Mini Normal 2170: Stuff I’m Listening To [Game Over]

[MURDERCAT]

Hi everyone I'm town what about you

VOTE: tsq

[MURDERCAT]

Sorry I meant

yeet: tsq

[MURDERCAT]

Not if yeet is an option I can't

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: panzer

Hey that's my friend

[MURDERCAT]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: murdercat

found scum y'all.

uh oh tsq, they are on to us

[MURDERCAT]

oops meant to send that to the pt

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: blitzo

real vote 34 is weird

[MURDERCAT]

How so?

This looks like fake question to me because the implication was obvious

[MURDERCAT]

Sure, that's what I am answering with my post. I thought the how so seemed fake

[MURDERCAT]

In what way is someone asking you to explain what you find weird fake?

Check my post again, I quoted 34

[MURDERCAT]

No worries, I was being lazy with my quoting

[MURDERCAT]

I read Shea as being very eager to play after waiting a while and I'm into it

[MURDERCAT]

Murdercat gives me gut feelings of scum from the way he dismissed the growing wagon on him

What else would you have preferred I do, the "wagon" on me was because of a joke RVS vote.

[MURDERCAT]

How so?

This looks like fake question to me because the implication was obvious

Don't like this post either.

I don't think blitzos question was "what do you think the implication of me saying this is" but rather "what do you think in that post is weird."

Which seems like a totally reasonable thing for blitzo to wonder about you voting him and saying the post was weird without further explanation.

We didn't really talk about this after you understood what I was saying, do you agree that "How so" looks weird?

[MURDERCAT]

I made a post about what I found weird in their post. TBH the "how so?" doesn't ring weird to me compared to the rest.

Fair enough

[MURDERCAT]

But I’m fully admitting the weak logic, and I’m willing to admit it was probably like 15% driven by wanting shea to trust me
Doesn’t exactly make me scum, no?

Nah this kinda feels weird like you are backpedaling now

[MURDERCAT]

{Thestatusquo}
{Panzerjager, PookyTheMagicalBear, The Bulge}
{Not_Mafia, Noraa, Kasumeat, duppin, OutWorldER, UneducatedGuesser}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Blitzo}

pedit: Was just about to post this for content but ok

[MURDERCAT]

Sorry, that's not going to work.
VOTE: murdercat
Implications mean nothing. Explain.

I did explain, the question looked fake to me. It looks fake to me because the vote had an obvious reason, I had done one thing so far, take my vote off tsq. Maybe I did it because I'm scum and didn't want to be on the wagon.

"Implications mean nothing. Explain."

This line of questioning doesn't follow at all from what you originally asked about. You wanted to know why I thought your post looked weird and I explained it in full. This pressure feels super fake.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm having a hard time taking my wagon seriously simply because the reasoning is either poorly thought out or nonexistent.
If someone could actually break down how I'm acting new or why that matters, that may help things slightly - I don't really see where that's coming from but maybe people are picking up on something I'm not? I just don't get it.

This is such a scummy thing to say, "oh you don't have any real evidence, you can't prove I'm scum!!1!"

[MURDERCAT]

Where you at Blitzo, I'm trying to explain it to you

[MURDERCAT]

I'm still not sure what your original thought is on it or why it isn't worth questioning him on, but it seems like your scumread is based on me not actually wanting to talk to panzer.

Are you curious why The Bulge just voted me instead of asking? It's because the reason for the vote should be obvious in context. So to me it looks like you are asking the question to look busy, not because you are genuinely asking.

I feel like your entire line of thinking is based on something rather vacuous, and I'm still having a really hard time pinning down what you're doing - it's like you're trying to poke holes in something rather than trying to figure things out and it seems suspicious.

This is how I figure things out, I poke and see what comes out

How are people like bulge, panzer, and pooky town already?

I liked how panzer and bulge voted me, it's exactly what I would have done. I agreed with Pooky's logic about gamma. I also feel like you are intentionally overstating the strength of my reads here.

The little I've gleaned off of your Gamma read is also mediocre - you've pointed out that he might have backtracked, which is a thing, but I still don't see why that matters or how that makes him scummy either.

Gamma came in with a gut read and then immediately walked it back under criticism. If it's a real read why give it up so quick under pressure and act like it wasn't even real?

[MURDERCAT]

I fail to see why you're saying things are obvious "in context."

I feel like you are being dense on purpose here? Here are my posts prior to the panzer vote on me

Spoiler: iso

Hi everyone I'm town what about you

VOTE: tsq

Sorry I meant

yeet: tsq

Not if yeet is an option I can't

VOTE: panzer

Hey that's my friend

If you can't see why it's obvious that my tsq unvote as a "wagon" was forming was the cause of votes on me I don't know what to tell you.

A lot of those townleans have said maybe two or three words and I fail to see how that justifies feeling any sort of way about them.

I didn't say you have to believe them but I literally gave my explanation.

It also seems like gut reads are, by their nature, weak and baseless. What makes you think that someone can't drop a gut read under pressure as town?

You can drop a read if you have an actual reason but walking it back just because people start to question you makes it look fake imo. If I said "yeah pooky actually isn't that towny you're right" would you just accept that?

[MURDERCAT]

3 hours with nothing happening

[MURDERCAT]

unless you're hoping for reactions, which judging by the list it doesn't seem you are.

Why do you think that?

[MURDERCAT]

The point is Blitzo I townread people who are thinking like me and I scumread those who aren't (on day 1 at least).

[MURDERCAT]

In regards to point two, your reasoning is still weak.

I never made any claims about the strength of my reads or my reasoning though, which is why things like this feel fake

[MURDERCAT]

I feel like this just invalidates the point of doing anything, ever. My reads are weak, so if people call them weak, that makes them scum.

Point is you are acting like you caught me in some sort of lie to push me when that's not the case

[MURDERCAT]

although I myself did call you out on your list so I guess I'm chasing my own tail here

this is what I was going to point out

That was the goal yes, to see who engaged about it and how genuinely

[MURDERCAT]

Baiting isn't necessarily the term I would use

[MURDERCAT]

@murdercat - what do you think out outworld right now?

I was considering scumlearn based on gut but when I actually looked at the iso there wasn't really that much there. They haven't done much but a lot of people haven't done much yet. I thought 64 was kind of weird but I do like that they are voting you and agreed with me about gamma. I could see it as scum coasting but there's not enough there more me right now compared to you and gamma.

[MURDERCAT]

This isnt super game related or anything but I think this is objectively a bad way to play mafia in general.

How I play 6 pages in is different from how I play 60 pages in though

[MURDERCAT]

It has to do more with the fact that there are better sources of info later on. Early on we don't have much and the logic is that if scum is trying to push something fake it's more likely the case their arguments wouldn't make sense to me.

[MURDERCAT]

See the problem I have with that is it assumes that you are the one who is right.

I guess I can't argue with that, but at least I can be sure my point of view is genuine whereas ~30% of everything else in the game is coming from scum.

And sure town can be irrational but what you have to look at is if the fact that someone is irrational increases the likelihood they are scum. Which I think it does, as scum has motivation to mislead.

[MURDERCAT]

That makes sense to me

But I'm gunna shut up about this because its just OOG theory and not particularly useful.

I do find this useful though for understanding your thought process

[MURDERCAT]

I've gotten minor scum pings from murdercat

I know we talked about this before when you misunderstood me, but I'm surprised to see you'd still vote me now. I know you said it's not a strong read, but I'd be interested to hear your explanation if you don't mind.

[MURDERCAT]

whats your read on Blitzo after your interaction?

I'm happy with my vote there for now, but i feel like often times the weird day 1 player ends up being a miselim pushed by scum, so I am cognizant of that.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm actually leaning town on Blitzo. I agree with the sentiment his early play has been a odd but that's probably also why think it is more likely to come from town

I do feel like this is dangerous. Anyway I'm not convinced so going to continue to pressure. What would make me townread the slot is having some actual reads and doing some actual solving, versus the weird push on me that went nowhere

[MURDERCAT]

Ah I missed that. Still don't like it.

I'm here, ask me about it then

[MURDERCAT]

Why do you TR Panzer for a vote on you at that point? Looks like pure RVS to me.

I don't think it was a pure RVS vote as he had made a vote already. As I already established, I like to do certain things on day 1 to see how people interact with me about them. This is easier than trying to read how two different people interact because I know 1 side of the equation. Early in day 1 I find anything I can use to start content asap and that's exactly what panzer did (I think, of course he hasn't clarified). As I already said, I value finding other players who say or do things I was already thinking.

What logic about Gamma are you even referring to? He doesn't present anything information, rather he just agrees with Shea.

I am referring to 80 93 and 94 which I believe are independent of anything Shea said. As I said, it followed my own line of thought upon reading those posts.

[MURDERCAT]

Blitzo's post 34 is overly defensive to what I perceive as a joke from Kazu(can I call you that?) Overall an interesting slot but they are in my null for the time being.

Murder sheeps Shea's(may I call u that?) opinions a shit ton. Zero evidence to back up reads ... in general. Also buddies shea a bit too. I'm not liking the look of it rn so I SR Murder.

Post 64 - I really like the way OutWorldER thinks. Very logic based and overall beneficial to town if town but very scary if scum. He can go into early town book for now tho. I don't agree completely with his views bc I think we don't have enough to be saying Blitzo is hard to read but the way of thinking is towny imo.

Pooky is hard to read. idk. null here as well as I understand this is their normal play style.
I still dk what BoP is soooo can I get some SE help around here in unfamiliar territory?

Gamma got into a bit of hot water but meh seems like typical gamma play here. I don't see anything funky so gammas a null for now.

Bulge putting pressure on Murder I approve of. Also Bulge gets +Noraa biased points bc they modded the first game that I won on site. Into my town book u go.

Post 121 - no pooky I won't be claiming 3p this game lmao.

Kazu's entrance are +++townpoints. reads very town imo.

Not mafia and Pooky are in the same "Noraa isn't capable of reading" category

Duppins posts are giving me such strong town pings, I'm worried he's scum. in the slight scum reads he goes.

Guesser's entrance could be townie in pointing out the absence of spam from me or scum setting me up to be limbait. Imma go with the first option for now.

Shea is .... meh null.

I really don't like this post. Null on Blitzo with no discussion of what people are seeing there. SR on me but for a reason that makes no sense. Outworld read is a bunch of words that mean nothing. "Very logic based" ??? Pooky null is fine. Gamma null is questionable. Bulge hasn't really pressured me? Kazu townread has no substance behind it. NM null is fine but still waiting for anything of substance. Duppin reasoning makes no sense, still no substance. Guesser read has no substance and doesn't make sense. Not having a read on Shea is really weird at this point considering his activity. This post is a whole lot of looking busy.

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: noraa

I actually dislike that entrance enough to do this considering there is no one else on Blitzo atm anyway and there is at least some content there.

Sorry for immediately invalidating the VC

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: noraa

I actually dislike that entrance enough to do this considering there is no one else on Blitzo atm anyway and there is at least some content there.

Sorry for immediately invalidating the VC

oooo interesting. expand

Did you miss my last post?

[MURDERCAT]

@Murder
in other words, ur vote felt like OMGUS

Your reads have no substance, so add some

[MURDERCAT]

When pushed on my reads I've given straight answers, why isn't Noraa?

[MURDERCAT]

I'm SRing you for getting defensive instead of explaining your reads

[MURDERCAT]

It has to do more with the fact that there are better sources of info later on. Early on we don't have much and the logic is that if scum is trying to push something fake it's more likely the case their arguments wouldn't make sense to me.

I think I understand what you’re saying, essentially when the information available is low it’s more likely for scum to think differently to town?

I think it's always more likely, but later on I like looking at associations and votes. But I need flips for that

[MURDERCAT]

I "got defensive" after ur vote lel. u got the order wrong. U did some OMGUS and after that I got a wee bit "defensive" as you say so ur now using that to justify ur original OMGUSy vote

My vote was to pressure you and it's working

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: noraa

I actually dislike that entrance enough to do this considering there is no one else on Blitzo atm anyway and there is at least some content there.

Sorry for immediately invalidating the VC

What’s wrong with it? And why is voting after a VC a bad thing wtf? That seems a mite self-conscious.

Is my post immediately before this one invisible or something?

[MURDERCAT]

Blitzo's post 34 is overly defensive to what I perceive as a joke from Kazu(can I call you that?) Overall an interesting slot but they are in my null for the time being.

Murder sheeps Shea's(may I call u that?) opinions a shit ton. Zero evidence to back up reads ... in general. Also buddies shea a bit too. I'm not liking the look of it rn so I SR Murder.

Post 64 - I really like the way OutWorldER thinks. Very logic based and overall beneficial to town if town but very scary if scum. He can go into early town book for now tho. I don't agree completely with his views bc I think we don't have enough to be saying Blitzo is hard to read but the way of thinking is towny imo.

Pooky is hard to read. idk. null here as well as I understand this is their normal play style.
I still dk what BoP is soooo can I get some SE help around here in unfamiliar territory?

Gamma got into a bit of hot water but meh seems like typical gamma play here. I don't see anything funky so gammas a null for now.

Bulge putting pressure on Murder I approve of. Also Bulge gets +Noraa biased points bc they modded the first game that I won on site. Into my town book u go.

Post 121 - no pooky I won't be claiming 3p this game lmao.

Kazu's entrance are +++townpoints. reads very town imo.

Not mafia and Pooky are in the same "Noraa isn't capable of reading" category

Duppins posts are giving me such strong town pings, I'm worried he's scum. in the slight scum reads he goes.

Guesser's entrance could be townie in pointing out the absence of spam from me or scum setting me up to be limbait. Imma go with the first option for now.

Shea is .... meh null.

I really don't like this post. Null on Blitzo with no discussion of what people are seeing there. SR on me but for a reason that makes no sense. Outworld read is a bunch of words that mean nothing. "Very logic based" ??? Pooky null is fine. Gamma null is questionable. Bulge hasn't really pressured me? Kazu townread has no substance behind it. NM null is fine but still waiting for anything of substance. Duppin reasoning makes no sense, still no substance. Guesser read has no substance and doesn't make sense. Not having a read on Shea is really weird at this point considering his activity. This post is a whole lot of looking busy.

[MURDERCAT]

Murder means to say "her reads don't match up with mine therefore they are scummy"

I'm actually getting frustrated

[MURDERCAT]

Honestly I think your own analysis of that post is pretty flat. You have like the same two things you say about her reads, “makes no sense” or “no substance”. It’s still early and Noraa is a newbie, maybe try engaging with her first rather than jumping to the attack?

This is literally what I tried to do

[MURDERCAT]

This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

You don't think that gamma vote is opportunistic?

[MURDERCAT]

This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

You don't think that gamma vote is opportunistic?

no not really and technically almost every single vote can be considered opportunistic if u think about it hard enough.

I was asking Shea but this still makes no sense

[MURDERCAT]

Maybe but Shea specifically commented about you, that's why I asked

[MURDERCAT]

Moving my vote from someone with no votes to someone else to no votes is opportunistic?

[MURDERCAT]

Moving my vote from someone with no votes to someone else to no votes is opportunistic?

I mean that's not exactly what's happening here.

Were you going to say anything else or..

Because that is a factual description of events, so if there is some important context you think matters please share with the class

[MURDERCAT]

Moving my vote from someone with no votes to someone else to no votes is opportunistic?

I didn’t mean that as criticism of you

Even if not, it's still unclear what you mean by it

[MURDERCAT]

Its opportunistic cuz the old wagon u were on died a long time ago. So it just looks like scum!murder looking for a new mislim target

I think other targets would make more sense especially if I'm legitimately worried about be elimed as scum but ok sure

[MURDERCAT]

I didn’t particularly see anything wrong with Noraa’s reads, but if I did it wouldn’t be a stretch to vote there for it, Noraa hasn’t exactly responded well to pressure so even if I did or did not press her first I don’t imagine anything would have made it not feasible to vote her

Ohh you are saying that if you were being opportunistic you'd have voted Noraa? I disagree because there is a wagon on me, but I think I understand what you are saying now at least

[MURDERCAT]

Ok but why would scum make a fake read in early day 1? Do you think you are getting shitpushed here?

Aren't all scum reads fake? (Assuming 1 scum team)

[MURDERCAT]

any push at any stage that scum makes is fake, no?

See this is what I'm talking about when I say I like finding people who think like me

[MURDERCAT]

You respect shea so you want him to trust you this game? I'm confused why.

this is a really good question that I want an answer to. Generally the reason I try to get players to trust me is I'm trying to lie to them.

This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

hello everyone please put these two posts next to each other and try to explain how they're possibly coming from town

This is a bad post, there is a lot from gamma between those two posts

[MURDERCAT]

Going into page 8, I dislike murdercat, outworld, and pooky in that order. I'll try to read more b4 worlds.

Particularly interested in pooky read

[MURDERCAT]

Going into page 12. All scum are caught. Gg ez. I think imma not bother reading the last 4 pages. Go next.

Also, I'm assuming this is NAI based on meta but if someone could confirm that for me?

[MURDERCAT]

Actually I was curious if it leans town for you

[MURDERCAT]

Also why would you say you are cool voting Bulge

By the way Pooky I think you misread

[MURDERCAT]

Its opportunistic cuz the old wagon u were on died a long time ago. So it just looks like scum!murder looking for a new mislim target

This is just bonkers.

Lol thank you Shea

[MURDERCAT]

Also I wish "refusing to be useful" weren't N_Ms shtick but I'm pretty sure it is though I haven't played mafia with them in forever.

Can someone who has played with them more confirm for me that this is just normal behavior for them?

In the latest game I played with NM he lol hammered town as town on day one, it felt very familiar to what I was used to in 2016. He was more active though.

[MURDERCAT]

To be fair that townie had self voted

[MURDERCAT]

I just don't understand how blitzo can simultaneously know what OMGUS but not understand an RVS vote?

I actually agree with Blitzo here if I understand correctly? I think the point is we are n pages is in, why do you still have an RVS vote Pooky?

[MURDERCAT]

I just don't understand how blitzo can simultaneously know what OMGUS but not understand an RVS vote?

I actually agree with Blitzo here if I understand correctly? I think the point is we are n pages is in, why do you still have an RVS vote Pooky?

I have been trying a more logical solve based approach to the game rather than a pressuring attack based approach because I find people are easier to read when they do not feel attacked.

Does this rely on other people doing the attacking for you or do you feel it's not necessary on the whole?

[MURDERCAT]

Fair enough, I will continue to add chaos for your benefit

[MURDERCAT]

UNVOTE:

Noraa vote is obviously going nowhere, going to reread the game and post thoughts tomorrow morning

[MURDERCAT]

MC has completely disappeared and I don't like that either.

I am reading, waiting to post until I reread

[MURDERCAT]

Ok I felt I had to reread because I didn’t feel like I had a good understanding of the game state. I also wanted to read some games from various people.

Thestatusquo
Shea to me is likely town here. I played a game with Shea once before when he was town and he replaced out due to frustration, very similar to what I see in 486. Posts like 39 and 135 feel genuine to me, from what I read scum Shea seemed to be more sure of himself and more aggressive. I did read through a couple town games that gave me pause though as it’s possible has tone has just shifted over time and I’m just conf biased.

Panzerjager
Panzer doesn’t have a lot of content to look through in this game, but I’m going to try my best. At the risk of sounding OMGUSy, I don’t like Panzer’s vote on me. There’s no real reason given other than e.g. “read lists are scummy” (355). Yes I realized that I was ok with the vote when it first happened, but it feels now as if the vote is being justified after the fact in a possible miselim attempt. Panzer has been very vague in the description about outworld/duppin/me and it reads to me like he is keeping his options open about where to move to in the future.

Gamma Emerald
Honestly, despite my push on Gamma I don’t really see why he would make posts like 77 and 79. Gamma has had a lot of posts like 271 that really don’t make sense to me, which is why I felt like pushing there, but at the same time Gamma hasn’t really made any strong pushes in any one direction. Could be scum waiting, but I feel like scum probably at least tries to look a little busier. For whatever reason, the vote on me feels different from the vote by Panzer. It felt like Gamma tried to interact with me before coming to vote on me. The vote off of me probably also doesn’t make sense as scum.

Blitzo
To be honest, I don’t really understand the push that Shea made onto Blitzo about the RVS thing. I do think that Blitzo’s criticism (110) of my Gamma read makes sense in retrospect. I like this quote “you've pointed out that he might have backtracked, which is a thing, but I still don't see why that matters or how that makes him scummy either.” I also like that Blitzo tried to engage with me in 134 even after scum reading me.

Ok next on the list is NM, which requires a decent amount of meta reading, so I will continue in the morning.

[MURDERCAT]

I feel like theres buddying going on, especially with gamma and bulge and to a lesser extent murdercat.

That feel when you aren't Shea's full buddy

[MURDERCAT]

I was actually speculating whether some players were simply townreading you due to being excited to play with you again

I personally don't think this is the case for me, I genuinely an town reading him

[MURDERCAT]

i think my read on him might have been affected by him calling me out yet not pushing me, in fact it felt to me like he was trying to avoid getting in a discussion and being non confrontational. As in it felt like he was just asking relatively simple questions but not really trying to follow up on them, but after reading his iso i see thats not totally fair

Do you think that leans scum for Shea? Based on the couple of games that I read that did not seem to be scum Shea's playstyle. (Generic statement about those games being old.)

[MURDERCAT]

Not_Mafia
Ok I spent a while just now reading NM games and it made me lean scum on him. I realize there is a perception that NM can’t be read (especially not off 5 posts) but we do have to sort him eventually. The reason I’m scumleaning him is that his posting style looks more checked out than average and from the games I looked at he seemed to be more engaged as town (even that engagement came in the form of dumb troll posts). I realize no one is going to follow me on this read unless people want a policy elim, but I’m putting it out there anyway.

Kasumeat
I hadn’t yet formed strong opinions about Kasu, so I think this will be particularly helpful for me. The blitzo vote in 32 and follow up in 103 don’t ping me, because I thought 34 was weird as well. Kasu is very noncommittal on reads early e.g. 155 and 176 but I feel like 182 is genuine. Though I think that vote is bad, it really doesn’t make sense to me to go after Shea there as scum. Same with 345. Anyway, there is nothing in there that really says scum to me, so I’m going with town.

PookyTheMagicalBear
Meta was useless for Pooky I think. Maybe there is a tendency to vote less as scum, but I don’t really know. Honestly don’t feel great about 223. I’m not sure I really looked that much better than Blitzo there and it would make sense for at least one scum to side with me. I feel like 253 is kind of similarly weird to me. Yes, I realized that I also pushed those players, but it is consistent with my playstyle of pushing lots of random stuff on day 1. But pooky apparently takes a game solving approach without putting people on edge. So why these weird pushes on Gamma that don’t really feel like they have a clear purpose? Obviously I do agree with Pooky about 352. I disagree about 404, I don’t think this game is moving quickly enough to warrant a wait and see approach. Agree with Shea about 514, but I could see 528 being genuine. So I’m not really sure where that leaves me on Pooky, but I am going to assume he is a strong scum player so I am going to trust the things that are pinging me rather than the things that look towny.

The Bulge
I liked my interactions with The Bulge around 116, 117, and 119. They feel like questions that are actually designed to gain insight, especially paired with the unvote. I don’t agree with the read on Kasu, but it also doesn’t feel like a scum push. Also, I think the dynamic around the wagons on myself and Kasu are interesting, it doesn’t feel like there is a strong push in any one direction, more like there are two wagons on townies and scum is waiting to see where the other shoe drops. I think I was asked this at one point, I agreed with 335 and as I said before I think that a townie is more likely to follow my same line of thought than scum. I said something very similar to 473 as town, I know that was a topic of discussion. The goal was to get someone who might be town to engage with me in a productive way rather than in a defensive way. Still reads like town to me.

More tomorrow

[MURDERCAT]

Thestatusquo
Panzerjager
Gamma Emerald
MURDERCAT
Blitzo
Not_Mafia
Kasumeat
PookyTheMagicalBear
The Bulge
duppin
OutWorldER*
Noraa
UneducatedGuesser

zzz

[MURDERCAT]

I have him as straight up null rn.

I'm trying to commit myself one way or the other on everyone right now which I hope will help me clarify things

[MURDERCAT]

also I made an analysis after two games with Pooky (dumb yes but w/e) that he tends to be more serious as scum than as town, and he's never attempted to contradict me on that. I will however say maybe I oversimplified it when first forming that impression. He's silly as both alignments, but when he's town it seems like it's downright inscrutable and rather distracting, but as scum he does it in a way that feels less invasive. So if you struggle with reading Pooky, there's a bit of a road map on him.

Thank you I will consider this, though probably I will wait before digging back in

[MURDERCAT]

Hey kasu, wanna chat? Where are you at?

[MURDERCAT]

People are actually here so let's try to advance the game state. Who is mostly likely to be scum if people who are generally town read? Which lurkers if any are scum?

[MURDERCAT]

I think there is a decent chance my vote will land on panzer when I finish my reread. We only have a few days left though, we do have to converge at some point (hopefully not on me )

[MURDERCAT]

@MC

I spent a ton of time on this:

---

No one else click!!! For MC only!!

Spoiler:

Did we just become best friends

[MURDERCAT]

Are you trying to counter-pocket me by pocketing me first?!

You know what they say, it takes two to townblock

Actually I'm not sure about you but I thought that was funny

[MURDERCAT]

This post is a lot of words that say absolutely nothing. This doesn't really help solve Pooky at all, nor does he even express an opinion on what this makes Pooky. There has been a passivity to his play this game which is just so totally unlike the last time I played with Gamma where we ended up in a big town v town clownfiesta. And no I'm not just talking about the lack of content (meaning not posting a lot) I was mentioning earlier, but rather there isn't any real digging, it's almost all just distanced observations.

This is a direct reply to my post about Pooky, I don't see anything wrong with it

[MURDERCAT]

My post? It talked about how I didn't get very much out of Pooky meta reading

[MURDERCAT]

My post? It talked about how I didn't get very much out of Pooky meta reading

No, Gamma's.

I'm not sure I understand the question, I don't think gammas post was designed to solve Pooky, I think it was to communicate with me about my read

[MURDERCAT]

I am having a hard time understanding how those words are an a legitimate attempt to communicate anything useful. That said, I don't mean to give the impression that I think it's the scummiest post ever. Just another one of the many posts he's making that fit his general pattern of just chiming in with not-very-insightful observations and not attempting to do any scumhunting.

I disagree about both the posts usefulness and the intentions behind the post, but I understand why you would think that gamma isn't game solving and see how that post connects to that thought

[MURDERCAT]

Panzerjager
Panzer doesn’t have a lot of content to look through in this game, but I’m going to try my best. At the risk of sounding OMGUSy, I don’t like Panzer’s vote on me. There’s no real reason given other than e.g. “read lists are scummy” (355). Yes I realized that I was ok with the vote when it first happened, but it feels now as if the vote is being justified after the fact in a possible miselim attempt. Panzer has been very vague in the description about outworld/duppin/me and it reads to me like he is keeping his options open about where to move to in the future.

In the interest of actually creating some content, do either of you think this has any merit?

[MURDERCAT]

fuck it im ready to hunt scum with you kasu

lets do this shit

I don't think I saw trolling when I reviewed your meta actually >.>

are you bad here?

Top 10 anime betrayals

[MURDERCAT]

@Pooky This actually does ping me a bit, it was an obvious joke. Unless you saying you wanted to scum hunt with him wasn't actually because of a town read. The first Kasu game I clicked on had kasu self vote in rvs so I don't think that series of posts was that out of the norm

[MURDERCAT]

@Pooky This actually does ping me a bit, it was an obvious joke. Unless you saying you wanted to scum hunt with him wasn't actually because of a town read. The first Kasu game I clicked on had kasu self vote in rvs so I don't think that series of posts was that out of the norm

It seems a lot like an attempt to pocket me, actually.

If our reads are so different maybe it's just nothing then, idk

[MURDERCAT]

oh sweet summer child

I guess the implication here is that you were just joking which I get, but idk still seemed a little weird to me. It was probably just paranoia though

[MURDERCAT]

I still just wanna elim that guy

Why's that NM?

[MURDERCAT]

Noraa how about you attempt to contribute to the game by explaining your scum read on me?

[MURDERCAT]

I don't buy this at all. I'm not sure if that makes you scum but I can't really imagine how you would genuinely meta someone without both town and scum games.

[MURDERCAT]

To be honest I got frustrated at you and stopped responding, could you please point me towards anything you'd like to be answered?

[MURDERCAT]

Hello?

[MURDERCAT]

I mean ur SR on me was "annoying" too. Im sorry if u were seriously annoyed but that's not a valid excuse. I might go fetch those quote for u but u get +townpoints if u do it urself. aint that hard. ISO and then ctrl f Murder

No not seriously I just disagree with you. I did look and didn't see anything direct that seemed like you wanted a response from me, more comments on things I had said. The one thing was the "backtrack" comment that I think is explained by the fact that I am still in the process of rereading the game and other people addressed that.

I do remember you complaining that my reads weren't substantive, now that I have given 8/12 reads that I feel are both genuine and decently well explained how do you feel?

[MURDERCAT]

To be honest I don't really mind if you SR or tunnel me, I have confidence in my ability to convince everyone I'm town and not get miselimed today.

People will say tunneling is bad, but it isn't bad if you are right. I usually wait to tunnel until I actually have a strong read. If that's the case, so be it we can reevaluate on day 2. If that's not the case though I encourage you to continue to evaluate other possibilities.

pedit: like who?

[MURDERCAT]

Vote there? What about it? Does that opinion affect your opinion of NM?

[MURDERCAT]

How do you feel about him then Pooky? I actually agree with you, though I'm not confident in my ability to read him day 1.

[MURDERCAT]

He's in his normal range. It's easier to see what he is when you hammer test him.

As in, give him a chance to hammer? Well I guess we should all vote outworld

[MURDERCAT]

And yet, this is what happened in my last game with him

VOTE: Dong

Its l-1, nm needs to unvote so i can vote myself

UNVOTE: Dong

It was nice knowing you.

VOTE: Dong
Take it away.

VOTE: Dongempire

They were both town by the way.

[MURDERCAT]

Like honestly I don't understand this post on a fundamental level. If you're trying to yeet the scum and you say your reason to unvote someone is that others have been scummier why do you not vote anyone? "I want to yeet people more than you so unvote don't vote any of those people." is just nonsensical. It looks like noraa is trying to get off a vote that wasn't picking up steam and is waiting to see who does pick up steam in order to place that vote.

I might be reading too much into this but I actually think I hate it more than almost anything else thats happened in the game.

I agree with you but also lots of things Noraa does confuse me, this is why I unvoted am waiting to metaread.

[MURDERCAT]

I want to dig more there but he's slightly absent from the thread

Is this in reference to me or Outworld?

[MURDERCAT]

I realize I have been slightly less active than usual but I do have the most posts.

[MURDERCAT]

Not mafia has to be the least fun person to play with on the entire site. :/

I understand why you feel this way, but for what it's worth I disagree and don't support a policy

[MURDERCAT]

ur telling me that activity determines whether or not they are scum?

Noraa this is why we think you look scummy, this is clearly a misrepresentation of the point

[MURDERCAT]

Now everyone starts voting Noraa, guess I'm a trend setter.

I am still going to resist my urge to scum read Nora for everything she says until I read meta though

[MURDERCAT]

see the thing is, when you naturally attack someone, it's usually "this person is scum because ______"

You are tying the vote to my behavior - not to my alignment. You are not saying the vote is good because I am likely to be a bad guy, you are saying the vote is good because I have failed to meet some arbitrary standard of behavior you think I should've.

So when I flip town you can just say, well he wasn't really contributing anyway so it was a good wagon.

ping ping ping

[MURDERCAT]

I know I am still working on my reread but I'm ok with my vote sitting here for now based on that last post that pinged me

VOTE: Pooky

That was one of Pooky's most substantial posts all game and it was super defensive. It also comes with what seems like somewhat of an assumption that outworld is scum but I haven't seen anything in Pooky's iso that suggests there is a scum read there.

[MURDERCAT]

@MC

lol where did I say Outworld is scum? I'm asking him to commit to his read and clarify whether this is a Policy vote or an Alignment vote because its important for the conversation we will have about this.

I feel like there is an implication when you discuss how outworld would react when you "flip town." I don't think it was intentional

[MURDERCAT]

@MC

You think town wouldn't react that way after pushing a ML?

I'm not sure I understand this question

[MURDERCAT]

I feel like there is an implication when you discuss how outworld would react when you "flip town."

You imply this reaction = Outworld is scum right?

I'm saying town would react the same way after a ML no?

In the future yes, but it seems as if you argue that outworld is currently conscious of which way you would flip, which requires scum.

[MURDERCAT]

The above two sheep votes are garbage. I hate it. stop. Murders was the better one but I dislike them both either way. Jumping on a likely wagon to go thru on pooky cuz pooky plays weird is not ok.

It's like you only read every third word of each post and then try to piece it together from there. I have a real reason to vote Pooky, it's not because he plays "weird." I don't even see what is that weird about his play.

[MURDERCAT]

@MC

That's not what I am saying at all.

His case is currently based on actions I have committed and playstyle. It is not based on his perception of my alignment.

I'm aware, that's why I clarified that I didn't think it was intentional. But to me it seemed inconsistent with something a town player would say to someone who is not a scum read.

[MURDERCAT]

I didn't even call u scum yet over this.

You called my post bad and then misrepped it though

[MURDERCAT]

Pooky has had no real pressure all game and has not really done a lot of solving. He gets some votes and all of a sudden he is giving a lot more. Why don't you like them then? Will you give us more if we all vote you?

[MURDERCAT]

Pooky has had no real pressure all game and has not really done a lot of solving. He gets some votes and all of a sudden he is giving a lot more. Why don't you like them then? Will you give us more if we all vote you?

Yes I tend to interact with people who vote me because it's a very good way to read whether they actually believe their case on me.

Yes I agree with you. So even you like the votes. Why does panzer dislike them then? They are advancing the game

[MURDERCAT]

Would you like to go over your vote with me now? Blitzo is not here and Outworld is sleeping ^^

I'd be happy to

[MURDERCAT]

I feel like I explained it both in my read list and in the explanation of why your post pinged me

[MURDERCAT]

PookyTheMagicalBear
Meta was useless for Pooky I think. Maybe there is a tendency to vote less as scum, but I don’t really know. Honestly don’t feel great about 223. I’m not sure I really looked that much better than Blitzo there and it would make sense for at least one scum to side with me. I feel like 253 is kind of similarly weird to me. Yes, I realized that I also pushed those players, but it is consistent with my playstyle of pushing lots of random stuff on day 1. But pooky apparently takes a game solving approach without putting people on edge. So why these weird pushes on Gamma that don’t really feel like they have a clear purpose? Obviously I do agree with Pooky about 352. I disagree about 404, I don’t think this game is moving quickly enough to warrant a wait and see approach. Agree with Shea about 514, but I could see 528 being genuine. So I’m not really sure where that leaves me on Pooky, but I am going to assume he is a strong scum player so I am going to trust the things that are pinging me rather than the things that look towny.

[MURDERCAT]

I know I am still working on my reread but I'm ok with my vote sitting here for now based on that last post that pinged me

VOTE: Pooky

That was one of Pooky's most substantial posts all game and it was super defensive. It also comes with what seems like somewhat of an assumption that outworld is scum but I haven't seen anything in Pooky's iso that suggests there is a scum read there.

[MURDERCAT]

Ah I see you want me to question you. Tbh I think I respect you as a player enough that I'm not going to use a push on you to try to sort you the way I did with blitzo and Noraa, I don't expect you to scum slip under pressure.

Why don't you tell me two people you think are never scum together and why?

[MURDERCAT]

That's not true, I am saying I probably over respect Pooky

[MURDERCAT]

I have things that make me think you might be scum and things that make me think you might be town. For some players that would lead to a town read (if I thought they were unaware of how they were coming off, Noraa may fall into this category). I don't think that's the case with you, so I am scum leaning you. Obviously you are aware that I am not trying to eliminate you right now, it is a pressure vote. I still want more info before I'd commit to an elim on you. However the dynamics of a wagon on you will be particularly informative I think. So that's why I'm not really pushing you despite my vote. In terms of things you can do to look town, more stuff like that Kasu/Shea post will be helpful. I need to finish my reread and then look for associations before I am confident enough to decide where I want to elim today.

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: Pooky

Haven't really liked anything from you all game. My top TRs don't like you and a lot of my SRs do.

ok buddy good talk

This is kind of hypocritical after your last post

[MURDERCAT]

I mean he asked for scum reads and you gave a joke answer? Like sure that one post didn't have a lot in it, but you were asked a direct question and chose not to engage.

[MURDERCAT]

I think we should be looking closely at that vote ^

[MURDERCAT]

ghosted nice

I love this game sometimes :3

lots of fun

try to talk with someone and they just spew nonsense at you

Honestly Pooky I don't see your reaction coming from town at what, E-3? Everyone who voted you (including Shea) has had a consistent complaint about your lack of game solving. Why don't you give us something to work with? Why is the burden on us to prove you are scum at the present moment when we are not even close to a hammer?

[MURDERCAT]

apologise had a busy day yesterday so didnt have time for ms

anyway im actually starting to feel better about Gamma, i also quite like the direction he is pushing.
i cant comment too much on this due to site rules, but i really dislike noraas weird defense of lurking and i think it is more
i am also not a fan of her defense of pooky, it feels rather awkward to me. She is saying the votes on pooky are bad because it's bad to vote on pooky for playing weird? I'm honestly not sure i really understand her defense, to me it comes across as buddying which makes me lean slightly more town on pooky at the moment.

VOTE: Noraa

Duppin, were you caught up as of this post? It seems like there are about 300 posts you didn't respond to before it, but then you went back to quoting some older posts so just curious

[MURDERCAT]

I figured as much, just making sure

[MURDERCAT]

Shea how do feel about Panzer/Pooky being 2/3 scum?

[MURDERCAT]

Also, I know I still need to read up on Noraa (plan on doing that tonight), but based on wagon dynamics alone it feels like Noraa is the town counterwagon to Pooky scum (which is why I was suspicious of Duppin vote)

[MURDERCAT]

Still feel like the Panzer vote that is on me from page 1 and hasn't changed should be pinging more people

[MURDERCAT]

Except Noraa was first to be voted, and then the Pooky wagon happened.

I am aware of this, but the way Duppin voted makes me think that if scum team is Pooky/Panzer/Duppin (which is something I've considered even prior to the vote basically because I realized that I have no real memory of anything Duppin has done) it is the beginning of a counter wagon. I'm calling it out now so that if I'm right Pooky and Panzer have a hard time moving votes there.

And yes, I was pushing Noraa and I thought her post was bad so I'm not going to tunnel on this line, but I just think it is a reasonable possibility that should be explicitly discussed.

It sounds like you don't want to talk about Duppin's vote more and that is fine.

[MURDERCAT]

@MCat and if you're wrong and I'm right, you're hurting town ability to catch scum. Why does the way duppin voted bother you?

I guess that is always true, I have to trust my reads though or what else do I have?

It just pinged me because I felt like it came out of nowhere with no comments on the last 300 posts and I don't remember duppin saying anything about Noraa before

[MURDERCAT]

Why are you against Pooky so much?

[MURDERCAT]

I don't understand why anyone is calling duppins vote random or out of the blue.

Really? Because from a quick skim this seems like all the lead up to it

Spoiler: duppin iso

The logic is that duppin normally doesn't strike me as that towny but here he's seeming so towny I'm worried he's faking it.

What I am more interested in is what you thought were so townie about my posts?

The tone struck me as very very towny. Idk its just the moment I saw that, my gut just screamed TOWNNNNNNNNNNN but that's never happened with ur posts before so I'm kinda weirded out about it as well.

i see, thats a really weird read not entirely sure what to make of that

while i dont like nooras read on me i just dont understand why a scum would push a "so townie he is scum" read

if she had voted on me i would definitely townlean on her, but she didnt though so could be a fake read

I have multiple SRs. Am I supposed to vote them all?

i am not saying youre scum for not voting on me, i am just saying if you had voted on me i would be more inclined to believe in the paranoia read. right now I am not entirely sure what to make of it though, i think no matter what it is a weird read for someone to make as scum though

apologise had a busy day yesterday so didnt have time for ms

anyway im actually starting to feel better about Gamma, i also quite like the direction he is pushing.
i cant comment too much on this due to site rules, but i really dislike noraas weird defense of lurking and i think it is more
i am also not a fan of her defense of pooky, it feels rather awkward to me. She is saying the votes on pooky are bad because it's bad to vote on pooky for playing weird? I'm honestly not sure i really understand her defense, to me it comes across as buddying which makes me lean slightly more town on pooky at the moment.

VOTE: Noraa

[MURDERCAT]

Could be legit, but I don't think my possible reality where Noraa is a townie being pushed by scum duppin to save scum pooky is that absurd either.

[MURDERCAT]

@MCat Because it rose up in response to the Noraa wagon and my meta on him tells me everything (or close to everything) he's being pushed for isn't scum indicative for him. I think Panzer is also perceiving Pooky like I did the first time I played with town!Pooky, which kinda makes me feel better about both of them. It's not enough to erase Panzer's dodging of my questioning earlier from my mind though, so I'd be okay voting there.

Ok this is helpful thank you. I am willing to accept that there is a decent chance one of Pooky/Noraa is scum and I could be on the wrong side

[MURDERCAT]

I dont think any of the SRs on me are good atm.

No one ever thinks that

[MURDERCAT]

Except I'm the one who started pushing noraa, and I did it before people voted pooky. If anything pooky is the counter wagon to noraa not the other way around.

Well I'd like to point out that I tried and no one jumped on, probably because I was scum lean for a lot of people. But if the elim happens in Pooky Noraa I think that we are probably above random to hit scum, so I'm happy to have both wagons around for now.

pedit: FWIW I think the Noraa wagon is townled, I'm worried about it becoming a bigger wagon if Pooky is scum as an attempt to distract and I am worried that started with duppin.

[MURDERCAT]

Like, fypov, either pooky is scum or not, and you're always town, so those are literally the only possibilities as you would see it.

Like, fypov, either pooky is scum or not, and you're always town, so those are literally the only possibilities as you would see it.

is this a scum slip? idk why anyone would know my alignment besides scum

[MURDERCAT]

i find it really funny that everything that happens anywhere on this thread seems to indicate Pooky = Scum for Murdercat

It's actually wild.

For example:

Pooky responds to Outworld -> MC : "Overdefensiveness = Pooky-Scum"

Pooky joke responds to Kasu -> MC: "Pooky joking to Kasu = Pooky-Scum"

Pooky asking people for reasons with he's scum -> MC: "Why do we have to prove why you're scum huh!?"

Duppin votes Noraa -> MC "Duppin-Scum is voting Noraa to save Pooky-Scum!"


It's wild how you claim you're doing this for "pressure" for me to "produce" but you seem determined to bend everything going on into Pooky = bad.

This really isn't where I am at. What I am saying about the duppin vote is all hypothetical upon you being scum, it is not informing a read on you.

I tunnel when I feel I have caught scum, I am not currently in that mode. I am going to point out things that I think make you look scummy though. I already explained in my read of you what things I think looked townie and I already explained that if you want to convince me you are town you will have to do it through actual game solving.

[MURDERCAT]

Shea how do feel about Panzer/Pooky being 2/3 scum?

In fact he's so sure I'm going to flip red he's already started looking for my scumbuddies ! :3


I wonder what the motivation is there for someone who won't even come after me directly :>

If you want to keep throwing shade on me that's fine, I already explained what I want to see from you.

[MURDERCAT]

How are you not tunneling me?

You're tunneling me so hard that you've managed to take things that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME and twist them to fit a Pooky-Scum narrative it's downright ridiculous at this point

If I were tunneling you in an attempt to elim you I would be actively encouraging my town reads to come vote you and you can check any of my games to see that's the case.

[MURDERCAT]

how are you not encouraging people to vote me by twisting everything that goes on in this game as indicative of Pooky scum?

Look this is just flooding the thread with a whole lot of nothing, I'm not gunna fling shit with you. I am telling you what my perception of my own mental state is, if you disagree that's fine. Find scum and I'll unvote you. Or maybe I'll read Noraa iso and unvote you. In the meantime, I'm going to continue to point out things that ping me and I'm not going to apologize for that.

[MURDERCAT]

This would be true if you were town tunneling, but would it be if you were scum? I find that kind of dubious.

I am probably much less likely to do it as scum, I could probably find an example though. Self meta is wifomy though, so I'll let you look for it if you want to.

[MURDERCAT]

Oh I'm the one flooding the thread with shit flinging now?

Fine, I will not continue to fling shit with you

[MURDERCAT]

I don't think you have good intentions. This does not fit with your previously stated position of Pooky-vote being for pressure. I think you're trying to elim me on a bad faith push with shit persuasion thrown in.

I accept your opinion. From my perspective you are either scum or I'm conf biased. Either way, I maintain that I am not trying to elim you right now and if you were at E-1 I would unvote because then I would be more concerned about people jumping on you. Maybe I am being noncommittal because I am scum as Shea suggested, but the truth is I am just not committed yet. I'm not sure what I would be trying to gain by trying to convince someone I have a scum read on that I am town? What do you want to try to accomplish through this conversation?

[MURDERCAT]

Also I think it's kind of wild that you claim your vote on me is because I'm not scumhunting and attacking enough but the second I actually attack someone for being scum for doing scummy things you just run away and refuse to respond to me.

Well how do I respond if it's me you are scum reading?

[MURDERCAT]

If you scum-read somebody and attack that person do you not expect them to respond to you?

Like are we even playing the same game?

I can't objectively assess your scum hunting in the same way if it's on me, it's a completely different situation. I do think your push on me is telling, but it's hard not to scum read you for it when from my perspective everything that I am saying makes perfect sense

[MURDERCAT]

2) You are town and you are absolutely sure of Pooky being scum and thus you are looking for possible scumbuddies.

Now according to you (2) is not the case because you're not actually eliming me - you're just giving me pressure to find the bad guys and game-solve.

There is somewhere between these two extremes where I think you might be scum and am hypoing off it (and conf biasing, if you do end up being town).

[MURDERCAT]

If you think my push on you is wrong then defend yourself and point out what's wrong with my line of thought.

How does it make sense to begin hypothesizing about Pooky-Scum-Partners if you aren't even sure that Pooky is scum?

This is what I'm saying though, I don't think it's wrong, it feels like it's from a scum perspective. If that's true then I can never say anything to convince you. I have tried to point out places where what you are saying is in contrast with my own thoughts, but I'm genuinely not sure what I can provide other than that.

I'm hypoing about your partners because I was already scum leaning panzer and was already considering duppin scum and was worried about Noraa being a town counter wagon. So when things happened that support those thoughts I already had I pointed them out.

[MURDERCAT]

The "I'm just putting pressure on you bro" defense holds a lot more weight when we have 10 days of deadline left, a lot less when we have 3 days and you're on the main wagon. Do you have scum reads? If yes, why aren't you trying to eliminate them? If no why not? Is pooky your number one scum read? If so why wouldn't you be trying to eliminate him? If not, why aren't you digging in other places?

If the vote is for pressure what have you seen? There's a lot of interaction pooky has done the last 5 pages and if it hasn't cemented your read I don't know what will.

Basically I'm having a hard time seeing how your behavior and stated motivation right now aligns with a town mindset of what I would be expecting town to do right now.

3 days is a lot of time IMO. To be clear I am scum reading Pooky and Panzer, but if there was an opportunity to hammer I wouldn't be hammering and I'm not trying to convince anyone to join the wagon. I think your meta read is probably accurate about me being noncommital, I won't fight it. The truth is that I don't have that gut I'm sure I'm on scum feeling yet. I am not digging in other places because I still have 4 rereads to do.

I am scum reading Pooky more as a result of his reaction to me, but I want to come back to it with a clear head.

I don't blame you for questioning me. It wasn't my intention to get into a 1v1 with Pooky, but if that's where we have to go from here so be it.

[MURDERCAT]

Wait how can it be simultaneously right and also from a scum perspective?

It's wrong in an absolute sense I guess, but it's wrong intentionally. It's different from being mistaken.

[MURDERCAT]

I'd note you're not just trying to convince pooky that pooky is wrong you should be trying to convince me pooky is wrong.

That's fair, that's why I am engaging with you about your questions. If there is something specific you want to see me respond to that you feel I haven't explained please point it out

[MURDERCAT]

MC's evasiveness is heavily scum-indicative

Oh come on we are like half of the last 3 pages. What have I not responded to that you would like me to?

[MURDERCAT]

I am scum reading Pooky more as a result of his reaction to me

This is a lie. You were attacking me plenty before I woke up today and responded.

I think you read this with the wrong tone. Your push on me makes me think you are more likely to be scum.

[MURDERCAT]

It wasn't my intention to get into a 1v1 with Pooky

yea ofc you didn't want to 1v1 me, you just wanted to do the shady inevitable push while hiding behind the "Pooky isn't gamesolving excuse" and slowly herd votes onto me by taking cheap potshots from some dark corner.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is what I'm talking about when I am referring to shit flinging, I don't think this is a genuine attempt to advance the game.

[MURDERCAT]

that implies near certainty

I think this is up to other people to decide. I am saying that it doesn't, I had a possible solve in mind and saw things that seemed to align with it and called it out. You claim that that couldn't be the case, I must be trying to cover up an inconsistency. That's fine, everyone else can pick a side, there is no point in saying the same thing over and over again.

[MURDERCAT]

Do you think my characterization of your actions is inaccurate? Explain how.

See my last post. Let's consolidate to one thread.

[MURDERCAT]

Ok let's do this.

What about my push makes you think I'm scum.


Let's say Pooky-town wakes up, logs on and sees MC twisting everything in the thread to fit a Pooky=Scum narrative while maintaining that he doesn't actually want a Pooky-elim and he's just doing things to pressure Pooky into doing some scum-hunting.

What do you think Pooky-town does in this scenario?

This is the thread I'd like to consolidate on, this feels productive. I think Pooky town may reasonably scum read me for it. However, I feel as if I hedged my statements as I made them, to show that I wasn't proposing a rock solid solve. To you that means they aren't genuine, but I feel Pooky town at least tries to see things from my point of view.

[MURDERCAT]

Speaking of which, I guess I will make the first move here and VOTE: Panzer. I recall a few people expressing suspicion here, iand t's one of MCat's SRs so it works as a lateral move for him.

I would be ok moving here

[MURDERCAT]

also this post is pretty questionable no matter what your alignment is, not in the sense that it is scummy but more so that it your association reads are very simplistic and also just the fact that you are trying to look a full team based on hardly any information. If you are town then i need you to relax a little with the tunneling - pooky could be scum but one step at a time please

I don't feel I proposed it in a way that suggested I was confident that I was right and refused to reevaluate. I am not convinced this is the case.

[MURDERCAT]

Please explain to me why noraa is town.

Is this to me? I am not convinced of this so I won't do it. I still need to read her iso.

[MURDERCAT]

No I'm saying you are twisting everything happening in the thread to fit your Pooky-scum narrative.

That is not a natural mindset.

I don't feel like I am doing this. Maybe I actually am, but I feel like I am open to other possibilities. But, considering I had an a priori opinion about a possible solve and things seemed to line up with it, I thought it was worth pointing out. You say it looks like pot shots and I am trying to subtly get others on to you instead of just saying to vote you. But to me that is a natural consequence of the fact that I am not confident of where I'm at in the game. That's why I did all the rereads in the first place.

[MURDERCAT]

How have you managed to do all of this legwork on pooky but you haven't even looked into the other wagon enough to have an opinion? Especially because you voted her at one point?

I am rereading isos according to the playerlist order 4 at a time.

[MURDERCAT]

You're willing to express vague support for a panzer wagon but not willing to talk at all about the other main wagon and you say you haven't put any effort into it?

I'm happy to talk about it. If you want me to proxy my vote to you or unvote for now to make you feel more comfortable we can do that as I still think you are town. But I personally believe Pooky is more likely to be scum than Noraa based primarily on Pooky's play.

[MURDERCAT]

How have you managed to do all of this legwork on pooky but you haven't even looked into the other wagon enough to have an opinion? Especially because you voted her at one point?

I am rereading isos according to the playerlist order 4 at a time.

And you've done panzers already?

Panzerjager
Panzer doesn’t have a lot of content to look through in this game, but I’m going to try my best. At the risk of sounding OMGUSy, I don’t like Panzer’s vote on me. There’s no real reason given other than e.g. “read lists are scummy” (355). Yes I realized that I was ok with the vote when it first happened, but it feels now as if the vote is being justified after the fact in a possible miselim attempt. Panzer has been very vague in the description about outworld/duppin/me and it reads to me like he is keeping his options open about where to move to in the future.

[MURDERCAT]

At the risk of maybe tunneling here I don't understand why a town player would ever make this offer.

It is mostly tongue in cheek

[MURDERCAT]

I'm not going to respond about my word choice, but I feel I have to clarify again that I do not want a him or me vote, I'm not trying to convince everyone to elim Pooky, and my comment was tongue in cheek because it feels like Shea is mostly concerned that I'm not voting Noraa.

[MURDERCAT]

why would you be not trying to convince everyone to elim me if you believe me to be scum?

Once again, I am not ready to commit to that, I don't have the gut read to be sure enough and I still have more reading planned.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm concerned that you are, as far as I can tell, not even remotely interested in discovering if Noraa is town or scum.

To be fair to me, it's been less than 24 since your Noraa vote and I think I already said I am planning on finishing rereads and meta tonight.

[MURDERCAT]

ok because you keep claiming you aren't trying to elim me but all your actions in thread seem to be focused on eliming me.

I'm thinking you want the outcome without the responsibility.

If you have read my games you know I like to tunnel hard when I think I have scum. I'm either not doing that because I am unsure or because I'm scum. But I think it is definitely fair to say that I am not tunneling you the way I do when I am sure I have found scum.

[MURDERCAT]

Shea later I am going to post a read on Noraa (and the others). I'd like you to mentally commit to what sorts of things you expect to see in that read as I think you are tunneled on me and I'm afraid that no matter what I post you will scum read me for it. (e.g. oh he is just distancing or fence sitting or protecting, any read I give could be seen as scummy.) Don't tell me obviously, I just want you to think about that before I post.

[MURDERCAT]

duppin scum with Noraa confirmed

[MURDERCAT]

PEdit: if there wasn't the earlier thing regarding duppin I might agree with that, MCat, but I think duppin moved in on Noraa at a point that it makes him extremely likely to be town, regardless of what Noraa's alignment is.

I was just trolling, as if duppin is scum with whoever he is interacting with

[MURDERCAT]

Duppin
My meta read on Duppin was useful but noninformative. What I mean by that is that a lot of the things that were sort of light pinging me seem to be NAI, or at least I didn’t pick anything concrete up. I’m talking about posts like 159 and 160 that kind of feel like questions that sound to me like trying to seem busy. Like I answer 160 in 163 and (I believe) never get a response. I feel like I can never quite place where duppin is at. But looking through town isos convinced me that this isn’t weird for him. It also convinced me that he is probably quite good at scum, as I really didn’t pick up anything concrete comparing the games I looked at. The other thing about duppin is that he just seems very agreeable? Like he doesn’t want to get on anyone’s bad side. But again I’m not letting that ping me for him anymore now that I did meta. 825 still makes me feel weird, but it the absence of other weirdness that I think is AI, I’m going to drop it. I do like his recent interaction with Noraa, but I’m going to stop short of a full town read, because I really didn’t pick anything up when I read his scum game. So town lean for duppin for now.

OutWorldER
Obviously no meta info for OutWorld so this is all based on iso. What I get out of OutWorld’s early game is a lot of poking around and fence sitting, e.g. 64 and 201. It could easily be scum waiting for a target or confused town. Posts like 203 sort of give me the same feeling as I was getting about duppin, it just feels like a question that ends up going nowhere as Pooky responds a few posts later and there is no follow up. Going to follow where the Noraa read in 234 goes. Also going to follow the Panzer read in 515. 516 feels maybe a bit inconsistent about Noraa? I’m not sure I want to commit hard to that though, there were a lot of posts between them. 722 is a switch again on Noraa to then vote Pooky on 727. I didn’t catch this at the time, it does feel a bit strange to me and considering where Shea is at makes me question if he is right that Noraa is scum that isn’t getting voted. I’m not clear on OutWorld, I think I need to see flips before I sort this slot. Going with town for now as a result.

[MURDERCAT]

Noraa
Honestly the biggest thing I got from going over Noraa’s scum game is that there are actually not that many posts about the game. Like there is literally no solving the entire time, all fluff. As town I see plenty of posts that I fundamentally disagree with on like a basic understanding of the game level. Like in one post she says that PR for 1 scum is not a good trade. If I were in the game I would probably scumread the hell out of her for that, but she is actually town. In this game there are plenty of these posts as well. As already stated, I don’t think there is actually anything I agree with in 205. I feel the same way about 208, 303, 307, 313, 407, 452 and probably more. But I also see a lot of posts about the game. I also feel like the defense of Pooky is strange in the situation that she is scum and he is not. Posts like 843 make me think she is actually considering game information. 871 is still laughably bad. Shea my question for you is, where do you think Noraa is doing something that is evidence of scum pushing something? I see that you think her lack of a vote was weird, note that I called that out too. 852 is a bad post. But I don’t see Noraa doing anything that screams scum, just things that I find wrong and somewhat frustrating to try to interact with. I know I joked about it earlier but I am actually willing to vote there if you want to try to convince me. It's not like I think she is town lock or anything.

[MURDERCAT]

UneducatedGuesser
Phew last one. Not enough here for a meta read, so again all based on iso. I actually really like 165 it feels genuine in that I don’t think it is sheeping anyone else like I would expect from newb scum. UG what is your experience offsite? I actually didn’t realize how little experience you have onsite as your posts read like a more experienced poster IMO. You mentioned that you played off-site, curious about how much? Honestly I don’t think I have a lot of commentary on UG’s iso other than to say I probably should have been town reading him more. I think it’s just the overall low number of posts that prevented me from doing that. The posts that are there just read really genuine and show independent game solving IMO.

[MURDERCAT]

this was all a bunch of fence sitting and then ending with please someone come convince me she's scum that way when she flips green, its their fault. This just feels scummy. I dont like it.

I hear ur frustration and it doesn't feel faked and that's the only thing stopping me from tunneling u rn murder.

I mean the truth is I think this game would be a lot easier if you were scum and I believed it

[MURDERCAT]

Also I'm going to do this, I meant it when I said that my intention is not to tunnel Pooky

UNVOTE:

gun to head right now, I feel like we are looking at something like Pooky/Panzer and either a lurker slot like NM or someone who is outplaying me at the moment like UG or duppin. Alternatively I think there is a world where Noraa is scum maybe with OutWorld? But obviously that is more likely if I'm scum which I know to not be the case.

I am just gunna park my vote here because I feel very safe with this.

VOTE: Panzer

[MURDERCAT]

Still feel like the Panzer vote that is on me from page 1 and hasn't changed should be pinging more people

This still applies by the way

[MURDERCAT]

Deadline: 3 days, 12 hours, 26 minutes

[MURDERCAT]

I'm not sure how Panzer's apathy is alignment indicative - do you have data that shows he is more apathetic in his scum-games ?

What's more telling btw is how you and blitzo seem to be wavering so quickly in the face of resistance and willing to look for a softer target.

Pooky we don't have to fight about this, clearly Panzer is not playing in a protown way, no? Does that not warrant some votes?

[MURDERCAT]

This line is really all over the place, and it's kind of funny you are trying to smear Noraa/Outworld if you are scum. Like that's just a weird thought to have.

I'm saying that I think the information that I have that I am town leads me to be more likely to believe that Noraa is town, compared to Shea who doesn't have that knowledge (at least I hope not)

[MURDERCAT]

I disagree with the proposition that Shea is not genuine there, but I agree that Noraas bad posts aren't clearly from a scum perspective, I think they just make no sense in general.

[MURDERCAT]

Mostly? Can you elaborate?

I think I mentioned it in another post but I am feeling like Shea is mostly worried about me because of interactions with Noraa. So the mostly is the idea that he probably would actually like it if I had agreed to vote her. Not in the way proposed in that post though of course

[MURDERCAT]

Remind me to address this later, specifically by Saturday if I haven’t by then

Will do

[MURDERCAT]

Also re murdercat: I've already told you that my vote on you is because you're a scumread and not merely leftover from RVS.

I'm not saying it's not a scum read, but what town member legitimately thinks they find scum on page one and never picks up on a bigger scum read at any point or never tries to pressure anyone else with their vote? You have had no doubts about anything going on in the game at any point? It's not even like there's been a wagon on me the whole time, you're just parked on me

[MURDERCAT]

Hi NM we are voting panzer because he is not an active contributor

[MURDERCAT]

This is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read. I voted you. I afk'd. When I caught up, you were the scummiest person in my read and *easily* the person I am most confident in being scum. It's that simple.

Aight. It just doesn't seem like something town would do. I have seen your other scum reads, but I haven't really seen you pressure them or interact with anyone else? Your iso is all "I caught scum" and "Kasu is scum lmao" and calling our random stuff without any followthrough like "I don't like the pooky votes" or "that phrasing is weird." so how I am supposed to interact with your reads? Can you give me a bit more about what you are actually thinking?

[MURDERCAT]

You kinda glossed over this string of posts from Noraa, MCat, so what do you make of it? My takeaway is that Noraa tried to appear as thoughtful and considerate town, but wasn't ready to get grilled on the level she was and thus floundered in response to the pressure.

I went back and read in context. I agree with Shea's read on these posts, at least on some level (and I want to point out again that we were basically saying the same thing at the time).

Others have been scummier as of late so for now
UNVOTE: Murder

Then why...not..........vote them?

Like honestly I don't understand this post on a fundamental level. If you're trying to yeet the scum and you say your reason to unvote someone is that others have been scummier why do you not vote anyone? "I want to yeet people more than you so unvote don't vote any of those people." is just nonsensical. It looks like noraa is trying to get off a vote that wasn't picking up steam and is waiting to see who does pick up steam in order to place that vote.

I might be reading too much into this but I actually think I hate it more than almost anything else thats happened in the game.

I think Noraa's interaction with the unvote depends a lot on how you view me. If you think I'm scum then Noraa might be scum finding a reason to jump off me, which I think is what Shea is picking up on. But from my perspective it looks like Noraa is actually not sure who to vote. Scum Noraa has no reason to jump off of me there, if there was another wagon picking up steam she would have just waited and voted directly. So what Shea interprets as an unvote and a wait and see approach looks to me like a townie who is actually waiting to gather more info about Outworld. And to be clear, it still makes no sense to me, but from my perspective I don't see scum motivation for doing it.

[MURDERCAT]

On the list of people asking me things that I can address. You are last on the list. Mostly because you are scum.

That's fine, I'm just saying it's unclear how you expect anyone to interact deeply with your content.