Mini Theme 2222: Open Draft Mafia [Game Over]

[mastina]

Hi there!

Fair warning, while I really love the setup's concept, I've not actually taken the time to research the current iteration of the setup which was made the Open that it is in this game.

Which is to say, in a game where everyone starts with roles, and thus knowing whether to take one or pass it on is important, I've not done my research yet and I need to.

I'll be contributing more once I've actually read the exact setup down to its finer intricacies. I know the basics obviously but I need to read up on the finer specifics of the final form of the setup before delving into things more deeply.

I'm not sure whether I should prioritize doing that before reads or give reads now and do that later, but either way, I'm probably not doing the mech-reading until tomorrow (it's kinda late tonight, I'm a bit physically miserable thanks to mosquito bites* which is actually the reason I logged onto mafiascum tonight, so I am not in the shape to do the mechreading to lock things down until Wednesday at the earliest).

With that said, I'll decide between "do reads tonight and prioritize them over mech" or "prioritize mech over reads, and wait to post more until tomorrow" after I,
1: post this, and,
2: have a bathroom break as I have a sudden urge/need to.

*

Spoiler: Details of the mosquito bite situation (spoilered both for length, offtopicness, and also potentially triggering content

Something I genuinely am wondering if there is a way to find out if this is a just-me thing or if it happens to others even if it is not universal;

When I get mosquito bites, they send the exact same message to my brain as a scratch does. As in, this is a signal my brain interprets as, "this area is itchy because it is bleeding".

The itchy part for mosquito bites, sure, yes, that is fairly universal--but when I say literally identical to a wound like a scratch, I mean it; it's not just itchy with a mosquito bite, it's itchy + mild pain + sensation that

I am currently bleeding

in that spot. Not "oh you WERE bleeding there" (even tho that's technically more accurate), "you ARE currently bleeding, right there".

I'm wondering if mosquito bites sending the exact same message to my brain as an open wound is something unique to me or something others experience, mostly because I also want to know if my experience when I have ~12-16 mosquito bites in close proximity to each other in the area I got them (knee/thigh area) is just me or experienced by others--namely?

That instead of the issue being the itch from that many mosquito bites, the issue being that every waking second,

my body is telling me that I am badly bleeding from the legs

, and the psychological torture that is inflicting on me, since one mosquito bite telling me that is easy to override but literally over a dozen telling me that is something that I can't ignore.

My brain is literally, every time I receive the feedback signal from my legs, projecting the image that

I am leaking blood with it pouring down my legs

, even if I am staring at my legs and they are telling me the signal is wrong.

[mastina]

I see mason in my card pack and will be picking it tonight
If any other town player sees mason at some point this game with me alive, they should take it

VOTE: Bingle
Bingle amirite

Nah, I turned around. You’re left. It’s been a while since I looked at the deck, but I don’t remember any particular tricks as important. Dunn should probs not pick mason (we might can turn it into a parity cop), but I need to think on this. See y’all tomorrow.

Town.

VOTE: cyrus62

Still trying to set up mis elim.

VOTE: Taly

Town?

VOTE: flea

Scum? (Honestly hard to tell tho.)

Vote: Infinity 324

[mastina]

(Results; I decided to get reads...but I am tired and struggling ON said reads. )

[mastina]

VOTE: faer

Momra, I <3 you but I think you might be scum here </3

Nyeh!

You, however, are town. <3

Mastina, your accuracy rate for reading me is currently 1 to like 5, you can go for 2 out of 6! <3

Eh I'm not

sure

you're town, but I do lean town on the toucan here, so.

Vote: Momrangal

(Still not using vote tags for good reason, townreads here are easier than good scumreads.)
Flea the Magician
Dunnstral
Bingle

Taly
House
cyrus62
Almost50

Dwlee99

NDMath
T3

Infinity 324

Momrangal

Hereabouts.

[mastina]

Fabricated a read on a naked RVS votw.

Oh is this in reference to your vote on me?

I buy that.

(Which is to say, T3's vote on me is a fabricated read on my naked rvs post. This is far from T3's first game with me.)

Fabricated a read on a naked RVS votw.

Mastina does this

As town or as scum?

You should already know the answer to this given this was my first post post-alignment in Townstumps. A game you were in.

[mastina]

VOTE: mastina
You know what you did.

I actually don't?

T3 is towny I think

Call it OMGUS if you'd like, but I don't see it.

I see efforts to

appear as

town--but looking at them I don't actually

see

town.

[mastina]

is there a reason you post your reads the way

Helps me process my reads for myself.

The way my mind works, I can have a vague idea of "this player I see as town", "this player I see as scum", "this player I see as null", etc., but I don't have a good way in my mind of really seeing how town or how scum someone is naturally.

By forcing it into a readslist, by comparing names to other names, I can get different shades of town, scum, null, etc. I can separate people who I might've both called 'null' into 'higher null' and 'lower null' for instance, to basically sort my thoughts, refine them, make them better, etc.

Readslists are more for my benefit than they are for the benefit of others.

However, the fact that my readslists let others see into my mind, how I am sorting, see my progression, see who I am thinking belongs where in the town to scum spectrum, is certainly a bonus.

[mastina]

Bad brain day so honestly don't wanna be here but, 1: yesterday was even worse so I took it off meaning I can't take another day off, and,
2: Computer restart meant I needed to log in to my tabs that require me to be logged in so I was logged in meaning I might as well.

mastina just fabricated a whole reads list early d1 in Townstumps as town

Oi!

My readslists are

never

fabricated!

Now I will admit.

They can be

forced

.
As in, not-natural, with me trying to force reads into existence that if I were more honest wouldn't truly exist thanks to struggling to form a more solid stance on too many players. So I can take liberties and somewhat artificially exaggerate reads, and make reads that can even be "I like you so I am calling you town until I have strong reason to think otherwise". All of this, forced, when I am having trouble.

But they are never

fabrications

. I never lie in them, I never make shit up, they are always genuine and sincere. (I think that maybe in my entire history there's been like maybe a single hand's worth of readslists that were not genuine/sincere--and those readslists were, explicitly, jokes, where I was making it unambiguous that I wasn't serious, that I wasn't making a real readslist, that it was wholly and entirely a very very obvious fabrication as part of a very very obvious bit. So 99.99999% of my readslists? Not fabrications, always genuine, always sincere. But sometimes forced.)

Since when is your gut right?

1: Well for a start, quite often. It's not lock-solid 100% accurate but it's actually more accurate when I listen to it than my logic is. That said...
2: I don't recall saying my read on you is gut.

I said I wasn't seeing the town; that remains true. Nothing gut about that tho.

3.

Mastina

isn't actually coming after me wtf

Well basically you told me not to, so.

I voted mastina for townreading me, btw.

You should know better than that by now.

[mastina]

she just knows I don't like being townread early.

In a game where I'm not struggling to form reads I'd humor you by obliging and recognizing that your strong scumgame means that you're not someone who is really truly readable on D1 but gets a pass to be read over time, placing you basically as above null on principle but only just, as to admit that you're not clearly and unambiguously town.

This is not one of those games though.

In a game where I'm struggling to form reads at all, fuck it, right or wrong I'm calling you town for the sake of

having

reads.

[mastina]

Even if that's a joke it's still scummy imo.

Eh I know Almost50 well enough to know it wasn't a joke; I've a fair idea of what he was doing but elaborating beyond that would defeat the point of the move in the first place.

[mastina]

This isn't the only experience I've had with you where you had some difficulty with reads. Is there anything specific to this game that has made reads hard to garner?

If I knew the reason why I was having difficulty getting good reads, I'd be able to fix it.

Like you said, this isn't the only experience recently where it's been difficult for me. I legit don't know why. It could be real life stuff; it could be playerlist related; it could be me losing touch with the game of mafia (a lot of my time is spent these days on not-mafia stuff so the me that fronts is often the me who doesn't play mafia as much anymore); it could be the type of game being a theme game that's basically an open game (and thus not having theme mechanics/roles to spice things up); it could be the way the rvs goes; it could be multiple of the above, or it could be none of them. I genuinely don't know.

Lol Infinity r u town.

Oh wow. I legit didn't know your scumgame was this obvious, Norwee, but hot damn is it that obvious.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

I was already voting the slot but it was a soft suspicion.

This is the hardest of hard accuses.

As in, genuinely?

If NorwegianboyEE doesn't flip scum, immediately eliminate me.

I'm

that

sure that Norwee is scum here.

This is a hard 1v1

.

[mastina]

NGL i was spying on this game.

I think house would have to be pretty good at scum to be scum here, and the only reasoning I can find for scumreading him is vague gut pings.

Why is that? I haven't read much more than your posting frequency. But from my experience with House he's obvscum when town so not the easiest slot i've dealt with.

Something about these doesn't add up.

I wonder what?

(But really. Literally anyone who has played with NorwegianboyEE should instantly know that this isn't his towngame. It's immediately obvious from literally his first post and literally every post he has made since then has only solidified this. I have seen him play as town many, many, many times, and always, I was like, "Norwee looks really damn town here but I've never seen Norwee as scum before so I can't be absolutely sure that this is Norwee as town". Well, now I know what Norwee is like as scum so in hindsight literally every time I doubted Norwee as town was me being really stupid because it's just. that. obvious.)

[mastina]

Idk given my knowledge of A50's character he could just be trolling??

I wouldn't call Almost50's moves trolling, unless you gave it the prefix of 'tactical-' in front of it. He doesn't troll, but he does do things for reasons, but those things are best explained by him, not me, when he comes around to commenting again. (Granted, if he doesn't give the explanation I am more or less looking for I would think him scum; we'll have to see.)

That having been said, I believe this to be Norwee white knighting Almost50 rather than defending a scumbuddy. Why?

Honestly? Gut. Maybe it's the wishy-washy nature of Norwee's defense but that fits either way as scum whiteknighting town but not hard-committing to the defense or as scum defending a scumbuddy but not committing to the defense so my thought of Norwee-scum, A50 town has to come from somewhere else and lacking being able to tell from where, my answer is just gut.

I'm trying to be less fluffy. I'm not managing it well :3

As long as you're voting in the right place, you can fluff all you want.

[mastina]

Wtf Mastina. Where is the early full reads list?

Flea the Magician
Dunnstral
Bingle

Taly
House
cyrus62
Almost50

Dwlee99

NDMath
T3

Infinity 324

Momrangal

Hereabouts.

Literally almost immediately after the quoted post, and notably, I was struggling hardcore with a bunch of stuff including being incredibly tired at the time and depressed for the last week so I was doing my damnedest in spite of my circumstances to still try to give things.

But since you brought up a readslist, let's form another!

Flea the Magician
Taly

Dunnstral
Bingle

House
cyrus62

Almost50
Dwlee99

Infinity 324
NDMath

T3



Momrangal/NorwegianboyEE

Locktown, has good reason to be treated as locktown, townreads, I-think-they're-town-but-not-so-strongly, I-am-struggling-to-read (null/ambivalent), not-sure-but-leaning-scum, lockscum of lockscum.

[mastina]

I think taly is obvtown this game tbh
Norwee too kinda lol

Have you

played

with Norwee before???

Because, uh.

This is

not

Norwee's towngame.

It's not even remotely close.

I might not be able to identify the scum very well in general right now, but I only need to identify one in order to fuck them over and that scum is NorwegianboyEE.

[mastina]

Dwlee is kind of sort of uh obvious town?

You know, I don't actually see it...but I think Dwlee is town for perhaps a bit of a stupid reason, anyway--
While I don't see the townness in Dwlee, I think the scumteam as a collective whole, regardless of who the scumteam is, see Dwlee as obviously town...in a way that would, naturally, be impossible if Dwlee were scum. So if the entire scumteam thinks that Dwlee is obvtown...then Dwlee cannot actually be scum and is thus, town.

So while I don't see Dwlee as strongly obviously town, I think they're town anyway.

Feel free to explain to the crowd what you thought I was doing

I realize you doubt that I would know and I also realize that you have good reasons to ask me because you want to know that I am not bullshitting here and I realize that you want an answer, but I am going to decline this request because on principle, I refuse; your actions have an explanation for them which I would see as town, but I am not going to project those reasons and use them to defend you and give them to you if you are scum. I realize that, regardless of your alignment, you want me to answer first, but regardless of your alignment, I want

you

to answer first. Which creates a bit of an impasse.

As you are the slot who has gotten votes for your actions, tho, that impasse is broken by the players voting you.

I've played with scum Norwee but admittedly have no clue what I'm looking for. What is so weird about his play?

I don't know how to describe it; it's everything. It's like, so night and day different, Norwee's town to scum, that I don't know how to describe the differences. It's literally everything. How he's posting, what he's posting, the tone in his posting, the content of the posts, the approach, what he's focused on, what he's doing, literally everything is a polar opposite from town to this game. This isn't his towngame at all.

If NorwegianboyEE doesn't flip scum, immediately eliminate me.

I do hope there’s more to this than OMGUS?

Given I was voting your slot before you were in the game, *I* am not the one in the two of us who is guilty of OMGUS'ing.

I already thought Momrangal was scum and was voting there.

And then you went on to pretty definitively prove I was right on that read immediately.

If you’re so damn sure i’m scum then why is your reasoning so weak? It doesn’t add up.

Simple; that wasn't a reason for you to be scum. You being scum is a given. That post wasn't "Norwee is scum for this post"; that post was "Given that Norwee is scum, is this scum whiteknighting town or scum defending their scumbuddy?". Gut told me whiteknighting.

I’ll give you an honest look though Mastina, what other reads for scum do you have?

I don't have real scumreads so much as I have players who I think are town and a small number of players who are not included in that.

[mastina]

Seriously, I want to know ONE THING: How come almost everybody's defending me here? I obviously made a post that looked like a slip, then I disappeared. I was silent for long enough I could have been prodded if I didn't post by the time I did. I understand some of you (both the suspicious of me and the defenders of me) but I don't get the majority.

I am most disappointed in Bingle's response tbh. He didn't even take a solid stance!! Was it a slip or was it not, Bingle??

I also felt Infinity's vote was kind of scum indicative. I mean, Dwlee was already on me, and T3 is .. I dunno.. null?? Infinity felt like she

knew

I "wasn't with her in the Scum PT" so was thinking "I should vote this but I have no idea why or even why he's doing it". You know what I mean??

So, here's my request from EVRYONE:

Give a definite read on me, and try to speculate on what my "scum slip" was meant for. Thank you

Well, I know you, so, the purpose of the 'scumslip' was specifically for you to do what you just did in 477, except you were hoping to be more successful with it.

I knew what you were going for, but if I had said, "Almost50 was reaction testing to see who would think he was town and who would think he was scum", it'd have defeated the purpose of your, so to speak, reaction test, now, wouldn't it? It had to be something people didn't know about for it to work and to give you what you were aiming for.

As for what I think, I think this is you as town now because this IS the answer I was looking for, it DOES cover what I was expecting, it's not locktown beyond all doubt but does make you solidly town because I saw what you were going for, know how it could be useful, and I think it

did

generate a fair amount of useful information from the move.

Do you think your play is to the same level as townstumps?

About the same, yes. Maybe better, maybe worse. (You may note I actually basically made the town

lose

Townstumps, soooooo...it's not the highest bar to clear reads-wise. ) Time will tell, hard to say until I am dead and have access to spoilers. (Which may or may not be early, hard to say.)

Mastina do you think i "should" townread you here?

Well,

yes

, but,

Is that why you’re attacking me?

The answer to this is 'no'; you were pretty damn transparently scum from your very first post.

[mastina]

Of all the players here Infinity should be the most qualified to read me imo.

And I'm not convinced Infinity is town, sooooooooooo...

[mastina]

Urgh I really really don't want to be here right now but given that I wasn't here yesterday I'm pretty sure if I don't post tonight I'll be in prod range. So I'm really not feeling up to it but I unfortunately have no choice which means I've gotta try in spite of being unable to really be in the right mindset for mafia.

You can’t actually describe what it is that’s scummy?

When I say everything is different, I do mean literally everything. I mean night and day difference when I say it.

And think about it--how would

you

go about describing to someone who genuinely doesn't know what 'night' and 'day' are, how to describe the polar opposites? They're so natural to you, so obvious, so innate, so inherently apparent to you that you would struggle to find the words. You can see it yourself, what day is, and what night is, so how can you describe something that is second-nature to you to someone who doesn't have any idea of what night and day are?

The same way actually describing the concepts of 'night' and 'day' to someone who doesn't know what they are is something difficult to you when they are so innate, so inherent, to you, describing your towngame and scumgame's difference is something that I find difficult because it is so transparently obvious, so immediately stupidly obvious by knowing your towngame that this isn't it, that I don't know where to begin.

It's not

impossible

to describe the difference! Just like describing how night and day are opposites isn't impossible, describing how this isn't your towngame isn't impossible. But I don't know where to begin.

[mastina]

Can you talk to me about your Infinity read?

Infinity is saying things that appear town enough but I'm not convinced anything she's said or done is

actually

town. Similar to the T3 read in that regard. I see the town things there; I don't think the town things are actually alignment indicative. Not from what I've seen at least. (Admittedly that could've changed in the last couple of days and I have 9 pages to read yet. But it's not there in what I've seen.)

I’m rather interested in why mastina poked T3 over the push but never followed through.

Because while I think T3 has a decent chance of being scum, I'm not

sure

that he's scum. It's a two-way street on the read thing, yaknow; my read accuracy on T3? Not the best. T3 looks like scum and there's good reason for T3 to be scum but I have been wrong about T3 being scum before so it is possible that I am wrong again.

Norwee however? Pretty damn clearly scum, soooo.

Of all the players here Infinity should be the most qualified to read me imo.

And I'm not convinced Infinity is town, sooooooooooo...

Do you really think scum!Norwee would give scum!Infinity those props?

I honestly can't tell.

I am pretty damn sure this is Norwee as scum.
I, separately, think that T3 has a decent chance of being scum.
I, separately, think it's quite possible Infinity is scum.
Individually, I could see any number of them being scum. I don't think it's none, but it could be any combination of 1, 2, or 3, and I can see it going either way for arguments involving specific pairings with them. Hard to tell; I want more days to get it better locked down one way or another.

[mastina]

Jesus christ, i have one good read on rep in and it's now somehow suspicious?

I mean your entire iso is filled with inconsistent weird takes that are out of place from the Norwee-town that I've come to know, where your trajectory is all over the place in a weird way that doesn't fit with anything I've seen from you before.

That kind of thing happens all the time, town goes into TvT and scum chooses their side accordingly while the main pusher is the fall guy for the inevitable townflip on any side.

By the way, don't fall for this--Norwee is trying to deliberately orchestrate a situation where the town writes off the fights with him as TvT.

They're not; Norwee is scum trying to deliberately mimic the TvT dynamic.

[mastina]

GOOD! Good fellas not goof!! GODDMAN!

No, no, goof fellas is an accurate description of me; I have sole ownership of the ':P' emote for good reason.

1. Town Dunn thought "hey I should use masons!"

For the record, I not only see this, but also similarly to Dwlee, think that the scum think this, too. As in, just like I think the scum think Dwlee is obvtown (in spite of me not seeing Dwlee as obvtown) and thus Dwlee cannot be scum, I think the scum think Dunn is clearly town with a mason (just instead of me not seeing it, I also see it).

[mastina]

But seriously, where is Mastina?

You know how it seems like 80% of players hide their online activity?

How when you click on their profiles, and check for 'last visit', it's listed as " - " because they turn on the setting to hide it?

Guess what?

I don't. I never have, in fact. Across all three of my mains, it's right there, visible clear as day.

I'd probably get modkilled for taking a screenshot of it as an outside influence, but the fact of the matter is. You can in fact click on my username, mastina, and check to see these stats;
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:02 am
Last visited: Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:07 pm;
They are publicly available for all who are logged in to see. You can't view my profile while you are not logged in, but as long as you are? It's right there, plain as day, for all to see.

And speaking of that, you can click on the Search User's Posts button; clear as day? Clear as day, my last posts onsite prior to today in this game?

...Were my posts on Saturday...in this game.

I haven't been online since my last visit here and this is something y'all can very very clearly look into yourselves and easily verify because it is something I, very deliberately, choose to never hide. Every visit to this site is public. Every time I log in, I

want

people to know that I have logged in, so that they know

exactly

when I was, and

wasn't

online. Because in my eyes, hiding your online activity in games is just cowardice. If you're going to log in, you should be prepared to post. (Which, mind you. Is why I can go days without posting onsite, because there are days when I am not prepared to post in the games I am in and thus don't log in.) I realize that this isn't a universal thing, but it's my personal philosophy.

But if you're wondering where I've been outside of mafiascum? Largely, streaming Chrono Trigger, watching streams, watching professional League of Legends (I'm actually listening to the LCO right now as I am writing this, and would be devoting my full attention there if not for the need to avoid a prod in this game), and playing games of League of Legends grinding Normals in an attempt to finish the questline they launched which sadly requires a grind because you can't earn points in tft (at least not yet), can't earn points from bot games, and each game you play is 20-40 minutes average of 30 minutes and I only have until the end of the month to complete the event and I am literally only a fraction of the way through.

And also, as I have mentioned repeatedly; I'm not really in the headspace to be playing mafia. I wasn't in the headspace to play mafia on Saturday but was forced to post as to avoid the prod; I wasn't in the headspace to play mafia on Sunday but knew I posted the day before so could afford to not be on mafiascum for a day; I'm

still

not in the headspace to play mafia, but I know I'd be in prod range without posting so am once

again

forcing it.

I take days off that I can when I am not in the headspace to play. If I am in the headspace to play tomorrow, I will post tomorrow; if I am not in the headspace to play tomorrow, I will take tomorrow off because I can afford to, having posted tonight. If I am not in the headspace to post on Wednesday in spite of having not posted on Tuesday, I will once again be forced to post in spite of not being in the headspace but will by necessity force it.

This will never change. But again--you can track it. I don't hide my online activity. So if I were online? You could see it. You will know exactly when I log in and have a reasonable idea of why.

I am really struggling to get my head in this game -.-;

Big mood; you know how I've been doing.

[mastina]

So, I'm putting zero stock in her certainty of her d1 read on Norwe because she was also sure I was scum in Townstumps.

I mean, it wasn't exactly that simple.

My first read was a scumread...but I hard-pivoted early, and kept through the entirety of the midgame, a townread on you that only slipped in the lategame because of a combination of poe, needing to reevaluate my townreads, and how you were treating slots like me, jjh, and Gamma with 2/3 of them being slots that should've been off the table as conftown. (Admittedly, Gamma wasn't. That didn't make the doubt of the clear any less suspicious, even if in that instance it just so happened to be correct. In 99% of games, doubting a slot that is conftown isn't going to be you in the right, it's going to be you mudslinging a slot that has every right to be conftown. We happened to be in the 1% where the slot conftown wasn't actually conftown but the 1% does not excuse that approach in the 99 other percent.)

For the entirety of the midgame, I had you as locktown.

It was only in the lategame where the game needed

someone

to be scum and the slot most strongly trying to call the mechanically-conftown to not be conftown, seemed like it was a reasonably good bet. Admittedly, that was wrong, and admittedly, one of the mechanically-conftown was scum, but again, in 90-99% of games, mechanically-conftown players are actually mechanically conftown and the alignment who has more reason to mudsling them as not being so is scum. So it was a wrong call

that game

but in general I stand by my assessment there in general applying.

But I digress. That was that game, this is this game.

Flea the Magician
Taly

Almost50
Dwlee99
Dunnstral

cyrus62
Bingle
House

NDMath


Infinity 324


T3



Momrangal/NorwegianboyEE

Locktown, basically-locktown, pretty damn strongly townreading for various reasons but not locktown, lean-town overall (NDMath I don't know at all but just gut-vibe them as town), not-townreading, seeing-as-scum, lockscum of lockscum.

These are my reads right now for D1.

[mastina]

So full confession, still not in the mood to play, but I needed to log in for something fairly important which means that I needed to do this after that.

Mastina, what makes Flea locktown?

It's a number of things, actually.
1: General resonance of vibes. Flea is going through a lot of the same things as I am and seeing a lot of the same things I am, but critically, are not exact duplicates, given Flea has multiple reads I do not agree on. However, the overall vibe being so similar in nature to me with what faer doing and going through makes me think town.

2: Flea's approach to the game is in fact similar to Flea's approach last Draft Mafia, where fae were town. While it's not impossible to duplicate as scum, it adds to the already-present evidence that Flea is town.

3: Gut.

4: Honestly, personal bias; I like Flea as an individual and when push comes to shove, whenever I find myself lacking in reads on D1, I will just townbin the people who are brilliant rays of sunshine who I love to play with and Flea fits that criteria.

[mastina]

So full confession, still not in the mood to play, but I needed to log in for something fairly important which means that I needed to do this after that.

Mastina, what makes Flea locktown?

It's a number of things, actually.
1: General resonance of vibes. Flea is going through a lot of the same things as I am and seeing a lot of the same things I am, but critically, are not exact duplicates, given Flea has multiple reads I do not agree on. However, the overall vibe being so similar in nature to me with what faer doing and going through makes me think town.

2: Flea's approach to the game is in fact similar to Flea's approach last Draft Mafia, where fae were town. While it's not impossible to duplicate as scum, it adds to the already-present evidence that Flea is town.

3: Gut.

4: Honestly, personal bias; I like Flea as an individual and when push comes to shove, whenever I find myself lacking in reads on D1, I will just townbin the people who are brilliant rays of sunshine who I love to play with and Flea fits that criteria.

(Want this as a pagetop especially as I am typing a post which contains the followthrough townread on Tally question.)

[mastina]

Post 744 is a huge waste of text where Mastina leads us down this rabbit hole of how open and honest she is about her time, she's not in the right headspace, etc etc. Much ado about nothing.

Mastinas play pretty much fits what i expect to see from scum!her, which is short bursts of spam texts with longer breaks in-between, with the grand bonus being this incessant tunneling.

This would be a fine narrative if not for one problem:
The narrative falls apart when you realize 744 was not my only post in that day. It's true enough that scumastina will very frequently make excuses for not making content especially when she is struggling in the game. So that aspect of the narrative is accurate! But the problem is, scumastina when using that excuse? Doesn't post content at all when making it. And when she does post not-prod-dodges, they are literally this lackluster. (I eventually managed to post content...by hard-bussing my teammates.)

Oh, but, "that's just one game!". I assure you, it is not just the one game. You can even see it in posts like this, which you may think, "wait, mastina, wasn't that a cross-post across all of your games at the time?", to which I would say yes, it was, but the cross-post in other games contained modifications specific to that game to contribute content. (I'd be augmenting my point if I could track down those towngames with that same cross-post to indicate the differences between the cross-post as town and the cross-post as scum but alas, hard to do that.)

Which continued. Repeatedly.

Oh but that's just two examples.

Care for a third? Which, again, wasn't just an isolated post from that game.
Especially evident in the last two posts of mine. I posted once on a Wednesday with a "no content today" and then again on a Friday with "no content today".

Care for a fourth? Where I actually spent a second post declaring the no-content. Admittedly, that game had a notable aversion of this trend, where I needed to post despite not wanting to as scum, but that's not only one of my best recent scumgames on record but also isolated,

Because here's a fifth. Where I prod-dodged. Repeatedly.

So why is this link spam important? This is me setting up for showing what the trend NorwegianboyEE attributes to my scum meta actually is. It is me showing examples of the thing that NorwegianboyEE was talking about, specifically so that you have the context behind how 744

doesn't

fit the narrative, which brings us to the crux of the issue.

If 744 were my only post of the day, NorwegianboyEE would've had a genuine, fair point.

The problem which makes Norwee's whole argument disingenuous as fuck? 744 was not my first post that day, and I made many other posts both before the aforementioned 744, and then continued AFTER 744 with more.

I did not do nothing on Tuesday with 744 being my sole contribution. I was posting content basically the entire time.

(As for short bursts of text with long pauses between? That's just a bullshit point in general because taking a look at literally any of my completed towngames will show that I've done precisely that in all of them because I am a much healthier mafiascum player nowadays and actually take breaks from the game for a day or two when I can get away with them. Even in a Blitz game where I should be posting every 24 hours, if the mod isn't attentive enough to notice I've been gone longer than that I can get away with a full 2-day break. )

I really don't think Mastina's been as townie as y'all are letting them out to be.

And anyone who doesn't see that this is my towngame is a fucking idiot because this is painfully transparently my towngame. Just as the difference between you as town and as scum is night/day the difference between me as town and as scum is night and day--

especially

during the times I am struggling to get into the game largely due to rl stuff.

The games where I struggle to get into the game due to rl stuff might be among my weakest, worst towngames, and my weakest worst towngames are comparable to my absolute best scumgames...but they are, critically,

not

comparable to the scumgames where I struggle to get into the game due to rl stuff. Because the scumgames where I struggle to get into the game due to rl stuff are not my best scumgames; they remain my worst.

Kinda wish jjh were in the game because he'd be able to explain that concept more eloquently than I could, really. (Basically: invested in the game town-mastina >>>> struggling town-mastina

>

invested in the game scumastina >>>>>>>> struggling scumastina. The fact I am struggling to be in the game is self-evident, but the fact that I am still putting in effort in

spite

of struggling is also self-evident, and a struggling scumastina

cannot

pull off a game like this. Nor is it ethical to lie about struggling as scum and even were it I never fucking lie so I wouldn't do that on personal morals.)

Ngl, I don’t really hate this list. Or at least the middle bit of it. I don’t agree with it, but I can see where the reads originate. That doesn’t really make me less concerned that you’re scum.

I mean, sure. scumastina has readslists which look good. That's usually for a good reason though; she often has strong locktown reads on town and busses her scumbuddies. (Who'da thought? You can't make a readslist which looks good to people without it containing large swathes of truthfulness to it. If the readslist is entirely fabricated, it ends up not looking good.) To the point where this is actually a notable trend that people have picked up on!

So you should fucking sheep me on it.

Admittedly, the only parts that are going to be reliable regardless of my alignment are the very top and very bottom since the middle usually contains a mixture of alignments, but I guarantee you that even were I scum, Taly and Flea would be town and I'd be fucking bussing the shit out of NorwegianboyEE here! So you should fucking sheep me there because this is

not

the sort of read that is ever wrong.

Then after Norwee flips scum you can make your own decision on what alignment you think I am.

I will point out that you not being in thread due to the RL absence doesn’t really fix the lack of town vibes while you’re here, but this could just be a case of you being too checked out to bleed town.

I

have

bled town. This is, transparently, my towngame. I've not been my

maximum townness

self, because again, I have a lot on my plate that makes things genuine a struggle, but

given what I'm capable of

, this is as town as I can get right now.

That having been said, can answer this;

Talk to me about Taly, because I feel like he has significant scum equity if you’re town.

Taly is town here because of similar reasons to Flea;
1: Read resonance here, in a way that is not a carbon copy of my reads but looks like was developed on his own, with him having come to a similar place to me but not identical with him having done this largely on his own.
2: Taly asked me to townread him when he said I had like a 1/6 readrate on him with me always reading him as wrong so I decided "eh what the hell, it's D1, might as well townread him for it".
3: But actually I legit genuinely

did

townread him for that play. I may have exaggerated the townread generated due to #2 but it existed albeit weaker even lacking point #2.
4: And then after I did townread him, Taly didn't just accept this; he showed actual

surprise

to the townread! He was baffled that I was townreading him, in a way that strongly indicates to me that he is town, because if he were scum I don't think he'd be baffled I'd be townreading him (since to him, reading me wrong is what he'd expect, so me reading him as town when he is scum wouldn't be baffling, but me reading him as town when he is town IS).
5: Also, gut.

Also, if you have a game or two that you think shows norwee scum I’d appreciate it, because I’m pretty sure he’s told me his scum game is easy to catch before and I don’t remember ever seeing it.

I think you're misinterpreting my point here.

I've never seen NorwegianboyEE as scum before this game.

I don't have any scum meta for Norwee.

But I do have town meta with Norwee, and can tell instantly that this? Isn't that. I've played with Norwee enough times to tell that this isn't Norwee as town, even remotely. It's "off" in a fundamental way that I can't see as being anything other than being due to him being scum because it's just...not him as town, in tone, in content, in posting, in everything.

[mastina]

This seems absurd to me; the more and bigger the differences the easier they are to point at.

No?

When the differences are that big, it makes it

harder

to explain, not easier.

Besides, this is not something I would lie about.

I can say something is difficult to explain.
I can refuse to explain.
I can have situations where I have no explanation.
I can bullshit an explanation as scum.

But these are not used to cover for each other.
When something's hard to explain, it's not something I refuse to explain;
When something's hard to explain, it's not something I have no explanation for;
When something's hard to explain, it's not something I need to bullshit;
When I refuse to explain, it's not because it's difficult to explain;
When I refuse to explain, it's not because it's something I have no explanation for;
When I refuse to explain, it's not because I need to bullshit an explanation;
When I don't have an explanation, it's not something I refuse to explain;
When I don't have an explanation, it's not something that's hard to explain;
When I don't have an explanation, its not because I need to bullshit an explanation.

When I say I don't have an explanation, I mean exactly that; I don't have an explanation.
When I refuse to explain, it's just that; I have a reason not to explain and am fully capable of doing so, when I feel it is the right time to do so.
When I bullshit an explanation, obviously I didn't need to refuse or say I can't explain or say it's difficult to explain because clearly by virtue of me having bullshitted the explanation, it was none of those.

So...
...When I say something is hard to explain that means, regardless of my alignment, it is

hard to explain

.

I don't fucking lie. Never have, never will. I am perfectly capable of bullshitting explanations as scum; I don't need to pretend something is hard to explain in order to bullshit a read. So when I say I find it hard to explain, that means exactly that. Regardless of my alignment. It. isn't. easy. to. explain.

And I mean it here.

Describing the differences between Norwee as town and scum isn't easy. Them being polar opposites makes it

harder

to explain, not easier, because subtle nuanced differences are ridiculously easy to compare and contrast, but big vast gulfs of distinctions are harder to find the words to describe adequately.

Also, you still haven't explained your flea townread.

Nobody asked me until Taly did in 746. (Or if they did, I missed it, in which case I'm sorry, but at least I answered Taly when he asked me about it, in 974/975.)

[mastina]

I don’t understand how Mastina is acting so confident but can’t really explan anything of their read on me apart from how it’s just obvious.

Confidence of the read is directly correlated to the obviousness of it--if it

wasn't

so obvious, I wouldn't be so confident, now, would I?

There's a reason the moment you hopped into the game I immediately initiated a hard-1v1 with you. The confidence comes from just how obvious it is and I genuinely don't know why people who have played with Norwee when he's been town before

aren't

seeing it.

Mastina has almost exclusively focused on this one bad read and based their entire game around it. I don’t see how this comes from town, sorry.

I mean if you were my only read, that would be fair.

You are not my only read.

Flea the Magician
Taly

Almost50
Dwlee99
Dunnstral

cyrus62
Bingle
House

NDMath


Infinity 324


T3



Momrangal/NorwegianboyEE

Locktown, basically-locktown, pretty damn strongly townreading for various reasons but not locktown, lean-town overall (NDMath I don't know at all but just gut-vibe them as town), not-townreading, seeing-as-scum, lockscum of lockscum.

These are my reads right now for D1.

This was my last readslist.

I just explained the townreads I have on Taly and Flea, so I don't feel the need to reiterate my reasons there.

Beyond that:
I very strongly believe that this is Almost50's towngame. His moves make sense for his stated stance, his claimed pack and his actions for it all make sense for him as town, and his reads have been pretty damn town. The one and only possible concern I'd have with him is, in fact, that his reads are as good as they are, but the fact that he's overall had some strong stances and backed by reasonable logic means that I just think this is him as town.

Dwlee I have already explained, but this is not a read tied to Norwee; this is a read tied to the collective town as a whole, as a body. Everyone says Dwlee is obvtown here. Everyone says Dwlee is very strongly, obviously town. I don't see it, but I don't think that everyone saying Dwlee is town here is town. I think that among those calling Dwlee obvtown there must be scum, but that the scum believing Dwlee to be obvtown means that Dwlee isn't scum with them. Plus, what's more likely? Everyone is wrong on Dwlee, or everyone is right on Dwlee? Dwlee's a consensus townread and while I don't exactly agree with the consensus, Dwlee's content I can at least see as being town on its own merits, albeit not to the obvtown levels they say.

Dunnstral is mostly here due to the mason pack claim. And that's about it, honestly.

cyrus looks to be town, solving in his own way, but he's not as strongly town to me mostly because I'm somewhat weirded out that nobody is pushing him as the low-hanging fruit he normally is. cyrus has been a consistent mislim in my games with him, with most of the collective playerlist suspicious of him...and that suspicion is, by and large, absent from this game. There is a decent amount of fluff in his posts I'm not used to, too, but overall, the thoughts he has presented DO look genuine and the people townreading him I am contributing to them, like me, being experienced with cyrus and not auto-scumreading him. So I'm not concerned, meaning he's still one of my strongest townreads, but not in the same tier as the basically-locktown.

Bingle's content looks sincere and genuinely solving in a way that's difficult to explain so I'll just shorthand it as 'gut'. He's good reason to not be scum imo, it just doesn't 'fit' with him being scum here. The way he's going about things may be highly neutral but the neutrality is not total, and the ways he's not neutral are in ways that are more likely to be town.

House is doing House things. I realize he has a strong scumgame, but I believe his content here to be him as town because the pushes he makes are things that I can see the reasons/intent behind as town but are harder for me to see as scum. It's not absolute though because as House himself said, I can't exactly soulread him anymore and it's not something I'm really confident in, especially having not seen his scumgame in recent times. (It's possible, for instance, for him to, as scum, deliberately make his play as close to our last game together as possible. That's something he could do as scum, and I lack a gauge off of limited re-experience with House to tell if he actually would and how successful he'd be if so. So lacking the gauge of his scumgame, I have some healthy respect in not hard-townbinning him, but he does look town.)

NDMath does look vaguely town in content but nothing in the content looks like it couldn't be made by scum. The nature of the content and overall direction and push look to be town to me overall, but this is not something outside the range of scum. Which means overall, a weak townread.

Infinity I don't see as town here at all in any of her content. I don't exactly see her as scum, either, but it's definitely at least possible with her positioning for her to be scum.

T3's posts actually do look like they come from scum, and I don't see the town in them at all.

So.
Which of these reads have

anything

to do with you, Norwee?

...None of them? My explanation of these reads has absolutely no mentions of you?

That's because the narrative you're weaving is an outright fabrication.

[mastina]

All these wagons are meh to bad

Regardless of the alignment of the wagoned individuals, this post in response to the wagons was bad.

[mastina]

Mastina can you give a summary of how you feel norwee tends to play as town and how he's playing here?

For me, it's basically: he tends to act as a spectator and gives his thoughts as the game goes along, showing his solving process along the way. He doesn't say everything that he's thinking but you get the impression he's thinking behind the scenes.

I mean, yes--that's exactly the sort of description of his towngame that I would give.

But this?

This isn't that at all. He's

not

acting as a spectator giving thoughts as the game goes along, his 'solving process' is not being shown in the way it shines through as town (there's not nearly the same level of trajectory involved), he's saying basically everything upfront with almost nothing being behind the scenes. Beyond his paltry attempts at mimicking this very very poorly/badly in his entrance which immediately screamed "fake".

You literally described his towngame, but attribute it to this game when it is entirely absent.

[mastina]

All these wagons are meh to bad

Regardless of the alignment of the wagoned individuals, this post in response to the wagons was bad.

Is there another way of approaching this you think would be more productive?

Being a town mediator rather than a scum one.

Talking to each member of the wagons you dislike, talking to each of them about why you don't like the wagon they're on, asking for discussion, engaging them, talking to them about their points and positions and proposing to them something which works with their established positions/logic but is compatible with your own stances, and creating cases against the players you want to vote rather than a naked vanity vote on a slot most people are townreading that will do nothing to get anyone to swap wagons.

Hopping onto a player townread nakedly with nothing other than "the wagons we have suck" will do nothing to dismantle those wagons.

[mastina]

*hopping onto a player widely townread with a naked vote backed by nothing other than "the wagons we have suck"
(edit by way of post for clarity)

[mastina]

I'm sure Mastina gave at least a reason in those walls but too bad I cannot read

And that T3 is Mr flip flop to the extreme.
How many times are you going to change your vote in response to what’s fucking convenient? So Mastina puts traction on me and then you vote me, people vote Mastina and then you suddenly decide to vote Mastina and re-evaluate me. Which ok, kinda sus but ok. But now again you suddenly acts like you scumread me all along. Nah fuck this fam.
VOTE: T3

For the record regardless of T3's alignment this reads as incredibly insincere from Norwee.

What’s the chances your claims at "difference" is just me trying to play the game differently and coming in with a rough start because people thought my entrance was scummy?

Very low imo.

I feel you should be able to go down the list you gave "in tone, in content, in posting, in everything." and say "norwee's tone is much more {describing words} this game than as town", "norwee's content is focused on w and x instead of y and z", etc.

I might be able to do this when I'm not posting explicitly due to having gotten a prod and being unable to wait until tomorrow to post in order to avoid replacement. (Which is to say, I am very very tired already, it's literally 1:30 am and I feel like it's 4:30 am, and I already don't feel like logging in today, I just have no choice if I don't want to be replaced. So doing this, can't do tonight but doing this, might be possible in the near future, just not tonight.)

[mastina]

Mastina had an game previous where they scumread town!me.
Was it Mbos?

Edit: Yep it was Mbos.
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=84589&hilit=+Mastina

You and I apparently have very different definitions of scumreads, mate.

In that game, you were in my POE but I never voted you on D1 at all, and never intended to, and you were near the top of the POE the entire time, and overnight in our PT I reiso'd you and concluded you were town. (It was a moot point as you became conftown on D2 anyway but the fact is I did place you as town during N1, before D2.)

[mastina]

Pool of Suspects:

Dunn Dwlee

I mean Dunnstral and Dwlee are the slots doing the least right now so by that metric they would be sus, but I'm not sure that's the metric to use on D1 especially in this gamestate.

[mastina]

(I don't have anything to respond to so this might be a day I can do the thing I said last night, but if so it'll not be right now but a bit later tonight.)

[mastina]

VOTE: fleh the magician
die nullscum fluffer die

scumclaim.

Agreed.

The Flea wagon is complete and utter shit through and through--it can't be all scum but it's all shit and likely filled with scum.

VOTE: T3.

[mastina]

[5] Flea The Magician: House, Titus,

T3, Infinity 324, NorwegianboyEE

Gee I wonder why I hate the Flea wagon.

Couldn't possibly be because the 3 slots I hardest scumread are on it.

[mastina]

Flea The Magician: Titus, T3, Infinity 324, NorwegianboyEE, NDMath, Dunnstral, Bingle

On principle, I refuse to vote anyone outside of the above because when you fucking eliminate my strongest townread on D1 (who then flips town) you live with the damn consequences of that--a refusal of me to vote outside of that wagon.

Which means in spite of Infinity's guilty on House, no, I'm not making an exception to this rule. House was outside of this, not voting House as a consequence.

I'm not going to vote Infinity; I've the least grudge against Bingle so not there, either; Titus is Taly so not voting there, so:
Not gonna vote outside of {T3, NorwegianboyEE, NDMath, Dunnstral}.

Just on principle.

VOTE: T3.

[mastina]

I think Bingle > Titus > NDMath is my believing order for this whole commuting thing.

Honestly, same.

Why say that he has a commute in his pack
When he doesn't

A bit of a useless question since

someone

did this if there is in fact a maximum of 3 commutes possible--with 4 claimed, that means someone did. The question of "why say they have a commute when they don't" can be asked of all 3 claims, and the answer is baffling regardless of which is the liar, but if our collective understanding of the mechanics is correct, there is in fact a liar.

[mastina]

@Mastina Do you have any protest to taking the Vanilla role from your pack tonight? {Vanilla, Neighbor, 1-Shot Strongman, 1-Shot Strongman}

As a matter of fact, I will not be taking the Vanilla as I already took a killing role to deny it from scum (I initially was planning to take one of the other abilities but when I noticed the killing role I had to opt for it for the denial to scum, regrettably), so taking one of the strongmans actually makes more sense.

Obviously, I've no intention to claim more than that, today is never an eliminate-mastina day and highly likely neither is tomorrow so the soonest I'll need to justify myself is on D4 and by then I'm probably dead via scum nightkill or am in a much better place.

[mastina]

My n1 action was a Psychologist check of T3. He's inno.

Not necessarily; if T3 was the scum killing last night, then that would be the same as if T3 were town.

Also relies on you being town, which is definitely possible but is yet to be proven.

I've no real interest in sorting you/Infinity though because I fully expect it to be sorted by the end of the day, no need to consider it further--whichever flips town we take into consideration their reads and if we flip town first, we then flip scum the day after.

[mastina]

[House, Infinity]
[Bingle, Titus, NDMath]
[Dunnstral, Almost50, Dwlee99, mastina, T3, NorwegianboyEE]
1'm thinking 1 scum in each grouping

I mean, pretty explicitly so, yes.

[mastina]

even-night neighborizer!

Oh I guess that'd be the explanation for why I'm in a neighborhood with no posts in it in spite of me not taking or using the neighbor card in my N2 pack (as I did in fact take one of the strongmen). At least I'd assume so.

That said, that's a pretty weird kill for scum to make but with a lack of a vigilante which can kill N2, it was in fact definitively a scum kill which seems very very weird. I, for one, was perfectly willing to vote for T3; why the fuck did the scum choose to kill someone who was, for all intents and purposes, a perfectly viable elimination? Definitely will need to look into that.

I have indeed commuted.

VOTE: ND Math > Bingle here imo.

Granted, it's not impossible for it to be Titus + Norwee, but we can cross that bridge if we come to it.

[mastina]

Infinity is conf!town right?

Technically, no, Infinity could very well have been bussing.

Pragmatically speaking, lacking any definitive evidence suggesting a bus, balance of probability suggests that in a vacuum, all things equal, Infinity is in fact town.

So, technically, no, not conftown; pragmatically speaking, effectively, yes.

@

Mastina

: I investigated you. Claim.

With respect; I already have.

I said I took a killing role N1--there are precisely two such roles in the pack list that are killing roles (Vengeful, N4 Vigilante), and I have explicitly said I have one of them. It is obviously not beneficial to state which one. They both return the same result to all investigative roles that check for killing (gunsmith, psychologist); I am capable of killing because I explicitly took a killing role N1, one of the only two in the game. And furthermore, regardless of which of those two I took, neither could action last night. I explicitly have no night action currently. (Well, technically, activating a strongman is a night action of sorts, but not one which shows to any action investigation role like a tracker, watcher, follower, voyeur, etc.)

I said I took one of the strongmen from A50's D1 pack that was passed to me N2.

In a separate PM sent technically before the daystart PM but concurrent to it (the two were sent at the same time, just this one was sent technically before the daystart PM), I was given a link to a neighborhood. This was not from my ability as I did not use the neighbor ability from A50's pack given I took the strongman. Until my post in there just before posting in here, nobody had posted in there; the only post within was the mod's OP specifying that chat can occur at any time. I am

assuming

(admittedly it is an assumption) that, given the lack of posts in there, this was due to me being T3's even-night neighborize target.

So my role is, explicitly (unspecified killing role between N4 Vigilante/Vengeful) + Strongman, who took no action on either N1 or N2, but was neighborized by someone N2 with the neighborhood opening at the start of D3 and being empty until I posted in it (with the assumption the cause is T3's even-night neighborizer).

If you wasted your investigation by not fucking reading the post where I explicitly claimed these things, that's not my fault; that's yours for not fucking reading my post where I explicitly claimed this.

[mastina]

It's also worth noting that all four strongman cards have been claimed. Mastina took one night1. A50 started with two, didn't take either. Dwlee started with one, unknown if he took it.

Not so. I took a killing role, not a killing modifier. There's precisely two killing roles in the roles list. I then took one of the two Almost50 started with.

Oh also as of this,

I used a commute N1. I lied about sending Dwlee a commute for the dual reasons of preventing scum from fucking with the investigation I'd sent Dwlee, knowing that compared to everything else in the pack it was obvious. I did take the commute Math sent me but did not use it, because who the fuck would have shot me last night.

With no actual 1v1v1 in Titus-Bingle-NDMath, I prefer to do this:

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

There could still be scum in any of Titus/Bingle/NDMath in any amount but I still prefer to, lacking having done the necessary reassessment I need to do, vote for a scumread.

[mastina]

...Does "neighborizor" really create a neighborhood with only the target, and not the person who used the role?

No it'd be for both, but T3 is dead on daystart, the neighborhood was made at daystart, so if there's nobody talking in the neighborhood......

(The pm was sent as a ?BCC? [the one that doesn't show who it was sent to] so it doesn't reveal who it was sent to in the PM, and the PM is just stating I've got access to the thread, and the neighborhood's OP is just stating it's open at all times, so there's literally no information about who neighborized me. However, it is a fairly reasonable

assumption

that, because nobody but me has talked in there, and T3 died with an even-night neighborizer with last night being N2, that the reason nobody but me has talked there is because T3 was the one who neighborized me.)

[mastina]

Could an mafia member use a vigilante shot too?

Pretty sure they could, yes, and even if by default they couldn't, there's workarounds, beit,
1: multiple scum alive and one using the factional kill while the other vigs, and,
2: the multitasking modifier which by the time of N4 scum could have the time to have picked up.

So scum should never be allowed to get a killing role here, just to be safe.

[mastina]

As a matter of fact, I will not be taking the Vanilla as I already took a killing role to deny it from scum (I initially was planning to take one of the other abilities but when I noticed the killing role I had to opt for it for the denial to scum, regrettably), so taking one of the strongmans actually makes more sense.

This sentence is damned close to a scumclaim from mastina.

Well it's really really not. I've in the past not liked to be an ungated vig and when I have a vengeful it's usually a wasted role on me because for all of my faults I am pretty damn obvtown when town so am pretty damn hard to mislim meaning I'm pretty damn likely to not get mileage out of the roles.

However, there IS use for both the vengeful this game AND I am not against using a vig that is heavily gated and have in fact done so as town before. (Not often but it happens.) Plus, this was nearly identical to what I did in the first version of the game--I took the D2 supersaint, both to deny it from scum and because it wasn't useless as for whatever reason, there was a fair amount of suspicion on me on D1 there. It was fully possible that I was going to eat the D2 elimination there and I knew it so taking the role wasn't just to deny it to scum, it was also because I knew it was possible I may have a need for it.

Initially, on D1, I submitted (yes I submitted during the day, the mod said "I'll accept this if you don't change it N1 for your N1 action" because I thought you needed to submit during the day and the mod was kind enough to accept my initial day submission as an initial submission for N1) a different choice because I didn't notice the killing role in my pack. (My initial choice was one of the two investigative roles in my pack.) However, thanks to the way D1 played out, I decided to switch to the other choice in my pack N1...and when I was on my way to change over to that other investigative role in my N1 pack, I noticed the killing role that I had missed. (My initial pack had 2 investigatives and 2 similar powers but I didn't initially notice the fifth which was the killing role, and when I went to change my D1-accepted-as-initial-N1 choice, I noticed the killing role so I was forced to swap.)

And just like before, while it is

mainly

to deny it from scum, it has tangible benefits to it which make it useable by me anyway.

Taking the strongman furthers this--if I have the Vengeful, obviously I can't use the strongman, but taking it means that the scum don't automatically know if I have the Vengeful or the N4 vig. If I have the N4 vig, there is a tangible benefit to taking the strongman because I think that even a town vig can activate the strongman. (Obviously should be doublechecked with the mod though.) Because scum can pick up defensive roles in an attempt to survive the N4 vig, a strongman on the N4 vig speaks for itself in its use, and again, by taking one of the two strongmen, I deny it from scum.

I have incentive to hide

which

killing role I have, because telling the scum what I have does no good to the town and lots of good for the scum; it is better to keep them guessing. But I've no incentive to hide having picked up *a* killing role, and pairing it with a strongman pickup, because it is important to let the town know that much and the knowledge that I have one makes the scum sweat more. The only way scum would know which one I have is if they have the other, so failing them having the other, they basically have to treat me as if I have both--
In other words, they need to treat me as someone who, if they mislim, I am going to get a free shot, making them need to be more careful around me and try to get my favor and/or avoid wagoning me...while, simultaneously, needing to kill me before N4, meaning that scum have a huge incentive to kill me N3 or risk facing the consequences N4 because strongman vig is a free shot.

Basically, the scum know that I have a free shot, but unless they have the other killing role, they don't know if my free shot is day-based or night-based and must treat it as if it is both. They cannot safely wagon me, nor can they safely let me live to see N4, unless they explicitly know which I have in which case they know which of these applies. Which will still mean they need to play around the one I have anyway.

In contrast, all the town needs to know is that I

have

the killing role. Regardless of vig or vengeful, it shows identically to psychologist and gunsmith alike of me being able to kill, which makes me a miller to those roles. So the moment I picked the killing role up, I needed to let the town know I had it specifically to let them know not to waste those investigatives on me. I couldn't do this on D1 because I didn't notice that I

had

the killing power on D1 in my packs, it was a shift in plans caused by D1's end being what it was and me going to recheck my packs intent on changing the action and discovering I had the killing role then.

In hindsight, I probably should've mentioned it in my daystart PM but,
1: I was fucking

furious

about the Flea elimination D1. I was initially going to enter D2 cussing out and my daystart post that you saw was originally much much MUCH harsher and much much MUCH more abrasive because I was NOT in a good mood that you fucking eliminated my strongest fucking townread on D1, and,
2: I was late into the daystart and thus had a lot to catch up on including seeing the guilty, meaning that by the time I commented, I had other things on my mind, plus,
3: I was multitasking at the time so it slipped my mind at the time.

So in hindsight I admit I should've done it a bit earlier, but the timing between my first post of the day phase and me claiming the killing action was only 5 hours apart. I left, did other stuff, and came back, and then the new content prompted me to remember to claim the killing action because I had forgotten to do so earlier.

It was still less than 24 hours after my first post on the dayphase in question though so I most definitely wasn't pulling this out of my ass.

Also I don't fucking lie as scum which you bloody well know so you bloody well know that everything I say above played out

exactly

the way I said it did regardless of my alignment, soooooo.

Suffice to say; not a scumclaim.

[mastina]

mastina - Didn't feel like she was really trying to parse me/math/Titus, and also literally that one post I quoted.

If it makes a difference to you: 1768 initially contained a vote on you explaining various reasons including "if he's town we've got two scum confirmed, if he's scum then there's one scum left", but I deleted the entirety of it--because the very same page I was typing that vote on had you explain you were fakeclaiming having two commutes.

So the lack of sorting can be attributed to you literally posting that one post too soon as you pagebottomed it.

I was literally seconds from posting it but then I saw your post so I removed it all.

[mastina]

I'm definitely more interested in what mastina has to say for herself at the moment though.

Reiterating, toxic as it may be but it's really fucking true;
You've nobody to blame but yourselves?

Because you really have nobody to blame but yourselves.

[mastina]

Suffice to say there is a single world in which that is a town mastina post and it is far outnumbered by the worlds in which it is a scum mastina post.

As the expert in scumastina I'm pretty damn sure there's zero worlds where it's ever a scumastina post; I don't post anything even remotely close than that as scum, ever. The only world I could see it as a scumastina post is specifically in an attempt to mimic my towngame, but that means that frankly, you're wrong.

The number of worlds where it is a town mastina post far far far outnumber the number of worlds where it's scumastina because scumastina never makes that post without it being an attempt tp mimic the worlds where town mastina would and thus you've got an absolute minimum of 75-80% town to an absolute maximum of 20-25% scum but realistically more like 90-99% town to 1-10% scum.

[mastina]

Mastina why did you townread Flea in the first place?

Mastina, what makes Flea locktown?

It's a number of things, actually.
1: General resonance of vibes. Flea is going through a lot of the same things as I am and seeing a lot of the same things I am, but critically, are not exact duplicates, given Flea has multiple reads I do not agree on. However, the overall vibe being so similar in nature to me with what faer doing and going through makes me think town.

2: Flea's approach to the game is in fact similar to Flea's approach last Draft Mafia, where fae were town. While it's not impossible to duplicate as scum, it adds to the already-present evidence that Flea is town.

3: Gut.

4: Honestly, personal bias; I like Flea as an individual and when push comes to shove, whenever I find myself lacking in reads on D1, I will just townbin the people who are brilliant rays of sunshine who I love to play with and Flea fits that criteria.

Also while we're on the subject of iso'ing my reasons for reads on players:

I just explained the townreads I have on Taly and Flea, so I don't feel the need to reiterate my reasons there.

Beyond that:
I very strongly believe that this is Almost50's towngame. His moves make sense for his stated stance, his claimed pack and his actions for it all make sense for him as town, and his reads have been pretty damn town. The one and only possible concern I'd have with him is, in fact, that his reads are as good as they are, but the fact that he's overall had some strong stances and backed by reasonable logic means that I just think this is him as town.

These reads still hold for me, of Titus as town and Almost50 as town, to levels that are near absolute.

Add in trust to Infinity, and that leaves an initial sort pile of:
{Bingle, NDMath, Dwlee99, Dunnstral, NorwegianboyEE}.

On principle, I refuse to vote outside of the Flea wagon D1, and Dwlee was off the wagon, so that leaves the first revised sort pile as:
{Bingle, NDMath, Dunnstral, NorwegianboyEE} containing 1-2 scum.

Bingle and NDMath both have soft, but not hard, reasons to be town imo, though of them I would think Bingle's got more reason to be town overall. Both also give off minor town vibes.

Dunnstral does not as literally the only thing which was clearing him was his mason claim but playwise Dunnstral's iso this game is fucking abysmal. So push come to shove, if I were to vote anyone other than Norwee it'd be Dunn here, honestly.

But really, I still think Norwee is just scum here, both by being one of the least town by play, least town by claim, and also for just being scum.

[mastina]

I am not against using a vig that is heavily gated and have in fact done so as town before.

Lynx? I was of the impression that your town approach to cigs was still “Town should never use vigs.”

As a matter of fact, no, that stance is way way way outdated.

An ungated vig I think shouldn't shoot in a closed theme game and should only shoot once in any semi-open game (including any Normal)--if the single shot to prove themselves as being a vig (and thus, prove themselves as town by virtue of the setup being semi-open) brings the game onto evens, there may, may,

may

be a case for a second shot to bring the game back to odds, but otherwise, once to prove their power is all they should do.

A gated vig that is gated to be on a single night or a single shot though? Should always shoot to prove the role, regardless of game type, because if you don't use it yet you lose it anyway, by the "use it or lose it" mentality, it is always better to use the power than to not use it.

So a N4 vig which you can pressure scum with the threat of using it? Absolutely. It's not a threat to scum if you refuse to use it even if you have it, so by necessity of picking up a killing role, I

must

be prepared to use it. Both to prove I have the killing role, and to threaten the scum that I could shoot them. Or, assuming the game wouldn't end with a misshot, at the very least remove a mislim. They can only guess as to how I use my role; only *I* know how I WILL use my role. So them not being able to assume makes me dangerous to them.

As for past links, I've done it multiple times before as town but the one which comes to mind immediately is my shot on Kokichi Oma this game. And I didn't even need that shot to be conftown; I was literally a

mason

, and as a MASON who was conftown already, I took a vig shot because if I didn't use the vig shot N1 I would lose it because it was for N1 specifically.

[mastina]

The thing that concerns me about your claim is not that you took the role, but that you sound like you intend to use it. (As a vig, specifically).

Absolutely. If I wasn't prepared to use the killing role, it wouldn't force the scum to play around it, now, would it?

And again, the only way scum know which killing role I take is if they either had the other or if they rolecop me--I would presume that anyone with a rolecop in their pack that didn't take it would track those that could take it and thus we would have the appropriate level of tracking and thus have the appropriate level of knowledge in regards to the latter case.

Also i wish Mastina would have actually been angry instead of saying they felt angry, about Flea elimination. Because then it would seem a bit more genuine.

I can't be angry at a flip that hasn't happened yet. Flea was being wagoned but Flea was, explicitly, not dead at the time nor were fae the only viable endgame wagon given a deadline rush. Especially given that while I thought fae were town, my reads are not foolproof. It wouldn't do to get angry at a townread of mine being eliminated if the townread ended up flipping scum, now, would it?

I

can

be furious at a Flea flip once there

has

been a Flea flip and they flip exactly what I thought fae would.

I feel like Mastina keeps harping on the same pounts about me but they never actually progress their read in response to things i’ve done or flips that are happening.

There's nothing TO progress in the read. Your alignment doesn't change so the points I make don't become suddenly obsolete. What new information makes you less likely to be scum? Claiming the pack you got truthfully? The various claims today of which none are about you but which most sound true and thus narrow the poe down to include you? (That

strengthens

the scumread, it doesn't weaken it.) House flipping scum when nothing in your posts or his make you not be partners? And in fact you have decent partner equity with him? From your stances on him? Even taking time to process the guilty on him as being such?
Plus, House has decent partner equity with you, too, with this defense of you. He did vote Norwee here, but quoteth House himself,

Hopping on but back off before elimination is a pretty basic distancing tactic.

Guess what House did?

VOTE: T3

This looks an awful lot like hopping onto the Norwee wagon but backing off before a Norwee elimination, the very scum tactic House described.

If anything, the new evidence just keeps piling up and being

more

damning towards you being scum, Norwee. Not less.

[mastina]

playwise Dunnstral's iso this game is fucking abysmal

Is there something to this besides "he's not posting"?

Dunnstral not posting would be reason enough, but beyond that:

This is his first game-content post in the game. (And he furthered it here.) It took him ten posts to post anything that is tangibly a read of any sort, and it is purely taking Norwee's side of the 1v1 I initiated between us.

Even if Norwee isn't scum I'd call that fairly damning but if Norwee IS scum you can't get much stronger than that for a third-buddy indicator.

He does townread you, but he doesn't say why.

Perhaps we should stop talking about roles and just focus on individual reads

This is also borderline outright hypocritical, because as I've shown above, he's only shown a grand total of

two

reads and described neither. He didn't even give a read on me, he just said that he preferred voting me over Norwee. He said Norwee town, Infinity town, but that's it. For someone saying we should focus on individual reads, he sure was lacking in that department at the time!

He gave more Norwee defense here.

Here he says he explicitly doesn't have scumreads but it would appear he doesn't have much in the way of reads at all, as he

still

has only said he has two reads (Norwee town, Infinity town) and described neither of them.

He adds a third read here, of Titus town, but continues to remain reasonless on all his reads.

And then hopped in to vote for Flea, never bothering to develop reads on more players.

The Dunnstral-as-town that I know would develop reads and then push them, even in the last minutes of a day. For proof of seeing this in action, read his posts here in Warehouse 13 around deadline. He was around, and incredibly active. In the final 24 hours of the deadline, he made

ten

posts, all giving reads, reasons, opinions, and trying to influence the gamestate. You can see how he was considering the deadline options in posts like this, and others similarly so.

This game had

one

, a pop-in that had none of that life, none of that fire, none of that assessment, none of that evaluation, none of that consideration, nothing.

He correctly breaks down scum distribution given the information available at the time (even if today we know it wrong), but notice what he doesn't give?

He doesn't give opinions on which of the three in the one bracket are town/scum or on which of the leftovers in the leftovers are town/scum. For that matter, he didn't even do that for House/Infinity (but unlike the other two, that's at least more forgivable as it was a foregone conclusion that House was going to die).

Literally the towniest things about Dunnstral this game are him claiming the mason (and having taken it apparently), and his claim of taking the N2 jailkeeper and using it on Bingle--neither of these are actually things that make Dunn be town.

The entire rest of his lackluster iso just shows disinterested scum. 1783 is the first time he's given reads since D1's Infinity/Norwee town and even then it's on a fraction of the playerlist and remains reasonless.

[mastina]

Am I underestimating the downside of not getting a claim out of someone, or what?

The number of times I've seen players vigged that people assume were scum kills is astronomically high.

Do you know why those players were assumed to be scum kills until much much later in the game in spite of them being vig kills?

Because vigs make far, far, far more bad shots than they do good ones. It's not just shooting someone claimless; it's also the fact that vigs think they have better reads than they actually do. If you're shooting a consensus scumread that has already claimed, it's an entirely different ballpark than shooting someone who isn't a consensus scumread that hasn't claimed. But most vigs do the latter rather than the former.

[mastina]

Is this a meta read to you?

It both IS, and isn't, a meta read.

In-General-Meta: Dunnstral

can

be active as scum, and

can

be inactive as scum, but usually, he is

more active

as town, and

less

active as scum. Posting often is :effort: from scum-Dunnstral which he CAN do but not often. Posting often is natural to Dunnstral, but not guaranteed because, yes, he can have games where he's less active for numerous various reasons. (Not invested in the game, struggling, rl stuff, etc.)

That's the in-general meta part.

There is also a Very Specific Meta: the contrast between how Dunnstral acted end of D1 here, vs. the way Dunnstral acted end of D1 in Warehouse 13 among others. I believe that even in a game where Dunnstral as town is being less active, his end-of-day powerspike is notable as town. I can also point towards other games, such as Mystery Box of Sylver I, where he had a notable activity spike at the end of the day giving both content and posts near deadline in spite of an otherwise lackluster performance. Which is to say:

even when Dunnstral is having an inactive towngame,

he usually spikes during end-of-D1s

.
In this game instead of a spike we got one, incredibly lackluster, post.

But then there's the non-meta, shown in 1865 in that Dunnstral's content this game is dismal and highly partner-indicative for Norwee but even if Norwee isn't scum is still fairly damning for a player. It's not related to Dunnstral's meta; any player with an iso as bad as his is, would be vote-worthy.

[mastina]

I'm not reading all this.

You don't need to read all of it but you

should

read this much;

While we're on the subject of iso'ing my reasons for reads on players:

I just explained the townreads I have on Taly and Flea, so I don't feel the need to reiterate my reasons there.

Beyond that:
I very strongly believe that this is Almost50's towngame. His moves make sense for his stated stance, his claimed pack and his actions for it all make sense for him as town, and his reads have been pretty damn town. The one and only possible concern I'd have with him is, in fact, that his reads are as good as they are, but the fact that he's overall had some strong stances and backed by reasonable logic means that I just think this is him as town.

These reads still hold for me, of Titus as town and Almost50 as town, to levels that are near absolute.

Add in trust to Infinity, and that leaves an initial sort pile of:
{Bingle, NDMath, Dwlee99, Dunnstral, NorwegianboyEE}.

Dunnstral does not as literally the only thing which was clearing him was his mason claim but playwise Dunnstral's iso this game is fucking abysmal. So push come to shove, if I were to vote anyone other than Norwee it'd be Dunn here, honestly.

But really, I still think Norwee is just scum here, both by being one of the least town by play, least town by claim, and also for just being scum.

I feel like Mastina keeps harping on the same pounts about me but they never actually progress their read in response to things i’ve done or flips that are happening.

There's nothing TO progress in the read. Your alignment doesn't change so the points I make don't become suddenly obsolete. What new information makes you less likely to be scum? Claiming the pack you got truthfully? The various claims today of which none are about you but which most sound true and thus narrow the poe down to include you? (That

strengthens

the scumread, it doesn't weaken it.) House flipping scum when nothing in your posts or his make you not be partners? And in fact you have decent partner equity with him? From your stances on him? Even taking time to process the guilty on him as being such?
Plus, House has decent partner equity with you, too, with this defense of you. He did vote Norwee here, but quoteth House himself,

Hopping on but back off before elimination is a pretty basic distancing tactic.

Guess what House did?

VOTE: T3

This looks an awful lot like hopping onto the Norwee wagon but backing off before a Norwee elimination, the very scum tactic House described.

If anything, the new evidence just keeps piling up and being

more

damning towards you being scum, Norwee. Not less.

playwise Dunnstral's iso this game is fucking abysmal

Is there something to this besides "he's not posting"?

Dunnstral not posting would be reason enough, but beyond that:

This is his first game-content post in the game. (And he furthered it here.) It took him ten posts to post anything that is tangibly a read of any sort, and it is purely taking Norwee's side of the 1v1 I initiated between us.

Even if Norwee isn't scum I'd call that fairly damning but if Norwee IS scum you can't get much stronger than that for a third-buddy indicator.

He does townread you, but he doesn't say why.

Perhaps we should stop talking about roles and just focus on individual reads

This is also borderline outright hypocritical, because as I've shown above, he's only shown a grand total of

two

reads and described neither. He didn't even give a read on me, he just said that he preferred voting me over Norwee. He said Norwee town, Infinity town, but that's it. For someone saying we should focus on individual reads, he sure was lacking in that department at the time!

He gave more Norwee defense here.

Here he says he explicitly doesn't have scumreads but it would appear he doesn't have much in the way of reads at all, as he

still

has only said he has two reads (Norwee town, Infinity town) and described neither of them.

He adds a third read here, of Titus town, but continues to remain reasonless on all his reads.

And then hopped in to vote for Flea, never bothering to develop reads on more players.

The Dunnstral-as-town that I know would develop reads and then push them, even in the last minutes of a day. For proof of seeing this in action, read his posts here in Warehouse 13 around deadline. He was around, and incredibly active. In the final 24 hours of the deadline, he made

ten

posts, all giving reads, reasons, opinions, and trying to influence the gamestate. You can see how he was considering the deadline options in posts like this, and others similarly so.

This game had

one

, a pop-in that had none of that life, none of that fire, none of that assessment, none of that evaluation, none of that consideration, nothing.

He correctly breaks down scum distribution given the information available at the time (even if today we know it wrong), but notice what he doesn't give?

He doesn't give opinions on which of the three in the one bracket are town/scum or on which of the leftovers in the leftovers are town/scum. For that matter, he didn't even do that for House/Infinity (but unlike the other two, that's at least more forgivable as it was a foregone conclusion that House was going to die).

Literally the towniest things about Dunnstral this game are him claiming the mason (and having taken it apparently), and his claim of taking the N2 jailkeeper and using it on Bingle--neither of these are actually things that make Dunn be town.

The entire rest of his lackluster iso just shows disinterested scum. 1783 is the first time he's given reads since D1's Infinity/Norwee town and even then it's on a fraction of the playerlist and remains reasonless.

Is this a meta read to you?

It both IS, and isn't, a meta read.

In-General-Meta: Dunnstral

can

be active as scum, and

can

be inactive as scum, but usually, he is

more active

as town, and

less

active as scum. Posting often is :effort: from scum-Dunnstral which he CAN do but not often. Posting often is natural to Dunnstral, but not guaranteed because, yes, he can have games where he's less active for numerous various reasons. (Not invested in the game, struggling, rl stuff, etc.)

That's the in-general meta part.

There is also a Very Specific Meta: the contrast between how Dunnstral acted end of D1 here, vs. the way Dunnstral acted end of D1 in Warehouse 13 among others. I believe that even in a game where Dunnstral as town is being less active, his end-of-day powerspike is notable as town. I can also point towards other games, such as Mystery Box of Sylver I, where he had a notable activity spike at the end of the day giving both content and posts near deadline in spite of an otherwise lackluster performance. Which is to say:

even when Dunnstral is having an inactive towngame,

he usually spikes during end-of-D1s

.
In this game instead of a spike we got one, incredibly lackluster, post.

But then there's the non-meta, shown in 1865 in that Dunnstral's content this game is dismal and highly partner-indicative for Norwee but even if Norwee isn't scum is still fairly damning for a player. It's not related to Dunnstral's meta; any player with an iso as bad as his is, would be vote-worthy.

[mastina]

Mastina i'm not sure Dunnstral's activity or playstyle is all that allignment indicative. As Infinity said, they tend to be pretty low profile in almost all of their games.

I, however, hold no such shallow opinions as "Dunnstral has been inactive as both alignments and active as both alignments and therefore activity is nai".

I pay attention to the overall trends and the overall trends are that Dunnstral is active

more often

as town and inactive

more often

than scum, in a divide of 60/40 or greater.

Beyond that, even in Dunnstral's inactive town games, even when he is a lurksack doing fuckall of anything in his towngames, he still usually has a spike in activity at the end of D1 when D1's deadline is approaching and an elimination hasn't yet been reached. Whereas when he's scum, even if he's more active he is less present during that time overall.

Beyond that, that ignores how literally the

only

indicator he's town here is claimed role actions. (Which are actions that are, explicitly, not alignment indicative.) And by play there is literally

nothing

town there. Yet there is quite decent scum indicators present--scum indicators that would apply to ANY player, not just Dunnstral.

[mastina]

With Norwee, the only arguments against them I've found persuasive was from Taly, I probably need to revisit those. Major difference between norwee and dwlee for me is that I've had more positive internal reactions to norwee's posts "that's a good point" or "I like that question" while I've felt very indifferent(?) to dwlee's posts.

*a-HEM*

I feel like Mastina keeps harping on the same pounts about me but they never actually progress their read in response to things i’ve done or flips that are happening.

Your alignment doesn't change so the points I make don't become suddenly obsolete. What new information makes you less likely to be scum? Claiming the pack you got truthfully? The various claims today of which none are about you but which most sound true and thus narrow the poe down to include you? (That

strengthens

the scumread, it doesn't weaken it.) House flipping scum when nothing in your posts or his make you not be partners? And in fact you have decent partner equity with him? From your stances on him? Even taking time to process the guilty on him as being such?
Plus, House has decent partner equity with you, too, with this defense of you. He did vote Norwee here, but quoteth House himself,

Hopping on but back off before elimination is a pretty basic distancing tactic.

Guess what House did?

VOTE: T3

This looks an awful lot like hopping onto the Norwee wagon but backing off before a Norwee elimination, the very scum tactic House described.

If anything, the new evidence just keeps piling up and being

more

damning towards you being scum, Norwee. Not less.

[mastina]

Spoiler: Taly's case against Norwee

If Mom truly avoids scum games then it is valid to push. But it may look like that slot will be replaced soon and focus does little to help. So Mom-T3 there is possible but I'm likelier to say Mom is S and T3 is T.

To be truthful Norwee, I don't know what your catch up posts accomplish. They don't feel conclusive or directed.

Norwee's posting has been more shallow thus far than in previous experiences, and Flea may have been on to something about Mom dropping scum games.

Lol Infinity r u town.

I swear, Infinity is like the easiest player to read in existence.

I see mason in my card pack and will be picking it tonight
If any other town player sees mason at some point this game with me alive, they should take it

VOTE: Bingle
Bingle amirite

Nah, I turned around. You’re left. It’s been a while since I looked at the deck, but I don’t remember any particular tricks as important. Dunn should probs not pick mason (we might can turn it into a parity cop), but I need to think on this. See y’all tomorrow.

Town.

VOTE: cyrus62

Still trying to set up mis elim.

VOTE: Taly

Town?

VOTE: flea

Scum? (Honestly hard to tell tho.)

Vote: Infinity 324

Wtf Mastina. Where is the early full reads list?
This feels different and i don’t know how i feel about that.

cyrus is the most obvious town ever but I'll leave you to formulate your read by yourself with that knowledge.

I don’t really care if they are town. I just want them to keep being in the game and make funny posts.

But yes, they do seem just like town!Cyrus in the previous game i had with em.

My argument is not that T3 is town for calling mastina's post scummy. My argument is that House, given the context of FMFT having the thought that mastina's opening matches her scum meta as town, arguing that T3 arguing that mastina's post is scummy is scummy. I think T3 thinking mastina's opener is scummy is NAI.

...What?

Bingle can you share some of that good shit you’re smoking?

notice me

norweeeeeeeee

<3

Taly weren’t you supposed to be obvious town when town the last time i checked?
What’s your reads this game?

These are posts in his intro that didn't pass the vibe check with me. They're all filler, but they position

Norwe

into a certain lens of the slot.

He doesn't have to explain his townread on you because its so easy.

He doesn't need to ask

Mastina

why there is no readslist because "it is different and he doesn't know how to feel about that."

He doesn't have to care whether

Cyrus

is town because he might actually know it to be true.

He doesn't have to understand what

Bingle's

argument meant because it doesn't affect his position in the game.

He doesn't have to find nuance to my game play because he can rely on my reputation of being "obvtown" as a means to impose an expectation on me that I cannot control - perception from others.

None of these things alone is a negative. But the full picture gives me the idea that Norwe is filling space and any posts he has made early is not to solve - but to maneuver. To influence. To gauge.

Of course

Norwe

gets better overtime with posts because he knows what he has to handle in the game... alone, this behavior is NAI. But the context goes not give me faith.

Norwe, you're blowing a lot of hot air my way when you've prompted me to assess your slot and justify my vote.

Also, it is a misrep to condense my case onto you as only how you interact with Infinity when that is explicitly not the case, Norwe.
I don't like that that's the narrative you interpret my suspicion on.

Because I'm on vacation for the weekend and do not have access to computer. I'm not spending my life on mafia.

Keep the excuses coming buddy.

See, this is why I don't vibe with you this game. You painted my "will sheep wagon" and "who is my partner" posts has wolfy without actually trying to discern my motive
And then when I finally work with you by giving you input, you minimize it and bias it into the narrow viewpoint you have created on my slot.
This doesn't read sincere.

And if you think we are TvS, what are you doing right now to determine you do not mislim? And what if a mislim occurs then, the other is confscum?

What i always do, push, ask questions, evaluate. I’m also waiting for Mastina to get back as they seem to have dipped.

This is not a satisfactory answer. This doesn't explain how you're reading Mastina or I in a nuanced manner and how that contributes to your view of the game at large.

I also doubt Infinity-Norwe SvS happens,... and my recent interaction with Norwe strengthened my scumread of his slot.

Yeah, at no point have I reciprocated the "let's write this off as TvT" with Norwee, nor think I eluded to that. The disconnect between how he frames this situation and how I've actively detailed my POV about it is why I think his frustration may be likelier coming from scum. His posts have been some form of diversion since mine and mastina's push.

There are FIVE votes on you. There are only THREE SCUM.

[5] NorwegianboyEE:

mastina, Flea The Magician

, Taly, NDMath,

T3

@NDMATH:

from your perspective, 3/5 of the names on the Norwee L-2 wagon are conftown (Flea, T3, and yourself). So if Norwee is town,

where are the scum on the Norwee wagon?

But if

Norwee

wobbles into this thread again only to ignore my previous posts specifically about him, I'm going to deathtunnel that slot.

Big highlight to be outside the spoiler;

[5] NorwegianboyEE:

mastina, Flea The Magician

, Taly, NDMath,

T3

@NDMATH:

from your perspective, 3/5 of the names on the Norwee L-2 wagon are conftown (Flea, T3, and yourself). So if Norwee is town,

where are the scum on the Norwee wagon?

If the answer is, "none",

Why are there zero scum on an L-2 wagon of Norwee?

Spoiler: Flea's Case against Norwee

I would say Mom is a scumread because she tends to lurk as scum (eg. dogs vs cats).

Thanks for that. Remind me, who is Mom again? Also, I'm not familiar with the game you're referencing. Does Mom only lurk as scum or are there times this has also happened as town?

From what I've seen she basically tries to coast the entire game as scum. She's more proactive as town. Mom is Momrangal.

Yeah this....
VOTE: Mom

(Notably, this is even more of a case against Norwee with House as scum; House was defending Momrangal, Norwee's predecessor, here.)

VOTE: House
I feel good on this. Mom is scum too.

(Wouldn't ya know it? Flea was right about House and was right about Norwee, too.)

ok so NWEE is scum, straight up. Mom WIM tell.

I'm prtty sold on Norwee scum here, honestly.

Why?

Strong gut vibe.

Flea can you point at what posts made you go from

See I've caught ScumWee pretty early before, and I'm not feeling this vibe...

to

I'm prtty sold on Norwee scum here, honestly.

Lack of follow ups on questioning mainly and the vibe is matching CaD mafia.

Spoiler: Infinity Case

Of all the players here Infinity should be the most qualified to read me imo.

This seems wrong, I only have one completed game with you. Honestly it bothers me that you're saying this.

Norwee why didn't you engage with my reasoning for taly!town

This really confuses me.
So it seems like in your push against House you’re asking them to show more town motivation, but you’re not really explaining what this supposed town motivation that has been lacking from House’s posts is. Which makes me sorta indifferent to your push there. What is House doing here that he wouldn’t as town in response to being pushed??

The response to being pushed isn't really the problem, I felt like 640 had a pretty reasonable scum motivation (trying to look unbothered by my vote) but no town motivation that I could see. His response, I guess, is that he was just being frustratingly pedantic, which I do actually think could be reasonable after thinking about it more. But that was the idea behind my push.

(Notably, this is Norwee having a

big fucking huge

defense of House, our flipped scum.)

Norwee's scumgame kinda looks like his towngame tbh, except less

I'm sort of baffled that you're not townreading mastina though.
VOTE: norwee

Norwee I feel like you're either making up excuses to SR mastina or are upset about the tunnel and that's strongly biasing your read. Tunneling isn't scummy

Important to highligh as being House-tied-to-Norwee since folks don't read spoilers:

I would say Mom is a scumread because she tends to lurk as scum (eg. dogs vs cats).

Thanks for that. Remind me, who is Mom again? Also, I'm not familiar with the game you're referencing. Does Mom only lurk as scum or are there times this has also happened as town?

From what I've seen she basically tries to coast the entire game as scum. She's more proactive as town. Mom is Momrangal.

Yeah this....
VOTE: Mom

(Notably, this is even more of a case against Norwee with House as scum; House was defending Momrangal, Norwee's predecessor, here.)

This really confuses me.
So it seems like in your push against House you’re asking them to show more town motivation, but you’re not really explaining what this supposed town motivation that has been lacking from House’s posts is. Which makes me sorta indifferent to your push there. What is House doing here that he wouldn’t as town in response to being pushed??

The response to being pushed isn't really the problem, I felt like 640 had a pretty reasonable scum motivation (trying to look unbothered by my vote) but no town motivation that I could see. His response, I guess, is that he was just being frustratingly pedantic, which I do actually think could be reasonable after thinking about it more. But that was the idea behind my push.

(Notably, this is Norwee having a

big fucking huge

defense of House, our flipped scum.)

[mastina]

Oh I forgot to include T3 in there--yaknow, the weird-ass random-ass nightkill scum made. For no reason I can discern but clearly having a reason.

Because I'm on vacation for the weekend and do not have access to computer. I'm not spending my life on mafia.

Keep the excuses coming buddy.

Now i’m not entirely sure which one of you/Mastina is the scum, as it would be quite unlikely for two scum to pile on an case. But i’m perfectly fine wagoning either of you two until i find out.

These both ping me weirdly.

Eh i should have tried to keep my cool more, i've tried to change my style recently where i don't act all flustered about being wagoned but i went back to my old roots again.
I'll evolve to an higher level of consciousness from this point on. In the grand scheme of things, these fights do not help me with solving. Better to settle this petty squabble and look at the game differently.
Now i don't think,

The tone of this post feels off to me on a reread.

If Norwee isn't scum then I really don't know who is.

VOTE: Norwee
I get a very similar tone to the newbie when he was scum. He's a lot more authoritative and his posts almost come off as coming from a robot.

I voted Norwe because his tone felt weird.

At the same time mastina posted a case on Norwee, and I independently arrived at my own conclusion.

So, what Norwee is saying is a downright fabrication and probably scum.

Imagine if the solve is something stupid like Norwee Flea and Ndmath.

For that matter cyrus had his own thoughts I also forgot.

I think Norwegian vs tally is svs

This doesn't read sincere and I'm getting frustrated.

Why are you getting frustrated if you think i’m being insincere? This doesn’t seem like the correct mindset to have.

So what

is

a correct mindset?

And if you think we are TvS, what are you doing right now to determine you do not mislim? And what if a mislim occurs then, the other is confscum?

What i always do, push, ask questions, evaluate. I’m also waiting for Mastina to get back as they seem to have dipped.

This is not a satisfactory answer. This doesn't explain how you're reading Mastina or I in a nuanced manner and how that contributes to your view of the game at large.

The correct mindset is to not act frustrated when literally someone you claim to scumread supposedly acts insincere in your eyes? Like why would you expect supposed mafia to be sincere? It just seems like an weird thing to say you feel based on your claimed mindset.
Not that i feel like i’ve been insincere in the first place but your comment pinged me.

I think this here is insincere

Cyrus i ignore most of your posts because they’re almost unreadable. That doesn’t mean i’d say i haven’t read up on the game.

Just not when I'm questioning you or when your quoteing it and saying let you know how it gos or better yet I want to see more post from you?

Well yeah, i try to respond to your questions obviously?

I cught you and you know it so go write in the scum pt Cyrus cught me. But here's the thing I will vote mistina and if she flips town I'm voteing you.

Admittedly, both of these kills don't give absolute infallible scumreads on Norwee, but they do show at least the potential interest in voting Norwee. T3's having been proven by having voted there before, and cyrus being the wildcard he was, being a tangible threat.

How many players who scumread Norwee need to flip town before you realize it's not just me scumreading Norwee, that it isn't me tunneling on town, and that Norwee is actually just scum?

[mastina]

Like she totally left out the posts where T3 states a TR on Norwee and calls cyrus' reads bad.

Not exactly.

Oh I forgot to include T3 in there--yaknow, the weird-ass random-ass nightkill scum made. For no reason I can discern but clearly having a reason.

Admittedly, both of these kills don't give absolute infallible scumreads on Norwee, but they do show

at least the potential interest in voting Norwee

. T3's having been proven by having voted there before, and cyrus being the wildcard he was, being a tangible threat.

My point isn't that "T3 was scumreading Norwee at the time of his death and that is why he was nightkilled".

My point is that T3 showed a

proven willingness

to vote Norwee at the time of his death, having shown that he was willing to vote there

even when townreading Norwee

, presenting a tangible threat to Norwee.

To repeat, Norwee got

five votes

on D1. And both cyrus and T3 showed a willingness to vote for Norwee.

Neither cyrus nor T3 make much sense as nightkills because both are players who aren't exactly top-tier town players and both were potential mislims. But the scum still killed them anyway.

Now, some scum kills and lack thereof make sense:
For N2 in particular;
There was a commute overload in NDMath, Bingle, and Titus--scum weren't going to kill in there.
Norwee wasn't going to kill me--as the most vocal pusher of Norwee being scum and with many seeing "1 scum in mastina/Norwee" killing me was suicidal.
So given that scum's options were (and you need to remove two names from here as they would be scum themselves) {Infinity, Dwlee, Dunnstral, Norwee, T3}.
If you take into account pack tracking and not wanting to kill who the commutes were sent to (as commutes would be kill immune, obv), that forces you to remove Dwlee and technically, Norwee, too.

So scum's nightkill options were:
{Infinity, Dunnstral, T3}.

Infinity was defending Norwee more than not, whereas T3 was willing to vote Norwee even without being sure Norwee was scum.

So why did the scum shoot T3 instead of Infinity, the person who literally guiltied House? Because Norwee needed Infinity to defend him and T3 was willing to vote Norwee.

[mastina]

Like she totally left out the posts where T3 states a TR on Norwee and calls cyrus' reads bad.

Not exactly.

Oh I forgot to include T3 in there--yaknow, the weird-ass random-ass nightkill scum made. For no reason I can discern but clearly having a reason.

Admittedly, both of these kills don't give absolute infallible scumreads on Norwee, but they do show

at least the potential interest in voting Norwee

. T3's having been proven by having voted there before, and cyrus being the wildcard he was, being a tangible threat.

My point isn't that "T3 was scumreading Norwee at the time of his death and that is why he was nightkilled".

My point is that T3 showed a

proven willingness

to vote Norwee at the time of his death, having shown that he was willing to vote there

even when townreading Norwee

, presenting a tangible threat to Norwee.

To repeat, Norwee got

five votes

on D1. And both cyrus and T3 showed a willingness to vote for Norwee.

Neither cyrus nor T3 make much sense as nightkills because both are players who aren't exactly top-tier town players and both were potential mislims. But the scum still killed them anyway.

Now, some scum kills and lack thereof make sense:
For N2 in particular;
There was a commute overload in NDMath, Bingle, and Titus--scum weren't going to kill in there.
Norwee wasn't going to kill me--as the most vocal pusher of Norwee being scum and with many seeing "1 scum in mastina/Norwee" killing me was suicidal.
So given that scum's options were (and you need to remove two names from here as they would be scum themselves) {Infinity, Dwlee, Dunnstral, Norwee, T3,

Almost50

}.
If you take into account pack tracking and not wanting to kill who the commutes were sent to (as commutes would be kill immune, obv), that forces you to remove Dwlee and technically, Norwee, too.

So scum's nightkill options were:
{Infinity, Dunnstral, T3,

Almost50

}.

Infinity was defending Norwee more than not, whereas T3 was willing to vote Norwee even without being sure Norwee was scum.

So why did the scum shoot T3 instead of Infinity, the person who literally guiltied House? Because Norwee needed Infinity to defend him and T3 was willing to vote Norwee.

Edit by way of Quote; accidentally left out Almost50 as one of the people in the kill pool.

So Almost50 was also on the table--making the selection of T3 over both A50 and Infinity (and technically Dunn but Dunn's just scum here anyway) stick out even more.

[mastina]

cyrus claimed he had the multi-tasking modifier he flipped with. I know I'm not quite experienced in this setup (I only played it once before as a late replacement) but maybe Multi-tasking is reason enough to off a player?

Multitasking is basically worthless--the scum can perform a kill AND a pack action, so they already have partial multitasking, and to use more than one action requires you to have more than one action to perform in a night.

In order to have value out of multitasking,
1: You need to pick up multitasking N1,
2: After picking up multitasking, you need to pick up a pack that allows you to use an action on N3 or later,
3: After picking up this pack that allows you to use an action on N3 or later, you then need to pick up a SECOND action useable on N3 or later,
4: You need to live to see N3, avoiding both elimination and nightkill,
5: And then you need to get the mileage out of using two roles in the same night.

All of that adds up to: no, multitasking is not nightkill-worthy if a townie picks it up.
Heck, the only reason multitasking is stronger for scum here is that they choose where packs land.

[mastina]

gun-to-my-head I'd prefer a Dunn lim here.

I'd actually join you there as, 1: Dunnstral is probably scum anyway, and, 2: A Dunn scumflip would further show Norwee to be scum.

[mastina]

Dunn I just have the mason claim

You keep repeating this like it has any value. There is NO MASONRY, so it's NAI at best. NDMath thinks it AI for Dunn to have announced it, but I still think it's NAI

at best

.

Let me explain further: Scum!me gets a Mason card (of only 2 available on the list). I claim it and see if someone else claims having the other one. If they do, I shoot them at night and claim I picked that and had a Masonry with a dead person. No biggie. Corpses can't CC.
If nobody claims it then it's safe to assume there are no Masons in this game, and that's IF I had a Mason option to begin with.

Now let's consider me taking a more dangerous route, like.. claiming I have a Mason option when in fact I don't. That is risky because if 2 others claim they have it I'm screwed. If Only one does then I know whom to shoot tonight and -same as above- except I can take the ability I want from my pack and pass it and the next person to receive it won't know the difference.

Now let's consider a THIRD option: My PARTNER had the Mason card. >I< claim it. Again, someone responds and that's the NK. Nobody does and my PARTNER takes the card (to hide it) and I take the ability I want from my package.

The difference between Scum claiming a Mason card they have in their own package and one who claims it from their partner's package is how good the other options on one's package are. I won't bother making all the -unneeded- hypothetical propositions and analyze them, but I'm sure you get the picture by now.

Let me give some extra points: I did have 2 Strongman shots in my starting package and I claimed them on D1. You'd think someone who had a 2-shot Doctor ability would want to eliminate me and pick that over Mason. Dunn passed me that ability (which -with 3 Strongman shots floating- is totally useless.)

I have more, but I think I've said enough. I don't buy the Mason claim, and if I chose to do I still think it's NAI. I dislike his "none-existence" in the game thread (I know he is usually low on activity but I also know Town!him has a higher impact on things while being of a low post count), and I dislike his choice of a "claimed Mason ability with no confirmation that another exists" over a 2-shot Doctor, and I find it odd he never voted me despite me claiming I had 2 Strongman shots.

Can you reevaluate now and tell me how you feel about Dunn?

It's not often that I agree wholeheartedly with Almost50 so I think it's DAMN important I emphasize that in this post? I am agreeing wholeheartedly with Almost50. He and I almost never see fully eye to eye so the fact that we both do on Dunn here should really say something because Almost50 is dead on the money.

Literally the

only

defense for Dunnstral boils down to,
1: "Dunnstral has low activity towngames, therefore his low activity is nai" (this is not a reason to think the slot is town!),
2: "Dunnstral claimed mason and that must magically make him town somehow" (Almost50 does a good job of deconstructing that viewpoint and dispelling the magic to show why Dunnstral's mason claim is nai-at-best)

Whereas the reasons for Dunnstral to be scum?
Actually based off of not only what he's done this game (jackshit), but also actually extensive, fairly researched, nuanced meta on him, combined with a side of POE.

Dunnstral has no real reason to be town--in a game where most slots have reasons to be town.

What if the other 3 were strong for Town and unworthy to Scum? Like.. I dunno.. N4 Tracker, N3 Watcher, N3 Follower, N4 Vig, N4 GS.. etc. (I am going by the list on the wiki. I am sure there are more options that are (a) Strong in the hands of Town, (b) semi-useless to Scum, and (c) to be used later, so not an immediate pick from T3's PoV

At the risk of revealing too much, at least one of my investigatives was a role in your list above and I explicitly started with two investigatives. As NDMath got my packs, he should be able to confirm this and confirm that those investigatives were not in fact removed via nightkilling T3.

[mastina]

VOTE: dwlee
Hard Guilty

Dwlee was pretty fucked here because giving an odd-night doctor to the slot who knew exactly where either an N3 follower or N3 watcher was, was...let's just say, a mistake. I was protecting NDMath so even if Dwlee shot NDMath instead of me, wouldn't have worked.

Mastina is just that good at reading me you see.
/s

Lol Infinity r u town.

Oh wow. I legit didn't know your scumgame was this obvious, Norwee, but hot damn is it that obvious.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE
This is the hardest of hard accuses.

If NorwegianboyEE doesn't flip scum, immediately eliminate me.

I'm

that

sure that Norwee is scum here.

This is a hard 1v1

.

NorwegianboyEE was...

a mafia N2 Watcher and 1-shot commuter!

Apparently? Yes. /sincere

Hard gulties always ruin the fun.

To be fair: I was convinced the last scum was either Dunnstral or Dwlee and figured that with NDMath we could guilty the final scum or clear the townie in the two of them and just eliminate the other and even if we didn't, we could yeet both one after the other.

House was someone who had a decent chance of being eliminated even without the guilty.

Also, to a large extent, both of the scum's prior nightkills were absolutely horrible. Killing cyrus didn't help them at all and killing T3 was actually detrimental to them because T3 was the main alternative to eliminating Norwee so I don't think you can blame the loss solely on two guilties. It also was imo a large amount of scum misplays which snowballed an insurmountable lead because past a certain point, all the second guilty did was speed up what was going to happen anyway.

Granted, the setup may need tweaking since the scum have less control than they did in the original iteration of the setup and the town is stronger from having more control than they did in the original iteration of the setup leading to the setup in most rngs being more townsided, but I wouldn't say the townsidedness of the setup is the reason scum lost, here.

We could add some non factional tracking roles (follower that can’t pick up the nk), some off the cuff utility roles (the ability to leave behind a message when limmed), some additional disruptive roles (commute style non investigative hider) and communication roles (more neighborizors) to the main packs.

Scum wouldn’t go wrong with a factional action or two as well (rolecop/roleblocker).

Otherwise, running as is 11:4 would probably work as a fix.

For the record, I feel like I could give good feedback there but am not up to the task right now.

Also Momrangal apparently only switched out because they forgot this game existed, so screw you everyone that said it was an scum indicative replace out.

I mean, my suspicion on Momrangal was soft, based off of her one post before she flaked--it looked like a scum post, obviously, but it was just one post and I wasn't convinced that her flakeout was scum-indicative. (Not that it mattered given that I still felt it was reasonably persuasive anyway.)

My suspicion was 98% due to you and your actions tho.

[mastina]

Can we please not just yeet the freaking fairy for making sense D1?

I tried to defend you, Flea! <3

(I even on policy refused to vote outside your wagon as a sort of vengeance from the grave type thing. )

I'm not sure how feasible this is but what about adding things like
N2 Tracker or Strongman that way there's a scum role and a town role in the same pack

Could definitely be feasible, but the reason we didn't go that route was because scum already has a huge incentive to take strong town roles (See Dwlee with the Gsmith). And given the number of ways town can fuck with results (millers, roleblocks, ascetics) scum can't really safely fake their action.

I think if you want value added scumroles, you should probably go with and instead of or. (N2 Tracker AND SMan) or (Compulsive 1-shot Ascetic AND Novice Disloyal Checker) or (Compulsive Gun Vendor AND Novice 1 Shot Gunsmith) would all be ways of stapling scum utility to a powerful town role, though.

(I don't really like this route btw as I feel like it strays from the core mechanic of the Draft...well, mechanic. Yes, it's technically still picking a role, but it is picking a role in a way that doesn't feel like it's picking a role, if that makes sense. Also, while I realize role evolutions haven't been added to the Open version of the setup, "role1 AND role2" would make role evolutions even harder to figure out than they already are.)

Thinking on it more, inflating the amount of vanilla cards to a point of balance is probably just a lazier solution compared to going through and decreasing the strength of roles.

This is more along my lines for what I think would be a good fix.

If the problem is too many investigatives possible in the packs, you

can

fix that by removing the investigatives (or further nerfing them), or you

can

fix the problem by adding more scum counters to those roles (or further buffing the existing ones), but imo the fastest fix would just be to add more cards to the total, making each pack less likely to contain an overflow of gamebreaking investigatives. If there's only a 1/10 chance of getting a useful investigative rather than a 3/5 or so chance of getting a useful investigative, it makes it less likely you'll get an investigative overload, while still maintaining the funness of the setup and allowing for further tweaking and potentially the ability to create the evolved roles eventually.

[mastina]

With t3 I was trying to get rid of the N3 tracker cause I knew it could end up screwing me over (which happened with the follower instead).

Well there were two N3 actions in my starting pack so the only way you could get rid of both was to kill me N1 or NDMath N2 as I had both the N3 follower and the n3 watcher. (My original plan was to take the N3 watcher, but when Norwee lived I changed to wanting the N3 follower to catch Norwee by role if nobody eliminated Norwee by play...and it was at that time I noticed the vengeful and was forced to pick it up.)

[mastina]

Subject: Mini Theme 2222: Open Draft Mafia Mafia Thread

What can you do when an player that is universially townread by literally everyone keeps voting you and hard scumreading you?
Absolutely nothing.

I think we just need to nightkill them and make it out as if it's an frame. That'll be easier than having to deal with this.

(Btw for the record--this is precisely why I play the way I do. I really really wanted to write an article explaining the methodology behind what amounts to strategic tunneling but never managed to figure out how to do so. The basic version is that this playstyle, in moderation, is beneficial to the town. If I tunnel onto a town player, it is likely that I will keep both that town player and myself alive. This wrong-tunnel can then be, at any day, at any moment, reversed from a wrong read into a correct read, and then the scum are punished for having left us both alive, like you pointed out. If the town player I tunneled on is nightkilled in spite of my tunnel, it's not as good but at least the tunnel ends. If the scum kill me in spite of me tunneling on town, lol I guess? I explicitly play to get nightkilled in every game I play so if I succeed, job done. And if I tunnel on scum then this is precisely the mindset they will be in. Where there's nothing they can do except nightkill me. Done smartly, done right, done intelligently, strategically, and in moderation, it is win-win-win-win no matter which of the four outcomes happens. The only time this can backfire is if I tunnel, live to lylo, and the player I am tunneled on also lives to lylo and is town and I

don't

back out of the tunnel...but that almost never happens. Or I suppose I tunnel on scum, but wrongly back out of the tunnel. That rarely happens but it has happened before.

I realize tunnels are insanely frustrating if you are the player tunneled on, especially if the tunnel is wrong. I realize the strategy can potentially distract the town from more accurate reads if it is entirely wrong. Which is why you don't see me tunnel literally every game. I only do so when I think the reward is worth the risk. It is a tool, just like any other tool in mafia games; the way you present your read and the strength of confidence you have in your read is no exception to this. Showing absolute conviction in a scumread, a tunnel, is a tool, with a time and place to be used. I can get good mileage out of this tool, but I am aware of the drawbacks and I am aware it isn't ideal every game.)

Subject: Mini Theme 2222: Open Draft Mafia Mafia Thread

They are not asking other people to vote me or challenging them on their reads, they are just writing the points and doing nothing else about it. Excepting people to reach the conclusion that i am scum themselves.
You can't play town and not be proactive. That just ends up in the game becoming a dead husk like we're seeing here.

Actually, making people reach the conclusion a slot is scum is the

best

way to get them to vote the slot, but it's true that this strategy need not be reactive and you can still be proactive by challenging townreads (I didn't do this for two main reasons; 1: no energy, and 2: no ability for me to really do so) and ask to be sheeped. The two ideally augment each other, where instead of ramrodding the answer down their throat you walk them through the process to get to the right answer, while continuing to challenge their assumptions and continuing to ask for their support.

I didn't have the energy to do that, though, but fortunately, I am well aware of the power of town stagnation and apathy, and I have patience and persistence on my side, the upside of the tunneling strategy. It didn't work on D1 to my frustration, and D2's end result was a given, but it did work on D3. I didn't need to be proactive when the reactive nature of the gamestate left no other truly viable option for the elimination and the pressure I was applying. I was insistent on eliminating Norwee and I left people with the path to vote Norwee.

Most of them hesitated to do so, but did ultimately do so.

I realize that this more passive approach is slower, less effective, less efficient, etc. and less reliable, with it being more prone to failure (as shown on D1), but it is not something which is ineffective altogether. It's the best I could do when struggling in real life like I have been, and if I were not struggling irl I would've done better, but it still got the job done. Slower than ideal, less reliably than ideal, less effectively than I preferred, but I was still doing my best to guide the gamestate to a forced Norwee elimination sooner or later.

Because as you pointed out two posts later: you were voted and there was no viable alternative.

(Props to your 289 tho. I like to turn lyrics from songs into mafia lyrics, too.)