Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[Mr. Flay]

I was a major offender on the "Themed Newbies", so I suppose I should chime in here. I always avoided the "confirmable unique townie" problem, but I ran games based on The 300, High School, WWII, Romans, Dylan Thomas, Doctor Doom, Eddie Izzard, Rock-n-Roll, Sheep & Wolves, and Lovers. So oops.

That being said

, I never

once

had a player come to me confused on what their role did, except on things like Doctor-self-protecting and sanity that any game could fall ill of. So I have a hard time crediting the "OMG won't someone please think of the newbies!" argument; I always included the "real" name of the role, and made sure people understood it was just flavor to make the game seem interesting. I side with MeMe-once-upon-a-time in this, that "flavor" is different from complexity. And given the popularity of "Are You a Werewolf?", I'd strongly argue that Werewolf/Werewolf-Mafia games are normal too, barring other mutation factors.

BUT, I try to follow the rules once I knew for sure that flavor was not kosher in The Road to Rome. And if

Sus. in Sicily

is a problem, then our problem is MUCH bigger than we thought, because I specifically ran that by the New York List Mod before I started it, to make sure it was in fact Normal. I made that game in about 6 hours; I can crank out flavor and/or game setups all day long if needed.

Myself? I still don't see that "Theme" games and "Mafia Mutations" should necessarily be in the same forum. Many Mafia Mutations are Theme Games, but not all Theme Games are Mafia Mutations, etc... maybe we need another forum. I do agree that enforcing the current "Normal" definition should be painless and straightforward. Games that are in the wrong Queue should be moved, and delayed if need be to make the Queue wait fair/penalize repeat offenders. With all of the above said, I don't understand why people would find the current rule so hard to follow.

If we did split them, I think Theme Games (those based on a particular source material) should have slightly less stringent modding requirements than Mafia Mutations. But I'm not sure how to define the difference so that people get in the right Queue...

[Mr. Flay]

I'm sorry, but if only

certain

long-existing Roles are allowed in Normal games, then we

need

an explicit list that's been voted on/come from On High. Susp. in Sicily had a Gunsmith, which I assumed was a variant Cop (and again, was approved by the List Mod). The Role's dead now, of course, so I'm not giving anything away on the setup.

I agree, actually, on Newbie Games not being flavored at all. But I don't see what's so hard about splitting the lists, if we define once and for all what falls into what, explicitly.

Re: Brite, I think there IS demand for Normal Games of all sizes. I just don't think it's 50% - more like 1/3, which is why a Normal/Themed/Mutated split makes sense to me.

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, duh. It just occurred to me that this:

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Could be leading some people to think "Any Role that is on the Wiki is Standard." Granted, that doesn't excuse Early Morning and the like, but I'll try to be helpful instead of obstructionist and come up with my personal bright-line list:

Absolutely Normal:

Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Serial Killer (incl. Arsonist), Mafia, Townie, Godfather.

I'd argue with Traitor, as it involves a weird alignment rule. The old wiki even listed Godfather, but not Roleblocker, Vigilante or Traitor, under Basic Roles.

Almost Certainly Normal:

Non-Sane Cops (except Random), Less Effective Doctors (incl. Bodyguard), Traitor/Spy, Role Cops such as Gunsmith/Burglar/FBI Agent/Psychiatrist, Bomb/Army Veteran (variant Vigilante), Nurse, Deputy, Mayor/Governor/whatever-we-call-the-Stop-a-Lynch-role, Werewolves and the above role names that go with them.

Maybe Normal:

Tracker/Lassie/Watcher, Hider, Cowardly Reporter, Commuter, Post-Restricted Role, Siblings/Lovers, Traitor, Bulletproof Townie, Cult (sorry PJ), Miller.

Probably Not Normal:

Scum Mason, Neighborhood Watch, Retired Cop, Inventor, Jester, Actor/Fool/Priest/Vote-Modifying Roles, Survivor, TFPTSLBOOIA, Switch/Framer/Target Changing Roles.

[Mr. Flay]

Arsonist is just a variant SK, isn't it? I don't see a difference between "SK", "Arsonist", "Psychopath", and "Cannibal" except in their kill methods. If those variations are not okay, I *definitely* want to know that. And their respective investigators just are Role Cops...

On the flip side of this discussion, Open Games are supposed to be Normal, but I definitely wouldn't call Vengeful "Normal", as the mechanics are rather weird. So we really need to get a grip on this...

[Mr. Flay]

And yet, mith's opening post on the Open Setup Discussion and Nominations thread says, "In order to be eligible for the Open Game list, a setup must fit the Normal Game definition. " Maybe it just needs to be updated; my point is that things aren't as clearcut as they appear at first.

And I'm not proposing that we Freeze in Stone For All Time the list of Basic/Normal Roles, only that without

some

concrete list, ambiguity and unintentional violations will continue to occur. I'd personally support your Jailkeeper (Mafia 37 in New York had a similar role, but it was part of the Mayor's lynch-protection) if it was nominated for later addition. But mith has a point, in that Normal Games shouldn't require any research beyond maybe going to the Wiki, and a role name should mean the same thing every time. Even if the Wiki does have to list the possible variations that are allowed...

[Mr. Flay]

I could see including 'backdrop' (good word) thematic setting as okay in Normals so long as all the Roles and Role PMs are completely standard. The Mafia in Sicily is much like the Mafia in New York or Chicago, is much like the Russian Mob, is much like the Irish Mob, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cr ... anizations contains a wealth of backdrop information, very little of which would actually have any effect on gameplay so long as the role PMs were neutral, right mith? Or are we all playing in 1940s Sicily/New York?

[Mr. Flay]

Stalling: yes, that's themed by current definitions, esp if "Mother" = Doc and Father = Roleblocker, for example.

[Mr. Flay]

The wiki (and the modding posts at the top of the Queue) have said for months if not years that even the setting/flavor should be 'normal'. I have justed edited the wiki to clarify (mith you can check me), but that's been the case all along.

[Mr. Flay]

FOS: Skruffs

, overly defensive.

Hey, mith, I had a thought last night. What about re-opening Sicily for "Normal" games and Normal Open games, making New York for "games based on Themes/Flavor but otherwise Normal", and Theme Park for Mafia Mutations/those with serious rule/mechanical changes?

Not sure about minis, I don't often want to run a mini that has vastly changed game mechanics, and most who do could probably run them as smaller games in the Theme Park (which might need a rename, if "themes' are in New York...hmmm).

Just a half-baked idea, don't shoot me.

::edit::

We could also have just two forums, but three waiting lists (four, really, counting Open Games).

[Mr. Flay]

Except that MBL made a really good point in the related thread:

A newbie comes to a site called "Mafiascum".

They're intrigued by the opportunity to roleplay a bunch of Mafia guys running around shooting innocents.

They complete a newbie game and sign up for another, where they're a Cop chasing after a bunch of Mafia guys who are shooting innocents.

Amazingly, this is still exciting and new for them. They do not in the least regret being unable to play a Habanero Pepper in a Trenchcoat searching for the Evil that is Sour Cream and Guacamole.

They like mafia so much they decide to sign up for a second simultaneous game in the Theme forum, where if they wish they are able to join PJ's game in which various flavors of peanut butter combat the evil bottles of nutella attempting to infiltrate the tasty town.

Free choice abounds, Big Brother is relegated to SK in Thok's 1984 theme game, and fun is had by all.

Where's the problem with this scenario?

If 'flavor' is allowed in Normal games, then there's no guarantee that what you're playing is 'Mafia', which is ostensibly what people came here to play. Let them

choose

to play Taco Mafia or Tuthreded or whatever, rather than having to guess from the title (or worse, no clue at all) that what they're playing is only related in Game Mechanics to Mafia/Werewolf.

[Mr. Flay]

TSQ: I think I'm confused on what you're considering 'light flavor', then. Is Early Morning lightly flavored? Is The 300 Mafia lightly flavored? What about a game utilizing the Yakuza? The problem is that 'theme' has been dual-purposed to mean both theme/flavor, and changes to game mechanics.

::edit:: Not sure what you mean, IH. Several people in the other thread have said that they were confused by 'flavored' newbies. What's hypothetical about that?

[Mr. Flay]

I can not comment on early morning, as I am in it. I shall not comment about 300, because I know nothing.

I'm not really sure what MBL was even talking about with that post though. He makes it seem like every single newbie would be happy to play mafia, and go no further, presenting extreme role ideas.

What I'm saying though, is for MBL's comment to be valid, you're going to need to find AT LEAST more than one newbie who does not enjoy flavor, and feels no regret at being a 'cool' role.

To simply only be a townie the majority of time with no expectations of the game to grow, and this is all there is to it.

C'mon guys, read the thread at least. Early Morning (I hate to keep picking on that game, but it's current) renamed roles completely away from the 'Mafia' theme. The 300 was a Newbie Game with roles from the film. MBL is talking about someone who wants to play 'Mafia' first, then branch out into themed games. It's not that hard.

Yes, I am aware of the fact that it HAS been used that way, but that's descriptive instead of prescriptive. Making an argument for how something is doesn't at all change how it should be.

I simply must be misunderstanding you here. Do you want the site to be descriptive or prescriptive? Because mith has been

trying

to make Normals and Newbies be Normal for at least a year (and has ALWAYS intended them to be so), which counts as both in my book. And the distinction is supposed to have been there since Theme Park and Themed Minis existed, but people disregard it regularly, and the List Mods have

asked

people if their game was normal, and then seen it go up with theme/flavor. Does that obviate mith's prerogative to have the site organized the way he wants? If so, go hive off somewhere and form your own site.

Look.

No one

is trying to do away with themed/flavored games in any way, shape, or form. All mith is asking for is a little truth-in-advertising, and I don't think that's too much to ask.

In my opinion flavor is defined as extra non game changing information, and 'theme' refers to complexity of mechanics.

Finally, we agree on something! I think the subforum idea has merit; maybe it would make more sense to have Normal Games, Theme Games, and Mafia Mutations as the major forums, with Little Italy and Sicily/New York under the first, Coney Island and unnamed-Themed-Large-Games-forum under the second, and Theme Park reserved for really weird mechanics changes and the like, no matter what the size.

[Mr. Flay]

There are few people who are going to wait through the mini theme list mod queue, or large theme to run a normal game with some flavor, but with roles and gameplay essentially the same.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The Mini Theme Queue is 9 mods long right now (less than two months, last I checked), with less people in it than the Mini Normal list for some reason. When I ran Reservoir Dogs, the list was about six months long!

Unless you're claiming that most of the people in Mini Normal want to run flavored games, I think there's too much hype to this claim. And if there is, then I'm sure something can be worked out, if demand is that high. MeMe might be able to supply numbers on how many games have started in Coney Island and Little Italy since the split, or how many old games had to be migrated to CI.

And there

is no waiting list

to run a Large Theme game, you just have to get stamped by Phoebus after running two other games. That seems to take a week or two, tops, once you get your game worked out. There used to be a Theme Queue but it was abandoned years ago in favor of the open model of the Theme Park.

[Mr. Flay]

You know, I forgot about the relatively new differences between Mini Normal and Mini Theme requirements, but I

am

sure that they could run Open Games as well, many of which are 5 or 7 player formats and would run even quicker than Mini Normals, right?

Hmmm. So many people are running 'lightly themed' games under the guise of Mini Normals, just so they can run heavily themed games later? That's probably a problem for mith's definition. More later, gotta go home.

[Mr. Flay]

Ok Flay. How many of the large theme games do you see that are normal games, that just have some flavor in it?

How many mod's do you know that are going to

want

to run a game like that?

Mafia v. Wolves Redux was supposed to be in New York, but was deemed to be too Themed (presumably because of the Wolves, something I disagree with). However it's an ongoing game that I'm in, so I can't say for sure.

For the record, I don't consider new roles nearly as game-breaking/game-weirding as game mechanic changes (Kingmaker, Survivor, Lights Out, Payola, etc). Your Mileage May Vary, but these Theme Park games seem to have normal mechanics and mostly normal roles:
MeMeMeet Mafia - mith game, specifically says it's not too weird except the theme.
Wheel of Time Mafia consisted of all pre-existing roles.
LOST Mafia seems to be mainly normal, with some minor variations in roles.
Best of the Internet Mafia seems normal.
Cultural Revolution Mafia seems normal.
Pooky Mafia 2 seems to be mainly normal.
College Mafia looks completely normal.
Stephen King Mafia looks almost entirely normal, a few semi-powered Townies.
Kirby Mafia looks normal.
Star Wars Quote Mafia had a few new roles.
Roald Dahl Mafia had a reflector, maybe one other new role.
Literary doesn't seem to have had any mechanics changes; hard to say about the roles since it ended early.
Bible Verse Mafia might be normal roles, hard to tell since Cadmium never posted the full set.

And that's just the closed games on the first page. Alphabet Soup, Firefly, Good Omens, Nativity (mostly, some shifty roles), Jeepfest, Penthouse, South Park...about half of them, all total.

[Mr. Flay]

I don't think flavor of that degree is useful. But my death scenes in Suspicion in Sicily contain a lot more information than the actual role PMs did; the name of the hospital the Doctor worked at, for example. Or that Cubsfan just liked to watch American Baseball... things like that. I'm pretty sure I stated outright once that none of that has any game effect, but it doesn't seem to be impacting the game any.

[Mr. Flay]

Interesting, the two queues that are 'empty' right now are Large Normal and Mini Theme. Is that just a result of the bottleneck from all the new 2007 players being in the Mini Normal queue? Or are all our themers going to Phoebus for larger games...?

[Mr. Flay]

*bump* Anything new on this front? I'm especially curious if mith will come down from the mountain with what roles are on the Normal list...

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, just ask MeMe, she's happy to vett Mini Normals for excessive weirdness (if I remember right, the rule is still "no more than one point of weirdness in roles or mechanics in Normal Games"). So a Cop with a one-shot NK would probably be fine.

Too many people assume the rules are a lot more restrictive than they actually are. There have been some brilliant Mini Normals; NabNab's 518 springs to mind, as does the original Swift Speed Werewolves game. I see Mini 568 got high praise as well.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm confused, Jitsu. How are Theme Park (Large Themes) and Coney Island (Mini Themes) not already doing what you're speaking of?

Or are you talking about defining "Flavored" as being no harder than "Normal" to qualify for, with "Themed" being the one-game-requirement forums? I'd say no, as Flavored games require some additional skills to balance right.

[Mr. Flay]

Classic (Normal) = Italian or Werewolf theme only
Light Flavor (Flavored) = A different background setting, but something a "classic" mafia player would be able to pick up easily
Heavy Flavor/Highly Customized (Theme) = uses nonstandard rules/roles or heavily themed content

I was really just trying to come up with an idea that would accomodate Mith's desires for Classic games while trying to keep the "de facto lightly-themed MafiaScum game" standard alive.

I get what you're saying, and for what it's worth I agree with you. But mith's said that he doesn't want Normal Games to become Red Cake vs. Blue Cake (we had to fight a bit to get Werewolf allowed).

But I can see his point; since we're called

Mafia

scum, it's not fair to a newbie to sign up for a Mini Normal (where they don't get a choice of two games, like in Mini Theme) and end up in some off-the-wall scenario that they didn't expect.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure fixed deadlines won't violate normality. They're barely even a game mechanic, more like a forum mechanic.

[Mr. Flay]

Actually, what he's talking about is sometimes called "Semi Open"; it doesn't detail exactly what

is

in the game, only what could be.