Mini Normal 2275: Roguelikes - Day 3: Endgame!

[kennyk]

Seeing the roguelike tree I get nostalgic feelings. Those were the days playing nethack for hours and hours.

Let's start this game with attacking the green mold with my dagger:
VOTE: Malakittens

[kennyk]

VOTE: kennyk the beings of fate have whispered it in my ear

The beings of fate seem to be very erratic: Three different whispers (=votes) in the first three hours of the game.

[kennyk]

I am now in UTC +2.

My first game of mafia was about 20 years ago with about 15 to 20 games until 2006, two of them on mafiascum with a different account. Games were way different then, like a town win in my first newbie game at the end of page 2. I restarted to play last year.

Honestly, I have no preference between playing town or scum. "Figuring things out" is something I like, too. But that is a job everyone has to do, as scum is better off if they know what's going on PR-wise. I especially like to think about ways to use and maybe even exploit the setup for a mechanical win. So expect some wild theories from my side.

[kennyk]

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

[kennyk]

Just to add too this all his posts reek of appeasement and trying not to offend anyone. His first post had a bit of this and his latest is worse.

Yes, I do try not to offend anyone. If that's your tactic to get information out of people this early in the game, that's fine for you. But that's not how I play.

If you want to see me hanging, because I don't have an elaborated read about everyone, so be it. I posted what I think about the players that did something relevant in my eyes. It is by far not enough to get a read on them. But I am generally not the kind of person who gets to reads fast.

I can definitely not see how my very first post in this thread should reek of appeasement. To me this reeks of someone desperately trying to build a case on someone.

But as you do want me to step on someones toes so much, I will do you the favour:
VOTE: FancyPants

[kennyk]

But what you posted wasn't relevant. You posted a bunch of stuff but didn't actually give any reads, so the question is this; why post it at all?

I never claimed it to be reads. Just my impressions about things that were relevant in my eyes. Like Irrelephant believing Shoshin is town without giving a reason why.

It was just things that I think are noteworthy. They were and are not enough to make it a read in my eyes.

And btw.: the quoted post doesn't contain a read either. Why did you post it at all?

[kennyk]

Kenny is town.

More votes on Malcolm, please.

And here is another "X is town" post without any reason. This time it is Shoshin on the giving and not the receiving end.

Mind to share, why you think I am town?

And why voteing Malcolm (except maybe for not posting much)?

[kennyk]

My post wasn't intended to look like I was doing stuff.

Your post is posted under the guise of actually contributing.

No it was not. FancyPants asked me about my thoughts. And I did post those thoughts. They aren't much in regard of reads, but those were the thoughts I have about this game.

[kennyk]

Spoiler:

Just to add too this all his posts reek of appeasement and trying not to offend anyone. His first post had a bit of this and his latest is worse.

Yes, I do try not to offend anyone. If that's your tactic to get information out of people this early in the game, that's fine for you. But that's not how I play.

If you want to see me hanging, because I don't have an elaborated read about everyone, so be it. I posted what I think about the players that did something relevant in my eyes. It is by far not enough to get a read on them. But I am generally not the kind of person who gets to reads fast.

I can definitely not see how my very first post in this thread should reek of appeasement. To me this reeks of someone desperately trying to build a case on someone.

But as you do want me to step on someones toes so much, I will do you the favour:
VOTE: FancyPants

You don't have to offend people, you just have to have an opinion.

In this post 21, you point out that Eiralox's behavior is erratic, I know this was done in a jokey way but you don't specify if that erratic behaviour is scummy or townie, you just bring it up with a smiley face. You're pointing to a behaviour but don't commit as to what it could mean.

Then in this post 148 you bring up a few things, I'll quote you so you aren't taken out of context:

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

From my perspective here's what you brought up in this post:
- That Eira voted a few times again (I don't understand your explanation for it).
- That my push on you is weird (you don't explain why it's weird, you do however only soft commit to the comment)
- You think Irrelephant's town read of shosin is fascinating (you don't say why or whether this is alignment indicative of anything).
- You think CW's self vote is NAI, you aren't sure who brought this up (For reference - I did, the person you're voting for).
- You throw some sus on to BBT for switching wagons from CW to CSF (This whole idea was Cat Scratch Fever's originally, importantly you don't actually vote BBT here).

So essentially you're simply stating things that have happened in game, or just recycling ideas other people have come up with without taking any strong stances.

- Scum are more afraid to offend people or take strong stances.
- Scum struggle to manufacture opinions or reads because they know they are BS.

Hence you are scum.

Since you're voting me, can you try and explain why you think I'm scum? Also why didn't you vote BBT since you thought his wagon switch was "fishy"? Can you explain why my push on you was "weird" in your eyes?

I am trying again to explain, why FancyPants push on me feels wierd (especially the early phase of it):

The game starts and Eira votes three times in the same amount of hours. It is RVS and so this might be Eiras way of trying to see how people react to votes on them or just to get things going. It is NAI in my eyes, as this could either be scum or town. My (more or less funny) comment was just a thing I had to do. If I see a fun thing to post, I need to post it. Yes, it had some substance to it, as it pointed at Eira voting thrice in three hours. But if it wasn't for the "beings of fate whispered" thing in Eiras post and the (bad) pun I could make of it, I wouldn't have posted it at all.

Then you voted me without explanation, which was fine at the time (still RVS). You later claim to have voted me because of thet post, but still give no further explanation. This was wierd in my eyes, as I haven't done anything in that post to deserve a vote. If you had said you voted me because of said post and because of the lack of a stance concerning Eira, I would have at least understood, why that post made you vote me. I wouldn't have agreed, but at least understood you.

You also stated, that my first post had an air of appeasement. I absolutely don't see what you mean by that. In my first post I had nostalgic feelings because of the game flavour and did a random vote on Mala with a bit of flavour in it. This all looked so much like an effort to make a case out of thin air, that I think is more scum than town. That's why I voted you.

Yes, I didn't vote BBT. It is because he isn't over my personal line of scumminess (yet).

Postpreview edit: I started to write this post a few hours ago but real life got its own ideas. That's why I am answering now and didn't do it earlier.

[kennyk]

Random question to some of the more experienced members in the game, I've never played in a game with Mafia day talk, how does this usually affect games if at all?
My current worry is that newb scum could be "coached" out of bad spots, is that common, or am I paranoid?

I haven't had that much experience with this either (one scum game with daytalk and one as part of a masonry, which could be seen similar). I would say the answer is "it depends".
In the masonry I played, we did a lot of daytalk about different things. But mostly it was about steup and scum speculation. Neither of us was in a bad spot though.

The scum game I did, mostly had daytalk about how to exploit the setup (we were informed about the roles as part of the setup). There was no talk about "how to get out of a situation". but I would guess, that that is a possibility for scum to do, too.

Scum daytalk enables them to coordinate their attacks, so they could either form a front against one player or each vote on a different player. They could even try and set up some form of gambit in which they sacrifice one of them in return for towncred for another scummy. In general, with daytalk all the scum tactics could be done more effectively (if done right).

[kennyk]

Also for reference I'm liking scum in:
{Loftwing/Kenny/Lowell/Malakittens}

Increasing the net would add {BBT, and maybe Eira}

Kenny is scum.

This is also extremely rude. If there is any town block, I'll be in it and that's the end of that.

Like to elaborate why you are so sure, that I am scum?

[kennyk]

CW have you played with me before? The locktown read felt like it came out of nowhere. You don't have to reveal who you are, just a y/n is fine.

Kenny, why is Fancy scum for pushing an early scumread? Town will make mountains out of molehills early on, and they're liable to be wrong since info is limited. Why is that not descriptive of Fancy's play here?

I guess I described, why I think Fancy's push looks scummy. I never said I am 100 % sure that they are scum. And how could I? To be honest I feel way less sure of a scum!Fancy than I was at the time of my vote.

[kennyk]

i cant wait to be n1'd judging by how things are going

Why do you think you are the one n1'd?

[kennyk]

Alright Kenny, you convinced me.

VOTE: Lowell

This was the last post I saw yesterday and it left me speechless. And I am still not too sure what to think about it. To get the context (yes, I know the next lines will be just repeating what happened in the thread):
BBT says "kenny is scum". I want to know, why they think so. They reply, that my posts don't look town. And in the next post, six minutes later, it is this vote change (again onto another wagon, I might add). As a reason for the vote change they only say that I convinced them.

The first thing that came to my mind was "this has to be scum who wants to speed up the Lowell wagon". But trying to hop on every wagon that is forming in hope for a fast miselim seems to be a very naive scum move. Given the experience of BBT this is out of question. So it had to be town move. But maybe looking townie is why BBT did it.

And why would a townie who is quite sure I am scum switch votes without any reason? But why do such an openly scum move as scum?

I really can't think of a valid motive behind the vote switch (which they later redid without any further reason) independent of BBTs alignment.

So BBT, can you please explain it to me?

[kennyk]

So here is my read list in order of the players list:
BlueBloodedToffee: null at the moment (see my last post)

Lowell: a hard slot for me to read. There is just a push on cats and a multiple post read list. I don't see much from Lowell to get town going. No questions to anyone at all. Could be town not knowing how to get a grip on the game or scum trying to dodge away. The latter pings me a bit more, so: scumlean

Loftwing: Taking one of my posts as the reason for a vote on me and later using the same post as a reason to unvoting and even defending me really feels strange. scumleann

Confidently Wrong: Really interesting idea for an account. With so many contradicting posts it would be quite easy to openly slip without anyone noticing or at least being able to easily deny it. No one can know for sure which post is real and which is a fake post to stick to the role. My gut feeling tells me that this slot is probably more town than scum, so townlean.

MalcolmTucker: Allthough I don't do agree with all of his posts, they seem to be very thoughtful. He tries to find scum in a very unagitated way. townlean

Shoshin: The "Fancy seems town" and "Kenny is town" feels weird and doesn't really add up to me. scumlean

Fredrick A Campbell: I have nothing bad to say about this slot. A few solid posts. townlean

Cat Scratch Fever: After a slow start Cat looks like she is in scum hunting mode. town

Malakittens: I don't see any game relevant posts at all (apart maybe from the early vote). So far this is null, but I would be willing to do a policy elim here.

FancyPants: At the moment I voted Fancy I really felt they were scum (I won't repeat myself here). I think I now know, why they thought what they thought. I really liked the "does experienced scum teach newbie scum in daytalk" question. This felt like they thought I was suddenly doing better but needed an explanation why (I hope everyone gets what I want to say there. I couldn't describe it any better) and they only came up with the "external help"-solution. scumlean

Irrelephant11: His effort feels townie. The only thing that pings my scum radar is the fact that he read shoshin as twon early on. This could be a pocketing try. townlean

Eiralox:I don't know why, but this slot feels hard to read, too. Allthough I like the game irrelevant fact, that they seem to know rogue games and seem to llike Monty Python, there's not too much that I do get out of this player even after an ISO. null

[kennyk]

you ask for reads lists, people give you fairly detailed lists while admitting areas where you're unsure, and you perceive that as suspect

I didn't ask kenny for a readslist
I'm fine with people being unsure, I find busywork (needlessly long posts) and hedging on basically the entire playerlist suspect (tho yes I have already acknowledged you didn't do this as much as I first thought)
None of that has to do with what I find suspect from kenny's readslist. I think he copy/pasted his read of me from your readslist, and is presenting it as his own thought. I think he's buddying you/amplifying a false concern in that regard, while hedging on me as townlean so he doesn't have to actually push me, a hard-to-lim player. The rest of his readslist is meh but could come from town. His read on me specifically is what I take issue with

I don't know why my readlist should be needlessly long, but if you wish to, my next list will come in separate posts.

While writing my readlist I ISOed everyone. And to be honest, my lunch break was coming to an end when it was your turn. But I definitely didn't copy anybody's read on anyone. If Malcolm and I do have the same read on you, then there has to be something to it (not that it is necessarily right).

As I have stated in my earlier, much discussed post, your town read on Shoshin felt odd. That's all it is. You based your read on meta which is hard to contradict. So how could I push there? And why would I, if the rest of your posts feel townie?

[kennyk]

Confidently Wrong: Really interesting idea for an account. With so many contradicting posts it would be quite easy to openly slip without anyone noticing or at least being able to easily deny it. No one can know for sure which post is real and which is a fake post to stick to the role. My gut feeling tells me that this slot is probably more town than scum, so townlean.

FancyPants: At the moment I voted Fancy I really felt they were scum (I won't repeat myself here). I think I now know, why they thought what they thought. I really liked the "does experienced scum teach newbie scum in daytalk" question. This felt like they thought I was suddenly doing better but needed an explanation why (I hope everyone gets what I want to say there. I couldn't describe it any better) and they only came up with the "external help"-solution. scumlean

Irrelephant11: His effort feels townie.

The only thing that pings my scum radar is the fact that he read shoshin as twon early on.

This could be a pocketing try. townlean

these reads are kinda weird

if you understand Fancy's original thought process and you liked one of their later posts, why are they still a scumlean for you?

Why is there no suspicion on Irrelephant, who has projected a lot of confidence that you are scum?

I must admit that my scum lean on Fancy might have to do with my unwillingness to admit to myself, that I was wrong with that slot and voted a little bit too impulsive (for me at least).

In general my suspicion on anyone isn't necessarily correlated with that person's read on me.

[kennyk]

Well I'm confident enough in lowell that I'd veto anyone i believe is spewed town off him, and i even actively townread loft off meta and malcom as well. Kenny i refuse to comment on because he did fool me recently in a somewhat embarassing way.

??? OK ???

When and how so?

[kennyk]

A whole lot of things happened since my last post. Before I comment on the CW/Eira clash and the consequences of this, I will start with a few minor things (minor in terms of posts to digest)

[kennyk]

personally i think the game is solved fmpov

with [Lowell/Eira/Mala] as the most likely team

and then as bonus PoE: [BBT/kennyk]

Every other player I feel a confident enough reason to townread them.

kennyk is also never paired with Lowell

And I thought I had you pocketed

By all the things that came from this post, I never saw the following questions:
I get it, that you had and (because neither BBT nor I posted) still have BBT and me as null.
Why do you think BBT us null?
Why am I? Are you afraid of openly reading me town?

Why am Lowell and I not paired?

[kennyk]

Mala does prefer playing town to scum. I like to give her some leeway because she's consistently busy IRL, but the longer she's away, the more wary I grow of her alignment.

Did I miss the post where Mala says she prefers town over scum?

If it is true, her not posting really is a bad sign.

[kennyk]

And now to the big things.

I guess I will start with CW (or his alt DkKoba). I had two games with him so far. In one he was scum and I on the receiving end of his scum push. It was hell. The other I was scum and had a fun time watching the battle that evolved after I had to be replaced.

Both times CW was trying to partly take over the thread and what we have seen here is far from the "bullying big ball raccoon" in those two games. But at least I can relate to Eira being annoyed or frustrated by CW (as far as his playstyle is concerned).

Allthough they were sometimes being served a bit rude (not quite the word I want here, but can't think of a better one right now, even in my native language) CWs arguments against Eira had a point as they were directed at things that were off.

The often cited "Eira went off after CWs vote and pushed CW for the mala/lowell/Eira thing" is the most prominent of them. I never read CWs post as a "those three are for sure connected scum" list. It is more like a "those three are the most scummiest for me right now". It would be very dubious if anyone had a list with three players on them who are all connected scum on day one in any normal game.

Eiras unwillingness to discuss with CW is something I can fully understand. I was very short of doing the same thing myself in said game, but never voiced it. But later refusing to talk to others as well felt way off, but could be due to his bad temper from his discussion with CW as it has softened quite a bit (thanks to Fred).

Allthough I still stand by my word, that I would be willing to do a policy elim on Mala because of her inactivity, I don't think Eiras "why kill me, an active player" is a feasible argument. And maybe I have to specify the policy elim: I am willing to do a Mala policy elim only if there is is no other, reasonable elim that is going to find a majority.

So in short: Eira in my eyes got the worse out of this dispute and is downgraded in my reads.

[kennyk]

I am not caught up in this game.

Two competing wagons is spicy though. I want to get involved

You want a wagon of your own?

[kennyk]

Lowell

Why did you change your mind?

[kennyk]

So in short: Eira in my eyes got the worse out of this dispute and is downgraded in my reads.

enough to place a vote there?

Yes, I see Eira as the better option for the elim than a policy elim. In fact I thought Eira was still at E-2 and as Fred correctly stated: we don't need to see a fast D1 elim. So I didn't put my vote there yet. But somehow I totally ignored the shift in Fred's vote.

VOTE: Eiralox

[kennyk]

Why are null reads scummy?

They aren't inherently scummy, even holding a royal estate of all 12 at once (of which I am now slightly kess sure of), but what troubles me is that they both equare Kenny and CW this way as null, yet also divide them in twain with Kenny being better than CW.

They are both different, and yet also the same.

Didn't Irrelephant kind of sorted this out? For Eira there are three read levels: scum, null and town. Eira's null is what most of us decide into scum lean, null and town lean.

So I would translate Eira's read into
me = townlean and
CW = scumlean

I doubt that it is a scum slip but I might do some research in older Eira games about this topic.

[kennyk]

Lowell not knowing that there is day hat for scum after him not playing for so long is a possible thing. But there have been posts about day chat in this game (pants asked about its influence on the game).
This doesn't feel too good.

[kennyk]

aand another thing: in #338 kenny has Lowell, Loftwing, Shoshin and Fancy as scumleans. Mala null but ok with policy elim.

Between #338 and #687 Kennyk has only publicly felt better about Pants.

So I want to know: what changed? #687 Kenny only talks about Eira and policy vote, which I assume means MalaKittens.

And kenny questions CatScratchFever for switching off Eira and onto Lowell.

So yeah maybe reads changed, they do, sure, but I wanna know what happened on the scumleans on Lowell, Shoshin and Loftwing?

Why does Kennyk only seems to be considering Eira and I'm assuming Mala in #687?

there are wagons on both loftwing and llowel at this point. Do kenny still scumlean on them? Because they sure don't seem to be considering those two wagons as viable despite earlier scumleaning both.

This is a reply to Eira's double post. I won't quote the other, as it makes me wonder, why I am the one who was accused off a too lengthy post.

This might sound a bit harsh, but I sometimes have the feeling, Eira is deliberately trying to misread things. There were some occasions in his infight with CW, which led me to this conclusion. And now there is this double post.

What on earth makes you think, I only have one single comment of you as my main point for voting you?

You obviously read post 675 as you named it. There are at least three arguments in that post of why I think you are at least worthy of a scumlean.

On the other hand I never said, I changed my reads on Lowell, Loftwing an Shoshin, because at the point of my vote, they still all were in the same scumlean range (Shoshin was upgraded by now, if you wanna know it).

And if you have more than one player on your list, at one point you must decide, where to place your vote. You were the most likely scum for me at that time. Combined with the fact, that there really was no wagon on Shoshin and Lowell at that time and the wagon on Loftwing was small, I decided it was best to go with the most scummiest on my personal readlist who incidentally had the highest chance of going through. But just because I didn't mention them, doesn't mean I didn't find them viable.

[kennyk]

Spoiler: Eiralox post 789 spoilered for better reading experience

This is a reply to Eira's double post. I won't quote the other, as it makes me wonder, why I am the one who was accused off a too lengthy post.

I said you're long pants post in non-indicative. I merely noted it for posterity.

This might sound a bit harsh, but I sometimes have the feeling, Eira is deliberately trying to misread things. There were some occasions in his infight with CW, which led me to this conclusion. And now there is this double post.

i'm deliberately trying 2 find scum

What on earth makes you think, I only have one single comment of you as my main point for voting you?

that's what i got from a careful reading.

You obviously read post 675 as you named it. There are at least three arguments in that post of why I think you are at least worthy of a scumlean.

again i only saw 1, unless ur counting going with cw as an argument.

On the other hand I never said, I changed my reads on Lowell, Loftwing an Shoshin, because at the point of my vote, they still all were in the same scumlean range (Shoshin was upgraded by now, if you wanna know it).

never said u did change ur reads. said that at time of voting me u only seemed to be considering mala as an alternative. and the fact that ur asking CSF why they switch of me to lowell(your scumlean) ran all kinda warning bells 2 me. Loftwing has done this exact same thing with fred, and cw with a few others.

And if you have more than one player on your list, at one point you must decide, where to place your vote. You were the most likely scum for me at that time. Combined with the fact, that there really was no wagon on Shoshin and Lowell at that time and the wagon on Loftwing was small, I decided it was best to go with the most scummiest on my personal readlist who incidentally had the highest chance of going through. But just because I didn't mention them, doesn't mean I didn't find them viable.

hmmmmmm. the wagon on loftwing wasn't small. was biggest one besides mine at time of your vote and prior to me testing cw.



-------------


well ok imma just go on and say it: poss scum team i'm seeing rn is loftwing/kenny/confidently wrong. there are patterns, not something i'm betting the farm on rn but bleh might as well share.

i have no particular case against kenny and cw as of now, cw doesnt offer me much as of yet tbh and most prob. town among those three for now.


kennny......there's one thing i'll say about it. this might just be me being whoopy but kenny's vote on eira, their progression to that point... idk it feels as if a scum chat is involved with that. kenny comes in and mentions lowell before adressing my posts calling 'em for not having a say on lowell wagon at time of voting for me. that's very convenient in my eyes, adding the fact that Kenny didn't seem happy with CSF voting lowell above me. so i'm feeling kenny is wary forming a hard opinion on loftwing atm? and very wary of jumping on that wagon.

Agree with irrelphant about Loftwing being a good flip atm, chances are I won't be changing my vote today.

Eira, if I tunnel you now, I can say you did dig that tunnel on your own. You did deliberately misinterpreted my post again.

First: The "lenthy post" comment wasn't directed to you. (this one I don't count as deliberate as it wasn't specified at who it was)

Second: Here are all three arguments from post 675, quoted seperately for your convenience:

The often cited "Eira went off after CWs vote and pushed CW for the mala/lowell/Eira thing" is the most prominent of them. I never read CWs post as a "those three are for sure connected scum" list. It is more like a "those three are the most scummiest for me right now". It would be very dubious if anyone had a list with three players on them who are all connected scum on day one in any normal game.

Eiras unwillingness to discuss with CW is something I can fully understand. I was very short of doing the same thing myself in said game, but never voiced it. But later refusing to talk to others as well felt way off, but could be due to his bad temper from his discussion with CW as it has softened quite a bit (thanks to Fred).

Allthough I still stand by my word, that I would be willing to do a policy elim on Mala because of her inactivity, I don't think Eiras "why kill me, an active player" is a feasible argument.

Third: CSF's vote change was out of the blue. I found absolutely no clue as to why it happened. There was no reason given. Between CSF voting you and changing back to Lowell there were exactly three posts by CSF: CW is town; CSF's too cute to be scum; answer to my question regarding Mala. That's the thing that felt odd and not the fact that the vote went from you to Lowell. Why you think I am unhappy with CSF's change is beyond me.

Forth: I try it in other words: If your number one suspect for scum has the longest wagon and your number two suspect the second longest, where would you vote?

Fifth: There is absolutely no scum chat involved in my progression to voting you. You should try and bet your farm on that.

[kennyk]

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

I agree with this, especially as one of the folks who will be more out than in this weekend. And the way the loftwing wagon just seems to be floating there with no one wanting to hammer makes me feel good about it. The last vote is always the hardest--come on folks, someone be a hero.

If I see things right, Loftwing is still at E-2. The votecount in post 765 had him at E-2 but it was wrong, as Eira was on Lowell. Eira then got on Loftwing, so he is now at E-2.

[kennyk]

Okay I admit that my memory wasn't right about the actual length of the wagons. But my point is just as valid with equal length wagons .

[kennyk]

So Fred intends to hammer Loftwing at a certain time and promises to hunt down anyone who does hammer before another time. I totally see and agree with the intention behind that.

Then Eira unvotes to not get Loftwing hammered early. A statement I can relate to in general. But with Fred's post I ask myself if it really was necessary in this case.

If I were scum and still off the wagon, I wouldn't hammer before Fred's deadline. No need to get into a bad light there. Someone else would do the dirty work for you.

And as town it isn't good to hammer either. Even if I were quite sure that Loftwing is scum, I would let the day go on to maybe get some useful Infos from his posts.

So there really is no need to unvotes. The only reasons I can think of are either you have doubts about his guilt (which you don't) or both are scum and Eira tries to make an elim less likely.

So in my eyes this feels a bit like a last ditch at saving a fellow scum.

[kennyk]

Just a short assessment of the setup:
With a vig and a (now deceased) backup vig we have a good chance of killing scum at night but as it is compulsive there is also the chance of two townies being killed at night. This could make it a short game (either way).

Loft didn't lie about being a neighborizer and having another perk. If I see things right, him being shot was resolved before him being able to neighborize anyone. Is that right? Otherwise we could at least get some info from his choice of target. The one thing that worries me is the "informed" part. The big question is which information he got. I might look into Loft`s ISO again to see where things might have been based on extra information (though it might be difficult to determine which might be "normal" mafia info and which the extra info).

I guess there is more to come after I had time to look at things and think about them a bit.

[kennyk]

I tend to agree with two of Malcolm`s four recent conclusions.

Although there is always the possibility that it was an expertly orchestrated scum thing, I for now agree, that Irrelephant`s constant push on Loft makes him townie.

CWs defence of Loft feels scummy. But I have to say, that it also feels like the previous game I had with their alt account. They were defending my slot from day 1 on in the same way and I was scum and they town. so with this meta info involved it could very well be within their town range. But it is definitely something to look at.

I don't think that BBT's defence of Loft is in any way scummy. Especially the "nearly half of the players were more lurking than Loft" feels very natural for a townie. Yes, BBT really started the Fred wagon, but I don't think, that anybody at that point felt like it could really get us to a (mis-)elim.

I have to totally disagree with the proposed townblock. And this is not due to the fact, that I am missing in it. I am far beyond the point of believing I could be a part of a townblock soon. I just can't believe that there isn`t at least one scum on that wagon. And the coincident, that Malcolm himself is in his proposed townblock. This lets me raise an eyebrow.

So Malcolm, why do you think, this is the townblockl we should go with (apart from the fact, that they were on a scum wagon)? I guess there`s no need to explain why you think Irrelephant should be a part of it.

[kennyk]

Day 2 town block is as follows:

Myself/Irrelephant/Malcom/Kenny

It's probably not Eira or Lowell either.

Last two scum are in:
BlueBloodedToffee
Confidently Wrong
Gamma Emerald
Malakittens

Why am I in there? And why is Malcolm?

[kennyk]

the whispers.... the scrittering scratching at my tearing and rending all semblances of and as i might try but no the whispers the whispers yes follow the whispers

Fancy might have gotten it. I don't. And by that I mean I genuinely don't get what you are trying to say by this at all. This might be due to the fact I am no native english speaker. I really tried to translate it, but it doesn't add up.