Mini 763 - Carnival Mafia - Game Over

[Empking]

SP: Ort's role name was the janitor?

MODEDIT: Yes, that is correct. He cleaned at night, so he was able to see who was home (making him a tracker). I'll change the flavor to make that more clear.

[Empking]

First things first, let's talk about how awesome I am that I got you people to put me at L-1 in two pages and then got all those votes off me in the same time span. Simply put, I rule.

Simply put that wasn't useful.

Noc: Did you gdet any money last night or did I read your role wrong?

[Empking]

I'm lost for words.

I have some words you could borrow...

Unvote

Vote: WLC

Why was that scummy?

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Noc

I don't beleive he's town.

[Empking]

A lot of players are acting quite scummy but I think the major Nocmen thing is too major to ignore.

[Empking]

Shanba: WLC and DDD are the main ones.

[Empking]

Vanilla townie?

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: DDD

Jester lynch is good.

[Empking]

Jester lynch is not good, Emp....look up the role.

Do you know what a jester is?

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: DDD

Are you a sole winner?

[Empking]

Vote: Noc

I still think he's scum.

I think the sibling should claim. I doubt that DDD was the sibling and the mod didn't tell us.

VPB: What's your sibling role?

[Empking]

Jester lynch is good.

[Empking]

Everyone should go back and read Shinnen's original post on the matter. The mod commented.

Does something suggest that we haven't already?

[Empking]

I'd expect the mod woiuld've mentioned the copness of Shanba in that case.

[Empking]

Why?

Also, who do you think the scum is Emp?

Nocmen with an unknown scum partner.

[Empking]

Well in terms of opinions, I think it is possible that there wasn't a night kill last night and DDD could have been the sibling (ie, Shanba possibly was an odd day Jester), but I really have nothing of substance to back up such an idea.

We would've lynched day one if that was the case.

[Empking]

Jester lynch is good.

[Empking]

Jester lynch is good.

Why why why? Basically first place is gone now, and we're only fighting for a second place now.

Not true.

Also the Jester is not part of the scumgroup, with a Jester-lynch, it gives scum another night to kill.

A jester is an anti-town role.

I really don't understand why you're requoting yourself.

To help VPB's understanding.

[Empking]

Ok, just read the mod's note, so I'm guessing that's there's truly not a connection between DDD and Shanba. However, there must be a connection with someone else. And I'm liking that idea of the scum sibling who will end up killing himself tonight. If that's the case, then it's best just to let that issue be.

Right now, I don't have much on anyone, except the small issue with Nocmen's slip and Emp. Regarding this last one... WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK A JESTER LYNCH IS GOOD???? What would have been if the game ended with DDD's win?

I had faith in SP that it wouldn't.

Really, you're more of a hinderance (sp?) to the town than a help, Emp!

Vote: Emp

A jester is an anti-town role. Anti-town roles get killed. It looks like we lack a vig so anti-town roles get lynched.

Emp has 18 posts in the game.

You have two more and I replaced in after day one.

Most of them are single-phrased, with no content whatsoever. He never does anything to back up his claims, nor he cares for that. He's clearly not helpful to the town, hell, he's clearly ANTI-town.

You're making unbacked claims that I'm making unbacked claims?

We're at a point in the game where the remaining players need to be useful, and Emp clearly isn't. Going further in days with Emp would only makes things harder for us. His useless posts won't help us in a future, as they haven't, and he will only be a bad distraction for town.

Just to make it clear to everyone, Shin thinks I'm town but dislikes me so is trying to get me lynched via an absurd and hypocritical case.

[Empking]

Oh, yeah
People talking about second place: Just ask the mod.

[Empking]

In that case, Emp was correct about the Jester lynch. (Although personally, I would have still liked to see DDD not get a win on his record for such obvious jester play).

Moving on, the Emp case is the usual emp case in many games. He's useless, he's a distraction to town, blah blah blah.

However, given the theory that we might have a scum suicide tonight, policy lynching Emp in this case may be useful.

No, it won't because at the very least in this game, I've been more useful than Shin. So PLing a udseful player is just stupid.

One thing I really didn't like was the way he came in yesterday and effectively cut all discussion short by voting DDD. I think if the town could have talked a bit more, we might have figured out what was going on.

There was no real, useful discussion to cut short.

It appeared that we lacked a vig. Scum wouldn't kill him which meant if he was a jester (like you kerpt on going on about) he'd've had to win sometime and the earlier the better.

[Empking]

It's your opinion that you are more useful than Shinnen, I disagree.

What has Shin done that was useful?

DDD's playstyle had dramatically shifted over night and if we had been given a chance to see another day with him I think we would have been able to figure it out.

Says the main "he's a jester" person.

You made the assumption we didn't have a vig just because there was no kill on N1. Plenty of viges would hold off until they were sure in a small game like this.

If I was wrong and we do have a vig, I'll be very surprised.

I'm just very much against impromptu lynches I guess.

How was it Impromptu?

There was some minor discussion going on and it could have developed given a chance. You coming in and deciding for the town that it was pointless for the day to continue was pretty reckless and anti-town, boarding on scummy.

It coluldn't have developed and its not scummy due to it being a pro-town action.

[Empking]

What has Shin done that was useful?

She has asked many pertinent questions, and was the first person on Chief's wagon. Highly doubtful she was bussing.

Why? It wasn't very strong and its likely that Noc was also scum.

DDD's playstyle had dramatically shifted over night and if we had been given a chance to see another day with him I think we would have been able to figure it out.

Says the main "he's a jester" person.

Yes, exactly. I don't get what you are saying here.

Your complete assuredness that DDD was a Jester was the thing stopping us from getting to the truth of the matter.

If I was wrong and we do have a vig, I'll be very surprised.

At this point I doubt we have a vig, but it still could have been a possibility yesterday. How were you so certain that we did not?

Noc would've been vigg'd.

How was it Impromptu?

Because it happened very quickly, imo. Day 1=9 pages. Day 2=5 pages. That means day 2 was barely half of day 1, which in itself was very brief because Chief made such a blunder. I call that pretty impromptu.

A wagon doesn't normally take more than five pages after day one.

(Discussion) coluldn't have developed and its not scummy due to it being a pro-town action.

Perhaps you can peer into your crystal ball and see who the scum are since you are able to definitively state that the discussion wasn't going anywhere.

I was being no more definite than a lot of your comments.

[Empking]

I really have no inclination to get into a quote war. Nocmen is not scum, and if you actually read what went down D1 it is pretty obvious that the case against him is based on a misinterpretation of something he said.

I don't see how being assured that DDD was a Jester was inhibiting the town from figuring out that fact.

He wasn't a jester. He was an even day jester.

Your point about Noc being vigged holds water I suppose since so many other players thought he was scum at that point.

Your point about wagons is complete conjecture and not true, imo. It changes from game to game and I think the lynch was premature yesterday.

It's a fact that discussion would have continued to develop if the day hadn't ended. That's what people do when the day continues, they talk about things. You cut short any possibility of further information by allowing DDD to self-hammer. That's another fact, but you can continue to deny that if you'd like.

When did I deny it?

[Empking]

@Emp:

Just to make it clear to everyone, Shin thinks I'm town but dislikes me so is trying to get me lynched via an absurd and hypocritical case.

You may have a point, but you are not all that useful either (though, admittedly, this is the first game I've seen you make decent sense in most cases)..

Have we been in a game together where I've been town before?

[Empking]

Is there an actual case on me that isn't woefully hypocritical and wrong? I think I might have missed it.

Name: Newspaper Reporter
Fluff: I came here to do a fluff piece on the Carnival.
Role; Reporter

Actions:
Shin - Stayed at home.
Shanba - Went out

[Empking]

Sorry, checked again.

Shanba stayed at home too.

[Empking]

I'd like Shin to claim BTW.

[Empking]

WLC: Can you claim? People want you to.

WLC: Why do you consider a reporter claim predictable?

WLC: Why would I have been affected?

WLC: How have I "stepped up [my] game"?

[Empking]

We agreed on an order to the claims, Emp.

No we didn't and the reason that order was proposed was because K was under the impression that WLC wasn't here.

Unvote

Vote: VPB

His protection of Shin and the fact that Shin and VPB share a completely ridiculous view point.

It's not WLC's turn. I find it highly suspicious that you 'made a mistake' in telling us your night actions.

Why did you choose those specific targets?

Shin because I recognized the name.
Shanba because I felt I couldn't get a read on him.

[Empking]

Wow, a vote simply because I question your claim. jumpscumjump.

Proof please.

[Empking]

Hmmm... Emp's claim seems kind of real to me, except with the small slip, which makes it suspicious. Wouldn't he had slipped, I would have believed him. Also, his reaction to VP is also strange too. Sounds like someone is nervous. Hmmm... Wait, I'm thinking in something... Why would he slip? He first thought Shanba was out, because of he leaving. But then, he realized that it would be more logical for him to be at home to get targeted and thus changed his statement.

No, I just made a mistake. My memory isn't perfect.

[Empking]

Or, you just made a slip. Your scumplay isn't perfect.

I don't understand how it could be a slip. Can you explain?

[Empking]

Wow, a vote simply because I question your claim. jumpscumjump.

Proof please.

What more proof do I need than your vote with little to no reason that is up there?

You need to prove that I gave zero other reasoning than you disbelieving my claim.

It also seems less than likely to me that we would have two tracker style roles in such a small game. It's possible, but I think it would be dependent upon what kind of PRs the scum have.

I've chalked it down to the b*****dish of the game.

Kairyuu can go ahead, but I think if Weyouns is around at all he should claim as soon as he checks the thread. It would help your credibility the sooner you claim.

Wow. That was a quick change, wasn't it?

[Empking]

Can I confirm that we'll know that there's a vote on Grimmy but not that it your's?

[Empking]

How useful to you consider it (as a town power) in LyLO out of ten?

I think I should point out that it doesn't confirm him as town.

[Empking]

The mafia in WoT had it as a one-shot power.

[Empking]

His protection of Shin and the fact that Shin and VPB share a completely ridiculous view point.

That was your reason for voting me, Emp. Given that I haven't really seen much of anything scummy from Shinnen this whole game, it seems like a grasping reason to me. There isn't much proof in mafia, so your demand for it is quite ridiculous. I do consider your reason "zero reasoning" other than me questioning your claim.

Wow. That was a quick change, wasn't it?

Well, WLC did say he wasn't going to be around. Since he is, and I believe he is somewhat scummy, it makes sense for him to claim before other players. However, if town wants to stick with the original plan, I have no problem with that.

That isn't zero reasoning and I don't see how you could consider it so.

Wow. That was a quick change, wasn't it?

Well, WLC did say he wasn't going to be around. Since he is, and I believe he is somewhat scummy, it makes sense for him to claim before other players. However, if town wants to stick with the original plan, I have no problem with that.

You knew WLC was here before.

I'd prefer you to claim first.

[Empking]

It is a real reason.

Weyouns was not around when we decided the order of the claims. It was the general concensus that if he wasn't going to be around then we would just go ahead and let him claim last. However, he came in after you had claimed, so maybe letting him claim now (or he could have before Kairyuu even) wouldn't be such a bad idea.

That's not what you were saying before it was your turn to claim.

[Empking]

lol, I have nothing to lose from the claim. Once some more people check in and say they want me to claim first, I will claim. I was simply saying that the original plan might need amending if the premise (ie WLC not being around) has been changed.

That's not what you were saying before it was your turn.

[Empking]

Also, I'm leaning heavily towards (double)voting Empking right now,because I doubt we would have 2 trackers (or at least, 2 pro-town trackers) in a Mini, bastard-ish or not. Plus, the flavor doesn't fit.

Good thing I'm not a tracker nor have I claimed to be a tracker.

FoS: Kair

[Empking]

haha, it's pretty funny how Emp thinks everyone who questions him is scum.

Wow, Emp finds people who lie about the role Empking claimed scummy. How terrible.

[Empking]

@Emp: You claimed a role that determines if someone uses an action at Night. That's almost exactly what a tracker is, except that it doesn't show the target.

That's not a good excuse.

Plus, you slipped up and said that Shanba, who we know had no powers, used one N2. While this can be argued, because the kill flavor was "left," you then said that he didn't leave his house. Either way, you screwed up your claim, and are very likely scum because of it.

Wow I mixed up the mod saying "left" in the day post and in my PM. Wow.

[Empking]

K: Why can you buy the vanilla townies have the same flavour meaning that scum that claimed VT would be lynched due to factors outside there control but not town having two investigation roles?

[Empking]

Wow I mixed up the mod saying "left" in the day post and in my PM. Wow.

The question really is why did you need to look at your role PM to report on who you investigated.

To doublecheck after thinking that left sounded wrong.

Not to mention, remembering two investigations doesn't seem to be such a taxing thing that anyone should slip up in typing them.

It is when the mod says "left" just before you check the mod PM where one of the options was "left"

Wow, Emp finds people who lie about the role Empking claimed scummy. How terrible.

You do realize that town people don't know what your role is right? Doubting and lying are two different things, and questioning you is hardly scummy. Fortunately, such passionate OMGUS is in fact scummy.

Good thing he lied about it then, isn't it?

[Empking]

And there it is. Grimmy has one vote, and all of the other votes are accounted for. I have proven myself to be a doublevoter. I'm just gonna leave the vote there until the claims are done, at which point I will vote Emp.

So you

want

to reduce the amount of info the town has?

[Empking]

@Emp: Do 3 votes make a lynch? I'm just declaring that it will be there, so that the next person to vote knows that they will be the hammer.

No but it means we only get three players instead of four.

[Empking]

@Emp: Do 3 votes make a lynch? I'm just declaring that it will be there, so that the next person to vote knows that they will be the hammer.

No but it means we only get three players instead of four.

So? What does that change?
.

The amount of information we get.

How would WLC be confirmed town?

[Empking]

WLC: You were told what wars? Why didn't you sayv it in your claim?

Do waffle sellers exist in real life?

[Empking]

Sorry for the double post. I was also thinking about Emp's claim. Being a news reporter is even less believable considering that I don't see what interest a news reporter would have in the Jester and Puppeteers fighting over the carnival. Frankly, that's a better story than the "fluff piece" Emp says he came to the carnival for!

Its not the fight I'm here for. Its the arrival of a large carnival.

[Empking]

Looking at everything involved in Empking's claim, and even ignoring the slip up, it is very obvious that his claim is faked. .

Like working out Shin was a vanilla town where every role so far was power?

[Empking]

@Empking, what do you think of the other claims? Which ones do you think are believable or not? In the case you flip town if you get lynched, who do you find the most suspicious at the moment and why?

Unvote: VPB

I think you due to the knowledge of the wars you fought in that you didn't mention. Then K due to the "Don't mention the game that would disprove my point".

[Empking]

Like working out Shin was a vanilla town where every role so far was power?

I claimed vanilla, as did Nocmen (except for his confusion, which I'm still not entirely clear on).

The two of you claim vanilla (Noc claimed a power role) after I claimed.

[Empking]

Also, what's wrong with the vanilla claim? As Karyuu said, it seems the vanilla are the food vendors, so, what's the problem? Would you have preferred me (or VP or Noc) to claim a power role?

Ok, then, let me change my claim: I'm a power role that have the ability to stay quiet during nights, waiting for the dusk to come. During days I have this great ability called "vote", which lets me, with some help of other players with my power role, lynch a scumbag. Albeit it sometimes misses, it's the best PR ever.

There, happy?

EWho's that directed to?

[Empking]

To you, obviously.

When did I say there was something wrong with a vanilla claim?

I said that if I'm lying I worked out you were vanilla despite the fact that all claims/reveals were for PRs when I made that claim.

[Empking]

You did a good modding job.

Having all the VTs with the same (hidden) flavour is something you should be wary for in the future.

[Empking]

I enjoyed this game, and the setup was interesting. I was thinking when I was skimming over posts after my death "they still need to lynch Nocmen", lol, I was convinced his off wincon-claim was also damning.

Does sibling mean you die when they die (or the day after)? Cause if so the balloon-animal maker should have been playing their role like a jester. I think the setup was as a result biased against scum, although ironically Empking was lynched anyway.

Scum would have found it challenging to win this setup in a 2/8 split anyway, let alone with one being caught out day one due to wincon and the other being a sibling.

I think (I may be wrong) that calling him a sibling was just another example of BMing.

[Empking]

Emp, why did you claim reporter? Was it something you had considered before that time or just had to come up with quick when everyone was claiming?

I just came up with it and picked it because I wouldn't be counterclaimed and I had role info that Shin didn't move night one.

[Empking]

So, Emp when you replaced in and saw Chief was dead, what was really your strategy being in such a hole out of the gate?

There wasn't one.