Mini 1265: Wickedestjr's Mini Normal- Game Over

[Odysseus]

We have received and understand our role PM.

[Odysseus]

Vote: Soben

Vote: Soben

Eat it.

[Odysseus]

IT IS CRY

[Odysseus]

Uphill is town.

unvote, unvote

vote katty bard

vote katty bard

[Odysseus]

Because Uphill aggression reads as town, and he has already brought up some good points against you.

Also, he isn't voting Soben anymore and it was an RVS vote (pretty sure) to start out with so youre pretty much not accomplishing anything with that stance.

One of you and Tim are probably scum, both your pushes on him seem really fucking forced. Not to mention Uphill is 100% right, all you did was spit theory there. However Retro and I discussed it and Time <-> Kat interactions already make that pair very unlikely, I highly doubt they would both push this aggressively on the same person. So wha we have right now is

0-1 scum in Kat/Time, fairly sure there's 1 there.

Uphill is town.

Carry on.

[Odysseus]

Retrospective this time, sup Soben - No reaction to 'IT IS CRY'? :<

What good points? The only point was IIoA, which doesn't fit here because the information was very relevant.

VOTE: Odysseus

I'm pretty sure the s in points was a typo considering uphill only said one reason but this would be a good place to expand on our Katty read.
1) Some of you are calling Katty's IIoA relevant and for those of you who have, I ask if you actually read what the post carefully. Some of you are saying just because the information was semi-relevant and because she used the word scum that the tell has no merit. You are wrong and even if the post was relevant, the tell still holds true as there in no analysis. Maybe we should take a second look at what Katty said:

also, random lynches (and policy lynches especially) are bad, you rarely learn anything. More often than not, randomlynching hits a townie and is driven by scum + sheeptown who don't want to no-lynch.

Unless, of course, said scum is clumsy-herpin', in which case it's not random and scum gets lynched

Starts out stating the obvious information saying "RL and policy lynches are bad" and follows up with something some of you are praising relevant: I disagree. This is completely theory/information without analysis and should point her to lynching us rather than Uphill considering the fact that it was us who started the Soben wagon and if anyone tries to call Uphill's vote anything other than sheep RVS you're either dumb or lying. So I ask you again, this is relevant? It's not even factual. Katty used this post to 'explain to the masses why Uphill is scum' when in fact it implies that he is sheeptown. Ironically, this IIoA applies to her pushing on Uphill more than what she used it for. And that should answer redtail's question as this /is a good point./

2) The above quote was AFTER Katty read time's 22 post where he screams he doesn't know how to find scum and that he's talking out of his ass. We refuse to believe that after reading post 22 any player who is actually looking for scum could continue to push on Uphill. Katty actually agreed and built upon it. The only way I could see this play from a town perspective is if Katty was RVS'ing/fishing for reactions which brings us to our next point.

3)

lol you're just reaching now. My post was designed to explain to the masses why you are scum.

She wasn't...

So Katty is apparently experienced enough to have a RL/Policy lynch theory while showing no ability to find real scum. Have you noticed that almost every player who has posted since this has called Uphill town and marveled at how bad Time's 22 post was? Why not Katty? Why did Katty build upon it with faulty IIoA that applies to her more than her target?

That is why we are voting Katty and why unless something massive happens, we will not stop.

------

Timeeater and Katty fighting sounds more like a townie fight to me at the moment. Dunno.

VOTE: el_simo for old-times sake

I'm more inclined to think of you and Katty Bard as town-fighting at the moment

Does anyone else think this kid isn't reading? Town-fighting? When have they even remotely disagreed? They're buddying each other... He later posts a quote of ours where we say that one of Katty/Time are scum and the other is town. I think he saw that and made the assumption that it was because they were arguing each other and posted without reading anymore of the thread. I can't think of any other logical reason for him to come to this conclusion if he had actually read but Slaxx and I have conflicting views on which alignment this points to so I'll elaborate on this more when I reach him.

-----

I was about to say Time have redeemed himself a little bit with his push on treznor in recent posts and perhaps I was wrong about him being a VI until I read what he said about Uphill again.

That's weird, I could have sworn that post doesn't mention my alignment even once. Now you're saying you posted it to explain why I am scum?

KATTY LYNCH

FULL THROTTLE

NO EXCUSES

Are you serious with this?

You guys are seriously seeing this as noobtown and not noobscum?

I'd say he's neither because he doesn't strike me as a noob at all. You on the other hand...

-----

More later.

[Odysseus]

Offtopic post of awesome: Hi, DH! Do you remember me? We played awhile ago in a game with Slaxx and el simo. (In case you didn't see it from my wall of text, I'm Retrospective)

[Odysseus]

I think you can probably tell from my tone when I was talking about it that I though it was pretty scummy and Slaxx said he thought it was slightly town. Although with his most recent post saying that he didn't read I'd say he null.

Also what does the (S->W) mean?

And is this against hydra etiquette to say what each of us thought and explain our discusses? I feel like it's kind of unfair for scum because it shows that we're actually scumhunting and not just bullshitting reads because we have inconsistencies.

[Odysseus]

explain our discussions*

[Odysseus]

I may not not the terminology MS uses because I'm new here but that doesn't change the fact that most of what you've posted is borderline garbage. So I will call you VI until you can prove that you're not a liability.

I'd also like you to explain your Uphill read. Do you actually believe you were correct in post 22?

Votecount 1.3:

Katty Bard - [3] - Uphill, Odysseus, Soben
treznor - [3] - Timeater, bionicchop2, DemonHybrid
Odysseus - [2] - ScreamingHawk, redtail896
Timeater - [1] - el simo
Uphill - [1] - Katty Bard
el simo - [1] - Gen_Wolf


Not Voting - [2] - Yonzy, treznor

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to no-lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2011-11-09 11:01:07)

[Odysseus]

I thought it was apparently obvious that Uphill was trying to spark discussion. Because of him we exited RVS faster than I've ever seen before.

[Odysseus]

@Timeater; You've actually strengthened two of my reads. The first being that you're still VI but town nonetheless and the second is my read on Uphill. It's actually kind of amusing how much we disagree with everything you just posted. We read it as Uphill creating waves. The only way I could see Uphill as scum is if he is extremely experienced and said those things so people would get the 'too scummy to be scum'. He pretty much screamed look at me, I'm doing something that no one could ever agree with, discuss it. You've named him noob mafia a number of times but you see noob mafia openly challenging you and thrusting all eyes on him on game start? Also the all caps 'FULL THROTTLE, NO EXCUSES' part is absolutely a towntell for us because it's exactly how we were reacting to Katty's posts too. I kid you not, I'll screenshot the text messages after the game if you don't believe me.

Time, we've given you more than enough content for you to formulate a read on us, so let's have it.

DH, Why do you think Time is scum over Katty?

Soben, What prompted you to read Time's past games? I felt like his posts in this game were painful enough that I wouldn't want to subject myself to more...

treznor; You replied to part of the post that contained my case against Katty, no opinion? Do you still think treznor is town now that he's pushing on you so hard? How do you read DH? Preedit says you buy Time's version of noob uphill. After reading mine, have you changed your mind? Why/why not?

[Odysseus]

lol, I'm sorry time. You keep yelling how you're super great and how dare so and so challenge the almighty you and say stuff like "Okay, cant expect everyone to be as empathic as I am" and then your posts don't support it at all. I'll try to be nicer and keep my VI comments to myself if you wanna stay.

[Odysseus]

Where/why did you almost vote timeeater?

Also I'm sorry but I don't think you will like my playstyle. Believe it or not, I've already had to hold back my two cents like 3 times already. I know MS doesn't like giant walls of text for every post so I'm really trying to dial it down. (Retro)

[Odysseus]

@el simo; Here you go: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15298 - If people wanna skim this game for meta: DH was scum, Slaxx was town, el simo was town and I was town

[Odysseus]

Ooh, explain your DH read too please

[Odysseus]

Okay so I've been waiting to out my reads because I wanted to go over everything with Slaxx but I now realize he can just do what Soben did if he disagrees with me, so here goes.

Funfact: I'm actually am really sick so you should feel sorry for me more than you feel sorry for Katty. :3

Clear is 10, confirmed scum is 1

Uphill: 8

, I've already made my case for why I think Uphill is town. Most of it can be read in post 92. (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3542452) My read on Uphill started out at about a nine but his lack of content and the fact that he unvoted Katty absolutely docked him a point. I can follow the reason behind his recent vote but I am puzzled why he unvoted her at all. The way I see it, lynching scum is lynching scum and nothing bionicchop2 has done has been more scummy than Katty and Katty hasn't done anything to redeem herself. This is heightened by the fact that he did this after my case on her. No one really expressed a disagreement with it so I assume you at least thought some of it was valid so I'm am a bit puzzled why there aren't more Katty votes but that's another topic.

Soben: 8

, Soben's play probably deserves higher than this but to speak plainly, I am afraid of him. I'd like to think I had the ability to read him back when we played EM together almost everyday but I haven't spoken to him in six months prior to this game and this is a different mafia format. I want to tell you what I do know about Regfan (Scumhunter is actually a harder read because I don't know him as well). He is one of the most logical people I know and his town play always reflects this. His biggest fault is the fact that his townplay is so good that as scum he can't afford to be as good because his lynches can't be correct. The best way to read him is wait for him to push on someone, if said person towntells even a little and Reg doesn't react to it or unvote, he's probably scum. When the person he's leaning on starts to towntell he almost always tunnels and get louder. I'm pretty sure this is because he wants to distract you from the fact that the person towntelled. If he's lynching scum, he's usually a lot more laid back and just piles on the logic (this is what I think he's done this game). The reason why I'm telling all of you this even though he can read it is because I don't think that he'll be able to NOT do this even if he knows we're watching. Because he's so good, there's just this gap that you can't fill because as scum your lynch targets must be wrong to win. Now the reason I say his play deserves a high town read is because he has been very open about his reads. He's been quick to assign townreads and scumreads which reads as legitimate scumhunting. And when probed for his reasoning, I feel that he's always had legitimate reasons that have swayed me into thinking like him. I really like how his early reads mirrored how Slaxx and I were feeling and when this happens it's usually a sign of us being on the same team. I also like Scumhunter's addition because the reads I didn't completely agree with Regfan on, he didn't either. That's all I can give you. His play probably deserves a 9 but I'm a chicken and I don't want to call him almost clear town and be wrong because I know I'd never hear the end of it. And god knows this post wont help his self image...

Timeater/replacement: 7

, I made my opinion of Time's ability to play pretty obvious. He is terrible but I think he is town because of his unwarranted confidence and his egotistic demeanor. You would be hard pressed to find a post that he did not compliment his scumhunting ability or is knowledge of the game and I question if he would be able to keep this up as scum knowing he'd be proven wrong. I feel like only town could play as badly as him and still believe he is some scumhunting god to be reckoned with. Imo, a scum player would know their partners and not even dream of making a post like 22 because it is seriously one of the worst posts I've seen in forum mafia and I've played with Hira. (Inside joke for Soben/Slaxx) Basically what I am badly articulating is if he was scum, he would have known that Uphill was town and I think that making a horrid semantic post backed with limitless confidence wouldn't be possible in his play book because he's too impressed with himself to let him be /that/ wrong. There's a small chance all of this is his horrid personality and even though I really don't want to glance at his other games, I feel like I must now to make sure he's not just some self conceited asshole. Good riddance.

treznor: 7

, I really didn't back a treznor townread until I read Soben's last post (The post from Scumhunter). At first I read him as scum because I couldn't see a town perspective for not reading the game carefully and throwing out townreads that he couldn't believe in because he didn't read. When he openly admitted that he hadn't been reading/reading carefully, I brought him back up to null because I didn't know what to do with him at that point. He would still be null right now if Scumhunter didn't make me aware that of his calm attitude. He absolutely backed down from his simo vote but when reading it again, he didn't seem like he was afraid when he did it. He didn't seem like he was worried that it was a scumtell that might have got people on his case and he's been extremely calm throughout the game even though I disagree with a lot of things he said. Mimicing Scumunter, his calm and unworried attitude gives him a seven. I want to add that if Katty ends up being town, my read on treznor will plummet because I could see scum knowing Katty is town and therefore making the town/town argument without reading. trez, when I asked you about your Katty read you said that you follow me a bit but feel like my case centered around her providing too much information to be town. I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion but I'd like you to read my case on her again because I don't think you got just what was scummy about it.

DemonHybrid: 6

, DH strikes me as vaguely town for the reasons Soben has already said. I'm not really focusing on trying to read DH because Slaxx said that he is an easy read for him so I figured I'd just refer to him. (We had this deal when we made this hydra that he'd trust my read on Soben and I'd trust his read on DH and el simo)

Redtail896: 6

, Redtail is barely above null. I liked when all of this discussion was on Katty, Uphill and Time, he voted us. At first we wondered if he did this to defend Katty a bit. (We were calling Katty scum so voting us would discredit us a little bit) but when I elaborated on my case he instantly unvoted and said that it had merit. The reason this struck me as town because as I understand MS players, they do not unvote often. They usually keep their vote until they find a better place to put it. So I assume that after our case, he read us as too town to remain voting. Yes, I understand that I may be reading too much into this and this read might not translate to other players but whatever.

ScreamingHawk: 5

, I wanted to put this guy at the top of my nulls because he is probably the closest of the nulls to tipping town. This was more or less a gut read based on the little content he's given. Something about saying 'what's up son' or whatever he said after voting trez made me feel like he's very welcome to pressure and has a somewhat calm attitude.

Yonzy: 5

, I've got nothin'. This is too early in the game for me to ISO players and he hasn't stood out at all.

Gen_Wolf: 5

, Who?

Bionicchop2: 5

, Bionicchop is here because I honestly don't know what to do with him. He strikes me as a very experienced player who knows what he's doing. I don't like some of the content he's provided and I agree with Regfan's post about him picking on the lurky guy who didn't focus on the current discussion while doing the same himself. But at the same time I feel like he's brought too much attention to himself by saying that he doesn't post everything he thinks and he would prefer others would do the same. This is a statement I have a hard time seeing come from scum because I feel like no scum would openly admit that he didn't want everything he could get to formulate reads. This could just be his playstyle and how he always acts/talk but at least for now it was enough to keep him out of the scum side.

el simo: 4

, This guy always reads scum to me. In the game I linked, I spent most of d1 and d2 bouncing between trying to lynch him and another player. This is another person that slaxx said was an easy read but he's less confident in his ability to read him than DH. I haven't seen much of actual context from him aside for apologizing and making excuses for his inability to provide good content. I will say that he frequently apologized for his lack of content/not being around in the other game too and he was town there.

Katty Bard: 2

, I am still just as confident in this read as I was at game start. I've made my case on her and I've been frustrated by what little feedback I've gotten from it. I'm tempted to repost it here without quotes just so you guys have to read it again. Here's the link: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3542195 PLEASE tell me what you think and if you agree, vote her already.




Okay, well those are my reads, Slaxx can post his later. Any questions/comments?

[Odysseus]

DH, I don't feel like him saying flimsy analysis is my meta warrants a vote at all.

Also, this is only my third game on this site so join date/experience doesn't have much to do with alignment.

[Odysseus]

odysseus

- Why did you fake double voter?

IGMEOY

I'm not actually sure. Slaxx wanted to use it to spark discussion and he was looking for who noticed it and thought it was weird and who really focused on it. It didn't really work because you're the only one who commented about it and all the focus was on Uphill/Katty/Time.

[Odysseus]

DH, I think I've explained why I'm so obsessed with that read. You're the one that's disagreeing with it without posting why.

[Odysseus]

UNVOTE:

I've had a migraine all day, so this is going to be very brief and incomplete.

In the current climate, my vote is indeed terrible. My reasoning was that he just straight-up said, "I'm trying to get this person lynched." That doesn't translate into RvS OR generating discussion to me, so I didn't like it. And, as somebody already speculated (sorry, I forget who it was in my skim-through) at the time it was all I had. When I feel better, I'll read deeper into the game and provide a stronger defense than this.

Also, the hypothesis that I'm a semi-weak player but with SOME experience is correct. I've completed a whopping three games off-site and am currently in a fourth.

Quoting this to prove to DH I actually read it. xD

This really did nothing for me.

1) She gave an excuse for limited content. Whether or not the excuse is legit doesn't really matter to me and this didn't factor into my read on her at all.
2) I can agree that is what sparked her vote considering there was not much content other than that. I fully grasp that she didn't have much to work with at this point of the game and is another reason why I find this so scummy. Again non-factor on my read.
3) Yeah, I could already tell that she is semi-experienced with the concept of mafia and it was my hypothesis that she was referring to. Again, non-factor.

So what exactly in this post makes you think she's so town? To me it reads as a nothing post that concedes to what was /now/ popular in the game.

Now I can tell you exactly what I think went down in her head and if she is truthful with herself I bet she would confirm this after the game. Uphill said some things that could be read as scummy. He said that he was trying to lynch Soben on like the third post of the game and he obviously couldn't have a great reason for it. This is where her inexperience comes in, she didn't know that this should not be read as scum because it was obvious RVS. And so she saw this and thought it was easy enough to push on. She then saw Time go freaking berserk about how Uphill was so obvious scum. I don't think she bothered to read Time's post carefully, or really think about if these semantics could actually lead to scum. I think she already knew uphill was town and so knew that anything time said was likewise wrong but he looked so confident that it was safe. At this point, Uphill not only seems like an easy lynch but a safe place to put her pressure because others obviously agree. This is where she IIoA'd. I see IIoA as a much bigger scumtell than the rest of you, obviously. You see it all the time in inexperienced scum players and that is something I think I probably have more experience with dealing with than most of you here considering I've played an embarrassing number of games on EM. (Soben, confirm/deny?) IIoA is used to appear town because it makes you look knowledgeable, like you're adding to the discussion and being helpful even though you have nothing legitimately helpful to say. These are a lot of the surface traits most people attribute to being town and is exactly where scum wants to be. I've already explained how the only relevant part of her quote implies that Uphill was town rather than scum which directly contradicts her vote. This is because she made up some theory to support her comfortable lynch target and didn't bother to put a lot of thought into it. I wouldn't have even analysed the IIoA so closely if it wasn't for her gloat posts naming Uphill obvious/noob scum, saying we should watch to see who he busses and the fact that she was explaining to the masses why Uphill was scum. I read this all as scum pushing on a safe lynch. She never looked more confident than Time so when Uphill is proven town, she would look just fine and she was lynching town. Win-win. Also trying to stay in a safe and comfortable place fits perfectly into the above quoted post.

See why I support it so much yet?
Ben, do you suspect her for a different reason than this?

------

Godamnit, bionicchop2, stop using appreviations. I swear this feels like the eighth time I've had to google what the crap you guys are saying. Is it really that hard to type out "Oh I'm editing above post" or "I've keeping my eye on you"?

-----

Sorry, I'm usually good at posting!

Will post in the morning! Going out now, just a quick question:

What does VI mean??

lol, kind of proud of this so Ima answer. VI is village idiot and the reason why it bothered him so much is because his opinion of himself was unbelievable. Essentially, it's calling him too poor a player to be scum.

[Odysseus]

Slaxx here.

It is still too early to get a lot of good reads, but I'm confident enough to say that both Soben and Tim are town. Probably 9s on Retro's scale.

Strong Town:

Timeater, Soben

Moderate Town:

Uphill

Weak Town:

Demonhybrid, Bioni, Treznor

Null:

Yonzy, Gen, SH

Weak Scum:

El simo, Redtail (Slightly unlikely partners due to this this).

Moderate Scum:

Katty


A couple other fun tidbits:

Bionic/SH pairing is ]unlikely.
DH/SH pairing is unlikely.
Katty/Uphill pairing is very unlikely.
Treznor/Bionic pairing is slightly unlikely.

[Odysseus]

bionicchop2; I don't recongize you. I'm LOLUMAD on EM but I retired a little over six months ago. (Retro)

Sooooooo any opinions on my second case for Katty?

[Odysseus]

@bionicchop2; Hmm...I definitely didn't think of it from that perspective at all. Although, going back and reading her early game posts, she seems presumptuous and doesn't look intimated at all. I absolutely buy her being a bit afraid of what to do now that I've thrown so much heat her way though. Hmm, this shook up my read a bit because now I feel a little sorry for her because I would absolutely feel overwhelmed in her position. If Slaxx is willing and we can find someone else we're almost as sure of being scum as her, I would absolutely support giving her another game day to get her bearings.
I've read read your post a couple times now and I can't figure what side of the spectrum your Katty read is on. If you had to rank Katty on my 1-10 scale, where would you place her?

My reads have shifted a little bit:

Katty: 3

, I've lost a little conviction on Katty that I absolutely wouldn't have if she wasn't a girl but whatever. I'm interested to see how Soben reacts to this.

bionicchop2, 7

, Almost all of his recent play I have trouble seeing from a scum-perspective. And I completely don't see bio coming to Katty's emotional rescue as her partner. There would have been no reason to look for the validity of her inexperience. I find it kind of funny that the second I give you a null-scum read, you instantly start towntelling. Makes me look like a fool :<

DH: 5

, I really don't buy the time scum read and it still bothers me how he doesn't see any merit in my Katty read. For some reason Slaxx thinks he's town though so I'm just going to stop picking my brains over what DH is doing and see if I can figure it out later in the game.

It seems I need to revisit ScreamingHawk's play now that I see bio as probable town.

[Odysseus]

I'm going to try to look at Scream's post from both perspectives and see which one I believe more when I'm finished.

Wow this game has taken off quick. Anywho...

Timeater reads town - aggressive but that's all good.
Treznor reads nub-null / null-scum - opinions are swayed very easy. backing down very quickly. can't handle pressure either becuase new or scum and doesn't want confrontation.
Odysseus reads town - generally nice amount of information for so early on. May need to check his meta later (fill me in if you know)
redtail reads null - why did you unvote someone with only your vote on him (and mine from RVS but who cares) - no harm leaving it there until you have someone else to vote for?
Soben reads town - you seem nice.
Uphill reads town - not much to say here.

Anyone else needs to make a bigger impression.

I'll be back on in hour or so

Town:

I can easily see how someone who did a quick read could get these reads. Maybe it's just because these are very similar to how my reads would have looked at this point of the game, I dunno. I like how many towntells there are here and I feel like scum would be reluctant to give so many so early in the game.

Scum:

This is pretty much the popular/safe reads that most people have in this game at this point. It'd be easy to pick up on these from reading because not many of us were cryptic with our fos's. He doesn't provide a lot of information for each of his reads and stuff like 'you seem nice.' isn't a legitimate read at all. Now that I look closely asking why redtail unvoted is a non-factor too. He says other people need to leave a bigger impression when he barely makes a splash himself here or later in the game. Addition after full ISO: He did not mention Katty here at all even though he mentioned everyone else involved in that content. He also says that people not listed didn't make an impression and I find that very hard to believe considering the fact that we (mostly me) are still talking about it.

Also should chuck this in UNVOTE: VOTE: Treznor
Wassup son?

Town:

Creating a bit of a splash with the 'come at me, bro' line. I thought trez was pretty scummy at this point in the game because his reasoning for his vote/unvote were very weak so I can follow how he got here.

Scum:

Not much to say here. I guess this could be leading on a relatively easy lynch and there's nothing groundbreaking about any reads or this vote.

Rather than quoting this block, I'll just link it: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3542677

Town:

I like how he responded to the argument against him by bringing up Soben's list of reads. This made it look like he was actually reading/scumhunting. I really like his closing statement to this post where he said that his read felt stronger during his skim and fell apart a bit during the ISO.

Scum:

He claimed to ISO but only quoted/commented about one post. The only thing he said about this post is something that both Time and I had said prior to this. He said he skimmed so it's highly likely he thought this would be a safe place for his vote and something that he could withdraw or build on at a later point.

@bionicchop2 - I wanted meta on you before I came to any conclusion.

@Odys - ty for game link.

Town:

He said thanks for me giving him meta?

Scum:

Why is every third word that comes out of this guys mouth meta? Can he not scumhunt without comparing current play to past play? Usually someone asking for meta looks a bit town because it shows that they are willing to go the extra mile and read games that have no impact on their current game to try to get a better understanding of playstyle/reads. SH has brought up meta like 4 times now yet has had absolutely nothing to show for it.

Hi FightingShadow. Any comments?

Are we really going to get this in depth about the headache thing? Sounds a bit extreme. Also as I side not, the passive aggressive sounding in that post was probably a symptom of said migraine. I know it would be for me.

And Soben... I'm already begining to regret my words...

Town:

He brings up an okay point to defend Katty. And I guess he's nice to the newcomer?

Scum:

Whoa, I just noticed something! Katty has been a big part of the discussion in this thread so far and this is the first time SH mentions anything to do with her. (He said her name once before but it was when about trez being scum) Here he fights probably the weakest part of the Katty case but still does not provide any good content in which we could figure out his read on Katty. I'd say that SH is a very likely Katty patner.

Overall:

This rose a lot of questions for me, certainly enough for me to drop him out of the null range into the scum range.
Questions for SH:
1) Based on the amount and value of your content to this point, would you have made it onto your list of reads after a skim or would you be one of the people who needs to make more of an influence? Why?
2) Why didn't you list a read on Katty?
3) What is your read on Katty?
4) You voted treznor but conceded to the fact that your case was weak. Soben and I have both provided reads where we analyze his play and he ended up townsided. Do you agree with this? Why haven't you talked about it considering the fact that he is your lynch target and you've posted active-lurk posts since then?

-------

And holy fucking shit I need to stop posting, I am completely taking over this game. Okay, I promise I wont post again until at least three or four people post good posts that have relevant content.

[Odysseus]

As far as the bionicchop2/treznor battle (starts here), I agree that the treznor's vote took me by surprise because I really didn't get the feeling that he was a Katty-lynch supporter from previous posts. I now realize that he didn't read bionicchop's latest Katty post giving her the perspective of afraid town. I can follow why bio voted treznor but at the same time I disagree with him. trez did a good job of refuting his point and I'm interested to see what bio will do next after that post.

------

As far as Yonzy's reads go, I'm not sure where this would put on my scale. I really need to see him interact with the current content before I can get a real read on him. His redtail read raised my eyebrow because I have a hard time not seeing Soben or I as most town. After reading redtail's post, I wonder if he misread and if hey'll correct this in his next post. I also found it interesting that he had 5 scum reads when I'm pretty sure there are only 3 scum. I'm not sure if or how this would be alignment telling though.

------

When I ISO'd Screaming, I was feeling pretty confident that he was scum and Katty's partner. He did a good job answering my questions and I've yet to make a decision.

------

el simo; First of all the fact that you said you would analyze a case and then posted several times after only saying that you hadn't done it yet is a little scummy. I'm a bit baffled as to why you said that I hopped on your wagon when I specifically stated that you did something similar last game as town. Giving you a very weak scumread = hopping on the wagon? You seem to be basing a lot of your reads on other players based on what they've done about you and you need to take a step back and see that anyone would be wary of you based on your play before this post. With that said, your overreaction feels legitimate. As far as the rest of your post goes, I disagree with Time because of what I've already stated multiple times and I think that whole section of your post can be wrote off as he is just a really bad player. (If you read later than this, his replacement even agrees). I've liked what you've said about Katty here and I appreciate the compliment!
Also your hybrid comment reads as frustrated town and I completely understand. I would however like you to explain what parts I've seen town and what part of Slaxx's post made you feel otherwise. Also, if it makes you feel any better, I don't think I will ever hydra again because I feel like all it's doing is holding me back. I want to say what I read and how it makes me feel and I feel like all of the value from discussing reads with Slaxx can be gained by doing the same with the rest of the players inside the game...
el simo definitely got some town points here and I'd put him on a 6 or 7 on my scale atm.

------

Now for what's really frustrating me. treznor STILL isn't reading.

FightingShadow, 2 points:
1) You'll need to bold your unvote if you want it to count.
2) Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature as then we can't tell what's going on, especially if I don't specifically remember that someone else said that already.

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above.

Number one is referring to this post where FightingShadow accidentally copied Katty's last post. FS even said at the top of his next post that he didn't mean to post it. I have three huge problems with this.
1) treznor didn't recongize this as Katty's and that was a couple pages ago meaning he wasn't reading then.
2) This post makes absolutely no since from either Time or Fighting's PoV and that should have struck trez as odd but the only thing he posted about it is that he didn't bold the unvote. Still not reading/not really looking?
3) He didn't read the second post closely enough to even see FS apologising for this miss-post.
4) trez's second point is absolutely horrid and it doesn't matter if a post is linked or not.
I don't know what to do about this because I still have a bit of a townread on trez but he is obviously not giving us real reads. simo, is this consistent with his meta? It's one thing to not have enough time to read but it's a whole different animal to post multiple times per page but be proven at mutliple times during the game to not be reading... I know this is harsh but trez, you either need to shape up or ask for replacement because we deserve better than what you've been giving.

-----

I'll get into el simo/redtail dicussion later.

[Odysseus]

To make it even worse, he's currently voting Katty. So he hasn't even been reading his lynch target's post. I still think Katty is likley scum but there's too much doubt and this makes me feel really uneasy, so UNVOTE: Katty for now.

Fuck, I'm sorry. I posted on my actual account without realizing it. This was from me but just so it's in my own words UNVOTE: Katty

[Odysseus]

I have a question for pretty much everyone: Why do you think trez isn't reading and which fucking alignment would do this?

I can't make any sense of it at all and it is driving me completely crazy. The surface level scum motive is pretty obvious in that he could already know everyone's alignment so he is just skimming and posting based on having more knowledge than the rest of us. And now that I think about it, after I've been pushing so hard on Katty he could now view it as a safe lynch... But at the same time, he has the second highest post count in this thread and I don't understand why he would allow himself to post so often knowing full well it wouldn't hold under scrutiny? I feel like as scum this would be suicide because he's basically screaming hey look, I don't know what I'm talking about and posting that over and over again. And why would he openly admit to not reading and just making an assumption from one of my post as scum? There's no way he could have thought town would have reacted in his favor from that type of post. Am I misreading his honestly and calm demeanor for towntells?
And the town perspective doesn't work either because why would a town player inject themselves into town discussion while throwing empty reads/responses in which he would have to know don't hold any water. He would just be stubbing all of our toes each time he posts.

I mentioned earlier that if Time/Katty are both town, I could see this kid being scum and I'm starting to backstep on my Katty scumread just because it feels like so long ago and I may have tunneled just a little bit... I think the scum perspective on her early game play makes more since than the town, but it's no longer strong enough for lynching material now we're half way through d1. I'm not getting much from her ISO reads other than I liked the fact she didn't trust DH for calling her town. But at the same time she says that I put a lot of thought, time and effort into my posts and the majority of them were calling her scum. Does this mean she agrees with me on them? Would self-incrimination tell apply here?

Katty: If you were in my position, would you have pushed on yourself as I did?


Someone else do some scumhunting, I feel broken.

[Odysseus]

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above. Number one is referring to this post where FightingShadow accidentally copied Katty's last post. FS even said at the top of his next post that he didn't mean to post it. I have three huge problems with this.
1) treznor didn't recongize this as Katty's and that was a couple pages ago meaning he wasn't reading then.
2) This post makes absolutely no since from either Time or Fighting's PoV and that should have struck trez as odd but the only thing he posted about it is that he didn't bold the unvote. Still not reading/not really looking?
3) He didn't read the second post closely enough to even see FS apologising for this miss-post.
4) trez's second point is absolutely horrid and it doesn't matter if a post is linked or not.

Treznor specifically called Fighting's post a quote:

"Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature"

. eg, he recognized Fighting's post as a quote of Katty's and asked Fighting to use the quote tags to make it more clear where the quote begins and ends. How are you coming to the conclusion that he didn't recognize it as a quote? And seeing as how Fighting's botch is at the end of the page and the fixed version is on the next page, I'd bet all the money that Trez just didn't notice there was another page.

I'm doing a complete 180 on Katty here after reading 186. I just can't see that post being illegitimate. Katty is town.

Treznor is town. I don't buy the argument that he contradicted himself re: IIOA, and 165 is another good example of townposting.

Odysseus, Redtail, Soben, Yonzy all read town.

Bionic still reads scum.

el simo reads scum. The way he called my jump on Bionic good, without having mentioned Bionic anywhere else, comes off as phony appeasement.

If neither of those two are the lynch today I'd be okay with lynching GenWolf or ScreamingHawk, or to a lesser extent DemonHybrid or Fighting.

You're wrong, Uphill. FS used quotes for his big post but he didn't have the part that links to the post that the quote was taken from. That is what treznor was talking about when he asked to use the quote feature. I know this because there's no other way that his bolding the unvote comment makes sense otherwise. FS never unvoted, he only voted trez and the only time it looked even remotely like that was when he accidentally copied Katty's post. Further proof that he's not reading can be found by the fact that Katty's post was actually in FS's big post and trez still didn't notice.

[Odysseus]

SH, could you elaborate on the trez/me pair thing? I am completely baffled how you reached that conclusion.

More later, about to watch a movie with my gf

[Odysseus]

Slaxx here.

Lynch that one.

/points to SH

unvote, votes SH

.

[Odysseus]

For those of you who didn't catch it.

"Treznor is my scummiest read.
If Treznor is Scum, Odysseus is likely scum too
Odysseus is town in my book"

yeah no

One down. 1-2 to go. Easy mode time.

Votecount 1.8:

Katty Bard - [3] - Soben, treznor, el simo
treznor - [3] - FightingShadow, ScreamingHawk, bionicchop2
el simo - [2] - Gen_Wolf, redtail896
ScreamingHawk - [2] - DemonHybrid, Odysseus
bionicchop2 - [1] - Uphill
DemonHybrid - [1] - Yonzy

Not Voting - [1] - Katty Bard

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to no-lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2011-11-09 11:01:07)

[Odysseus]

Sorry. I'll try to be more cryptic unless someone asks me to explain stuff.

Uphill, I see what you mean and it makes me feel better about trez.

Hi soben.

Fucking shit. I typed this on my phone in bed and forgot which login I used. I promise this won't happen again.

[Odysseus]

Annd, of course I break the quote tag after asking someone else to please use the quote tag... aarrrggghhhh.

lol.

Hey trez, I wasn't building a case on you as much as I was just really bothered by it all. Sorry for making the assumption that you weren't reading and thanks to you and Uphill, I see what you were actually saying now.

[Odysseus]

Something for the 'Timeeater is scum' people to think about:
You seem to think his ragequitt was scummy, but I see it completely differently. If you look at why he quit it was because I kept calling him VI. I further explained how no scum would let themselves play as badly as he did because they would know how they would look when they were proven wrong. So I said that even though he was a liability to town, he's town. I think a scum player would have been able to cope with that read much easier than a town player. I think scum would have seen this as town calling him town and ignored the reason all the insults to his play as be content with the idea that people are seeing him as town. This is even heightened by the fact that I wasn't the only one calling him town and I feel like scum him would be in a very comfortable position and wouldn't think of asking for a replacement. The way he reacted each and every time I called him a VI read as legitimate rage to me and I believe that only town-time would be so butthurt about it that he left. A scum player would have KNOWN his play was bad because he would have KNOWN that Uphill was town so this wouldn't have been insulting to his character at all. I mean look how he left 'I have a business to run' was like his last retort saying that he wasn't a VI.

If the time slot is scum, I'll eat my shoe.

[Odysseus]

Hi Chris

[Odysseus]

My scum read on Katty keeps getting weaker and weaker. Lots of little towntells in that post. I'm not gonna explain them unless someone asks to save you from my ramblings although I will say that I don't support a Katty lynch today.

[Odysseus]

I don't see the problem with this.
They are mutually exclusive events.
Ody currently looks town and trenzor looks scum.
IF trenzor FLIPPED scum, then I'd put Ody as a partner. (I should have said flipped in my post)
Until he flips I'm not going to make a complete association joining the two. The would just be stupid.

Why?

I'll do Katty's towntell post in a minute.

Preview edit: SH is now at L-1, don't vote unless you intend to lynch.

[Odysseus]

Okkkkkkayyy so after I read Katty's post I felt like I had been wrong about her at least enough to put her in null. But now that I'm putting my money where my mouth and reading it again, I made it sound like there was something groundbreaking here and there really isn't.

The parts that I liked are when she says that I'm still town if she scum because I couldn't wrap my head around why she would say that as scum. The part about trez being an easy lynch for either faction was good too and it was an odd way of thinking about it and I didn't really see that coming from scum. You know what? Fuck it. I read it on my phone while I was eating soup and it felt a lot stronger than it does now that I'm sitting here trying to explain it. Katty is giving more thoughtful content than others are, especially recently and I prefer that to a lot of my null reads even if she's scum.

SH said that I pretty much backed off when I realized Katty could just be an overwhelmed girl and even though he was trying to make me appear scummy with that, I think that's exactly what happened. Anyway, I'm going to chime out for a little bit because the value of my posts are deteriorating.

[Odysseus]

Ahahaha, That does make me feel better. Thanks Soben.

Yeah, RT, I'm pretty sure you're jumping at nothing there.

Question for everyone: DH said he'd be back soon, don't you think we should wait for him to catch up and give some reads before we lynch SH? I'm not trying to deter from his lynch and I still support it. My DH is read so null and I'd like to have something from him pre-flip to judge him on. Obviously reads change after the flip and NK. So I'd like to get a better handle on where DH is now to compare to later. Also where is Gen?

Mod, have you prodded Gen?

[Odysseus]

Nevermind, just checked and Gen isn't within the prod range he's just annoyingly inactive.

[Odysseus]

Question for everyone: DH said he'd be back soon, don't you think we should wait for him to catch up and give some reads before we lynch SH? I'm not trying to deter from his lynch and I still support it. My DH is read so null and I'd like to have something from him pre-flip to judge him on. Obviously reads change after the flip and NK. So I'd like to get a better handle on where DH is now to compare to later. Also where is Gen?

If you think someone is scum (SH), I see no reason to wait for somebody on that wagon to express that they still want to be there. If you had doubts in your read or were considering voting elsewhere, then sure ask for opinions or something to reinforce your original read. Otherwise, proceed with those who care enough to be active IMO.

SH is getting lynched today unless something drastic happens. So I couldn't care less who is voting SH, I care WHY they are voting. DH is literally voting SH because he said flimsy analysis is his meta. You think that is lynch worthy? I sure as hell don't and that stands true to most people in this game because we didn't vote SH when he said it. And you honestly can't wait half a day to see what DH thinks of what's been happening before it's influenced by flips? I'm tempted to unvote just to spite you because this post annoyed me so much.

[Odysseus]

I'm asking for DH to give us his reads before this day ends, not asking for everyone to go dig through SH and try to prove him town. The scenario you laid out would never happen and you're completely ridiculous.

[Odysseus]

and you're being completely ridiculous.*

[Odysseus]

Bio: I do suspect DH and I guess that came through more than I intended. The main reason I want his reads is because I think he's probably mafia but I need more to judge him on. Don't get me wrong though, I want the SH lynch to go through as well.

[Odysseus]

How do other games take precedence over this one when you were at L-1 for over a day an a half? I don't believe the claim at all. I feel like if he had such a powerful role like that, he would have claimed a long time ago because it's such a trump card. He makes it seem like he's not had the time/ability to post when his last post was only two lines. I think he avoided this because he was defeatist scum who avoided this as long as possible.

Soben, before you talk to Scumhunter, I wanna know why you believe it.

SH, who were you planning on Jailing?

[Odysseus]

OH I COMPLETELY SKIPPED THE WORD AGAINST FOR SOME REASON.

[Odysseus]

Don't hammer yet -- I want DH's promised reads first.

Although, I just read over SH. I feel like a PR would be frustrated about being outted on d1, there is little to no emotion when the votes were piling on. Pretty sure we've hit scum.

[Odysseus]

unvote

Uphill makes a great point, and I noticed the exact same thing. I'm not ready to lynch SH anymore. Retro will probably flip shit, but whatever.

Also, bioni's response to uphill is like...terribad. The part where he throws flak on him just because uphill used the word "mislynch" when it was obvious uphill was speaking from a bioni-scum SH-JK assumption.

Yeah...

I'll talk it over with Retro but I am going to

vote bionic

for now.

[Odysseus]

actually...meh, idk.

unvote

I'll talk with retro first.

[Odysseus]

ಠ_ಠ

VOTE: SH

[Odysseus]

I am so friggin' annoyed.

First of all, bio is my third highest town read.

IMO,
70%: SH scum, Bio town, Uphill town
15%: SH town, Bio town, Uphill town
15%: SH town, Bio town, Uphill whiteknighting scum. I think this is a possibility because Uphills reasons for thinking SH is town are WEAK. Him calling this a misslynch after that claim is unbelievable to me.

283: Good analysis but wrong.
284: Agree.
287: ಠ_ಠ
288: ಠ_ಠ

Obviously I need to talk to Slaxx...

FS: 9
Soben: 8
Bio: 8
Uphill: 6
trez: 6
el simo: 5
gen: 5
yon: 5
KB: 5-4
rt: 4
DH: 4
SH: 2

[Odysseus]

I am going to LOL so hard if this derails.

SH is getting lynched today unless something drastic happens.

Ask yourself what advantage there is for me to push on a JK claim as mafia. If you see me as any sort of reasonable person, the best play for mafia-bionicchop would be to stay quiet and post nothing. I could easily mix into the sea of non-posters. Just because I say stuff that doesn't fit into typical thinking. People treat PRs like they should be worshipped.

Sorry, when I weight the pros and cons of the current situation, lynching SH seems to have more advantages than not.

preview:have to catch up on new posts, but have to get this work thing done 1st.

Bio, I think you're town but this whole post is horrible. I would and have pushed very hard on town PR's (offsite) and looked town after the flip because of it. SH has been scummy to the point that even if he's town, no one will come off worse because of it. Please don't use logic like this.

Also to answer your question about what your scum you would gain from pushing on JK, you'd get two things. 1. JK death, 2. You'd be able to use the logic you just used to try to clear yourself.

------

I'm not even going to try replying to Uphill as I don't think it'd do any good anyway. Also if you guys have any questions about my read list, just ask.

[Odysseus]

Sure.

1. Yeah, and I'm not really seeing much of the merit in the recent posts calling him scum. I know people think I should read into his ragequit/attitude before the quit but oh well.

2. I'm mad at him right now and I think that's effecting my read. xD I also have a hard time thinking town would not want to lynch SH at this point and feel that he's disagreeing to disagree with the majority. His high town read was because of his early game at RVS and the at's faded a lot for me. I will make my mind up on Uphill after I see the SH flip.

3. My read on DH is kind of meh. When I look over his posts, I feel like all of his reasons for voting have always been shallow and based on a single post or even the semantics of that single post. For example, the fact that SH said flimsy analysis is his meta, Time's horrbile 22 post or trez unvoting his RVS after an ounce of pressure. Whenever he changed votes I always found myself thinking that's the only reason? That was okay in early game but now he's completely disappeared. I think that we have a very strong town team in this game and it might be discouraging scum from really putting time into this game. I'm not sure what Slaxx's read on anyone is this point, I haven't had a real conversation with him in days although I now know I disagree with pretty much everything... Do you still have the same reason for thinking DH is town, Soben?

[Odysseus]

Okay, this is going nowhere and getting old fast. Uphill, you're not convincing anyone and we're not convincing you. Okay, that's cool. Because he acted like he didn't see the problems we saw in his reads, he's confirmed town. I couldn't disagree more, but whatever. Good thing we don't need your vote to lynch him. So take a deep breath and we'll see who's right tomorrow. If you're right, (I doubt it) you can gloat and call us all morons.

Are players allowed to prod other players? Like would it be okay if I messaged DH and told him to post his reads so we can move on or is that against the rules?

[Odysseus]

@KB; I wanted to see if he was actually thinking as the role he claimed. We're lynching him anyway so it's not like it matters but if he had been able to prove to me that he was actually playing from JK's perspective, I might be doing a Uphill right now. (lol I made a funny)

[Odysseus]

I'm on site, but I'm doing things and I'll be back later to post. From what I've skimmed, people are waiting on reads from me, but I haven't quite yet read everything since I left for the weekend.

DH made this post 53 hours ago...

[Odysseus]

lol horrible kill.

VOTE: DH

We've got a bunch of new reads and I'm pretty sure we're close to autowin if we're right.

[Odysseus]

Bio: 9
FS: 9
Soben: 9
Uphill: 8
Yonzy: 7
el simo: 6
Katty: 5
Gen: 4
RT: 4
DH: 2

[Odysseus]

This is slaxx.

DH's Screaminghawk vote is characteristic of DH-scum. It was a weak reasoned yet early-bus. We know DH plays scum, fairly well and isn't afraid to bus (See: Mafia in Someplace).

Plus the whole "bus him tim" line is really bad. Scum think way more about that early game than town.

[Odysseus]

lol it seems I'm going to have to explain these. Before I start, sometimes the things that are the most telling are the little side comments people make when they're not trying to towntell or convince someone to do something. They don't have their guard up because they don't expect for you to analyze it. And because of that, you can really get insight on what perspective they're viewing the game from. Keep that in mind when you read Yonzy and simo.

Bio: 9

- I don't think I need to explain this one.

FS: 9

- This is still solely based on Time and reading him as a person. I already explained this yesterday and I understand if it doesn't have to transfer to the rest of you. But just so you guys know, we wont be lynching FS.

Soben: 9

- duh

Uphill: 8

- The fact that he was throwing so much attention his way against a scum wagon makes me think town. Very small chance of scum gambit. Plus there was a little merit in his reason for calling SH even though it was wrong.

Yonzy: 7

- After the flip when I ISO'd Yonzy this reads post is very strong and extremely accurate. I was actually surprised how much the mirrored my own reads after I read through the game again. Small towntell: Look at his read on me, he said 'if you're scum i hate you' and before you say that doesn't mean anything, it does. Ask yourself if you would have added this in as scum knowing that I'm not. What's the purpose? There wouldn't be. He didn't put that there to be alignment telling it was just him being quirky and I'd say that's a town-quirk. But what really set it in stone for us is how he interacted with SH after the claim. Namely laughing at the claim here and asking how he was going to PR hunt here. These are all little things that all pushed me in the town direction. Plus, I cannot see scum asking their partner how they were planning on PR hunting in relation to their JK claim. I just can't.

el simo: 6

- el simo is down here because his play hasn't been particularly strong. But there's something that caught my eye. This one's a bit weird too but my no means weak. In this post, el simo told me that I have improved a lot. At this point in the game, I was all out trying to lynch Katty. I made two cases against her and this would be an extremely loaded, sarcastic, asshole and unproved attack at me as a player if the compliment was illegitimate. In order for this to be illegitimate, el simo would have to be scum with someone other than Katty and he'd have to be a complete and utter dick. (I don't think he is) There would be no scum benefit to fake complimenting someone for all out pushing a ML. As a result, the only scum team el simo can be on is Katty/SH/simo. Otherwise he's confirmed town for me.

Katty: 5

- Meh. I'm going to wait to see how other people read her before I make a new judgement.

Gen: 4

- His posts are horrible. I'm lazy and don't want to go through his ISO again but I can absolutely see him as scum.

RT: 4

- This guy is barely below null and I don't have much to say about him.

DH: 2

- Really bad posts. They are always extremely weak, centered around semantics and change at the drop of a dime. I think he was trying to distance himself from SH and was surprised when it picked up speed.

[Odysseus]

Another thing to note, we have so many ML's that we could literally lynch everyone of my null and below reads and still not lose if they were all town.

[Odysseus]

RT; When you went back and read, did you notice that I commented on a possible KB/SH team about half way though d1? I've got more to say about this topic and RT's post altogether but I'm gonna hold that for later.

Soben; When you said SH, did you mean DH? And can we have your reads? I feels a bit off that you don't have any scum reads. And I really want you to explain why you think DH is town and why Yonzy is scum. I'll make a case against DH in a bit, I don't want to overrun all discussion like I did d1 and I'm interested to see what happens with KB.

KB;
1. This is entirely wrong. The reason why I jumped on SH being your partner d1 was the fact that he said NOTHING about you. This is the same point RT is making against you today. Avoiding talking about/to you != whiteknighting. What brought you to this conclusion and why do you think that scum would whiteknight you in the first place? If anyone was doing this, it would have been bio and RT yesterday.
2. This is a much better and plausible defense but contractions your first point. Which is it?
3. I agree here because who hammered doesn't matter. The interesting part of this is it seems like you just fos'd DH, RT and el simo in the same little point. Also, did you skip my reads post on this page? From your point of view, el simo should be clear.

What would we have discussed? The 3 days that proceeded SH's hammer nothing really happened except we were waiting for a claim and DH reads.

Really? Why did his post give you a scum read? Was it only because he called you scum in it or do you see something I didn't?

[Odysseus]

If you guys knew DH like I knew DH, you would be lynching him.

Just sayin.

[Odysseus]

They were probably afraid of a doctor or the like. Its better to shoot for someone you don't think will be saved but also won't be lynched.

What you're doing here looks like blatant fearmongering, not gonna lie.

[Odysseus]

Also I remember why I thought Gen was scum now. I want someone else to figure it out though.

It is in his iso #3. Bonus points to who finds it.

[Odysseus]

I'm fine with Katty or Demon being shot. Town needs to decide, then that person needs to claim before you do anything.

[Odysseus]

DAY Vigilante

Doubt that will be blocked.

[Odysseus]

This changes things. I don't care who Gen shoots because I'm now pretty sure last scum is DH/KB. It seems like KB has more lynch support so I think that would be the best target. Don't use it until we hear from both of them though. Also, how does day shot work? Essentially we get two lynches today? Also at this point and with my number of town reads if KB doesn't flip scum, I'm not going to know what to do with myself.

[Odysseus]

It ends the day? What the crap is this point of the role then? I'm pretty disappointed in this setup seeing as probably all the PRs we've got are useless beside clearing themselves. We're lucky we lynched scum on d1 or this game would be outrageously scum sided. Let's just not use the day-kill and just lynch as normal so we get VC reads.

[Odysseus]

Agreeing with my head here.

[Odysseus]

Why the fuck would you even claim that right now

[Odysseus]

Lol DH, please come back with a scum read on me. This is on my phone so more later but I support a massclaim now.

[Odysseus]

@Gen; That was Slaxx and I'm not sure so I'll just let him answer next time he's on.

@Soben; I can see where you are coming from with a Yonzy read although I still disagree. Take a look at SH/Yonzy interactions after the claim. Also I absolutely despise the coaching read and people use it entirely too much and it is completely unreliable. Loads of people told SH to claim, were we all coaching him? Loads of people are asking for Katty to claim now too. This is one of those tells people add to flesh out their read when they realize they don't have much on 'em. Stop it. >_>

@Everyone else; Jeez the word massclaim is like taboo here. I'm not very impressed with this setup and I wouldn't be surprised if the host saw the fact that two PRs can effectively clear themselves as a type of 'protective' measure. It's more of day protection but still. So I think any PR should claim because there's a good chance that there isn't another defensive PR. So yes, I still support a massclaim. Another thing to note: if the scum team has a weak PR, I could see host giving us only the day vig and child which is another reason why I want massclaim so we can discuss the likelihood of BG existence.

Katty should be shot by Gen. And unless somebody has any objections, I'm going to start putting together a DH case. (If it's not obvious, I don't believe the BG claim at all)

FFS SORRY
This is me

[Odysseus]

You realize that if DH is BG and there was still an investigative role, that would be our fourth PR, right? Town has two auto-clears, one with day kill, a BG AND an investigative role?

If DH is legit, we have nothing else we can reveal.

[Odysseus]

Post 33: DH votes Time for this post. There's nothing particularly scummy about the fact that DH voted Time here because this was early game but I want you to realize that this is not enough for a strong scum read. Time was, to put it in DH's own words, 'making a mountain out of a molehill' and that's it.

Post 34: DH calls Uphill town (This supports his later save) and gives KB a null read. It's interesting that this is the polar opposite of how most people read Time/KB. (KB scum, Time null at the time) He ignores the fact that KB agrees and builds on something that DH thought warranted a vote. It's one thing to make a horrible post like 22, it's another thing entirely to not acknowledge that it was horrible and to build on it. How the crap does this read null? Soben talks about Yonzy leaving room for error on his SH read, I'd say this is exactly that with KB.

Post 53: DH follows Time and votes trez for quickly unvoting after pressure. Where this gets scummy is when DH tells time that he can bus trez still implying unwarranted conviction. Granted this could just be him trying to sound more sure than he is so I'll just file this away for later. Another thing to note: He finds Time's aggression to be scummy when there is little difference between Time's and his own.

Posts 58 and 63: Defends Uphill from Time's horrible play. Nothing important to say here except for the fact that I think DH should have read time as VI at this point.

Post 127: This post is BIG. DH votes SH for voting trez and saying filmsy analysis was his meta. Keep in mind that DH was just voting trez and that he said Time was bussing him. This marks the third time DH has changed his vote based on semantics and very small things, all of which weren't scummy. This implies that he doesn't have conviction even though everything he says contradicts that and that he's not actually looking for scum. (And yes, SH did nothing that warranted a vote at this point so DH does NOT get town cred for being the first on SH.) I see this as a distancing and that DH did not intend for this to lead anywhere. In the second part of this post, DH quotes Katty's post but doesn't say anything about it except her join date and so names her town for being a NEW PLAYER. This is something that has nothing to do with alignment and just points to her being a noob. How does this translate to town again? Keep in mind that this is the first time DH even mentioned Katty asside from rewarding her null in RVS. This, imo, is DH trying to end the wagon on KB and if KB ends up being scum PR I will not be surprised. I will say that it caught me by surprise that DH only talked about who I think his partners are in this post and might allude to being wrong. I guess we'll have to see.

Post 128: Calls time scum still and retracts trez' scumread. DH hasn't said a word about time in a very long time and the only thing he said that made him scum was his first post against Uphill. Where is this conviction coming from? Also when he calls trez town, he keeps it very weak and just says he's shaped up after RVS. I think he saw that trez lynch had no support and this was just an easy way to get out from behind it. Statements like 'he shaped up' don't actually mean anything.

Post 134: Here he extends on SH being scum for one line reads and hopping onto the trez wagon. THIS is actually DH's only redeeming post at this point. Granted his reasons are weak but at least he supported his position. Perhaps this upgraded from SH distancing to a bus. Although it could just be him having to look for reasons why he voted SH because he was asked for them. Again calls Katty town but still only provided noob reason. I'm interested to see how DH's read will change on KB now that he's stuck today. Make sure we ask him why she was a noob yesterday and not anymore.

Post 139: Yay, he finally explains his KB town read after Soben asked and esentially says the IIoA wasn't scummy and that KB wasn't 'anywhere near knowledgeable about what she was saying.' I'm not even sure what this means but there you have it. I am now very interested in seeing KB flip. This still follows his theme of very broad answers to his reads all of which don't actually take scumhunting.

Post 141: Builds a case on Time. Case is meh, I think it points more to him being a really awful player than anything else. Soben provides a good counter argument for this whole case here. I don't think anything here warrants his conviction with his Time read but whatever. I also think this points to DH not actually scumhunting because he actually said that he had to ISO time before he could explain why his vote was there. I think he had to go looking for his reason to be there.

Post 143: Caught an interesting little tidbit here. DH says 'I just don't believe meta really matters.' otherwise nothing to report.

Post 317: This is DH's reads list. He gave trez a high town read which I find interesting and supports his NK as he probably saw trez as unlynchable. He gave me a very high town read so we'll see what he comes out with after he looks at me again. Now for the interesting thing I saw in the above post, he says RT's meta is that he posts more and so gives RT a scum read. Didn't he just say meta doesn't really matter? Again makes it look like he's not actually looking for scum and just taking the easy route. I also just noticed that all of his scum reads as they are just the most inactive players. Surprisingly, he retracts Time/SH scum read and just rewards him null. This is interesting because I'd say that FS's play has been scummier than Time's but DH says FS saved the slot. I fail to see just what changed DH's mind and it's very interesting that he's not pushing a lynch on him at all anymore seeing as he said that he's rereading KB and I for last scum. This speaks for the fact that DH didn't actually see anything scummy in Time's play because I find it odd that DH would forget his strongest for all of d1.

Post 374: Votes Yonzy for not pushing his vote on DH more. Here's the interesting part: 'not going to discuss the daykill. shoot me if you want to shoot me, don't if you don't want to.' This is coming from BG? What the crap? This reads as 'Oh shit I'm a target, better act like I'm not afraid of being killed!' This is exactly the opposite mentality I would expect from BG. Why would BG say this and then have his next post be a claim?

Post 377: This reads as 'Oh shit me acting like I wasn't afraid of getting shot didn't work, better claim PR!' He keeps saying like 'I'm not going to guide your action' to Gen and this reads as him appealing to not be the target. Also wtf is up with the Uphill save? Did DH actually think that Uphill was in danger of being killed? Why would scum target someone who was so blatantly wrong? BG dies instead of their target so DH felt like Uphill's play has been strong enough that DH could justify dying in his place? Does anyone else remember Uphill's borderline flamefest screaming that SH was town and that bio was scum? It doesn't matter how town someone is, if I'm BG, I'm not going to save someone unless I feel like they would help town more than I could. He should have been on Soben, bio or me. Imo, his claim is completely bull.

Post 386: DH says his reads didn't change. That's weird, because mine changed a ton. It's almost like DH is playing from some perspective that he already knew SH's alignment! More appealing to Gen to dodge the shot.

TL,DR; If you read DH's d1, you see a common theme of him pushing on people for very weak reasons, explaining his reads in broad terms that could just be summarizing their play and tunneling Time. His recent reads, don't follow his play from d1 and he's contradicted himself in a couple places. His BG claim makes no amount of sense after the post that came before it and his save makes even less sense to me. He's also been completely absorbed in only talking about Time/SH/KB which is interesting because I think SH/KB are his partners.

------

@Setup speculators; I think that'd be entirely too townsided so I guess we'll have to see what happens.

------

After doing this, I got all of the same scum feelings from KB as I did when they happened. I think last scum are DH/KB. How cool would it be if this game ended on d2?

[Odysseus]

:< Every time I put effort into a post people ignore it.

[Odysseus]

Wow. When I went over the game I didn't think about when Yonzy hopped on the wagon. It is pretty odd that he quoted from a SH post that happened before his last post. Although it is perfectly reasonable that he went back to reread SH after seeing Soben's point. Anyway, I now completely understand where Soben/Fish are coming from on a Yonzy scum read and it absolutely looks like he was fence sitting until he realized the wagon had no sign of stopping. I'm interested to see how fish reads DH/Katty.

[Odysseus]

Retro here. I still think we should massclaim.

VOTE: Katty because I still have those minor towntells on Yonzy and I would feel like a total badass if the only 3 people I pushed on this game were scum.

[Odysseus]

Also not that it matters much at this point, but el simo is confirmed town for me. I explained earlier in my reads post today.

[Odysseus]

The more I think about it, the more sure I am that Katty is last scum instead of Yonzy.

In Yonzy's first post he would have had to name one partner full scum and vote him and call the other lazy town/scum. Lazy town/scum is exactly the gist that I had at SH at the time and his reasoning for DH is exactly why I suspected him too. And the fact that Yonzy brought up DH when no one else was focusing on him has to count for something. Why would he do that AND start to push on SH as well? Yonzy produced three scum reads in that post and two of them were on his partners who at the time were not under much heat? Why? DH's main point against Yonzy was that he didn't continue to push hard on DH after the vote but that was because DH went on V/LA. And why is DH naming his only remaining partner his top scum read after we just lynched his other partner? He obviously wasn't trying hard to scumhunt so it was a conscious decision to bus his partner immediately? This even extends to today when DH asked for Yonzy to be shot instead of him. Why? The majority of people at that point we're calling for a Katty shot and a DH lynch. Why would he ask for the shot to be on his partner when he could just as easily push Katty? DH also said that he needed to reread Katty and myself and usually when scum will name two people for last possible scum, there's one town and one scum. You think he continued to bus and then pretended like he was going to read two people he /knew/ were town for last scum? Why not just call it out of his ass then? It's not like he would actually expect to find something. I completely understand the fence-sitting arguement and that's why Yonzy is my second lowest read but the other part complaining about how bad/lazy scum was is a null read at best. And when I look at my initial argument against Katty and how all the assumptions I made about Katty making decisions based on other player's alignment all came true... I can't help feeling like I was right from the start and I don't wanna ruin a potential chance to lynch all three scum by d2. During d1, there were two big wagons: One was SH and the other is Katty. If Katty was town, why did SH ask me to name the towntells his competeting wagon made? What is the scum benefit on asking one town person to elaborate on another town read WHILE he is being lynched? Soben just said that Katty wouldn't have had the balls to bus and so she's town? How come when Soben, Uphill and myself voted Katty did DH, SH (and even Yonzy) not hop on and instead call her null/town? What was the benefit? If three town were lynching town, why would all three scum avoid it like the plague? I still think that Yonzy/SH interactions at the end of d1 also point against that team. And none of the constant bussing makes any since to me.

For my happiness, could we lynch Katty today and if it's wrong, we can all blame it on me?

[Odysseus]

I'm aware. This is me trying to explain why my gut has such a big problem with lynching Yonzy over Katty. I was just listing everything that made me feel irksome. (<- Dude, how cool is that? That is actually a word.)

[Odysseus]

unvote

no lolhammers.

But yeah, claim katty.

[Odysseus]

You're so cute when you try to determine protective roles.

We know who it is.

[Odysseus]

Slaxx, who cares if someone 'lolhammers'?

VOTE: Katty >:D

[Odysseus]

because there's fucking sense in waiting

theres 0% drawback to waiting

however there is (a very smal)l but still plausible chance she can claim something confirmable.

So fucking

unvote

[Odysseus]

y u tryin 2 sav her huh u scum or somethin

[Odysseus]

stfu

[Odysseus]

inb4modkill

[Odysseus]

No, he's not or he would have flipped shit when we fake claimed it.

VOTE: Katty

[Odysseus]

Someone go ahead and hammer.

Also, you'll be fine just check Yonzy.

[Odysseus]

Sorry Katty. Actually sorry everyone. :/

We'll be on Soben.

[Odysseus]

good timing.

I'll explain more tomorrow when we mass claim but this might be the last time we have your back soben.

[Odysseus]

After I reread I'd be mildly surprised if Yonzy came back scum, but we will see. I'll withold further comments until after the report.

-slaxx

[Odysseus]

I told you simo couldn't be scum the second DH flipped... As far as I am concerned that is a waste of an investigation. Let's just quick lynch Yonzy and move on if it's wrong.

[Odysseus]

Sigh bad fucking check, simo was fairly obv town.

unvote vote uphill

Check Yonzy tonight. Etc.

[Odysseus]

By the way, if there is any doubt in any ones mind, Soben is 100% clear unless mafia no killed and I highly doubt that happened.

unvote vote yonzy

I doubt this will end the game but its autowin.

HEY YOU TROLL IDIOTS, CHECK UPHILL TONIGHT.

If its not him lynch fishy. Easy game.

[Odysseus]

Actuall Soben you need to check your sanity. Check to Soben to see if they have a gun.

[Odysseus]

Wicked specifically stated this was a bastard mini normal

[Odysseus]

oh my fucking god can we please switch to uphill today

if im wrong i want this guy around another day anyway ive grown fond of him

[Odysseus]

OMG LOL

I CANT TELL IF HES REALLY GOT ME BY THE BALLS AND IS PLAYING NAIVE OR IF SRS

OH GOD WHAT A THRILL

ITS WHY I LOVE THIS GAME

[Odysseus]

lawl

retro we should hydra more often

TOO BAD IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO GET IN THIS GAME

If uphill isnt scum after a yonzy town flip i will be eating my metaphorical hat along with redtail

uphill u mad we stopped ur kill bro

u mad

cuz we did

lolzlzozozlks'oij

[Odysseus]

I am seriously lol'ing. I was worried we softclaimed too hard d2 but obviously not.