Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over
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And ting, THIS is why I wanted you to unvote. Dourgrim would have just accidentally hammered Panzer if your vote was still on.
Sensfan, your vote is still on Panzer; you probably haven't finished reading yet, but are you OK with a Panzer lynch? I told Panzer to claim because I would be willing to vote him, but if you are not on board, then we are still one short, and I think B_B should be the one to claim.
So don't claim quite yet, Panzer.-
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Well, looking at the vote count it seems clear that Panzer will be our lynch candidate for today. Is anybody against him claiming? I will be the final vote unless Sensfan is against it, as his current vote was placed by subgenius about 35 pages ago.
I don't like how quickly the Panzer wagon grew without a lot of good reasoning, but it's hard to differentiate scummy opportunism from a desire to just end the day, no matter who is lynched.
I would prefer B_B and qwints to Panzer.-
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Actually, Panzer is still at L-2, not L-1. Zilla unvoted Panzer in post 1002
Here are the votes of the 5 people curently voting for Panzer:
subgenius (now Sensfan) - Post 170
springlullaby - Post 815
qwints - Post 860
militant - Post 1020
Dourgrim - Post 1021
- subgenius' vote was a LONG time ago, and Sensfan hasn't stated whether he agrees with it.
- spring's vote was odd because she ignored Panzer refusing to post the previous 4 times, only noticing it once he did it for the 5th time.
- qwints vote is quite scummy, as already mentioned.
- militant and Dourgrim both appear to just want to get the day over with, without caring too much who is lynched.
That's what I mean by not a lot of good reasoning.
Dourgrim, Sensfan, and ting; we still need your top 3.-
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Every player in the game has good reason to self-preserve, so it isn't that scummy, but all your votes seem to be MORE about self-preservation than about finding scum.
If Zilla is your #1, why did you unvote Zilla and vote qwints? Just because he's higher on the list than you?-
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ting =) wrote:1. Joe doesn't kill himself. John (that's you), goes, "Aha! You didn't kill yourself. You're obviously not sure about your religion."
2. Joe does kill himself. It still doesn't prove religion B is right.
1. But no benefit would be gained by Joe killing himself. If she really is town, Zilla killing herself has the benefit of proving to everybody that she is town. That's the benefit. Joe could say "Yes, killing myself would prove my faith, but that's not enough to offset the cost of ending my life." But Zilla killing herself would do more than prove her faith, it would also catch two or 3 scum.
The whole reason I brought it up is that Zilla herself was trying to say that it was fine, because she's caught 2 or 3 scum on her wagon. I was just forcing her to put her money where her mouth was.
2. You are right that Zilla proving herself to be town would not mean the people she thought were scum are actually scum. And you are right that even if Zilla WAS confident she had caught 2 or 3 scum (which she was not), she should not martyr herself, for this very reason.
But Zilla did not mention this. She said she was considering martyring herself, but didn't want to do it yet because B_B was scummier, and had a similar number of votes.
You are taking the entire thing far too literally. I never wanted Zilla to self-vote or to martyr herself. Just like the kid saying "why don't you marry chocolate?" doesn't really want anybody to marry chocolate. And just like Joe doesn't really want John to kill himself.
And the fact that Zilla did not include either me or B_B in her top 3 proves that I was right. She said she had caught 2 or three scum, I told her that she didn't really think so, and she's verified that by only including one of the three in her lynch-list.
This was a minor point in my eyes, and not at all a significant part of the case against Zilla. Why do you find it so important?
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And Zilla, you should not get to decide who claims, no more than Panzer or B_B do. You are one of the top 3 candidates, so your views are biased. I think B_B should be the one to claim, and the one to get lynched. He has more pseudo-votes than anybody else.-
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Actually, Panzer and BB are tied with ting's vote in there now. I think I agree with Zilla that it is time for Panzer to claim. I would prefer B_B, but they both have 8 pseudo-votes and Panzer is at L-1.
Goat, SL, mykonian, ting, militant, Sens, and Dourgrim; are you all OK with Panzer as the lynch-choice? If there is no opposition in the next 8 hours or so, I think Panzer should claim.-
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Actually, it's really just sens and goat we need to hear from; everybody else who isn't a top lynch candidate is already on the psuedo-wagon.
And I just re-read goat and saw that he wanted to put Panzer in his top 3 instead of Zilla, so that makes NINE pseudo-votes out of a possible 11. The only people not on his psuedo-wagon are B_B and Sensfan.
Panzer is the choice.Please claim, Panzer.-
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This was mykonian's case on BB:
He's scum because he's attacking the same player mykonian attacked for 30 pages. That doesn't make any sense. And the Panzer vote was fine, it was the unvote that was odd.mykonian wrote:BB next: His Panzer vote wasn't strong. I don't know why he keeps the pressure on GIEFF, while Panzer made clear that GIEFF didn't lie, and therefor GIEFF must have acted protown.
This is a very weird thing to say, too. What do you mean in case people think we should do it? Why don't you do what you want to do?mykonian wrote:to start something, in case people think we should go for the second place in pseudovotes.
As people read, can they claim "not-cop" so we're sure there isn't a CC, and that a potential real cop just hasn't seen Panzer's claim yet? Right now, Zilla, mykonian, and GIEFF are the only three who have claimed not-cop.-
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Why did you feel the need to answer this question for mykonian? I thought you found him scummy? Shouldn't town-Panzer want to see how a player he finds scummy reacts before jumping to his defense?Panzerjager wrote:Great catch Zilla although but I think that is in light of Qwints being there and him being your buddy.
And what do you mean it's in light of qwints being there? Being where? And what does qwints being Zilla's buddy have to do with why mykonian ignored qwints?-
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OK, that makes sense, mykonian. Hopefully the 6 other people see the claim soon.
We have a bit less than 4 days until the deadline. If we don't have any CC's in the next day or so, B_B should claim, assuming at least 5 of the 6 others have seen the thread. I would be royally pissed off if the real cop is off in lurky-land and didn't notice a fake-claim.-
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I saw that rolefishing thing too, Goat, and I agree it makes him more likely to be the cop. It is also a bad thing for a real cop to say, as it is a HUGE hint that you are a PR. So by Panzer's own WIFOM-logic, why would a PR act like a PR?
Panzer is right, I DON'T know that he is not the cop. I was fishing for reactions from Panzer and from qwints (and from anybody else who may have been Panzer's scumbuddy). I was hoping for a bit more, but I'd think that the real cop would have been a bit more defensive and angry, especially considering Panzer's past, where he gets very angry when he doesn't understand why he is being voted.
Even though FIVE people haven't seen the claim yet, I agree that we should move on to B_B. I do not trust Panzer's claim, but in the absence of a counterclaim, he is right that we cannot lynch him. Although if the mafia has a roleblocker, an outed cop is no better than a townie anyway.
My vote is for B_B to claim.-
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Yes, mykonian, but at odds with that is the deadline which is getting closer and closer. What do we do if BB claims a power role, too? Originally I wanted to wait until just about everyone saw the claim, but I don't know when that will be. If we wait until monday, that leaves us just 24 hours for everybody to see B_B's claim, everybody the chance to CC, and everybody to shift their votes as a group to get the best lynch candidate. I have no confidence we can do all of that successfully in 24 hours.-
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If you're the real cop, why didn't you think it was scummy for me to say I had information that proves you weren't the cop?Panzerjager wrote:Dude get you votes of me..if there is a counter claim then you all can string me up, but deadline is coming in rwo days and if I get deadline lynched that'll be BS. Anyone with a vote on me right now is incredibly scummy and is trying to lynch the cop.-
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Panzer really did lie though, SensFan. He's admitted it. He never thought mykonian's vote was random. This is clear based on a close reading of this post.-
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Post 1079:qwints wrote:Wow, a person about to be lynched claimed cop at deadline. I am shocked, shocked to find PR claiming going on here.
My vote stays.
Post 1087:Panzerjager wrote:Unvote: Vote:QwintsYOU DO NOT LYNCH A CLAIMED COP REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
Post 1089:Panzerjager wrote:
You don't, Cause I'm cop.GIEFF wrote:Do you know how I know you aren't really the cop, Panzer?
Post 1102:
Post 1121:Panzerjager wrote:Notice how the three people that aren't buying my claim and wanting to lynch a non counterclaimed cop are the 3 closest to the top of my scum list.
Also, Goat, sure but if they claim cop scum has to be pretty good a pulling shit out of their ass. Also, cop is one of the most popular power roles so their is a HUGE risks in claiming it. And on the whole I had too check my role, that clearly was a joke that I was using to illustrate that GIEFF had a good point. It wasn't me saying I seriously had to check my role.Panzerjager wrote:Dude get you votes of me..if there is a counter claim then you all can string me up, but deadline is coming in rwo days and if I get deadline lynched that'll be BS. Anyone with a vote on me right now is incredibly scummy and is trying to lynch the cop.
Post 1138:qwints wrote:unvote
Panzer now seems credible enough to warrant leaving him alive.
Which of Panzer's posts in between your first statement and your last convinced you he was credible? The part where he called everybody voting for him scummy? Or the part where he called you scummy, specifically?
unvote
vote qwints-
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Yes, if you truly are unbaised. But a lot of the things you've said seem a lot more glowing than they should be.
You haven't said a single negative thing about the player you replaced, yet you have at least once about every single other player you've mentioned. I don't think that is a coincidence, and for you to now claim that you don't know who you are replacing is suspect. Do you know your role?-
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I forgot Dourgrim, who said he may need to be replaced.
If all three of the MIA posters (militant, ting, and Dourgrim) claim "not-cop", then I think B_B should claim ASAP - does anybody disagree? We just have to hope they get back to the thread soon.
mod, have you prodded militant, ting, or Dourgrim recently?-
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Why would you put Panzer in your top 3 now? What has changed since Post 836, when he was 5th on your list, or Post 956, when he was not in your top 3?Beyond_Birthday wrote:I am not cop, but I don't buy Panzer's claim at all. Still, my line of thought prevents me from voting for Panzer yet since it is bad play. Thinking...thinking...
Need time to consider the claim. Anyway, I don't think I voted Panzer of put him in my top 3, but I surely would now.-
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According to the latest pseudo-vote count, B_B is 3 ahead of qwints. SL, Dour, and militant would all prefer a B_B lynch over qwints.
@ Dour, SL, and militant: Is that still accurate? You prefer B_B to qwints?
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@ Dour, ting, and militant: Do you CC Panzer's cop claim? You are costing us precious time. Not posting for 3 days is one thing, but not noticing a cop claim by the lynch-target for three days is another.
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qwints, please explain why you unvoted Panzer, and why he now looks credible.-
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Why didn't these reasons apply when you said your vote would stay, in Post 1079? 5 people claimed "not-cop" at the time, and now it's up to 8 people. There are still 3 left who haven't had the opportunity to CC.qwints wrote:No counter claim combined with an inability on my part to see anyone else bread crumbing their role as cop. Thus panzer is conditionally town for me.
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I don't trust Panzer's claim. I don't think the real cop would have been that lackadaisical about me claiming I KNEW he wasn't really the cop, and I don't think the real cop would be as quiet as Panzer has been lately, and as uninvolved in trying to find a better lynch candidate.
I am pissed off that it's taken 4 days for THREE different players to respond to a cop claim (especially considering the fact that the last time they checked the thread, the deadline would have been TODAY). If none of militant, ting, or Dourgrim are going to CC the cop claim, then we very much needed those four days. We're coming close to the deadline again.-
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lackadaisical just means laid-back, not caring. Look at how pissed off he got in the past; he showed none of that when I told him I was sure he wasn't really the cop. He just said "I really am the cop" and left it at that. Wouldn't the real cop be more interested in proving me wrong, or in calling me scummy for lying?
This is all moot if militant, ting, and Dourgrim all claim "not-cop," though.
mod, have you prodded militant or ting recently?
They aren't posting at all in other games, either.-
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Even if Panzer is the real cop, lynching him wouldn't be all that horrible, because I assume the setup is designed to avoid the "follow-the-cop syndrome". So mafia either has a roleblocker, we don't have a protection role, or something else is going on to ensure that once a cop claims, he is not all that useful to the town. If he is the real cop, now that he is outed, he's likely no more valuable than a vanilla townie.
However, I still don't want to lynch an un-CC'd cop claim, and won't support a Panzer lynch if neither ting nor militant CC's.
I think I would prefer qwints to BB now among lynch-candidates, but it's close. And I think that because there are three posters (Dourgrim, springlullaby, and militant) who included BB in their lynch-list that did not include qwints, then BB should be the target.
Unless these three have changed their minds, or others would prefer qwints to BB.-
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The point is that he is NOT confirmed cop. I would definitely not lynch a confirmed townie. My point is that I don't think he is really the cop, and that even if I am wrong, lynching him wouldn't be the end of the world.mykonian wrote:even when it is midnight, I know the first part is WRONG: the fact that someone is confirmed increases the odds that you hit scum with a lynch. I tried some calculation (GD stuff) for a simple setup with a tracker, and part of it's usefullness is that it can be a confirmed towny.
I still don't want to lynch him without a CC.
Care to explain why you disagree with the logic, Sensfan? Or are you of the B_B school, where the only thing you need to do to prove an argument wrong is call it stupid and refuse to discuss it any further?
If a hidden cop is worth 10 points to the town, how many points do you think an outed cop is worth?-
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Here is my unofficial vote-count. Let me know if I made a mistake.
qwints (5): mykonian, Panzer, GIEFF, Zilla, Goatrevolt
Panzer (1): militant
Zilla (1): Beyond_Birthday
Not voting (5): ting =), Sensfan, springlullaby, qwints, Dourgrim
mykonian has since switched to BB, but did not unvote first, so his vote is still on qwints.
And here is the latest pseudo-vote tally. I added Zilla to the OK-with-lynching-qwints list; are their any other updates?
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You never unvoted qwints, mykonian, so your vote is technically still on him.
I'll remove Panzer from the pseudo-voting list completely - we won't lynch him today, so the next step is to find the next person, and quickly.
I would prefer a qwints lynch to a BB lynch, and qwints has 3 more votes than BB (assuming mykonian switches his vote), but BB has 2 more pseudo-votes. As I've said before, SL, militant, and Dour are the three OK with BB but not OK with mykonian; I've asked them multiple times if they are OK with a qwints lynch and they haven't responded.
Is anybody who is still reading the thread against a qwints claim or lynch?-
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With the VT claim, I don't think we should lynch anybody besides you today, qwints. I don't think scum would claim VT, but we can't very well go onto a third person and risk outing a PR.
So any thoughts, accusations, or hunches you can give us in the next couple days that we can look back on later will be helpful.-
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Why is that?mykonian wrote:At least this is better then a Panzer lynch.
I have a scummy feeling from both qwints and B_B. qwints claiming VT lessened it somewhat, but not enough for me to think he's town, and not enough for me to want to switch to B_B, as the greater likelihood B_B is scum (relative to qwints) is not enough to offset the potential to out a PR.mykonian wrote:So if you have a scummy feeling from BB, you should question him. If you couldn't stop lynching qwints anyway, asking for a claim was a joke.
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L-2 on qwints now, as B_B never unvoted. I would prefer towait on the hammer, both to see if qwints has anything he can leave for us before he gets lynched, and to give ting a chance to CC Panzer's claim.-
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L-1 for qwints now.
Please give us something we can analyze later, qwints.
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BB, I am re-iterating my position that mykonian is scum, which has not changed. I've thought mykonian was scum for a while now, but there was no support for his lynch, so I haven't pursued it so that we get a good lynch out before the deadline(Zilla was the only other on the psuedo-wagon).
mykonian slipped when he assumed Panzer's cop-claim was valid (before everyone had a chance to CC), and he's trying to stifle discussion about the possibility and un-CC'd cop claim could be scum. He doesn't just disagree, he's trying to end the discussion.-
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You DID assume he was cop. You referred to him as a PR, and immediately started looking for the next lynch-target.
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More stuff before twilight hits to refer back to in case I get whacked:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29#1529029
mykonian says BB is scum for focusing on me, even though Panzer made it clear I didn't lie. Yet mykonian has done the exact same thing.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1522453
A summary of mykonian's inconsistencies regarding his cases on me.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50#1521650
More stuff about mykonian.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#1514183
Me countering the case that mykonian finally made after I repeatedly demanded he make one if he was going to continue attacking me. He soon after decided I wasn't really all that scummy, but said it was only because Panzer showed my case to be more valid than he thought. Even though Panzer had already done this. And even though that shouldn't be enough to go from attacking someone for 30 pages to assuming they must be done.
mykonian kept pushing for Zilla to claim, even when she was down to L-4, and even though he later claimed he didn't want to lynch her.
mykonian called Zilla a townie on three separate occasions.-
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It was never about you wanting to lynch an un-cc'd cop. It was about you assuming immediately he was the legitimate cop, and trying to cut off any discussion about the potential for him to be scum. Nobody is arguing we lynch Panzer today.
The abrupt halt to the tunneling is a lot scummier than the tunneling itself was.
Your "too scummy" defense doesn't work. You called Zilla a townie three times. Even if you were town, you would stop doing it after I called you on it, for the exact same reasons you would stop doing it as scum, i.e. it looks scummy.
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The fact that qwints doesn't want to say anything to help us out makes me more confident he is scum.-
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This is in no way helpful to the town. I've asked you to make some cases or analysis or anything you can give us to look back on tomorrow when your alignment is known, but you've refused to do so.qwints wrote:Since deadline is approaching and BB is more likely to be scum than I am:
vote: BB[/unvote]
I think we should just hammer qwints and end the day.-
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