfloor but its very weak sauce.

I saw people arguing over pooky. Thats fucking wild and i want to say no. The pookys readlist? Animal crew? Clearly jokes why is it 3ven being debated.

Dunnstral is it actually just wifom? Im so confused but what does everyone else feel?
IM REALLY FUCKING SCARED FOR MAFIA TO GET A BUFF I WANNA ELIMINATE THAT POSSIBILITY SO BADLY.
my hoodmates are also trying to explqin this fyi, but like idk...

I also tr someone else abd i forg9t who it was uwu

It

could

be wifom. It is possible that there is mafia in your hood - there really isn't enough to go off of to say for certain so far. I think having 2 or more mafia would make it difficult to shut off the buff, and on the flip side perhaps put the scum team in an awkward spot if they have that much attention on them from design early.

So I agree with the people who are saying 0 or 1 mafia. The thing is they aren't saying there is 0 for sure, just acknowledging the possibility that there could be.

Ahh! I get it now thanks.

But why suggest 0 or 1 before everyone has even talked?

The 0 or 1 is a mechanical assumption, not based on reads of other players

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Sunflower

This one maybe, I had bad feelings about those votes on Marci

For Sunflower I was a little off-put about how they reacted to Morph vs how they reacted to me when there was early suspicion, and they say it was because my read was more "gut"

did you think dannflor was lying...?

:blossom:

I thought they were trying to take advantage of the situation but the meta they linked was pretty clear - moreso than what I expected, so I decided to back off

It's still possible that they are trying to take advantage of the situation

how do you think they would take advantage of the situation? like is it just him saying she did it in a prior game to push her here or is there anymore?
and did you have a read of dann b4 that?

I was mostly neutral on Dannflor, it felt like they would be taking advantage of similar suspicion on Marcistar to push Marcistar. It's not about lying with the meta, it's saying that they did something similar with no context to feed into suspicions. I changed my mind when I looked at what they linked (about Dannflor, not about Marci)

Speaking of which, Marci, why did you claim so quickly?

[Dunnstral]

For Sunflower I was a little off-put about how they reacted to Morph vs how they reacted to me when there was early suspicion, and they say it was because my read was more "gut"

why do you think this makes me more likely to be scum

:blossom:

I feel you were being more wary of Morph as if you were more afraid of them and so that's why you responded more in depth to them. And you had already called me town so maybe it was harder to pivot away from that.

[Dunnstral]

Is this what theyve been meaning to say in the hood
Theyve said mechanics and roles and stuff

So its not based on anythibg except assumptions? Fucking L i guess my read on actiondan isnt so concrete then.

Probably, but I'm not in your hood so they could mean something different. That is how I am looking at it though.

[Dunnstral]

people keep being overly eager to paint meta reads off incomplete/inaccurate data with no shame or concern whatsoever and the fact that some of them are doing it as town is annoying

I've been called both lackluster and tryharding so far

[Dunnstral]

people keep being overly eager to paint meta reads off incomplete/inaccurate data with no shame or concern whatsoever and the fact that some of them are doing it as town is annoying

:blossom:

I've been called both lackluster and tryharding so far

both words are kinda accurate ngl

I would disagree

[Dunnstral]

i think marci is scum lol

What made you say this?

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral I was just about to passionately explain why I was townreading you after reading up on what I skimmed over but now you've lost that privilege due to your shenanigans

I don't think I did that much.

Would it be correct to say you'd prefer not to be posting in our neighborhood?

Yes.

I will utilize the neighborhood more during Night phases, but don't really care enough to check it often during the Day when we have the actual game thread.

Do you want to talk to me about why you called that one post scummy with no explanation? Is there anything I've presented in the thread you that also rubbed you the wrong way, or is your scum read on me based primarily on my neighborhood activity?

I'm not sure if I feel that way anymore if I consider that you were going along with a bit regarding Firebringer being mafia, but you were over-the-top and said what if you were faking your read on them without specifying if you actually were in response to Herr Mitt's criticisms of you - and generally I felt you ignored us talking about the other neighborhood too.

[Dunnstral]

people keep being overly eager to paint meta reads off incomplete/inaccurate data with no shame or concern whatsoever and the fact that some of them are doing it as town is annoying

this is especially annoying when ur scum and the meta reads are accurate imo

i was referring to reads on other people as the ones that annoyed me

:blossom:

This response is perhaps too self conscious based off of what Dannflor said. It wasn't pointed at you but you feel defensive about it.

[Dunnstral]

people keep being overly eager to paint meta reads off incomplete/inaccurate data with no shame or concern whatsoever and the fact that some of them are doing it as town is annoying

:blossom:

I've been called both lackluster and tryharding so far

It's possible to be both. Even simultaneously.

Thanks

[Dunnstral]

OH YEAH THE OTHER PERSON I TR IS FIREBRINGER.
I AGREE WITH OTHERS AND I LIKE THEIR "dunnstral feels fake in hood"

ur not even in the hood. what if im making stuff up

Why would nobody call you out on it then? (:

It is an opinion.

[Dunnstral]

people keep being overly eager to paint meta reads off incomplete/inaccurate data with no shame or concern whatsoever and the fact that some of them are doing it as town is annoying

this is especially annoying when ur scum and the meta reads are accurate imo

i was referring to reads on other people as the ones that annoyed me

:blossom:

This response is perhaps too self conscious based off of what Dannflor said. It wasn't pointed at you but you feel defensive about it.

it was absolutely pointed at me wdym

:blossom:

My thoughts were that you reacted to Dannflor saying it's especially annoying when you're scum and assumed they were talking about you.

Thouh I can see how you could interperet it as Dannflor taking a jab at you.

[Dunnstral]

hold up something very funny is happening you all are less important than the hood

:blossom:

Why post this?

[Dunnstral]

YALL I FINALLY REALIZED WHAT MY HOODMATES WERE SAYING

THATS SO SLAY.

I think theres exactly 1 scum in my hood.

Do you have a good reason to believe there is 1 and not 0?

Because if you do, I believe it is correct to eliminate inside of your neighborhood

But if you don't, that's not necessarily correct (my vote on Sunflower being unrelated to the hood, really)

[Dunnstral]

Don't tell us what was claimed in there, but who claimed first?

[Dunnstral]

Also is anything provable?

[Dunnstral]

So we should be eliminating outside of that hood today, is what I'm hearing.

[Dunnstral]

Yeah we can slow down.

The neighborhood should collectively decide whether we should eliminate within them or outside of them today since they have more information available to them.

I do think the time limit is probably not going to trigger on the first night, just off of game design

[Dunnstral]

So we should be eliminating outside of that hood today, is what I'm hearing.

I'd rather kill the scum in our hood

ok cool

[Dunnstral]

In the role pm theres listed 4 options and theres 5 of us.

what does this even mean

We think each town got 1 option. And that scums aware and trying to blend in.

If you each have a different option, mafia would have to be ccing one person

[Dunnstral]

In the role pm theres listed 4 options and theres 5 of us.

what does this even mean

We think each town got 1 option. And that scums aware and trying to blend in.

If you each have a different option, mafia would have to be ccing one person

Since we sont know which one we have. We cant cc eachother until we prove it.

OK. To me from this it sounds like we should be letting people prove it and then proceeding to a 1v1 cc tomorrow. But I also understand that scum likely has interference and things would not be so easy, in reality.

[Dunnstral]

A playerlist of this caliber*

I mean I think most of us can put together "five players similar roles" and get the obvious answer regardless. So the not morph cat is already out of the deathy bag.

Yeah, I get it.

We should probably kill in that hood.

I think the hood should have a HUGE say in whether that's the right direction.

Yes I agree. They have more information than us and I don't think it is right to force claims. And there are competent mechanics players in that pt for sure.

[Dunnstral]

firing the cops

say no more. you have my vote. can't trust em

[Dunnstral]

I think I have erred in quoting that, actually. But maybe I am wrong in my current vote

UNVOTE:

[Dunnstral]

Ideally I’d like more players to react to see who is and isn’t aware of what’s going on. This removes the opportunity.

Chuck Rab

This is town annoyance and you can fite me if you don't agree.

Hermit Crab is among my top townreads

[Dunnstral]

Klick, does 49 from Sunflower sway you one way or another?

[Dunnstral]

let me know when you guys have solved the game

I am sensing annoyance at things happening behind closed doors. There is stuff to do out here too: Analyze reactions, who seems genuine and who seems insincere? Who is pretending?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Sunflower

[Dunnstral]

That is a good catch.

[Dunnstral]

My guess is that if the Dethy isn't solved by the end of D2 then the entire Dethy hood gets eliminated.
It is a very spicy guess, I'm aware.

-Herr Mitt.

I very much doubt this, this would be a huge penalty to town

[Dunnstral]

They only gave me three others, double traitor be wack.

Interesting.

a game with 2 dethy hoods and 2 traitors would be lit ngl

I mean yeah, that sounds fun but sadly I don't think Ceph did that here.

I do not think our other 6 person hood is a deathy.

[Dunnstral]

Though there is likely mafia in here, just based on numbers.

[Dunnstral]

I have a mental model for how I think a traitor would play.

Basically, if the mafia team is considering killing you, you're doing something wrong

[Dunnstral]

Can we get a council vote on whether edifying is a town or scum word?

[Dunnstral]

It would be super powerful for a goon to be able to tell their team who the cops of unknown sanities are, though

So, uh, would you say that that would incentivize a traitor to out the full list of people in the hood to the main thread...?

Two games isn't a ton of experience, but that's not what I've seen two traitors do in my dethy games. One traitor arguably played terribly though.

I'm trying to think more "writ large", but it kinda feels like staring into a hall of mirrors.

Im not thinking in large terms. Im thinking in marci terms atm.

I buy that Marci would be excited and out information as town.

I'm not sure what Marci would do as a traitor.

[Dunnstral]

marci is the absolute last person I would kill in that hood.

Chuck Rab

I agree with this

I think we should maybe give ActionDan a chance to post before rushing forward into anything

[Dunnstral]

The answer is always the first person who claims paranoid.

- Herr Mitt

and they said dragons was who first instigated the discussion, which I lean more town on.

Are these contradictory opinions, or am I misinterpreting something?

[Dunnstral]

there can only be one dannnn

[Dunnstral]

Why those opinions?

[Dunnstral]

That is at Spiffeh

[Dunnstral]

Who are these people who townread those posts?

[Dunnstral]

idk guys

i dont see anything really wrong with the posts (his whole iso)?

but i agree it isnt giving much

I want you to think about what it means if we have four guaranteed Town In a group of five. And most of us have a few very strong reeds of town outside of those five. I know it's a 22-player game but the available space for scum is shrinking rapidly and just okay isn't good enough.

Ok so there is little room for scum to hide.

but also it looks like brian skies is pretty afk. its possible for an easy push that way so im a bit wary.

more than brian skies, i am concerned about dunnstral, esp if actiondan winds up being the scum in the hood. dunnstral is easily more active and i can see some reasons here, though i understand the associations im building makes me biased.

bwuh

[Dunnstral]

idk guys

i dont see anything really wrong with the posts (his whole iso)?

but i agree it isnt giving much

I want you to think about what it means if we have four guaranteed Town In a group of five. And most of us have a few very strong reeds of town outside of those five. I know it's a 22-player game but the available space for scum is shrinking rapidly and just okay isn't good enough.

Ok so there is little room for scum to hide.

but also it looks like brian skies is pretty afk. its possible for an easy push that way so im a bit wary.

more than brian skies, i am concerned about dunnstral, esp if actiondan winds up being the scum in the hood. dunnstral is easily more active and i can see some reasons here, though i understand the associations im building makes me biased.

bwuh

what?

I am expressing my shock.

[Dunnstral]

Just fire, and to answer him it is unnecessary.

I am not the arbiter of why scum would claim Miller after ascetic, only that it does not fit the setup as I see it.

What was your view on the setup when you doubted the miller claim?

[Dunnstral]

Point fingers? Who is mafia?

[Dunnstral]

didn't you dislike the miller claim before you realized the whole dethy things?

or do I have the timeline wrong?

I was on this same line of questioning. Except I have a different reaction from Morph; is this not a scum slip? Actionsan would have been aware of the dethy before it was brought up in the hood.

[Dunnstral]

So aren't they lying about their thought process, basically

[Dunnstral]

Just fire, and to answer him it is unnecessary.

I am not the arbiter of why scum would claim Miller after ascetic, only that it does not fit the setup as I see it.

What was your view on the setup when you doubted the miller claim?

I was close to certain we had 4 cops on a cycle of reliabilites plus one scum of some sort (cop inventor or not)

Pedit. I believe I contemporaneously more or less figured out the setup when the Miller was claimed from memory.

But how did you know that before it was claimed in your hood?

[Dunnstral]

What is a "cred trade"?

[Dunnstral]

I also do not like Spiffeh's post because it is ignoring the unfolding claim of motivations From ActionDan where the thought process does not quite line up IMO, and they are instead looking at something else to make their argument

[Dunnstral]

From experience mafia tend to approach things a little bit differently.

Imagine if one group is told to draw a bee and another group is told to draw an insect. Spiffeh is just approaching things slightly differently.

I've had some success with this tell too.

[Dunnstral]

Actiondan I still do not fully understand your position.

You claim that you had figured out that there were 4 unreliable cops at around the same time the miller had claimed.

However, it seems that everybody else in the hood only figured this out once they started claiming amongst themselves; and this happens quite a bit later on the timeline.

So how did you figure out that there were 4 unreliable cops before the claims?

[Dunnstral]

Dannflor why did you not point at me when saying that anybody excited would be mafia?

[Dunnstral]

Your confidence in Actiondan being town feels out of place. And you are approaching your read on them in a way I find unnatural.

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

I don't think that ActionDan's stance on the miller being off is a smoking gun, and in fact I am going to keep voting for Sunflower in all likelihood. I do think that ActionDan's perspective as they claim it is wonky as it feels like they are confusing the order things have happened.

[Dunnstral]

luke my boy who do you think is mafia rn im too lazy to look at the vote count

I'm currently on Actiondan.

VOTE: actiondan

i haven't read a thing this guy has posted but I'm here for you homie

This is your latest vote, correct?

[Dunnstral]

You are voting for Actiondan.

[Dunnstral]

I thought you wanted people to push what they believe in?

[Dunnstral]

Spiffeh just seems towny to me. I haven't critically analysed my own thought process there, and doing so seems like busywork instead of legitimately helpful when no one is actually voicing a scumread on Spiffeh

This is not true. I am scumreading Spiffeh. Morph is scumreading Spiffeh.

[Dunnstral]

But I think CSF is an easy read and I'm waiting for her to show that she's not scum

I'm just kind of not convinced at all by Luke's perspective so far

This explanation is sort of a non-explanation, as well.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Klick

[Dunnstral]

I do not buy your perspective. You are clearing some players too easily and not paying attention to others. I do not think you have believable scumreads, except for Sunflower

[Dunnstral]

What makes you think that I have any scumreads aside from Sunflower?

In post 371 you agree that strikethroughs are your townreads and bolded names are your scumreads/concerns.

You also clearly split up your list.

Who do you think im clearing too easily?

Spiffeh, Pooky, Oblivion, ActionDan, Firebagel, Brian Skies, Firebringer

If you are locking someone as town for 1 post they made in the first few pages of the game I do not find that believable at this point.

[Dunnstral]

i wanna explain things but some people don't like that for some reason zzzzzzzzz

:blossom:

Does this response seem off to you too, morph? Context was right around the whole dethy reveal.

Pretty much everything is out now so they should feel comfortable sharing now

[Dunnstral]

Okay this is... an overeaction and a half. What is it even meant to say? It is clearly trying to speak about the manner in which you approach the game. The only player here being personally insulting, from its view, is you.

no this is a dirty filthy lie and you know it

you knew exactly what you were doing when you decided to call me "slimy/conman/etc"

if you wanted to ask if this is how I play the game you could simply have said some shit like "does he always play like this?" or "what are some of his completed games I could have as a meta check"

instead you went straight to insulting to troll me and get a reaction because thats the type of person you are and I find it absolutely insufferable and DOUBLY so because now you're trying to pretend like you weren't trying to insult me to my face.

FWIW I'm with you here, they did start calling you names

[Dunnstral]

I'm reading through Oblivion posts and I am confused about them continuously referencing me. My impression is that they were way back in the thread, around page 7 or so, but they keep making references to me and I'm not sure where there read on me is coming from. And then they talk about Spiffeh in relation to me and I believe that is way ahead in the thread.

Also sort of confused as to where their initial suspicion on me came from.

[Dunnstral]

You're voting him. Apparently based on the miller thing. Is there more?

Well I think the timeline of events makes it sus unless i am misunderstanding how things went.
I think actiondan was saying CSF before the outing of neighborhood, miller doesn't make sense until dan found out that there is cops. He then went to "that doesn't make sense with the creativity of game, which is weird for him to say imo because that implies understanding the game setup in some deeper way or what cephrir would design. Both seem fishy to me.

I also just think actiondan is the least townie of that whole neighborhood.

I agree that the timeline here has not been fully explained

[Dunnstral]

You're voting him. Apparently based on the miller thing. Is there more?

Well I think the timeline of events makes it sus unless i am misunderstanding how things went.
I think actiondan was saying CSF before the outing of neighborhood, miller doesn't make sense until dan found out that there is cops. He then went to "that doesn't make sense with the creativity of game, which is weird for him to say imo because that implies understanding the game setup in some deeper way or what cephrir would design. Both seem fishy to me.

I also just think actiondan is the least townie of that whole neighborhood.

i feel this make less sense when i reread it.

No it does. Or at least it's on the right track. See 888. Maybe we are talking about slightly different things, and I ended up voting for Sunflower/Klick over ActionDan regardless of noticing this as I said I'm not sure it's a smoking gun.

[Dunnstral]

What makes you think that I have any scumreads aside from Sunflower?

In post 371 you agree that strikethroughs are your townreads and bolded names are your scumreads/concerns.

You also clearly split up your list.

Additional context that readers might want to know:

I find value in it being ambiguous. I like to experiment with different methods of expressing my thoughts on the game. I also enjoy extracting information out of how people engage with different levels of ambiguity vs straightforwardness. I often find that some people's assumptions about things like that are pretty closely attached to alignment.

I'll occasionally shift how willing I am to highlight someone in one direction or another just to try it out and see what will happen

And it's that way in part to avoid people trying to get little gotchas by interpreting things however suits their agenda, instead of trying to understand.

OK. My answer for "why do I think that" is because you presented it that way, intentionally. So I'm not really sure where you were going with this.

[Dunnstral]

There is a third hood

Just two that we are aware of.

[Dunnstral]

FWIW I'm with you here, they did start calling you names

What the heck dude, are you trying to rekindle this fight? We don't need this.

No I was lending my support.

[Dunnstral]

Drivers?

In discord before game even filled we were debating what shell game means

Heads up, not everybody has access to said discord so you probably shouldn't be referencing it

Can any of cakez hoodmates ask where he is?

Im pretty sure he said pregame that he thought this wouldnt fill for awhile so i think hes maybe busy but i miss him!

Being in a hood gives us no special insight for this. Though he's popped in with a greeting at this point, shortly after your post here.

[Dunnstral]

people keep being overly eager to paint meta reads off incomplete/inaccurate data with no shame or concern whatsoever and the fact that some of them are doing it as town is annoying

:blossom:

Who are you sub tweeting here?

spiffeh and morph mostly

i think there was a third that made it feel like a pattern but idr who

:blossom:

Have you considered that I was using my admittedly flimsy meta read on Ydra as an entry point to engage with her and see if others felt the same way as me about the things that DO bother me?

(I recognize this is an unfair thing to assume that you would catch, but the above is approximately 40% of the reason I presented that post in the way that I did!)

Also which of the two of us are "doing it as town"?

I kinda think ActionDan is Town?

Does he really continue to double down on the miller thing as scum when it’s clearly rubbing people the wrong way and worsening his already vulnerable position?

spiffeh this wa mostly what i was talking about for how you felt defensive in the first post and in the second for your tone (i don’t think i explicitly said this) feeling a bit insincere at times - it’s like you’re going WOW guys i can’t BELIEVE this. film students first acting moment sort of vibes lol

i’m not feeling this as much this morning though. i don’t know if you were wolf if you would keep after me so much and so specifically. i think wolves can have pet projects that make them look busy but idk right now i think you’re maybe being sincere about your concerns @ me

Film student first acting also describes how I felt about a post they made earlier in the neighborhood, which I believe I talked about

[Dunnstral]

Maria is in this game?

yeah she is one of the heads to the anon hydra

This is not true

[Dunnstral]

I'm going to refresh tonight. I had a really stressful time last night and this morning, and some of that was due to this game, but most of that was external and me projecting that into this.

I'm finding the push on myself overwhelming. I don't particularly like or enjoy playing to expectation. I also dislike the infrequent-but-significant wagon that grows on me early D1 simply for playing the way I play amongst certain groups of players.

If you have a question that you like, really really care about getting answered, ping me and I'll give it some attention before I refresh. But what I'd like to do tonight after the kids are asleep is go through and get a clearer perspective on the game.

I think I'm quite happy with the actual reads I've developed so far, but I'm going to make an effort to be more transparent as to the reasoning behind most of my reads. Some might change with reflection. My concern is that a number of people are going to poke and prod and otherwise invalidate my attempts at showing my work, not due to its actual content or potential accuracy, but simply due to disagreements in process. I'm not interested in getting into lengthy debates about the accuracy of my opinions or process, unless the goal is genuinely to come to a shared understanding on someone's alignment.


With that out of the way, see you all in like 3ish hours maybe

I do have a question for you. You were told that there were 4 sanities of cop that exist in this game, or something similar, correct? And yet there are 5 players claiming cop inventor in your neighborhood. How do you then believe that there could be 0 mafia in your neighborhood?

[Dunnstral]

This game requires you to have an anticheat software that runs at level 0 (kernel mode) of your computer and has to be active from the moment you launch your computer.

It's too invasive for me to consider playing that game. Very good at it's job, I'm sure, but with this level of access I'd expect to be playing in a tournament or something, for real money, not a casual game.

[Dunnstral]

I have decided that I do not believe what I do not see, regardless of what the other people in the hood says.

VOTE: STD

-Herr Mitt

Why me over someone like sircakez or bingle? Because you want to solve the hood or?

Do you think we should be going after Sircakez/Bingle?

[Dunnstral]

yeah sure

Demonstrate an open mind even once with it and it will engage with you again.

Continue to write in posts like the above which show zero attempt to engage with it in good faith or even attempt to consider its alignment, it will ignore you. Your post was aggressive, condescending and needlessly cruel/mean. Why would it bother?

It's pretty simple math, frankly. Why would it waste its time or breath on a slot that has zero desire to see it as anything but scum... or frankly treat it as an equal? Like, from minute one you've had a problem with it, and it doesn't know what that problem is but it would really like it if you'd take the chip you carry on your shoulder and put it away.

This is its literal last plea to you, it's not going to re-engage again if you're not going to at least meet it half way.

From my point of view you are the slot that is being aggressive and demeaning towards other players and it makes me not want to attempt to engage with you.

[Dunnstral]

Oblivion, can you explain why you were so focused on me when you were catching up with the game?

My understanding is that you were near the start of the game in your catchup and I hadn't posted much yet at that time.

[Dunnstral]

If I squint I can see Firebagel as mafia.

Their push on Dannflor feels half-hearted in explanation and in spirit of bothering to push it, and they are sort of on the sidelines of this game without getting too involved. They only have a few townreads.

They said I was tryharding early into the game too but seem to have dropped that without pursuing it further, they only have a few townreads (morph and oblivion?)

[Dunnstral]

Caught up.

VOTE: firebagel

I personally don't want to kill in my hood today, but d2 on should probably within until we get the scum. If we kill now we don't get the night result.

It's also dangerous if scum kill the recipients of our inventions

Why are you voting firebagel

I will happily vote anyone I'm not tring at this point

OK but why firebagel specifically?

[Dunnstral]

Bingle can you tell me who in our hood is scum?

Is cabd in our hood, because I am legit scumreading him. And to a lesser extent ffery.

I do not find this post to be believable

[Dunnstral]

Bingle can you tell me who in our hood is scum?

Is cabd in our hood, because I am legit scumreading him. And to a lesser extent ffery.

I do not find this post to be believable

what do you think about the bingle 3p theory?

I do not think there is anything to support that Bingle is a third party

[Dunnstral]

Bingle how much of the game have you read?

The part I found unbelievable is that you don't know who is in the neighborhood

[Dunnstral]

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

VOTE: Firebagel

[Dunnstral]

I was scum reading action dan at the time (this read has mellowed with time), and it still did not resonate with me.

Luke, can you talk about your current reads?

This prompted me to do start doing isos, but I am not getting through them today. So far I got Actiondan -> Gypyx -> Gypyx -> Spiff, but that is probably all Im getting to tonight.

Spoiler: Actiondan

Reading actiondan's iso actually left me leaning town, which is not exactly what I expected going in.

I think that his suspicion on Marci actually makes a little more sense now, knowing what we know about the hood, and because I saw that he did answer my question and has never played with her. I also feel like this

This kind of player is anathema to me. She projects an aura of incompetentance when I dont think she really is and injects her posts with being LOUD

recontexualizes this abit more

At first glance this worry from Maristar looks planned and manufactured. And with the goodfellas award I am discarding this as an oversensitive townie

And with that recontextualization. I buy it more, and its a nice consistency point.

I also think that his insistence that a miller absolutely does not make any sense in the setup is the thing that really said town to me. It rings as a True Thought to me.

Spoiler: gypyx

Gypyx - Looking back, seeing them mess up the hood-scum reward in 344 feels like a townslip.

I don't see how scum legitimately see a statement that scum get a reward for being in the hood, and mixes that up with town getting a reward for killing scum in the hood.

I did not actually have a lot of other alignment thoughts about them across their whole iso, but I really liked that thought.

Spoiler: firebagel

Firebagel - Looking back, I actually hate 106.

283feels like the kind of easy thing scum look for to poke at, and does not even come with a alignment comment on Spiff. Just poking at word choice.

Something about 349 feels fake to me.

I also feel like her interactions with the dethy reveal 993, 1016, 1036 felt like posts of an outside observer, rather then someone whose wincon necessitates needing in figuring things out.

(On the townie side, I did like their town read on Oblivion in 282).

Spoiler: Spiff

Spiff - I like his page 6sunflower case. I also found it townie that he quoted it to bring it to page top. Like a lot.

I also kinda liked the instead hood claim after Marci's hood claim.

There is something about 898 that I find townie.

I also like that when Spiff looked back at his high posting, there is both a backtrack on his claim against me and a double down on his take about actiondan. Like he established he was not posting at 100%, and was looking back, but chose to double down on the one that was actually making people suspect him. It further helps that when I was looking back at actiondan's iso,I thought the same thing.

And I liked his willingness to instant read drop on klick with 1404.

So that is a town lean for Actiondan, Gypyx, and Spiff -- and a scum read for firebagel.

VOTE: firebagel

I started to list out my full town reads, and realized I might have too many. >.<

Before starting these isos, I was at:

Marci, Crab
morph, oblivion
CSF, Pooky, Ydra,

All as town of varying strengths, so adding Actiondan, Gypyx, and Spiff feels like too many. But that is not a problem that I will be able to address tonight.

My pre-iso concerns were

actiondan

, klick, sunflower, but very little confidence in any of them. I do feel like I need to look back at Klick and Sunflower's exchange from earlier, it struck me as an exchange I should be able to discern alignment from, but did not give up its secrets on the first pass.

What about me?

[Dunnstral]

I thought Bingle was joking.

[Dunnstral]

viewtopic.php?t=80680

Relevant mod meta.

What is this?

[Dunnstral]

Why do you think Firebringer is mafia?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, where are your reads overall atm?

Town:

marcistar
Oblivion
morph the cat
Hermit Crab


Lean town:

PookyTheMagicalBear
Firebringer
Save The Dragons
ActionDan
Shello and Goodbye
Cat Scratch Fever


Lean mafia:

Lukewarm
Brian Skies
Gypyx
Dannflor
PenguinPower
Bingle
SirCakez


Mafia?:

Firebagel
Spiffeh
Klick
Sunflower



Something like this. ask me for reasoning. I know you will ask about Lukewarm so I will say I have a different bar of what I think they are capable of as mafia, and aside from their interaction with you I don't like their posting very much. Actually Klick said something similar so maybe they are more pure than I am giving them credit for.

[Dunnstral]

also i just have this nagging feeling that one of the people pushing action dan for the timeline inconsistency of the cop/miller thing is scum so why not firebringer

Wasn't that only me and Firebringer? And I admitted that it wasn't a smoking gun.

[Dunnstral]

i think it doesn't take much of a leap to figure out that hermit crab is cabal even if you haven't read

:blossom:

I can pretty much never tell who is a secret hydra until it is spelled out for me. I still don't know who Firebagel is, for instance. Except for Maria, she has a distinctive posting style that I can catch on to (though even that takes me a while)

[Dunnstral]

Also if Cakez is scum Dunn is also cleared because he could clearly tell for a while too

I couldn't, actually.

I am reading your hydra at face value without knowing the members

[Dunnstral]

I saw the blue hair thing but didn't remember who it was who had blue hair

[Dunnstral]

You are leaning mafia on 11 people? lol

I tried making a list without a null category. Some of the reads are pretty light. It wasn't intentionally but it is pretty much split in half of who is townier and who is scummier.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think everyone there is mafia, that is just where I would look, and the top half is where I would not look, except for a few names.

I don't think Klick and Sunflower are both mafia, also.

[Dunnstral]

I find the arguments against SirCakez persuasive. The time gap between posts and also how they entered the thread looking like they were ready to solve but then vanished around the time they would have slipped. Also the idea that they would be spending time looking for how they knew that info.

[Dunnstral]

inevitable 1v1.

Note that they JUST saw this exact scenario as scum in Midscummer's, from Dunn/Gif scum hydra against Alisae/Maria town hydra.

What do you mean?

[Dunnstral]

I think your wagon is misguided.

What do you think of your wagon (however it's currently configured, since it has changed).

Yeah, misguided is about how I've felt about it too. Luke is probably town. Dragons is kinda hmmmm at this point which is odd, but maybe the specifics of the game are affecting how he's playing. Can't remember if Pooky ever actually voted me or just thought about it but he's probably town. Dunnstral... well, in a vacuum I'd probably be voting there but people like you are townreading him and I'm inclined to listen to that.

You would be voting for me why?

[Dunnstral]

hey dunny boi how is it going

Doing good

[Dunnstral]

1) the two situations are not alike at all. that was a mechanical counterclaim. this is there's probably a scum in this group of 5 and two people in it suspect each other

2) it implies that i wouldn't know what a 1v1 looks like if i hadn't just seen one which is vaguely insulting lol

:blossom:

They're extremely alike, in that the scum player in a deAAAthy is already planning for a 1v1 if/when the sorting eventually occurs or the deathy is narrowed down, and is unable to endgame. In the dream game, your team had to prepare for a 1v1 lest too many people be confirmed town, and so chose to take the initiative. It's plenty alike.

2: Your face wouldn't know a 1v1. No, but seriously, that's not my implication, moreso as "You just got to see needing to prep for a 1v1, so you're more likely to have that recent memory wierghin on you when seeing the deAAAthy as scum".

OK I can see how they are alike. Are you saying Sunflower is the one who took the initiative in this game?

[Dunnstral]

tbh if i were scum i wouldn't be worried about winning a 1v1 with anyone in my hood

:blossom:

Why not?

Yeah, misguided is about how I've felt about it too. Luke is probably town. Dragons is kinda hmmmm at this point which is odd, but maybe the specifics of the game are affecting how he's playing. Can't remember if Pooky ever actually voted me or just thought about it but he's probably town. Dunnstral... well, in a vacuum I'd probably be voting there but people like you are townreading him and I'm inclined to listen to that.

You would be voting for me why?

I don't like the aggressive, wrongheaded positional feeling I'm getting from you, like you want to stir up trouble. It's not at all what I've seen from you as town.

I'm not sure what you are referring to.

[Dunnstral]

town: [oblivion, hermit crab]

town for now, maybe revisit later: [pooky, shello, dunnstral]

townlean: [marci, std]

light townlean, will continually revisit: [dannflor, luke]

low content but gut leans a little towny: [firebagel, gypyx...?]

the rest also sort of fit into tiers for me but im not feeling particularly great about any scumreads so i will leave this as a town half readlist

5 different tiers for town

[Dunnstral]

i like having lots of tiers in my readlists is there a problem with that

:blossom:

Yes it personally bothers me

@dunnstral do u believe in the power of my dreams?

I believe that dreams can come from your subconscious mind, but are not supernatural in nature.

So maybe you have a reason to think ActionDan is mafia.

[Dunnstral]

Did you have any thoughts about his vote on me? I don't feel heavily sussed or sussed at all this game, so leaving a vote on me with an insipid explanation seems unlikely to go anywhere

I don't mind his vote on you

I think people are probably clearing you too easily due to having an idea that you are a polarized player

I think scum are more likely to buy into that narrative and not push perceived polarized players who are widely agreed to be town

Is CSF really widely agreed to be town though?

[Dunnstral]

1

Lack of methodological approach.

This is again what drew my attention to you super early in the game, where you appeared to miss the context of pooky's readlist.

It resurfaced with your Sunflower vote in 2099, where:

(1) you used sunflower's comment on hoods being swapped around against him, despite several other people having voiced the same theory, and him not being the the first one to say it. Even in the post you quoted, fire said that he "still" thinks that hood swapping makes sense, indicating that there was a prior discussion about the topic, but you did not follow up on that.

(2) you missed an entire page of people stating that Bingle's claim looked like a joke, and you simply took it at face value. Like, in order for you to make the claim in 2099, it would necessitate you having missed every single one of these posts?

Spoiler:

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

VOTE: Marcistar

U just said u can't vote!

U just said u can't vote!

No I didn’t.

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote

That doesn’t say I can’t vote.

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

Wait, hold on, this is actually a thing?

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

Bingle, you're the main character

I thought Bingle was joking.

Warm pup might also be scum, btw.

VOTE MEEEEEEEE

I lose my ability to rearrange hoods if I vote, which will make my wincon of making the alignments of living players in the hoods match really hard to achieve.

Wait how do you know there are hoods plural?

p-edit: oh, maybe

i thought bingle was very definitely joking

:blossom:

I think bingle has never told a joke in mafia game ever.

p-edit: oh, maybe

I was not sure what to think about the claim, but yeah him voting 2 posts later made me assume that the claim was a joke.

]

2

Your interaction with me over my reads

I don't agree on a couple of your reads, which should be obvious. Those are the ones I'm mulling. Do you need me to prioritize getting back to you on it? I was going to wait until we have a chance to sync on new data first.

You feeling like you need to talk to cabd, before you could talk to me about my reads seems very out of character for how I think of town!ffery.

Like, our game experience, once you decided that I was town, we have literally started our own in thread neighborhood to work through our thoughts, and that came across as you being hesitant to just chat with me on my throughts despite having me as one of your strongest town reads.

And once you did respond to them with 2084, is felt like there was a lack of bite? Like, it did not feel like you were actually trying to challenge me on the things that you did not agree with me on, to work through the differences. You just kinda *pointed* at places where we differed.

3

Our conversation about time stamps

I feel like my posts about your history of timestamps resulted in you posting on the back foot. Like you did not know where it was going, and that worried you.

It actually gave me the opposite vibes of our interaction where I original town read you, because it felt almost like you were worried that it was leading to a read shift from me. It seemed like you wanted to enagage with me to keep a tabs on it, but didn't know the right steps to take because it was an unexpected conversation. And you basically came out and said that it was distracting to you

I find the arguments against SirCakez persuasive. The time gap between posts and also how they entered the thread looking like they were ready to solve but then vanished around the time they would have slipped. Also the idea that they would be spending time looking for how they knew that info.

inorite?

Luke do you think there's something to this?

To the cakez stuff? Or to Dunn repeating it back?

Because I am currently voting Cakez

I didn't internalize this because of wondering about your focus on

my

occasional timing focus.

4

Minor ping

inevitable 1v1.

Note that they JUST saw this exact scenario as scum in Midscummer's, from Dunn/Gif scum hydra against Alisae/Maria town hydra.

This post felt off.

It did not feel like it was engaging in a way to substantiate a new point, but just to egg on my thoughts. Strengthen my read. But still let the point be originating from me.

5

Cabd's recent interjections

Spoiler: relevant cabd posts

Null is always where scum puts morph when we are approaching UTR status.

Calling us scum puts a bunch of heat on from the rest of the folks town reading us and makes them effort a case.

Calling us town means admitting that we have legitimate concerns and having to more directly address and tango.

But calling our well over there hundred posts "null" means having to do neither of those things until forced from a different impetus and allows status quo riding along.

Sunflower won't case me but if they are town and genuinely scum reading me they think it's perfectly fine to let scum me have thread control for two whole game days. Lol nope.

(a townie actually scum reading me is shouting that shit from the rooftops and urging the thread to stop following me blindly damn the personal consequences.)

I mean if you're town and I'm scum it's called playing to your win condition.

You're once again more worried about the consequences and fallout of pushing me than you are actually wanting to protect the town from a scary deepwolf.

And I don't think you're a coward as town. So I'm left with the alternative. That you ARE playing to win con it's just not the one I have.

I know that cabd knows that you should not step in the way of a line of questioning, but he did it anyways. And the way that he did it does feel kinda bad faith as dann said. Or as I said

this would look a lot like you were trying to get ahead of anything sunflower might have to say, both to demoralize him and to discredit anything he did decide to put out.

That series of posts does set cabd up to either:

If Fireisredsir does not make a case, say "see, I told you he wouldn't do it," or
If fireisredsir does make a case say "He had to put it out there because of my posts saying that its a scum claim not to"

Wow. This post is well thought out, organized and put together well, and makes a salient point that I wouldn't have otherwise caught on to. It's too bad it's a scum post.

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

That was a joke (the second part), I think this level of effort makes Luke look like town

[Dunnstral]

ig I kind of think Dann's defense of Sunflower is scummy if Sunflower is mafia is because when I asked him for the receipts here;

it also has to do with me having played with fire a lot and feeling like I have a decent handle on what he's self conscious about as scum

you're going to have to spell out the exact read if that's the line you're taking

he just didnt answer me

tho I guess it could be that he went to bed or whatever ~.~

I think mafia are more likely to defend a town player rather than their own buddy. So if Dannflor were mafia here I'd think Sunflower is more likely to be town rather than mafia based off of associations. The reason for this is that I feel mafia are generally wary about forming associations with their own team which openly defending would be.

[Dunnstral]

yall :dead: :dead: ngl i wanna vote dunn

Can you talk more about this?

i dont remember what page it was on actually

but he made a readslist that just looks like hes scumreading alot of the lesser actives/"low hanging fruits" and townreading the people who have an actual impact on the game. it looks easy as fuck and scummy.

I disagree with this notion

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

Dunn, where are your reads overall atm?

Town:

marcistar
Oblivion
morph the cat
Hermit Crab


Lean town:

PookyTheMagicalBear
Firebringer
Save The Dragons
ActionDan
Shello and Goodbye
Cat Scratch Fever


Lean mafia:

Lukewarm
Brian Skies
Gypyx
Dannflor
PenguinPower
Bingle
SirCakez


Mafia?:

Firebagel
Spiffeh
Klick
Sunflower



Something like this. ask me for reasoning. I know you will ask about Lukewarm so I will say I have a different bar of what I think they are capable of as mafia, and aside from their interaction with you I don't like their posting very much. Actually Klick said something similar so maybe they are more pure than I am giving them credit for.

With this being the list, I assume?

Several players in the town leans have sparse posts, and several in the scum leans have posted quite a bit

Though I also said I wasn't doing a null tier so some players got shifted to lean mafia due to my other reads.

[Dunnstral]

firebagel whos scum

Probably like somewhere in here:

Firebringer
Brian Skies
Gypyx
Spiffeh
Hermit Crab (anonymous hydra)
Save The Dragons
Shello and Goodbye (Ydrasse & skitter30)
experience ActionDan
Sunflower (JupiterXV & fireisredsir)
SirCakez
Klick
Bingle
PenguinPower
Dannflor

I thought you scumread me? Surprised I'm one of 7 people you are not pointing a finger at here.

[Dunnstral]

He has the biggest wagon.

This is lame

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Brian Skies

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

Dunn, where are your reads overall atm?

Town:

marcistar
Oblivion
morph the cat
Hermit Crab


Lean town:

PookyTheMagicalBear
Firebringer
Save The Dragons
ActionDan
Shello and Goodbye
Cat Scratch Fever


Lean mafia:

Lukewarm
Brian Skies
Gypyx
Dannflor
PenguinPower
Bingle
SirCakez


Mafia?:

Firebagel
Spiffeh
Klick
Sunflower



Something like this. ask me for reasoning. I know you will ask about Lukewarm so I will say I have a different bar of what I think they are capable of as mafia, and aside from their interaction with you I don't like their posting very much. Actually Klick said something similar so maybe they are more pure than I am giving them credit for.

With this being the list, I assume?

Several players in the town leans have sparse posts, and several in the scum leans have posted quite a bit

Though I also said I wasn't doing a null tier so some players got shifted to lean mafia due to my other reads.

Ahh maybe..

Idk it just felt like an easy readslist imo

Well It wasn't I put thought into my reads I just didn't explain anything and instead left it open to questions

[Dunnstral]

Is it weird to anyone else we haven’t had competing wagons this game?

We haven't gotten over the hurdle of voting outside of the dethy hood yet, I think. But even then there were a lot of missing votes at the time

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler: Vote Counts

VC 1.2

Sunflower 3 (Spiffeh, Dunstral, Dannflor)
ActionDan 2 (Lukewarm, Pooky)
Firebagel 2 (Hermit, Penguin)
Pooky 1 (Firebagel)
marcistar 2 (ActionDan, Sunflower)
Oblivion 1 (CSF)
Spiffeh 1 (Gypyx)
Lukewarm 1 (Klick)
STD 1 (morph)
morph 1 (STD)

Not voting (Brian Skies, Firebringer, Oblivion, Shello, SirCakez, Bingle, marcistar)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to banish.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-09 04:07:00)

VC 1.3

Klick 4 (morph, Hermit, Pooky, Dunnstral)
Sunflower 3 (Spiffeh, Dannflor, Klick)
ActionDan 2 (Lukewarm, Firebringer)
Firebagel 1 (Penguin)
Pooky 1 (Firebagel)
marcistar 1 (ActionDan)
Oblivion 1 (CSF)
Spiffeh 1 (Gypyx)
Lukewarm 1 (Klick)
morph 1 (STD)

Not voting (Brian Skies, Oblivion, Shello, SirCakez, Bingle, marcistar, Sunflower)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to banish.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-09 04:07:00)

VC 1.4

Klick 6 (morph, Hermit, Pooky, Dunnstral, Penguin, Dannflor)
Brian Skies 2 (Spiffeh, CSF)
ActionDan 2 (Lukewarm, Firebringer)
Pooky 1 (Firebagel)
Sunflower 1 (Klick)
marcistar 1 (ActionDan)
Spiffeh 1 (Gypyx)
morph 1 (STD)

Not voting (Brian Skies, Oblivion, Shello, SirCakez, Bingle, marcistar, Sunflower)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to yeet.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-09 04:07:00)

I believe these 3 vote counts are during the time we were thinking we should be voting inside of the dethy hood

SirCakez and Bingle had not posted yet. Sunflower was calling Klick mafia but not voting. marcistar was calling actiondan mafia but not voting. Oblivion was generally doing their own thing and didn't seem concerned with the hood. Brian Skies talked about the hood for a bit but never voted. Shello was giving opionons as well and seemed more involved but didn't place a vote. And then there are several players voting outside of the hoods still.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: cakez

Why?

[Dunnstral]

i want to join cakez because wagons

but i also want gypyx and she's just so close to being a competing wagon

hold the line penguin...hold the line.

[Dunnstral]

Dunn's level of engagement and scumhunting this game has felt beyond what I've seen him pull off as scum in the past.

u wot m8

ok that sounded kind of dumb but the point is he feels like town!Dunn fairly transparently to me

Eh. Maybe I’m biased but I’ve felt like his contributions have p much all been bad faith and I don’t think Dunn is particularly more likely to tryhard as town than scum. Like… look at every interaction he has with me, for example.

What is bad faith?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn's level of engagement and scumhunting this game has felt beyond what I've seen him pull off as scum in the past.

u wot m8

ok that sounded kind of dumb but the point is he feels like town!Dunn fairly transparently to me

Eh. Maybe I’m biased but I’ve felt like his contributions have p much all been bad faith and I don’t think Dunn is particularly more likely to tryhard as town than scum. Like… look at every interaction he has with me, for example.

Does them being bad faith make him scum? I feel like Dunn does this as either alignment

I am not sure what you are talking about. I don't argue in bad faith as town.

[Dunnstral]

HOW THE FUCK DID YOU RESPOND RIGHT AFTER ME I THOUGHT THREAD WAS DEAD

Coincidence

[Dunnstral]

[Dunnstral]

dunnstral what do u think of all the switches off of cakez after cakez posted?

I don 't know

[Dunnstral]

I only remember Shello unvoting

[Dunnstral]

I think that in general having somebody post and then other players unvoting that player is not a cause for concern. It is pretty typical to think that the player who you are paying attention to right now is the townie

Just speaking in general

[Dunnstral]

I never said the firebringer wagon didn't have legitimate reasons behind it. I just said he instigated it, which he did. Unless you're saying he didn't?

I don't think they did

[Dunnstral]

i am so scared someone said theres like 10 votes on brian and it seems like he isnt puting up much of a fight?? is that not a townie thing too?? i think scum usually puts up a hella fight

This is wifom

Though I don't know what Brian Skies typically does

[Dunnstral]

He has the biggest wagon.

The reason I included the first quote was because it seemed like the reasons people were scumreading Cakez at the time you made that post didn't impress you.

Do you scumread him? if so, why?

No, I don't scumread him.

Brian, do you have thoughts about the composition/timing/whatever of your wagon?

Spiffeh has been scumreading me all game. And others have indicated low reads on me so the wagon doesn't really come as a surprise, especially considering this is the third game in a row I've been run up on Day 1.

brian wagon: [spiffeh, morph, marci, lukewarm, dunnstral, sunflower, pooky, cakez, penguin, csf]

I'd say the first six on my wagon are probably town.

Pooky is a bit of an enigma here, and I think he could be potential scum on the wagon.

Cakez I'd probably expect to vote me regardless of his alignment. I do think scum-Cakez sees me as a counterwagon and thinks I'm an easy vote.

Penguin is a bit up in the air for me. Could go either way.

I still think CSF is town.

I definitely do not think my wagon is an all-town wagon.

Does your read on SirCakez change here?

[Dunnstral]

I am curious what Dunn thinks about cakez's Dunn read.

I never think activity reads on me are accurate, but people still try to use them. For Sircakez I have to wonder if he is simply following majority opinion; I'm not sure what they meant when they said I argue in bad faith as town as a reason to not scumread me.

[Dunnstral]

this might sound weird but i actually kinda find it scummy that he's scumreading brian

if he had said - i'm scumreading X the most but voting brian for survival
i think i would have had an easier time with it because it would have felt more truthful

but how the brian vote in 2902 is presented kinda makes it feel he thinks that's the best vote right now which is ... very coincidental

not sure how well i explained it

This is a good point

[Dunnstral]

I think Cakez is town and marci is scum who doesn’t want his wagon to melt

I don't agree with this read on Marci

[Dunnstral]

spiffeh/marci/brian i think are my bottom 3 right now

yes marci i know you’re voting brian right now but if brian is actually scum in this gamestate he’s being heavily bussed

Why would they be heavily bussed?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn's level of engagement and scumhunting this game has felt beyond what I've seen him pull off as scum in the past.

u wot m8

ok that sounded kind of dumb but the point is he feels like town!Dunn fairly transparently to me

Eh. Maybe I’m biased but I’ve felt like his contributions have p much all been bad faith and I don’t think Dunn is particularly more likely to tryhard as town than scum. Like… look at every interaction he has with me, for example.

Does them being bad faith make him scum? I feel like Dunn does this as either alignment

Lukewarm this is the post I am talking about

I am not sure what SirCakez means here, how do I push bad faith as either alignment and where this game am I bad faith?

[Dunnstral]

I dislike Shello's argument about his Brian Skies vote and it feels a little cherry-picked to have a reason to scum read him. I don't know how well I can articulate or substantiate this but I get the vibe that Shello entered their Cakez opinion with the intention of scum reading him in general.

You're not allowed to post something that makes me scumread you and then preempt my poke at skitter like this in a way that makes me townread you. Bad mouse wizard.

Maybe I should reconsider my Spiffeh scumread. I do think they are making good arguments. Maybe I should be considering Firebringer too. This is due to me thinking there is mafia in our neighborhood which is also not confirmed I guess. Though I'm also not sure on SirCakez.

[Dunnstral]

where this game am I bad faith?

Your whole preoccupation with my ngaf about what seems to be a vanilla hood and trying to make a big deal of it seems like busy work designed to make me look scummy, not a genuine belief that I'm supposed to care about who is in a neighborhood I haven't even tried reading for content more as town.

Yes, there is an OP with the neighborlist. No, there is nothing AI about not giving a shit about who the 6 people in that list are. Mechanically, I'm like 98% sure that neighborhood comp is nonrandom and I still don't give a shit about the neighborlist because until I have a good grasp of the game design and a good grasp of the game state that knowledge is worthless at best and likely to cause bias in my reading at worst.

This wasn't exactly my argument.

You posted that you popped into the neighborhood and saw hermit crab and firebringer talking. I pointed out that I was at the top of that page so it seemed a bit fake for you to go there and scroll to the bottom.

[Dunnstral]

I think morph is getting 3 cuz i said if we want mechanics we need to wait until 2 shots can go off so we can get accurate info. But then said it isnt realistic.

This sounds like a bad idea to me. I've never seen an invention-receiver able to use more than one invention in a night phase.

At least check with ceph on that.

As a reminder there is a time incentive to solving the hood

[Dunnstral]

I think morph is getting 3 cuz i said if we want mechanics we need to wait until 2 shots can go off so we can get accurate info. But then said it isnt realistic.

WRT dethy hood:

Claim the N1 invent and result on the first available day. Claim the N2 invent and result on the second available day. Claim the N3 invent and result on the third available day -> first time when usage of that information should be powerful. As such, dethy hood probably goes untested for a few days and we should focus on solving outside it for now.

I have a pet theory that it's 2 in our hood 2 in no hood 1 in dethy scum wise, but that theory is ungrounded and thus not worth acting on. It does mean that I'm not really interested in delineating between in our hood or not in our hood for limming, because legitimately 0-4 is the reasonable numbers I could see being scum in our hood and that's like... completely useless. I'll probably want to reevaluate that post massclaim. I feel better about a cakez lim post pooky case. Massclaim probably on D3 when scum have committed to killing in the dethy hood or not.

For this post too. Something bad happens if mafia are still in the hood by an unspecified time. I think if we get to day 4 we likely trip that. Though if we don't care about that and want to try to be more accurate by waiting for longer that is a choice that can be made. Not a bad one either, potentially.

[Dunnstral]

sunflower

HC
klick
std
pp

klick

morph
experience
dann
dunn
luke

dragons

FB
pooky
me
shello

actiondan experience

marci
oblivion
spiff
gypyx

marci

sunflower
cakez
bagel
csf

Invent target pools. I think I got everyone and didn't double up.

Pooky is ascetic.

[Dunnstral]

I am curious what Dunn thinks about cakez's Dunn read.

I never think activity reads on me are accurate, but people still try to use them. For Sircakez I have to wonder if he is simply following majority opinion; I'm not sure what they meant when they said I argue in bad faith as town as a reason to not scumread me.

I don't really have conviction behind that meta argument tbh. My point in that post to Bingle was that nothing in your debates with him look like scum!Dunn moves to me.

I think the way you worded it was different than this and didn't seem accurate

[Dunnstral]

I am curious what Dunn thinks about cakez's Dunn read.

I never think activity reads on me are accurate, but people still try to use them. For Sircakez I have to wonder if he is simply following majority opinion; I'm not sure what they meant when they said I argue in bad faith as town as a reason to not scumread me.

I don't really have conviction behind that meta argument tbh. My point in that post to Bingle was that nothing in your debates with him look like scum!Dunn moves to me.

Actually this doesn't even make sense after looking back at those posts. I don't really understand what Bingle was calling bad faith in the first place and it wasn't really a debate. I'm probably just going to reset on these reads.

OK so I am confused. Why are you saying things and not understanding what you are arguing?

[Dunnstral]

unless you're talking about us being the sanity check target, not a target to receive inventions. Using us as a sanity check is a good choice, probably.

You... you are? What if you get shot?

...wait, how the heck

do

we coordinate this? Everyone investigating the same target gives the best info right? But then that means mafia can just shoot the target and all that goes out the window. There hopefully would be a protective around, but then there's also decent chance of mafia having use of Unstoppable to counter that... :?

How does the target of investigation dying mess things up?

Also CSF would be best if everyone investigates the same player. They are either miller or lying, so should always come back guilty.

[Dunnstral]

I'm still catching up but it's occurred to me that a paranoid cop always gets guilty results, so CSF is a bad choice for an investigative

[Dunnstral]

I dislike Shello's argument about his Brian Skies vote and it feels a little cherry-picked to have a reason to scum read him. I don't know how well I can articulate or substantiate this but I get the vibe that Shello entered their Cakez opinion with the intention of scum reading him in general.

You're not allowed to post something that makes me scumread you and then preempt my poke at skitter like this in a way that makes me townread you. Bad mouse wizard.

Maybe I should reconsider my Spiffeh scumread. I do think they are making good arguments. Maybe I should be considering Firebringer too. This is due to me thinking there is mafia in our neighborhood which is also not confirmed I guess. Though I'm also not sure on SirCakez.

What's your read on Bingle?

They are a hard read, I'm not sure.

[Dunnstral]

I'm still catching up but it's occurred to me that a paranoid cop always gets guilty results, so CSF is a bad choice for an investigative

It should evenly split the cops right?

If they get inno, then they are naive or insane.

If they get guilty they are sane or paranoid.

Which then helps us use their results later, right?

I mean, its possible that there is a better option, but I am not following why this makes CSF a bad option.

There is no way to tell the paranoid cop apart from the sane cop

[Dunnstral]

night market?

the other hood

:blossom:

Did we ever claim the hood name publicly?

It's possible we totally did

[Dunnstral]

Several of us became more inclined towards Shello being mafia over night in our neighborhood. Including me; I thought they looked bad after the flip

[Dunnstral]

We also discussed that mafia Bookie is likely targeting in the dethy briefly but I don't think my hood mates cared all too much (which I suspected was like wifom maybe due to possible mafia in the hood, but I see we are entering pushing Sunflower regardless)

Meanwhile Shello is unlikely to have been targetted. But they are also not in the dethy and bad things happen if the mafia there is alive too long.

Shello, where did you soft vig?

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

i have absolutely no issue with being vigged as long as whoever shoots me shoots morph next night

if someone repeats four times in the first day of a game for any vig to shoot me, I'm going to ask that if it's done that they pay with their lives on the next night.

that is not me asking to get shot or killed. I have not at any point asked to die or whatever.

i mean the point i cared more about was the first part where you okayed being shot which is something, if not in this exact context, ive done as wolf more than once and i feel you would do too. you can be town being upset too but from experience i just feel like you get more upset/angry/etc like this as a wolf sorry

i mean the point i cared more about was the first part where you okayed being shot which is something, if not in this exact context, ive done as wolf more than once and i feel you would do too. you can be town being upset too but from experience i just feel like you get more upset/angry/etc like this as a wolf sorry

my point is I have never asked to be killed in this game so it is strange to me that is what you are getting from what I posted.

I simply said IF a vig actually listens to Cabd's constant harping that they should do me a favor and get hit on the next night

i disagree with that frankly but i dont wanna go blow for blow on this if youre like this rn, we can talk some other time if you want to

[Dunnstral]

we're conditional and no we don't know what the condition is it's just something that can be enabled later down the line apparently

- ydra

This part feels unbelievable to me

[Dunnstral]

Though claiming vigilante if Morph has something like a gunsmith guilty on you is a positive

[Dunnstral]

Claiming conditional vigilante is really convenient when mafia have a bookie actually

[Dunnstral]

Yeah i think we should absolutely keep scrutiny on cakez, or maybe Bingle? my ego tells me bingle was somewhat threatened

will wait before voting to let everyone pop in

Can you go into more detail on why you think this

[Dunnstral]

We did not act last night, kinda figured oddsmaker would be better to be used late game

It didn't cross your mind to use this ability on Sunflower?

[Dunnstral]

VC 1.1

ActionDan 4 (marcistar, STD, Dannflor, Lukewarm)
Firebagel 3 (Dunnstral, Pooky, Hermit)
Pooky 2 (Sunflower, Firebagel)
marcistar 1 (ActionDan)
Oblivion 1 (CSF)
Spiffeh 1 (Gypyx)
Lukewarm 1 (Klick)
STD 1 (morph)
Sunflower 1 (Spiffeh)

Not voting (Brian Skies, Firebringer, Oblivion, Penguin, Shello, SirCakez, Bingle)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to banish.

Deadline: Will update when I have more time

Town - pooky, dann
Lean town - luke, dunn, hermit
Nulltown -

actiondan/experience

, oblivion, brian skies, gypyx, csf
Null -

std

,

klick

Nullscum - morph, spiffeh, firebagel,

marci

,

sunflower

, penguin
Lean scum - fire, bingle, cakez
Scum

[Dunnstral]

We did not act last night, kinda figured oddsmaker would be better to be used late game

It didn't cross your mind to use this ability on Sunflower?

why would we want to use it explicitly on sunflower

- ydra

We did not act last night, kinda figured oddsmaker would be better to be used late game

It didn't cross your mind to use this ability on Sunflower?

No, it doesn't seem obvious to me either that they'd be limmed or that the bookie would target them

Was there not talk of us eliminating in the dethy today in the main thread?

[Dunnstral]

You say game this large but if we limit it to the dethy it is 5 players.

[Dunnstral]

You’re saying scum is in the universal town reads but didn’t have the ability to derail the wagon? How does that make sense

I read utr as under the radar

[Dunnstral]

:sunny: jupiter here. it's RVS for me right now. get blasted VOTE: Dunnstral

What

[Dunnstral]

Didn't you post already before this?

[Dunnstral]

jupiter here. it's RVS for me right now. get blasted VOTE: Dunnstral

What

i missed day 1 so i wanted to lay down a vote lol UNVOTE:

Were you not around at all on day 1?

[Dunnstral]

jupiter here. it's RVS for me right now. get blasted VOTE: Dunnstral

What

i missed day 1 so i wanted to lay down a vote lol UNVOTE:

Were you not around at all on day 1?

You signed a few posts on day 1

[Dunnstral]

Talk to me more about how this morph read developed?

Fuck im in the car rn i should be home soon maybe

Don't Mafiascum and drive Marci

[Dunnstral]

The key being both wagons. You would need to believe SirCakez is mafia as well, or else Firebringer should be pushing them if they want to save Brian

[Dunnstral]

It would be appreciated if you could get a bit more granular with the details

[Dunnstral]

if you mean a read on morph, i will later if i feel like it's important. rn there's mech stuff so it's kinda whatever

No I meant I wanted more details on what was happening in the hood. Your explanation was super vague

[Dunnstral]

which things in particular do you feel are important or relevant

The scumreads on Morph.

[Dunnstral]

And how that developed

[Dunnstral]

Hi guys! I'm new but this game looked like fun so I thought I'd give it a shot. My experience mostly is playing Discord mafia and ToS, but I wanted to give a forum game a try. I got a summary from the neighborhood chat last night, but if there's anything you want me to read just tell me where to look in the logs.

I saw we got an evil out Day 1, does anyone know how many evils are likely to be left?

In a game of this size, there are likely 4 remaining evils. But that is not confirmed.

[Dunnstral]

What. What did I do marci?

[Dunnstral]

So if wolfbae genuinely needing answers or do they understand what is going on?