Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[ThAdmiral]

Confirming. Will read up and post as soon as possible.

[ThAdmiral]

imo, one of the biggest challenges facing a scum player is "fitting in" during the rvs. i think scum may tend to "overcompensate for randomness" in their votes. i.e. they have to try a little harder than everyone else to make their votes look fun and random. not only was the smiley use excessive here, but it was also his

second

vote in the rvs. also, if you'll notice, the joke doesn't even fit right, as consig clearly confirmed in the post lewarcher is responding to. so yeah, its a serious vote. is it a "super serious not gonna ever change my vote no matter what happens" vote? i'll let you figure that one out.

This is actually decent analysis. And lewarcher's sarcastic response to the initial vote is also scummy.

It continues...
Lewarcher tries to play it down, tries to play it casual:

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure, the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

Gonzooo points out something:

Wait, so it's ok for dj to make a non-random vote to get out of the RVS, but mallow should not come and support that vote to further get us out of the RVS? How is that scummy? Seems to me like a wagon with only one person on it isn't much of a wagon. Explain.

Lewarcher responds by backtracking:

you are correct, dj's vote is not right. It is too silly. I was over-generous in my previous post. But I like keeping my vote on mallow better. DJ just gives me the "I'm so smart I see scumtells that other don't heh heh heh" vibe.

I seriously think we've caught scum already.

speaking of lurkers, I am not moving my vote until mallow posts some content.

This is also a classic scum tell, namely constantly justifying one's vote remaining on a player. It is for a really weak reason here as well (with a bit of mudslinging thrown in for good measure).

The only reason I voted lewarcher was to humor Don.

unvote

I hate the rvs.

huh, I honestly didn't see that coming...

And then after he gets an explanation that the vote wasn't serious he doesn't unvote... Why?

@mallowgeno: I did not see that coming, because, even though I am aware that there was no real big case built on the smilies-stuff, I did not read any evidence of humor in your vote. Nor did the others, as far as I see. I would have preferred a post with you insisting on my alleged attempt at overstressing randomness. The fact that you retract this way definitely bothers me.

so my vote stays where it is, for now.

Oh that's why. Another weak reason to keep his vote where it is.
But didn't you say you didn't like his vote initially because you believed he jumped on you supporting a silly argument?

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure, the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

...yeah, you did. I guess mallow would have been dammed in your eyes no matter what he said, hey?
(btw that's 2 examples of back tracking now).

Lewarcher then jumps on the consigliere wagon. Why?

Consigliere only posted noise and did little more than apologise in all his posts. He states he is new, he states he does not know how to handle nvs, and so on... the mistake discussed here is just a little mistake, not at all scummy, but it does not show he is town, and the rest of his activity is disturbing me.

Yeah, but why is he scum? How does his behavior help him if he is scum.
Oh wait, it doesn't at all!

In his next post he flings mud at gonzo for defending consigliere and asks for "more votes on consigliere".
umm, no.
(gonzo is, like, the only only one making sense by the way)

Perhaps we should lynch Consig, and move from there on to (if he is scum) his most obvious scumbuddies should be lynched the following day.

Vote: Consigilare

Ok so we've found one of lewarcher's scum buddies. Moving on.

I have the feeling that gonzoooo is attacking a lot of players at the same time with rather weak arguments.

Unvote; Vote: Gonzoooo

First of all hypocrisy.
Second of all this is another vote that is not accompanied with an explanation of why he feels this behaviour is scummy, or would help the scum. You know why he isn't thinking about that sort of stuff?

Because he is scum

!
Scum only need to make something that sounds reasonable enough to accompany their vote, something lewarcher has done time and time again.

tl;dr lewarcher is scum, werewolf is his scum-partner.

vote: lewarcher

[ThAdmiral]

welcome to the game Admiral

Now that we have a replacement, we might get somewhere.

Thanks for the warm welcome guys, but I don't think you are going to like me in this game, lol!



Also during my reread I found this little exchange quite funny:

I would say DJ, because his vote on lew "for excessive use of smilies" REEEAAALY confuses me. Why would that, in the RVS, be considered scummy?

As for Consig, I would say that he's a confused town.

quick response there, powerox. vote about "smilies" really shouldn't be confusing. especially since i explained it thoroughly. what about it "confuses" you?

[ThAdmiral]

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction.

Do you ever respond to suspicions against you without mudslinging?

[ThAdmiral]

I am not sure what mudslinging means.

I shall explain:
Mudslinging is, essentially, a defence mechanism that people use to dispel an attack by calling the attacker in to question rather than their arguments.

From post 90

I hope you two are not scumbuddies, cause if you are and you are so obvious at page 5, this game would be kinda spoiled.

You imply gonzo is scum here, i.e. you sling mud on his name, so to speak.
Importantly you don't back it up with anything other than that he is defending someone, which is not an inherently scummy action.

From post 160

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction.

Here you imply I am scum. Once again you don't back it up with any solid reasoning, just that I am accusing you of being scum. You don't, for example, consider that any town player could possibly conceive of your actions being suspicious - which is ridiculous.

[ThAdmiral]

and Admiral, if you read post 86, you will find that you pulled my quote out of context

This is your 86:

Consig is town...he just apparently ate a trunk full of psilocybin before this game began. For realz, if you're voting him over voting someone not in this game, then you're ridiculous. Particularly disappointed in you saporovirus.

???
This is quite a strange defense. He ate a trunk full of psilocybin???????
This is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard, seems like a scum buddy is trying to stick up for another.

Vote: Gonzoooo

This makes your consig vote look worse. If gonzo was indeed defending someone

as scum

there are two reasons why he would do this:
a) defending a scum buddy so he would not be lynched
b) defending a town to get town cred
So given that you think gonzo is scum, and therefore that there would be a fair (I won't say 50%) chance that the person he was defending would be town, it

makes even less sense

that you would then move your vote to consig?

Also the fact that you think someone is scum because they are defending someone is also bad logic. Town defend other people all the time.

[ThAdmiral]

thad: if you think they are partners, can we start with werewolf?

I am more sure of lewarcher

[ThAdmiral]

my gut impression was lewarcher as town, werewolf as mafia

Why?

I'm seeing your points on Lew, but in my opinion he still seems more townish to me.

Why?

@ wolf: way to not address the point in my post. Just bolding a bit isn't going to cut it, pal.

[ThAdmiral]

@ Admiral: Did you miss the part where I said I'd post a more substantive post sometime today?

Yes.

Current position: null read. The "English-as-a-second-language" mess is a bunch of white noise that I'm having a

lot

of difficulty screening out. Until I find a way to properly quantify how much influence the language difference should on my reads, I have zero confidence in any conclusions I've reached about lew.

Do you have any idea when this is going to happen?

Also can you explain your vote on mallow again? Especially this line: "My argument for wolf is currently more subjective than my argument for mallow".

[ThAdmiral]

Admiral: A lot of this (the case on Lew) is interesting. I see the whole "constantly justifying his vote" thing, but the rest I'm not sold on.

How is backtracking scummy

? You say he's scummy for not justifying his votes with real evidence that would help scum - how does backtracking help scum?

Let me put it this way: there is also such a thing as a scumslip/scum-tell.
Backtracking is an indication of lying, and lying is something scum do.

[ThAdmiral]

please, Admiral, define scumslip and name one from this game.

Backtracking.

[ThAdmiral]

Thank you for taking me through your thought processes.

unvote,

vote: werewolf

[ThAdmiral]

Hmm, I smell a bus.

What does it smell like? Old people and kids?
Seriously though if he is bussing then werewolf would also be scum.

[ThAdmiral]

I think Zhero's nonsensical voting stinks completely. Why you wouldn't push the person you think is scum and has the bigger wagon is beyond me...unless you're trying hard to stay off the wagon. That's scummy regardless of werewolf's alignment.

True dat.

vote: zhero

[ThAdmiral]

@ zhero: I don't think your explanation for your actions in post 217 adds up.

[ThAdmiral]

Sure, with only 3 days left, I may as well claim now. L-1 is effectively eminent anyway.

I am the Role Cop.

This seems sort of easy to fabricate and kinda out there.

UNVOTE: werewolf

VOTE: Zhero

L1.

What are you on?

unvote, vote: werewolf

[ThAdmiral]

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up. Either it there is at least one scum bussing their partner Zhero, or scum jumped on the wagon of town. At first it didn't seem as bad to me, voting for the lesser wagon, given that werewolf was L-1. However, with the points brought up on the previous page, I'm very strongly believing it to be scum.

I would like you to explain this.

[ThAdmiral]

Maybe that phone is smarter than you think. Perhaps it's trying to say that dj is an sk.
Also "big is useless" unless you know how to us it properly!

[ThAdmiral]

Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.

Who do you think this might have been then?

[ThAdmiral]

Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.

Who do you think this might have been then?

And if you do believe this, why wouldn't you have already started looking through the wagon for who this might have been?

[ThAdmiral]

And I'm still waiting on mallow and chesskid. As I think most of us are.

I'm waiting for smashbro, personally.

[ThAdmiral]

vote: smashbro

I can't help but feel that mallow is a bit of a soft target, and that smash's case on him is to deflect attention away from himself.
I could be wrong, but that's what it feels like to me.

I also don't really get why he is not voting for his suspect on the zhero wagon, namely don, when he seems so sure at least one person on it was scum.

[ThAdmiral]

vote: smashbro

bold tag fail

[ThAdmiral]

@ volkan: another aussie!
I wonder how many of us there are.

[ThAdmiral]

That may be true but mainly suspecting only one person for a large portion of the game is a good scum tactic as it allows you to lay lower and make less enemies.

[ThAdmiral]

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim.

move on

. it shall be done(come on voting block).

You mean no matter what he claims?

[ThAdmiral]

Move on=proceed. Move forward etc. Obviously, how one ""proceeds" depends in the circumstances at hand. Questioning what I said there is lazy.

Why lazy? It was a weird thing to say imo.

I have found scum. Don't feel the need to do much more at this time.

Okay. Interested to see where this goes.

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim.

move on

. it shall be done(come on voting block).

You mean no matter what he claims?

someone defined my arguments against gonzooo "semantics"...

Well the choice of phrase is interesting. To me it implies move on

from that person to someone else

. It seemed he was dismissing him for the lynch when and if he claimed.
"Proceed from there" would have made more sense if that's what he meant.

[ThAdmiral]

imo, what i said is not weird. imo, i find it weird that it is an issue for you. do you propose that we get a claim from smash and "not move on"? exactly how would that work? we all agree to stop playing the game and head over to the queue to sign up for others? you've lost me. the opposite of "move on" is to "not move on". if we don't "move on" the game goes nowhere. much like it is now. please vote smash, or present a case against someone else. or just sit there. and we can "not move on".

Difference of opinion on your phrasing. Read 314 again because I don't think you understand what I am saying there.
But I don't want to dwell on it. Let's "move on", shall we.

how can i be scum picking on an easy target when no one else is voting for mallow? picking an easy target would mean going after someone who could be easily lynched, and given that there is little to no support for mallow, I don't agree with this sentence.

2 things:
1. Mallow is a lurker and presumably won't be putting up much of a fight, hence a good place to park a vote if you don't want to cause a fuss.
2. You just admitted that you moved your votes to consig and werewolf because a vote on them would be "more productive". Another way to spin that is that you were voting for people "who could easily be lynched", hence picking easy targets by your own logic.

That may be true but mainly suspecting only one person for a large portion of the game is a good scum tactic as it allows you to lay lower and make less enemies.

This seems like you're ignoring everything smash said just so you can call him scummy. I don't get why you think he should vote don over mallow if he finds mallow more suspicious. Explain for me cause I'm slow and such.

I don't buy his reasons for being suspicious of mallow, basically. And it doesn't make sense to me that he is apparently so sure someone on the zhero wagon is scum, but is not interested in following that lead.

[ThAdmiral]

@ lew: The main problem I have with your posts right now is that you have narrowed down for the scum who the vig is. Why would you do that?

[ThAdmiral]

--- You first say it is scummy for me to leave my vote on someone who will not create a fuss over it. Then you say it is scummy for me to move my vote to other people. What?

I can see how you would get that impression but that is a slight misrepresentation of what I am saying.
Essentially I am accusing you of trying to fly under the radar. I believe you are doing this by keeping your vote on one person, and voting other people only when they have copped a bit of heat and look like potential lynches.

[ThAdmiral]

@lew: not rolefishing as such. When you say stuff like "the vig is stupid" it's pretty clear you aren't the vig. I think

that

is a bit stupid.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd 367: and you brought this up BECAUSE........???????? If you were town, this is another one of those things that you would have

no reason to say

.

I didn't want anyone else to say "yeah, the vig is clearly an idiot" because that would round down who the vig was even more.

General plea to everyone: lets stop talking about the vig now, shall we?

This I agree with.

[ThAdmiral]

looking back at the block. lew already has a vote on me, and it's obvious that TheAdmiral and Gonzooo also thinks im scummy. Just as votes and ta-da! insta-wagon! just add votes! but on a more serious note, he gets away with a vote on me, saying "he's not sure quite why" and trying to persuade 3 more votes on me. he pretty much wants to say you guys do the work, I'll vote with you.

This part is the more-or-less-convincing case I was referring to.

The only problem I have with this is that it wasn't like dj was doing it in some clandestine, back-alley way. He more or less came out and said just that; i.e. he wanted the people he believed were town to vote in a block and then he would follow.
If he really did believe gonzo and I were going to vote smash why wouldn't he had a) waited for us to do so and then joined the wagon (although this

could

have looked scummy even just an "I agree with this" probably would have gotten by without too much heat), or b) made a case of his own to vote smash. The nonchalant nature doesn't make me think scum. It's a null-read imo.

[ThAdmiral]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

fourth'd for the extension

[ThAdmiral]

I put down some thoughts about the dj case in 379.

[ThAdmiral]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

Are you saying that you asking for an extension makes you town?

That, or that I am scum doing something that I don't like doing as scum.

@don: I think my thoughts on smash are pretty well documented. Implosion I am not sure about at present. I would have to reread him. But gut puts him lower than normal on my town list.

[ThAdmiral]

Also I hate extensions when I am scum, so...

Are you saying that you asking for an extension makes you town?

That, or that I am scum doing something that I don't like doing as scum.

...So, WIFOM.

Yes.

[ThAdmiral]

Lot of good content overnight. Am on my phone now but will post when I get home.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAdmiral - I'd like something a bit more substantial from you about dj than a comment on a single point. Particularly since I assume you've played with him before. DJ is an accomplished player that isn't likely to be caught out by standard scumtells, but I really feel like his play feels off this game.

I've played one game with him before that I can recall, and we were scum in that one. So I wouldn't say I have a good handle on his meta.
I do feel like your reasoning is very wishy-washy in regards to dj though. Do you admit that there could be plenty of reasons why his play might "feel off" to you in this game that may not have anything to do with him being scum?

I'm fairly convinced at this point that we have a 1v1 situation in the competing wagons, given the deadlock we seem to be at for the moment. This is ultimately quite good for the town because it is going to be very telling after the lynch.

I agree. 2 competing wagons in a day is generally the best thing for town. However...

we also need to lynch correctly today, so I want everyone to think long and hard about DJ vs. Smash and pick a side.

Is misleading. You are implying here that one of the two is definitely scum but this is not a foregone conclusion. Please respond to this.

@Thad:

I wonder why thad addressed his criticism to me alone (#345).

ThAd 345: referral to the first lew possible rolefishing without mentioning the last 10 highly relevant posts... wut?

^Thirded, actually. Why only mention lew? (And, yeah, I realize I followed you on this, and failed to officially include DJ when I said "rolefishing." My bad, there).

I wasn't accusing lew of rolefishing, I was accusing him of rounding down for the scum who the vig was by calling the vig stupid.

And why the WIFOM about the extension? Didn't peg you as someone who'd do that.

Yeah. It was a silly throwaway line and I probably should have just not said it.

Finally, why the werewolf vote in #193? Not that I can't deduce one or more reasons from previous posts, but I'd like to hear your specific reason(s)

Lew's response was satisfactory to me. I didn't feel as compelled to vote him any more so I moved to my next scumspect.

what are your feelings about the voting block, and what were your feelings when it was first proposed?

I had never heard of the concept before but I actually liked it. I think it is a bit dangerous though and should only be implemented when the town reads are a bit stronger, as even one scum in the mix can potentially make it an anti-town force. I hadn't planned on complying with it in this game because I believe it has been hard to get good town reads on people.
If the question was more about how did I feel about dj when he suggested it I have to say it struck me as somewhat of a more-likely-town-play. I thought it was sure to cop some heat, which it did, and that is why I feel it would have been a less likely play for scum.

@ThAd

: not that this should need asking but... why the WIFOM?

No real reason. Soz.

[ThAdmiral]

I've played one game with him before that I can recall, and we were scum in that one. So I wouldn't say I have a good handle on his meta.

That was LLL I believe, right? Please look through a few of his recent town games if you get a chance just for a point of reference.

I'll try to have a look if I have time.

Do you admit that there could be plenty of reasons why his play might "feel off" to you in this game that may not have anything to do with him being scum?

I can think of the one I believe you're implying here. Not so sure I'm sold on that angle, but I catch your drift.

I just want to state that I am not implying anything specific here, just that there could be multiple reasons someone is playing a certain way; be that real life issues, the role they have been given, them simply deciding to play a little differently, them reacting to a different situation that they find themself in etc.

You are implying here that one of the two is definitely scum but this is not a foregone conclusion. Please respond to this.

I do feel that one of the two of them is scum. If that were not the case, I don't see why scum wouldn't have piled on one or the other and pushed the lynch through by now. What do you feel is the scum motivation for having two viable wagons on town players and not proceeding to lynch one of them?

Sometimes scum can just be timid. In fact LLL is a great example of this as even in lylo the scumteam (me included) didn't hammer-wagon someone to death even though we have a few chances to do it.
But you raise a good point.

That's the thing. I don't see Dj town. He had been telling me to present a good case on Mallow all day, and didn't seem to believe in it. But once the Werewolf wagon gained votes, he suddenly thinks that it would be good to have two wagons, and goes onto none other than Mallow. He had been vocal about his other reads, but didn't seem to be sold on Mallow. Once someone else joined the Mallow wagon, he joined it too, rather than Werewolf. That's the point. I didn't think that DJ suspected Mallow over Werewolf.

Hmm. This is interesting. I'm going to have to take another look at that.

in the meantime I am less sure of myself.

unvote

[ThAdmiral]

Had a look. Where did dj do what you say he did? I don't see it.

[ThAdmiral]

Still here, but have been busy lately. Will post asap.

[ThAdmiral]

Thoughts on dj: it seems like his meta, if anything, suggests he is more-likely-town in this game. The only thing I haven't been liking is the constant asking for "evidence" and "proof" as if in mafia there is ever any substantial evidence or proof. It is not a court of law where people are innocent until proven guilty, it is more of the opposite actually.

@mykonian: I was "actually improving" at end of page 4... then what? I just became town? I find the way you comment thing very insufficient. This is just a sample. You are voting PO. Still anything I did in the first 3 pages was attacking consig (=PO) and gonzooo, who defended consig (PO). Then what? What happens? Are my attacks scummy, or are they a way of bussing? You think I would bus someone right after RVS? Probably not, since you say I am town, but how? When? Why?
What about vollkan? I do not understand your vote. Then you immediately unvote, but this is far from being ok. You cannot just say: hey, I am reading page x so I am voting A; oh, wait, now after page x+1 I feel more like voting B. What reads can I get from this? null, null and null.

Way to freak out.

@gonzooo&don: I am not answering the question on which vig-statement I find scummier, it would be ridiculous.

Because yours was scummier?

i'm really sorry guys, but I don't have time for this game.

replace out please

Dammit. Was really hoping for a response to my last question to him.
Since he obv won't be able to answer it I will put it to everyone else. Smash said this:

That's the thing. I don't see Dj town. He had been telling me to present a good case on Mallow all day, and didn't seem to believe in it. But once the Werewolf wagon gained votes, he suddenly thinks that it would be good to have two wagons, and goes onto none other than Mallow. He had been vocal about his other reads, but didn't seem to be sold on Mallow. Once someone else joined the Mallow wagon, he joined it too, rather than Werewolf. That's the point. I didn't think that DJ suspected Mallow over Werewolf.

I had a look and didn't see it. Does anybody else think dj did act like this or not?

Willing to vote:
smash/whoever replaces him

Could be convinced to vote:
implosion
dj
lew

Not all that interested in voting:
gonzo
volko
po
myko

[ThAdmiral]

Thad: whats up with PO? do you get myk's case? agree/disagree?

If I'm not mistaken it's mainly that PO played it safe. There could be a case in that but I am not swayed at this point.

[ThAdmiral]

From the player list, the remaining players are:

vollkan (replacing chesskid3 (who replaced Powerrox93))
don_johnson
Purple Orange (replacing Consigliere)
Gonzoooo
ThAdmiral (replacing xenophon)
implosion

Basically we have to lynch or vig right to stay in it (or both obv).
I wouldn't be against a mass claim, popcorn style. I would suggest implosion first.

[ThAdmiral]

Hold on a sec.

If I'm thinking this through right if we claim then there will be 2 roles out and we will be lynching + vigging out of a pool of 4. Since there is 2 scum in that group of 4 it is a 50-50 lynch, based purely on statistics alone, and if we mislynch the vig has a 2/3 chance of hitting scum to let town survive. Also in that situation the jk will have a 2/3 shot of stopping scum from killing, although that is moot if the vig misses.
Those are pretty damn good odds. I think claim and then lynch is the way to go.

[ThAdmiral]

Otherwise the following could happen:
Vig shoots - chooses out of 5. So 2/5 chance. Jk also chooses and has a 2/5 chance of stopping the scum kill but also a 2/5 chance of stopping the vig kill.
If vig misses and jk misses we lose.
If vig hits we live but given that scum have a rolecop there is a high chance they will hit a power role so tomorrow we would be 4 players left with one scum. With 1 claim we would lynch out of a pool of 3 so a 1/3 shot. If the vig survived he would then have a 1/2 shot of hitting scum, if jk survived he would similarly have a 1/2 chance of stopping scum.

[ThAdmiral]

Vig doesn't shoot. Scum probably will kill a power-role in which case tomorrow would be 5 alive, 1 claim, lynch chance of 1-in-4. Mislynch = auto loss.
If scum don't kill a power role we will be 5 alive, 2 claims, lynch of 2/3. Once again though mislynch = auto loss.

[ThAdmiral]

In that last one I forgot that the jk would have a 2/5 chance of blocking the scum kill. But all that would achieve is put us back in the same situation tomorrow...

[ThAdmiral]

I would prefer

Implo
Gonzo
Volkan
Po
Thad
Dj

[ThAdmiral]

But we both agree implo first

[ThAdmiral]

yes. why gonzo second?

I had a reason but I Just realised it was invalid. I'm okay with your order.

[ThAdmiral]

I was backup jk until yesterday when I became full jk.
I targeted gonzo last night as I thought he would be a good target for scum if he was town and a good person to block if he was scum.

Vote Count

No Lynch (1) - vollkan

Not Voting (5) - Purple Orange, ThAdmiral, Gonzoooo, implosion, don_johnson

With 6 alive it is 4 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 29th, PST.

[ThAdmiral]

I think we should all look through the thread to see if there are any people who are left that are very unlikely to be in a scum team together, and also if there are any people left who could likely be a scum team together from their actions.
I don't think rushing at this juncture is a good idea as we are setting ourselves up for potentially our last chances to hit scum.

I'm not sure the confusing "who's the vig" stuff is particularly helpful either.

[ThAdmiral]

If dj agrees with your plan then I'm happy to do it.

[ThAdmiral]

I am down with the plan.

vote: volkan

[ThAdmiral]

One thing I've noticed about Jailkeepers is that they are crazy powerful if only one scum is left. It's kind of like they gain cop abilities if the Mafia continue to night kill.

I think jk's are way more powerful/useful than docs.

The setup may have been broken simply considering that the mafia got the rolecop as early as possible (barring a mislynch on the rolecop, which would be really unlikely) and we never got any use out of it.

I don't think it was broken. Town was really strong and hardly any town were suspicious of other town.
Also you were slightly unlucky dj wasn't forced to claim which would have helped things for you.

As far as the hydras are overpowered argument, I think you'd need to play with more hydras. Some are and some aren't. Both DDD and I are relatively decent players on our own, so perhaps Gonzoooo was.

This.