Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[mith]

This has been sort of an ongoing struggle for a while, and I think it's time to have a/another public discussion about it.

The current definition of "Normal" as applies to are Queue rules are here: MafiaWiki: Normal Game.

To start with, if you are running a game on one of the Normal lists (which includes Newbie games), and you are not following these,

you are breaking the rules

. I understand that some people disagree with the guidelines, but I think we could find someone to disagree with just about any rule we have, whether Queue rule or Game rule or Forum rule or otherwise.

I'm getting tired of checking a forum on occasion and seeing that several of the mods are ignoring these rules. I was just looking at Little Italy a moment ago, where we currently have Early Morning, Western, Anime, Futuristic, Vampire, and Ogre games. That's

two thirds

of the games currently active from the Mini Normal list. These all have themes, by any reasonable definition.

Now, a lot of you will say "But mith, it's just

flavor

, it's not

really

a theme." And I can understand where you're coming from, to a point. The themed "Mini Normal" games generally do have basic roles, just with renaming/flavor on top.

However, while we

could

make that distinction, I will restate that currently

we do not

.

So, two main points:

One, I'm not sure what the answer is, but the blatant disregard for the rules has got to stop. We can discuss changing the rules (as I'll get to in point two), but unless/until the rules are changed, the rules need to be enforced.

Allowing people to break this particular rule is unfair on the mods who are following it - for example, those joining the Mini Theme queue with its generally longer wait (though at the moment it's apparently shorter... so I'm baffled by mods with the appropriate experience going to the Mini Normal queue to run their theme games!). It's unfair on the mods that I've sent messages to in the past asking them to remove things from their games that break the rules. It's unfair on the players who sign up for a Normal game expecting what's in those guidelines and getting stuck with something else. And it's unfair on me and the List Mods, because we really don't want to have to police the forums for stuff like this.

Two, this is an oppotunity for discussion of this particular rule. Believe it or not, I do have reasons for these guidelines. I didn't just arbitrarily come up with them. That doesn't mean they're set in stone. I am always willing to consider changing pretty much anything on this site, so long as it is done in the right way - that is, after discussion and consideration, rather than people just choosing to ignore what they don't like.

So, a quick list of reasons, which I will expand on as needed:

a. This is a

Mafia

site. The game we play has plenty of different names, but our "flavor" is Mafia. That doesn't mean we can't have theme games; I like them as much as anyone. But what it does mean is that we have a place for Mafia-themed games, the Normal queues, as that's our mainstay.
b. This mostly applies to the Newbie queue, but even some of the bigger themed-posing-as-normal games I've seen (/played in) are confusing to the players. If a new player signs up for this Mafia thing they've been told about, and then finds himself in a game about Invisible Ninja Pirate Tigers, at best they're going to be a little confused until they separate the flavor from the actual game, and at worst they're going to be put off and leave the site.
c. This doesn't apply to open/semi-open games, but adding flavor to a closed game, even if it's just surface element over a normal role, adds something extra to the gameplay (and no, adding something to the gameplay is not always a good thing). It adds role names - generally more confirmable than generic names. It adds a level of outguessing-the-mod ("Would the mod make X a Doc?"). It adds complexity to the fake-claim-game. And all of that is fine in some games; otherwise, we wouldn't have theme games at all. But it shouldn't be in all (or even most) of our games.
d. Minor, but I feel that new players learn better in a more "standard" environment. In part, because it avoids the confusion thing in (b) but also because it gives everyone common ground for discussion. If a player's first experiences are as Townies, Mafia, Cop, Doc, it will be easier for them to discuss those roles, and they have a solid foundation for handling more complicated things in future games. I don't think that foundation would be as solid for someone whose first few roles were "Hotdog", "The Color Green", and "Jellyfish".
e. The same goes for new mods. Part of the reason we have modding requirements is so mods get an idea for how the basics work (on this site)

before

moving on to more complicated things (included non-Mafia flavor). I'm sure some completely new mods can work out the potential pitfalls from (c) and adjust accordingly, but I don't believe all of them can.

Anyway, that's a start. Discuss.

[Raffles]

I actually haven't played a "normal" game in little Italy yet...

One thing I do say though is that definition of "theme game" has changed over time. It might just have started as just a flavour at the beginning, (i.e. Werewolf, Western, NYPD etc) but over time it got more and more skewed to have roles that are specific to the theme. This includes stuff like, Simpsons or Harry Potter.

The way I see it, the "normal" game is a game with just very basic roles, and the "theme games" contain complex roles, like lovers, or insane cops.

I agree that there should be a place for generic mafia games. But I think maybe dedicating an entire sub-forum for it might be a little too much.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I think it's human nature to have tendencies towards adding more flavor, interest, etc. to mafia games. This is probably the cause of the expansion of the definition of "normal" that has proliferated to a point where it's too out of control unless there is much stricter enforcedment of the rules.

[JDodge]

Adding light flavor is not such a problem; the problem comes when people start adding elements like role names and such, where it drastically changes the game to "Let's Outguess the Mod".

[Patrick]

Yes, that is what I was going to say. Some of the games listed up there by mith have role names, some not. The way I always split themed and normal in my mind is that themed games give everyone a role name so that every player is unique, while in normal games several players can be exactly the same (generic vanilla townie).

I don't mind light flavour in the normal forum, but I think there should be no role names.

[Glork]

I'm okay with leaving the rules as they are and simply enforcing them more strictly. As far as Little Italy/New York games go, "Suspicion in Sicily" is perfectly acceptable in terms of

flavor

. It's a catchy little name, but it keeps with the normal, mafia-esque theme. The afore-mentioned topics are what I see as

themes

.

My biggest concern is that changing the rules won't actually clear anything up... I think it'll just blur the lines somewhere else. For example, we'd have to make sure everybody knows what roles are "normal".... or how much flavor constitutes an actual "theme" (which is essentially the debate we're having right now).

[mith]

The way I see it, the "normal" game is a game with just very basic roles, and the "theme games" contain complex roles, like lovers, or insane cops.

The way I always split themed and normal in my mind is that themed games give everyone a role name so that every player is unique, while in normal games several players can be exactly the same (generic vanilla townie).

A pet peeve of mine in this particular discussion is people redefining the terms to suit their preferences. The question here is really not

What is a theme?

, but

What is normal? What is our standard game?

I get tired of people saying (for example) "Western Mafia isn't

really

a theme game, it's just a bit of flavor." - as I said before, any reasonable definition of "theme" will include "Western". The complexity of the game is a whole other axis.

If you think the Normal definition should be changed, by all means, say so. But don't claim that the definition is

really

something else, when it's right there in black and white.

I can only assume that some mods thought that when I set up the Normal/Theme divide, what I really meant was a Basic/Complex divide (which is silly; if I had meant that, I would've chosen more appropriate names), and since we've had some many "normal" games that were actually themed, everyone has gotten it into their heads that "theme" means something else. Explains why everyone ignores the actual rules, I guess, but that doesn't make it ok.

[Patrick]

If you think the Normal definition should be changed, by all means, say so. But don't claim that the definition is really something else, when it's right there in black and white.

I didn't claim that the definition really is something else. I said that in my mind, that is always how I've made the distinction. And it has worked reliably.

I don't mind if someone wants to add a little flavour to a completely normal setup. If a game has just basic roles "townie" "cop" etc. and has no role names, I don't see how any newbies are going to get confused. And there is no outguessing the mod. One of the games you cited - Futuristic Mafia, is actually just an open setup of 7 townies, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 scum. Nothing confusing at all. I can't see why that is a concern, but there you go.

[mith]

It's a concern because it is explicitly against the rules...

But if you mean "why should that be against the rules?", see (a) and Glork's post. That particular game is very low on the bothering-me scale, but it's a slippery slope. The line has to be drawn somewhere (unless we just get rid of the distinction entirely), and the line we have is the easiest one to use.

[Raffles]

Okay then,I think the definition should be changed. I don't see a need for dedicating the entire sub-forum for just one flavour.

[Patrick]

I suppose it is against the rules strictly, so what I am saying really is the same as what Raffles just said. The having or not having role names distinction might work, in that not having role names takes away many of the problems you cited in your first post (outguessing the mod, confusion for newbies). I think role names should be saved for themed games only.

[Kelly Chen]

Real quick.

I would like to define "normal" for the use of a player who is signing up for a random game without knowing anything about it. They should be able to play the game without difficulties arising from lacking special knowledge or not being able to guess how the mod creates flavor. The big thing here, my personal rule of thumb, is that in a normal game scum should be able to effectively fake claim without special knowledge or insight.

In my opinion even a game that has mafia flavor and very standard roles will violate this principle when it doesn't reveal at least the townie PM (or if it does this but doesn't make townie a viable claim), or give scum specific guidance on how a town role PM might be written.

Of the

five

six(can't count) Little Italy games mith lists, Futuristic and Vampire are fully open, and Western provides the townie PM. I'd only be annoyed (as a player signed up for a random normal mini) if I found myself playing in the other

two

three.

EWP: Well from mith's last post to Patrick I don't know whether this post is even welcome. I want to come up with practical reasons here to have one definition over another. That's what I took the discussion part to be.

Regarding mith's specific points.

a. Ok. There's not really a way to argue about this.
b. I agree we can get a confusion issue pretty quickly in newbie games.
c. Agree wrt closed setups.
d. Agree, especially wrt newbie games.
e. I'm not persuaded by this since you could require setup review for new mods. I don't think it would be a terrible idea. Also, I suspect that if a new mod is doing something potentially problematic with his setup then that suggests already that this isn't a normal setup.

EWP LOL Raffles, there are three subforums dedicated to mafia flavor only.

[Simenon]

What about games with no flavor at all?[/code]

[Raffles]

Every game has a flavour. Even if it is based on Sicilian Mafia, that's technically "a flavour".

I think the definition of a normal game should be

"Generic role name is given in PM. No other name is given."

And for the sake of newbies, the newbie games should be kept as current normal definition, i.e. based on mafia. Nothing else.

[MeMe]

I'm okay with leaving the rules as they are and simply enforcing them more strictly.

Any suggestions on how to do this?

My biggest concern is that changing the rules won't actually clear anything up... I think it'll just blur the lines somewhere else. For example, we'd have to make sure everybody knows what roles are "normal"....

There's the link mith provided in the first post of this queue, which is

also linked in the first post of the normal mini queue

. I'm not getting how any moderator DOESN'T know.

or how much flavor constitutes an actual "theme" (which is essentially the debate we're having right now).

mith's already answered this. Any flavor other than mafia flavor makes it themed.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, years ago, when we first split the mini queue in two, I disagreed with mith over what "theme" means. I thought that as long as the mechanics were straightforward and it wasn't based on source material (movie, book, etc) , it could be run as "normal." Basically, I'd categorize "Vegetable" and "School" mafia as normal because you don't need research those -- everyone is already familiar with the concepts.

But mith's "normal" vision is different than mine and

he's the boss

. Disagreeing is fine, ignoring rules because you disagree

isn't

.

[mith]

I think what Glork was saying was that if the Normal rule was changed from "no non-Mafia flavor" to "some non-Mafia flavor is ok as long as it's just flavor", it would just move the argument to "how much is ok?".

And that's where the "slippery slope" comes in. MeMe's suggestion back in the day is certain a valid one (in the sense of being something we could possibly have used instead of what we have now), but a bit tricky to define. Even something like "School"... the general concept might be familiar to everyone, but given that we've got scummers all over the world and "School" means something different in different places...

[Thok]

b. This mostly applies to the Newbie queue, but even some of the bigger themed-posing-as-normal games I've seen (/played in) are confusing to the players. If a new player signs up for this Mafia thing they've been told about, and then finds himself in a game about Invisible Ninja Pirate Tigers, at best they're going to be a little confused until they separate the flavor from the actual game, and at worst they're going to be put off and leave the site.

Are there any actual examples of this (specifically the scaring people from the site part/but to some extent the confusing players also)? I mean, I accept that it could hypothetically happen, but it seems like an extreme reaction.

I will comment that most of the time an addition of a specific theme to an otherise normal setup is mostly for the mod's benefit, to give them a chance to fantasize/write about a setting they like. From that point of view, I could see requiring straight mafia flavor as a way to control mod interference/avoid mod mistakes.

(As a side note, I believe that part of the reason you've been having issues with this now is that the Mafia Flavor requirement hasn't been rigourously and uniformly enforced in the past. I have no problems abiding with these guidelines, but make it clear that those are the guidelines.)

[mith]

I haven't received any specific complaints from new players leaving the site, no (but then, they usually disappear without a word, so it's hard to say why any of them leave). I can only speculate on a newbie reaction based on what I would think, and if my very first experience with the game was in some of our more "colorful" newbie games, I think it's very possible I wouldn't have stuck with the game.

I know I've seen some players say they were confused by flavor in role PMs before (not being able to work out what their role actually was, for example). Can't think where, off the top of my head. And from personal experience, I can refer to Mini 266 (though that falls more under (c) than (b)).

Agreed on the "mostly for the mod" thing. And on the enforcement. The enforcement is tricky, though. The List Mods (and I) do a lot of other things, and often the flavor isn't so immediately obvious as in the Little Italy games I mentioned (for example, in the Newbie games I think the number with "titles" has gone down, but some of the games that are simply titled "Newbie X" do have flavor inside). And as you pointed out a few weeks ago, once a game has started it's often more harmful to do anything about it. It's not like we're going to start closing Newbie games because the mod keeps putting flavor in.

[Kelly Chen]

Something that is not strictly for the mod's benefit is to have at least SOME gimmick to offer to people passing by the Replacements thread. So that they aren't forced to actually open up the game thread and have a look at the ailing beast if they want to compare their options.

[Glork]

I'm okay with leaving the rules as they are and simply enforcing them more strictly.

Any suggestions on how to do this?

Not yet. I'm thinking on it.

My biggest concern is that changing the rules won't actually clear anything up... I think it'll just blur the lines somewhere else. For example, we'd have to make sure everybody knows what roles are "normal"....

There's the link mith provided in the first post of this queue, which is

also linked in the first post of the normal mini queue

. I'm not getting how any moderator DOESN'T know.

or how much flavor constitutes an actual "theme" (which is essentially the debate we're having right now).

mith's already answered this. Any flavor other than mafia flavor makes it themed.

Erm.. you're missing my point. I agree with the current definitions because they are the easiest to make

clearly

defined. My point is that if we try to change the current definitions, we'll end up with all sorts of problems. Basically, Mith caught the general point of my post....

[Thok]

I think just raising public awareness of the rules helps with enforcement.

I think that for Newbie games, enforcement is fairly straightforward; take a look at the role PM's and the intro post; if they have anything to do with anything other than mafia invading a town, send a firm PM to the moderator in question.

One quick comment; I don't think there's anywhere in the rules/wiki that actually says Newbie games are required to be normal games. (This is clearly an oversight, given that we know your intention; the presence or absence of flavor in Newbie Games is simply not mentioned. Probably there was no expectation that people would add flavor on top of the variou basic setups.)

[The Fonz]

The thing is though, there are people who quite like the odd amusing flavour (I don't see the harm in WW mafia with outlaws and a sherriff), but like the basic roles as well. I don't want to join a queue that risks me ending up in a game with a death miller, for example, just because i think it might be more fun once in a while to mix in a futuristic or underwater (etc) spin on the standard 'Guys in fedoras who say 'fuhgeddaboutit' background.

[HurriKaty]

This is a really bad time to be having this discussion for me, when my mafia I spent ages preparing is 8/12 full and now apparently, I have to redo everything in a couple of days.

Now I'm gonna go cry.

[mith]

I would suggest that that makes this the perfect time to discuss it (before the game starts). I'm sorry you've got to redo stuff, but the rules have been there for years (and, for nearly a year in that particular form).

[Shanba]

What constitutes normal flavour though? Are werewolves normal, or only mafia? Should there be a generic PM for each role that is standardised throughout the site? Even with only mafia flavour, it's possible to get quite creative.