Mini #1022- PokeUPick(Game Over)
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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@Xite: Yeah, don't really like it considering it doesn't seem like an RVS vote.
Preview Edit: I think that he may have allowed it purely since it was Eevee. I also dislike Xite's claim, but I believe it until I have reason to do otherwise. We'll know from the kills tonight. If there are two kills, he's telling the truth, barring an SK. Of course, only one kill does not mean that he must be scum. That said, I have a question for Xite. What is your kill flavor?
Preview Edit 2: NB claim now. As town, you should have no reason to wait to claim. Waiting just opens a whole bucket of WIFOM.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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I have gotten all 150 pokemon in the original red/green/yellow games. And if you don't like that I call blue Pokemon Green, too bad. Other than that, not much. I watched the cartoons occasionally as a kid. And I got to like, the third gym in silver/gold. Also played the TCG a lot(this was back in Jungle and Fossil). That's why I picked Wigglytuff, she was always my favorite card. Also, I can sympathize with the uber Christian mom problem. Let me guess: Her racist self thought that the Pokemon represented Japanese demons? Not a personal experience, but one of many of my friends. And Xite, answer my question: what is your kill flavor? Also, I used Bulbapedia.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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I was questioning jimfinn because the mod had said only kanto/johto. Also, Prox, usually when players can kill, they are told their kill flavor, i.e. how their target will appear as having been killed in the morning. I was wondering, since if someone shows up the next morning as having been killed through said flavor, it will basically confirm Xine. Also, Xine is not confirmed yet. SK claiming vig is not at all uncommon. But water type is an unlikely SK role, so if that really is her role, then she should have a plausible kill flavor, and someone should show up as killed in that way if there are two NKs. If we have two NKs, but neither is the claimed kill flavor, then Xine is lying SK. PREVIEW EDIT: That said, it's clear that Xine was not told her kill flavor..... Presumably, we'll know in the morning.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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Actually, the time where I didn't vote Espeo until after NB did was because my internet freaked out. I was really disappointed when I got it working again and nicol had already voted. Also, PRs are hardly going to be outed by flavor claim. It's Pokemon, any of the characters could easily be a power role.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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It doesn't have any at all. If you look at my (recently updated) wiki, I have been scum only once my entire time on site, my very first game. And I can tell you right now, I am definitely not playing to that meta, because I do not suck that much anymore. Now, vezok is generally pretty VI. But he lies as scum. A lot. Can't give a link, because it's ongoing, but I actually have meta, unlike vez. If you search through my large themes, you'll find it.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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unvoteI want to let Espeo present his case if he has one. And yeah, but they at least just aren't supplying their reasoning. Granted, if they make another post without revealing it, you know where my vote's going to go. But having reasoning that's just made up is a bit more serious. Considering a vote. Wow. Just realized, MBF is the only person voting me with any semblance of reasoning.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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I'm sorry, I figured that DMSIS had answered that question for me. The thing is, DMSIS has these little catch words he uses as scum. Misrep, OMGUS, active lurking, etc. Also, he votehops like a three year old on crack cocaine. If you look at his town games, he mostly just bandwagons and setup speculates. And then there's the line: "Trying to keep suspicion away from himself", which he hasn't used so far this game, but I'm sure it will come soon. In other words, if he's town, you'll be almost certain he's scum. When he's scum, you'll think he's scum, but then you'll decide that he's probably newb town.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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And for those of you wondering why I'm so familiar with shotty's meta even though I've only played with him a couple times, he's my best friend IRL, so he asks me to read all his games so I can give him feedback later. So I have not only read all the games in that post, but also a few ongoing games where he has already flipped. Plus some ongoing games where I've already guessed what he's going to flip. So I trust my shotty meta more than my meta on any other player on this site.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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Okay, the reason I claimed without any in-game stimulation was because the argument was with myself, not with you guys. And the no-vanilla thing was just a hunch based on all the soft-claims, and the fact that I have NEVER played a uPick with vanillas. And...... the case again. I'll probably be able to rebut it tomorrow, my brother's been in town this last week, so I was hanging out with him instead of playing mafia. :/-
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Wait, is this referring to Prox? And I will have that post up TODAY. Gotta go read my other games first though. And where the hell is Jarti? He hasn't posted in like, a century.bv310 wrote:Mostly his withholding information from the town, while simultaneously allowing himself an excuse to fall back on when a scan calls him scum. It's a move I'd expect ballsy scum to try, especially in a U-Pick.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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MBF, that's what we're worried about. It would skip a night. Now, we have a vig and probably an investigative role too. Whereas scum has a kill and maybe a couple of minor power roles. What we're debating is whether skipping a night is pro-town, considering that scum would get an NK anyways. My theory is that IF DMSIS is telling the truth about his ability(which I don't think he is, for paradox reasons) then he's probably bullet proof scum.-
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Switz wrote:Okay, Nicol's reasoning makes sense. So here's my case.
The short version: Gandalf's overzealous play makes him likely to be scum because it involves him both keeping town distracted and pushing cases with little merit so fast we don't notice the lack of evidence.
Long version: Throughout this game, Gandalf's been playing very aggressively. He's one of the more frequent posters, but despite this, there's very little content in his posts. In fact, I think it's safe to say there's no scumhunting in any of his play so far.I'm assuming that you're saying this because I haven't posted any huge wall o text posts like this one. I have found that real scum are more likely to be found by small mistakes in addition to gut than by consistently anti-town play. With a few exceptions, of course. I'm not discrediting your playstyle, just saying that it usually doesn't work for me.
But here's what he has done.
Forced Quick Nameclaiming
I think we've all determined by this point that a mass nameclaim is pretty much the way to go. But that wasn't the case on Page 2, where our first claim is made. And why was that claim made?
gandalf5166 wrote:Not much point in breadcrumbing if we're about to nameclaim. I support the idea of nameclaiming, although I don't think that it would be that hard for mafia to fake-claim. While it might not help too much, it certainly couldn't hurt.Xite91 wrote:I say we go for it, I have no problem being the first, and again I ask, do people want me to full claim, considering it will help town?gandalf5166 wrote:If you think it will help, go ahead. If you're really important, I'm sure we have a doc.
In the span of 15 minutes, Gandalf convinces Xite to claim by encouraging him to commit to his promise to be the first and his promise that there is a Doc waiting to protect him. Aside from the fact that this reasoning is opposite (which someone else pointed out, I don't remember who), this is just anti-town. The pro-town move to make would be to make sure Xite doesn't claim until more than, say, half the people in the game have had a chance to weigh in. Xite's claim broke down the floodgates, encouraging everyone else to join the massclaim.Xite91 wrote:Alright
Well, I am the Water Type
Each night I get to choose one player to do water-type damage to (Vig)
Which is why I wanted to claim, I want it to be town directed, and I don't think the doc should worry about me, the kill still goes through if I'm NK'd, and I'm sure there's better PR's to protect.Nobody was forced to claim. They just used their brains and realized that there wasn't any reason not to. And to be honest, I didn't realize she was going to claim vig. I figured she was going to claim miller or something. And think about it. If she did claim something important, which she did, then mafia would be stupid to kill her. Because IF there was a doctor, they would have wasted their nightkill. So whether or not there is a doc, she's pretty much safe.
Now, if Gandalf is scum, as I believe him to be, this course of action serves multiple purposes. It forces the town to focus on claims and keeps them from doing any initial scumhunting based on gameplay; instead we're theorizing based on claims. It also, in this particular case, convinced someone who appears to be a power role to claim. Regardless of Xite's alignment, this is bad for us; if he's really the Vig, he's now exposed and likely to get picked off, if he's scum pretending to be Vig, he's been outed in an attempt to gain our trust. And it accelerates the game's speed before everyone can weigh in. Scum have everything to gain from us moving faster than we should and not thinking about our actions.The point of a mass name claim at start was to make scum to stick to their flavor claims, potentially limiting their full-claims later on. And accelerating the game speed at the beginning is definitely good. RVS is a bunch of bullshit.
And lest you think this is an isolated incident, look here:
NicolBolas wrote:I did not exactly "list bandwagon". The post by gandalf perfectly addressed my concerns, while still giving the town a way to input some opinions.
And I want to see more input from others before I claim. That's why I posted that "where is everyone else?" post. Your reasoning is bad, but I don't see any scummy things about it.
Again, he sees someone hesitating to claim and pushes them over the edge. The only difference is this time he uses the stick instead of the carrot; whereas before claiming would warrant the protection of a Doc, now not claiming has the stigma of being labeled non-town. And his actions afterwards are even more interesting. Which leads me to my next point...gandalf5166 wrote: ...
Preview Edit 2: NB claim now. As town, you should have no reason to wait to claim. Waiting just opens a whole bucket of WIFOM.When I made this post, my brain hurt from another game, and I was kind of pissed off, so when I saw someone not claiming, yeah, I got angry, as like I have said, I don't think that withholding your name-claim is a good idea.And I didn't get any grapefruit juice, so I'm not scum.
Parrotting Others' Ideas
Through the game, Gandalf hasn't been actually coming up with any unique theories or arguments against anyone, at least not any with evidence. What he'd rather do instead is parrot back the beliefs of others to gain support. Like in this lovely exchange right after Nicol does claim.
Prox, Post 56 wrote:So why did you wait to claim?
Ignoring the fact that this statement is made shortly after Gandalf was encouraging Nicol to claim without any such questions about why he was waiting so long to do so, this is a clear instance where Gandalf takes up the idea of another and runs with it so we don't see that he doesn't have any ideas of his own. Here's another example, early in his crusade against Espy.gandalf5166, Post 57 wrote:Wow, scum caught already? Sneasel isn't from Gold and Silver, is he? And yeah, why the hell did you wait to claim?At the time, it seemed like he MIGHT have had reasons not to name claim, but after he did, I didn't get it. And since when is not being the first one to respond to everything a scum tell?
gandalf5166 wrote:Wait, is Espeo joking? Because he hasn't posted any reasoning behind his vote at all.
Why is it that the first time he points out that Espy hasn't posted a case, it's a confusing potential joke, and the second time, it's antitown? Answer: Because the second time it's Prox that says it, (possibly) inadvertently laying the groundwork for Gandalf to rail against Espeonage. Which brings me to my last point...gandalf5166 wrote:
This. Voting without posting your reasoning is 100% sure to be unhelpful to town.Prox wrote:Cases should be posted.All I can do is hold my head in my palms and say stupid. I didn't LITERALLY think it was a joke. And I still think that voting without reasons is anti-town. The reason you vote is because you want someone to be lynched, and if you don't supply reasoning, no one is going to vote with you.
Over-Relentless Idea-Pushing
Now, Gandalf hasn't been quite as guilty of these former offenses lately, because he's been busy trying to make everyone else (especially Espeonage, MBF, and Vezo) look scummy instead, and this is how: by pushing their apparent scumminess down our throats until we believe it. I'm not going to post quotes here because most of the posts I would quote are so short they'd waste space, but their message is always the same. If it's about Espy, he's saying that he lacks a case and is scummy. If it's about MBF, he starts talking about how his summary "misreps" everyone. If it's about Vezo, Vezo's making up the scumGandalf meta he's using. You get the drift.I have specifically said that I believe 100%that both MBF and VP are town. So shut up. And Espeo is still scummy. The case he made is entirely makeshift. I seriously doubt that that was what he had when he voted me. If it was, he would have had plenty of time to refine it and make it less..... contentless?
The point is, if he pushes these ideas long enough, we're going to start believing them. But there's no hard evidence to back any of these assertions up. Espeonage could be making up the case, but we have no way of knowing. MBF could be misrepping, but no one has come forward with examples. Etc. But Gandalf doesn't need any evidence anyways as long as he can convince us to go after people like Espy without thinking about it.
Which brings me back to the short version of the argument at the top of the post.-
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gandalf5166 Jack of All Trades
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