Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[superstring91]

as far as i can see, this discussion is about drawing the line between normal, and theme. and about drawing the line between theme and flavour. i believe that some flavor is required, because flavor heightens the enjoyment. i don't think that flavor should carry over to all the names, and abillities of characters, as this would create a theme.

i also think drawing the line is important for new mods. they need to know what they can and can't include in their games. i am in the process of creating a mini normal game, [1 mafia GF, 2 mafia, 1 SK, 1 doc, 1 cop, 6 town] and all of the characters are normal, except the SK, who is an invading frenchman. should that go in the theme section? or is it still a normal?

so, i guess i'll leave with this question:

How much flavour till it's a theme?

[superstring91]

. One of the games you cited - Futuristic Mafia, is actually just an open setup of 7 townies, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 scum. Nothing confusing at all. I can't see why that is a concern, but there you go.

And another, Ogre Village, seems to have a hider and an inventor, and I can't work out for the life of me how it got into 'Mini Normal.'

Hider and inventor aren't normal roles? They're both defined in the Wikki, I believe.

so now we need to define normal roles too? man, this is getting kinda crazy

[superstring91]

Perhaps we could split the minis into 3 categories

Normal Mafia - As the current rule suggests
Flavored Mafia - A normal game with plenty of flavor, but standard game mechanics and roles
Themed Mafia - Game bassed around a specific theme

the way im seeing the forum divided right now is this:
Games with similar mechanics stay in one spot.
Games with different mechanics go away from the afformentioned "similar" games.

MS can be likened to a supermarket:
the market is MS
the food items are the games

toaster strudels and poptarts are two different pasteries, but are both in the same area. however, doughnuts[also pastries] are in a completely different area.

so, you see, similar things in one area. different things in another.

i believe that game mechanics should determine where a game goes.
then we get to the question: what about games that are definitely themed[like on a book or movie] but have normal mechanics?

my answer to this is that games with a theme that goes beyond flavour go in the theme area.

to differentiate between theme and flavour, simple guidelines could be setup, as questions mods should ask themselves to determine where their game should go. like:

1. does my game have standard roles?
2. does my game have any special mechanics?
3. does my game have an underlying theme that will come into play often?
4. how often will my flavor[or theme] come into play?

these questions of course should be refined, but i think something like this will help clear the air, especially for newer mods

[superstring91]

On the flavor side, only the setup and mod's posts should have any flavor in a Normal- it shouldn't enter into the role PM, affect play or affect the ability to claim. It should be only a touch of flair that makes getting to what role the person lynched or found dead had more entertaining.

[/opinion]

so, you're saying that you would prefer role PMs to say something like:

You are the serial killer. you can target 1 person every night to be killed. you win when you are the sole survivor.

over

You are a Frenchman, and you are sick of those damn Italians, with their pasta, and their olives, and their gardens, and their olive gardens. Enough is enough. Your goal is to get rid of them all. You can kill once per night. You win when everyone else is dead.

i think flavor in a role PM creates the character. it provides motive. it makes being that character more fun

[superstring91]

superstring, no one would ever claim their SK flavor. What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

But let's say that was a cop role PM.

You are a Frenchman, and you are sick of those damn Italians, with their pasta, and their olives, and their gardens, and their olive gardens. Enough is enough.

You can investigate somebody every night and see if they're Italian scum. You win with the town.

Now if I'm scum and think I'm going to try fake claiming cop, or even some other role, if you or someone ask me what kind of flavor I have, and I just make something up, there's a good chance you'll decide I'm lying because it's not similar to your real flavor.

That is a bad thing for a normal game.

i suppose that role flavor isnt completely important to game play, but I'm a bit of a writer, and i like to give characters motive. and in this case, the "frenchman" SK does have releveance to the flavor:
the frenchman role i posted is from a game im designing, and frenchman sightings were mentioned in the flavor intro

i used this to exemplify a flavored PM as opposed to a mechanical, cut & dry PM

EDIT: this is not supposed to be a discussion on what goes into PMs, but how to distinguish normal from themed games,
i suppose that PMs go a bit into the theme, but in most cases, it's not consequential

[superstring91]

forgot to add:

What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

unimportant to gameplay, but makes it more enjoyable for the player, which ultimately affects gameplay.
and i think that most players like the game better if they have a mod who puts time and effort into what he is doing, which is ultimately telling a story[of course based on the actions of the town]

[superstring91]

so, role PMs in a normal have to be cold? i don't like that at all

as i said earlier, in my view, the mod is a story teller. that story is about the players, who assume roles and become characters. its the mod's responsibility to bring them to life. one way to enhance these characters is through the PM.

i dont think a game should be classified as themed by its role PMs

[superstring91]

as i said earlier, in my view, the mod is a story teller. that story is about the players, who assume roles and become characters. its the mod's responsibility to bring them to life. one way to enhance these characters is through the PM.

I don't entirely agree. I think it is the mod's role to bring the story to life, but it's the players and their imaginations that ascertain how much those players get from the story. I would imagine that if I got a "cold" role PM saying I was the doctor, I could apply that to whatever 'backdrop' theme was given to the game without needing a mod-written PM spelling it out for me.

But that's just me, I'm sure some people love getting their role PM dripping in loads of flavour etc - I just think the flavour of the game itself and the setting of it is more important for building a storyline than the individual role PMs.

As I say though, that's just my personal opinion and I'm sure there are others.

i agree a lot with what you've said here, and i absoleutely agree that the flavor of the game, and setting are more important, but Role PM is the icing, the cherry on top, if you will.

i love PMs with flavor. and i can do fine with a cold PM, but i prefer to write flavorful PMs

[superstring91]

@superstring: If there Normals are determined to have a standard list of available roles with standard PMs, then the next step up the complexity scale is Themed "Normals" where flavor is used. It could range from being just flowery roles and maybe individual names all the way up to the line between themed and mutated/experimental type games.

i hate that idea.
"normal" should not be standard.
if all normal games were created on this basis, then every game would be the same. nothing would change.
modding is an art. an art of creation. not an art of copying and pasting.
i can see having a list of "normal" roles, and perhaps some

suggested

PMs but saying "these are the roles you can use, and these are the only role PMs you can use for them" is wrong. it takes all the fun out of modding, and doesnt teach new mods anything.

i dont think having a "themed normal" section is the answer.
i think the answer is drawing the line between theme and flavor. this should be done by restriction of roles, and mechanics.
if there is anything with special roles, or special mechanics[most likely brought about by roles] those games should go in the "theme" section

[superstring91]

The wiki (and the modding posts at the top of the Queue) have said for months if not years that even the setting/flavor should be 'normal'. I have justed edited the wiki to clarify (mith you can check me), but that's been the case all along.

i think this may be the best way to go, for a while at least. it includes flavor, and setting.

i think the only thing we need to add is a list of roles, because that seems to be a disputed topic right now.

[superstring91]

What about subforums? I assume that this type of forum can have them....

I was thinking of this for the mini games.

Keep Little italy, but open up a subforum inside of Little Italy, for Closed Mini Flavoreds. Have the same requirements and signups as a mini regular, but with the freedom of flavor being closed (with the person noting when they get in to mod whether it's flavored or not).

This way nothing in the flow of things is really interrupted, except we now have a place for the middle ground games which so many run, without really changing things up.

would the modding requirements [ie: simple tenure and 1 game played, 2 games modded...] change? or could you choose between a flavored mini, and a "regular" mini as your first mod game?

edit: and, once again, where do you draw the line between flavor, and regular? is it a matter of role names? or setting? what?

[superstring91]

so are we defining "regular" mini as
choose from list of roles
no flavor at all.
?

if flavor is just role names, i dont think IC status should be required to run a flavored mini.

[superstring91]

I think this whole discussion, as you could probably have guessed from my last comment is preposterous. If it ain't broke, then don't fucking fix it. There is nothing at all wrong with the way games are set up/ divided now. The rules should just be changed to reflect what has been going on for EVER, and that should be that. I think an overwelming majority of people on this site would favor the term 'normal' allowing flavor. We should just do that, and all this will disapear.

i totally agree that normal should allow some flavor. that's what ive been saying. we just have to draw the line between flavor and a theme

[superstring91]

There are few people who are going to wait through the mini theme list mod queue, or large theme to run a normal game with some flavor, but with roles and gameplay essentially the same.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The Mini Theme Queue is 9 mods long right now (less than two months, last I checked), with less people in it than the Mini Normal list for some reason. When I ran Reservoir Dogs, the list was about six months long!

i think the recent influx of newbies is the explanation to this.
newbies have always been coming in, and january's batch is just now able to start modding. and the first game you run has to be in the mini normal forum.

i think our major problem in this discussion is the definition of flavor.
the way i see flavor is:
a theme, if you will, that does not change gameplay at all, but adds setting, and enjoyment to the game. ie: sicilian, werewolf, lobsters.
a theme is:
a game that may require background information,

and

game mechanic is changed. ie: simpsons, most published works, timebomb.

[superstring91]

a theme is:
a game that may require background information,

and

game mechanic is changed. ie: simpsons, most published works, timebomb.

Well, and/or. If it requires research/uses specific character names from a specific source, then it's a theme, even if it uses all standard mafia rules and normal mafia roles fit to characters from that theme, because that alone adds a different element to the game.

ya, i was going to say that, but i forgot about it.
i agree, btw

[superstring91]

i think our major problem in this discussion is the definition of flavor.
the way i see flavor is:
a theme, if you will, that does not change gameplay at all, but adds setting, and enjoyment to the game. ie: sicilian, werewolf, lobsters.

I'm scum in a game about Lobsters. How do I claim cop?

If the answer is anything more complicated than "I am a Lobster Cop, no flavor" then I think the lobster setting has changed the gameplay.

right, i agree, and i suppose i shouldve been more specific.

if i were to run a normal, lobster flavored game, i would have roles like that.

lobster cop
doctor lobster
king crab[GF]
crab legs[mafia goons]
shrimp[townies]

i suppose that this is really seafood mafia eh?

as you can see, this doesnt change gameplay one bit, but it makes scenes that the mod writes more interesting.

EDIT:

So long as the introductory mod post has enough information so the scum can fake claims without a problem ("The year: 1929. The City: New York. The mafia are taking over. Kill them all." and perhaps an example of the basic townie PM), and so long as the mod avoids giving away unneeded information in role PM's, I don't see a problem there.

right. the intro should have plenty of information about the roles

[superstring91]

ok, so i messed up a setup that was off the top of my head.
in an open setup it wouldnt matter. im used to open setups as i play mostly meatworld games.

perhaps games with a theme like that that are closed setups should go in the theme section

[superstring91]

after the server switch, this discussion really lost steam.
i think it is still relavent, though [unless the all-creator has made his decision]
anyway, id like to resume discussion of this

here's what i think:
normal should be defined as:
1. no change to game mechanic
2. no outside research necessary

earlier someone had said that in a game with role names, claiming becomes a game of outguessing the mod.
claiming is always outguessing the mod. even in a non-flavoured game

when you claim, you need to think about what the mod would say in role PMs:
if you are claiming cop;
do i find innocent vs guilty, or mafia vs town?
and how do i play it off if i'm wrong?

now it does get more complicated with a published theme like homer simpson;
someone has already cop-claimed
i do research on homer and find that there is an episode where homer created his own security firm "SpringShield"
i claim "Homer Simpson of SpringShield" and explain that ive played in smaller games with multiple real cops. i get off scott free

so, i think that "themed" should be published works, and/or mechanic changes

and normal should be left with
"flavor is acceptable"
rolenames are allowed [like "charlie the cuddly cnidarian" or "gary the gullibale green gopher" etc. etc.]