Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[unwnd]

Good news I am town

Bad news I may need a minute to not be tilted about TM

[unwnd]

I think if you shoot Duchess it flips scum

This is not a formatted post, nor something more in line with my style. This is a quickdraw game so I don't mind breaking the mold and just firing off my reads

[unwnd]

As for my reasoning

Very "giving" start in terms of information. Lot of conjecture-based tone. The way I described it to myself is that her sentences were hand-picked. I don't like it at face value because I don't expect town to process their words so carefully, especially not this damn early. Her reads are all pretty safe in a vacuum as well (such as her saying Wheme is faking the whole 'i wanna be shot' deal). That actually remains to be her strongest read I could pick up on if I think about it, which is pretty bare. I might've agreed with it 9 pages ago but Wheme has displayed a bit of individuality besides the whole shoot me shoot me deal by now.

[unwnd]

I think as a secondary shot I'd probably shoot Norfolk. Less detail to this read but he started off with 'don't shoot me I am terrible with reads' and is just giving off a forlorn expression that has overstayed it's welcome. There's a post there too where he pretty much says for verbatim 'well Netflix and Chill are town so they should lead with the gun' like...

Cmon lol. Makes me feel like he's acting, in that sense of wanting to seem useless but townie by effect

[unwnd]

Other takes not developed or I just want to keep to myself. They're two kinda boring shots in my opinion but boring shots can flip red still

[unwnd]

I keep forgetting about The Godfather (yes, syryana I read the setup and listened to you when you talked about The Godfather). I thought he was referring to the nightkill which shouldn’t be him since he’d be the gun bearer, but I understand!

And unwind you read fast!

I admit a lot of it was skim, but this helps me actually because I've trained myself to just skim until something glaring pops out to me

Saves trouble, I don't get people who think a wall needs to be read word for word, just pick out what you like

[unwnd]

I think Norfolk is a good slank shot, I don't think he'd be a clint eastwood with the gun but if he's town at least you would force scum to commit elsewhere, because right now he's just such an easy read to make. Did I hesitate a bit when I read him in that sense? Maybe, but if he's scum he's just gonna keep acting like this anyways

[unwnd]

I mean in any case he’s either nervous scum or nervous town, and I thought it was odd that everyone just kinda landed on obvious nervous scum, so there’s either people looking for an easy push or there are bussers about.

I mean without fully repeating myself

If he's scum then this is just his MO. You can't expect anything else out of him. He's a good shot to where you either start opening up the idea of bussing or he's a townie who becomes worse (no offense) later down the line

If I think about gamestate I'd actually say he makes the best shot reading back my own thoughts lol

[unwnd]

The newbie game we played he sorta just said 'yeah I'll self-vote to resolve myself' after being run up. Energy isn't something he relies upon, maybe that's evident in just his avatar alone. How do you think partners would be treating right now in a hypothetical situation of scum?

[unwnd]

I'm just a big fan of killing slanker slots early. That's what D1 is for, and if I have to somehow influence people back into this mindset then I'll do it

Why do you disagree?

[unwnd]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

[unwnd]

I don't think Norfolk is worth bussing based on his low equity. If I'm scum and my partner is slanking like Norfolk and just..not really posting/being townie, then I let town figure out what they're doing with him and then coordinate around it. I think talking about him fine, I think saying 'we should shoot Norfolk' is also fine. You'll probably see more scum not necessarily bussing but maybe slipping in the thought.

[unwnd]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

If he's town, you get rid of netflix and you get the day cut short handing the gun to someone who's already stated they lack confidence which is a win win for scum. Possibly going into night then shooting someone for less information again. I don't think you're approaching this game genuinely. Like at all at all.

I don't know norfolk's alignment.

I considered the argument but I'm not the one who has the gun. Counterpoint: Norfolk is scum and then Netflix gets to shoot again. I get where you're both coming from though, you give some guy who isn't really playing/paying attention the option to kill someone and then before you know you're down 3 townies.

[unwnd]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

I'm also reading you as not wanting to put in big effort in this setup

Which is fair, the 14 day deadline is overkill too

Actually this offends me, I'm trying much harder this game because it's at a readable pace and I don't have to skim to the point I get fucking bored. My reads feel much more concrete and these past towngames either one or two things have happened

1) I die literally n1 for some reason
2) Wait that's it

[unwnd]

I wasn't under the impression that you had concrete reads though?

I actually feel pretty good about them yeah. At least in reference to D1. Past D1s I felt either tilted/annoyed because I was trying to read things I didn't actually want to. It's a moot point

[unwnd]

I don't like unwnd's posts regarding this at all. We're two days in the start of a two-week deadline with not even 20 pages in. It's super misguided and kinda scummy to be advocating for a shot here right now for slanker shot. We have no idea whether or not norfolk will start actually posting, but based on previous games he should regardless of alignment. If he's scum, we get oh look everyone thought he was scum but no associatives to speak of, and we potentially go right into one of us eating a night kill before any impact can be made, which means we're not too far ahead.

I think what you perceive to be scummy just turns into mutual disagreement. I find myself saying this more often but it does remain to be true. I think some things Norfolk has done is scummy, I pointed out one instance when I was explaining why I advocated his shot. I don't think

everyone

thinks he's scum actually, if I were accounting based on Ctrl+F who-mentioned-norfolk-as-good-shot it'd be like.. 3 people. First: What do I gain as scum to advocate a shot on someone like this so strongly. Secondly: You answered you didn't know how scum would be treating him so. Where does the connection lie with me being scummy/misguided, and does this equate to you believing he's town?

If he's town, you get rid of netflix and you get the day cut short handing the gun to someone who's already stated they lack confidence which is a win win for scum. Possibly going into night then shooting someone for less information again. I don't think you're approaching this game genuinely. Like at all at all.

I don't know norfolk's alignment.

I considered the argument but I'm not the one who has the gun. Counterpoint: Norfolk is scum and then Netflix gets to shoot again. I get where you're both coming from though, you give some guy who isn't really playing/paying attention the option to kill someone and then before you know you're down 3 townies.

I already mentioned the counterpoint because yes, that's awesome if he's scum sort of, I'm not even interested in scum going out this soon because there's a whole lack of a lot of people posting. And I don't think that netflix is going to shoot this soon, so I'm not really concerned about that, I'm concerned that you're advocating it and writing him off as a lurker when the game just started. And it's very squicky coming from you because that's not the approach you've taken in the past couple games we've played together in which you've been quite a bit more conscientious in gaining reads.

This is a different game, I alluded to this when I was talking about my approach. Having a gun in play supersedes the need for a more diplomatic approach. I'm not condemning Norfolk however and saying he's 100% scum, It's more like I want to put the idea out there, then see where it goes. I didn't really have a read on you till now so I would say that's worth something.

[unwnd]

Yeah for now

[unwnd]

unwnd. You say you might have agreed "9 pages ago", but that is roughly when I made that post. The game has indeed progressed since then, as have my thoughts on other players including Whemestar. Have you read the whole game?

If I'm being a little petty I could say that in 9 pages (up until my own post I made) that you had no other read for me to latch onto there would still be a problem. If you had other thoughts, they didn't seem as important as Whemestar, and even now you're asking what I should think about him and if I think he's town. My answer to that regardless is...nullish town. The backend of his content leaves a lot to be desired but there are some takes I've agreed upon. The issue I have with you presently is we both sit here and agree the game has changed, but I do not see you actively pursuing whether or not your Wheme thought is correct. I started this off petty so I'll just continue the trend and say that I dislike when someone says 'oh I have a scumread on someone' then they just ignore them as if you couldn't settle your difference or solidify your stance further on them by like, interacting with them.

[unwnd]

I don't think Cakez is scum and my Cakez read has been pretty accurate for the games we've been in

Maybe this is the game you pocket me Cakez!

[unwnd]

I legitimately just want help finding the town in this rabble and I think you're a very reliable source

I only have about 3 townreads right now, so ask me again later after a bullet has penetrated someone's face

[unwnd]

Do you have a guesstimate at a rough ratio of right games out of total games with Cakez, unwnd? Asking because you said "pretty accurate", not "100%".

I think close to 100% barring slight misdirection? It's not worth getting into a ratio about it, I just think Cakez is a pretty easy to read player from where I'm sitting. Summarize what you dislike about him to me and I'll try to pick through it

[unwnd]

I don't think that everyone believes you're defending Norfolk Imperium

At least, I didn't get that observation. The way I see this argument right now is kinda Cakez insinuating behavior through the lense of 'oh, you're just excusing yourself and in turn this is scummy', meanwhile, you think Cakez is badfaithing you on the notion of not being able to see that you're not trying to make an excuse.

It's a very roundabout argument between the two of you where nobody wins

[unwnd]

I think the post at the top of this page is a decent enough summary for most folks. That said: if I think about it, there's some other stuff that tends to ping me but which aren't things most people are sensitive to. May as well just rewrite it all out for ease of access.

Generally speaking: Saying one thing, then saying a contradictory statement under pressure -- feels less like stating beliefs than trying to evade attention. Making baseless assertions that seem like trying to force an interpretation (e.g. the whole Norfolk scumhunting thing). General gut feeling of the play being phony, i.e. fake, but not so much "simply acting" as it is "crafted for specific effect".

More specific to how I build out reads: Apparent lack of a coherent chain of causation -- I don't see how he gets from point A to point B, it feels like it's abrupt jumps instead of actual changes in thought process. Play is "concentric" -- instead of his play changing focus at any point, it takes a specific point (in this case, "shoot Norfolk") and centers all of his play on that singular point. All play that isn't directly centered on it is pushing back on people questioning it. Hence "concentric", his play reaches ever wider circles of the playerlist but the center point never changes, indeed hasn't changed since page 1.

Because of these things, his play feels agenda-driven: he has a specific goal (shoot Norfolk) and does not attempt to search around outside of that goal. When dealing with things that are not necessarily "shoot Norfolk", his statements are not necessarily logically compatible with one another, and there is no apparent shift in belief or understanding to explain the incompatibilities (since the conclusions he comes to do NOT appear to change alongside the statements).

I'll try to break this down. First things first I think you're far too into Cakez' intention. I know the guy and I know for a fact he does not think this deeply about interactions, scum or town. Does this turn into a bit of a meta argument? Maybe a little, but it is a good starting point. As I continue down your own post it sorta becomes even more inward and you start interpreting actions from your own perspective. Maybe you look at this game like 'I would do this as town, therefore if someone else does it that makes them town too.' I think this way sometimes, but too much and you start seeing things that aren't there. You don't know what Cakez is thinking, so you're just assuming that it has an ulterior motive. Cakez is only focusing on Norfolk. Cakez hasn't changed his thoughts since page 1. Cakez contradicts himself ("logically incompatible") Whatever, whatever.

I wanna ask you a hypothetical: Do you think Cakez' behavior is exclusive? Meaning, that there's nobody else in this game that might be close to doing the same thing? I can tell you that's probably not true and could list examples off my head. The reason I ask this is I just don't find the argument of (Cakez scum) to be all that compelling.

[unwnd]

I hate the term LAMIST. It phonetically sounds out the way I feel about it. Lame.

I'm not in this conversation but at some point saying shit like LAMIST is just a lazily indicating someone's behavior. Give me specifics, not mafia jargon

[unwnd]

I don't know MUSH. The simplest explanation I have for your own thoughts is that you suffer from overthinking.

I couldn't really follow half of the things you said either, so at some point you have to realize what you're saying is in some form incomprehensible. Critical thinking doesn't need to be at the expense of clarity

[unwnd]

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

[unwnd]

I forgot Dunn and NM

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
Dunn
N_M
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

[unwnd]

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

I just went back to Tenet to look at your reads list there, and we're in the exact same place as we were there. lol

If you end up in the middle of my d1 reads that just usually means I need more time to sort you in my head

[unwnd]

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

I just went back to Tenet to look at your reads list there, and we're in the exact same place as we were there. lol

If you end up in the middle of my d1 reads that just usually means I need more time to sort you in my head

I'm just chuckling at the same placement. I don't expect you to read me well.

You've scumpinged and townpinged probably in like two posts now since that readlist

Yeah you could be right, but at some point with a read like that you have to tell yourself 'not enough data' instead of assuming you can pull data out of your ass

[unwnd]

Cakez I feel like the more you convince yourself you're right on Imperium the more it would play into their hand. Like, you're afraid if you're not the one to catch Imperium no one will. I townread you for that amongst other things, but at some point if Imperium is just bigbadscum then other mates would be paying closer attention if they felt Imperium was in trouble, as I'm certain the gun has been waved over their head.

This doesn't absolve anything, but I do think right now they're probably doing other things.

[unwnd]

I find myself doing that whole 'observant sidelining' thing I kinda get annoyed at myself for doing...

[unwnd]

At first I thought you were joking then I saw 162 posts

What's happened old man

[unwnd]

I don't want you to be tilted because I think you're a boon to town

What exactly has you frustrated (if you had to generalize) and do you believe they are intentional from some people? I know you sorta lean on Cakez being someone who might be intentionally tilting you but not sure about the rest

[unwnd]

I think Tammycho is a bad shot and I'd be willing to explain it if you want me to

[unwnd]

I think Tammycho is playing a scumgame it is not one of deepwolfing rather (for Nacho's side) antagonistic trolling

Do I think that's what is going on? I dunno yet, cause there's always a sensible Tammy wall inbetween Nacho shooting the shit. That's one of the reasons I don't want to shoot there but also the Nacho side is practically testing Notty/Brian's faith at this point lol

[unwnd]

It's not my shot but I'd probably kill duchess here

[unwnd]

Lotus would be an interesting shot, the reason I wanted to kill Duchess was actually to resolve my thought on Lotus and the potential of bussing

[unwnd]

RLotus if you get the gun are you just shooting Duchess immediately? That'd be pretty worthless and I'd like to hear your other thoughts as you've made the majority of your content around Duchess being obvscum and I guess Norfolk

[unwnd]

Probably Wheme

[unwnd]

I'm not really seeing a progression from Unwnd here, for example.

Where in any of my posts did it say that I thought he was scum, all I mentioned that is that the shot would be 'interesting'

[unwnd]

There were people egging that shot on.

...Like who?

[unwnd]

I don't even know what that means Dunn, you tried to say 'oh, people were egging on the shot on RLotus' like...okay? Two people by your accord, with one of them who made an idle comment and the other who was basically going through the motions. I just am not a fan of you trying to spin a narrative that people were pressuring Netflix into a shot because that's just not even remotely true

[unwnd]

I definitely see it MUSH, it was such an angled read on two people who just happen to be there at the time Netflix shot his gun off. Let me spin this however, what do you feel is more likely Dunn

1) Two potential scum "egging on" a shot from the gunbearer
2) Scum sitting back and letting town misfire into themselves while playing hero the moment the bullet is fired

[unwnd]

I don't see it as demoralizing, I see it as comeuppance from people who had no right to say anything in the first place. Don't worry Dunn, you're not the only person getting my ire.

[unwnd]

What did I do to get ire?

I'm not plunging the town into chaos,

norfolk really needs to die here, pretty much everyone is scumreadng them or nullreading them,

they might even be the godfather at this point but it's still worth shooting there honestly

Where was your input before RLotus was given the gun? My problem right now does not stem from reacting to the shot, rather the conclusions immediately drawn from them. Even if it's my own perspective, with a greenflip this early on I find myself not going into 'yeah shoot this guy next immediately woot woot just fire em off' I'd consider reeling it back in and determining where we apparently went wrong, yet you're already insistent on saying nonsense like Me+Imperium goading Netflix. I don't really understand where you got this point and you yourself have already agreed that scum probably didn't want anything to do with the shot. So...why are you suddenly so anxious?

[unwnd]

Cakez I don't think it's in Tammycho's cards to continually battle your logic head-on, I think they'd rather handwave you instead of trying to appeal to your own reasoning

So if you want to bury them you should do it more precisely, because right now the back+forth does nothing

[unwnd]

Cakez I don't think it's in Tammycho's cards to continually battle your logic head-on, I think they'd rather handwave you instead of trying to appeal to your own reasoning

So if you want to bury them you should do it more precisely, because right now the back+forth does nothing

scum post

I sure hope it is!

[unwnd]

Cakez I don't think it's in Tammycho's cards to continually battle your logic head-on, I think they'd rather handwave you instead of trying to appeal to your own reasoning

So if you want to bury them you should do it more precisely, because right now the back+forth does nothing

scum post

I sure hope it is!

I think you're sideline sniping and fanning flames. I think you've tried to pocket cakez and earlier were trying to look like you're being diplomatic, but you're not.

I'm pretty sure you're scum here.

I'm the only firefighter around here right now. If I were fanning the flames I'd be saying 'well Cakez, you may have a point after all' but instead I told him to be more concise in the nicest way possible. I get the aggression but I don't want to read it from either of you. If you think it's scum for wanting a bearable gamestate then like I said

I sure hope I am.

[unwnd]

Cakez I don't think it's in Tammycho's cards to continually battle your logic head-on, I think they'd rather handwave you instead of trying to appeal to your own reasoning

So if you want to bury them you should do it more precisely, because right now the back+forth does nothing

scum post

Hey netflix and chill if you're watching remember how you thought mush was fanning the flames?

This is what fanning the flames looks like.

I agree because they also said they agreed with Mush that I was "demoralizing town" and that doesn't really make sense

No I think you're doing exactly what I said. You're giving comeuppance about an event you had no hand in

[unwnd]

Cakez I don't think it's in Tammycho's cards to continually battle your logic head-on, I think they'd rather handwave you instead of trying to appeal to your own reasoning

So if you want to bury them you should do it more precisely, because right now the back+forth does nothing

scum post

I sure hope it is!

I think you're sideline sniping and fanning flames. I think you've tried to pocket cakez and earlier were trying to look like you're being diplomatic, but you're not.

I'm pretty sure you're scum here.

I'm the only firefighter around here right now. If I were fanning the flames I'd be saying 'well Cakez, you may have a point after all' but instead I told him to be more concise in the nicest way possible. I get the aggression but I don't want to read it from either of you. If you think it's scum for wanting a bearable gamestate then like I said

I sure hope I am.

I want to sanity check this.

What made you think this particular wording was /nice/? Because where I'm coming from, I can see what Imperium means -- it's nasty wording, its just not nasty aimed at /Cakez./

z

It seemed pretty nice to me? Maybe not sugarcoated kiss ass nice, but enough to where I told Cakez I was tired of reading it and hopefully he understood lol

[unwnd]

I don't think it's worth much going into my word choice but in my head saying "bury them" veered towards a case format or something along the lines

[unwnd]

Nacho do you still hate me from yesterday? Just curious

[unwnd]

anyone who's here, give me your top shot picks, any number of names, no context

Wheme Dunn Duchess (Rockhopper) Norfolk

[unwnd]

Confidence would be

Duchess > Norfolk > Wheme > Dunn

[unwnd]

anyone who's here, give me your top shot picks, any number of names, no context

Wheme Dunn Duchess (Rockhopper) Norfolk

gonna be honest, struggle to see why a team like this gives notty the gun

I don't like how sensible this is and you're making me doubt myself lol

[unwnd]

My concern is less that STT is pushing mislynches because STT doesn't have enough of a presence at present to do anything but try not to get shot. My concern is that STT is making up reads because his reads on me/Cakez/Norfolk look more like a computer program than someone genuinely trying to figure out the game. I believe this because of him being willing to turn on his top townread as easily as he is (everyone can be wrong so seeing someone be wrong once should kick your top townread to your bottom 4) and because of how clean those reads are.

I'm not sure why his Cakez/Norfolk reads are the ones you focus in on instead of his MUSH read, which is far more elaborated

I'd even go so far to say I agree with some of it (in a vacuum)

[unwnd]

I don't disagree with you that STT's argument about IRL circumstances or MUSH explaining that her time may be limited is any indication of scum. That''s quite underhanded from STT and I'd like him to reconsider at least that aspect of their read. The instances about MUSH's extrapolated reads however rung a bit of truth, and I do see why STT would make those conclusions. I'll give you one thing I don't like about that wall now that I've actually read it and it's that STT seems to be mostly convincing himself in real-time. The wall goes through 'the effort is townie' to 'but the meta is scummy' to 'that reasoning about IRL circumstances justifies the inconsistencies' around to 'OK, OMGUS.'

The problem relies on the fact whether you believe STT thinks it's worthwhile to push someone like MUSH because let me be honest, there's a reason (no offense MUSH) most people do not respond to her walls. Why not pick an easier target instead of engaging yourself with a possible conundrum. This is not the basis of liking STT, rather there's just a lot of headway given.

[unwnd]

Any hesitance or sidelining you see me from me is dictated a bit by the setup and a bit by my varying confidence in my reads. I think the people who I asked to be shot would be great shots, but I know they're probably far. Meaning, I don't think I'm going to see another death soon. This is in some sense a good thing, but also I think gun games more than even regular mafia games rely upon PoE. My PoE hasn't been determined, and my townreads are all there for my own convenience. You could say I townread STT purely on this notion, but looking into your own reasoning and like, actually reading their wall

That might've been a bit short-sighted. Who's left? I think Cakez is townie still. I believe MUSH's conundrum is not fake and if this were her first scum game I don't imagine she'd be able to pick up her tells that easily. It's not as simple as saying 'i am going to wall' because the intent has to be there somewhere and my read on MUSH independently (as in, her as a player) is that she has strong conviction, but struggles with placing it in a format that she is satisfied with. Therefore, she spends a lot of time in tangent mode even if others deem it be unnecessary.

[unwnd]

but unwnd i have to leave soon so i'd like to talk about me and you for a quick second.

1) are you okay? is there any reason you're taking a bit of a backseat in this game or am i misinterpreting that you're taking a backseat here?

2) you didn't really react to us scumreading you. was your expectation that we wouldn't be able to read you or are you scumreading us or...?

1) Explained a bit in my previous post

2) I didn't really think about it. My priority right now is finding a workable PoE, which I guess in explained in my previous post as well. I think Cakez is being dramatic towards you. The only reason I intervened is because I'm innately selfish and I'm not gonna get any further in reading you by you entertaining Cakez. We're getting somewhere now so you might see more of me, but the past 10 pages or so I was started to get a bit annoyed which is why I brought my hose.

[unwnd]

Imperium did mention having seen Cakez act similarly as town before, so they might be writing it off as stubbornness, but I don't see how you can completely alter the very foundation of an argument and keep pushing it without even a pause or an acknowledgment that a different road is being explored. I understand how you can see that as stubborn town, or a personality trait (bullheaded, simply refusing to admit when wrong), but it reads to me as if losing the argument has much more significance in Cakez' mind than simply letting a scumread loose, if you catch my drift. The fact too that Cakez, if I am recalling correctly, reignited the argument several times, leads me to believe he may see it as an inevitable 1v1.

With Imperium? Could you explain this thought further?

Do you guys know what I realized I've been missing my past few games. It's actually talking to people instead of shading them from afar and pretending they're not listening. I have a scumread on you Duchess and I'd like to sort it out. I'm not sure where I started to think being all haughty with my reads was fun or even engaging for others.

[unwnd]

Listen.

I really do think Cakez is town. The argumentative process he gets in with people is at such a slight that I can't imagine he wouldn't at least be self-aware as scum. The lack of care in that department makes me think he's a townie who is just strongly defiant, getting into a back+forth like Imperium because of his beliefs. Even the minor squabble with Duchess/MUSH as well. I struggle to see ulterior motive with pushing the issue so incessantly that Tammycho breaks out

THIS TEXT

and tells him to stop misrepping. I mean, at that point..what have you exactly won? What does Cakez gain as scum to keep pushing and pushing and pushing at this point. The read he has on Imperium feels almost personable at this point. Like it's gone beyond merely 'I scumread you' and more like Cakez wanting to convince Imperium that they're scum lol. A foolhardy choice, but this itself makes me think the intent is pure. Let me get it clear: I don't think Cakez is incapable of faking this or even building a narrative around his own absurdity. I just believe he'd be more precise with it and if it

did

come at the expense of himself (and how others read him), he'd be using that to greater effect. We've seen it before and I've seen a defiant scum cakez, where as scum the issue is not disagreement of (read), rather disagreement of (himself).

[unwnd]

you should know better than to think scum are always going to pick an easy target

Context matters here though, maybe MUSH isn't belting out the hardest logic to break down, but you're still eating through a wall at this point. I can't imagine scum wanna break their teeth in the process. Plenty of lowballing slankers to lazily say they're scum. STT isn't townie for it as I mentioned, and without repeating myself looking at their wall I probably rescind the initial read I had on him, but I digress

[unwnd]

I'm willing to back off Imperium for the moment but I keep getting scum pings from them and I am extremely paranoid about the tactics they have used to approach me

Like I said probably 20? pages ago. Make a concise effort and compile some evidence if you feel

that

strongly. Do you? Is your Imperium read like eating at you or is it just exasperated paranoia that you keep expressing?

[unwnd]

I think cakez/duchess is scum

No we should shoot duchess or cakez or not mafia.

PETA solidified my townlean on rock

Shoot duchess

PETA solidified my townlean on rock

Shoot duchess

you don't think i'm onto anything wrt STT?
because i wanna shoot that hydra real bad.

I don’t really care currently I would rather see duchess shot right now.

duchess stt scum

Amazing insight Wheme, tell me one I haven't heard before.

[unwnd]

Wheme has been my scumread the moment RLotus got the gun. Nobody picked up on the subtext (not even Imperium) when I was talking about how Dunn wasn't the only person to get my ire

[unwnd]

Here are the people I dislike and why I dislike them.

I don't like

Dunnstral

right now. I fear this feeling however because the last game we played I didn't like him either. There was an intricate tell I provided with Dunn for the longest time and I think I forgot it. It seems that somewhere we both got bad at reading each other because we shared mutual scumreads. I have less of a confirmation bias feeling towards Dunn and more like an annoying twitch. That statement made about 'scum wanting to avoid conflict' did have truth to it, but I think that is not the full representation of the game, nor is it relevant. I think this game has been quite scrappy, even if they are just minor events (outside of the blatant obvious ones like Imperium v. Cakez) so for Dunn to say this to me seems like he's giving this game a cursory glance and nothing else. The pop-in from him after RLotus just furthered the agitation, and the only response he had to my complaints was 'well I responded 30 minutes after' as if the time responded matters? You could even say 'avoiding conflict' would be the most apt description of his play right now.

I think I probably dislike

Whemestar

even more. I gave his ISO a look and there was a reason I pointed out that he keeps saying to shoot Duchess. He also says to basically shoot (most convenient read to make at the current juncture based on thread trajectory). No, really. Go ahead and look. Sidenote: I believe Duchess has tried to respond to Wheme about twice now but they both seemed to drop it. hint hint: they're scum together and Wheme is trying to buscred Duchess by holding onto the read while they play coy with another, but you didn't hear it from me. Other complaints? The moment he isn't calling to kill someone else he just leaves these little tidbits of 'oh, if I get the gun imma shoot sooo much scum' like I had to eyeroll when typing this. All flash and zero fucking substance. No logical progression in reads just shouting into the void. Even the questions asked from himself don't seem to follow a useful pattern. He's just saying shit in the moment and then it's like he gets bored and forgets why he did it but shoot duchess. I don't understand why people believe this is townie.

Yeah so

Duchess

is still probably scum in my eyes. A bit below the belt to say 'hey, let's interact' and then ignore them but the engagements Duchess gives just read like wordy advice in conversation. Like, the way they talk to Cakez is such a sit-down moment I felt like I was not seeing two people have a developing conversation rather Duchess spending their time telling Cakez how it is. You can relate this mindset to the rest of their posts, where it all just is subject-oriented. What do I mean by this? It means that Duchess is not treating this game as something to solve, rather to talk about as if they were instructing. I just think Duchess is finding it very difficult to justify their reads, so they talk around them, and add all this needless context. I really don't know where Duchess is coming from and if I had to absolutely gather what they've said like..maybe they dislike Cakez and Wheme still?

[unwnd]

Norfolk

is like. A dwindling read me. I don't like what they're doing but this eeyore syndrome is really getting to me. It probably wouldn't be a great shot right now for that alone, because Imperium did make a point about how people are just oh-so-convinced Norfolk is scum and that perhaps scum were just directing a shot through apathy. That's clearly not Imperium's words but that's how I would represent Norfolk in terms of the rest of the playing field. Someone who started the game apathetic and continues to lead with said apathy. This read is dependent whether you believe this is fake or not, which requires a bit more sensitivity. If he doesn't like being VT or not confident then like is it justified to give him a gun? What I would like to see more out of Norfolk is despite the fact he isn't confident--there should be an attempt. A recent post from memory was him delving into some meta and mostly just self-defense, but at what point do we just decide to make him play the game if he's town. I still have him as a potential slankscum but I also wanna see what leaving him alone further might do.

[unwnd]

I don't wanna talk about my townreads or my nullreads (in detail), because the line between them get constantly blurred. Right now I would put MUSH as #1 and Cakez as #2 townie. I've given my reasons on both throughout this thread and I don't see my position changing on them. Tammycho is creeping up on my list because I'm starting to believe what they're saying. This is not a tonal read, rather the more they explain their thought process..the more I agree with them. Leave it to Tammy to always make really nice formatted posts that I enjoy reading. I also don't mind Nacho's blurbs either and I was never really scumreading them, just a bit cautious about the way they were engaging Cakez whom I've townread for a while now. This is slightly unrelated how Dunn was like 'you're just pocketing Cakez' no no Dunn

I'm

the one being potentially pocketed here. My intent to get them to stop fighting was because I knew that Nacho would not settle until his point was made and Cakez would just continue to dish out newfound evidence over and over and over. Like yeah that's scummy at face value but it's almost townie for Cakez because of what I said before.

Who's left after that? Peta/Rockhopper are still catching up so I'll wait to determine how I feel about them, but the displayed interjections make me favor them at least in the way they're doing it. Doesn't seem like idle commenting rather it's gonna lead to something bigger. Not_Mafia is not really readable and I will not try to. STT borders on Null maybe even a bit lower since reevaulation. I like what STT comes up with but is it just done in a way that...is only necessary? Peta made a point to me how STT going after MUSH should be something that I should advise given that MUSH would be an easy push to make. I do advise this, and if I had to say one thing I could dislike about STT is that their posts all come readily prepared in a way that feels a tiny bit insincere.

[unwnd]

unwnd, STT's play style is Bayesian reasoning and probabilities. It's /going/ to be overprepared and insincere by default, because LessWrong types are trying to run computer programs on Mark 1 Plains Ape hardware as a lifestyle. It's NAI, you can't make any reads off of that. Focus on results more than approach with that sort of player, that will show you what their aim is.

Ah, I hate reading stuff like that. The problem with what you're saying is with a gun game there is no objective evidence, meaning there isn't wagonomics really. Like yeah, we can "vote" but I'm mostly ignoring it and just noting who says to shoot what. Go take some time for yourself MUSH and come back when you're fresh by the way, I don't wanna see you stress about Mafia. I hope your life situation improves and you're a trooper even for sticking it out and posting in here.

[unwnd]

Just realized there's 5 scum and I'm at

RLotus
unwnd
Cakez
MUSH
--
Imperium
Petapan
Not_Mafia
STT
Norfolk
--
Dunn
Duchess
Wheme

I could be wrong about one of my townreads.

Hum

[unwnd]

Not_Mafia as your strongest scumread? Why?

[unwnd]

What do you think of my theory that Cakez feels locked in? Maybe he doesn't see an out at this point, or like I said, feels vulnerable with Imperium left alone. Right now you're looking at what scum would want to do in this situation to their benefit, while I'm looking more at how scum might react to the situation, wittingly or not.

I imagine being locked in is something Cakez would intentionally want to do as scum in this situation. It's not a matter of pursuing a wrong read if you have a Red PM, it's all about how convincing it seems. Maybe even in the sense that you

seem

townie by having that read even if most of the game is just disagreeing with you. A fantastic position to be in, and to play contrarian. This is not Cakez' style though, and while yes this fits into meta, I think it's appropriate.

[unwnd]

No, but I would wonder why you believe that

[unwnd]

Maybe there are no TvT dichotomies atm? Idk, it would make sense for them to do that as well.

You mean like the 1v1s are co-opted by scum and distancing attempts? I agree with some of that, especially if you look at my own reads. I feel like right now my focus is finding townies despite what it seems, because I find it is more beneficial to deter potential bad shots in a game like this, which goes into why I think PoE is so damn important

[unwnd]

my early assumption about norfolk was that he was just the lazy "consensus scum" pick but now i'm seeing a lot of people flot him as scum but not have him at the bottom of their readlists which is always a big warning sign, when a bunch of people are going "yeah he's scummy BUT how about so-and-so..." that tells you there are people who don't really want him shot which is a pretty strong sign just by gamestate that he's scum

I don't disagree with this in hindsight? The only thing that gives me very slight pause is people like Dunn coming in and saying 'norfolk has been called obv scum or even null we should just shoot him'. What's your read on Dunn right now or perhaps other topics of interest such as (STT, Duchess)?

[unwnd]

Yeah I could just have a preemptive read on Dunn, I'd like to consider him a shot sooner, not later however because his ambiguity is just gonna deter the game eventually

[unwnd]

Because I just find it odd how much you're defending me when you usually suspect me if anything

I don't feel this is true?

Xeno 2 I tried to give you a life raft (incorrectly)
Fake Peoples I townread you (correctly)
And then some other games not worth talking about

[unwnd]

5 of you are town and 5 of you are scum

Cakez Tammycho unwnd RLotus MUSH (VACANT)

--Null void--
Peta
STT
N_M
--Null void--

Duchess Dunnstral Whemestar Norfolk (VACANT)

What I'm wokring with right now form a pure PoE standpoint

[unwnd]

I kinda think shooting in the null void would be great in that sense? If I think about it. Killing outside of it just means another spot is vacant if my visual makes sense.

[unwnd]

I don't count RLotus as 5 but he's there cause he has the gun and is town, ftr

Knowing myself I can be wrong about one of my townreads, but shooting into my null allows me to throw some people into the void or mess around with the order

[unwnd]

You spend a lot of time running your mouth but have no reason to do it

[unwnd]

I think you've made a caricature out of my behavior, I have sailor mouth and relent some of my frustration through tacit response all the fucking time

[unwnd]

I laughed but you still remain in my null void

[unwnd]

Hey nacho can you go back to scumreading me getting into a 1v1 hardcore sounds really fun no sarcasm

[unwnd]

Peta are you making a D2 list of that? I like the idea. It feels like you stole it from somewhere but definitely not complaining

[unwnd]

I mean right now at the very simpleton level, I'm not reading Tammycho's push as scummy. This is a very lazy and non-commital read, because I don't think it's outside of Tammycho (especially Nacho side) range to fake conviction in the way they have. This is why I felt like Nacho was aggro-trolling Cakez, because a lot of it just seems a bit like wheedling if I tilt my head.

[unwnd]

You can read this however you want but I'd prefer responsibility after a potential redflip as I am very very prone to hipfire

[unwnd]

Guns make me impatient, I love a quiet and reasonable game but sometimes I'll get a gut instinct and with a gun I don't have to merely convince anyone

My bullet does it for me, so yeah if you give me the gun I am

probably

hipfiring

[unwnd]

That was just entertaining what Netflix was talking about at the time. I try not to look too far into associative but it's always in the back of my mind lol

[unwnd]

Yes but egging on that I prefer Duchess as my wording there implies I'd prefer to shoot Duchess to resolve you

[unwnd]

The problem with Dunn's interruption is that he looked at what me and Imperium were doing, not necessarily what was being said. Him implying that either me or Tammycho wanting you to be shot was again, not even remotely true. That shot form Netflix was of their own volition

[unwnd]

Peta are you making a D2 list of that? I like the idea. It feels like you stole it from somewhere but definitely not complaining

i did steal the idea initially when i used it in FGO, but that was slightly different circumstances. i had the idea to do it again here because there's no formal voting or anything of the like and it'd be better to keep a record of it

i did start one for day 2 and was planning on postign it but obviously things have shifted pretty dramatically

If you're town I have something I wanna do that probably spews your alignment and no it is does not involve shooting you

[unwnd]

Feel I answered sufficiently per my wording there Tammycho

[unwnd]

Cakez
STT
Mush
--

RLotus

Imperium
Wheme
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper

Duchess

Blunt response but

Does this look like a shot I was advocating based on my own posted readslist?

[unwnd]

The problem with Dunn's interruption is that he looked at what me and Imperium were doing, not necessarily what was being said. Him implying that either me or Tammycho wanting you to be shot was again, not even remotely true. That shot form Netflix was of their own volition

But you were encouraging it

No I wasn't, and the more you try to make this a point the more it looks worse for you. I don't know if you wanna agitate me so much I hipfire you

[unwnd]

I have thoughts that I have been keeping to myself in regards to Peta v. Imperium, cause I do find myself mediating conversations more than I should.

[unwnd]

Tammycho are you still gonna drop a readslist eventually?

Peta would you be willing to do the same? Even if you want to tl;dr their wall, I'd like to see your thoughts on everyone (doesn't have to be detailed)

[unwnd]

Why does it bug you? RLotus has been holstering his shot based awaiting your input in that sense. I am reading what you're saying regardless

[unwnd]

Unwnd has asked some strange questions that strike me as lazy. He asked why I had Not_mafia as my top pick for scum after I just explained it in that post he referred to. So I don't think he's reading with enough effort to understand what other players are actually thinking.

No, no. I read it. Your reasoning presented to me just seemed perfunctory, so I asked you directly because raw interaction has it's purpose in-between walls.

[unwnd]

I think even if peta is scum the way you are BoP'ing him will prove less beneficial over time. I'll explain this a bit further in my next post

Sidenote for my own perceived meta though: As scum, I tend to want to lock down people into a decision and isolate townies. I sometimes use a narrative surrounding the gamestate to push bad lims. As town, I am much more wary and wanting others to meet compromise. I talked about it before and I think TENET should be an example of this thought. Divide and conquer, it works in fantastic ways. Town can't turn on your team if they can't reach agreement with themselves.

[unwnd]

was gonna try to throw together a readlist but not really in the mood anymore

Actually this response from peta signifies why I think BoP'ing him is a bad look. He's just going to get more defensive, and in turn even if your read is correct I'm pretty sure peta is at least halfway decent to retain spew if he's getting locked into a 1v1 with a charismatic townie.

[unwnd]

Is it wrong to have empathy? Maybe. Maybe I could be more rigorous and go 'yeah Tammycho, you're absolutely right about Peta. Don't let him get away.' I don't think that however, and instead I want to give peta a chance (and in turn, you) to resolve yourslef before I have to make that costly decision. I'll say one thing about peta's responses and I believe right now they are not

indicative of alignment

. Like, I completely understand where peta is coming from 99.9% of the time. I don't see his response as grimy. It fucking sucks to have a few good towngames then just be forced into BoP because it makes people uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable. I play mafia and I want to be given the same opportunity as everyone else, good or bad. It just feels like right now you're bringing out a case on peta that would belong way way later in the game, maybe with associative in mind.

[unwnd]

I wasn't just kissing your ass Tammy when I said I liked your walls. You have good diction and are understandable. I try to do the same

I really do think however now is not the day to bury peta, and you should let him prove he's townie. Like, that just gives all of us more to work with too. You're forcing him into a 1v1 and now he's just gonna continue to recoil

[unwnd]

I don't agree with your reasoning on why MUSH got a gun. Occam's razor suggests she got one because scum felt she the most susceptible to possibly misfire, which I don't think it's completely dependent on reads

[unwnd]

5 of you are town and 5 of you are scum

Cakez Tammycho

unwnd RLotus MUSH

(VACANT)

--Null void--
Peta
STT
N_M
--Null void--

Duchess

Dunnstral Whemestar Norfolk (VACANT)

What I'm wokring with right now form a pure PoE standpoint

[unwnd]

On flip

Cakez Tammycho unwnd MUSH (VACANT)

--Null Void--
Peta
STT
N_M
Dunn
-Null void--

Wheme Norfolk (VACANT) VACANT)

[unwnd]

I moved Dunn to null void because I still need to read Duchess a bit further. It's good to see though that my reads are possibly on the right track, outside of still having the potential to be wrong about a townread

[unwnd]

look there's a reason i went on this tangent to begin with. it's because i was composing this while i was catching up:

I don't know how entirely true this is (not discrediting peta) because I don't remember N_M being an ubiquitous scumread. I sort of feared Norfolk being Godfather however when I was looking at this since a good chunk of people were saying to shoot him. What's interesting to me however is that you have (Me, RLotus, Cakez, Wheme) all claiming Duchess was a good shot D1. I want to look through how Duchess responded to each individual scumread on them

[unwnd]

Yes I'm pretty sure there's a deepwolf somewhere, and the gun given to you reflects that. I think they also feared clearing ambiguous slots as well

[unwnd]

3/3 on reads so far

Who exactly? I do see your enthusiasm regardless

[unwnd]

- I was pretty adamant on killing Duchess and she was trying to appeal to me instead of trying to read me, exclusively. Bussing can exist in this format, but it's less beneficial because a gun is far more direct than wagonomics
- I've mediated some conversations that I felt could've gone overboard (e.g I care about the health of the gamestate, something I would not give a shit about as scum)
- I have a pretty decent PoE so far, I'd be playing to lose at this rate if I were just tallying scum in the way I have

[unwnd]

I actually thought I'd get the gun too, but that just means you don't respect me and the scumteam does

Or that they didn't respect my hipfiring claims lol

[unwnd]

Doesn't MUSH want Peta dead too? I'm pretty sure she does...

[unwnd]

If you don't believe my words then that's on your conscience, not mine. To me those reasons are completely fine

[unwnd]

Peta is a stronger player than both of us? I think peta is competent but I don't like measuring ability in that way, mostly because it deters from my own reads

I just don't agree with BoP'ing in essence

[unwnd]

I stand by what I said of peta earlier, the reasons you're trudging about are not alignment indicative. I think peta is genuinely annoyed/frustrated at your BoP angle, which even in the event of them being scum will make him less cooperative

[unwnd]

Anyway, I want to squeeze as much content as I can out of this day to ensure a solve, so you have time to try and think of more reasons. I encourage you to do so.

The only reason I would do this is because I greatly prefer you don't waste a shot. I can't really think of anything else however; guilty until proven innocent with you?

[unwnd]

I've read your argument many times and considered it, but the conclusions I reached is that you are set on this ideal of his townplay and holding him accountable for not living up to it. Maybe it's not entirely BoP, but I don't believe in just condemning my immediate scumreads in the fashion you are right now. It could be a completely different person, meaning you could be talking about like Cakez here. I would still want to give them time because again--you're forcing him to relent. I don't know why you keep missing

my

perspective on this matter.

pedit- Is to Tammycho

[unwnd]

unwnd didn't scumread Duchess until nearly the very end of Day 1, partially due to not being here until then.

This is very wrong, I called Duchess scum like the 2nd or 3rd post after I replaced in

[unwnd]

Good news I am town

Bad news I may need a minute to not be tilted about TM

I think if you shoot Duchess it flips scum

This is not a formatted post, nor something more in line with my style. This is a quickdraw game so I don't mind breaking the mold and just firing off my reads

What do you know, it was my 2nd

[unwnd]

before nearly-the-end-of-Day-1.

I don't think that's true still, RLotus got the gun around ~#750-800 post mark, and that was like the 200th something post. Also accounting for actual IRL days, I made that post 48 hours prior to RLotus receiving a gun lol

[unwnd]

The contrasting difference between me and Wheme is that Wheme did nothing with his scumread despite having it, while I gave my reasoning as to why Duchess was scum and even entertained them at face value

[unwnd]

I will be intensely annoyed if I get the gun, so much that I'll hipfire

Last time I talk about that however, just note if that is your decision then expect suboptimal hipfire into my null pool

[unwnd]

I think this is the 2nd time you've mentioned the thing about "even if petapan is scum, your play is bad because it makes him uncooperative". How does this work? I don't understand because you can never trust scum to cooperate with you anyway, it's not like if we are nice to them they give us more chances to win. I don't understand this reasoning from a town perspective.

Well for Peta's sake I am not willing to believe he is dead-to-rights scum, therefore your response to me takes out the exclusivity of the read. It's not that I think Tammycho should be nicer to peta, rather I think that scum get tilted by the same effect as town, and a tilted scum either just dies on his laurels or he goes even more aggro and starts getting trivial. I want to give peta the chance to prove he is not scum, because I do not believe that Tammycho's argument is enough right now.

[unwnd]

Peta could be scum and this could be their huge crowning moment

I'd be happy for them, and I obviously love redflips. However, just like they want to be selfish with their read, I want to be selfish in having a better chance of reading him. We're probably not going to meet compromise and that's fine

[unwnd]

I will be intensely annoyed if I get the gun, so much that I'll hipfire

Last time I talk about that however, just note if that is your decision then expect suboptimal hipfire into my null pool

This isn't like you

So if you're scum, this is subtle manipulation to try to avoid being shot

If you're town: Stop and think. What shot opens the gamestate? What shot is likely to be scum? There's no reason for you to be tilted and shoot wildly.

What isn't like me? Hello? There's a fucking gun in play. I don't have to sit and toil with convincing X amount of people to vote the person I want, I only have to convince myself or the gunbearer. What is even the point with posturing with me

[unwnd]

Kiss my ass both of you

[unwnd]

How is it sabotage? I want to shoot in a null read because PoE matters more in this setup. I also have the agency to do so

I don't care that you scumread me, I just think your approach towards me is annoying

[unwnd]

You're not helping me, you're holding me accountable to what I would do/wouldn't despite me telling you it's hogwash

I'm not a well-oiled machine that only does what you want it to do

[unwnd]

You know what I'd do here if I was scum Dunn? I'd play more to your liking. You wouldn't be having this argument with me because I wouldn't let it happen. I'd try to present my best traits because I am a manipulative fuck and my only goal is to be townread.

[unwnd]

I think you're misunderstanding something here

Are you saying you'd shoot your null reads instead of your scum reads if you got shot at?

Yeah I'd shoot one of them for the sake of the PoE/spite

Gun game brings a different set of rules

[unwnd]

And don't get it twisted, I wouldn't be haphazardly shooting. I've already got it in my head who I want to shoot in my nulls. It might be a hipfire but I'm not putting on a blindfold

[unwnd]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

[unwnd]

Cause I think independently and if your gun is pointed at me, I'd rather die on my feet than on my knees.

[unwnd]

Yeah so this is what I meant
You framed it like it would be a suboptimal spite shot because you don't want mush to shoot you

This is what I'm saying feels out of character for you

From my own interpretation--

You think I'm bluffing and saying all this to not get shot. You think I'm saying or threatening a hipfire to keep MUSH from shooting me. Me just telling you it would be spite is being honest, but you comprehend at least that even if I were spiteful It'd be with consideration. I'll tell one other thing...my reads can change. I want to work on getting that null pile less and less and I would feel more comfortable having the gun once that's sorted out because if I get it then I will be just lining them up like an adrenaline vigilante. If I get shot before that however? I'm gonna take a chance and shoot into my null because it will either 1) Give me more to work with if they somehow flip red 2) Give someone else the gun and I can die a thankless hero

Yes, but I was also saying that if town you should reconsider

I'm not scumreading you as hard as you're interpreting here, I guess

Make this more productive for me. Here are my nulls

You, Peta, STT, N_M

You don't want to see any of these shot? Why?

[unwnd]

I mean if I'm categorizing who I think in my nulls is more or less inclined to flip scum it'd be

N_M -> STT -> You -> Peta

They're still null though because I only consider someone scum confidently, I am not as confident in this pairing therefore I want to take a risk. You could even say N_M/STT border on null-scum.

[unwnd]

I read that from him and felt it was so specific in ways that bordered on a bit convenient. Like, he just happened to engage for (determined reason) that basically resolves itself to (why he wouldn't do that as scum). I also don't really get why he said 'well sorry if this sounds stupid' because I dunno. If you had a plan why call it stupid. I am still however willing to give him a chance. I am still able to think 'well, maybe Peta really believes what's he saying.' You seem to have run your patience out way faster than me though.

Dunn is the fattest null there, reminder that'd be gun to head sorting nulls

[unwnd]

My thoughts are pretty much the same. I've been putting off looking into Duchess because I am mostly locked into my confbias. What I said earlier about Wheme/Duchess trying to distance each other still applies, and the surrounding context behind it is the tepid relationship between the two. I know for a fact if I'm scum and someone is shouting for my death that I am going to do something about it, but instead Duchess just offers biting criticism for Wheme ignoring them and at best a wag of a finger.

[unwnd]

Hmmm. unwnd, have you noticed any patterns of behavior around Wheme? Not around Duchess v Wheme, but Wheme in general. I spotted something yesterday that I've been sitting on until someone brought Wheme back up.

Yes all the bravado he had from D1-D2 is completely gone and has been replaced with submissiveness

[unwnd]

You had one correct read and even then you didn't do anything spectacular with it

[unwnd]

I mean great but the game still moves on and you're sitting on your hands

[unwnd]

Well first off

STT, I did respond to you. At some point you're mincing words and I don't see your personal gain. I have nothing further to speak about this, and for whatever purpose this is oh-so-important to you has honestly failed me. I've talked about peta almost willingly and I've said how I would hesitate killing him. What more do you possibly want? Secondly-- I looked into Duchess a bit more. At some point it seems like her death was already acknowledged by the team, and I found the re-read to be pretty lackluster. What you have right now is scum anticipating a next move, because right now making any further adjustment is just going to give town more to latch onto. Scum are trying to isolate you MUSH into a blind faith shot and I get your [frustration] and insistence.

What does that say though? It says to me I'm probably wrong somewhere and I've been thinking about where that is.

[unwnd]

I hate thinking that way though. Just to further my own talking point. I wanna confbias because it's comfortable and needing to think about shit annoys me. I am capricious in my true nature and the game does not see what goes on in my head. If you want to pick apart my brain however, I will entertain it.

[unwnd]

I think STT would be a great shot

[unwnd]

I am fine with HUB being shot as well by the way

I just don't like lining up my PoE and saying it shoot it in order

Not unless I have the gun

[unwnd]

I really don't know where I'd defend myself frankly, I feel satisfied with my previous answers, if anything I'd like to convince you into a shot I'd prefer

[unwnd]

I think STT is a good shot because he borders in the null void yet he has enough content and opinions (sparingly so) so take make an educated decision if he's just town. If scum however it makes me rethink a few things and I don't like playing in games and thinking I am just 100% right

And let me reiterate that I am not advocating a shot onto STT because I think it will be town, no, I don't say 'shoot a townread to clear them!' that's just poor play. I'm saying to shoot him because I believe his equity as scum has gone up but he is a hard player to case as he'll always rely on his Bayesian nonsense to wriggle out of a situation. I just don't believe he has enough tenacity and is missing a good amount of pro-activity that I associate with town.

[unwnd]

I don't think cakez is scum and I can't parse your argument outside of ' just trust me bro lol'

[unwnd]

Cakez has tunneled Imperium too

I just think him being unreasonable errs towards town behavior that doesn't give a fuck

[unwnd]

Touchdown Tom at it

[unwnd]

again

[unwnd]

I don't want to be shot. I feel anything else I could say beyond this would be pointless. I gave you my reasoning before and I can't really understand why we're here now. I'm just as confused/paranoid as you are when it comes to a gun being waved in front of me.

[unwnd]

In my own perspective, knowing the consequence of a misfire is far more telling than pretending nothing can go wrong. Do you know why Wheme is scum? It's because up until this point-- he acted like there were no consequences. He had no consideration of the gunbearer. It was

performative

. It should be as clear as the nose on your face at this point. What does Wheme have to show for his antics. What did he gain keep saying 'shoot me' 'shoot me' 'shoot me'

Absolutely fucking nothing.

[unwnd]

On flip

Cakez

Tammycho

unwnd MUSH (VACANT)

--Null Void--
Peta
STT
N_M
Dunn
-Null void--

Wheme

Norfolk

(VACANT) VACANT)

[unwnd]

Cakez unwnd MUSH (vacant) (vacant)

---Null void---
Peta
N_M
Dunn
--Null void---

Wheme (vacant) (vacant)

[unwnd]

With scum using up their factional kill and the godfather out of play, this essentially makes the game a normal popcorn game

Gonna look back on a few things

[unwnd]

MUSHSHAGANA

unwnd

Dunnstral
ScrewTheTells

Imperium

Not_Mafia
Rockhopper

Norfolk Boy1

SirCakez
WhemeStar

RLotus

Still thinking one more scum at the very bottom

[unwnd]

look there's a reason i went on this tangent to begin with. it's because i was composing this while i was catching up:



this is, to the best i could manage, a record of who people were calling scum on day 1. i threw this together becausein a game with no votes, data matters, accountability matters, and i want a RECORD of who was calling for who to be shot

that imperium line? not an accident. when i was filling it out i couldn't any sense for WHO they actually scumread, which is part of what disturbed me. seriously. go back and read day 1 and try to tell me who their scumreads were. instead we got posts like this:

That means I don’t have any of the people I could see picking me low enough on it.

Tammy are you still around? Do you think this is a dumb rabbit hole to dig into?

I don't know. It's something I've been trying to figure out myself. I thought that if you were given the gun purposefully, they might have been planning to kill us the first chance they got based on potential overlap.

I didn't give you the gun.

Cakez is I don't know. He's either town who decided I was scum early in RVS, I was just looking back at that, and he's confirm biasing everything I write and missing every point I make and moving goal posts because he's just that confirm biased. People do do that, and some posts do feel somewhat townish, but man I don't know.

Dunnstral doesn't feel like scum to me, but I don't know if I'm writing him off too easily. We were in the anon dance game together, and he replaced into a scum slot and the way he pushed things were just really wrong, so I've been looking for pushes that feel weird and I don't see it. Right now he feels more like he did in xeno and tenet. Not a strong read, but.

Norfolk I'm not sure about. I don't think that the opening posts deserved the push they got, I didn't like yesterday's posts that much and I thought he might have been appeasing Cakez by calling him misguided town, but today's posts felt a little better. I'm going to continue to fence sit here. I know that's really weird for me to do, but that's where I am.

So, yeah I don't know. Numbers wise, there should be scum in there right? But I don't know where to place it right now with any certainty.

of course, now they've settled on a team that includes me and the 4 least productive players in the game, which is pretty ludicrous, but i admit, it's

something

this is also why i asked people for who their shot choices would be when i replaced in - i was going to try to track how people's stances changed and if they were possibly shifting them to encourage rlotus to shoot someone he already suspected but they had previously not mentioned much - i wanted to see if anyone's reads were shifting in an agenda-y way

some of this i was assembling yesteday, if you feel like i got anything wrong point me to the posts


trying to look over duchess's ISO and it looks like they knew they were screwed yesterday, they barely said anything about anyone, but I'll try to scrape it for clues

tbh i think STT's day 2 readlist speaks for itself thank u 4 saving me the trouble

[unwnd]

Norfolk/HUB was already positioned by scum to get bussed or die if peta's list is right. This makes me believe HUB was pretty much trying to stir the spot and nothing else. His team knew he was at death and so was HUB, so it was just spreading hysteria and nothing else

Unfortunately, that makes him less reliable to ISO as well

[unwnd]

Think today you shoot Not_Mafia/Wheme and you flip scum.

I still have the potential to be wrong about a townread, but those two should be resolved before I get there

[unwnd]

although it's probably STT

What had you coming around to this?

I know Imperium is dead but they were so certain you were scum, I feel right now the gun is probably pointed at you too

What are you doing if you get it?

[unwnd]

I feel your head is in the right place or you're stuck with bad partners

And believe me, I want to believe the former. I just can't really see your gameplan here if you were scum unless I'm missing something and Tammycho is going 'oh nooo' in the dead PT

[unwnd]

Wheme tell you what if you're not scum I will believe you ok?

[unwnd]

After some thought I'd be alright with Peta being shot so it isn't wracking my brain

[unwnd]

Hope your situation changes MUSH, don't mind waiting

[unwnd]

Peta/N_M are fine shots

I need to think about a few things still

[unwnd]

MUSH took like 4 days to decide a shot

I see the chaos burning in you

I don't care if it gets me yelled at, go with your heart

[unwnd]

I think that shot rings true

If not then you died like a gangster and I respect you

[unwnd]

If not N_M then Cakez could be fooling me let's see

[unwnd]

I'll only feel salty if cakez is scum I think that's it with me

[unwnd]

Oh wait that wasn't a hipfire

Man I thought you gangstered out

[unwnd]

I believe you but the thread didn't lock so did your gun jam

[unwnd]

I didn't realize you were sniping

[unwnd]

At least cakez was town

GG

[unwnd]

Kinda was hoping he did

My only misfires (even if I didnt have the gun) were on Wheme/N_M

[unwnd]

I had the right reads on Dunn/You (STT) but didn't do enough

I take blame even if I wasn't the one who fired

[unwnd]

Scum did what they needed to

I got too complacent in some areas

[unwnd]

For some reason this game makes me really salty thinking on it

Wheme it's not even your hipfire either, as far as why I scumread you; just thought you were faking wanting the gun at base level

[unwnd]

Oh and MUSH this was definitely definitely not your fault