Mini 914 ~ Mafia Reverberation (Game Over!)

[Rhinox]

I

/confirm

that I have not yet read the thread, the rules, or even my role, but I am back from V/LA and I will be getting to that shortly.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox, do you think Juls used appeal to emotion on her random vote?

I don't really see how a random vote can be an appeal to emotion.

The votecounts are dreadfully missing a splash of

YELLOW

, so thats where I'll fit in.

When did this whole hydra thing start? I go away for a few months and now they're everywhere. I thought they were only going to be utilized in that one theme game.

Anyone find it odd porkens is playing the newbcard when he's not a newb?

Just my initial thoughts so far. Need to get my head back on the ground before really getting into things.

[Rhinox]

-No Decision-

Rhinox

unacceptable. Absolutely UNacceptable.

incant: porkens

its the best I've got right now. Whether or not he really is a newb, theres really no reason to pull out the newb card pre-emptively before he'd even done anything to warrant needing the newb card. Its like he's pre-emptively defending himself. I admit I haven't investigated everyone yet, but I've caught scum doing this before.

p.s. what was wrong with

YELLOW

? I can't read the gold well on mafSepia, but the yellow looked just fine...

[Rhinox]

That was quick. Did you pick it up by his first post or his second?

Both actually.

I suppose I can't blame you for suspecting me since I haven't until now been able to give 100% to this (or any of my other ongoings) game this week. But I can't see how you can call me scum based on meta, when I've barely begun playing. Can you elaborate on your read on me? What have I done that you've seen me do as scum -or- what have I not done that you've seen me do as town? Also, if I'm scum, why are you voting spy?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox is scum because I find his town converation to be natural and flow in a normal manner. When he is scum, his interactions feel forced.

So what about my posts seems forced to you?

My newbcards were fair warning, I'm...obvoiusly not a real noob, but w/e.

fair warning for... what exactly if your not a real noob?

Spy, is your double vote passive or active? I.E. do you always double vote, or can you control both votes independantly, change them whenever you like, and apply them to different players?

[Rhinox]

I'm excited to play in this game.

This was over a week ago. Unless he was excited about playing the lurker, he needs to come in and explain himself.

How about a vote then?

^This goes for everyone else. I'm pretty certain zoraster is intentionally lurking and should be greeted upon his return with a hearty wagon.

What makes you certain zoraster is intentionally lurking as of your post.

Sorry, guys. I'll be in to read the game and start participating. Busy-ness and the site being horrible made it hard to keep up with my modded games much less played ones. It seems better now, so I should be able to contribute in a much better way. Expect a post by the end of the day or you have my permission (like you need it) to call me names.

As if on cue. Now it really does look like you're intentionally lurking. You don't post for a week, but miraculously show up as soon as you're suspected for lurking? suspicious...

[Rhinox]

To clarify, to the people who "need to take more solid stances" -- Tell me who the scum are, and who the town are. You might have made some pokes at people, but if you're scum, that won't help us to find your buddies.

I'm scum hunting. It doesn't make sense for a hunter amidst his prey to shout out what his weapons and bait are, and where he will and won't be hunting. In other words, I do not do scum lists or town lists, as I believe they take away scum hunting opportunities. A vote is a solid stance, and you should be able to stances from my comments, not from "X is town/Y is scum". The more sure I get of finding scum, the stronger my stances become. Besides, its D1. Nobody is town but me.

In the meantime, you have to start somewhere, and throwin' a little mud around isn't a bad way to do it. Which one of Porkens, zoraster, or VP are you tarChainsaw defending, btw?

And for the record, I don't believe I was flinging mud at VP. I asked a question and he answered. And I missed the prod request from Jahudo about zoraster. All I saw was VP calling for a wagon on zor and Zor then magically appearing 20 minutes later via the timestamps.


Also for the record, I'm not sure I can fully support any intentional multilynch plans especially during the equivalence of D1. D1s are typically crapshoots as far as useable evidence goes. Most D1 talk only becomes especially interesting AFTER a flip. Lynching 1 at a time allows for wagon analysis and role information to come into play. Even if we're deadlocked between 2 players today, I think we'd gain more information by encouraging the players involved to take a stand to purge one player before deadline rather than allowing the deadline to purge both of them. Similar to how if a lynch is determined by a deadline in a normal game, the wagon analysis becomes less meaningful.

Just my 2 cents. There may be situations where multilynching is beneficial, but for the most part, multilynching means the lynches are made with only the current level of "information", while progressive lynching inherantly means each lynch will be made based on more information. I.E. Maybe I want to lynch both X and Z today, but if either or neither gets lycnhed today, information might change and I'd want to lynch neither tomorrow.


@Nacho: I'm displeased with your entrance to the game. No thoughts on other players besides Zor? Is MO your scum partner?

[Rhinox]

You want information, but seem to feel it can only be derived from wagon analysis. I think it can be derived from scum lists. I'll grant that information is incomplete before there are any flips. But saying "I support purging X and Y today" if we will be purging two people is approxiamately equally as useful as maintaining a vote for both X and Y. Yes, there's the potential that the person will fail to follow through and use their vote at the last minute to allow either X or Y to survive. But then we know the person is scum, probably along with the person they saved.

I don't feel information can only be derived from wagon analysis. Some forms of information gathering are mutually exclusive. Just because I said one way would create more/better information than another way IMO does not mean I do not feel the other way would not create information. I simply prefer one way over the other because I feel IMO it would be better.

Your hypothetical scenario would never happen by the way. It is no more likely than "scum quick hammering on day 1" or any of the other stupid things people claim scum would do but in reality they never ever do. And even if they did, WIFOM would dictate that we can't use it as a tell, unless we just policy lynch.

I don't think any of Porkens, zoraster, or VP has earned a defense from me so far. But if I was chainsawing for them, you'd be a poor choice of target. You're not seriously pursuing any of them, just making low-key comments -- which is what I find suspicious about you.

I was going for the "provocative comments meant to invoke responses". Entirely the opposite of low-key. I can't help it if my prey aren't taking the bait

[Rhinox]

@Nacho: I'm displeased with your entrance to the game. No thoughts on other players besides Zor? Is MO your scum partner?

I apologize for not coming into the game with a BANG, Rhinox. However, I'd advise you to examine your own posting before looking at mine. This is the first post you've made with content, and you haven't replaced into the game 2 days ago...

My activity has nothing to do with it. I think it is scummy that you jumped into the game and hopped on (one of) the popular wagon without even a consideration of anyone else, or sufficiently supporting your vote, IMO. Trying to completely smokescreen that point by calling into question my contributions to the game is even scummier.

incant: Nachomamma

I also don't like your position on multi-lynching. The only reason you give against it is "we lose wagon analysis". You failed to realize that scum would be forced to actually DEFEND their scumpartner, instead of raising an alternative wagon on a townie. Also, we'd still join the wagon we felt strongest about by INCANTING or vocalizing about it. So, if we felt better about Wagon B and Wagon A was scum, and Wagon B was town, hey! there's something to analyze, right?

Is this part of the reason you would support my lynch?

Either way, the quoted comments are a complete misrep. Here is the complete list of reasons I touched on in this post:
1)Flips give new perspective on information. A flip today makes tomorrow's lynch choice better.
2)Wagon analysis allows for finding scum based on voting patterns, a tool that loses effect if we start multi-lynching.
3)Role information: roles that can only act once per incantation would benefit from having more days to act. Multilynching will cut down on the number of incantation periods in the game, reducing the effect of the PRs.
4)Progressively lynching means that the next lynch will always be made with more info than the previous lynch. Mass lynching means all the lynches are made with the current level of information.

And a couple other reasons I didn't explicitly state before: 5)Multi-lynching will speed up the game. Faster game equals less information equals expidited scum victory, IMO.
6)Multi-lynching may have some upsides, but it also has a huge downside, such as purging multiple townies and no scum all at once. Theres no downside to progressive lynching. Its tried and true.

The only information thats been given to support multilynches have been a couple of specific examples where scum could be found. I look at it this way. If you're playing hold'em and you're dealt 7-3 off suit, in general, the best play is to fold. Just because there is a possibility we could flop a straight and win does not mean we should play 7-3 off-suit.

[Rhinox]

zoraster (P-5) ~ Jazzmyn, Mighty Orbots, VP Baltar, Nachomamma8
Sotty7 (P-5) ~ SerialClergyman, SpyreX, -INCANT-, Jahudo

for reference. I say that Herod votes zora, Rhinox votes sotty, and they crossvote eachother. Then we only have to wait like 9 more days, right?

So.... I'm scum, and your incanting me, but you want to lynch sotty and zor both? WTF?

[Rhinox]

I don't support any plan that includes lynching Zor today. He's seeming town.

I'm still thinking a porkens or nacho lynch are better than sotty as well.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox seems to be staying away from the “big” things. He avoids commenting on my wagon until his last post and spends a lot of his big posts talking about multi lynches instead of actually... Oh I don't know, scum hunting? Rhinox, if you think Zora is likely town do you get any scum reads from the people on his wagon? What do you think of Serial's lurking?

What big things am I staying away from? I don't understand this accusation. I'm indifferent on your lynch. I don't feel strongly for or against it. I'd rather explore other areas, like porkens and nacho, rather than commenting on a case I'm indifferent on at the moment.

Nacho is currently voting Zor, and I'm currently voting Nacho, so that should answer your second question.

What makes you think I'm not scum hunting? Accusations like these need to be backed up with evidence. Otherwise its just a Buzzword Accusation (TM).

I don't know about Serial's lurking and haven't really looked into him enough. He's under my radar at the moment.

This is also a head scratcher. Why did you think Hero was chainsaw defending one of those people? I don't see it.

At the time, I was voting porkens, asked VP a question, and threw an accusation at zor to see how he would respond. Hero made mention of all 3 of those instances and accused me of throwing mud around. My "Chainsaw defending" comment was a tongue-in-cheek way of accusing Hero of being scum partner with one of porkens, zor, or VP.

mod: why was jazzmyn allowed to unvote?

Porkens needs to come back and explain why he's voting me if he wants to purge both Sotty and Zor, and Nacho needs to come back so we can discuss the points I brought up in this post. I'm kinda in purgatory right now because my top 2 suspects are MIA.

[Rhinox]

oh... right...

[Rhinox]

What big things am I staying away from? I don't understand this accusation. I'm indifferent on your lynch. I don't feel strongly for or against it. I'd rather explore other areas, like porkens and nacho, rather than commenting on a case I'm indifferent on at the moment.

It was clear my wagon has been the one with the most attention in this game so far. Yet you don't comment on it until your tenth post, not even to say you weren't feeling it. That's you avoiding the big things.

er, thats only 1 thing. not exactly a trend. >_>

Anyways, ok then. So I didn't comment on your wagon until post 10, and when I did (before I was prompted) I said I prefered other lynches (aka indifferent). Thats scummy because...?

What makes you think I'm not scum hunting? Accusations like these need to be backed up with evidence. Otherwise its just a Buzzword Accusation (TM)

Because most of your content has been about game mechanics and I don't see how talking about that is going to help us find scum.

And the rest of my comments? Did you read those? Just because some of my comments were on game mechanics does not translate to ZOMG not scum hunting!!! I've done more scum hunting than talking about mechanics btw...

Mod: do porkens or nacho need prodding? *lends a finger*

[Rhinox]

Also I find Rhinox's obliviousness to Nacho's V/LA status kind of suspect. Your focusing on him and don't even know he's been on mod-acknowledge V/LA?
Rhinox, Why are you still trying to prod him?

I completely missed it, and didn't even realize it until he was temporarily replaced on this page. I blame it on the orange text blending into the mafSepia background. And probably because I was too busy rofling over Vi's modkill of crymeariver.

But why is that suspect? Is it pro-scum to pretend to be oblivious to a V/LA?

@Sotty: I feel like your trying to fabricate something. I commented on your wagon and spoke out against it, before being prompted, by saying I preferred others. Does that sound like I was waiting to hop on your wagon if it took off?

I'm also still waiting to hear about those other big thing

S

you claimed I was avoiding mentioning.

@porkens: why so apathetic? do you really think all 3 of sotty, SC, and zor are scum together? because I just can't see sotty and SC being scum together.

Since nacho isn't around to answer my questions, he'll have to wait until he returns.

incant: porkens

[Rhinox]

Sorry everyone, I've had a busy week at work and have fallen a little behind. I should be able to catch up tonight/this weekend. Posting this in all my games.

[Rhinox]

Responding to Jahudo for now. More later.

How important is finding scum pairings in your reads today? Isn't it possible for two people to be scummy and in different factions?

Meh, I'm not really looking for pairings today, and I don't think about multiple factions until there is evidence that supports it. I don't think SC and sotty can BOTH be on the same faction though. If we're talking multiple factions, I suppose they could be on different mafia teams, but I doubt one would be an sk - I think if there is an sk, it would be porkens.

And what is your actually take on zoraster?

The first quote of mine was when I didn't realize he was prodded. His posts led me to the conclusion in the second quote of mine because he was being active, and I only suspected him before for possibly lurking. Looking back now I see that the only scum hunting zor has done was his 6 points in his iso3. Everything else has pretty much been game theory. I'm suspicious of his V/LA, if he is indeed V/LA, only because he's modding a large parallel universe game at the moment, and he's active in his modding duties over there. So I guess I wouldn't feel bad about seeing him purged today, but I feel porkens or nacho are scummier.

How can this displease you if you think it's important to withhold your town reads? It took you 5 posts to suspect someone other than porkens.

I didn't like that Nacho's first post in the game was basically a "me too" hop on to one of the popular bandwagons. It would have been different if he contibuted something new. When I questioned him about it, instead of responding to the point I made, he ignored it and instead attacked my activity. Thats about the scummiest individual comment I've seen so far in the game.

Rhinox, at this moment which purge you do prefer: porkens or nikanor?

My vote is on porkens, so that is your answer. Overall, I don't like porkens' apathy and willingness to lynch anybody without really giving reasons. nikanor is an improvement over nacho in terms of activity, and at least seems to be scum hunting. What I don't like is his appeal to his scum hunting history in order to support his cases, i.e. "I've only ever called people scum like this 4 other times and they were scum then so they're scum now". If his cases were strong, he wouldn't need his scum hunting history to support them. Its not enough for me to want to see him purged though - I'd rather let nacho return so I can actually get some answers to the questions I asked.

[Rhinox]

I'm really rather upset about my inactivity in this and all my games right now.

Since it appears I'm on the chopping block to be purged, I'm just going to claim...

I gave hero moychendise. I had 4 different moychendises to choose from, so I can confirm which I gave to hero if need be to confirm my role at least to hero. I wasn't told what the effects would be, if any. I was playing as if the moychendise could either grant abilities or have negative effects like role blocking or killing, so I chose to give the moychendise to a player I wasn't really sure about.

So there you go. If I live long enough, hopefully I'll get around to responding to anything directed towards me.

I still think we should purge porkens.

[Rhinox]

No, I am town aligned, not 3rd party. I have the Marketing (A) ability only.

[Rhinox]

I don't know if I can prove that I'm not 3rd party, but if you consider what events need to happen in order for a moychendiser wincon to be attained along with the fact that I've now claimed and that my targets (and thus everyone) knows who has moychendise at any given time, you'll see that its pretty much impossible for me as a hypo-3rd party to attain a wincon. For example, the town can force me to stop handing out moychendise at any time by threatening to lynch me if I continue. Only confusing scenario would be is if there are others or a real moychendiser out there who also have the marketing ability. So the town really has nothing to lose by leaving me alive at this point.

Seondly, even if I were 3rd party, I would still need to scum hunt, because although a moychendiser needs scum alive with moychendise in order to attain a win con, the moychendiser can not allow scum to achieve their wincon and end the game before the moychendiser has enough time to pass out enough moychendise to enough players.

Rhinox, do you have any more to say about why you chose me?

Well, like I said, I wasn't sure what effect the items would have. I wasn't really sure about you at the time, so it really wouldn't have bothered me if it killed you. Also, since you said players should claim if they received moychendise, I figured it would be a test of your honesty, as well as letting the town know that you received something that could potentially be used against the town if you're scum. I also thought that it didn't seem likely you would be lynched, so if you received something that can help the town, you should live long enough to be able to use it.

I'm debating whether or not you should tell us if the item had no effect. If there was no effect whatsoever, I would have to consider simply stoppping passing out moychendise now since continuing would only add to the fears that I am some dangerous 3rd part.

@Rhinox: Why did you give Moychendise out on Day 1? The Moychendiser wins when everyone has a piece of moychendise, whether he gives it out or not. In addition, you don't really know what you're doing in giving out the moychendise, so your basically just making the moychendiser's job easier...

I actually did not consider that a real moychendiser might exist in addition to me with the marketing (A) ability. But no worries about that now, until/unless others start showing up with moychendise not given to them by me. should be very easy to figure out.

Nacho makes a good point. Why help out a potential moychandaiser? Why give Hero an ability they may or may not be good for town? Neither seems like good reasons to use the power.

If I haven't answered these two points sufficiently in this post already, let me know and I'll give it another shot. Regardless, what point are you trying to make here? I can see 2 different possibilities.

[Rhinox]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

[Rhinox]

Oh hey, I called two of three scum! Not too shabby.
Great game, Vi! It was far too short.

I hate you by the way...

Spaceballs: The Best Of gives the recipient an avatar of Yogurt. Wearing it is compulsory. Seriously. Refusing to wear it will force a modkill.

muahahahah! awesome. I totally picked the best moychendise to give.

Sorry you had to get stuck in that position jazz.

D1 I wasn't supposed to get lynched. I was stalking the thread and trying to count votes to find out when I could place a hammer vote and prevent a triple purge (one of which being me). I could have had a chance at playing it off as me being against a triple purge as I stated all game. Maybe it gets me killed the next day, or maybe I vote sotty to purge her, she decides to kill SC instead of MO, and MO continues bussing me the next day and doesn't get vigged the next night.

But as I was stalking the thread and counting votes, I read the post from vi where voting was closed. So I completely dropped the ball there. Still thought MO was going to come out looking pretty good the next day tho, but man... multi purging... For a little while, it almost seemed like 3 townies were going to get purged D1. That would have changed things big time. If there were no multipurges, theres no way I get lynched after my claim. But, since there are multipurges, might as well purge the possible third party as well even though theres no way he could win as that role once he claimed - all you had to do was tell me to stop handing out moychendise and I'm no threat to the town as hypo 3rd party.


bah... really. Maybe I could have been a little more active, but it seemed like every time I turned around, someone was calling me scum for no apparent reason. I was gone for a long weekend and this and one other game starts up while I'm gone, and I never really got caught up in either.

I think I've decided that I absolutely suck at being scum, and my first game on the site was a fluke. I can't remember if I've won a game as scum since, but I don't think so.

Anyways... great game Vi as always. Great flavor. I love being an olympic event now . I hope my performance in this game doesn't get me blacklisted from future game invites...

[Rhinox]

bte, I kept meaning to ask...

Jahudo, is the cute puppy in your avatar yours? Do I need to bring my puppy avatar back so others can vote on who's is cuter?

[Rhinox]

EBWOP: should be btw, not bte