Mini #643: Time Capsule Mafia, Game Over

[icemanE]

Yikes, L-1 already, that's completely nuts, especially in this setup! If we lynch him we won't even discover his alignment!

vote: Ythill

for placing the L-1 vote and

FoS: Clammy and SensFan

for placing the second and third baseless bandwagon votes.

Looks like we might be out of the random voting stage already.

[icemanE]

Counting - I'm doin' it wrong.

[icemanE]

It seems like there's a history between Clammy and Darox - therefore I'm not overly suspicious of Clammy. Roff's was the first vote, so he's not too suspicious either. It's Sens and Y that come off scummy for 3rd and 4th BW votes so early.

[icemanE]

please explain how you managed to be so mistaken about the vote count.

I just finished a game today (Mini 618) so I was in endgame mode - got confused.

Please explain why my vote L-3 would have been more likely to come from scum.

It's Sens and Y that come off scummy for 3rd and 4th BW votes so early.

Bandwagons are great, on scummy people. Darox hasn't done anything even remotely scummy yet, so the BW is uncalled for. I can see it getting to two or maybe even three, but 4 is crazy, especially 4 straight posts in a row. The ease with which you withdrew your vote comes off a tad suspicious as well - once your vote was questioned, you pulled it. Your claim that you BW voted for info and to end the RV stage seems legitimate though, and you're correct that you accomplished both.

unvote - vote: Snitch

for the FoS fest without a vote.

[icemanE]

Page 1, day 1, I see someone act in an apparently anti-town way, I'm going to vote for them.

QFT, Ythill is massively overreacting to the votes put on him for something he did which deserved votes.

[icemanE]

"Deserved votes" is subjective.

In my post, deserved votes was there to say that the votes that were placed on you were deserved - that is, you deserved to be voted for.

Nobody has yet been able to explain how my vote helped scum. Can you?

Putting someone closer to a lynch without a solid reason helps scum for obvious reasons - it makes it that much easier to lynch said person.

But you expect us to believe that my action was "anti-town" because it risked the life of someone who's alignment you supposedly don't know?

Working from the assumption that someone is scum when they've done nothing suspicious is anti-town. You're basically saying here, and correct me if I'm wrong, that since we don't know anyone's alignment but our own, we can lynch anyone without a good reason and it's not a problem?

Yos (and others) keep saying that my action was anti-town, that it was scummy. These are buzzwords, not cases.

Are there words you'd prefer to be used? Those words denote one's suspicions - I've explained why I'm voting for you.

[icemanE]

If I had said, "Wash that pan so we can cook bacon," would you assume that I was saying the pan was bacon?

Um... no, but that's not the same as saying "Vote:X so we can lynch scum." Essentially your comparison implies that you didn't mean to say that the vote itself is scum, which of course you didn't, but saying "I'm voting for this person so we can lynch scum" ... no matter how you read that sentence, within the context of a mafia game (not a cooking lesson), you vote for someone to lynch them, or at least because you consider them scummy, so if your reason for voting someone is "so we can lynch scum", it is obviously going to appear as if you're voting for that person so you can lynch scum.

In a flurry of drunken cross-posting, I seem to have glazed over a couple of relevant points.

Using inebriation as an excuse for poor posting or reading... just wait until you're sober and do a good job.

Right, because someone is going to claim @ L-3 on page 1, with no cases against them. A player stupid or reactive enough to do that would be doomed anyway. Try coming up with something more realistic.

If that stupid or reactive player is a cop or a doctor or something else useful for the town, it's still totally disadvantageous to pressure them into claiming. I don't see your point.

Nobody worth their role was going to claim in that spot.

Again, regardless of whether or not they're "worth their role", forcing a protown role to claim is pointless and can only harm the town. If someone doesn't "deserve" to be the cop or tracker or any other useful role, it doesn't mean they won't be helping the town every night.

I said that scum wouldn't vote late and hammer and only eluded that town wouldn't lynch someone so quickly, so you are misrepresenting my argument.

WIFOM, and by your own logic above, roles are randomized - it's just as likely that a poor player will be scum as it is that a good player will get the role - so you can't have any idea what scum will or will not do.

When you talk of others following onto the wagon, you state, as evidence, a hypothetical situation and completely neglect the fact that, if a wagon were to get too close to lynch that early, townies would have started unvoting.

Scum can ALWAYS rush a lynch when the town isn't looking - there's no guarantee that every protown player is sitting at their computer clicking the refresh button to see what the vote count is at. Your use of the "Hypothetical situation" argument is invalid, as you earlier stated that it's not anti-town to lynch for someone we don't know is town - which is an entirely hypothetical situation.

You are looking at the idea of wagoning in a vacuum, neglecting to consider when and how it occured.

The how and when are what's scummy about the wagon - if the wagon came after Darox did something blatantly scummy, I'd be fine with it and would probably be on it.

I'm still happy with my vote on Ythill.

[icemanE]

please post your impressions of the people who stumbled into the trap.

Please pull your head out of your arse and realize that what you did was not a trap, as Yos has explained several times. Putting a 4th vote on someone for no reason and then not expecting people to vote for you for it (and then going even further and calling those who voted for you scummy) is idiocy.

Additionally, accusing Yos and I of being scum buddies because we agree (along with most of the rest of the town) that you are worthy of the votes put on you is ridiculous, as is the "fear-mongering" concept.

we're taling about people who moved quickly and decisively from random to serious voting and pursuing cases against someone for a single null tell.

According to you, your vote was the first to remove us from the RV stage:

Feel free to confirm that I do not random vote.

The "single null tell" which wasn't null in the first place may have started the wagon, but what you've said and done since then is what has fueled it.

Everything I've said in addition to what Yos has brought up and your OMGUS style of play makes me happy with my vote still.

[icemanE]

@Ythill:

Haha. First, I "accused" you of being scum buddies because you seem smart but, like Yos, you are using slippery arguments and improbable hypothetical situations to make me seem anti-town.

Trying to make you seem anti-town and pointing out where you've actually

been

anti-town are two different things. I don't see a single one of my points as being an "improbable hypothetical situation" - they're all perfectly plausible and justified, so attempting to dismiss them as nonsense is unreasonable.

It seems you're playing more with OMGUS in mind than anything else. I know it's difficult to separate those who are attacking you from those you consider scummy by virtue of the fact that they're in opposition to what you're saying, but attempting to dismiss pro-town behavior as scummy is a hindrance to the town and accentuates/exaggerates earlier actions which, in and of themselves, weren't as scummy as they become once a poor defense is built to defend them (I'm speaking here of the "trap" defense, which I don't buy as a plausible argument).

About the paper:

At this point, I don't think we can make any solid arrangements for paper use, as we have yet to open a time capsule to discover what sorts of things will be recorded. I suppose those who have paper could breadcrumb, but I'm not sure what end we can use the paper towards currently.

[icemanE]

"we have yet to open a time capsule to discover what sorts of things will be recorded"?

I assumed that each individual with a piece of paper had the power to write whatever they wanted on it. That's the case, right?

[icemanE]

Thus, waiting until we see a piece of paper come out of a time capsule in order to find out what we should all do with our paper makes no damn sense.

Good point. But I was thinking, if we made no plan night one, and just saw what happened day 2, it might be more worthwhile than planning it out.

[icemanE]

Two rules which have been broken:

9.) If you notice there has been a lynch, stop posting.

I just broke this one, but we need to stop posting as Y has been lynched.

10.) Above all, Respect the No-Reveal aspect of this game. If you do not, I will not only modkill you, but I will find a way to further harm your faction.

Y broke this one when he died. Can we not break any more rules?

[icemanE]

Yeah, I don't really see how that paper helps us - I also have no idea why anyone, scum or town, would write that particular message - it's not advantageous to the scum and it's not helpful to the town.

or, the mod could just be using a RNG to kill people

Somehow I don't know if I believe that - what would the goal of this game be if there are no scum? Simply to discover that there aren't scum? If so, we win.

[icemanE]

It could also be the mod set up a few messages to go off at pre-determined times before the game even started, just to ensure we'd get some kind of note every day.

That's what I'm thinking at this point.

[icemanE]

Hmm... how would everyone feel about a no-lynch today?

[icemanE]

Yeah, I did have a good reason for suggesting a no lynch and I'm trying my damndest to remember what it is. It had something to do with the fact that we don't know at this point what type of scum we're up against, or if there are scum at all. But I think it's more or less decided at this stage that there are scum of one variant or another, despite the weird message in the capsule.

[icemanE]

Even if you did vote him for "Jumping on an easy wagon"
It feels like swaying the wagon onto Roffman from MLF.

unvote - vote: Clammy

[icemanE]

Hello, sorry I've been so damn inactive. Been hiking for the past few days.

It's been said that I should commit to a position before deadline, and I agree.

unvote - vote: Roffman

It seems the choice is between MLF and Roff today - the "MLF hammered" argument, which is as far as I can tell the only point against him, is not a good one.

I will look further into roff but of the two apparent plays today, a roff lynch seems more justified at this stage.

[icemanE]

That’s all you had to say. Please explain. I really think that a roffman lynch could be possible but there IMO are others more suspicious.

If you want an honest answer, I was pressed for time and realized I hadn't contributed anything to the game for awhile. My clammy vote was purely for pressure.

[icemanE]

By my math that gives you (between your last content post Aug 7th and the latest Aug 25th) - 18 days of time to post something.

Indeed, but between other games with more significant issues to tackle, modding a HM game, and being generally insanely busy IRL, I haven't had much time to delve deeply into this game.

This was all you posted.
Nowhere did you mention pressure, it looked to me like you were agreeing with my suspicions.

Right. Over the games I've played I've observed that stating "I'm placing this vote in the name of PRESSURE!" accomplishes nothing. If you want to place an effective pressure vote, you have to do it with at least a thin veil over it.

But your newest vote has you contradicting yourself (I assume you had seconded my above argument since you quoted me) by jumping on the Roff wagon with this as your reasoning

I guess I don't see the contradiction. If you could elaborate, I'd appreciate it.

[icemanE]

Isn't that contradictory that you would vote to "pressure" someone and then turn around and follow his vote?

I didn't think Clammy was particularly scummy - but when a game slows down, or I lose interest in it, bandwagoning someone to get a response is useful. It's not contradictory to vote for someone that someone you bandwagoned voted for, at all. Do you think my vote will be more useful on Clammy than on Roff at this stage?

[icemanE]

Actually at this stage your vote on Roff was useless you put the fith vote on someone who was going to be deadline lynched (4 votes) in a few more hours.

Actually that's a good point. Until the mod posted that votecount I didn't realize that it only took 4 votes at the deadline to call it a lynch. Now that Knight has unvoted, my vote counts, though, so I'll leave it where it is.

The primary reason I switched from Clammy to Roffman wasn't because of anything Clammy said or did to convince me I shouldn't be voting for him - it was because I was asked to choose a side before the deadline hit, and that made sense to me - I've been pretty inactive here, so I wanted to make sure I had a stake in the game that counted for something.

[icemanE]

Pile of crap to de....?

...fend himself perhaps?

[icemanE]

And potentially more useful. I'd say these were written by players, not the mod.

I guess I'll look back through and search for anything that hints at a "pile of crap"?

[icemanE]

Yes, I agree with Knight and TSPN on MLF.

[icemanE]

Right, forgot to move the vote.

vote: MLF

[icemanE]

I also think Yos is telling the truth.

[icemanE]

Agreeing with other people's arguments is not a scumtell.

But you're right, I should have

unvote

d in my last post.

[icemanE]

IcemanE's forgetfulness to unvote just seemed a little off to me as well.

Really? What would I stand to gain by leaving my vote on you after you'd just been cleared?

[icemanE]

Right, Darox, but he got "not mafia" for Clammy too. So unless they are independent and both scum (possible), your theory doesn't work too well.

[icemanE]

The most interesting note so far is the one that cuts off at the maximum amount of letters, maybe tomorrow we'll get the rest of the sentence.

[icemanE]

Surely the person who wrote that would have known it'd be cut off... either they wanted to induce this kind of puzzling over it, or they were gambling on getting more paper somehow.

Hmm... you could be right, but I don't know why they'd want us puzzling over it.

Question: Do you think the coroner would be able to tell us flat out through the paper that we'd killed a scum, and tell us who it is, or would they have to do it in a roundabout fashion without being specific?

[icemanE]

Interesting. Do you think Yos may have got "not mafia" because the no reveal also applies to the mod?

[icemanE]

I'm just interested in how impacting the no reveal is, and that first note about there being no scum sort of tripped me up in my thinking about this game.

[icemanE]

Massclaim works.

[icemanE]

Massclaim tomorrow works just as well. However, just as a sidenote, my role is quite strange, unlike anything I've seen in another game, quite specific and related to the theme of this game, so I'm not 100% sure the massclaim will help us separate friend from foe. Knowing the roles, though, will most likely help, as I'm quite unsure how mine can be usefully applied for the benefit of the town.

[icemanE]

Not if we massclaim tomorrow.

[icemanE]

IT IS THE BIG BAD POWERFUL ROLE THAT SHALL REMAIN UN-NAMED!

Eh. I wouldn't go that far.

[icemanE]

Any reason for placing the seeds in the boxes you did?

[icemanE]

Perhaps the "no scum faction" message we got was a result of the ivy seed being placed in the 2002 capsule?

The capsule begins to crumble. A twisting bundle of ivy curls out of the metal, as if freshly grown. A small piece of paper also flutters to the ground, following the heavy thud of a key.

Any thoughts? It always sounded to me like that message was built into the game setup, in other words, designed by the mod to get us scratching our heads. Perhaps, depending on which capsule the Hort put the seed into, that would determine what day we got that particular message.

Also, I believe the claim, though it says nothing about alignment. After all, his claim i s verifiable in 2005.

[icemanE]

Hmm... in one sense, pacman has already used his role and it's going to serve it's purpose no matter what. So regardless, he should not be excused as a candidate for lynch based solely upon the claim. Also we also have no idea what his alignment is.

[icemanE]

Mmm, I'm not convinced that pacman is scum, but I wanted to make sure everyone realized that lynching him won't cost us anything power-role-wise since he's already done all that he can.

I'm not sure I understand why his role necessarily indicates that he's scum, if you could elaborate TSPN, that would be nice. What was "false" about his seed?

It's clear there are some strikingly non-traditional roles here - I'm quite curious what the lynched players' roles were, and almost wish the game was not no-reveal for that purpose.

That's the

one

thing about Yos' claim that makes me wary of it's validity - while it's certainly nowhere near out of the realm of possibility, a simple cop in a game with a role like "horticulturist" seems out of place. However, it would be a bold move to claim cop and clear scumbuddies. Then again, since it's no-reveal, it's easy enough to slide that past the town - we have no way to prove Yos' claim definitively.

The roles are certainly going to complicate this game. I think a massclaim might be in order sometime on the horizon.

[icemanE]

In fact, I almost wish we'd massclaimed yesterday or perhaps even Day 1. Though there's no way to prove claims true or false, we could sort out how to utilize roles and speculate on them further. Had I known more roles than mine were out of the ordinary, I would have proposed it.

I think, if we do mass-claim, we should include, as pacman did, both exactly what our role is, and how we used it (if we have), and perhaps even whether we have paper or not, and what we've written if we have. A complete, comprehensive claim might be productive here. We have no idea what stage in the game we're at, truly - we could be nearing lylo, for all we know.

[icemanE]

So what do people think about the massclaim?

[icemanE]

I'll start then.

I'm the tally-man. I can target a capsule at night and see how many papers are inside it. I have no idea what use this power has, which is why I've been itching to claim all along. I haven't used my power yet.

[icemanE]

Oh right - I also have one piece of paper. Also haven't used it yet.

[icemanE]

Popcorn?

[icemanE]

Should I pick someone then?

[icemanE]

I'm gonna ask Snitch to claim next then.

[icemanE]

I can use the tally every night, but haven't used it either night yet. However, N-1, I attempted to use it on 2002, but was informed that I wasn't going to be told about the papers placed in the 2002 capsule (since people were placing them that night). Also, I was told that capsules may or may not actually open on the date they are intended to open on, which is interesting now that I'm rereading the PM. I forgot to use my power on N-2 - I might have been V/LA, can't really remember, but either way I've got nothing. However, I think I should use it on 2005 tonight to attempt to verify that at least one piece of paper is in that capsule (to verify pacman's claim - though I have no idea if the seeds will show up in my results?).

[icemanE]

@Darox -

Did your results happen to tell you what the dead players' roles were, or just their alignments?

[icemanE]

What if he left something off like the ability to take and or replace notes in a capsule. Seems more of a role for a tally man instead of a note counter.

I can't remove, or move papers. A tally man - why would he be able to do that? Tallying is counting.

[icemanE]

what would be the point in counting is my question?

That's exactly what I'm wondering, and that's why I've been saying throughout the game that I want to claim - so people can help me understand what good my power is.

Tally man can only tell us what we know at the begining of each year when a capsule is opened.... how many papers are in that capsule. again your claim seems like it is lacking something..... what else is there IcemanE?

That's it - I can count papers in a given capsule. I also have one sheet which I haven't used yet.

On top of that you haven't even used your night action....... not really believable. If I had something other than townie I would be using that as much as I could to aide the town.

I explained why I didn't on night 2 already. I actually did use it the first night but it didn't go through, as I explained.

As far as I can tell, my power is useful because I can investigate any capsule at night to find out how many papers are in it. So, I suppose if someone said they placed a paper in a certain capsule, I could check at night to make sure there's something there... but that's about the extent of it, I think. Remember that papers added during the night I use my power aren't tallied (that's why my N-1 action didn't work), so it's possible to catch someone in a lie.

Do you think it's a good idea for us all to reveal how (if) we've used our papers, so I can verify that tonight?

Pacman - does your role specify or mention anything about only you being able to use the seeds?

Also, I'm inherently suspicious of the vanilla claims - it seems like the type of game where everyone has a power role of some sort or another - I mean, tally man, horticulturist... these are atypical roles to say the least.

Darox and Yos I believe claim-wise. Others, I'm on the fence about.

[icemanE]

However... Yos' cop claim... now that I think about it, why would we have a mortician

and

a cop in a no-reveal... a mortician makes much more sense, and actually a cop doesn't make much sense at all for a game where we aren't allowed to reveal our roles even after death. Shucks, now I've got to rethink everything.

I'm thinking we might lynch pacman today, because not only is he scummy, but Darox can investigate him tonight... but we don't have a doc to protect him... gah, this bites.

[icemanE]

Before we do anything I want some direction as far as what date I should use my ability on tonight.

Maybe I missed something, Yos, but when did Rotten Snitch suddenly become "the lynch"? You seem to imply that in one of your posts.

As far as doubting your claim, I'm just throwing out options. Especially in a no-reveal game like this, I think it's important to never rule someone out completely based on role claims.

[icemanE]

and it looks to me like you've been trying to do so all day.

Heh? When have I doubted your claim until that post? I remember saying I don't necessarily trust the results of your investigation.

I laid it out in my analysis post just above; Based on my reread of the roffman lynch, and Darox's claim that Roffman was scum, I think Rotten Snitch looks linked to him pretty strongly; it looks like he was trying to defend Roffman without looking like he was doing that for most of the day.

Right, right, but you also say this:

Um...pacman, we're lynching Rotten Snitch today. Unless he's your scumbuddy?

That's why I asked why you said he was "the lynch", as if it were agreed upon by the town, when in fact it seemed you were the only one who was thinking that way.

[icemanE]

First you tried to imply that I might not be sane

No, someone else said that.

I said I thought your results may or may not clear your targets, since it's no reveal, and I have no bearings whatsoever on the structure of this game (though the massclaim certainly helped).

then either way, if you can plant enough doubt in the town's mind, you accomplish your goal, which would be to discredit my investigations.

Thanks for telling me what my goal is.

That's not my goal. My goal is to try to understand and get a grip on what's happening in this game - part of the aim of a massclaim is to find which roles you believe, and which might be fabricated. I'm still sorting through that.

Speaking of that, I would like you to answer my question when you get a chance; in case you missed it:

While that's not technically a question, I'll do it. Give me a day or two, busy man.

About him being "the lynch", you seemed to assume the role of the town by saying "this is who we're lynching today" when in fact, at that point, it was really just you saying that.

[icemanE]

Also, RS, why would you doubt strange claims in a strange setup? You have to figure you're gonna see some weird stuff in a game that incorporates secret messages in time capsules. I agree with the idea that you're trying to outguess the mod.

[icemanE]

I really wish there wasn't a deadline, as I'm still not sold on RS, but he's got the majority as it stands, so I guess he's going down.

Before deadline hits, please give me an idea on how I should use the tally tonight?!?!

[icemanE]

Well, my results verify what we already know this morning - nothing in the 2004 capsule prior to night three actions.

[icemanE]

Are we to believe you have failed to get any real results for three consecutive nights?

Yes, you should.

I was hoping to catch someone in a lie today - that's why I picked the 2004 capsule, but no one did anything with it last night.

Which means I have no way to prove my role, which sucks.

It seems it's going to be me or pacman today, and I agree that it should be one or the other of us. Clearly I don't think it should be me, and honestly I think it should be pacman - how are you going to verify anything about him tomorrow? His seed is going to be there regardless, and whether or not it's there, it still won't prove his alignment.

vote: pacman

[icemanE]

Wait a minute...

The twilight frost glistens, tiny crystalline pods for incubated blades of grass. Acorns and vines crunch underfoot.

The time capsule machine glows eerily in the clearing, first red and then green. It is the only source of a very faint light, until six pairs of eyes reflect the luminescence. Yosarian2 is no more.

We never even opened today's pod...

[icemanE]

No false claim, no info I didn't reveal.

Straight-forward, the truth.

I wouldn't waste your mortician on me, as when you lynch me, you'll know I was town because the day will proceed. Then again, you'll probably die tonight anyways, and also, you don't really have anyone else to use it on. But I advocate lynching pacman today, clearly.

[icemanE]

Question - who will you all pick as a good target for lynch tomorrow?

[icemanE]

Wait a minute - is the only case against me my claim, and then TSPN's crap case about me not being on the wagon?

I agree with pacman here - TSPN has established a false dillema that even I fell for before I thought about it. I'm going to reread TSPN.

[icemanE]

Question - who will you all pick as a good target for lynch tomorrow?

[icemanE]

How the hell are you going to be able to tell what his seeds do or don't do?

Pacman himself doesn't even know!

Also, do you feel that the benefits of having Pacman alive for the potential good the seeds could do is worth the risk of the potential damage they could do if he's scum?

[icemanE]

In the interest of moving this game forward, I'm considering a self-hammer. Would that be appropriate?

[icemanE]

Waiting on TSPN's answer to pacman's post...

[icemanE]

TSPN points out the weakness in pacman's case that I also saw. It only works as a false-dilemma if it meets the criteria pac provides, and it doesn't.

Also, pac's quote in TSPN's post 517 is damning, as far as I'm concerned. Commenting on how he missed both scum wagons, then trying to find out why I was being lynched so you could decide whether or not it's a good idea to jump on my wagon... I just don't get it. At this stage in the game, where there's probably only one scum left, the only reason you'd need to look into that is to avoid looking scummy tomorrow when I'm lynched and the game is still going.

That is your story, yes. But when you spend one post attacking one person, and then at the end say, "well, I'm going to reread and maybe I'll still jump on the leading wagon," that is suspicious.

Exactly.

[icemanE]

Now what must we do?

Lynch you, is my suggestion.

If I need to be lynched today, I understand that, as everyone's eager to see what happens with the seed tomorrow.

The flaw is, if we're waiting for another message to come out of the capsule as a result of pacman's seed, tomorrow will be a WIFOM storm. Paper can still be placed in the capsule, so something could emerge regardless of whether it's due to pac's seed or not.

[icemanE]

Thus I think pacman would make a better lynch tomorrow when we can see if his seed turns out useless/negative.

What I'm saying is, pacman could easily slide a paper in the capsule tonight with something that looks protown on it... I mean, there's not way to tell if what his seed does is protown or not outside the realm of WIFOM.

[icemanE]

Yeah, let's do me today and ya'll can take care of pacman tomorrow.

unvote - vote: Iceman

[icemanE]

Wait, mlf is finally back. Anything to add? You're the guy who hasn't been talking today...

unvote

until then.

[icemanE]

Now that people have returned to the thread, I'm going back to the person I actually think should be lynched.

vote: pacman

[icemanE]

I mean, there are enough of you that you can lynch me without my help, now that MLF came back. I don't actually want to be lynched, but I also don't want to waste everyone's time. I still think pac should be lynched.

[icemanE]

OK, I'm serious about what I said, but of the potential townies we could kill today, it does seem like I'm the safest bet, as I still think my power is more or less useless, and I'll just wind up being the lynch tomorrow if pacman somehow turns up town today.

Good luck everybody.

unvote - vote: Iceman

[icemanE]

2 Questions:

1. What were you hoping the tallyman role could do, in particular? I couldn't really figure out its use.

2. What were the possible effects of the seeds?

[icemanE]

Also, I'd like to add that:

A. I really enjoyed this unique setup.

B. I TOLD you the "pile of crap" message got cut off because of the length!

C. To address this:

And then you self-hammer? Pacman can't turn up town today, you idiot, because a) it's no reveal and b) you just self-hammered.
God help you after this game if you are town, boy.

OK, dickhole. I was working under the impression that there was one scum left - pretty sure everyone else was too (other than the scum). If we lynched me today I figured you'd be smart enough to figure out you hadn't hung mafia because the game would continue into the next day. If we'd lynched pacman and he was scum... I assumed the game would end because I thought there was one scum. But if he flipped town, we'd continue into the next day, and I knew I'd be the one on the chopping block. So, suck a fat one, you were wrong too.