Open 59 - Daytalk 12! (Game Over) before 545

[Mizzy]

Herro! I'm all caught up on the thread. Prod me as needed/wanted:

AIM: Tiasale
Yahoo: dj_mizzy_maltz
Gtalk: mizziness@gmail.com
MSN: mizziness@hotmail.com

Be gentle with me. I bruise easily.

[Mizzy]

Um...guys? <_<

[Mizzy]

I'm still around. Mizzy, do you have any thoughts after your read?

Well, to be honest, no. Very little is contained in the thread, and most of it in the beginning is dominated by arguing over JDodge.

I sent out some messenger invites but I haven't heard from anyone.

[Mizzy]

Looks like my vote's still on xyzzy from Slayer...I'll keep it there for the time being.

[Mizzy]

@Mizzy: Can't you come up with

something

better than that?

Not until I see some participation. No one has responded to my buddy list additions (I hate PM on this site) and there's next to nothing in here worth giving a darn about.

[Mizzy]

*shrug*

I still like my vote on Disciple Slayer, and by extension, I dislike the xyzzy bandwagon.

It would appear my vote on DS is now on Mizzy, and yet my opinion hasn't changed.

You could try, you know, bothering to talk to me. No one has even attempted to contact me, ask me anything, etc.

[Mizzy]

[bMOD:[/b] Perhaps it might be beneficial to do a mass-prod or a reverse-prod and also make a listing of everyone's contact information in the first post so that no one has any excuses for not participating?

...

Cannot...resist...

*Pets the moogle.*

Mizzy has been Mod-kille- oh okay, one more chance. I'm prodding everyone who hasn't posted in the last 48 hrs

[Mizzy]

Repost for bold:

MOD:

Perhaps it might be beneficial to do a mass-prod or a reverse-prod and also make a listing of everyone's contact information in the first post so that no one has any excuses for not participating?

[Mizzy]

or we could just lynch xyzzy and call it a day...

Even if we did that, participation would still be shot and we have no idea who is inactive and who isn't.

I'm not sure if lynching someone who isn't responding to anything is worth it until we prod him and see what happens. Would rather have a replace.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, did you send a request to me for Yahoo? I didn't see anything last time I checked. I'm gonna list my AIM address also since that seems to be what most people use here.

I did send one but it's been wonky lately. I prefer AIM these days...less spam.

[Mizzy]

Unvote

because I'm doing some, you know, talking? And I may have some questions soon. I don't want a lynch just yet.

[Mizzy]

Adel, your attitude of "let's just lynch randomly to see what it gets us" is super-scummy. Why, specifically, is that a good idea? Because I can't see ANY reason to random lynch. My death wouldn't even provide the town any useful info.

Unvote, vote Adel

I think it'll get us useful info about the people pushing your wagon and the people trying to defuse it. Why do you think otherwise?

I think people, well most of us, were wagoning just to get information...I wouldn't have been terribly impressed with an

actual

random lynch.

Adel's play makes me wonder...she's a bit terse.

[Mizzy]

Since the High and Mighty Moogle would probably kick my ass seven ways til Sunday if I tried to claim Temporary Insanity as a way to get out of this game, I have some questions.

vollkan:

Why did you vote Adel for a scum claim where she also names you as scum and you don't go, "NU UH!" at all?

Adel:

Do birds talk to you often? What do they say about being wrong?

@All:

Anyone have any Advil I can have? This game gives me a headache the size of Kentucky.

[Mizzy]

Erm, I suck. Not Volkan. Oh, I give up.

[Mizzy]

Adel, just what exactly are you trying to accomplish by acting the way you are? If you're town, I can't think of any reasons for why your actions might actually be beneficial towards helping us out in any way. There's no village idiot in this game but yet you seem to be trying to set yourself up as this unproductive, village idiot character. I

can

, however, think of possible benefits for acting this way if you're scum.

In other news, I'm finding myself having a hard time believing that all six of the people who were originally on the xyzzy wagon are pro-town. xyzzy peeps, what are your feelings about one another?

I replaced DS who was originally on the wagon, so I can't really explain why for him. I stayed on as long as I did because I was hoping for some content...but that pretty much failed.

[Mizzy]

Personally, I don't think you "ran in and defused the trap" like you said. I think you stumbled right into it and are now trying to cover that up.

Imma get shot for this, you watch, but no, he DID pre-plan it. We (vollkan and I) spoke about "traps" via daytalk way before he "ran in" and I knew he was going to do what he did. He didn't stumble in by accident.

That is all, carry on.

[Mizzy]

She speaketh the truth. However, that discussion was in the context of Adel saying:

or we could just lynch xyzzy and call it a day...

Yes, but I wanted him to know that (at least in this instance where I know better) you didn't screw up and try to cover your butt later.

[Mizzy]

*Pokes her head in to see if the walls-o-text are over now.*

[Mizzy]

The walls-o-text were extremely informative, both to the current game and to mafia theory in general.

Agreed, but I didn't want to interrupt them, either.

JDodge's line of questioning is simple, direct, and hard to dodge without it being obvious. Vollkan has continued to dodge JDodge's questions and to reduce them to questions of pure theory rather than discuss them as they relate to the game at hand. I predicted as I read the last page the "Well, I concede the argument, let's be friends" ending that vollkan made on the beginning of this page. From what little I know of vollkan and from what I can percieve of his play this game, such a compromise and manner of reacting to questions = scummy enough for a vote.

JD is extremely good at holding up his end of an intelligent debate/conversation and does ask very good questions...but he can do that as town and as scum. I do agree that Volkan isn't answering as directly as I'd like him to, and doesn't answer always in the context of this game as much as I'd prefer, but I'm not entirely convinced as to whether or not his actions/replies are scummy or not; a conversation like that usually leads to one of two things. 1) "I hate your guts and I will want to see you dead for the rest of the game" or 2) "Let's make up and be friends" and I'd really like to see some input from other people before going further with that train of thought.

[Mizzy]

So, how's the weather? Crappy here, lemme tell ya.

Anyway, I'm not sure I agree with the case on Volkan at the moment...I think his defense of himself was sufficient and I feel there's better choices for lynches out there than him.

I feel comfortable

Voting: Adel

. I have to admit, I don't understand her play and I don't like it. It's not helpful, by any means. I realize that unhelpful != scum, but she did help kill a townie D1, and I have my eye on her and JDodge who have seemed to pair up together quite nicely. It's odd, I haven't seen a rendition of Bad Cop-Bad Cop before.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I don't think your vote is justified. Adel's play is different than others she's played in, but that doesn't make her scum - have you ever seen her play like this in a game where she was scum? If so, please cite it.

I'm voting Adel because her blatant desire for a lynch doesn't feel pro-town. Regardless of meta, it's generally understood that longer days (with more talk and therefor more information) are better for town, and she seems quite happy ending a day here. Not to mention that with the deadline so close, all she'd have to do is wait it out and she'd probably get what she wanted.

What do you mean by "her and JDodge who have seemed to pair up together quite nicely"?

They've both been on both wagons and their playstyles in this game are very, very similar.

Today: Vollkan (2): Jdodge, Adel
Yesterday: Xyzzy (3): Jdodge, Sir Tornado, Adel

I don't likes it.

[Mizzy]

Why is playstyle similarity a problem?

Why is Adel/JDodge being on the same wagons a problem?

Playstyle is a problem because they are both coming off as anti-town, whether it's on purpose or not, in the same fashion. JD I'm used to seeing that from, but not necessarily from Adel. It seems noteworthy enough for a vote.

Because the first wagon was wrong. I had expressed distaste for that wagon multiple times, not just here but in chat with others. The lynch and the NK gave us pretty close to zero information. I don't like that they were the driving force behind the mislynch and I don't like that Adel is pushing for another lynch now.

Don't ask me questions just for the sake of looking active.

[Mizzy]

So you meant they are both seeming anti-town?

Ordinarily, when someone says "playstyle" I think of meta things like "Well, so-and-so is always very emotionally reactive/bandwagon hops/has an aggressive tone/ etc." Hence, my question.

I mean their playstyle in this game thus far coupled with what meta I know of them. But MOSTLY their playstyle this game.

That wasn't the point. The first question was because your use of the word "playstyle" confused me, and the second was to get you to elaborate on exactly what your problem with the wagoning was.

I'm sorry, I should have elaborated...that wasn't just aimed at you. It feels like because Mister Moogle's wrath is imminent, that I will be/am being targeted because I posted right before it in an attempt to up participation. Not just by you.

[Mizzy]

I agree with JDodge on this one.

Vote: vollkan.

You are in fact dodging questions with your long posts that can seem contentful but shirk around the important stuff sometimes, by preventing reactions. Reactions to the words written on this thread are, in my opinion, the most telling of all the information we have. Okay, so it's not quite THAT important, but it's pretty high up on the list. And your stepping in did in fact hamper those reactions, and therefore the information given to the town. And plus, you are acting way too close to our first game. It's almost word for word.

FoS: kabenon007 for being a lemming.

Voting someone without adding anything concrete or reasonable (prior meta is great and all but it's kind of BS) is scummy to me.

Think for yourself

.

[Mizzy]

EBWOP:

FoS: kabenon007

[Mizzy]

@Mizzy- What should I have done differently? I did think for myself. That is why I said I agree with JDodge. I didn't just say exactly the same things as JDodge did, I said "Yes, this makes sense." And now I am digging deeper.

It was a vote out of left field, really, without much comment on things before hand. You also yes-manned JDodge, and while you changed some words around, you basically said the same things that others have been rehashing over and over with no new information or input beyond meta.

If you had spoken up about things first, done some chatting over it, and then decided to vote, I wouldn't have found the vote scummy.

[Mizzy]

@Vollkan- The last time we played, I said something, you attacked me long and hard about it, and then, after a little banter, you backed off. Someone pressed you for backing off suddenly and acting as if it hadn't happened and then you said basically exactly the same thing as this post:

But Volkan isn't acting here like it never happened. He's taking responsibility for his actions and admitting his faults; something I can't see scum doing easily. He's sticking to his guns, too, and his answers haven't changed. Any argument against what he did is going to stink of wine.

[Mizzy]

In an instant,

what was

a pretty strong accusation (ie. my play here allegedly being similar to my play in Newbie 358) is shown to be an absolute nullity

Followed closely by...

I didn't take it as a strong accusation

Hm... which one is the truth?

Both of them are. You missed the "what was." As in, you cheapened it.

[Mizzy]

No, you see, the fact that he called it a strong accusation and said "WAS" as you pointed out, meant that he took it, at one point, to be a strong accusation. As in the past. But then it was downgraded. But at one point he did in fact take it as a strong accusation. Why are you defending vollkan for him?

I'm not defending him, I think you're over-analyzing and I'm attacking you for it. You're acting like you've been backed into a corner and I don't like it.

MAJORFoS: kabenon007

[Mizzy]

@Mizzy- Yes you sort of attacked me, but it was in the process of defending vollkan's posts. You take a stance on vollkan's posts that is not accusatory, and therefore is defensive of them.

Since when is there no neutral ground? Just because I didn't accuse him, it doesn't mean I defended him.

I pointed something out because I wanted to see your reaction to it specifically and rather than wait around and see if anyone else would say something, I did.

[Mizzy]

Yes... and that isn't putting her opinion out there...

The fact that you missed two words in a sentence when analyzing it isn't opinion, it's fact...hence starting this with "the fact that."

[Mizzy]

At the risk of sticking my neck out again, I think the reason Volkan would have taken the "your play matches your play while scum" thing as a strong accusation was because it could have been an underhanded and passive-aggressive way to call him scum. I would have taken it that way if someone had said it to me. He then didn't take it as a strong accusation, and I wouldn't have either, when you cheapened the whole thing.

[Mizzy]

What do you mean I cheapened it?

Have you not been paying attention at all? I'm not going to answer this because it's already been said. Go read.

[Mizzy]

"I might reasonably do that as town".

Change "I" to "Somebody", and you have my perspective. That's why I think you're too harsh.

But too harsh =/= scum, even when there's a meta on it.

Where's everybody else?

I'm here, just listening, and checking out the meta information you found. I don't personally like meta because it's often times unreliable, but it does make an interesting read sometimes.

I feel volkan's answers have been sufficient and don't find his actions scummy at this time.

[Mizzy]

I do want to point out that the Volkan <--> Nab exchange has allowed kab to slink to the shadows once more and I'd like to hear more from him.

Unvote

because after reading the entire exchange between JDodge and Volkan again, I find myself wondering if Adel would be so blatantly scummy if she were actually scum. Considering that I've just smacked myself in the kisser with a WIFOM argument (I hate me) I can't keep a vote on her and sleep at night for the moment.

Not that I can sleep anyway, but you know.

[Mizzy]

Then you start pushing against Mizzy for defending me.

...

4) Why should Mizzy not have defended me?

I didn't really defend you, I just pointed out what I thought was something he was either missing completely, or trying intentionally to make others miss. I didn't like it that he tried to make someone seem contradictory who had not been.

[Mizzy]

Hi to you, replacer-person! Thanks for joining

[Mizzy]

Just a heads up:

I will be away with limited or no internet access until late Monday, Feb. 18th.

[Mizzy]

It bothers me a lot that Guardian is all pro-daytalk-and-tell and yet only tells us who he spoke to...not any of the info he gained from the conversation...only the outcome. He just expects us to understand his opinion after a chat with kab. It comes off as slightly hypocritical.

I feel at this point that a volkan lynch is an easy way out, and a terrible one. In fact, it feels like that people want volkan dead because he's an easy target...and I can't imagine that anyone who bothered to read the entire conversation between him and JD could feel that he was trying to talk circles in order to appear less scummy.

Volkan has answered everything quite beautifully, and the continued wagon/attention on him is nothing but a smoke screen, if you ask me.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, explain how I am being hypocritical. I think who is talking to who should be of record so if someone dies, the people they talked to could be asked to reveal what the conversation was about. Also, I wouldn't want someone I never PM'd to claim to have had extensive PMs with me if I died.

That doesn't mean we should reveal the contents of the talk as they happen.

Saying who you are talking to and when is fine, but I really dislike that you aren't giving any reasonings here in your posts about why you feel the way you do beyond, "I spoke to him and formed an opinion." If you're going to advocate that the bulk of our exchange is inside the thread, then I hope to see you setting an example.

I'm not saying you post a log of what was said, but I expect to see some logic and reasoning behind your votes and expressed opinions within this thread. I expect the same of everyone.

[Mizzy]

Well, scum don't have to read thread because they know who the scum are, and therefore do not have to search the thread for information as to who they need to investigate. They can just pick and choose and make up crap to instigate things against townies, or better yet just allow townies to kill each other off. So scum can save themselves time by not reading useless information. And I see no reason that any other role would not read the thread.

If your opinions on scum were true, scum would win a lot less than they do. They blend in as town by knowing how the town acts in a specific game. That means reading. It's when a scum fails that blending in that we find them.

Regarding your perceptions of scum - JDodge and volkan don't fit this at all...JD hasn't made up crap from what I can tell, and neither has volkan. And if what Guardian's hint about what he thinks of me is indicative of anything, I'm, being grouped with them, and I certainly don't fit this, either.

And you do realize that your play has come off as "instigating things against townies" that are "made up crap" right?

@Guardian

: Before you judge my alignment, I suggest you look at the voting history and maybe try asking me questions/talking to me, first. Just accepting Kab's views on me and anyone you haven't spoken to is the lazy way out.

[Mizzy]

The truth of the matter is that, statistically speaking, scum are more likely to not read the thread than town. And JDodge doesn't strike me as a townie who would not read the thread or would make such a simple mistake as misjudge who the post was aimed at if the post in question was only one or two posts under the question you posed.

Can we see some statistics that you didn't pull out of your ass to back up the claim that scum read less often than townies? Can you provide proof that said person making mistakes is because their of their alignment and lack of reading the thread and not due to any other factor such as level of business or because of an honest mistake?

If you can make a valid case of this, I will listen to you. However, as it stands right now, you're falling into your own opinion of scum in the sense that this is a crap case aimed at who I feel are townies with the intention of causing a distraction.

In fact, this bullshit case is such a distraction that I can't imagine a kabtown would be doing such a thing. He'd be trying to validly scumhunt, not pull random "facts" out of thin air that are actually groundless opinions that are most likely based on his own tendencies of playing scum himself...in which case, there is proof in this thread (his making errors due to mis-reading, whether intentionally or unintentionally) that fit him square into his own case for scum.

I do not feel that a townie would be playing the way kab is, and I have had suspicions about him for a long time now.

Vote: kabenon007

If he can provide a VALID case against JD and volkan, then I will not only consider taking my vote off of him, but I will most likely listen to him a bit. I, however, don't think he's capable of doing such a thing.

[Mizzy]

Woah. I'm not exactly ready for kabenon to be at L-1. I'd rather kabenon follow up with this:

You misunderstood. I can't post now about it, I have class, but when I return, there shall be some clarification. You misunderstood something that has become a point of contention that I believe can alleviate some stress here.

before having him that close to lynch.

Damn... You guys posted a lot while I slept. I have to catch up on what happened last night.

I doubt he'd get hammered because the folks that haven't voted him seem to think he's sincere...otherwise I would not have put him at -1L. I wanted some pressure on him to respond well to what I've said and what others have said...I'm sick of his wishy-washy responses.

[Mizzy]

While I agree with you for the most part, I don't think L-1 is the right way to go about it at this time. kabenon promised that he would follow up with content and while the likelihood of someone hammering him while he's at that position is unlikely (especially if he's scum), I'd rather not take that chance. I'm still extremely interested in seeing what Xtoxm has to say about the game so far, and I still dislike Adel's posts in this game. I feel like she's almost getting a free ride while other people scrutinize each other or defend her actions.

Well, he's not at -1L now, so that fixes that. On your point about Adel, people have tried to question her directly in the past and we've not gotten good responses. You can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. It sucks, but if a player is unwilling to play along, we can't force them, even if it does give them a free ride.

[Mizzy]

fos: Mizzy

Mizzy, explain your unvote? Why'd you do it?

I SAID why I unvoted. I spoke with 2 people via daytalk and between those conversations and another full re-read, I felt that the xyzzywagon was bullshit. There was no evidence of scum, and no, I didn't want to be on a townie lynch because (funny that) lynching townies is anti-town.

Arguing about why I didn't want to be on the wagon lynch (both scum and town have equally valid reasons for not wanting to be on a townie lynch) is terribly WIFOM.

[Mizzy]

can you quote for me where you said all that explicitly?

Here's the posts that say or hint to the reasons I unvoted:

Unvote because I'm doing some, you know, talking? And I may have some questions soon. I don't want a lynch just yet.

I think people, well most of us, were wagoning just to get information...I wouldn't have been terribly impressed with an actual random lynch.

I was doing some talking with at two people about the xyzzywagon and a third about Adel and JDodge...one of which I outed later as being Volkan. I also spoke with both Phate and Primate.

I had questions to ask of a couple folks, the ones I contacted, and actually spoke at length with Primate about the upcoming xyzzy lynch...it was pretty obvious by that point that it was happening.

I didn't want a lynch because I was pretty undecided at that point who a good lynch would be. I, as I admitted previously (same page as the unvote, in fact), was not getting much info from the thread and had trouble getting anyone to daytalk with me. I had very, very precious little to go on.

If you thought xyzzy lynch was BS, and you didn't want to lynch a townie (him), then why didn't you vote for someone else before deadline?

I had no idea at that point who was scum, and a quick meta on me will tell you that I am a very cautious player...I vote when I am okay with that person being dead. I don't vote until that point. The wagon was already going to cause a lynch...my voting someone else wasn't going to help that.

To those interested:

I have logs of the conversations I have had with Phate, Volkan, and Primate, complete with date and time stamps. I can share them, in private, with anyone who IMs me and asks, but I cannot quote them here.

Mod,

if this isn't okay for me to do (share quotes in private) please let me know and I won't do it.

[Mizzy]

That being said, I don't buy your response to the second part. If you voted Adel, Adel & xyzzy would have been equal. Instead, you did nothing, and let xyzzy be lynched.

Can you stop being a dumbass and

READ THE RULES

?

[05] If I impose a day deadline (which I will be very likely to do if a day lasts over an unreasonable point of time or discussion lags), the player with the most votes will be lynched.

In case of a tie, first come, first served.

In case of an endgame (six players or fewer) only simply majority lynches will occur.

There would have been a tie, yes, and xyzzy

would have been lynched anyway

.

[Mizzy]

So you knew that no one else was going to vote Adel?

You knew that, for certain, at the time you unvoted and chose not to vote anyone else? And it wasn't worth putting Adel closer, since there was no chance of anyone besides xyzzy being lynched?

That's amazing.

Wait, so you're suggesting that I should not vote to lynch one person whom I was not convinced was scum in favor of someone

else

I was not convinced was scum? I didn't support the lynch of ANYone at that time, because even after daytalking, I had no real notion of who was scum.

I would seriously appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth...that's scummy as hell.

I had no way of knowing for sure that Adel would not get another vote, and never said I did. However, after talking with 3 people and chatting in the thread, I was pretty sure we weren't going to have a real lynch and I sure as hell wasn't going to vote with no evidence that anyone was scum.

While you're pressuring me about my apparently scummy-as-hell unvote to not partake the lynch of someone I didn't think should be lynched, why don't you get on Phate's case, because he voted a totally useless vote and he could have tied things, too. In fact, scotmany didn't even bother PLAYING, and could have helped. Primate wasn't voting, either. So why am I getting all of the flack from you for a crappy case with no foundation?

[Mizzy]

Vollkan: Mizzy unvoted later. She both unvoted in closer proximity to deadline -- and after you did so. Her protection/buttering to you is a main pillar of my suspicion. So imo finding her suspicious over you is very legitimate. I could see you two being scum together, I could see her being scum and you not, I'm not really sure I could see you scum and her not.

Mizzy: note that I am on Phate's case. He was my first vote after replacing in, and still, no one has wanted to comment at all about him being scummy. I find that infuriating, but just sitting there would breed stagnation, so I'm considering other suspects.

Primate's post near the end of day 1 was his last post in the game, I'm hesitant to characterized him as anything other than bored. But I'll look into him/Xtoxm.

scotmany is dead.

So Mizzy, I don't see how I am being inconsistent at all in voting you for that unvote.

My point in mentioning others is that a) I had recently replaced in, b) there was so little information that I didn't feel comfortable going to D2 with any votes out there, and c) I'm not the only one who didn't have a vote out. I still fail to see how you could continue to keep this WIFOM case in your mind as justified.

[Mizzy]

Let me try a different tact:

Mizzy, in one post in your own words, without referencing a case you or someone else has previously made, could you explain why you find kab suspicious?

I can try, yes. I will try to explain my feelings on him as best as I can.

Kab comes off as all talk and no action. What I mean there is that he makes accusatory posts that reference prior events that are recollections of those events and doesn't bother to go back and make sure. He seems to have a bit of a commitment problem until he gets backed into a corner, and even then he's as fickle as the wind. He is trying very hard to build cases that are insubstantial. He's playing on the defensive, not the aggressive, and I can't remember him doing very much of what I consider to be real scumhunting. All in all, his plays seem half-hearted, at best.

[Mizzy]

That type of post is exactly why I suspect you so strongly, Kab. You don't learn from your mistakes and you don't pay attention.

All talk and no action... what do you call basically an entire page of me and vollkan going at it? That's not action... hm... I guess I'll write an entire page next time? Commitment is something I get a lot of flack for, I'd rather be sure of myself than just fling my vote around.

Exactly...it was a page of banter. It accomplished nothing, and within that page, I can't find evidence of you getting off your rear and doing anything. Just debating. All talk, no action. A LOT of talk, really, and no action. You even failed to defend yourself properly.

Commitment problems from you come in more forms that just lack of voting. You seem to try and put as little real content in your actions and posts as possible, and saying something plainly, and clearly, is a form of commitment in this type of game.

My case against JDodge is not insubstantial, you are just all listening to vollkan and not taking into account my arguments. You all just listen to him, thinking him to be the all knowing voice of wisdom. I learned that scumtell from very experienced players, it is not insubstantial, and yet you all disbelieve it just because vollkan is arguing against it.

I've read and reviewed your arguments very carefully, Kab, and I find them to be insubstantial. Volkan's arguments and opinions have nothing to do with that conclusion of mine.

I also don't believe in scumtells in the same way that the majority tends to, on these forums. There are only a few reliable universal scumtells, and this is not one of them. So honestly, I don't care where you learned it, or how experienced those people were, it's not a valid reason for me to believe or follow you, and even though I have offered you a chance to sway me, you have not even bothered to TRY to do so with anything worth giving a second glance to.

What more do I want from you? Answer Guardian's question. Properly.

For the record, that whole paragraph I just quoted by you (right above this) comes off as whiny, childish, and a pity party invitation. It's a serious blow to what little credibility you had in my eyes.

[Mizzy]

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan. He does exactly the same thing I did that whole page, except that you only target me. Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars. Talk is action in this game, it's the only action we have. Any posts, be they short or long, provide some sort of information. And obviously I didn't fail to defend myself, as some people's opinions have changed of me. Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

1) I never said I didn't see wrong in Volkan. Don't put words into my mouth, because I'll bite your arm off.

2) Volkan did NOT do exactly what you did. The fact that you think what you and he did were exactly the same shows that you didn't read it.

3) Talk is NOT action when it's empty talk.

4) You did fail to defend yourself in my eyes, and no, the fact that they changed back is very, very important.

I have voted for basically only two people this entire game. JDodge and Vollkan. How is that not showing committment in some way? You are very selective in what you bring to the table. I also believe you are not voting me. Are you noncomittal as well? We should make a club.

Again, you didn't

read

. I already said how that's not sufficient commitment. Look:

Commitment problems from you come in

more forms

that just lack of voting.

You seem to try and put as little real content in your actions and posts as possible, and saying something plainly, and clearly, is a form of commitment in this type of game.

Tell me what is insubstantial about them, so that I may refute certain parts rather than try to read your mind and guess which parts are insubstantial, so that I may better give information.

1) You use completely made-up "facts" and "statistics" to back up your claims that are unprovable and have no supporting data.

2) You make points that are incomplete or wholly incorrect because you post without double-checking the information you're presenting (aka getting past facts incorrect and presenting them as truth.)

3) You build cases around "scumtells" that you constantly perform yourself, the most blatant of which is the "scum don't read threads" bit from you, when there are multiple proven spots in this game where you have been caught not reading the thread.

4) You blow off your inconsistencies, misrepresentations, illusions, and mistakes without actually explaining them, nor do you make any noticeable attempt to avoid making them again in the future.

5) You selectively ignore parts of sentences, posts, and cases against you and ask for things when they have already been said because you are either too lazy or couldn't be f*cked to read the thread yourself.

6) You insert insults, passive-aggressive jibes, and fluff into your defenses to make them appear more "full."

7) When you are asked to answer questions, give reasons, or own up to your actions, you hesitate until the last possible moment, and often attempt to direct attention onto someone else without ever actually responding sufficiently, unless you are asked in such a way that you cannot dodge.

If this is the case, then you view scumtells through biased eyes. You do not like them and therefore carry a certain view about them even before you hear about them, and it seems to me that it is likely that you wouldn't listen to the greatest scumtell in the world. Therefore, there is nothing I can do in relation to trying to convince you that this tell is worthwhile.

Of course I view scumtells as mostly utter nonsense, however, I am more than willing to see them as valid with sufficient proof. You, instead of providing proof, choose to attack me. That's as good as admitting you have no proof. I could say a scumtell is someone with blue in their avatar, and if I present it with no truth or evidence to back it up, I would expect everyone to shoot me down. I'm shooting your evidence-less scumtells down. Provide me with evidence or get a better scumtell list.

Whiny, according to dictionary.com is complaining, fretful, cranky.
I complain about nothing. Mostly it's sarcasm. I take what you accused me of, repeated it so anyone who hadn't seen your accusations might know what I was referring to, and then refuted it. That's not complaining, that's going about refuting your argument in a logical and organized fashion. I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?
And I can't think of something clever to say about not being fretful, but, eh, I'm not. That about sums it up.

According to Guardian:

When I replaced in, I was suspicious of him, asking him a question about vollkan, but then I got sypathy for him when I PM'd him, thinking he was just a newer player having troubles

(he complained about all the experience in this game, etc)

. looking at it, hist join date is only a little after mine...

And these are pretty cranky, complainy and fretful, not to mention childish:

I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?

My case against JDodge is not insubstantial, you are just all listening to vollkan and not taking into account my arguments. You all just listen to him, thinking him to be the all knowing voice of wisdom.

Ball's back in your court.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and just to prove my point about the fluffed-up Kab posts, I have crossed out all of the fluff from this one:

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan.

He does exactly the same thing I did that whole page, except that you only target me.

Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars.

Talk is action in this game, it's the only action we have. Any posts, be they short or long, provide some sort of information. And obviously I didn't fail to defend myself, as some people's opinions have changed of me.

Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

I have voted for basically only two people this entire game. JDodge and Vollkan. How is that not showing committment in some way?

You are very selective in what you bring to the table. I also believe you are not voting me. Are you noncomittal as well? We should make a club.

Tell me what is insubstantial about them, so that I may refute certain parts

rather than try to read your mind and guess which parts are insubstantial, so that I may better give information.

If this is the case, then you view scumtells through biased eyes.

You do not like them and therefore carry a certain view about them even before you hear about them, and it seems to me that it is likely that you wouldn't listen to the greatest scumtell in the world.

Therefore, there is nothing I can do in relation to trying to convince you that this tell is worthwhile.

Whiny, according to dictionary.com is complaining, fretful, cranky.

I complain about nothing. Mostly it's sarcasm.

I take what you accused me of, repeated it so anyone who hadn't seen your accusations might know what I was referring to, and then refuted it. That's not complaining, that's going about refuting your argument in a logical and organized fashion. I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?
And I can't think of something clever to say about not being fretful, but, eh, I'm not. That about sums it up.

P.S.

I voted your scum-encrusted rear in post #392. READ THE THREAD.

[Mizzy]

Vollkan, I've already said that it's an obvious thought process. Scum have reasons not to read the thread, even if that is one out of one hundred scum that don't read thread, that is still more than townies who don't read thread.

Mizzy once again attacks my posts, reducing the so called fluff. Most of said fluff that she crossed out is directed at her and so she declares it to be fluff. Awesome.

unvote, vote: Mizzy.

What, no response to any of my case? My points? My retorts? Just, once again, a simple, contentless post with some bullshit in it?

What I crossed out were filler sentences that I ALREADY ADDRESSED in the previous post of mine.

[Mizzy]

I'm not sure this bit is actually fluff. The fact people changed back just reflects how your play is being viewed, which is important.

I marked it as fluff because it's an extra he threw in that didn't help his case; it hurt it. He tried to play it off like it didn't matter. It didn't need to be in there; it may help us, but to the purpose of his post, it's fluff.

Not fluff. She had voted you though. YOU AREN'T READING THE THREAD!! The stuff about her being noncommital is meaningless swiping.

Fluff because he's trying to pass a lie off as truth, and again toss in a diss. It didn't need to be in there; it may help us, but to the purpose of his post, it's fluff.

[Mizzy]

Eh, if being suicidal is the only way to open the eyes of the town once I am dead and gone to the deeds of Mizzy and perhaps vollkan and JDodge, then so be it. Nothing else was working. Maybe once I am revealed to be town, you'll think more about what I said.

You ARE dead. That was the lynch vote, unless I miss my guess.

[Mizzy]

I'm going to re-read too...I thought I had a really solid case and I feel like a good bit of butt about being wrong. I'm sorry. I'll understand if I come under fire for it.

[Mizzy]

Before we all start voting, perhaps we should do some talking? I back a no-lynch but we can get some info from this, too, before we hammer a no-lynch home.

[Mizzy]

No Lynch is the best option for us today. We will then open up tomorrow with more information. Prolonging discussion today will not be of any substantial help (at best) and will potentially give the scum more of a lead regarding who to NK.

*sigh* I just feel like it's giving up, I guess. But you're right.

Vote: No Lynch

[Mizzy]

Phate, who have you been talking to? If it's a townie, then you might get mod-killed, and if you don't get mod-killed or mod-smacked in some way...then you didn't break the rules...

[Mizzy]

Unvote

because Lucy has some 'splainin' to do.

[Mizzy]

Phate, who have you been talking to? If it's a townie, then you might get mod-killed, and if you don't get mod-killed or mod-smacked in some way...then you didn't break the rules...

Mizzy, I don't understand this statement. How could he know whether or not he's been talking to a townie unless he's scum? Both yours and Phate's statements seem to have some implied knowledge within them. We can't do anything about this now since it's twilight but we'll clearly have plenty to discuss come morning.

It should be pretty obvious, and no, it doesn't imply any knowledge.

I asked Phate to tell us who he was talking to, if anyone, during night phase (he answered "no one" already, and granted he could have lied but it was worth a try, no?) and the mod would know whether or not that person had been town or scum. If Phate had broken the rules, the mod would have taken action, I would hope. It was a long shot, and since Phate already answered, it's a moot long shot.

[Mizzy]

and that bit about night talking just now seems damn incriminating.

Really? How so? I think that's a non-argument plucked out of no-where - How is that at all scummy?

I was under the impression night-talk was allowed. And it really makes no difference as far as I can tell. Only if you are talking to the one that dies, and that insignificant the way I see it.

If you thought that night-talk was allowed between townies, then you didn't read the rules or the name of the game.

It's scummy (or could be) in my eyes because, as it was pointed out, how could you make it through two nights in this game without realizing? I suppose if you're not talking to ANYone, you might make it without noticing, but still. It's worrisome, especially with the other points against Phate that nearly got him lynched earlier.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, are you thinking of Triumvirate mafia, when I WAS recently lynched?

as a townie, for active lurking...

Yes, sorry, over-worked currently and dealing with some real life trauma. Sorry. Ignore me.

This may be a good time to mention, then, that I

may

need to replace out. My maternity leave begins in a couple weeks and until then, things are hectic. I won't ask for replacement unless things get really bad, though.

[Mizzy]

Sorry Mizzy -- and kab -- I hope you still keep up with mafia after this! (I PM'd extensively with both of them and I'm pretty sure they trusted me ;X)

Oh, you will get yours, Mister, you just wait

Trust me, I won't stop playing ^^ I may be hormonal but I am stubborn and self-righteous as well!

[Mizzy]

I'm really surprised you decided to vote so quick Adel. What was your logic?

we were hosed, so identifying scum trying to join a wagon for a quick lynch would be our best chance. When nobody joined me on the Phate wagon I figured that he must be scum.

No worries, Adel, you're right, we were pretty fucked and I wasn't confident enough to vote because of how wrong I'd been earlier