Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

Silly question: Where is Mala?

I hope she is alright IRL, I'm hesitant to turbo push her for lurking again since it's known she is lurking for IRL reasons.

I hope so too. I only asked where she was and did not suggest a turbo push. This is sus.

I know you didn't suggest it, but I turbo pushed her for lurking before. What is this shade throw...

And how am I supposed to know that? I don’t remember playing with you. How exactly is this shade?

I said it was suspicious you implied I was going to push her for only asking where she was?

VOTE: Unvote

[MathBlade]

That sounds fake.

VOTE: Italiano

What sounds fake? My explanation? Lol smh. Are you scum?

The apology. I was in a hurry as I was getting ready for work.

Okay, so don’t apologize. Like what?

Your apology sounded fake. Often scum can’t genuinely apologize so I voted you.

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I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.

I think this is a stretch. I thought Scorpious was scum when I voted them.

Just because a wagon flips town doesn’t mean the wagon is bad as a whole.

I disagree. Scorpious was a fatigue elimination. For me that’s a poor excuse given we had time to not vote there. I’m convinced the other wagons didn’t push through because of scum interference. I wanna give you the benefit doubt here given that you’ve been working and whatnot, I know that can be stressful, but your responses to questions and comments have been less than ideal when I’m reading.

You were responding pretty flippantly when discussing said Scorpious wagon with Malcolm. Like if your town you should wanna cover every area of the gamestate. I’m trying to find a good reason why you’d wanna look elsewhere than vca on a major wagon in this game and I can’t find one.

Almost like I am not crafting responses to be ideal and instead being honest.

I don’t see how I am responding flippantly. I said I had already analyzed it and found it contradictory but I encouraged him to look. I am looking elsewhere because when I do it I get flipped town is scum which is a logical contradiction. When I look at why Andres did the kill I get contradictions. So I am trying to focus on play itself.

[MathBlade]

Math - what do you think of Kitty? Likely to be mafia or no?

I think with HEM yes, with Italiano no.

I work by teams right now.

For example I see you and a JV team and I don’t like how JV is sidelining this. I’d like if JV asked more questions.

I think HEM and Italiano or HEM and Kitty are most likely

But I can’t shake the deep wolf vibe I feel and I don’t know if either qualifies or I am just paranoid.

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For example I see you and a JV team and I don’t like how JV is sidelining this. I’d like if JV asked more questions.

How in the living fuck do you call me sidelining?

Because you are.

You’re doing flashy things but conversations are passing you by.

You’re not posting any thoughts regarding the current conversation.

Claiming backup vigilante is flashy.

Claiming a fake guilty on HEM is flashy.

But you’re almost universally TR’d. I want to see you use that in a protown way if you’re town.

[MathBlade]

I am kinda wait and see on Kitty. I don’t know how much is language or you’re scummy because scum.

[MathBlade]

I want to pretty much light this entire page on fire because of all the scumminess.

Roden’s reactions do not remind me of their towngame at all. They were much more calm and collected.
Malcolm’s post looks like he’s chaining up miselims and just feels ewww
JV’s intentionally making people look worse and at the same time wondering why the hell I find their laid back play scummy and then has the gumption to argue that I should just shut up and like it anyway
Then gamma doesn’t comment on any of it and complains…

Like all of this is just bad.

I am nauseous af and it’s critical role night but I wish everyone would flip but me.

[MathBlade]

I'm kinda out of it, I had a bit of a personal epiphany this evening

Which is?

[MathBlade]

i found out my dad's mom's brother passed away this morning.
i found myself thinking about old times

so not really in the mood 2night

I claim infinite shot good friend hugger activated on request.

[MathBlade]

Kinda surreal to read that I'm apparently coming off as much less calm and collected than usual when I had an actual emotional breakdown in my last town game.

The only town game I remember of yours is where I shot you N1 when I was essentially soloing it as scum. You seemed more casey and such.

[MathBlade]

Re your points in 3220 Kitty - I get that Scorpious/Jackson going for Koopa may have seemed weird but it'd have so illogical and baffling for two mafia to both go on the same role-claimed player bandwagon. It was clearly never going to pick up and I'm struggling to believe you wouldn't have been able to see that at all.

My general point is here that you pushed Scorpious in particular without ever considering whether their play was too illogical or lazy for a clever mafia player trying to get of trouble. If Scorpious is mafia then fine, but the fact they were town clearly indicates you here to an extent - I ultimately don't know your alignment and to me it looks like you strongly pushed two townies because you spotted some holes in their play and saw it as a convenient thing to do.

I also think it's quite possible you/Math could be a team if HEM doesn't come back as mafia. You're defending Math and Math is very hedgy on you in 3222 as well.

I wouldn't have thought town would have made that play either, which is what I was trying to tell you. You can't blame me for pushing someone for being outrageously scummy.

Again, mafia can make mistakes too. Yes I spotted some holes and pushed them but that's because I thought they were scum at the time.

I know I am sus if Math is scum, but I am happy locktowning Math RN.

Ewwww why? Don’t get me wrong I am town but why am I locktown?

[MathBlade]

The VC from top of this page is still current

Spoiler: have a cat

Catty shark do-do-do-do etc

[MathBlade]

I want to pretty much light this entire page on fire because of all the scumminess.

Roden’s reactions do not remind me of their towngame at all. They were much more calm and collected.
Malcolm’s post looks like he’s chaining up miselims and just feels ewww
JV’s intentionally making people look worse and at the same time wondering why the hell I find their laid back play scummy and then has the gumption to argue that I should just shut up and like it anyway
Then gamma doesn’t comment on any of it and complains…

Like all of this is just bad.

I am nauseous af and it’s critical role night but I wish everyone would flip but me.

If everyone is scummy to you maybe stop complaining about it and consider that your view on scumminess is possibly just plain wrong.

Lol no. My definition is not wrong. Thanks though.

Town players can be scummy. I just wish less were. You yourself admitted you were being scummy earlier.

I am really getting paranoid JV.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: JV

Someone want to explain why JV is town?

I see zero desire to solve, back off a claim to potentially miselim HEM when it picked up steam, vote sitting on a random person, deliberately makes people look scummy and discussed it with Italiano but then when I bring it up it’s like “I don’t recall”.

He’s just vote sitting Malcolm and then doesn’t explain why when asked multiple times.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

Town by virtue of assholery.

I asked JV because I have done the same thing before.

Made myself obvTown then other players were always “better kills”.

So doing my due diligence is smart.

[MathBlade]

I get that Scorpious/Jackson going for Koopa may have seemed weird but it'd have so illogical and baffling for two mafia to both go on the same role-claimed player bandwagon.

To clarify, I did that to make them look worse so they don't get shot rather than me particularly thinking they were scum but that also merged with my visceral repulsion of their play-style.

I am referring to here btw by intentionally scummy and you admitted it btw

[MathBlade]

I will respond to your other questions when I don’t want to throw my phone across the room but the jist is some people read players and others read gamestate and others read relationships. I am more the latter so any stilted relationship flags for me

[MathBlade]

I get that Scorpious/Jackson going for Koopa may have seemed weird but it'd have so illogical and baffling for two mafia to both go on the same role-claimed player bandwagon.

To clarify, I did that to make them look worse so they don't get shot rather than me particularly thinking they were scum but that also merged with my visceral repulsion of their play-style.

I am referring to here btw by intentionally scummy and you admitted it btw

That is not claiming to be intentionally scummy nor is it at all. I was intentionally faking my read on them for the benefit of the town, nowhere did I claim it was scummy to do so.

Intentionally faking reads = scummy.

[MathBlade]

You said you intentionally faked a read.

By definition that’s scummy.

Are we reading the same things here?

[MathBlade]

Jackson: “To clarify, I did that
[faked a scumread on Koopa] to make them look worse so they don't get shot rather than me particularly thinking they [Koopa] were scum but that also merged with my visceral repulsion of their play-style.”

Like?? [] are me adding context from a prior quote.

[MathBlade]

Like ..I don’t get it. Town can have good reasons to be scummy but not calling it scummy is gaslighty AF.

[MathBlade]

Jackson: “To clarify, I did that
[faked a scumread on Koopa] to make them look worse so they don't get shot rather than me particularly thinking they [Koopa] were scum but that also merged with my visceral repulsion of their play-style.”

Like?? [] are me adding context from a prior quote.

So not wanting a PR claim to die is scummy?

Of course not.

How you went about it was scummy though as it denies us the chance to read you as I have to figure out what is fake versus real. And if I find something is it “oh I had a good reason” every time?

[MathBlade]

I am going to step away because I am very tempted to tunnel JV over objections here. Like JV feels really slimy.

[MathBlade]

For me the team is now Kitty-HEM, with Math potentially as backup choice but I may have been reaching there on D3 with my reads. HEM was essentially able to ride out that turn but basically just came back without reading the game again to eliminate another townie.

show us your results

I tried Kitty D1 and D2 but nothing. In retrospect I imagine someone else perhaps took on the kill, I'd just reckoned at the time Kitty may have been more likely to carry it out than someone like yourself for example.

I tried Math D3 out of interest but nothing there either. Should have probably gone for you in retrospect but ah well, happy with eliminating either you or Kitty this turn at the moment unless I can somehow be convinced of an alternative wagon on someone who's received less attention.

Yeah this is incredibly suspicious.

I don’t see why you wouldn’t have waited or pushed for any remaining PRs to claim and use it like a check of sorts.

Let’s say you’re town here

Then you intentionally simple cop checked Kitty N1 (will have to see if that makes sense based on reads). There’s no way you believed Kitty was the target so you’d have to believe Kitty was the person doing the killing. So Kitty either A> Didnt do the kill or B > Is a PR

There was a death N1 and Andres flipped goon which would have been caught by your simple JK.

Why on N2 would you pick the same target again?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

It’s actually pretty difficult here to look at voting patterns alone. We need a scum narrative. I could paint almost anyone as scum based on votes.

[MathBlade]

Results please

A simple jailkeeper in a world where a gunsmith and tracker already exists and then claiming preemptively with a dash of shade. nope not suspicious at all.

'
We've had multiple preemptive claims this game. A claim when I'm on E-2 is not preemptive. I'll be busy at points today, how am I meant to guarantee I'm not automatically eliminated without a chance to claim or assert my case?

It very much is. You’d need to look at who is on and who is off. That was way too early for a claim if you’re towb

[MathBlade]

let me get this straight

you are a simple jailkeeper in a world where here had already been two investigatives
you had 2 days straight clear of KittyTacky, and they're still your top suspect
you think i'm scum because i hammered two townies, and i forced your claim — even though you preemptively claimed

am i misrepping you?

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

Because I think you're a deep wolf. Your play is way too squeaky clean to still be alive. Sitting off both mis-elim wagons and claiming to have defended them doesn't mean much if they still get voted out, it just means you don't take any blame for the wagon. And honestly I don't think it makes any sense from a town perspective to confidently town read either of them, there were plenty of reasons to doubt that they'd flip green. And besides that, town casing someone and putting actual effort into trying to stop a mis-elim are two completely different things. You did the former but I don't remember you actively trying to stop people from voting out your town reads.

Additionally, why would scum kill JV? I town read him too, but he offered anti-town utility with his role and had a generally abrasive tone/attitude that made people want to vote him. The NK just seems like a basic "kill the PRs" NK, but he wasn't confirmed and he didn't have any actual power. And the scum team clearly believed we had an actual Vig (hence why Andres tried to claim Vig instead of Doc), so why didn't they go PR hunting or at least try to kill consensus town reads?

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

Agreed on all of this. Like 100%

VOTE: Malcolm

[MathBlade]

Me + JV would have possibly been a shit fight for pages. I don’t think scum kill a backup vigilante here especially if Roden’s theory of a rolecop is true.

I can’t wrap my head around Malcolm possibly being town here.

[MathBlade]

My eyes are blurring together at the big walls of text. I will check this late tonight after work.

[MathBlade]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of no traitors existing.

I also feel like this is quite a townie post from Jackson here. Presuming Koopa is town if they are making incorrect assumptions about the gamestate mafia has no reason to correct them and inform us to a greater extent that this may be incorrect. Also - while it's not impossible, I'm not sure mafia are as likely to casually speculate in this thread on what roles will be in the game when they have more info than the rest of us.

JV pointed out Koopa may be wrong re how they perceive the role alignments available in the game, I don't think mafia does that and it gives him some town points from me. If Koopa is wrong on this, why correct them? If they're right, seems risky to try a misdirect for available roles in the game.

Jackson's claim seems reasonable, insisted this morning their post about Koopa potentially reading the roles then was very townie and incredibly unlikely to come from mafia given the circumstances. Will read back for reactions to see how that was pushed in a while.

Since towntells were mentioned, here I am pointing out on D1 that Jackson's claim was likely townie on the basis that they had pointed out incorrect assumptions being made by Koopa. There isn't much need for mafia to do this - it would have been beneficial for mafia to let doubt fester about Jackson's role in the game. But because I'm town, and because I thought Jackson's claim was fundamentally town, I pointed that out.

How does this relate at all to me asking you why Kitty twice?

[MathBlade]

The presumption on me being mafia here is essentially based on the idea that I've spent all game literally doing things that are the antithesis of being beneficial to the mafia because it makes me look more like a townie. I get that can be a helpful approach for a while but it only tends to work for so long. And when there are other roles in the game that can potentially reveal your identity anyway it would have been possible for all my work to be undone anyway if I'd been mafia playing that way. It doesn't make sense.

I know wagons alone do not tell a player's allegiance but fundamentally it is quite remarkable I'm currently under more suspicion than HEM who has now twice hammered townies and Kitty who continually and almost exclusively pushed players who turned out to be town.

?? That may be someone else’s point but that’s not mine.

Mine is that your PR play and day play makes you very likely scum.

I for the life of me, cannot figure out why you Jailkeep Kitty twice. It just seems like a fake claim but you don’t want to give clears.

Brb dinner

[MathBlade]

The presumption on me being mafia here is essentially based on the idea that I've spent all game literally doing things that are the antithesis of being beneficial to the mafia because it makes me look more like a townie. I get that can be a helpful approach for a while but it only tends to work for so long. And when there are other roles in the game that can potentially reveal your identity anyway it would have been possible for all my work to be undone anyway if I'd been mafia playing that way. It doesn't make sense.

I know wagons alone do not tell a player's allegiance but fundamentally it is quite remarkable I'm currently under more suspicion than HEM who has now twice hammered townies and Kitty who continually and almost exclusively pushed players who turned out to be town.

I agree. Kitty and HEM are both someone that I am keeping an eye on.

I just don’t understand your thoughts here at all.

[MathBlade]

Like on a game play level you’ve been tunneling Kitty for what 2 days now I think? You’ve checked Kitty and found she did not kill or is a mafia PR and kept doing that then a second time for what? Like I don’t see where your brain is saying from point A to “omg tunnel Kitty”

[MathBlade]

Also - as to why I revealed my role, I was on E-2 and knew I was going to be inactive for a good 5/6 hours today because I was busy. I've seen wagons pushed through before more quickly than expected and I was wary that could potentially happen here when it's almost certain there will be two scum on said wagon because this is their best chance to get it down to 3v2.

It's also D3 now and we're getting towards the endgame - my perspective here is that we need to know as many townies as possible in order to try and win the game, and it's better you now know my role.

This feels really premeditated. Like you always were going to claim today.

Like this feels slimy.

[MathBlade]

Also - without wanting to make myself sound like an idiot, I'm not necessarily that good at this game and wouldn't really feel confident claiming a role so early on if I did not have one - I am inherently a very risk-averse player and would almost inevitably not pursue such a gambit until I was on the verge of going out. If I'm mafia I would still have a teammate who based on gameplay would still have a chance of winning; if I'm lying, you can see there's nobody blatantly pushing me here who is likely to be my teammate as some sort of bold attempt at a feint.

Even my checks are inherently honest when you think about it given my suspicions and reads so far. I continue to suspect Kitty given my reads on them so far that they are scum and did not make the kills; why would I admit that I jailed Kitty TWICE without success if I was scum wanting to paint them as being likely mafia? It wouldn't make any sense.

This is why I don’t believe you’re town either.

It doesn’t make sense as either alignment and Occam’s Razor is scum fake claim giving as little info as possible (mainly Kitty probably green if you flip red) than anything else.

You’re making big long arguments over why you’re town but not investing nearly the same effort into who scum is.

[MathBlade]

Only issue with a Kitty/Math team would be they'd have to have been incredibly lucky with their kill choices to avoid being jailed.

This feels like TMI that scum are low power or just blatant stretch/lie.

I literally argued that Kitty quite easily could just be scum PR and the jailkeep doesn’t work.

You read the post then apparently just ignored it?

I mean granted I am not scum but we’ve only seen Andres flip goon.

If you’re town surely scum have something to counteract the claims here right?

I feel like you’re trying to ride the PR coast train versus thinking about what you’re saying.

[MathBlade]

Math - what do you think of Kitty? Likely to be mafia or no?

I think with HEM yes, with Italiano no.

I work by teams right now.

For example I see you and a JV team and I don’t like how JV is sidelining this. I’d like if JV asked more questions.

I think HEM and Italiano or HEM and Kitty are most likely

But I can’t shake the deep wolf vibe I feel and I don’t know if either qualifies or I am just paranoid.

Math - where are you on this? You stated you thought HEM/Kitty was a possibility if Italiano was not scum. JV, your other suspect, is now gone, and HEM/Kitty have been caught sitting on yet another town bandwagon with HEM hammering for the second time. Does HEM/Kitty not look more viable to you in that regard?

HEM/Kitty does look viable to me. I just think that you’re scum more than that.

[MathBlade]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

Here is Italiano - a confirmed townie - TR'ing me for my read of them. They are aware this could be mafia trying to buy credibility, but point out there was generally little self-gain in it for me as well - it was a genuine read on my part because I consistently said the Scorpious wagon was worth looking at.

Your point? JV had a naked unexplained vote on you all day.

[MathBlade]

math

i sheep u on mt

can u sheep me on HEM tm

pls

Depends on what MT flips and how they flip.

I would say MT green makes HEM and Kitty even more likely.

[MathBlade]

I would say MT red makes HEM probably green. Looking at a TVS or SVT for HEM/Kitty and MT

[MathBlade]

Apologise if a lot of my above posts read like a big long and incoherent rant but I think it's important town go back and read through my ISO and that of the players who are accusing me/who I'm accusing here. Ultimately:

- I TR'd Jackson before their claim
- I pointed out Scorpious' play wasn't conductive to mafia
- I made a strong case for why Italiano was town
- HEM has now opportunistically hammered two townies
- Kitty has consistently SR'd townies while ignoring reasons they were town
- I am frankly not good enough to fakeclaim in this situation
- I am not good enough to deep wolf here and continually stay of town bandwagons to clear myself

This reads more like begging not to elim you than a genuine push.

Your posts are coherent but they seem more desperate not me.

[MathBlade]

Also, the argument I've been deep wolfing by TR'ing eliminated townies such as Scorpious and Italiano also doesn't work for a couple more reasons.

My stances were consistent on both players. I expressed some suspicion on Italiano but then very much TR'd them after an ISO check. It's not like I had to do a major reversal of my previous stance. Same for Scorpious: I quizzed them on contradictions in their posts but identified that their playstyle was fundamentally town.

It's not as if either of the two were preordained eliminations either. I've suspected HEM and Kitty who have also been prime suspects. I have voted for both at various points. I've also expressed suspicion in Math. Some of them are necessarily town irrespective of my alignment. Roden's argument I am deep wolfing is predicated on the idea I have been incredibly, incredibly lucky (or unlucky, I guess) with my town townreads constantly being eliminated at the expense of townies I've suspected.

And to add to that - we know Andre was scum and that Andre was incredibly inactive. One scum can sit back and play a deep wolf/town style to a greater degree but I'm not sure this is recommended when one player is inactive - at some point scum ideally need to assert some control of the game.

It’s long been a gripe of players on the site that scum can lurk and win.
Why do you think about what is recommended versus not for scum?

Like I logically comprehend your posts but I don’t understand them.

I feel like brain sausage

[MathBlade]

I think you're likely to be today's elim, so I'll just work with you as if you're town mmkay but you have to assume I'm town here otherwise it doesn't work

talk to me about Kitty and Math

I don’t like you outright assuming this.

I think MT is the smart elim right now but that assumption is icky

[MathBlade]

Kitty I share the same read as you do in as much as they're willing to hide behind a fatalistic will that town will never do X. He has been proven wrong with Scorpious but he made the same excuse as Italiano. I can understand that read.
Math, I've been waiting for them to turn online and dominate the game because that's how i experienced them in the large normal, but they never really read the thread. Although, I sympathize because I haven't done that myself.

You mean how I said I wouldn’t do that as I have been putting in lots of OT at work?

You’re literally just making up shit now.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

My mood is all y’all can die. I am the serial killer (joke)

[MathBlade]

Can’t get lower than zero clears.

I wish I was clear but that’s not how any of this works.

Gamma Roden Who would you shoot if you were one shot dayvigs?

[MathBlade]

What's fucking with me is that we basically get to unleash three scum-finding PRs all at once on Night 1, yet scum don't have a Roleblocker. In the hands of a less claim-happy town, I don't see how that doesn't steamroll scum.

This is where I am at. I just don’t think Malcolm fits. While it’s technically possible scum have an RB it’s likely they don’t. So I don’t see how simple JK, lazy tracker, odd night gunsmith works on N1.

If scum use a goon to do the kill (as they probably should) then they risk having the killer jailkept.
Odd night gunsmith gets a guilty on the goon and likely others
Lazy tracker shuts off when one scum is caught

Yeah I can’t even fit ascetic or two doctors because ascetics get guiltied by lack of result for Gs / tracker and doctors would be guiltied by tracker unless they visited PR claims.

Like I think Malcolm needs to be the elim and can’t survive until elo.

[MathBlade]

thinking about it, there's no real value in flipping Malcolm today because if we give him another night, either mafia confirms it for us, or we potentially get a block (if mafia aren't prs)

VOTE: Malakittens

I am kinda thinking HEM/Malcolm.

Scum seem to be desperate here

HEM is throwing on the wall practically anything that sticks.

Malcolm votes Kitty despite pushing HEM repeatedly.

[MathBlade]

Kitty I share the same read as you do in as much as they're willing to hide behind a fatalistic will that town will never do X. He has been proven wrong with Scorpious but he made the same excuse as Italiano. I can understand that read.
Math, I've been waiting for them to turn online and dominate the game because that's how i experienced them in the large normal, but they never really read the thread. Although, I sympathize because I haven't done that myself.

You mean how I said I wouldn’t do that as I have been putting in lots of OT at work?

You’re literally just making up shit now.

making what up?

That I am not as domineering/dominating as before. As I said I have RL and can’t be that hyperposter. Roden has seen how I wall post as scum so my speed and lack there of is 100% NAI.

[MathBlade]

what's your read on Malakittens, Math?

Town by virtue of she’s not dead and no one susses her when sus on her is easy to manufacture.

[MathBlade]

what's your scum case on me, Math?

I’ve scumread you the entire game.

My scumcase on you is you’re making small little things to piss people off

I think you know Malcolm isn’t a miselim and you’re elim shopping getting vibes for tomorrow.

You’ve been doing small little things to piss me off to keep me off my game.

It’s like that nagging pin at the back of your brain you just sorta feel it.

(And yes I thought Malcolm and HEM was TVS/SVT I changed my mind with just how much they scumread each other yet don’t push each other)

[MathBlade]

so am i making it up if it's real and observable? did i say you were scum for it, or did your guilty mind just played madlibs?

The shade is what is made up. You’re reaching for anything to survive.

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Town by virtue of she’s not dead and no one susses her when sus on her is easy to manufacture.

Why is it no Scum by virtue of she's not dead and no one susses her when sus on her is easy to manufacture?

You’re literally just making up shit now.

You just took my explanation and added a why lmfao. I think it’s self explanatory.

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My scumcase on you is you’re making small little things to piss people off

right. the best scum strategy in the history of mafia.

It actually is one of the better ones.

It’s one I have used quite frequently. People expect scum to cooperate and blend in. Just a bit of disagreement seems “natural” then pocket towards bad results.

The more you post 0 level shit the more tempted I am to run you into the ground Malcolm mech spec be damned but that might be what you and Malcolm want.

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it's not self-explanatory. tell us why you eliminated that possibility.

I mean it explains itself.

Earlier I couldn’t tell if the Ate was town or scum.
Then no one gives a hard push on Mala
Unlike the game she was scum she got sussed in all directions
There’s none of that here.

This means that she’s probably not scum.

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You’ve been doing small little things to piss me off to keep me off my game.

what have i done that has kept you off your game? haters will say you're just making this up.

This is also self explanatory. I have explained how I play the game and form reads in thread, you don’t let me do that. If I list all the ways you’ve annoyed me the game turns toxic but let’s just say I am annoyed and leave that there.

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i asked for one in D1 and you said you haven't read yet.
and now you are saying you had one all along.

you have no scum case.

That’s not what I said.

I said I have suspected you all game which is correct. I suspected you early D1 fact. I suspect you now fact. Ergo I have been scumreading you all game. Fact.

Why are you deliberatingly saying I don’t have a case?

I am not really a “case” person but you’re pissing me off.

I just don’t get the strategy here.

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I've certainly not spotted any crumbing but maybe just very subtle.

To be fair though. I would not expect a townie to point it out..

Not saying either way on you just saying what I did.

This is why I suspect Malcolm. He highlighted a crumb post and called it a role claim.

This doesn’t do any good when scum could have just missed it.

Instead we have a four alarm fire going “look here”.

Can you go more in depth on the Malcolm read?

I kinda feel HEM Malcolm and Italiano are all scum but they don’t all fit together.

You mean like here? I don’t have time to find the rest but a simple iSO proves what I am saying true.

C’mon dude

I gotta go but I think Gamma/Roden/Mala need to come together and we pick an elim in HEM/Malcolm and I think we’re golden.

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There's no strategy. You're just scum trying to push little low-hanging fruit me hoping people will sheep you.

"You're not a case person" but in that other game, you went to town on DkKoba and and in that large you have bullied the entire playerlist to bend to your will.

And I have scum games where I have been the vocal leader as well. You’re literally going “math isn’t being loud” when I said I wouldn’t be. Then you’re voting Malcolm yet expending energy on me.

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So where's your case on me then?

As I said I have to go.

I gave a short case earlier. I am not a case dude.

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i'm 50/50 on malcolm right now because while that claim is sus, he backed down off my slot and pushed you instead and i think that's out of nowhere and unstrategic for scum to do when humaneatingmonkey is sitting right there being the #1 scapegoat.

This is actually a really good point...

Why the hell do we have a Simple Jailkeeper and two investigatives then? I mean yeah most of the PRs claimed on Day 1 but still, I don't think the mod predicted that during set up. Maybe scum have two PRs? A Rolecop and something weak to avoid the Simple check? The Lazy Tracker would help avoid swing here maybe.

Been ruminating on this more and I can’t figure out what two PRs work.

Maybe a named scum? Is that normal?

Anything that can be tracked is left open for guilty on N1.

Bulletproof scum would work but without a vig that’s trolly on a setup already punishing to scum.

So like ??? *confusedi

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So here’s where I am at.

With 7 players alive and 2 scum then we have to hit a scum today or tomorrow.

I think all two scum are in {Malcolm, HEM, Kitty, and a super long shot Mala} so that would be my elim pool.

I don’t think Roden or Gamma are scum.

I am okay with Mala being in elo because she will have to post something and be more active and explain herself.

I am not okay with Malcolm being in elo because more than likely scum have 2 PRs or Malcolm is scum. I don’t see this passing normal review passes this otherwise. This means Malcolm is essentially a VT. I think it’s also extremely unlikely scum kill Malcom if town. So if Malcolm town then Malcolm isn’t likely shot. If Malcolm scum then it’s even more unlikely Malcolm gets shot.

So we’d be looking at a policy elim in elo or just accepting it. This means if we don’t hit scum today Malcolm becomes almost policy, and I really really hate policy at elo.

On the other hand taking into account Malcolm possibly being town then HEM and Kitty both look atrocious.

Mala is more if it’s a Malcolm Kitty scenario which is weird or I am missing something huge as I know she’s going through stuff but she needs to communicate what she is lost on.

I think we should start consolidating in {Malcolm/HEM/Kitty} and say who we don’t want in elo in case they’re town

I think we have a good town block here in me Gamma and Roden and maaaaybe Mala.

So I am suggesting Malcolm I think is that person for me but HEM/Kitty are acceptable too if the both of you want there.

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The more I think about it with the wagons split today and how it’s going I think we need to know if Malcolm is town or scum. I don’t see how he is town with that claim and those actions but I am extremely scared that if we don’t elim him now I will tunnel him tomorrow. Then if Malcolm is town we lose turning today into an elo. Or we can elim Malcolm who probably flips scum and if not then we have the flexibility in elo to sort properly.

VOTE: Malcolm

Can I get a vibe check here?

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So here’s where I am at.

With 7 players alive and 2 scum then we have to hit a scum today or tomorrow.

I think all two scum are in {Malcolm, HEM, Kitty, and a super long shot Mala} so that would be my elim pool.

I don’t think Roden or Gamma are scum.

I am okay with Mala being in elo because she will have to post something and be more active and explain herself.

I am not okay with Malcolm being in elo because more than likely scum have 2 PRs or Malcolm is scum. I don’t see this passing normal review passes this otherwise. This means Malcolm is essentially a VT. I think it’s also extremely unlikely scum kill Malcom if town. So if Malcolm town then Malcolm isn’t likely shot. If Malcolm scum then it’s even more unlikely Malcolm gets shot.

So we’d be looking at a policy elim in elo or just accepting it. This means if we don’t hit scum today Malcolm becomes almost policy, and I really really hate policy at elo.

On the other hand taking into account Malcolm possibly being town then HEM and Kitty both look atrocious.

Mala is more if it’s a Malcolm Kitty scenario which is weird or I am missing something huge as I know she’s going through stuff but she needs to communicate what she is lost on.

I think we should start consolidating in {Malcolm/HEM/Kitty} and say who we don’t want in elo in case they’re town

I think we have a good town block here in me Gamma and Roden and maaaaybe Mala.

So I am suggesting Malcolm I think is that person for me but HEM/Kitty are acceptable too if the both of you want there.

The more I think about it with the wagons split today and how it’s going I think we need to know if Malcolm is town or scum. I don’t see how he is town with that claim and those actions but I am extremely scared that if we don’t elim him now I will tunnel him tomorrow. Then if Malcolm is town we lose turning today into an elo. Or we can elim Malcolm who probably flips scum and if not then we have the flexibility in elo to sort properly.

VOTE: Malcolm

Can I get a vibe check here?

@Gamma

I think this got lost in Malcolm’s/Kitty’s posting. Can you please respond?

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I feel like the flipped PRs + malcolm could exist with 1 scum PR if it's notably powerful
I feel like scum is in kitty/malcolm + 1 other (thinking either HEM or mala atp), so I would be okay voting out either
I just hope we can get it right today

I am not sure on that first sentence.

Can you give me an example of the PR you’d expect?

Maybe you have an idea where I don’t?

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The main issue I have is if Malcolm is town and scum don’t have two PRs then

Town would have on N1 a gunsmith that would be able to guilty 2/3rds if not 3/3rds of the game
A simple Jailkeeper that could stop the kill 2/3rds of the time with scum likely sending a goon to do the kill if all they have is one uber PR
Then a lazy tracker than can guilty in the same way a jailkeeper can and if it hits the uber PR then that Uber PR has to have a reason.

I’d have to calculate the odds but the odds of all three not getting a guilty on N1 is extremely low.

We know it’s unlikely scum have a blocker.

An ascetic would be a guilty.

Like help?

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The main issue I have is if Malcolm is town and scum don’t have two PRs then

Town would have on N1 a gunsmith that would be able to guilty 2/3rds if not 3/3rds of the game
A simple Jailkeeper that could stop the kill 2/3rds of the time with scum likely sending a goon to do the kill if all they have is one uber PR
Then a lazy tracker than can guilty in the same way a jailkeeper can and if it hits the uber PR then that Uber PR has to have a reason.

I’d have to calculate the odds but the odds of all three not getting a guilty on N1 is extremely low.

We know it’s unlikely scum have a blocker.

An ascetic would be a guilty.

Like help?

okay yeah this puts it in a different way that I think is more valid, basically a 1 PR team would be smashed by town's PRs if malcolm is town, and with 2 PRs malcolm is essentially useless. The issue there is useless at night doesn't make him a good vote-off. I'd rather hit scum. So like, do you have a particular reason why kitty is town by play?

No I don’t have a good reason Kitty is town by play. As I said I would be willing to consolidate there but I just can’t think of a way Malcolm is town.

It’s more than just useless at night. It’s useless at night if town. It’s because of the probability above the claim is just so bad Malcolm is very likely scum. I think it’s much more likely that Malcolm is scum who tried to keep reads/spew to a minimum with the PR claim rather than the PR actually existing.

My concern with going with Kitty or HEM (who are more likely scum by play) is that if either flip town then Malcolm becomes almost a forced elim at elo.

In other words, if Malcolm is town and this is somehow the setup that passed review, I’d want to know now and use that to sort between HEM and Kitty (where I think scum are by play) versus the contrast of picking wrong in those two today then between Malcolm and the other tomorrow and there I feel we would have to pick Malcolm as town and if Malcolm is town that’s a loss.

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I just think we have to be okay with that risk to elim elsewhere.

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If we're thinking Mala is safe, then the game is essentially a lock, but I don't feel 100% about that, especially after what I pointed out very recently.

I agree with this thought. I am not sold on Mala town but you Me and Roden is a pretty good town block.

Mainly I think with the fact Malcolm hasn’t been turbo yeeted means Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want to elim Malcolm for some reason.

Like it’s weird.

Is there a reason you townread Malcolm Gamma?

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Roden I would love you to answer my prior thoughts about elimming Malcolm as well please.

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If we're thinking Mala is safe, then the game is essentially a lock, but I don't feel 100% about that, especially after what I pointed out very recently.

I agree with this thought. I am not sold on Mala town but you Me and Roden is a pretty good town block.

Mainly I think with the fact Malcolm hasn’t been turbo yeeted means Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want to elim Malcolm for some reason.

Like it’s weird.

Is there a reason you townread Malcolm Gamma?

Why would Malcolm have been turbo yeeted as town?

Malcolm would be turbo yeeted as town because my PoE is HEM/Malcolm/Kitty.
There hasn’t been a hammer and I have been the second vote for a while and no movements towards that.
So it’s more likely Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want him elimmed.

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I'd rather vote Malcolm, yes. I don't see much resistance to his elim though, which means if he's scum then he's getting bussed.

I think...maybe he's a Mafia Doctor, and that's why scum didn't fish there. So that he could claim a protective role later if necessary. It would also imply to the scum team that town have a Vig, so it would give multiple reasons for them to Vig hunt early on. It would also escape a guilty from the Gunsmith.

I thought about this but then there’s a few problems:

1) Doctor gets guiltied by the tracker.
2) Doctor who never saves a kill and never dies ends up being policy at some point.

So then the one PR would be a doctor and doesn’t help find the PRs claimed either.

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Done all I can here, happy to self-hammer if someone moves me to E-1. Kitty should go next day though since I'll come back town. Remember Kitty all game voted on the basis of perceived anti-town play and then sat on a player with a role (even if it's been an entirely ineffectual one).

Why have you “done all you can here?”. Who do you think is scum with Kitty?

And oh yeah I pretty much yeet a doc claim because follow the cop is bad and there doesn’t seem to be a roleblocker.

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Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

I don’t think your plan of self hammer demonstrates anything.

If any player offered to hammer themselves was town then scum would do it.

Scum also commonly hammer themselves before a flip to cut conversation.

I have a work meeting and left off here but I don’t find it a coincidence posting sped up when I asked people to talk Malcolm.

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Mala, can we talk? I need your perspective on something.

?

From what I understand, you town read me and scum read HEM. Do you think this is similar to Control and that I'm just pocketed here?

I'd also like for Mala to respond to this.

Can you give a brief summary of this game? It’s obviously important to you. What similarities are you asking about?

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Roden is transparently doing all they can here to clear Kitty, who is about to be heavily involved in a townie wagon for the third time in the game, this time for an identical reason to the exact logic they gave for their decision to eliminating Italiano still being a sensible one.

Are you talking about this post?

I feel like Kitty has been getting heat all game, but it never really seemed like they were in danger of getting eliminated.

Because this is me openly wondering why Kitty doesn't ever have the momentum to get wagon'd. I actually don't understand why they haven't been in any real danger this game. I went back and dug through Koopa's ISO since I remember they had a lot to say about Kitty, and though they went back and forth on their read before ending up with a town read there, when they did suspect Kitty there still wasn't much momentum there.

If you think Kitty is scum then why has there been so little pressure there overall? If I'm partnered with Kitty then why isn't anyone else seeing it? Do you think I'm just easily snowing HEM Math Gamma and Mala?

Alright, let's try something.

VOTE: Kitty

I really think Malcolm is ultimately necessary here. If Gamma agrees on Kitty, I will go Kitty for consensus but you moving to Kitty is odd here. I am having a hard time figuring out how you can agree with me on the mechanics then don’t want to follow through.

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VOTE: Unvote

I don’t like that naked vote. To be clear I think Malcom should be the elim but that naked vote makes me scared

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Pretty sure the vig is a red herring rn

Agreed. Vigs are conf town in innos. This game already has a lot of power. I doubt a vig is here.

Roden and Gamma I ask again, do you TR Malcolm?

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Pretty sure the vig is a red herring rn

Agreed. Vigs are conf town in innos. This game already has a lot of power. I doubt a vig is here.

Roden and Gamma I ask again, do you TR Malcolm?

I think this post could be a town spew:

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Scum typically try to anti-spew or cause WIFOM if they're going to die. Additionally, scum casing me while moments away from death seems a little pointless. It also feels like there's a bit too much consensus in voting out Malcolm?

On the other hand, he slowed his activity quite a bit when I voted Kitty. That feels really fucking off.

Where I am at is one of two possibilities:
A> Malcolm is scum with a poor fake claim. Hem has been hard defending and Mala soft defending and you not willing to vote Malcolm. Everyone else has been okay with a Malcolm Elim. That’s what I would expect if HEM or Mala or you are partners. The fact Malcolm isn’t hammered demonstrates there isn’t consensus.

The post you linked is not townspew imho. It’s desperation. I even pointed out the flaws in that later. I think Malcolm just expected everyone to go “not Malcolm”.

Or B> Malcolm is town. Like how does this work at all? I can’t make this fit. Malcolm has been on the sidelines (vote wise) most of the game and that is pretty typical of scum. Day one we couldn’t elim anyone hardly. Malcolm was on the Andres wagon (which matches scum possibly bussing theory I had)

Mainly I am at the point of trying to shove a square peg in a round hole here.

I think Malcolm has to be the elim today and that’s a pretty weak argument for a no. Imho if you don’t want to elim Malcolm then I need more to assuage these doubts. Especially because if I put my vote back on Malcolm they’ve threatened to end the day which is very scummy. Consider me spiritually there though.

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VOTE: Malcolm

Get in. We’re flipping Malcolm.

Malcolm if you’re town, but I don’t think you are, let’s chat post game.

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Yup. I feel this.

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Gonna be pretty busy with work, but I think Kitty is more likely scum than Gamma.

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I am thinking it’s one of two possible teams here.

But I kinda want scum to force their hand.

Fake votal:

Gamma - Kitty (1)

The idea is if you get fake hammered you have to vote first so hopefully scum have to vote first
OR in the case we are universally wrong then that Townie has a chance to vote their scumread and why.

As a mostly universal TR it shouldn’t be me voting because then everyone will necessarily sheep me.

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This is…not what I expected.

Going to remain quiet a bit longer but this is…interesting.

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what the fawk

Care to elaborate?

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i guess i need to start caring eh??

i just won a game at eol for town

after not caring

I’d like you to care so I can hopefully eliminate the you scum lurker case.

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or you can just trust me

It’s elo. Trust but verify is the name of the game.

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Dw I won’t be eliminated

I won’t let it happen

?? *confused*

It’s not about whether you’d be elimmed. It’s whether you’d be leading me astray.

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You realize you saying that makes me more paranoid right?

I want you to generate content to help me because then in essence I decide the game.

Not make me worried I am being setup to fail.

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Do you think Gamma is bussing with HEM or with Kitty?

Should I just consider you fake voting Gamma then?

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Idk about the partner

Maybe hem??

If kittt is scum that means she didn’t do the kill x2 nights in order not to stop the kill

Idk man

I think if Gamma is scum then Gamma doing the kill makes sense.

Or Kitty is some low powered PR so the kill goes through.

I agree the second flip would be helpful to know but I think mainly it’s whether scum are resigned to losing someone which means Gamma/HEM cross bus

Or it’s Gamma/Kitty or Kitty/HEM.

So I kinda want all three of those to fake vote then we can respond and see what might be likely from there.

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I think Kitty and Gamma is TvS/SvT.

Does anyone disagree?

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Okay since everyone has posted and I think Kitty/Gamma has at least one scum and no one objected saying TvT

Then I fake vote and Mala makes me a double voter so Kitty is fake hammered I think if I remember fake votes right.

Kitty, please real vote in 24 hours.

(expired on 2022-05-12 09:40:00)

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VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I think this wins.

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Now to see if Kitty + Gamma or Gamma + Mala.

That quick hammer is sus though.

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Are you scum?

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So then it’s Gamma + Mala. Thank goodness.

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Gg.

No redactions <3

Yeah only a rolecop against 3 possible guilties N1 is a bit much.

Hugs to Mala. Sorry.

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Thank you Day one was really nerve wracking.

It was really infuriating no one wanted to town lead (well besides koopa which woulda been bad for us) and Scorpious was literally so any elim happened. Like I suspected FL suspected me (as in the PT) but if I got him to elim a scum or two it’d be fine.

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Quite honestly if Jackson continued their fake claim I think town just wins.

I knew JV was lying due to the rolecop but then HEM flips and you’d know that scum wouldn’t be triple VTs then you just claim VT / named PR and start aiming at who dies. You weren’t a VT and if town was more present I don’t think I push that bad logic.

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Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

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Well played Koba. So glad no one listened to you when you died. Kinda going all over the place hurt your case.

If we didn’t get Scorpious I was just going to ignore you and paint you as the enby who claimed wolf. I was really hoping it didn’t come to that.

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Who cried wolf*

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eh andres would have went over ngl

Yeah possibly but Andres and I together didn’t have longevity anyway.

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Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

No, I don't think that this setup had too much TPR.
But it had too much ITPR.
2 investigative roles + 1 gated Jailkeeper is way too much investigative and roleblocking power. In the worst case you get full guilties(against every single mafia).

This.

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Assume VT elimmed D1 as that’s average.
PR won’t check itself or dead VT say 11 possible slots to check.

Gunsmith on N1 has 3/11 odds of guilty.
Lazy tracker on N1 has 2/11 odds of guilty.
Because scum will send goon to do kill rather than rolecop that’s 2/11 odds of guilty.

Odds of not getting a guilty is 8/11,9/11,9/11 for each.

Odds of no one getting a guilty is 48%

So average odds a check will have a guilty on N1 at 52%

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So yes NRG balancing against average should be giving scum a defense here of some kind.

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Irl I am allergic to cats.

I live with roommates with three cats.

My body is scum claiming.

Scritches to all cats.

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Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

I believe your conception of normal balance is off.

Agree to disagree.

This (minus the micro) is the second or third game in a row that town also agrees there’s too much TPR/ITPR however you want to handle that.

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Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

No, I don't think that this setup had too much TPR.
But it had too much ITPR.
2 investigative roles + 1 gated Jailkeeper is way too much investigative and roleblocking power. In the worst case you get full guilties(against every single mafia).

@RC there you go.

This needs the gunsmith even night and lazy tracker odd night and maybe that works. Or if neither of those remove the simple JK.

All together leads to > 50% odds of guilty which needs a defense.

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I sim this setup as sub 50% odds of a town win. I can't really help beyond that.

Then imho your sim is flawed.

A n1 guilty is the expected result in this scenario and with that town’s more often than not win unless it’s prepared for.

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The only reason this was close is because town imploded and mass claimed.

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This game gives scum an incredible amount of outplay potential inherent to gunsmith setups. Frankly i would not have passed this because i think it's too easy for scum. If the knowledge is publicly available that scum win 60% of normal games and people still want to complain about setups like this I'm not quite sure what solution you want exactly. Barring making any claim about objectivity of balance, what winrate do you want to see for scum empirically, 70%?

The win rates for scum go up the more PRs added.

It’s counter intuitive but VTs check out here.

I will respond to what you have earlier.

There’s only so much PR that should exist and shouldn’t need good scum like you or me to have a chance.

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I sim this setup as sub 50% odds of a town win. I can't really help beyond that.

Then imho your sim is flawed.

A n1 guilty is the expected result in this scenario and with that town’s more often than not win unless it’s prepared for.

only the tracker and the jk could get guilties n1
a jk guilty is inconclusive and a tracker guilty is highly unlikely

Gunsmith can get guilty N1.

If gunsmith hadn’t claimed and didn’t know what was safe and try the majority of scum safe claims jk/vig enabler
They die
The VTs can’t claim rolecop because then soon as buddy dies they do.

Gunsmith is a 100% cop

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koopashell died last night. He was a

Town Odd-night Gunsmith

.

It is now Day 2!

Spoiler: good morning!

@Gamma Nope odd night

Even night would have been better

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I think scum that have no coherence of strategy, don't attempt to play to outs, lie down and die because GS guilty instead of claiming, don't have any initiative to push things themselves should lose. I think that town who don't do this kind of stuff lose. I don't think the execution requirements as scum should be lower than as town. Balancing around scum who flail and lurk and town who actively attempt to solve and make good night actions is... not my vision of how games should be balanced.

Scum shouldn’t be forced to a certain playstyle.

My scum playstyle is towns miselim each other.

I play to outs and am good scum

But taking away all the outs and saying “be good” is not the answer

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There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

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I don't think so because as I pointed out i believe that as odd night the game is already weighted for scum not town. Lazy tracker is going to do nothing relevant to town wincon most games. Jailkeeper being simple gives scum a lot of leeway in how to approach the game in general.

Wdym you have no outs. Claim a role with a gun. Setup spec. Push that scum has a doc. Do the things that increase your wr instead of being a passive participant in the setup.

There is no role that can be claimed
JK << gets counter claimed
Cop << won’t be in a setup with a gs
Rolecop << scum has it
Vig / vig enabler << doesn’t work in a normal (does in theme)

Once a VT gets guiltied by a GS they’re on a timer of how fast they die

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There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

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Anything with vig on it is IC + vig

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Backup vig is one of those claims so out there it just isn’t scum and can’t be

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Backup gunsmith
Literally any role with cop in the name if the rolecop hasn't flipped
Vig claim can buy time if late enough

Hell if you get counter claimed by the JK now the two actual town power roles are both out of the game and your winrate is extremely high so

Backup gunsmith gets CC’d by the backup vig
Any role with cop in it wouldn’t pass review with a gunsmith
Vig claim again proves my point about time

Once a GS check happens it’s about stopping bleeding versus manipulating.

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There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

No two kills on a given night.

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Cop gunsmith is passable and I've played and won it as scum back when i was super new so I'm not sure what you're thinking of there

Cop gunsmith shouldn’t pass review

Congrats on winning it.

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There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

No two kills on a given night.

Be creative. That's why I suggested novice vig, it works for D2. Then you can claim roleblocked. Just do something, yeah? And simple Jailkeeper is probably inclined to buy a Roleblocker existing with simple being there to prevent conflicts!

There’s limits to creativity though.

Stop making townsided broken setups and relying on scum to “be creative” is a much better solution.

Reduce power and town has to get better

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And not relying*

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I didn’t say NO power.

I said reduce it.

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This trend of using informed or just stacking town and asking scum to be creative has to stop imho.

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I think your claim that nerfing town power would make town play better is one that could use extraordinary evidence given that it is an extraordinary claim

It’s not really that extraordinary though.

The more people are forced to engage with a problem the more they have to get better.

Mountainous will have a lower win rate until people adjust.

Similarly too much TPR leaves people disengaged and a few key players “decide” and others are sidelined then when key players die it’s a vaccuum.

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GG, scum played well. I really wish people had actually talked to me when I said "I think I'm pocketed" instead of just...ignoring me. I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him (and tbh had it been literally anyone else he would've been flash elim'd right there), but the early interactions with Leaf just kinda set it up for me to sit in HEM's pocket.

Kinda agree that town had too much power unleashed on Day 1, but it didn't really matter since they all died one after the other before they could do much, and it got one of the PRs voted out since their role didn't seem to fit. I want to say the game felt decided on Day 1 because of how drawn out and messy it was, but mainly I think it's just all the PRs claiming early that hurt us the most since it also prevented NKA and let a top town read like Math survive to ELo without anyone questioning why he was still alive.

I think on average the random role distribution is enough to balance the game since PRs may go to someone who misplays it. In an optimal distribution I'm sure it's definitely a town sided set up. But as it is now it looked so town sided on paper that it was enough for people to vote out a TPR mainly due to balance reasons. So I guess the main counter balance for this set up is that if the game looks town sided and a PR has some wonky looking results without catching scum, town will think they're just scum. Scum's best play is to say it's too town-sided as well and really push that idea.

Are gamma, Roden, and myself all wrong here RC?

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And NK15?

I really think your sim is flawed here

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Sure. You're all wrong, if that's what you want to hear.

So got it.

I will stick to talking with implosion then since you’re not going to listen to me or others then.