Mini Normal 2191 | Endgame

[ben dover123]

Bruh I missed the opening of the thread
I see Dkkoba is in this game, can't wait to play with you and blow 50 pages of posts like nothing
VOTE: Chumbo don't tell me you randed scum again??

[ben dover123]

I wonder why this game is a 9p...
It's very interesting.

[ben dover123]

I wonder why this game is a 9p...
It's very interesting.

I can't tell if you're serious or not, what's interesting about a game being 9p?

I thought mini normal's were only 13p games but I suppose not.

Also not sure what is up with nepenthe, nothing bad seems to strike me with his posts yet.

[ben dover123]

jumping into this to say:

i know that random voting is site meta on MS but i guess i’ve never understood the point of it and as a contrarian, want to set myself apart from the many by not doing that yet. and announcing that i’m not doing it, to boot.

(also, gentle heads up that i think dkkoba’s pronouns are they/them. not to embarrass anyone but i know it’s important to have gender identity recognized externally.)

Pretty sure you guys are talking about this post which certainly is weird but I have done the exact same before in 2043 and the person who called it self-conscious turned out to be scum so...VOTE: Dkkoba

[ben dover123]

He's apologetic abt it is where im having issue where there's a lot of self consciousness involved IMO

Yeah but like I think it's honestly more town for the fact that nepenthe drew attention towards it in the first place so early on, and I have done literally the exact same in a past game.

He's apologetic abt it is where im having issue where there's a lot of self consciousness involved IMO

I see what you're saying but I think the improbability of making any kind of attention-drawing play

at all

overwhelms the part where if they

did

decide to make a scene as scum they'd be self-conscious about it.

Me and Umlaut having a bit of a mindmeld, I see?

Pedit:

jumping into this to say:

i know that random voting is site meta on MS but i guess i’ve never understood the point of it and as a contrarian, want to set myself apart from the many by not doing that yet. and announcing that i’m not doing it, to boot.

(also, gentle heads up that i think dkkoba’s pronouns are they/them. not to embarrass anyone but i know it’s important to have gender identity recognized externally.)

Pretty sure you guys are talking about this post which certainly is weird but I have done the exact same before in 2043 and the person who called it self-conscious turned out to be scum so...VOTE: Dkkoba

At what point in the game did they bring it up? (plus im not that person so pls fuck off lol)

This was also in the first page so that's why I'm concerned about it here too.

[ben dover123]

this game correct?

*nods*

[ben dover123]

wait they said u were defensive/passive LMFAO this is different literally fuck way off

Same gist still, so that comparison clicks anyways.

tonally being apologetic IS a scumtell. scum guilt, as its called.

im not about to bet all my chips on it rn but its an EXTREMELY good place to start for me.

There isn't really any motivation to do it in the first place, and that's my point.

gtg for a few hours

[ben dover123]

i think ur vibes are town so far chumbo :3

what is "town vibes" to you? i'm not sure how you came to this conclusion so quickly

(also i just read over the rules and saw only 1 bah post is allowed so i'm sorry for my 2 opening posts without content, i just tried to send something that didn't go through so i wasn't sure if it was working)

i wouldn't consider the aggression itself an alignment tell. more-so it felt like people made posts that seemed null or fine to me so i wasn't sure why you called them scummy

do we know how many mafia are in this game or is everything closed?

lol this slot. Probably going to derpclear lenora here + tone.

[ben dover123]

UNVOTE: Dkkoba
getting town vibes from how far koba is pushing their read on nepenthe.

[ben dover123]

UNVOTE: Dkkoba
getting town vibes from how far koba is pushing their read on nepenthe.

could you explain this a bit more? i don't really see it. i keep re-reading nepenthe's opening posts to find the self-consciousness, but to me it just looks like nepenthe is considering different peoples strategies vs. how he himself approaches the game and that he's aware of his own weaknesses. dk then jumped to a read/assumption really fast. i'm know my reads will probably be rusty in this game as it's been quite a bit, so it's helpful to me when people can walk through their reasoning in case i'm missing something

Yeah I'm not completely sure on Koba's attack on nepenthe either but I feel like Koba's motivation to be this aggressive with their read on nepenthe is towny. Just trying to get every last reaction and AI material from nepenthe, that's what I see.

[ben dover123]

i saw it as a bit OTT/performative - i'd maybe feel differently if they re-evaluated from it or if I saw the test on nepenthe as useful, but i'm getting the sense that koba is struggling to explain their reads/reasons

VOTE: dkkoba

Well I'm fairly certain that Koba is usually this aggressive and I don't think this relates to "struggling to explain their reads/reasons" in the slightest, it's just how Koba plays the game.

[ben dover123]

it's not the aggression itself that i find scummy though, it's the explanations.. like townreading Chumbo because he doesn't look like he has information

I haven't seen this...maybe I should read but if you can I'd like some quotes.

[ben dover123]

I get the impression you've made several

I'm just a newb and I don't understand things

remarks back to back and I'm concerned that you're deliberately playing up that angle. I saw town get burned by that in a game not too long ago.

Such has happened before? I'd definitely like to see the game.

I'm not sure if I want to derpclear lenora now that I know that she plays on ms. Derpclears are most effective on a genuine newbie, but not very good on someone who has played the game a couple times before.

[ben dover123]

I get the impression you've made several

I'm just a newb and I don't understand things

remarks back to back and I'm concerned that you're deliberately playing up that angle. I saw town get burned by that in a game not too long ago.

Such has happened before? I'd definitely like to see the game.

I'm not sure if I want to derpclear lenora now that I know that she plays on ms. Derpclears are most effective on a genuine newbie, but not very good on someone who has played the game a couple times before.

i don't play on ms? this is my first game on this board. you don't need to clear me or whatever though because i'd probably have the same confusion regardless of my alignment, but i'd appreciate if people are understanding about it

Sorry, I meant mu.


Not really a fan of Fuzzy's "observation" as it's rather...hollow imo by only looking at nepenthe.
Also, I want to see what Chumbo has to say about this when all is done and done. I've seen his scumgame and his towngame is rather proactive'y so I definitely want to hear from him soon.


Pedit:

There's nothing to derp clear cuz there's no derps there

The derpclear I had in mind was lenora saying this:

i wouldn't consider the aggression itself an alignment tell. more-so it felt like people made posts that seemed null or fine to me so i wasn't sure why you called them scummy

do we know how many mafia are in this game or is everything closed?

On a similar note this would apply to nepenthe too but it looks like he's been here for a while.

i was assuming 3 but that'd probably make more sense for 10p.

[ben dover123]

activity post

Aah, I'm kinda excited to see Ben's detective skills in action too. He couldn't do much in the last game we coincided, and everyone there hyped him as town beast, haha.

I can't wait, I have a feeling that this game is gonna be fun.

oh yes when I try to be proactive I can be proactive.

Writing down the scum team and putting it in an envelope

Chumbo's in the envelope

What's the point of revealing Chumbo already? Not sure if I'm really a fan of this modified GtH.

As a person who has played his town game, I can confirm he is rather townie as town. I don't know what his scum game is like though. If you want to link a scum game, ben, I'll take a look.

No scumgames on this forum yet

I wonder if Umlaut is just town based on his paranoia of lenora here. He really seems to be concerned about lenora and getting burned out from a fake newbie slip. Personally, I think lenora is just town and is doing towny stuff to back up that her confusion isn't some pre-planned newbie slip.

Maduisha giving me some town vibes from her catchup.

Can you share some more thoughts, Koba? Is your read on Chumbo all you have got?

This game is really slow. I think it's time we pump some AI stuff in so that we have stuff to work with before deadline. I'll probably start analyzing stuff in more detail tmrw and we should all start getting into more discussion.

[ben dover123]

Hello, I am awake. Let me read a bit...

[ben dover123]

Hey it's clidd!

[ben dover123]

almost forgot about analyzing a bit

Spoiler: analyzing

jumping into this to say:

i know that random voting is site meta on MS but i guess i’ve never understood the point of it and as a contrarian, want to set myself apart from the many by not doing that yet. and announcing that i’m not doing it, to boot.

(also, gentle heads up that i think dkkoba’s pronouns are they/them. not to embarrass anyone but i know it’s important to have gender identity recognized externally.)

This is towny from nepenthe.

Koba is being fairly aggressive but actually I think it might be NAI because Koba always plays like this.

I don't like the self-conscious attack that Koba is making because it doesn't really add up to me and honestly it feels kinda off.

also, am i being pocketed by ben? is this what it feels like? am i the pet townie?

This "being wary about pocketing" act is pretty towny coming from nepenthe.

lenora's tone is so...pure it just feels like she is town from tone. I don't really want to read into her tone farther than this.

Maduisha's posts are giving me town vibes but it seems that she is competent so I'll keep a close eye on her.

Koba's behavior isn't something I really like so I'll just read most of their posts as null since I think their playstyle antagonizes mine. Not in the mood to go full arguing mode like I do with Trendall in Newbie games.

lenora's attempt to sort Koba just feels like it comes from town.

Ok just got done reading through this thread

The only person I might of played with before might be Umlaut and that's a big maybe. There a lot of new people here so I am not sure exactly how to read them. There is also not much to work with . Page 5 in the RVS usually does not tell us much about a player in my opinion

Some observation
If Nepenthe is town he would be an easy target for scum to try to eliminate. I am not sure if Nepenthe is an awkward town or awkward scum. As both seem possible at the moment

Also dont know if Umlaut is faking outrage over the newbie posts. I been burnt by newbscum before but I also got railroaded as a new player by scum because I was an easy lynch. I think Umlaut is a player that's worth keeping my eyes on

Fuzzy's observation is very surface level analysis and I'm really not a fan. I definitely could settle on a Fuzzy wagon if we have nothing good to go off of by the end of the day.

Umlaut fearing lenora to be scum who is trying to get TR'ed by "newbieness" feels like unnecessary paranoia that only comes from town. Definitely ok leaving Umlaut as nulltown for rn.

Writing down the scum team and putting it in an envelope

Chumbo's in the envelope

Definitely do not like the sequence here.

Chumbo's drunk posting is quite surface level. Feels awfully filler and I want to see where clidd is going with this slot.

Maduisha is doing some deep analysis which I like for how slow this game is currently.

@Ben- Fair. There was not to work with. I figured that most posts were mostly first thoughts and I wanted to see if the accusations were there to get things moving or things that players were willing to push harder. My thoughts were just basic observations that popped out. Things are moving forward and I can start to sort things out.

This would pass for me if it wasn't the fact that Fuzzy hasn't said much about actual thoughts. That doesn't reflect very well for him.

Alright, I don't know if this is some start of the day joke, but if you actually have some gut feeling about Chumbo, please do share the reason. I don't like the current pushes out there, so I'd be willing to listen if you think you can sell me a Chumbo wagon.

I did think his drunk-posting was alright, but let's see.

Just seemed like classic lurkscum. Also the drunk-posting, which wouldn't be a factor at the time I Made that post cuz he: wrote it after I posted, was just rapid-fire nothingness replies if you ask me. Never been a fan of those, it's the easiest effort to ape.

Since you scumread him before his drunk posting I won't factor that reason in

tbh this still doesn't explain why you explicitly revealed Chumbo from the envelope. Like if "classic lurkscum" is the only thing you have against Chumbo then wouldn't it make sense just to hold onto that read for a bit longer and then see how it develops? Calling someone as "classic lurkscum" 5 pages into the game isn't a great read especially in a low content game like this.

I wouldn't call him noob because he clearly has experience for years and stuff. The only thing pinging me kinda weird is that he refuses to explain whether he has a read on Fuzzy or not, but Chumbo already pressed on that matter.

I'm mindmelding with this line of thought. For calling Chumbo out just for lurking on page 5 Zulfy should be fine with calling other people out? I want to see what he has to say with this.

I remember playing against scum!Maduisha once or twice, but after looking at her takes here, I noticed that the superficial instance of neutrality that she addressed during the game that I lost to scum!she is not expressively present here. I feel a organic frequency of opinions coming from her, which is probably coming more from town!Maduisha than not. Evidently, I'm not sure if there was an evolution in her scumgame, but I believe that I will be able to reconsider if I notice that my impression is incorrect (eventually).

My experience with Umlaut is more from player to mod than player to player. Particularly, I don't know how his meta works, but the point that I found towny from him was his approach to the behavior that Lenora had, as it reflected me as genuinely skeptical. It's hard imo to see scum!Umlaut using a very specific material to push someone (112) as scum, instead of rescuing a piece in memory unconsciously stimulated by the need for scumhunting as town.

Obviously, "genuine" does not always come from town, as scum could also argue about a real event that occurred, but in the context of Umlaut/Lenora, I see it as more town indicative than scum indicative.

clidd coming in and absolutely obvtowning out of the gate. Now I'm feeling a bit paranoid about him but I'll see how he progresses on from here.

Ben dover: Have honestly completely skipped past em in my skimming.

Oh dear, maybe I have to get a bit more into this game. The last thing I want is to be completely unnoticed, that's not how I'll get in my groove in games.

Reads:
Fuzzy - nullscum
Zulfy - null
Umlaut - nulltown
Maduisha - townlean
Koba - null
Lenora - townlean
clidd - townlean
nepenthe - nulltown

VOTE: Fuzzy

I'm fine with Fuzzy as my vote currently. Definitely want to pressure this slot and we need a couple wagons going for EoD. Not sure about Zulfy because the only thing I can see as slightly scummy is the Chumbo ordeal but I kinda want to give him some more time on that.

[ben dover123]

If you're town, you shouldn't be paranoid of me, Ben.

You know what happened last game, right?

Sorry, sorry, I'm honestly scared at how you can easily just obvtown on and off. It honestly gives me the scares when I'm playing with you. I'm going under training to get my mindset to a "never think twice". That would probably help my game a lot.

[ben dover123]

I mean, my scumgame is probably better than my towngame. Although my scum roll is almost nonexistent.

But as long as you keep an open mind, avoid confbias and are constantly evaluating me in good faith, I shouldn't be a problem.

Sounds good, clidd.

I think I'll go log off now and look at the reasons for why Zulfy is scum tmrw because I'm hella tired. Goodnight!

[ben dover123]

The format you made here was very similar to that of your last scumgame.

When I compare your earlygame here with your town games (Micro 882/Mini 2139), I couldn't find the same formatting used in post 180 to illustrate your reads. Which is why I expected a different reaction from you.

Micro 882: Public Cop 9P:
viewtopic.php?t=80492&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Mini Normal 2139:
viewtopic.php?t=82964&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Your tone in these two games seemed more organic and your comments more widely spaced. Even when someone asked you to say what you were thinking, your reaction was not necessarily to focus everything on a kind of pbp readlist, as you did specifically here and in the scumgame I mentioned.

In contrast, the content of 180 seemed to verbalize a more direct and less comical/more serious message compared to the content of the post you made as scum (which is a good/towny signal). But again, I'm on a speculative field, so I probably need to see more of your engagement with the game to determine the accuracy of my impression of you.

oh my goodness clidd

[ben dover123]

Honestly I feel like this game has been way too smooth for only 10 pages. Something feels off but I can't nail exactly what is off.
Still not getting why people think Zulfy is scum. Clidd's analysis is a nice touch but I'm not feeling it.

[ben dover123]

Like I feel like the "distribution of pressure" thing isn't really necessarily scummy on it's own and I wanted to give Zulfy more time to see how this "distribution of pressure" would develop and his intentions with it. Still not 100% sure where he is going with this pressure and I'm much better off with my vote on Fuzzy so I'll keep on watching.

[ben dover123]

As I said before it was an attempt to not give up all of my stakes when applying pressure. I was asked if Fuzzy was my other scum read when I mentioned my envelope, I didn't want to make it clear whether or not he was an RVS vote or not right away, I wanted to be able to apply pressure to others.
Vote Fuzzy

I just found this and I'm not exactly sure if I like this stance that Zulfy is taking. Like now it's slowly turning into a "setting up targets" feel that I really dislike.

[ben dover123]

DKKoba has been banned. Finding replacement.

. . .

[ben dover123]

Why hello there.

[ben dover123]

Hello, I am here. Reading soon.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: Post #252

Lenora-

I do not like how she is just going along to get along in 128 144 and 225. She pretty much agreeing with the players she is addressing and not adding much else. Not sure if she is just coasting town or coasting here. 129 is bad .To me it very much feel likes she is trying to earn town points. The only real thing that is reading town to me is her push for more info on DK.

Zufy

- His read on Chumbo is just bad 137. I would expect more from a more experienced player. Not sure how anyone can get from drunk posting and lurking to scum. This seems like a huge leap in logic. Him avoiding the question in 139 gives me any confidence in him as town. It is true scum lurks but so does town. I am not getting how he is splitting the difference in the two. 177 reads very much reads as scum wondering if the replacement will make or push for him or me. 180 is a surface read of a few players. This was a chance to give a clear and rational reason of his town reads and scum reads. 195 and 197 is hard to read. it is very much possible that he was setting a reaction test but to me it feels a bit like he is defending his bad RVS post and I dont get why.

Dakoba

- the first few post of Koba were blah. 150 is okay I guess. I would like to hear what exactly the approach Zufy took that gave Koba the scum read. I like the pressure she is putting on Madisha here 159. I read Koba other posts and honestly, there was nothing there. I dont what to make out of her drop in quality

Chid-

I am skeptical about his based on meta as meta can be manipulated. 170 171 and 173 . I like the pressure on Zufy to clarifying his thinking 179. 188 I can see how he got a scum read on me however i dont think three posts can give a player a decent read on a player. 190- I like his line of reasoning here. He makes a good point about Zufy Chumbo read. 194- I disagree with his read on my but as I said I can see how he got there. Gut reaction from 200 and 201 feels like it is coming from town. 201 feels like a come from a scum favoring player who drew town
I like in 212 that he is trying to form strong town allies for the process of P.O.E. -222 like the push on Lerona for clarity here, Also like how he trying to sort her here
I really like his over thought process though we disagree on some things. To me I am leaning very much town . I am not sure why anyone would think he would be scum given
everything overall.


more later......

Hmm. These reads have been used by a lot of other people too so I'm not putting much weight on them. I want to see some original ideas from Fuzzy.

Spoiler: Post #271

all my thoughts are based on page 5 and on....same as the above list

Umlaut

131 liking the push back on Zulfy here. This is something that needed clarity. 153 is weak. I am not getting why he is town reading Maduesha . If it because of her previous post there was nothing in particular that would push for a particular alignment. I found her post pretty null. I think the read needs a better explanation. I would say the same thing about his strong town read on Clidd in 165. He seems to be interacting with Clidd a lot and I dont know if it because he trying to form a town alliance or if he just budddying him. 172 feels a bit vague. what exactly about Clidds reads that he likes? 248 seems odd to me. He scum reads me then suddenly remember that in my old game I was lunchbait. Not sure what to make of this sudden revelation.


Ben Dover
192 not liking this a lot because his read on Nepthe is based on meta and I already explain why I dislike pure meta reads. His Leona and Madeusha reads are pretty basic and not very flushed out. His read on me and Zufy seems very much cut and paste with everyone else's. In fact the whole post just feel like he is just agreeing with everyone else. 199 the overall way he was apologizing seem weird to me. The abrupt 180 here feels off 229. Just a day ago he was scumreading Zulfy. The timing seems odd as well. Maeusha just put a vote on me pushing my wagon ahead. This really feel like he jumping ship because he wants to jump on my wagon. Feels very optunistic. 256- back on Zulfy. Ben seems all over the place with his Zulfy read and I am not sure what to make it. Part of me feels like he being opportunistic and trying to figure out what figure out what is the best miskill and part of me think it might be his norma sorting

I think this is new and it's good to see a new POV about this gamestate. This is a good step forward for Fuzzy and I want to see where he goes from here before I remove my vote. Posting original reads is good but any capable scum player can do this as well.

I'm not exactly sure what to think of these Ben posts read together. At first I thought he was coinciding with me in that Zulfy is kinda fishy but not necessarily scum, but now the accusation about him setting up others as targets is worrying me, because the player Zulfy is supposedly "setting up" is the current leading wagon, and I'm wondering if Ben is just re-evaluating the slot because the game state doesn't make much sense to him, or because he's actually slowly trying to pivot off from Fuzzy for other reasons.

Well, it's more like I feel that Zulfy is taking his pressure on Fuzzy too far if he is supposed to be applying equal pressure to his SR's. Like, if Fuzzy flips town then it feels like Zulfy could just plop onto the clidd/Chumbo slot later.
Although it seems I missed some context as Zulfy changed his read on clidd's slot after he replaced in, so I think I'm missing something here.

Welcome, Cabd. I look forward to see what your impressions of the current gamestate are when you are done catching up.

Right now I feel like Nepenthe is a little confused about who replaces who, so I'm not sure if I can read much until that stuff is clarified. As for Fuzzy, I feel like he has poured the effort to read through the thread and it shows in the way he complimented the commentaries with links to the posts he refers to when commenting them. I liked that, but it's becoming a little hard to read a slot that mostly posts on weekends.

Effort isn't really a good tell since if scum tries hard they can pour effort into basically everything. What I'm looking for is how original Fuzzy's ideas are. I think that's much more important then putting in a lot of effort into his reads.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: Post #252

Lenora-

I do not like how she is just going along to get along in 128 144 and 225. She pretty much agreeing with the players she is addressing and not adding much else. Not sure if she is just coasting town or coasting here. 129 is bad .To me it very much feel likes she is trying to earn town points. The only real thing that is reading town to me is her push for more info on DK.

Zufy

- His read on Chumbo is just bad 137. I would expect more from a more experienced player. Not sure how anyone can get from drunk posting and lurking to scum. This seems like a huge leap in logic. Him avoiding the question in 139 gives me any confidence in him as town. It is true scum lurks but so does town. I am not getting how he is splitting the difference in the two. 177 reads very much reads as scum wondering if the replacement will make or push for him or me. 180 is a surface read of a few players. This was a chance to give a clear and rational reason of his town reads and scum reads. 195 and 197 is hard to read. it is very much possible that he was setting a reaction test but to me it feels a bit like he is defending his bad RVS post and I dont get why.

Dakoba

- the first few post of Koba were blah. 150 is okay I guess. I would like to hear what exactly the approach Zufy took that gave Koba the scum read. I like the pressure she is putting on Madisha here 159. I read Koba other posts and honestly, there was nothing there. I dont what to make out of her drop in quality

Chid-

I am skeptical about his based on meta as meta can be manipulated. 170 171 and 173 . I like the pressure on Zufy to clarifying his thinking 179. 188 I can see how he got a scum read on me however i dont think three posts can give a player a decent read on a player. 190- I like his line of reasoning here. He makes a good point about Zufy Chumbo read. 194- I disagree with his read on my but as I said I can see how he got there. Gut reaction from 200 and 201 feels like it is coming from town. 201 feels like a come from a scum favoring player who drew town
I like in 212 that he is trying to form strong town allies for the process of P.O.E. -222 like the push on Lerona for clarity here, Also like how he trying to sort her here
I really like his over thought process though we disagree on some things. To me I am leaning very much town . I am not sure why anyone would think he would be scum given
everything overall.


more later......

Hmm. These reads have been used by a lot of other people too so I'm not putting much weight on them. I want to see some original ideas from Fuzzy.

Spoiler: Post #271

all my thoughts are based on page 5 and on....same as the above list

Umlaut

131 liking the push back on Zulfy here. This is something that needed clarity. 153 is weak. I am not getting why he is town reading Maduesha . If it because of her previous post there was nothing in particular that would push for a particular alignment. I found her post pretty null. I think the read needs a better explanation. I would say the same thing about his strong town read on Clidd in 165. He seems to be interacting with Clidd a lot and I dont know if it because he trying to form a town alliance or if he just budddying him. 172 feels a bit vague. what exactly about Clidds reads that he likes? 248 seems odd to me. He scum reads me then suddenly remember that in my old game I was lunchbait. Not sure what to make of this sudden revelation.


Ben Dover
192 not liking this a lot because his read on Nepthe is based on meta and I already explain why I dislike pure meta reads. His Leona and Madeusha reads are pretty basic and not very flushed out. His read on me and Zufy seems very much cut and paste with everyone else's. In fact the whole post just feel like he is just agreeing with everyone else. 199 the overall way he was apologizing seem weird to me. The abrupt 180 here feels off 229. Just a day ago he was scumreading Zulfy. The timing seems odd as well. Maeusha just put a vote on me pushing my wagon ahead. This really feel like he jumping ship because he wants to jump on my wagon. Feels very optunistic. 256- back on Zulfy. Ben seems all over the place with his Zulfy read and I am not sure what to make it. Part of me feels like he being opportunistic and trying to figure out what figure out what is the best miskill and part of me think it might be his norma sorting

I think this is new and it's good to see a new POV about this gamestate. This is a good step forward for Fuzzy and I want to see where he goes from here before I remove my vote. Posting original reads is good but any capable scum player can do this as well.

I'm not exactly sure what to think of these Ben posts read together. At first I thought he was coinciding with me in that Zulfy is kinda fishy but not necessarily scum, but now the accusation about him setting up others as targets is worrying me, because the player Zulfy is supposedly "setting up" is the current leading wagon, and I'm wondering if Ben is just re-evaluating the slot because the game state doesn't make much sense to him, or because he's actually slowly trying to pivot off from Fuzzy for other reasons.

Well, it's more like I feel that Zulfy is taking his pressure on Fuzzy too far if he is supposed to be applying equal pressure to his SR's. Like, if Fuzzy flips town then it feels like Zulfy could just plop onto the clidd/Chumbo slot later.
Although it seems I missed some context as Zulfy changed his read on clidd's slot after he replaced in, so I think I'm missing something here.

Welcome, Cabd. I look forward to see what your impressions of the current gamestate are when you are done catching up.

Right now I feel like Nepenthe is a little confused about who replaces who, so I'm not sure if I can read much until that stuff is clarified. As for Fuzzy, I feel like he has poured the effort to read through the thread and it shows in the way he complimented the commentaries with links to the posts he refers to when commenting them. I liked that, but it's becoming a little hard to read a slot that mostly posts on weekends.

Effort isn't really a good tell since if scum tries hard they can pour effort into basically everything. What I'm looking for is how original Fuzzy's ideas are. I think that's much more important then putting in a lot of effort into his reads.

[ben dover123]

1/10

As I catch up I have a solid town core of {lenora, nepenthe, Maduisha, Clidd} (not necessarily in that order) and a fairly significant scumread on Umlaut.

Can I have a explanation for this towncore?

[ben dover123]

2/10

Spoiler: Tangent

I recently finished a perfect win scum game (Tenet, large theme subforum, 600+ page behemoth) where we got literally no scum deaths in four double days in a large theme precisely because town was too forthcoming with their reads and softing roles, such that my team could predict everything going down a day or two in advance with about a 90% success rate. I'm going to be trying to play reads a little closer to the chest to avoid the exact same scenario getting Uno-Reverse'd on me. This is also the reason behind intentionally limiting myself to fewer posts per day, I had like a 9 page ISO that game, and it severely hurt the ability of the town to coordinate. (Which, in fairness, I was scum so that was good for me) This game has an extremely ideal and healthy posting pace, and with dkkoba gone and me in the slot, the only hyper-poster is gone. I'd like to keep this thread manageable and enjoyable for all.

Hmm, ok. I'll remind myself to check back with you later when you are ready to reveal why you have this towncore.

[ben dover123]

I can kinda see what you mean with the first 4 quotes but then Umlaut contributed to shrinking the pool to 4 people FHPOV and then the final quote isn't really pushing back on a softclear, more like reconsidering his read, so I don't think this case is worthy of a scumread. I'll need you to go in more detail about how this warranted your vote because I don't see it at all.

[ben dover123]

Hmm, I'd help you pressure with a vote, but I still want to see what Nep has to say about his discrepancy between Clidd being "scummy" and "bluffing", yet townreading Chumbo when he was still there.

I feel like my vote is more useful by mantaining pressure on Fuzzy for now, too. Especially considering Ben has expressed intention of abandoning the wagon twice already, even if he hasn't moved yet. My main concern right now is how short of a D1 deadline we have left, with Fuzzy being partially unavailable.

I'm not looking to abandon the wagon until all is said and done with Fuzzy. His take with Umlaut and me being opportunistic is interesting but as I have said it's not enough to move my vote.

[ben dover123]

[quote="In post 303, TheFuzzylogic99"
I also dont get how Ben is getting being original =town. Yes town needs to have original takes as its easy to repeat others ideas. For scum it helps them fit in and for town it makes them harder to read. Maybe I am misunderstanding him but I find it odd that he put importance on something like originality instead of the thinking behind the post or whether the post seems like it is being faked.
[/quote]

Original takes and progression on these takes can lead scum away from their original agenda and I find it a good stepping stone to start reading people. Keeping transparency and clear reasoning to continue these takes is even harder for scum to fake and I'm looking for stuff like that too.

[ben dover123]

Honestly this leaning-in response isn't what I usually expect from Mafia so this is pretty town. Hmm.

wait what is this logic

[ben dover123]

Fuzzy- while I am not scumreading you, you are L-1 with under six hours to deadline. Highly advise you claim so we can avoid disaster just in case.

Wrong we have a couple more days. Cycles are 10/2, not 7/2.

[ben dover123]

Going to be more involved in this game very soon. Let me read up a bit as it seems there is new content to analyze.

[ben dover123]

wait a 2-shot neapolitan...
that's a vanilla cop right?
hmm

[ben dover123]

Vanilla cop checks for PR while Neopal check if a player is van town or not, So there is a slight difference if I understand the roles right,

Oh I see
UNVOTE:
I think this claim is important and needs to be considered. I'll give Fuzzy some breathing room here while we analyze his claim.

[ben dover123]

Hello, I am awake.

Let me read a bit.

[ben dover123]

Jailkeeper doctor and roleblocker, all ungated, all town, in the same setup.

Along with FN and vanilla cop, also both town... vs 3 goons.

Wait, but have there ever been overlapping roles? Yeah I get this setup looks insanely unbalanced but I don't see any "overlapping roles" that you want us to be wary of.

[ben dover123]

Ok, I finished reading.

Fuzzy's role is...kinda like a alignment cop but much weaker. I think the only optimal use for his role is analyzing vt claims which don't happen often from scum (since scum usually claims a PR which is more important of a role). I'm still thinking of ways where we could safely clear Fuzzy out of mechanics but no ideas are coming to me.

I'm still safe with clidd, Maduisha, lenora, and Umlaut maybe. nepenthe's SR on clidd is very interesting and I want to see where it goes. I forgot about Zulfy and that may be a bad sign for him.

[ben dover123]

Oh I just realized, Neo can be fakeclaimed by a maf rolecop so there may not even be a mechanical way to clear Fuzzy here.

[ben dover123]

I want to know how does the Chumbo read affect your read on Clidd's slot, because you're reading the same slot twice in page 11.

I was gonna say, nepenthe was TR'ing Chumbo's entrance and then right afterwards he said "I'm inclined to vote clidd" which is weird. What is your final read on this slot, nepenthe?

[ben dover123]

Hey Cabd, I see you are still going at your Umlaut SR, can you talk to me about the reads outside of the townblock or is that "hold to chest" info as well?

[ben dover123]

Hey Cabd, I see you are still going at your Umlaut SR, can you talk to me about the reads outside of the townblock or is that "hold to chest" info as well?

Meh. It's more there because I'm lazy than because I'm still tunneled in on him.


UNVOTE:

can you answer the other question thanks

[ben dover123]

I can, I'm just at work at present, it'll be a "This evening" sort of ordeal.

ok thanks for the heads up. will be waiting until more people filter in because it seems that it's just you and me talking here.

[ben dover123]

Deadline

: (expired on 2021-01-27 21:11:00)

Hm. Not very long till deadline I see.

Thread is a absolute mess of inactivity. Will compromise on Zulfy if we need a last second lim but for now I'm still figuring out Fuzzy's claim and what to do with it.

[ben dover123]

Honestly unless there is a CC we probably should let Fuzzy live here. We don't really have the time to figure out Fuzzy's claim in absolute detail.

[ben dover123]

Speaking of which, people should start casting their votes now with deadline just around the corner.

okay yeah... fuzzy's play makes sense in the context of a pr. i guess i can see how they got scumread but it's kind of a reach. people i'd be comfortable voting today are still clidd, definitely cabd. i don't really see zulfy as being particularly towny either, but i'm open to being proven wrong. also - hopefully will be able to commit more time to this game at hours that make sense this week and opening myself up to any questions people might have in order to help themselves read me.

Definitely would like nepenthe to expand on this post and cast their vote. As I have said nepenthe is contradicting himself by TR'ing chumbo's entrance but SR'ing clidd and also I'm not sure how exactly fuzzy's play works in the context of a PR. can't see the connection there.

[ben dover123]

I have no idea why the game isn't moving on.

Yea, gamestate is very slow but I think this is better than whatever we had going on in 2043 kek.

[ben dover123]

Is it just me or Lenora is very complacent after Dkkoba was replaced? I feel like she went into coasting mode, although I’m very focused on Zulfy at the moment and sharing my attention with Nep to think about her.

Now that you say it, I kinda forgot about lenora when I read. If she posted it didn't exactly stand out to me and I must have passed over it. I don't think it is as bad as Zulfy's disappearance but it's interesting.

[ben dover123]

It's a pretty dry game. I think making a town pool and eliminating outside it and hoping for the best is really all we can do.

Yeah, it looks like one of those games where we have find town instead of scum.

[ben dover123]

I think Umlaut's cards are very similar to mine, with adjustments on Maduisha (not voting her today) and not really interested in Lenora. Leaves Cabd, Zulfy and Nepenthe for me and I'm fine with anyone in Zulfy and Nepenthe tbh.

[ben dover123]

Join us on Zulfy then

Let's get him out of his comfort zone.

Definitely considering it. gtg now but probably will make my vote tmrw.

[ben dover123]

actually wait we need to get the claim process done and all with barely over a day left until deadline so
VOTE: Zulfy

[ben dover123]

also I realized zulfy is still at E-2 so if Zulfy is the wagon votes should be going up now.

[ben dover123]

hmm
this game feels too easy
maybe a side effect of the game being 9p (feels a lot more smaller and we need to find less town) but the fact that hangpool is down to 3 people honestly scares me a bit.

[ben dover123]

1. i'm solidifying my scumread on clidd after going back and forth over that slot. just not able to townread them right now.

Nepenthe, sorry if I sound blunt, but is this the reason why you SR'ed clidd and voted clidd?

[ben dover123]

I have to remind myself that not everyone reads into the ether the same way...

I'm getting at, I don't think Fuzzy's role is compatible with my own, in a queue that explicitly forbids godfather as a role type.

I was hoping to not play this way but the thought of knowingly voting wrong and letting it get away just to potentially mislim sucks and is for people with stronger stomachs than I.

I am a JOAT with investigative and self-protective abilities.

If fuzzy is town, then town has the potential to have two guilties or clears going into day two. And I am VERY wary of having that much investigative power in a 9P setup.

um

so I come back from making bread to this

[ben dover123]

if so, yes. i would say i am voting the person i scumread because i don't townread them.

I don't get why you exactly SR clidd for this. I don't think this is a valid tell.


Is 2 investigative in a 9p like forbidden or smth? Didn't we talk about Isis being a destroyer of Normal Review Groups?

[ben dover123]

Also I'm not one for setup spec but I think the optimal play for you is not to reveal your abilities. That could cost us a lot of info right now.

[ben dover123]

Forbidden? I mean not explicitly, but you tell me. Do you think that a setup where town can have three or more results about alignment by day three is fair?

Now that you say it...

if fuzzy is a two shot and you have a investigative ability in a cycle then 3 clears out of 9 people with 2 PR's is insane. That clears more than half of the game or even catch a free scum.

[ben dover123]

although it doesn't make much sense to claim now on the scum!you scenario after Fuzzy's wagon lost a lot of gas.

^^
100% agree. The only real motivation in claiming a JOAT just to get Fuzzy hanged after his wagon lost gas is town. Not seeing scum!Cabd making this gambit here.

[ben dover123]

like I dunno how unbalanced setups can get with Isis being in the review group. 2181 had 1 weak investigative vanilla cop but a heck ton of protective PR's vs 3 goons but investigative are even more swingy then having a third of the game being protective PR's I think.

[ben dover123]

Going to flip a bunch of coins to decide between which part of my role to use.

Full random between self protect given two draws, generic investigative not specific here, and mystery third bonus option.

Is minimum JOAT abilities 3? Because in a 9p game you'll probably only use 2 or maybe 3 but you'll never use your abilities twice.

I should clarify further that the mystery third bonus option is ALSO stronger than fuzzy's.

My initial read here was "Fuzzy is mafia rolecop/vanilla cop/some investigative"

Oh boy.

[ben dover123]

Honestly this is confusing but I don't really think a JOAT with abilities that are far better than Fuzzy's 2-shot neo would be in the same game as a 2-shot neo? I think neo belongs in a setup where there are a decent amount of PR's because if there are too many vt's fuzzy can get a bunch of clears with his 2 shots. And I'm pretty sure at least 2 PR's because neo getting a clear in 9p is pretty big. A neo and 2 extra PR's probably have to be weak because that's like 3 clears in a 9p so...

[ben dover123]

Probably on the fence still, as Umlaut said Mini's tend to be more townsided now and I think Zulfy is still the better choice even with this claim from Cabd. I won't stand in the way if Fuzzy becomes the elim for today but the Zulfy wagon is where my interest stays.

[ben dover123]

Hey cabd what's your read on zulfy rn.

[ben dover123]

Thank you for answering. Now I think I understand your logic a bit better and why the drastic change happened, given that you supposedly had already drawn AI material from the slot, and the usual policy that I've seen is that it's not good to completely discard your initial read in case of replacement, I was having my doubts about if it made sense. I also really wanted a statement about your usual handling of replacements because I was under the impression that perhaps that one was being singled out in a way that was worrying me, but with that information now I can better assess your upcoming interactions with the two replaced slots. With that worry being out of the picture, I think can more comfortably rule out certain possibilities moving onwards.

Also, I imagine you're going to comment on the current claim discussion soon, and I would like to hear your opinion on Cabd and Fuzzy's claims. Especially because you're voting Clidd at the moment, since I don't think anyone is sold on that wagon yet and we have yet to decide EoD elimination.

re: claims, i'd prefer not to vote anyone claiming a PR on day one - i believe fuzzy's claim, cabd's feels a bit more opportunistic to me but both could be real, as much of a stretch as i feel that is. i just think it's incredibly terrible luck if we collectively pushed out two PRS on day one, like... unluckier than i'm willing to believe we are.

How is Cabd's claim opportunistic? Also can you explain to me how Fuzzy's play makes sense in the context of a PR? I still don't get that.

Maybe I am wrong but Cabd's claim seems like a bluff or a gambit atp . if that is true I dont know if that makes him town or scum. I would lean town as it would be a wierd gambit /bluff coming town. His action does not seem to match up with what one would expect from a player with that role. I guess he could be a JOAT but I have my doubts atm.

What were you expecting from Cabd?

[ben dover123]

Pedit
It seems to me he considered me scum or very possible scum ( assuming his role is true) which I took as such when he claimed.

To me it felt like he was likely town who thought I was might be fake claiming and wanted to see if putting pressure on me would make me fold if I was truly scum. Maybe I am misreading him right now but it seems to be the most likely scenario given his non vote on me.

uh my dude Cabd said he nullread you before your claim

what are you trying to get with this "gambit" crap. I don't think this is it.

[ben dover123]

Ben& Umlaut
maybe I misreading the situation however... I thought that if he had that role he would of voted me. It seems to me he considered me scum or very possible. I thought his counter-claim was to see if I would buckle or implode . I am not sure what he is - However, I seen town throw out fake claims to fluster players they thought could be scum. I think I should of called it a reaction test instead of a gambit, Terrible wording there . It just weird that he would put himself at risk and not vote me. It didn't make sense and it still doesn't. Claiming self-protection would be a perfect defense as it would cause scum to second guess killing him(assuming the claim is fake) As I said this felt like a reaction test .

like I don't see how cabd claiming as a reaction test is the first thing on your mind. That doesn't make sense period.

[ben dover123]

well, deadline in 8 hours so I'll probably miss it
see y'all D2

[ben dover123]

Game is over?

[ben dover123]

VOTE: sirius911

ok i did not see this and this is a amazing soft holy

[ben dover123]

was I just a filler n1 kill