Open 885: Backup6 [Game Over]

[T3]

Die

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

[T3]

i definitely like yeeting and fading people

on another site I played on they just used the word "linch"

People kept messing up so much that the admins had to blacklist both words, you would get an error message if you typed either word

[T3]

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

[T3]

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

Nope, I’m afraid to burst the bubble but that was me attempting sarcasm… through text… like a moron.

Don’t town clear me off the lamest of attempts at humour please.

Town clear rescinded

[T3]

okay then

VOTE: Black

[T3]

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Reasoning for my read: I thought the way that Black said this was weird. Like, why not explain why Generic's solving could be a good or bad sign?

[T3]

okay then

VOTE: Black

You misspelled CCGeek.

who

[T3]

VOTE: T3

[T3]

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Reasoning for my read: I thought the way that Black said this was weird. Like, why not explain why Generic's solving could be a good or bad sign?

there's not really much to explain. i thought Generic's read felt natural

Yeah but it was the way you phrased it that felt weird. Either way, I'm just grasping at straws to get discussion going.

[T3]

The one thing I'm probably not sold on is T3's faux(?) aggression

What about it?

[T3]

Me forgetting to quote the post it was referencing be like:
My bad, though.

Die

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

What? This is literally just random RVS stuff.

[T3]

Estimated completed games:
Have you had victories in a mafia team?:
Favourite alignment:

Estimated completed games: 25? 30? Probably a few hundred on EpicMafia and mafia.gg.
Have you had victories in a mafia team?: My winrate as scum is 45% or so.
Favorite alignment: Scum. Fakeclaiming is my favorite part of the game!

[T3]

Estimated completed games:
Have you had victories in a mafia team?:
Favourite alignment:

Estimated completed games: 25? 30? Probably a few hundred on EpicMafia and mafia.gg.
Have you had victories in a mafia team?: My winrate as scum is 45% or so.
Favorite alignment: Scum. Fakeclaiming is my favorite part of the game!

That’s a good win rate for a role that is sometimes out of your own hands. Get the wrong team around you and it’s like cycling up a mountain.

I think the average scum winrate on MS is 48% or something lmao

[T3]

But I do have a question for you. In a 9p game, what do you think constitutes as a wagon?

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this question? I'd say 3 out of 8 possible votes qualifies as a wagon

Was an attempt to fish for the statement you made about not minding T3's vote.

T3's vote felt natural and I like the reasoning behind it (wanting to start discussion)

Your vote feels forced and there doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind it other than you think I might be scum based on a weak tone read

Well yeah, but my read on you was also a weak tone read. If anything, CCGeek had more substance to his scumread that - I couldn't properly put into words why I scumread you. CCG's scumread of you was just my scumread of you, but phrased better.

[T3]

VOTE: black

I think CCGeek's push on you is too inconsistent to be scum, Black

this kinda feels like a perspective slip? in one breath you vote for me, and in the next you talk to me like you think i'm town

Just when I think that Black can't get scummier

[T3]

rereading makes me think dannflor is the towniest out of those on my wagon. his push on me has felt the most organic. originally i had issues with 124 because it felt like an over-the-top response to me voting for him. after isoing him and cross examining with his other posts, i feel dannflor is being genuine in his suspicions here. while i don't completely agree with some of the points made in this post, it still feels more natural than any of the pushes so far

Dannflor's reasoning for voting Black was because she was discrediting him. Now, it seems like Black is doing the exact opposite and is going out of her way to not discredit Dannflor.

[T3]

my natural reaction is to get defensive when someone is wrong about me. that's just how my brain works. i realize that may seem scummy but it's something i do naturally regardless of alignment

what are your thoughts on Generic? and can you elaborate on 158?

I doubt generic is scum. His posting feels very very natural.

As for 158 your read there just didn’t seem real. I think town!you would have more self-doubt in that scenario.

[T3]

Reading page 9, there is no way that scum!Generic goes and thunderdomes Black here. No way in hell.

[T3]

my gut townread of T3 has faded a bit. i can see him being a Generic partner after his last two posts were basically run in, shade me, run out

You’re right - my attention has been divided today so I haven’t been reading as in-depth as I’d like to be.

[T3]

I don't think this game will ever progress without a black lim tbf

[T3]

[Generic, Dunnstral]
[Dannflor]
[CCGeek, camelCasedSnivy]
[Aureal]
[Black]

I'd guess that iavh is a fairly meta readable player so that's up next on my list

[T3]

I was in the middle of typing up a post and then I refresh the page and see this

[T3]

you think aureal and black make sense as scum partners?

No. First there was Aureal and Black’s friendly interaction in the early pages which I don’t usually see come from scum. As far as I can tell, Black and Aureal know each other from another site or IRL or something and if they were scum also I doubt that they would have this interaction in the thread. In fact, I had an MS game a while ago in which I rolled scum with a guy I was friends with on another site and we kept all of our excitement at seeing each other in the scum PT.

As for Aureal’s defense of Black, I can’t see that coming from s/s either. I think the defense is scummy in of itself because Aureal claims that Black is towny and only posts the defense later. However, I doubt Aureal would be so aggressive about defending Black if they were both scum.


Plus in 198 I would expect s/s Black/Aureal to townread each other more. But Black says that she can’t get much of a read on Aureal, and says that Aureal both pockets and defends her as town and scum. I can see that post coming from town!Black who is concerned about pocketing or scum!Black who wants to keep the option of a town!Aureal lim open.

[T3]

also why is dunnstral so high

I think I just liked his thought process about your scumread on Black, it seemed fairly natural and believable. He's more "null town" than "lean town" however.

[T3]

Or sorry, more "lean town" than "town"

[T3]

I don't think this game will ever progress without a black lim tbf

VOTE: T3

I don't think he is trying to solve the game. He voted for me on page 2 and since then almost every post has been a timely pop-in to keep the pressure on me. This post feels like an excuse to not do anything until I'm faded

Sure? I mean, I have reads on players that are not you but I haven't been particularly expressive of those reads. I understand where this read comes from though.

[T3]

I hate the idea that we're obligated to yeet Black now because of claim stuff

Did anyone actually ever say this???

[T3]

pedit: T3 i kind of think you said that too lol

[/quote]Yeah but not because of the whole claim situation lol

[T3]

if i assume black is town

then i think scum is just [iavh/dunnstral]

Maybe? Iavh is almost always LHF though

[T3]

meowmeow gives Datisi or Ausuka vibes

[T3]

VOTE: Dannflor

[T3]

you think aureal and black make sense as scum partners?

No. First there was Aureal and Black’s friendly interaction in the early pages which I don’t usually see come from scum. As far as I can tell, Black and Aureal know each other from another site or IRL or something and if they were scum also I doubt that they would have this interaction in the thread. In fact, I had an MS game a while ago in which I rolled scum with a guy I was friends with on another site and we kept all of our excitement at seeing each other in the scum PT.

As for Aureal’s defense of Black, I can’t see that coming from s/s either. I think the defense is scummy in of itself because Aureal claims that Black is towny and only posts the defense later. However, I doubt Aureal would be so aggressive about defending Black if they were both scum.

Plus in 198 I would expect s/s Black/Aureal to townread each other more. But Black says that she can’t get much of a read on Aureal, and says that Aureal both pockets and defends her as town and scum. I can see that post coming from town!Black who is concerned about pocketing or scum!Black who wants to keep the option of a town!Aureal lim open.

What makes me scummier than Aureal?

I thought there was a much higher volume of scummy stuff coming from you

[T3]

ok i have a question for everyone here

when you roll scum, on average, how guilty is your conscience

Not at all tbh - I feel more guilty when I make an incorrect push as town lol

[T3]

Spoiler:

i think black is town
i think aureal is town
i think generic/abnegation is town

i think dannflor is scum

i don't always get all of dannflor's pushes and i'm trying to keep that in mind, but 124 feels almost comically exaggerated for such an early read. it feels less like genuine sorting and more like trying to bury black beneath a wall of text that people's eyes will glaze over and think "ok town lol"

if i have to pick things in particular i don't like about it, the vote thing seems really nitpicky - i really doubt timing of votes is alignment indicative in any way. dannflor later says to aureal "I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" but this is literally exactly what he is doing here - black didn't think to vote in the post where she originally scumreads ccg, and because of that she's scum because town would think to vote. and the idea that black pushing back against people who scumread her is scummy - this is a thing which like happens all the time, people push back against pushes on them they don't like. black in particular does it all the time. for an example from a game i finished yesterday, she pushes back on skitter's read here - i'm too lazy to get more but like it's a pattern of behaviour and not one that's exclusive to black. it feels like dannflor here is pushing back on things which are 'scummy' rather than things which are, like, actually scum indicative. also, he says "I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?". i don't think this is a genuine thought from dann - if he disagrees it's scummy he still

knows

people scumread opportunism, and don't like it when they feel like they're being piled on.

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

i also think there are several dannflor posts that just feel... kind of overly convenient for him. like when if black is town scum definitely aren't pushing her! or because of the claims we have to eliminate the person dannflor is pushing or someone who is probably the towniest player in the entire game.

i also think stuff like, black saying she's ok to die is stuff scum do all the time but town also do all the time. dannflor literally just saw me do this as town. like, to be fair, he also pushed it there, but i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"

i don't want to tunnel here but this is my starting point

VOTE: dannflor

pedit: i guess that's interesting. it was the first thing that stood out to me when reading through because like i have never felt any guilt at all when rolling scum ever. i know it's difficult to explain emotions but could you like, idk, elaborate on that guilt?

I really like this post and I think you’re probably correct. You’re exactly right that I just took a little glance at Dannflor’s wall, I thought “yeah, this makes sense” and while I did think that some of his points

were

a bit of a stretch I ultimately agreed with his read so I never bothered to comment on it or actually click all of his posts and follow them up to try to understand the context behind them.

I also didn’t like his IAVH scumread, again, it felt all too convenient. The Black wagon had stalled and instead of doing genuine sorting and scumhunting it seemed to me like Dannflor instead was just going through the motions to make it appear like he’s sorting. His questioning of me wasn’t scummy in of itself but scum can absolutely fake that, and it didn’t seem to me like he was actually using his questioning of me to sort me.

If I am scum, in this gamestate I absolutely want to make uncontroversial lurker scumreads and prevent meaningful discussion from happening, and that’s exactly what it seemed like Dannflor was doing.

NOTE: I had not read meowmeow’s above post before I voted Dannflor. I voted him over the IAVH stuff and then I went back and read pages 14/15 because I had missed them.

[T3]

snip

I guess I'm confused who you think is scum then

because aureal was in your second bottom row

is aureal like your scum pick only if Black flips town?

Yes. I haven’t taken a look at Black and Aureal’s associatives outside of each other.

[T3]

T3 can you answer 342? Why vote Dann here instead of Aureal?

Recency bias tbh

[T3]

actually i guess t3's current position on black isn't super clear? it'd be cool if he explained the vote on dannflor but i think other people already said that. i assumed he kept scumreading black at that point since he wasn't switching his vote

My position on Black is that her earlier stuff was scummy, but her recent posting has been reasonably towny, especially in relation to me.

[T3]

Spoiler: random IAVH meta stuff

Mini Normal 2023 (town) IAVH shitposted a lot early in the game, but made genuine attempts to scumhunt primarily by coming up with strange tinfoil-y theories but also some legitimate scumreads in which you could tell that he was asking himself “why did X person do that?” he read everything hyper-seriously and struggled to understand when other people were joking.

Newbie 2128 (town) is also more of the same. Again, he’s clearly asking himself a lot of questions the entire time. In this game he reacted fairly well to pressure and he expressed strong contempt of the scumreads on him.

MBOS 15 (town) was the exact same as the game previous games. Although in this game IAVH was never actually scumread that much or had a chance to express many reads because he was killed by the mod very quickly.

Soon after going through these three games I realized that IAVH has never actually played a scum game on this site

[T3]

i like many of the points made in her case on dann in 351. the unvote is interesting though — meow definitely still had a case there, it was only that one piece that had been refuted. i think scum might be more inclined to keep voting there, or at least i would be as scum.

Maybe? What would be the town motivation for unvoting?

[T3]

No one is voting you

This seems like a fairly disingenuous way of phrasing things. IAVH wasn't complaining about being voted, he was complaining about being scumread and people calling for him to be voted.

[T3]

455 is pretty towny. I don't have much of a read on Abnegation since replacing in but I don't think I want to lim him today.

[T3]

im not on board for iavh bandwagon

in fact, iavh you should sheep me on dunnstral

Why

[T3]

No one is voting you

This seems like a fairly disingenuous way of phrasing things. IAVH wasn't complaining about being voted, he was complaining about being scumread and people calling for him to be voted.

Which was also not happening in the way they were saying, by the way.

True, but I can see IAVH saying that from a town POV more than I can see Dannflor saying that.

[T3]

i could probably be sold on dunn or iavh, but currently my feeling towards those slots is more like "well, i don't

not

want to vote there."
also quite liking the wagon composition on dann.

Same tbh. I scumread Dannflor more than Dunn or IAVH, but I also think that it's fairly unlikely that Dunn or IAVH will ever town it up and they'll likely have to be limmed at some point. I still want Dannflor gone today though.

[T3]

i could probably be sold on dunn or iavh, but currently my feeling towards those slots is more like "well, i don't

not

want to vote there."
also quite liking the wagon composition on dann.

Same tbh. I scumread Dannflor more than Dunn or IAVH, but I also think that it's fairly unlikely that Dunn or IAVH will ever town it up and they'll likely have to be limmed at some point. I still want Dannflor gone today though.

You said the same thing about Black and we are no longer voting for her. It is so scummy that you keep pushing things like this.

True, I mean the whole "the day won't progress unless Black is eliminated" was mainly because of Generic though, and then Generic was banned

[T3]

I don't have a response to 501, what you're saying there makes sense.

I feel the note at the end of this post very rarely comes from town. Who is this for? Idk needing to preclarify a train of thought comes from scum a lot more of the time in my experience because town already know they have a genuine complex train of thought. Scum are trying to convince everyone that their unique complex train of thought is real.

I've been scumread so many times for having "fake thought processes" or "convenient thought processes" as town. In this case I thought that I might get scumread for voting you and then having an "after-the-fact justification" so I included that note at the end.

[T3]

I don't really get why you're being so charitable to me now when you say you want me limmed today

How am I being charitable???

[T3]

By "charitable" do you mean "engaging with your scumread of me in good faith?"

[T3]

I think it's weird that your response to 501 is to be like "ya that makes sense"

and not like, "well, this is wrong, im town, here is just what i was thinking!"

like idk i expect if you think I'm scum for your initial reaction to be that I'm bullshitting a scum case on you but instead your initial reaction is that my scum case on town!you makes sense?

You can be scum and still have a valid case

[T3]

t3 frozen scum ez gg

I do have an unfortunate habit of ghosting when I get wagoned as both alignments though

[T3]

Before I want to yeet anyone I would like to say this is not biased against anyone

Just remember to claim intent to hammer before actually hammering to allow for claims.

[T3]

Before I want to yeet anyone I would like to say this is not biased against anyone

Just remember to claim intent to hammer before actually hammering to allow for claims.

weird fucking post to make btw

I thought IAVH might forget to declare intent, I think you can excuse me for that.

[T3]

I went through the game again and didn't see anything that really pinged me. He seems to occupy a pretty solidly reasonable position. Could he be scum, sure. I don't have any reason to particularly suspect him at this point so I'm fine worrying about that later.

tbh these are the types of reads that flip scum most often

What about, like, actual scumreads? This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town.

[T3]

VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3

I don't think octuplevoter is a role in the setup.

[T3]

I went through the game again and didn't see anything that really pinged me. He seems to occupy a pretty solidly reasonable position. Could he be scum, sure. I don't have any reason to particularly suspect him at this point so I'm fine worrying about that later.

tbh these are the types of reads that flip scum most often

What about, like, actual scumreads? This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town.

most people's actual scum reads flip town

like empirically if you look at the average person's reads in any given game their null reads are the most likely group of reads to contain scum

Really? I thought that actual lims are more likely to be scum than the EV.

[T3]

This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town

at risk of being tunneled town this sentence feels performative

i think you've been far too charitable to me here

and idk if you actually are thinking this then the game state is fucked up - like who would be mafia?

I still think you're scum, but if we're both town and the gamestate is really this fucked up then I'd say that scum is Aureal/iavh or probably, maybe replace one of the two with Abnegation.

[T3]

Before I want to yeet anyone I would like to say this is not biased against anyone

Just remember to claim intent to hammer before actually hammering to allow for claims.

weird fucking post to make btw

its either a scum post or T3 just thinks iamveryhappy will forget

Can you please explain your read progression on me and Dannflor if possible? I've been going through your ISO and I don't quite understand why you voted Dannflor and me why and when you did.

[T3]

i voted dannflor?

Or sorry, scumread Dannflor, yeah, you didn't vote him.

[T3]

i voted dannflor?

Or sorry, scumread Dannflor, yeah, you didn't vote him.

i based my dann read on the assumption that iavh/dunn/dann had 1 scum in it. i chose Dunnstral mainly because i didn't like his push on iamveryhappy

so it was just POE? And what is your current read on Dannflor?

[T3]

This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town

at risk of being tunneled town this sentence feels performative

Well. That I can actually kinda see. But I largely agreed with your point. I dunno about "most often" but I do agree there's certainly a nice niche in the 'inoffensive and reasonable' read for scum to occupy. I expect it depends on the person whether that's the sort of place they'd likely end up. Maybe T3 doesn't agree with that idea though?

I usually occupy the ‘inoffensive and reasonable’ niche as both town and scum. This game I think my reads have been reasonable but I also don’t think my reads have had much opportunity to be offensive - there are no real utr’s or usr’s.

[T3]

I really wanna yeet someone

Do it

[T3]

ok
*jumps over Dannflor who is cosplaying the cop*
I get the $200

The suspense is killing me

[T3]

455 is pretty towny. I don't have much of a read on Abnegation since replacing in but I don't think I want to lim him today.

weird thing to say when you had Generic as lock town previously

True

[T3]

like i think a lot of the time thunderdoming / being abrasive / not making any apparent allies can be town indicative

but for a certain category of player it is not

Do you think it's scum indicative for him though?

[T3]

UNVOTE:

[T3]

HUH

What are your reads

[T3]

Aureal unvoting at the same time as me is probably a good sign.

VOTE: iavh now for the wagon that was always going to happen whether we liked it or not

[T3]

I'll live

[T3]

Aureal unvoting at the same time as me is probably a good sign.

I assume you mean for your reads, because that 16 minute gap doesn't do anything for me.

Also lol, good thing you remembered not to use a question mark there

[T3]

ehhh, sure.
i kind of just want this day to end and i have a bunch of "meh" people and t3 is one of them so...

intent to hammer t3.

I'm doc

[T3]

D

ie

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

i definitely like yeeting and fading people

o

n another site I played on they just used the word "linch"

People kept messing up so much that the admins had to blacklist both words, you would get an error message if you typed either word

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

c

ool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

Nope, I’m afraid to burst the bubble but that was me attempting sarcasm… through text… like a moron.

Don’t town clear me off the lamest of attempts at humour please.

T

own clear rescinded

o

kay then

VOTE: Black

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

R

easoning for my read: I thought the way that Black said this was weird. Like, why not explain why Generic's solving could be a good or bad sign?

These were my first 6 posts

[T3]

pretty sure that comes from mafia who wants to claim a pr before he dies not an actual pr

how about let’s intent t3 if you think I’m town now and t3 is in your meh pile and you have no other scum reads

is there a world where dann is mafia and noticed what he thought was pr softing and told me to declare intent so he could get confirmation?

VOTE: Dannflor possibly lol

[T3]

I get run up so often as town

In my last 10 town games I've been limmed in 6 of them, run up and forced to claim PR in 2 of them, and vig shot in 2 of them... I have been killed by mafia in exactly 1 VT game I've ever played on this site.

In my last 5 mafia games I've survived to endgame and won in 2 of them, limmed as the last scum member alive in 1, and limmed early-game in 2 of them.

[T3]

I’m good with limming IAVH atp too

[T3]

I don’t see any good IAVH associatives though, and my PoE is huge

[T3]

I don’t see any good IAVH associatives though, and my PoE is huge

what's your PoE

camel, IAVH, Dunn, and Black

[T3]

Abnegation too actually

[T3]

VOTE: IAVH

[T3]

You are voting for Dannflor

now I'm not

[T3]

camel's defense of IAVH is bad

[T3]

i don't think town!dunn is particularly limbaity either

town!dunn is fairly limbaity in my experience

[T3]

intent to hammer