Open 42 - Friends and Enemies - (Game Over) before 495

[Per]

Original Roll String: 1d10

1 10-Sided Dice: (4) = 4

[Per]

Vote: Jex

[Per]

Due to work combined with other evening activities, my access is practically limited to 0 for at least the past and the next 24 hours..

[Per]

OK, sorry for my long inactivity. My inactivity period is not over yet but I have a day off today so I’m squeezing in a reaction in as many games as possible.

I have re-read the entire topic, and I think this game can easily be divided into two phases in order to give a more or less structural reply.

The first phase is the random/joke voting phase. It’s one of the weirdest random voting stages I have ever seen (not that I’m very experienced, but anyway). I say big WTF? to lemming and Shanba. Lemming, because he seemed to be trying very hard to distract everyone from this game.

Shanba, because, of his unvote/vote EmpTyger without giving any reason, not even when specifically asked for a reason later on.

I also note a bandwagon on YB for no reason at all, probably to start discussion except it didn’t really start any discussion. I also don’t like Crub’s first post, just jumping on the wagon without making any other comments.

After this phase, I draw a line at Post 53 to start the next one, a more serious stage of the game.

In 54, Samruc makes a good point about Shanba but he is asking YB to explain his Page 1 FoS on Simenon – here I go WTF? again. YB’s FoS was for putting someone at Lynch -5. Clearly joking if you ask me.

Samruc points out a good contradiction in Shanba’s posting in Post 56.

59 Reads:

my votes were never random. Just the stuff that accompanied them. I made clear at the time when I explained my votes that they weren't random, but I didn't make particularly clear what I did mean was random, and for that I apologise.

I’m not with you here. If your votes were not random, why did you accompany them with random stuff? The only answer I can think of is: to make the votes look random while they aren’t, which is a scum-tell in my book.

Crub makes his second post, and he’s trying to draw us back into the random voting stage instead of trying to add something useful as a replacement.

Sir T is actually advocating a YB lynch on Page 3 – wow. Because of previous games he has played with him. I would rather wait and see what YB has to say in this game first, or have him replaced.

Now, examine the join dates of the players of this game. Mine is by far the earliest. So, barring replacement shenanigans, I expect to be a high profile target. I think there is a good chance I will not be alive D2. So if I want any chance of affecting the game, I’m going to have to do it *now*.

I don’t know why, but I really don’t like this.

Simenon: Why are always voting for the same person I am voting?

Any reason why I shouldn't trust your vote record?

Any reason why you should so easily trust his vote record?

And there goes Samruc, adding one more vote to the YB bandwagon.

Lemming puts YB at -1 now and I really can’t believe it. You can pressure a lurker with a couple of votes to get him to post, but if the lurker persists, you don’t lynch him: you ask for him to be prodded and then replaced. Which Lemming obviously knows because he has asked for a prod on me in the same post.

Shanba removes his YB vote but Sir T adds his vote to re-instate the L-1 situation. In his position, I would have said “hold your horses Lemming” instead of “I want to be on the wagon no matter how weak the reasoning it”.

Anyway, it seems now that both Lemming and Sir T have made a counting mistake. Guardian says YB has 4 votes, which equals L-2.

The last thing I note is a weird and useless statement by Crub.

Unvote, vote: Lemming.

FoS: Sir T.

[Per]

OMG. I completely forgot that I was in this game. I can't guarantee activity within 24 hours, but I'll do my best.

Sorry all, especially to Guardian.

[Per]

OK - my last post was 105 on Page 5. I'm reading from here.

Crub responds to my post. I'm not going to reply to it yet because the game has probably moved out of this stage, unless someone wants me to comment on something in particular.

Sir T would want to lynch YB because of policy. I have seen this discussion before in an ongoing game. My opinion is that policy lynches probably are a bad thing for the town.

Jex does a PBPA on Crub. He thinks Crub is slipping under the radar too much. Crub's reaction is that Jex has been inactive too. This is deflecting, not defending (as later pointed out by Samruc).

Simenon says the person he is voting for is not necessarily scummy. Later, he comes with a vote on Crub, and again he states no reasons.

Sammich replaces in and thinks EmpTyger is scum, votes him. He says "I'm sorry Emp" which sounds a bit weird.

Post 152 is Crub trying to respond to Jex's statement mentioned above. I'm not going to quote it here because all the quotes would make my post too long, but I recommend you to check it out by clicking the link - this post makes me want to vomit. Post 162 is another post without any defense and full of WIFOM. I think this is comparable to the appeal to emotion.

SirT asks whether anyone has played with Simenon before. I have, in the notorious Mini 431. I was a vig, he was scum. I thought his playstyle was weird, it was VERY hard to get a read on him. He managed to build good cases, though. I had a bad feeling about him, but couldn't give any proof for it. "Eccentric" would a good description, I think.

Lemming points out Simenon's weird playstyle. Simenon replies with "Lemming can be next."

Sir T points out Post 162 and is against Crub. I have completely lost track of the vote count in this stage of the game, and apparently so has Sir T, as he votes and then unvotes Crub.

Simenon conitnues the weird play. He says "I might just have a reason for my methodical bandwagoning". If you do, then why don't you just say it right away? Simenon keeps going the sarcastic way and, in my opinion, is making a fool of himself. In the Lemming-Simenon discussion, I have to

unvote: Lemming

. His reasoning seems solid and genuine.

Post 194 is a first decent post by Crub.

Simenon insists on not giving his reasons for his bandwagoning. He's looking bad, if you ask me, but Post 204 seems to be some kind of a turning point where he says he is experimenting and tries to attract opportunistic scum. Actually, what he is doing, is make himself look like opportunistic scum, and then you get to the "too scummy to be scum" argument as pointed out by Sir T one page earlier. If you go on with this point, a lot of WIFOM is going to get involved.

Shanba says Simenon doesn't deserve the 2-vote "wagon" on him.

Samruc makes a case against Sammich. It's a pity we can't abbreviate a nick to "Sam" in this game, btw.

Shanba,

why are you completely not considering Crub and Simenon in Post 217? At this stage, they seem to be the most likely lynch-candidates, but you seem to think it's more between Samruc and Sammich.

Sammich says he doesn't think Samruc is scum, which is a contradiction when compared to his FoS in his previous post. He points out a contradiction in Shanba's posts and votes him.

Simenon keeps up the weird play.

I don't think the case against Sammich is really big. There seems to be a lot of following involved. Sammich's case against Shanba wasn't too bad (it's not good either, but I don't consider it to be OMGUS like many do). I don't see Sammich as the most scummy player so far, at all.

Sammich: I see Lemming's question as very normal question, to be honest. Not every post with your name in it is trying to get you lynched.


My conclusions from this are: Simenon seems scummy, but I think this is more or less what he always does. I want to give him at least one more day before I want to see him lynched. That makes Crub my preferred lynch for today. He is at L-1 right now. I am refusing to hammer him though, because of this reason: I haven't been in this game for more than 2 weeks. You haven't been able to get a read on me, it's like I'm a replacement coming in. Whenever a replacement comes in and hammers someone, it's scummy no matter if the hammered player is town or scum.

I totally agree with the Crub lynch though, if it were to take place, so I'm not trying to escape the responsibility. The main thing I hold against Crub is his reactions to the small case that was made against him. Post 194 was decent, but why did he have to make 152 and 162 first, instead of being clear-minded from the beginning?

[Per]

Actually, Crub is not at L-1.

Vote: Crub

Now he is.

[Per]

Is that actually a change of playstyle?

[Per]

what.

Well, during D1 you were jumping on bandwagons with no reason (as in "reason to suspect/lynch someone"), and now it seems as though you want to start bandwagons zith no such reason. I'm asking whether that is indeed the case, and if this is another well-considered strategy of yours.

[Per]

Sammich's multiple fossing raised my eyebrows too. Sammich, it's true that throwing FoS'es around like this is something scum like to do because they can hop on almost any bandwagon saying they were suspicious all the time.

However, multiple fossing isn't a lynchable tell at all, imo.

[Per]

I haven't really done much during D2 yet. More will come on Saturday.

[Per]

This post might be somewhat weird, it was partly written while reading and partly after reading. If I need to clarify something feel free to ask.

First of all:

I haven't really done much during D2 yet. More will come on Saturday.

Mod: Seriously, has Per picked up his prod?

I did. Next I found myself reading until 2.30am and still not getting through Phate's long posts, so I gave up and here we are, 24 hours later. I seem to be able to find time for Mafia only after midnight. I'm truly sorry for that.

Per: What was the point of putting Crub at L1?

I thought I made that perfectly clear when I voted him. He deflected instead of defending, he was full of WIFOM and OMGUS, he was indirectly appealing to emotion. Maybe the initial case against him was weak, but I would expect a pro-town player to react by simply pointing this out in the first place, not by panicking completely and one giving a good post after about everyone has asked him to.


I find Sammich's play to be very interesting. He begins D2 with a fairly pro-town post (page-by-page summary) but he ends it in a scummy way by adding the notorious quadruple FoS. From that point, the only thing he did was defending and backpedaling up to "it's OK Simenon, it was only Day 1". His play now seems to be similar to Crub's, but you can't make any conclusions about his alignment from that (100% WIFOM). Oh wait, Sammich pointed this out himself in 346.

ChaosOmega,

why did you vote AlSleet instead of asking for a prod?


I like Phate. He steps forward and makes a lot of analyses, and most of them are very good (though I wouldn't say Simenon failed to defend himself. In fact I think his responses to Phate are better posts than he had made so far). Phate makes an interesting case against CO, but I have one comment:

Oh, and how is my behavior "paling in comparison" to that of Sir Tornado? He wanted someone lynched for reasons that have nothing to do with the current game.

This doesn't just miss my point, it sidesteps it and clotheslines it on the rebound. He accuses Sir Tornado of bandwagoning without sufficient reasoning. Next post, he votes Crub, who's being wagoned (reasoning: one post that commented on the Masons). Next post, he votes Samruc to try to get him onto the Crub wagon (reasoning: If you're suspicious, why don't you vote?). Next post, he jumps back to Crub (his entire post was: "I agree. Vote: Crub." This was in response to Simenon's post, quoted in its entirety here: "That's :badvoting:. We should be voting Crub.") Sir T, on the other hand, jumped onto one bandwagon and pretty much stayed there, citing a valid metagame decision - in his experience, the town tends to lose games when YogurtBandit plays. I'd call that "paling in comparison."

You call it "a valid metagame decision" to back up your case. I really don't agree with that statement. Sir T (and if I recall correctly, there was someone else who did the same thing) said something like "YB is a bad player, thus he should be lynched". In an 11 player game, I don't accept that as a strategy at all. However, this doesn't counter the points you raised concerning CO's voting record.


(Shanba, could you please tell this non-native English speaker what the abbreviation "OTOH" stands for? :-[)

Sammich,

what are you trying to achieve with your voting analysis? I agree that it might help finding connections between scum. But it may expose connections between masons as well. Especially when you are trying to find so many connections. It would be OK if you were interested in one particular connection and back it up with voting records, but to me, this seems to be a little bit too much info spread out for the scum.

Phate,

please clarify the difference between Post 341:

Notice to everyone: Since there appears to be a bandwagon on Sammich, and since I think he's scum, and since he's failing to defend himself, I will hereby vote for him in +- 20 hours unless he provides me with a satisfactory response. That will put him at L-1, unless someone votes for him, in which case it will put us at Day 3.

...and Post 355:

WTFF, Lemming? It's nowhere near time to put someone at L-1. We want discussion and no quick lynch, don't we?

I personally also support Sammich's lynch, as I think he's scum, but this is way too fast.

For the record, I agree that it is too early for L-1. But you said you would make an L-1 or even a hammer vote (!!), but then, when someone else does, you condamn him for it. You are making a very sharp, very fast U-turn here.

Everyone please pressure Phate.

Very weird, seeing he quickly backpedals from this to me.

Ooh, nice catch. I completely missed that one.

However, you are doing "a Crub" again in the end of your post. "If I die, you better put up with them damn consequences on D3, okay?" I never, ever like this kind of statements. Also, can you come up with better defense than "Wtf.", "What?" and the likes?



Suspects... hmm. I think the best case at the moment is the one against CO. I don't know what to make of Lemming's L-1 vote yet (no we can't afford to lynch anyone this quickly, but no I don't know if the vote in itself was really that scummy). Sammich seems similar to Crub, meaning he is suspicious, but Crub being town just makes me doubt this.

Well, I hope that I'm in the game again and can follow it up daily so that I can get more vibes.

[Per]

For the record, I agree that it is too early for L-1. But you said you would make an L-1 or even a hammer vote (!!), but then, when someone else does, you condamn him for it. You are making a very sharp, very fast U-turn here.

I changed my mind.

Since there appears to be a bandwagon on Sammich, and since I think he's scum, and since he's failing to defend himself, I will hereby vote for him in +- 20 hours unless

he provides me with a satisfactory response

.

Now, while the response is far from satisfactory, he is at least presumably trying. And while I doubt that he's going to give us much more than what he is now - greatly flawed analysis - it's at least worth a shot. More valuable than his response at this point (assuming he's going to keep giving us this diarrhea in place of logical defense) is the responses of others: for example, Lemming's setup (or my threatened setup/hammer, if you want to count that; there's no reason you shouldn't, but I don't) is suspicious to me. I was willing to overlook his D1 hammer, but he's just moved up to number 4.5 or so on my scumlist.

Hmm. I checked the timing, and the post where I would have expected you to vote was just after Sammich's promise that he would make an analysis, and it was the post where you point out the misquoting by CO, explicitly saying that Sammich has moved to your #2. I concede this point.

[Per]

If you don't care about being lynched, by all means start being useful now so we might at least have something serious to investigate if you would turn up town.

If it wasn't for the case against CO and the short length of the day so far, I would be voting you. At the moment, I wouldn't like a lynch yet.

[Per]

Picking up my prod, but I have exams this week. One difficult one coming up so on Friday or Saturday I should really really be able to catch up once again..

[Per]

I think it's best for the game that I be replaced...

[Per]

Did the mafia kill me because they thought I was a mason?

Lemming thought you were, I thought you weren't, but I agreed that you were a good kill anyway.

We more or less agreed that Simenon was a mason during N1 already, and there were only 3 more mason-candidates that night: you, Jex and Shanba...

I apologize for my inactivity. I always meant to actually play this game, but my time kept turning out to be too limited. I prefer playing an active role as scum way above lurking as scum, simply because it's more fun, but I just couldn't.