Mini 957 - Everyone's a Hero Mafia - Game Over

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote: Doombunny

I don't think self voting is scummy but trying to act like it is is scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

because of the way you are arguing back and forth. To restate my opinion, activity is not a town tell, non-activity is not a scum tell, but trying to avoid the spotlight is a scum tell.

Is trying to not avoid the spotlight a town tell though?

I don't think self voting is scummy but trying to act like it is is scummy.

I also cited the self-vote as a reason to solidify my vote - what is it about the way Doombunny did it that makes you vote him, and what is it about the way I did it that doesn't even deserve mention?

You had a more lengthy reasoning for your stance. The player I voted on seemed more abrasive.

[MonkeyMan576]

TL:DR

First I assault Snow_Bunny to answer her question and point out how she didn't answer mine. I believe weak cases are normal and needed in RVS due to lack of current information and that she is still the scummiest player here.
Second, I ask MonkeyMan to explain the abrasiveness and why it was scummy.
Third I nerd out with esuriospiritus, request that a scumtell is actually said out loud, and discuss the game mechanics a bit

===============================================

@Thor: Why do you find selfvoting, specially as a rv, scummy?

During the RVS stage the level of what I consider a scumtell is shifted. Basically - because there is so little information to go on even a minor scumtell becomes worthy of being a full borne case. Therefore, even a minor scummy thing becomes the qualifier for the whole case, and indeed, it is obligated to be so because it's impossible to build a longer case.

As to specifically why I'm voting you for this, please consider this question; What is the pro town advantage of self-voting? If you cannot answer that question then there is no reason for town to self vote ergo you are not town (because all town automatically play a perfect game, naturally).

You also dodged/missed all my questions to you from page 1, I'll restate the single question that all of the little questions I asked really are probing at; please explain to me why it is scummy to try to end the RVS quickly.

If you cannot do this then that also shows that your follow up vote on me is more akin to OMGUS then it is to actually scumhunting and it also shows that my vote on you is even more justified.

You had a more lengthy reasoning for your stance. The player I voted on seemed more abrasive.

Fair enough. Why do you think his abrasiveness was scummy?

Hmm. I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

I don't get the Stargate reference but I have you here, if it makes you feel better.

Also, thank you for having read that article. This is now my second game (both ongoing) where I've been using some of this mindset and I find it ends the RVS very quickly. I'm not sure if it's helping me catch scum yet, but I suppose that will take longer to assess.

However, post 17 is way scummier than her self-vote imo, so she gets a vote from me anyway.

Would you like to say why you find it scummy? It cannot just be her anti-ending the RVS stance since multiple posters have taken that thus far, so something else is bugging you here, what is it?

Based on this I am guessing there is going to be a lot less bussing than usual.

Except, of course, there are the Public Deeds which allow both Heroes and Villains to gain Hero and Villain points each night. I'm not saying you're wrong about the bussing thought, but this is certainly a modifier to that belief.

Abrasiveness without reasoning seems like an unwillingness to want to work with the town and having a go-out-on-your-own attitude, which is anti-town.

[MonkeyMan576]

The whole "self voting is scummy" idea is just silly. It's been done so many times in so many games that there's no way scum would do it to try and thwart the town. It just brings to much attention, and usually scum don't like a lot of attention. It's a null tell at best, and possibly a town tell.

[MonkeyMan576]

No. Bad. BAD MONKEY. See, let's try replacing another common tell in for this and look at the logic again:

"The whole "AtE is scummy" idea is just silly. It's been done so many times in so many games that there's no way scum would do it to try and thwart the town. It just brings too much attention, and usually scum don't like a lot of attention. It's a null tell at best, and possibly a town tell."

Do you see how bad this logic is now? Do you really want to let scum get away with things just because it brought them attention, so if they were scum they must not have wanted to do it and therefore it's possibly even a town tell?

(On kind of a side note, assuming scum don't like attention is too much of a generalization, too. I've played with a few people before that fucking THRIVE on attention, positive or negative, town or scum. Assumptions, while not scummy, are generally a bad idea to have in this game.)

A few people thrive on it, therefore it's a bad generalization? I never said it's a law, just a rule. If there's a scum that does like attention, it's an exception. I'm not saying it's impossible that SB is scum, just that I wouldn't base a vote on the theory that self voting is scummy because in general I don't believe it.

[MonkeyMan576]

Abrasiveness without reasoning seems like an unwillingness to want to work with the town

"seems like" is such a wishy-washy way of wording that. Is it actually correlative, or isn't it?

I'm sure there's no scientific correlation, but in my experience that's the case.

[MonkeyMan576]

1) I already answered this. Please read before posting. kthnk. But, if by any chance you missed that, I'll tell you again: because scum doesn't want spotlight so early on. Town really shouldn't care as much as scum. And thus, it's a town-tell at best.

No, you haven't answered this. You answered why you think why its not scummy but you never said why it's town to self vote. being in the spotlight may not equal scum but it doesn't equal town either. Besides, if it was town to self vote in the RVS wouldn't everyone self vote thus making it null?

This is horrible logic. You're basically saying that for something to be a town tell, everyone has to do it. As someone once said, "common sense isn't so common". Also, not everyone plays mafia at the same skill level, and not everyone uses the same tactics.

It's fine if you don't like self votes, but using poor logic to try and incriminate someone is not pro-town.

[MonkeyMan576]

Riceball- erm... what? asking mod a question is scummy now?

This is horrible logic. You're basically saying that for something to be a town tell, everyone has to do it. As someone once said, "common sense isn't so common". Also, not everyone plays mafia at the same skill level, and not everyone uses the same tactics.

That was not the point I was trying to make there. The first part of my post was to say "No, you didn't answer the question" and the second part was to show how her statement was WIFOM. Even if not everyone knows that self-voting is "town" (we're pretending its townish here), scum can do it just as easily. Self voting wouldn't hurt them so if they'd get town points out of it, I'm pretty sure they'd go for it.

You could just as easily say if everyone knew using good logic was town, everyone would use good logic. The point is everyone doesn't self vote, but the fact that everyone doesn't do it doesn't make it scummy. But it is generally true that scum prefer to lurk rather than bring attention to themselves.

[MonkeyMan576]

VOTE:Timeater

Obviously fishing to see if he can do heroic things without being caught. (Post 90)

He could just as easily be asking about the villainous public deeds. This is a really weird accusation.

This whole 'scum don't want the spotlight' thing is bizarre too. Some scum get really gung-ho in the thread, get lots of town cred, and end up controlling the flow of the game. I'd say willingness to be in the spotlight is player-based, not alignment-based.

I think generally if you have two players one who is hyber-lurking and one player who is hyper-active, more often than not the lurker will be scum. There are players that like to be active as scum, but this isn't the norm in my experience.

[MonkeyMan576]

That's a good point, asking a mod a question is a poor reason for voting someone.

Unvote:
Vote: Riceballtail

That's L-3 I think

[MonkeyMan576]

@MonkeyMan - you cite your current vote on Riceballtail as her having a poor reason to vote someone (modfishing)

Your previous vote was on Doombunny for pretty much the same thing (claiming self vote = scummy) Yet currently Doombunny is also voting for Riceballtail for the exact same reason.

1. What makes this particular bad reason to vote scummier then Doombunny's bad reason to vote?

2. How do you feel about voting the same way as Doombunny considering your earlier reason to vote for him?

1. The Doombunny wagon was pretty much a difference of theory opinion. There's arguments on both sides. I think Riceballtail's vote is worse.

2. I don't usually base my votes by how others are voting, unless there's a clear indication of alignment. At this point while I find Doombunny's wagon on Snowbunny to be flawed, him being on the Riceballtail wagon gives him some slight town points in my book, although he could just be wagon hopping.

[MonkeyMan576]

1. The Doombunny wagon was pretty much a difference of theory opinion. There's arguments on both sides. I think Riceballtail's vote is worse.

Yet you are voting Riceballtail for voting on a scumtell that you disagree with.
You voted Doombunny for voting on a scumtell you disagree with.

It seems odd to claim there are two sides to Doombunny's scumtell but that Riceballtail's scumtell is not a difference in theory. What am I missing here?

There's just less reasoning on the riceballtail wagon. There's never been any precedent to suggest that asking for a clarification from the mod is scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

EBWOP: Less reaoning on RBT's part...

[MonkeyMan576]

Also this Riceballtail thing seems a little blown out of proportion to me. The most recent post from Riceballtail makes sense and explains the vote fairly well.

People piled on the votes a little too quickly.

Agree with this, and I'm willing to chalk it up to impatience, but something doesn't seem quite right here.

I was taken aback by RBT's nonsensical arguments, and she does seem outright lazy and blatant, but we still have button and bunny in the mix. Are they so easily ignored for the quick lynch on RBT? It seems too convenient.

@SOG

As for your question, I reserve it as my right as a player to ask a mod whatever the hell I want. The rules were unclear, so I sought to clarify them. I gained knowledge.

I don't think anyone every said anything about a quick lynch. Players should be voting for who they think is the scummiest, and RBT is far from L-1.

[MonkeyMan576]

Should be interesting to see who gets on this wagon versus who said earlier lurking wasn't scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

which wagon?

The pman wagon, obviously.

[MonkeyMan576]

Can we just lynch button already I'm getting impatient.

I'd be happy to lynch someone if it's Timeater. Quicklynching is scummy as heck.

Unvote:
Vote: Timeater

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote:
Vote: Pman

That should be a lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, it has to do with my role. I'm town, but making sure I'm not the day 1 lynch is benefitial to me:).

[MonkeyMan576]

You know I lynched scum right? Why would I hammer my teammate?

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not sure what you want me to say. I misread my role pm. It turned out for the best though.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'll say what it was I misread, but not my role. I have a seperate win condition that involves finding a specific player. I asked about it to the mod earlier, and he said it was a normal night action, so I thought I just had to survive the first night. It turned out I have to target a specific role.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'll say what it was I misread, but not my role. I have a seperate win condition that involves finding a specific player. I asked about it to the mod earlier, and he said it was a normal night action, so I thought I just had to survive the first night. It turned out I have to target a specific role.

So you're a lyncher.

No, I'm not a lyncher. My win condition is to "find" someone and "profess my love" to them. Not kill them.

And I don't respond to threats. One person doesn't have the power to kill me(unless they're a vig), and insinuating that they do is quite scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

Does searching/professing take points? If so how many and how many did you start with? Can you win with town? Can you win while dead?

Basically full claim, enough with this peicemail stuff.

Obvrolefishing is obvious.

You do realize that you asked for a full claim as well which includes all of this you claim as obvrolefishing.

And now so am I. Full claim please Monkey. If you win does the game end or do we go on? What happens to you if the person you are trying to find dies before you find them? Do you stay in the game able/unable to win?

Obviously the game does not end if I win. If the person I am trying to find dies then I win with the town, just as I do if they are alive and I do not find them.

[MonkeyMan576]

Who did you target for this ability, then?

Doombunny.

[MonkeyMan576]

@MonkeyMan576
Did using your ability on Doombunny kill him?

No.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Monkey - out of curiosity, you're at L-1 and have already claimed that you targeted one of the NKs of the Night Phase and that your previously stated reason for a hammer vote was incorrect because you misread your role PM. Is there a pro-town reason that you're avoiding calls for a fullclaim or name claim at this particular juncture?

Also, you still haven't addressed my question of why you dropped the hammer like you did when you had previously discussed quicklynching as scummy.

If I name claim it won't be enough and people will just want a full claim, and a full claim would not help the town. I have multiple powers, and would not mind claiming, say, one of my powers, but I am trying not to put the town in a vulnerable position.

[MonkeyMan576]

I haven't said anything untruthful, and that can be proven with or without my lynch. I have powers that can be proven, I just don't think they should be revealed. I would be willing to claim one or two of my powers, I just don't think I should make a FULL claim, it would just make me too likely a NK target.

[MonkeyMan576]

Fine, I'm Fury Leika.

[MonkeyMan576]

She was suddenly filled with the "overwhelming desire to destroy every man" until she could find Ira.

http://drhorrible.wikia.com/wiki/Fury_Leika

Sounds more like an SK-until-finding-certain-role kind of thing to me, which would explain Doombunny's death. I do think Monkey is telling the truth about targeting Doombunny at least (why say you targeted someone who died when you're already under suspicion unless it's the truth?), and based on the way Monkey is responding to things I've been toying with the possibility that he wasn't told his ability would kill anyone.

@RBT: Bring it, scum. You're not getting a claim out of me, especially not claiming a role that sounds that anti-town.

Y'know the

real

pro-town option, if the mod actually did give you a shitty ability like that, is to not use it at all, right?

My role PM specifically says I win with the town. If the mod was lying about my alignment in my role PM that would be pretty much bastart modding.

[MonkeyMan576]

EBWOP: Bastard

[MonkeyMan576]

I wouldn't need to be coerced into targeting RBT(or someone else). That sounds reasonable to me as a way to ascern the nature of my powers.

I don't have to search for someone every night.

[MonkeyMan576]

RBT, Semioldguy, and Thor are my top suspects right now...

RBT's scumminess has been well documented, Semioldguy seems to be a little all over the place and he seems a bit nervous. Thor seems to be trying a bit to hard to be everyone's friend and is asking "soft" questions.

[MonkeyMan576]

I win if I profess my love to Billy Buddy. According to the wiki, Dr. Horrible and Billy Buddy are the same person, so I assume you are also Billy Buddy. So if I profess my love to you we should both win!

I'm assuming you are town, the same as me, and it wouldn't make sense for the town to lynch either or us, and since we have seperate win conditions, it wouldn't make sense for the mafia to kill us if we will be removed from the game.

[MonkeyMan576]

Thor seems to be trying a bit to hard to be everyone's friend and is asking "soft" questions.

I will note that I do not believe being polite and considering the purpose of the game to be fun equates to being scum...though this might explain a lot of the other play styles I see.

People that are overly concerned with how other people see them tend to be scummy. Enough said.

FOS: Thor665

[MonkeyMan576]

Why should not having the standard win condition be enough to lynch? We both win with the town, with a seperate conditional win scenario. We are going to be out of the game day 3. The town has nothing to gain by lynching us. Once we are out of the game, there will be two confirmed townies, which will benefit the town greatly in scum hunting. The only people who have anything to gain by lynching us is scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

If you want us to win with the town, why are you proposing lynching us, you don't make sense. I think it's a scum ploy.

[MonkeyMan576]

If you want us to win with the town, why are you proposing lynching us, you don't make sense. I think it's a scum ploy.

His stated belief is that your win condition ends the game - therefore he would want to lynch one of you to prevent the win condition. That does make sense presuming he otherwise accepts that you are town.

What are your thoughts about Button saying he believes you are lying about your win condition and your name claim?

The game ending night one would be incredibly broken. Mod's don't put all the time and effort into a game for it to end on one or two nights based on the actions of a couple players. That's just not the way mafia is played.

As for me lying, there's absolutely no evidence of that, and he has provided no evidence that I am besides his hunch. I've already explained how letting us try to meet our win condition and not lynch us helps the town, and that the only team it hurts is scum, which is probably why he is so against the idea.

[MonkeyMan576]

The game ending night one would be incredibly broken. Mod's don't put all the time and effort into a game for it to end on one or two nights based on the actions of a couple players. That's just not the way mafia is played.

Ok, assume the game doesn't end. But you two do win. How does that help everyone else? Should town just play for a secondary, half-ass win? I dont know about everyone else, but I'm

PLAYING TO WIN

- I believe thats even one of mith's rules for this board. Always play to win. I dont see how letting you win fits into that scheme.

Well, it would make us confirmed townies. Even if we're out of the game, you'd know we aren't scum. That way you could concentrate on other players, you'd have less players to investigate and waste other night actions on. Consolidating the game this way only helps town.

[MonkeyMan576]

Consolidating the game this way only helps town.

I'm not sure if it's helpful for that - since in effect it will be like a lynch and a Nightkill without the attendant day of discussion or the ability to perform actions at night. How do you disagree with this and paint the result as more pro town?

The only real advantage I see is that I am suspicious of both you and Button and the thought of both of you being 'cleared' via win and removal from the game is tempting.

You won't need to target us with night actions. The odds of catching scum with a night action is greater in a 7 player game scenario vs. a 9 player game scenario(assuming scum successfully kill a townie tonight). Plus you have two less players in day discussion to worry about who is swaying the town the wrong way.

[MonkeyMan576]

@monkey - You failed to answer my question. Why should the town help you come in first place? What

value

does our win have when you have already won by doing what you two have done today?

I already answered that.

I haven't won yet. I have to profess my love as a night action. Once we win, the town winning will obviously not have any value to us. But us winning does have valule to the town. The town has nothing to lose and everything to gain by allowing us to meet our win condition.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Thor:

In regards to your question about Death Ray accuracy; yes the PM told me there could be accuracy issues.

Okay, but you're going on a presumption that your death ray effect zapped Doombunny because Monkey targeted Doombunny. This then seems like if we let Monkey target you that we do not get a Vig effect out of you unless for some reason you self-vig, yes?

Also, Monkey was asked for his top suspects, but no one asked you. Since I hate the thought of you being left out, could you please clarify your top 2-3 suspects at the moment?

@Monkey - it has been argued that you are scum (Hero) and that you have lied about your role claim and win condition. Is this true? If so, can you tell us any remaining partner's name(s)?

I don't have any partners, and I'm not scum. I win with the town unless I meet my win condition. My roleclaim is truthful.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think Thor and Riceballtail are probably on opposite sides, I'm just not sure which is which.

[MonkeyMan576]

@sog - can you summarize the playstyle and usefulness of any two players, in-depth, at least a paragraph given to each? I dont not care who, just pick any two. Do not concern yourself with the whys of my question, I am simply curious and would like your analysis.

Riceballtail is concise and not directly upfront. Other players are mistaking this for scummy when I don't think it is in this case. Riceballtail's play here has been typical with my past experience in other games with him and the concision is not an alignment indicator. He isn't useless, when he notices reads he provides them and there is sound reasoning behind it even if it is not greatly detailed it is still there. I'd lean slightly town on Riceballtail.

I've played with MonkeyMan576 twice before and found him scummy both times (Once he was, and the other time he was not). I have picked up a feeling of self-preservation from him in both games which has led me to scummy reads. I tried ignoring that fact this game and trying to look for other indicators. I would not have put it past MonkeyMan576 to be a power role at the end of day one, but obviously didn't want to mention that. However, he claimed a role that has a win condition aside from the town and that isn't something I can trust. Knowing that he has a win condition aside from the town makes him more useless as nothing he says can be taken at face value. His is publicly aiming for a win outside of the town win condition and I don't see how that is useful.

The point isn't weather letting me win is "useful", it's weather letting me win is harmful. Lynching me or my partner not only lynches a townie, but wastes a day in trying to lynch scum. There's really nothing to be gained by lynching one of us just because we're supposedly not "useful"(which is not true). You should be worrying about the scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

@sog - can you summarize the playstyle and usefulness of any two players, in-depth, at least a paragraph given to each? I dont not care who, just pick any two. Do not concern yourself with the whys of my question, I am simply curious and would like your analysis.

Riceballtail is concise and not directly upfront. Other players are mistaking this for scummy when I don't think it is in this case. Riceballtail's play here has been typical with my past experience in other games with him and the concision is not an alignment indicator. He isn't useless, when he notices reads he provides them and there is sound reasoning behind it even if it is not greatly detailed it is still there. I'd lean slightly town on Riceballtail.

I've played with MonkeyMan576 twice before and found him scummy both times (Once he was, and the other time he was not). I have picked up a feeling of self-preservation from him in both games which has led me to scummy reads. I tried ignoring that fact this game and trying to look for other indicators. I would not have put it past MonkeyMan576 to be a power role at the end of day one, but obviously didn't want to mention that. However, he claimed a role that has a win condition aside from the town and that isn't something I can trust. Knowing that he has a win condition aside from the town makes him more useless as nothing he says can be taken at face value. His is publicly aiming for a win outside of the town win condition and I don't see how that is useful.

The point isn't weather letting me win is "useful", it's weather letting me win is harmful. Lynching me or my partner not only lynches a townie, but wastes a day in trying to lynch scum. There's really nothing to be gained by lynching one of us just because we're supposedly not "useful"(which is not true). You should be worrying about the scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'd argue that letting you win as you describe is harmful. Additionally, there is no assurance that you win how you say you do and that is doesn't negatively affect the town.

Even if what you say is completely true, which I doubt, letting you win is worse than a mislynch since it removes two town players from the game. If you are town, whether you are lynched or removed from the game by some other win condition, you are still leaving the game. We are still down a player. However, if we lynch you instead of letting you win, not only do we ensure that you aren't betraying us, but if TheButtonmen is a vigilante we don't lose a power role in the process by not lynching you and letting you take him as well.

So if we lynch you and you are scum, that's good. If you are telling the truth and are town, it doesn't seem to do more harm to lynch you. It actually provides an extra game day.

Your tone is not pro-town. You are using terminology like if we are "useful" and "doesn't do more harm" to lynch. You do not seem focused on getting scum, and you're making things a lot more complicated than they are, trying to confuse the town. You have not explained how us leaving the game would be betraying the town, because it wouldn't. We would be confirmed townies, as I said before, and you would have two less players to worry about. The goal of any mafia game for the town(besides lynching scum) should be to have as many confirmed townies as possible. It's fine if you don't trust us, but there's really no logic in lynching us today. The logical thing to do is to let us try to meet our win condition tonight, and then if it doesn't work you would have reason to assume we are lying, not right now.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'd argue that letting you win as you describe is harmful. Additionally, there is no assurance that you win how you say you do and that is doesn't negatively affect the town.

Even if what you say is completely true, which I doubt, letting you win is worse than a mislynch since it removes two town players from the game. If you are town, whether you are lynched or removed from the game by some other win condition, you are still leaving the game. We are still down a player. However, if we lynch you instead of letting you win, not only do we ensure that you aren't betraying us, but if TheButtonmen is a vigilante we don't lose a power role in the process by not lynching you and letting you take him as well.

So if we lynch you and you are scum, that's good. If you are telling the truth and are town, it doesn't seem to do more harm to lynch you. It actually provides an extra game day.

I find myself in full agreement with this post.

Also, it doesn't make sense that you are basing a MM lynch on the premise that Button is town and I am scum. Logic dictates that we are both town or both scum. If we are both town then you shouldn't be lynching me because I am town. If we are both scum you shouldn't be operating on the premise that button is a vigilante.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, if it's gonna be between me and RBT I know who I'm voting for:P.

Vote: RBT

And it's not a gambit. It really wouldn't make any sense for me to reveal my powers like I did if I was scum. There's a lot safer rc's I could make.

[MonkeyMan576]

I couldn't profess my love, I was blocked...

[MonkeyMan576]

I wasn't tricking, but whatever floats your boat.

Let's get a wagon going...


Vote: McGriddle

[MonkeyMan576]

wrong tags

Vote: Mcgriddle

[MonkeyMan576]

I like how I'm likely blocked by scum to not meet my win condition, and then likely town are trying to lynch me, playing right into scum hands.

Unless scum are fueling the lynch conversation today.

[MonkeyMan576]

I like how I'm likely blocked by scum to not meet my win condition, and then likely town are trying to lynch me, playing right into scum hands.

This would imply that you think Thor665 is scum, as he claims to have blocked you, but your vote rests on McGriddle. Why is that?

I didn't see that. But yeah, I've thought he was scummy the whole game.

Unvote:
Vote: Thor665

[MonkeyMan576]

What makes you think the block to more likely come from scum than town? A mass block there seems like a pro-town move to me.

If you think that scum made the block, then I don't know how you can claim to be town, since it would have been advantageous for scum to just let you and TheButtonmen leave as well a getting a night kill if that were the case. That'd be three townies gone in one night, unless one of you is scum, which I think is the case.

I disagree with your assessment. While the voting numbers would favor scum in a two-out scenario, the scum hunting numbers would favor town. As I said before, it would be easier to find scum with two less players to worry about and take night actions on. In a game where there are lots of powers, I think this is a lot more important than the two votes. Once it is figured out who the scum are, the two-outers aren't going to matter, and scum know it.

[MonkeyMan576]

Two players leaving reduces the number of nights by one. So in a town with powers, that's one less night town gets to use power. Also by your logic, a mislynch causes the numbers to favor town for scum hunting, but that doesn't mean we should go around mislynching to improve our lynch-odds for later. It would be easier to find scum tomorrow if we mislynch today, but that doesn't make mislynching today good or something to aspire to.

That's not what I said at all. Letting two players meet their win condition doesn't equate to a mislynch. In fact, it gives you an extra chance to lynch the actual scum. If you lynch me or Button, you will be effectively wasting a day.

[MonkeyMan576]

And if you both leave how does that not equate to wasting a day?

(1) Lynch + Night Kill = 2 players gone from the game.

(2) You + TheButtonmen winning and leaving = 2 players gone from the game.

It looks like it equates a mislynch to me. Both options "waste" a day. But option two ensures that there will be one less day than there would have been on top of it all, as it doesn't require the passing of a day phase, so it's actually worse than a mislynch. This isn't difficult to understand.

Yeah, but if you lynch us you're lynching town. If you lynch someone else you have a chance of getting scum. That shouldn't be difficult to understand.