/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Why are you commenting on this in particular? I haven't explained my vote, for example.forbiddanlight wrote:I dislike the fact that Patrick's exposition only came AFTER his two word vote post..
I keep forgetting when the deadline is for. D'oh.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Hi Patrick. Hi Gurgi.
Cawt up.Mod: Are there killing roles which do not require entering a person's room? Does "this includes killing roles" in Special Rules #4 mean that all killing roles require entering a person's room?
Patrick: I figured there was a double standard. I was a little surprised, but I guess it makes sense in retrospect.. I don't really draw a distinction between random voting and slightly-out-of-the-random-stage voting.
The Bellhop Role PM says "If more than one person tries to move a particular guest to a new floor on the same night, the computer will disregard those commands, the guest will remain unmoved". So, um, no.TDC wrote:Do we all agree that if there's an unclaimed town bellhop, he needs to move fl to green?
We got chronic invitational syndrome. Fitting, but in addition to being busy, I'm terribly uninspired and not really helping. I'm considering saying we shouldn't be lynching Danny, because that wagon's been going for a while, and no-one seems interested in an alternative.. but there's been like half the game voting for someone with only their vote on. We need to wagon a bit. Deadline now scares me, because this will be like the least informative day evah.
FL is probably town, yeah. I cannot shake the feeling that PJ is certain to have foreseen the plan and therefore we're (at best) not getting an advantage from it. But I don't know; it's possible he foresaw exactly this, and we're required to do it not to be at a disadvantage. Owell less' find out.
That.forbiddanlight wrote:
This...Battousai wrote:Also- LG/TDC: I'm totally lost on what just happened between you.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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I'm back, but I still don't have any meaningful opinions - I'm halfway through rereading now. Feel free to ask me questions, or so? I'm still struggling to find anything interesting, that's the problem. (I don't think my stance on DDD was bad, although maybe I didn't express it well because it was late.)Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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@LF: Well, generally if a scumbag's getting wagoned, their buddies tend to try and start a wagon on someone else, especially early on when wagons don't need much to get started, but no-one really seemed interested in trying. (My reasoning here is kinda like JDodge's in Open 55.) But for example, if Zaz and Danny happen to be scum (with 3 scum total), the single leftover mafioso isn't going to have much influence on the voting patterns. So the more it looks like no-one would be wagoning regardless of alignment, the harder it is (or less reliable) to tell why scum aren't wagoning.
..I think this makes sense.Succinctness is pro-town.
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If you'veforbiddanlight wrote:Translation: I'm back, but I have no stance since I already know who all the townies are and I can't find anyone doing something scummy enough to framejust statedthat no-one's doing anything scummy enough for me to decently attack them if I was scum, why do you think I'd act differently as town?
Well, let's get it over with.unvote, vote ZazieRfor not being me. Bed, now.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Very probably, yes. (atPatrick wrote:So do you consider it inevitable that either you or Zazier will be lynched at this point?forbiddanlightalso:) I don't currently think anyone else has a worthwhile case, so votes go on whichever bandwagon is popular. I think the current vote count justifies that opinion.
Pop quiz: If there really are mad awesome "this person is scum" cases out there, why is "omg lurker lynch" getting this amount of traction? The Battousai and Gurgi wagons had absolutely nothing behind them. This is basically a semi-random lynch, which (given the lack of info) is the logical move; I just think anyone seriously claiming I'm scummy is daft.
I was pointing out something specific so that other people could comment on it, so I don't see anything wrong with the fact it doesn't come to a definite conclusion on his alignment. Rereading Danny, I guess his frustration with LF looks genuine. His dislike of ZazieR is unfounded beyond lurking. Done not a lot else; I'd lean town, but shruggo. On Zazie, there's nothing to look at beyond the random stage, which I didn't get anything out of. I thought the Danny vote was fine. Null.Goatrevolt wrote:That's a long way of saying "they could be scum or town." I want to know what you personally think about DDD and Zazie.Succinctness is pro-town.
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forbiddanlight: The only game we've ever been in together, I washugelyunhelpful. You have given absolutely no reason why I'm unlikely to act this way as town, merely pointed out that I would as scum. ("Elmo would breathe as scum, Elmo is breathing, therefore Elmo is scum".)
Patrick: Unfounded means based on poor reasons. That is an opinion on the wagon, but it doesn't tell me anything about the alignments of the people involved. I don't consider that a useful opinion, and I'd probably be attacked more for IIoA if I posted it. (shrug)
What exactly characterises my "complete failure to look for scum"?
Why? That's a pretty bizarre statement.Patrick wrote:If the majority of people can get reads, then you certainly can.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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That was my idea. I didn't like it, because it's hard to tell here why the other wagon didn't appear.LlamaFluff wrote:So DDD is town because lack of a different wagon appeared when it was dancing the line between random and semi-random?
Okay.LlamaFluff wrote:Even if you have weak reads, especially at a time like this you need to put them out and at least attempt to explain them. I do not buy that your scum list is neutral-everyone, and thats it.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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(@LF: Okay to the second part. I get that you don't buy it, and I'm not really inclined to argue.)
FL: Playing differently can be caused either by a different alignment or different circumstances. Why do you think alignment is more likely? Why do you think I would behave like this as town?Succinctness is pro-town.
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Same. :VNuwen wrote:Here, alive, reading. This game kills me. Every time I begin trying to follow posts here I zone out and end up reading the same sentence half a dozen times with no significance.
I can't see a lot of point to keep posting here?Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Yes. Absolutely.Nuwen wrote:And you honestly think a competent scum player would so blatantly ignore the game and draw attention to himself through non-contribution.
There's like two or three parts. Before V/LA, I didn't do very much. Then I went on V/LA without any strong reads, came back, still don't have strong reads.Succinctness is pro-town.
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I think it's fair to say that I have a meta for not being interested / involved very early on in Day 1. My last game was Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia, for reference. This also fits pretty exactly with my play in BSG up to the point I decided a gambit was called for, incidentally. And Crackers D1, and probably some others.
Nuwen, do you think I should have played scum and just faked suspicions of some random people?Succinctness is pro-town.
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Patrick: In Satin Doll, I was genuinely V/LA, though. I told you that post-game. "Lynch Elmo if V/LA" probably isn't a good play? (Glork was essentially right to complain about the wagon, seeing as it was started by scum and was 50% scum at lynch, imo. But we debated that already <_<)
Mmm. That's not what I asked, though.Nuwen wrote:You don't need to fake suspicion to pull information out of people, which is what I consider the goal of Day 1.
As to Day 1: it varies. I think that I mostly skim it (ie actually read it) but make empty motions until something "interesting" happens that I can get involved with. In BSG, I kinda intentionally started a wagon on myself out of boredom. >_>
Good times.Elmo wrote:
I imagine I'm very trying.forbiddanlight wrote:Are you even TRYING?Succinctness is pro-town.
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It looked pretty straightforward from where I'm sitting. :Jforbiddanlight wrote:Considering how hard it was to reach 4 votes on Elmo in the first place, I do not suspect we will have this issue.Succinctness is pro-town.
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I don't want to put words in his mouth, but this was in the voting post.Battousai wrote:I think two wagons that are close together can provide us with information on how people decide to vote.
I think Nuwen is more likely to defend me in that manner as town. I acknowledge it's a kinda textbook scum manoeuver, tho. LlamaFluff, I don't think you got round to explaining your vote for me..?Succinctness is pro-town.
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I think if a lightning bolt struck me and I flipped scum near Gurgi's "I don't like to lynch Elmo as a general thing", he'd (understandably) be dogpiled. I think it makes considerable sense from "scum staying off popular town wagon near deadline", as well. I'm just curious why something less vocal seems to get less attention, given the push against lurkers.forbiddanlight wrote:Not as vehement. I did notice it, just never thought about things in the scum defending town perspective
In the name of all that's holy, why?Patrick wrote:After this evening I'm less comfortable with the idea that Elmo is scumSuccinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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I guess I'm obligated to point out that, if I'm town and Patrick can read me, he'd probably have swung round to defending me, and would therefore make a good kill. (shrug)
There seems to be a double standard, and I'm curious where it comes from. There isn't really a specific why.Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Elmo, where and why is the line of questioning coming from?
SpyreX / Goatrevolt: What specifically do you dislike about Nuwen's play?
In particular, this is not what I got out of her posting. I think there is a fairly obvious difference between someone who is pure-lurking and someone who says "yes, I'm here, I don't have much to contribute", and that she referenced that e.g. in 496. I haven't found a stated argument from you two, but I guess it revolves around TownNuwen not having sufficient confidence to defend me like that? I'd like to know, anyway.Goatrevolt, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1837333#1837333]533[/url] wrote:The defense of Elmo was hyperfocused and completely ignored the equal sized Zazie wagon, yet Nuwen's stated rationale was to avoid lynching a lurker/non-contributor, which should have applied to both.
The point is that, at least in my mind, Nuwen identified some set of behaviour, hypothesised about my alignment and then acted on it. Gurgi's posting didn't seem to be affected by or really reference my alignment. Now, it may be personal bias on his part because we're friends, but I'd nonetheless think an average townie is less likely to defend someone without a read of some kind. It's also notable that Gurgi's comments were more low-key and therefore probably got the best of both worlds, in that it didn't reduce the chance I'd be lynched. So I am having a hard time seeing an objective argument why Nuwen is worse than Gurgi.
Gurgi: You said I was helpful as both alignments. What scum games of mine did you base that on?
SpyreX: Would you go for a Gurgi wagon?Succinctness is pro-town.
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I'm pretty pro-NK speculation. Mostly because it pisses me off when I wail on a scumbag, get killed, and everyone is like "oh WIFOM". Danny, what scum motive does he have?
What does that actually mean? I was town last time. Whilst I agree that my town and scum play look perfectly identical and it's totally fruitless to try and read me, it's no fun when people don't try.Lord Gurgi wrote:None really. I just figured. When I played with you last it didn't seem like anything you said had anything to do with your personal interests.
What is "the rest of the play"? My interpretation was she showed up for the deadline and slouched off again... I don't really see the dislike.SpyreX wrote:The method and timing of jumping to your defense + the rest of the play. I wish I could quantify it better but being on the low end of contribution and then hard-lining on you to drift back into nothingness is blah.Succinctness is pro-town.
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It's sometimes quite useful. I don't think it's hugely useful here, since Patrick is a good kill regardless.
Danny, you don't think this is true enough to be even slightly useful? I really can't see this kind of analysis as intrinsically scummy.Battousai wrote:Less probable that FL, Goat, or Gurgi would want Patrick dead, as a player that has marked you as townie is an asset.
Also, SpyreX: you remember last game, with me and Artem? How the specific defence itself different, apart from her pattern of activity?
vote tdcSuccinctness is pro-town.
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Not really.. I figure everyone else seems at least slightly townish.TDC wrote:Are you the new Fluff, or is there anything behind this?
Oh, oh, I know, I know!SpyreX wrote:I'm not sure why this game is like slogging through molasses.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Restated: Do you think my opinion that everyone else is more townish is undeserved? Do you think I'm incorrect that everyone else is more townish? Do you think my reasoning that if everyone else is more townish than you then I should be voting for you is incorrect?Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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TDC, I think you can comment on whether you agree with my conclusions without knowing the reasoning behind them. Not undeserving would simply mean that you thought it wasn't unreasonable for me to conclude what I did. Incorrect would mean, I suppose, that if you were in my place, you'd come to a different conclusion. I don't think you really answered either.
What bias do you have looking at your own play? Why exactly would your "towniness shine through"? What do you mean by "a weak line of scumhunting", and why's that bad?
Weren't you fairly bloodthirsty for me taking the same stance?forbiddanlight wrote:Nuwen. I really don't know who else at this juncture. Since we have 28 pages of NOTHING.
Battousai, why do you think I'm trying to lynch TDC?Succinctness is pro-town.
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Also, deadline is in like 2 days, 20 hours.
People who don't especially want Nuwen lynched, who would you actually like lynched instead? Who still actually cares who we lynch if it's not them?
Mod: Can you prod Nuwen? Thanks.Succinctness is pro-town.
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I dunno, that's got nothing in common with what I asked you - why the strawman? I asked you if you thought my conclusion was unreasonable, and I asked if you'd come to a different conclusion in my place. My stated conclusion was "everyone else seems at least slightly townish". I really don't think I'm being preposterous here.TDC wrote:Again, how would I EVER come to the conclusion that everyone but me is town? How could I possibly agree? That just makes no sense whatsoever.
Why would scum they be doing a better job than you? Are you more prone to think a behaviour is more townish if you know it comes from town-you, or what effect does the bias actually have? Why would would people randomly "notice you're town"? I mean, how does that work - why would they reasonably draw that conclusion? Why is my attack weak? What is bad about it being a weak attack?Succinctness is pro-town.
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Why? I mean, you've agreed with my reasoning assuming everyone else is slightly townish. I don't see why it's ridiculous.TDC wrote:I'm saying that voting me on the basis that everyone else looks town is ridiculous.
I'm not going to tell you why you should, because I don't think you (necessarily) should. I really don't mind what you think, one way or the other.TDC wrote:I don't think everyone else is town and you're refusing to tell me why I should.
Nuwen is slightly townish for defending me, I think she's at least slightly less likely to do that as scum. Batt is slightly town for gut plus his vote near the end of day 1 plus his recent comments about you. SpyreX is very slightly townish on pure gut... I go back and forth on that. Danny is slightly townish for the frustration. Goat isn't slightly townish, but I don't want to lynch him because he came up with that plan and how it pans out probably reflects on his alignment.
I'm missing something. That doesn't answer the question, and I don't take your point about my play. At maximum I'm slightly right about five people and slightly wrong about three.TDC wrote:No matter what you think about me, but if you think 8 people are slightly townish, scum are playing pretty good no matter what, or you suck as badly as I do.
So you'd guess there's generally a disjoint between your perception of your posts and other people's perception?TDC wrote:I know I'm playing to the best of my ability. Every single post of me screams town, if I read it.
But you notice based on specific things, not posts like "hi im here" or so. It follows you should have some idea what kind of thing is likely to result in people noticing, and then have some idea of whether you've posted it or not.TDC wrote:I sometimes notice people are town. Should work the other way around, too.
Why does that make it weaker, though?TDC wrote:It is weak because it relies on your read on eight other players. I thought that much was obvious.
Why annoying, though? And I don't follow the latter; why is it implausible, and would you seriously prefer I didn't bother at all?TDC wrote:I'm not suggesting it is bad as such. Just annoying and makes me wonder why, if you can't find something at least remotely plausible, you bother at all.Succinctness is pro-town.
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I think I'm obligated toTDC, to Elmo wrote:Curiously, Fluff doesn't seem to be bothered by your lack of suspicion as much as he was by mine.
..?LlamaFluff wrote:Two days untill deadline of D2 is way to far into the game to have that big of a question mark by anyone.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Unless I'm missing something, I still have yet to hear an argument as to why Nuwen's position on me wasn't justified. Why is she less likely to do that as town?
While I think of it, Gurgi dislikes Fluff because he's not trying to dissuade Gurgi from voting him.. I would have thought TDC's response would be earning him town points with Gurgi, but he seems to be somewhat negative towards him. Why, pray?
It's funny because instead of doing little for 10 days and scrambling maniacally when everyone shows up for deadline, we could just have 96 hours deadlines and do comparably well.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Yeah, I was gonnaGoatrevolt wrote:I vaguely recall debating this with Elmo in mafia discussion at some point, though I could be wrong).unvoteat some point soon. I wondered if anyone would jump on it.. I'm not fond of Fluff's move here. Battousai is interesting in the refusal.
Nuwen has posted in GD and been on AIM, I think. Not reading anything into that, personally. Battousai should probably also be on the town list fwiw. The case against Nuwen is interesting... I'm pretty curious why I'm on the list, to be honest.
TDC: I think I have a most a very weak bias when looking at my own play; obviously I have special knowledge about myself that other people don't, but beyond that I don't think so. I think I'm probably slightly scummy all told, but interpretation can swing it around a lot. (There are any number of complicated things to say here, but it's not rly worthwhile I guess.)Succinctness is pro-town.
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Ya, it's just ultra unclear who the non-Nuwen lynch is. We have.. 42 hours?
I think this would probably be good if it's not QFTing Goat.Battousai wrote:The reason I find Nuwen suspicious is her defence of Elmo yesterday. I'll elaborate on it more when Nuwen gets here/I have more time.Succinctness is pro-town.
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I should probably reread it, but: I think if I were to defend someone, I'd throw out whatever arguments might work, including "irrelevant reasoning" that had rhetorical value. I also think that "who are Elmo's partners" is okay in general, although it probably isn't valid in that situation - I don't think you could draw links between anyone and me at that point.
This is the bit that interests me. I think it's quite tough to find a viable non{me,Zazie} target at that point, but I generally agree that defend person X without pushing person Y is a tell. It's just a big unclear how she pushes a Zazie lynch while arguing against people wanting to lurkerlynch me. Occam's razor suggets "Zaz lurked more", but I'm not sure that would have much weight with e.f. Forbidden at the time. I dunno, what's a stronger line to take against Zazie than she did? What do you think about her point in that last sentance of 539? That looked at least a little relevant.Goatrevolt wrote:If her intention was to save you, she would have voted Zazie. If her intention was to stop a lynch on an inactive/lurker, she would have pushed people to vote elsewhere. Neither of those happened.
I guess the thing that gets me is her not voting for Zazie at any point. I did notice that at the time, chalked it up to absence iirc, but it is weird. Enough to make the case interesting and Nuwen not a ultra-horrible lynch, albeit not really one I'm enthusiastic about. This is where I mention rereading and how it never gets done. Yup.
I think I'm slightly scummy because I haven't done anything I'd consider townish, and (around the time when you asked) relatively little obvious effort to acquire reads on people. I think the way I didn't do anything but defend myself and refused to give reads when I might have been lynched Day 1 is more than a little reminiscent of scum not wanting to give anything away in the event they're lynched. There's no particular explanation of why I played the way I did day 1. I think my behaviour towards TDC is null if not slightly scummy... hard to exactly put my finger on why. I'm probably forgetting some stuff, I'm heading to bed soon.
I really don't see how that's true.Goatrevolt wrote:Because you seem to legitimately care about who we lynch, and seem legitimately interested in finding scum.
For all this, I still have a question mark about Gurgi, and to a lesser extent SpyreX. I keep going back and forth on the both of them.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Maybe you can see why I'm unhappy with "Elmo would ___ as town" arguments.Goatrevolt wrote:It boggles the mind.
But I got wagoned yesterday mostly for "not doing anything". I have a clear incentive to look like I'm doing something, which was one of the reasons why I talked to TDC. And I don't think that from the perspective of starting that interchange it holds any particular promise of actually being productive, indeed TDC was/is probably legitimately fed up because it was going nowhere. I don't see how that adds to my town credentials at all.Goatrevolt wrote:you seem to be the only player actively doing anything.
You don't have to think that. Specifically, you don't have to think it's the likeliest explanation; it can be very unlikely for that to be true, but I don't think you'd assert there's a 0% chance it's the reason. Say, 95% of the time when I do that, it's not related to alignment. As long as there's a small chance I did it because I was scum, and it doesn't reflect on my alignment if I didn't do it specifically because I was scum, it should be slightly scummy. (I'm sure you can follow my reasoning.)Goatrevolt wrote:I didn't think your lack of anything end of day 1 was you trying not to tie yourself to scum buddies.
No, in fact I feel the direct opposite applies for some actions (not necessarily mine). I don't see why it stands to reason, though, towns very frequently get it wrong. In fact, given most scumtells are tendencies, you may be able to accurately say I'm scum 90% of the time when I ___, but even that level of correct analysis leads to the wrong conclusion 10% of the time.Goatrevolt wrote:If it wasn't the real rationale behind your actions, then doesn't it stand to reason that we as a town should be able to determine that it wasn't your real reason?
I don't know why you say it's poor. I don't expect you to believe it (?), because you have a different set of views to me; I just think some things are mostly inaccurate. As to self-evaluation, other people's views have followed pretty much exactly what I thought they'd be. You would expect people to be biased towards the truth, so I kind of doubt thinking I'd be slightly scummy to my own eyes (as it were) implies bias. (shrug)Goatrevolt wrote:You're speculating poorly on why you think others should find you scummy and then wondering why I don't believe said speculation?
It'd be fine to postpone this until tomorrow, though. I'll convince my scumbuddies not to kill you.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Llama is staying, right? Coolies. I want to know where Gurgi and Battousai stand on, like, everyone. Also, FL, I think I asked a question or two yesterday? Ta.
vote Lord Gurgiis a good direction, I think..Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo wrote:
Weren't you fairly bloodthirsty for me taking the same stance?forbiddanlight wrote:Nuwen. I really don't know who else at this juncture. Since we have 28 pages of NOTHING.Succinctness is pro-town.
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And this lynch should fit clearly into those two categories? I thought it was dubious at best, but not outright terrible. I did think she was mildly townish, and I said so at the time. If you would have liked me to do one or the other, then you should have talked to me at the time and we could have discussed it, instead of you informing me of your preferences well past the point where I can do anything about it.Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:If you thought the Nuwen lynch was a good one then you should've been behind it and voting, if you thought it was a bad lynch then you should've been voting someone else trying to push your own candidate or find a viable alternative.
And I amnotgoing to defend Nuwen, either directly or indirectly by pushing a counter-wagon for the purposes of a counter-wagon, without a reasonably strong town read on her.Succinctness is pro-town.
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It is neither simple nor true that a single person is scummiest to me, because a group of people may be, and were.Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:If Nuwen wasn't scummiest to you then someone else was, it's a simple and truthful binary equation.
Agreed. Therefore..?Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:And you showed either no confidence or interest in pushing a wagon for information or attempting to get them lynched based on your read.
You said that you find not voting at the end of the day scummy; I don't agree. You said you thought I'd be more likely to argue with Goatrevolt if I was scum. I don't know the truth of that.Battousai wrote:Well, you haven't reacted to my vote or claims. I want your opinion on what I said.
I don't even agree that it's true, much less that it's obvious. Why is it true?Battousai wrote:It shouldn't have to be discussed. Do you tell every player, 'Make sure to scumhunt'? No. Because they should already know.
Assuming that I should "just know" to do stuff is a great way to end up in this situation - you think I should have done it, I don't, and somehow I have done something wrong, despite having no way of knowing what you wanted me to do. If you wanted me to do it, and I was not doing it at the time, why do you wait until this point to say anything?Succinctness is pro-town.
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Yes, I should have done that previously. I guess I haven't got a lot out of it, I only voted you because I wanted to have a vote out and I'm slightly paranoid about the idea of people buddying up to me; I think you're a bit more townish than I used to, though I guess I can't really justify that. I didn't have a plan beyond "see what happens", really. I don't think it's rude, and I think it's fine to be a bit rude if you feel the game demands it, regardless of who it is
As to LlamaFluff, the way people defend themselves varies. Some people think it's pro-town to let the wagons happen in hopes of drawing out more info, some people think it's anti-town to have any votes on a townie. I mostly side with the former, but the latter makes sense, especially with a certain playstyle. I guess the thing that interests me was the point early on, that he disliked the setup discussion (as did I) but didn't really try to spark discussion.. I guess I'm WIFOMing myself about that more than I did previously. It's hard to tell the difference between simply not trying and wanting to, but not finding a viable way to make an attempt. That said, I probably should have wagon'd LF before.
unvote, vote LlamaFluff- wherefore art thou, anyhow?
As to Danny, I honestly can't remember where or why you suspected him. I should probably mention that I don't want to lynch forbiddanlight, but I'm not at all convinced she's town on the basis of e.g. 807.
I can't help being a little curious, but maybe it'd be better for everyone to just leave it alone?Lord Gurgi wrote:I'm practically certain that Elmo is townSuccinctness is pro-town.
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I thought the defining feature of a policy lynch was lynching to a policy (e.g. lynch all self-voters) as opposed to lynching because they're scummy.
Battousai, for TDC specifically, amortized over all possible games it might be scummy, but why is it scummy inthisgame? Who should he have voted?Succinctness is pro-town.
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I disagree, but I don't really want a theory debate, although I'm willing if you insist. The default reason for lynching is because ___ is scummy, so stating another reason (policy) implies it isn't that, to me, and a fair number of people will support policy lynches without asserting they're more likely to hit scum.
Battousai, how do you know that he is not trying to find scum?Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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SpyreX, why do you want to hammer?
Llama, can you give any reasoning behind any of the reads? Like, one of LG and TDC being scum. I just want to hear what you're thinking, really.
GoatRevolt could easily be scum here and tbh the people who seem to believe otherwise scare me. I figured I'd say that since no-one is talking much about him. (Honestly, I'm reconsidering my conspiracy theory from Day 1 with Goat + FLight as scum while telling myself it makes no sense.)
This is irritating because I have like one single tiny towntell on most people and I'm chasing my tail trying to decide which to follow. I should really have checked in earlier and decided what to do, I think it's fairly inevitable that fluffy gets lynched at this point. Derp.Succinctness is pro-town.
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I meant exactly what I said, that you could easily be scum, not that I have any particular reason to think that you are. People like SpyreX are discounting the possibility, and I don't like that. I'm not attacking you, justGoatrevolt wrote:Anyone could be scum. Do you have reason to believe I'm scum?
- it's too damn easy for one person to look helpful and slip through
How exactly would I be setting you up?Goatrevolt wrote:I really don't like you pushing to try to get people away from reading me as town while likewise not actually presenting any points against me yourself. It feels like I'm being set up.
I don't see how. It's irritating because my read on him isn't significantly different from my read on most other people, my original vote was bandwagoning, and I meant to check in between then and now but I don't think I did.Goatrevolt wrote:This reads as your disappointment in LlamaFluff being the likely lynch. This is a bit interesting considering your current vote on LlamaFluff...
I'm also not a fan of how the wagon's going; I actually considering unvoting and voting SpyreX in that post, but like I said, it looked/looks fairly inevitable, though, so meh.
I told you soGoatrevolt wrote:I'm really second guessing my earlier town call on Elmo.Succinctness is pro-town.
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Yay for posting without previewing. I'm not attacking you, I'm just wary of the fact that people who are active, make sense and post a fair amount tend to not to be examined in any great detail - it's too easy for one person to look helpful and slip through without anyone seriously thinking about whether they're scum. And you've done basically nothing that I think you wouldn't do as scum, probably nothing that I think anyone competent wouldn't do as scum.
Why am I "mighty interested"? I think I said pretty much one sentence in one post, thus far.Goatrevolt wrote:Elmo, you seem mighty interested in removing the idea that I'm town from everyone's mindSuccinctness is pro-town.
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No, I don't, it's what I said it was.Goatrevolt wrote:You don't see how that post reads as you expressing disappointment with the LlamaFluff lynch?
I thought he was on four, and I don't/didn't expect anyone to show up and care before deadline. Shrug.Goatrevolt wrote:No, this is not an excuse. If you unvote, TDC and Fluff will be tied in votes. If you voted SpyreX he would also be tied in votes. I refuse to accept this as valid.
I asked him why he thought you were town. I wanted to know if he had a decent reason. How is asking someone "Why is __ townish" anything to do with trying to remove that idea from their mind?Elmo wrote:You pushed SpyreX on it earlier today, and then brought it up again today. Looking at how many relevant posts you've made today, it's been a fairly prevalent topic for you.
Gurgi: I don't have any convincing reasons to think Fluff is town.
Battousai: I didn't claim it was inevitable, I said it looked/looks inevitable. I didn't think enough people would shift their viewpoints away from Llama.Succinctness is pro-town.
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