Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[archaebob]

/confirm

Though I honestly won't have much time for this game until the weekend.

Hope to have a read through done by Friday, will probably post something or another then.

[archaebob]

unvote

This game is a real piece of work, lol. Y'all will be

very

lucky if I'm able to sort through this before next week.

And I love you too Sanjay.

[archaebob]

mod: could you do us all a favor and consolidate Zazie's spam pages into one post? It'd be epically helpful.

[archaebob]

nobody else leave,

please

. this game is already too confusing

More than half of this game is replacements...lol.

I'm just burning through this thread like it's Southern California, and might even have something to say tomorrow. We'll see.

[archaebob]

I disagree.

I would really appreciate time to collect myself and get some questions out before the day ends.

Though if I don't get my act together by this weekend, I of course won't at all begrudge the day going to night.

[archaebob]

@ DRK -

No, there is no possible way that i can get my opinions in order "a bit". When my opinions are together, they will be completely together, and that's when I'll post.

Actually, I do suspect that I'll be caught up pretty solidly before the deadline. I'm just worried I won't have time to do what I want to do before the day ends.

Meh, whatever, you guys decide what you want, I just kinda showed up.

[archaebob]

I'm not totally done reading this monster yet, but where I am right now, I do not at all support the DRK wagon. He seems very pro-town to me. Even if he IS scum, he's a very costly mislynch, as he has contributed a lot to the activity of this thread.

I don't know who else I'd want to vote at this moment, because I'm still reading. But if DRK flips town today, I'm going to be coming down pretty hard on the wagon that done it tomorrow.

[archaebob]

vote looker

[archaebob]

archaebob, this isn't the time to play close to the chest. If you've got a reason to vote Looker please do share it.

Archaebob, I'm just waiting for your vote.

I was just being silly.

unvote

All I know right now is that I strongly disagree with lynching DRK. In general, the whole DRK vs. CA thing reeks of town on town. I'd have been willing to lynch brothernature on policy, but he's been replaced with someone who's at least trying to be active, and I haven't seen anything that's actually scummy from him.

I don't have that great a feel for this game yet though. I've only read all the way through once, and it hasn't been adequate. Right now, I'm going through super methodically, doing PBPA's of pretty much every player at the same time. I'm about half way through, and am not sure when I'll be done atm.

[archaebob]

CA
DJ
KoC
BB

There is scum on this wagon. I can smell it.

[archaebob]

vote ZazieR

Since I don't at all like the major wagons right now, I don't see any reason not to aid Raskol in his crusade against lurking.

[archaebob]

Anyways, even though this will probably get me lynched, Unvote.

Easily the towniest move in this game so far.

Anybody still on on the CA wagon tomorrow had better have a brilliant case for me.

[archaebob]

As far as I'm concerned CA is pretty much confirmed town.

Unless there's anybody who thinks that they can explain the motivation for a scum-CA to unvote like that two days before deadline, then I fully expect to see this wagon disappear.

[archaebob]

Sounds like you have a crisis of imagination there, archaebob.

Lol, what do you mean?

[archaebob]

mk, my other game just went to night, so this is about to get my full attention.

I'm going to need a day or so to remind myself of what's going on here...I had like JUST caught up before the lynch happened, and now I've forgotten everything.

[archaebob]

Never has so much been posted and so little said.

This.

[archaebob]

mod: I'm V/LA until Sunday night

[archaebob]

vote Knight of Cydonia

[archaebob]

wait, u guys hold up. we need to figure out immediately what we're doing about ZazieR. my guess is that he's pretty much about to replace out (@ ZazieR - which is really shitty, btw, given how difficult this game has already been for Kreriov). if he doesn't either replace out or start posting soon, i strongly recommend an instant bandwagon on his ass.

[archaebob]

Yes, I'm here Looker.

I don't think you guys understand how absolutely insane this thread is, from a replacement's perspective.

My vote is on Knight of Cydonia because I don't buy his eleven knives vote.

[archaebob]

fos looker...

[archaebob]

Looker, my problem with lynching Sanjay is that he is a rather costly mislynch. I think that this game is extremely convoluted right now, and we're going to be better off in the long run cleaning up the town than trying to hit scummy players who are active posters. I don't see Sanjay as scummier than KoC, but i see KoC-town as way more useless than Sanjay-town.

[archaebob]

@ Furry -

What's the confusion exactly?

[archaebob]

archaebob, what's your read on me?

Dude, there is no way in hell I can do this right now. Actually, I don't think i can trust myself to be able to evaluate you in this game until either you or I have died in 873. You understand, right?

Cleaning up the town VS Hitting Scummy Players: This gives me the impression that you'd rather lynch useless town over active scum.

- KoC Town VS Sanjay Town: The way I feel about this situation is that, though one may be more useful than the other, they're still both town so I'd refrain from lynching either one; however, this is under the assumption that they are town, under which I am currently not. Sanjay is Mafia and KoC has a shot at being his partner.

I would never lynch confirmed useless town over confirmed active scum. But I think that this game is unique enough to make keeping the active players around a worthwhile endeavor. So, if I KNEW that Sanjay was scum, I'd want him lynched, but since I don't know, I'd rather lynch someone who I KNOW is useless.

What is a "costly mislynch" as opposed to just a mislynch?

A costly mislynch is one that hurts that the town in ways beyond simply being down another town player. This game suffers from a lack of cohesion, focus, and activity. From what I can tell, Sanjay has been instrumental in keeping this thread alive, simply because he posts coherently, and often. An environment without any players like Sanjay favors scum, because there is no organized structure by which you can measure a player's actions. They can slip by. SO...I'm saying that I'd rather keep Sanjay around because I'm not positive that he's scum, and I think the town will benefit more in the long run from narrowing itself down to a core of consistent players than it will from stabbing at who they think

might

be the scum right now.

[archaebob]

alright, i think KoC is really deserving of the wagon right now. Can we get the heat up? Town or scum, he's the best lynch today, and I think it's not implausible that he's scum. That last post was totally pointless, and looks like a text-book case of disinterested scum.

@ Looker - they have done enough for me to have reads on them.

[archaebob]

ebwop:

@ Looker: they

haven't

done enough for me to have reads on them.

[archaebob]

@ KoC -

And what have YOU done today, exactly?

You guys, I really think the best thing this town can do for itself is lynch KoC right now. I'm having a lot of difficulty summing up the motivation to really comb through this thread, and I don't think the game will survive anymore replacements. The best thing this town can do for itself right now is stfu and lynch. If we narrow this game down to a smaller number of legitimately active players, it'll making catching up easier for us replacements, and give the town the focus it needs to actually scum-hunt in a meaningful way.

Pile aboard.

[archaebob]

@ Looker -

My arguments are not based on "personality conflicts". My argument is based on the idea that we should prioritize creating an environment that favors town, rather than one that favors scum. Here's what I mean:

Environment that favors town:

-mostly active posters: makes it impossible for lurker scum to slip by
-mostly coherent posters: makes slip ups and contradictions more noticeable when they occur
-a cooperative town with focused bandwagons: forces scum to stake out their positions for or against major lynch wagons, meaning they have to either bus, justify not being on the wagon that lynches scum, or justify having been on the mislynch wagon. This makes it very difficult for scum to avoid to revealing which players they give special treatment to, and provides all sorts of juicy opportunities for contradictions and misrepresentations.
-less posters: narrows down the amount of players that the town have to go read in iso before they can have an opinion. decreases the chore of playing, and increases the motivation to play well.

A town that has all the traits mentioned above is a very hostile environment for scum, because they are required to survive under close scrutiny, and have to fit in convincingly with the uninformed scum-hunting of the town.

Environment that favors scum:

-inactive posters: lurker scum can say "well why don't you find

him

suspicious as well!" no way to differentiate between lurker scum and inactive town. Since you can't just policy lynch all the lurkers, the scum can count on slipping by.
-incoherent posters: significantly raises the threshold by which a contradiction or a bad case can be judged. No way to differentiate between stupid and scummy. Also, the town quickly fills up with fluff and convolution, making it difficult for a town player to go back through the thread and form theories in an efficient manner. Leads to disinterest, and further convolution.
-unfocused town, with four or five tiny, ineffectual wagons: makes it impossible to keep a coherent narrative of town discussion in mind. Favors tunneling, and allows bad cases and contradictions to go under the radar more than they would otherwise. Leads to inappropriately long days that further unmotivate the town and make research later on much more difficult.
-more posters: more people to look at, so less scrutiny for individuals to contend with. slipping by is easy for scum.

This game so far has been overwhelmingly an environment that favors scum. Lynching Sanjay, regardless of his flip, will contribute to an environment that favors scum, and not one that favors town. Now, if he was confirmed scum, I'd say that it'd be worth it. Only problem is, he isn't. Because of how strongly this particular game would benefit from becoming more town friendly, I think a policy lynch of the most useless player is justified. From what I've seen, KoC is easily the winner of the title (and I actually think he's the scummiest as well).

So, basically, given the town's fundamentally uninformed perspective, and the fact that this thread is a big mess, lynching KoC is substantially more pro-town than lynching Sanjay.

Choo choo time. Chug a chug. C'mon, DUE IT.

[archaebob]

By the way, I'm totally down with archaebob being under some fire for his opinion, if only because I'm little taken aback with him not being totally down to lynch me. He knows why.

Lol.

I honestly don't know what to do with you Sanjay. I can't automatically push for your lynch in every game I play with you.

That being said, you actually have not at all activated my gut in this game. I'll have to take a look at the actual evidence against you at some point, but right now I'm more interested in my pretty theory about environments.

@ Looker -

If we can lynch KoC today, I swear that I will look super closely at the evidence against Sanjay tomorrow. He's established himself as an active poster, so if he's scum, he's not going anywhere. Let's lynch the useless lurker, let somebody be NK'd, and then really get down to business tomorrow with a manageable, effective town.

[archaebob]

If you want a faster response from KoC, looker, I suggest you hop on board.

@ KoC-

C'mon, cut the crap, and post something. Don't waste your time, or time will waste you.

[archaebob]

@ Sanjay -

What do you think about my theory regarding good environments?

What do you think of KoC?

[archaebob]

danakillsu, this is pathetic.

[archaebob]

i don't currently have any reasons to not think that's mafia, but the reason that you just gave was pathetic.

where has cydonia been? He has entirely avoided any pressure of any kind by just voting. Are you seeing this Looker? Where is KoC?

[archaebob]

seems no one wants lynch KoC today...

vote DKU

Same exact logic as before, applies equally to DKU. I'm very disappointed that knives got replaced.

I'm mostly doing this to prevent Sanjay from being lynched. I really take issue with the way Looker is managing this right now, especially since I'm not caught up enough in this thread to evaluate it fully.

My attention is completely and utterly on another game right now, so I don't expect to be back here again until Day 2.

[archaebob]

arch needs to move is vote in his next post

Yeah k whatever, I just noticed this. Not really sure who you think you are, but meh, I guess you got what you wanted.

Can I ask why this mattered to you?

[archaebob]

ok, i guess I see the logic here, Furry.

@ everyone - if KoC doesn't move his vote over to DKU really soon, can we all of us adjourn this nonsense and quickhammer him as we should? This game would benefit enormously, as I've said, from cleaning up lurkers, and this is just ridiculous.

[archaebob]

Still prefer Sanjay to any other vote. DKU is close behind, though.
Do not appreciate current mentality of town, which seems to be "If SJ is scum, KoC is bussing scum... if SJ is town, KoC is still scum." Seems like certain people have already decided they want me lynched, regardless of alignment. These people should be watched.

Ok, this is ridiculous. KoC needs to die, and it's taking a lot of self-control to let him get away with this.

If you all can like, suddenly agree to switch to KoC, I am so totally down for an epic bandwagon hop.

I'm not going to be on anymore tonight...i'm already being irresponsible actually, and I need to do some school work. If tomorrow night isn't after deadline, I'll check back in again then.

[archaebob]

oh snap...DKU is the final replacement peabody? I completely missed that.

in my read of the first 10 pages, peabody was overwhelmingly the scummiest to me.

i definitley want DKU lynched now.

[archaebob]

Looker, please...this is just adding more junk to the thread.

There is really no justification for needing Sanjay lynched

today

, as opposed to later. Can you just hammer DKU and let us get on with it?

That being said, i'm through with my other game, so this thread is about to get my full attention. And jesus christ, there is so much fucking

crap

in this game to sift through.

[archaebob]

I need to see the case on Sanjay. if you've already posted it, please link me. my read of Day 1 gave him a strong town read, and everything he posts continues to fit this image. i assume there must be some critical section of the game that I'm not paying attention to, so I would appreciate some comprehensive summaries of what the hell is going on here.

my gut is honestly getting the scummiest vibes from semi-old guy and looker. but again, I need to see if the case on Sanjay justifies the absolute self-assuredness that I'm seeing here.

vote: semi-old guy

[archaebob]

Nothing in particular drives me to suspect you. It's just that your total assuredness that Sanjay is scum, from like the midpoint of the game, doesn't seem plausible to me. Again, that's why I asked for your case.

I do not intend to vote Sanjay until I see what the evidence against him is. At the moment, I'm more concerned with being difficult for the people who have control of the game, regardless of alignment. I've found that a certain amount of deadlock, as in politics, is good for the town. So, because I have no strong convictions yet, I'm choosing to go against the grain, and vote for the person whose behavior i am least equipped to justify. Should you or he wish to equip me, I will gladly reconsider.

I've read the whole game, but not thoroughly by any stretch of the imagination. i do not at

all

intend to revisit Day 1 unless a specific argument is made concerning it, and i would prefer some direction as to what look for in Day 2. I expect that I'll ultimately have to crack down and really comb the thread, but i don't really feel like it right now.

So...convince me that Sanjay is scum.

[archaebob]

@ looker -

i was never on Zaz at all. i recommended a pressure wagon in exactly one post of mine, and then never brought it up again. I don't know what you are talking about.

and please, don't begin by immediately undermining my rationality. i assure you, logic is among my most used mistresses. right now, I don't see anything that inincriminates Sanjay, and the burden is on you to motivate me to go and find it.

@ Bigbear -

That's interesting. Can you link me?

[archaebob]

looker, if you don't try and justify yourself, my suspicions will be moving to you extremely rapidly. I need to be able to explain your position from a pro-town mindset. right now I can't do that. trying to convince me is not going to insult my intelligence, but thinking you can get away with glib inserts like your last post

does

.

please, i am asking nicely. convince me that sanjay is scum.

[archaebob]

archaebob, you didn't really strike me as a very gut driven player and I don't seem to remember you expressing a strong town read on me yesterday.

Tell me about that.

If you've read any of my metas (and I know that you have read

all

of them), then you know that gut is an integral part of my play. I generally look for the solid evidence before committing myself to one wagon, but gut certainly manifests itself heavily in who I decide to pay attention to when I'm still figuring things out. In the absence of solid evidence, I'm doing what I think is strategically beneficial (going against the grain) and what appeals to my gut the most (questioning the people who don't seem interested in explaining themselves).

[archaebob]

Vote Count

Sanjay (3)

- semioldguy looker BigBear
semioldguy

(1)

- Sanjay archeabob

Not voting: DeathRowKitty Furry havingfitz

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Bold

indicates the current person who will be lynched when deadline is reached.

The italicized confuses me.

[archaebob]

@ semioldguy -

Please...

I'm

asking you for the explanation. Can you link me to where you outlined your case against Sanjay, or at least reiterate it?

[archaebob]

I resent people who breadcrumb. It defeats the purpose of the game, and I think it should be as against the rules as quoting the whole goddamm thing.

@ Looker -

I do not understand why you continue to resist making a case against Sanjay. A comprehensive, cited, document would do wonders for town discussion right now.

[archaebob]

looker, if you actually want to win, and you are actually convinced that Sanjay is scum, then it is in your interest to win my vote.

your linked post is not a case. it's a mildly interesting but generally shoddy refutation of Sanjay's attempts to defend himself.

I need to be taken through an analysis of Sanjay's play that draws serious attention to the things he has done that he supposedly wouldn't have done as town. Until someone does that, or until someone does something really dumb, my vote is going to stay on semi-old guy.

Right now, I'm not at all convinced by you. I need to go through the posts that SOG kindly linked for me before I can make a statement about him, but so far, I'm really suspicious of the wagon on Sanjay.

[archaebob]

@ looker -

just realize that you are being extremely unproductive with this attitude.

you have said you aren't willing to actually try to win my vote. therefore you are in effect

requiring

me to "ride your opinion". i don't plan to do that. I plan to be convinced by someone who can present themselves in a logical, helpful way.

[archaebob]

I'm really terribly sorry about this, but I don't have a way to play this game. I've wanted to replace out for quite some time, but decided not to, as I saw how many other people were getting replaced, and didn't want to contribute to that. This was irresponsible, and I really do apologize.

The truth is, i'm in a very critical part of my studies right now, and I've allowed mafia to take up far more time then is appropriate. My irresponsibility is beginning to take its toll on my grades, and on my personal organization in general. I'm taking a break from the site until I get over this hump in my schooling.

This is probably the worst game I could have possibly been in right now for doing what I'm doing, but unfortunately, I think its necessary. As some of you have noticed, I'm not really even playing the game, and I think you stand to be better off if I just admit that I have no time or energy for this. I want you all to know that this does not in anyway whatsoever represent my play, and that I feel terrible for needing to do this. Kreriov, I hope you can forgive me for this but,

i need to replace out

.