Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over

[ShadowLurker]

/in to replace

[ShadowLurker]

Ok, I have just reread the game. Here are my thoughts right now:

For most of the game, all we have seen is a Coron vs. Nai argument. From what I could gather, Jules seemed to be a big part of it at the beginning but most of his posts disappeared in the crash, is that correct? People have been taking sides on Coron and Nai, which is why I find the recent vote count highly odd for the behavior of this game:

Nai- 2 (Coron, Jules)
Jules- 2 (CrashTextDummie, Stewie)
Coron- 2 (Nai, lunalovegood)
CrashTextDummie- 1 (Nightfall)
lunalovegood- 1 (HackerHuck)

Nightfall: Why is your vote on CTD?
HH: Why is your vote on luna?

Jules seems to still have things to clear up from like page 3 or 4 which is unacceptable.


I received a similar read on both sides of the Coron vs. Nai camp, found serious flaws and things that I could not agree with in both of their arguments. However, we can't have all of those people be scum, and I doubt a staged argument could last as long as it has so I am starting to think that both of those are town and am more suspicious of the people who have joined their one of their camps but aren't really taking a hard stance on this.

I found Zindaras' constant pursuance of the person I replaced, lunalovegood, extremely odd throughout the whole game especially with this argument going on. I have some theories but all I will say on this subject right now is:

Zindaras: What is your opinion on the Coron vs. Nai debate?

[ShadowLurker]

EBWOP: For now, I'll

FoS: Jules

[ShadowLurker]

HH: Why is your vote on luna?

Jules seems to still have things to clear up from like page 3 or 4 which is unacceptable.


I received a similar read on both sides of the Coron vs. Nai camp, found serious flaws and things that I could not agree with in both of their arguments. However, we can't have all of those people be scum, and I doubt a staged argument could last as long as it has so I am starting to think that both of those are town and am more suspicious of the people who have joined their one of their camps but aren't really taking a hard stance on this.

I found Zindaras' constant pursuance of the person I replaced, lunalovegood, extremely odd throughout the whole game especially with this argument going on. I have some theories but all I will say on this subject right now is:

Zindaras: What is your opinion on the Coron vs. Nai debate?

I voted for Luna because of this post, which put Coron at lynch-1.

Lol. Anyway

unvote, vote Coron

because he seems to be acting a bit scummy and too sure of himself.

The overall case against Coron was

incredibly

weak at that point. She made things worse with her explanation of why - both in post 43 and in post 51. In post 51, she mentions that she didn't know Coron would be at lynch-1 with her vote, but in post 42 (1 hour before her vote in post 43) I asked why Coron was at lynch-2. I felt her reasoning was pretty soft for putting someone one vote from lynch.

In case you were just wondering why my vote was still on her, it's because I haven't felt anyone else to be scummier. See my post 188 for a brief rundown on how I feel about everyone.

Er, almost everyone. I just noticed that I somehow missed GreenLiquid in that post. I know he's contributed, so I'll try and take a look at his posts and see what I come up with.

Why do you find Zindaras' pursuit of Luna stranger than mine? Although we both had the same idea/suspicion, I placed the first vote on Luna, and I did not unvote.

I didn't even notice your constant pursual, I think it was the fact that you were involved in the Coron vs. Nai debate, yet Zindaras seemed to have completely stayed out of it.

[ShadowLurker]

EBWOP: Coron's playing as usual, and the early game wagon which put him at Lynch-1 reeks of scum. I don't think I've seen Nai play like this in any other game.

An interesting thing to note, by the way, is that in Space Monkey Mafia, an early bandwagon also showed up, and the person who put the guy at Lynch-1 and then tried to slip back into lurkerdom also was scum.

Is that supposed to mean something? First of all, I'm pretty sure Space Monkey is still going. Next, I'm not lurking now, and neither was luna, she was just inactive. The very point that me and luna have different actions shows that there are different playstyles so I see no idea why you brought that up in the first place other than to subtly discredit me.

Vote: Zindaras

[ShadowLurker]

Next, I'm not lurking now, and neither was luna, she was just inactive. The very point that me and luna have different actions shows that there are different playstyles so I see no idea why you brought that up in the first place other than to subtly discredit me.

Vote: Zindaras

Luna's playstyle is comparable to bird's. You would act differently in that situation as well.

Kelly's and SL's actions are only furthering me in my beliefs that they're both scum. I find the HackerHuck vote unsettling, and SL is being overaggressive, in my eyes.

Sorry for trying to catch scum while the town has been enveloped in taking camps and cheerleading while Nai and Coron duke it out.

[ShadowLurker]

So the cheer squad consists of me, Jules and Zindaras?

ShadowLurker - how do you know that Luna was just inactive and not lurking? The difference is intent and I cannot fathom how you would know Luna's intent.

By checking her posts?

[ShadowLurker]

So the cheer squad consists of me, Jules and Zindaras?

ShadowLurker - how do you know that Luna was just inactive and not lurking? The difference is intent and I cannot fathom how you would know Luna's intent.

By checking her posts?

EBWOP: And the fact that she's replaced.

[ShadowLurker]

Next, I'm not lurking now, and neither was luna, she was just inactive. The very point that me and luna have different actions shows that there are different playstyles so I see no idea why you brought that up in the first place other than to subtly discredit me.

Vote: Zindaras

Luna's playstyle is comparable to bird's. You would act differently in that situation as well.

And how did you come to that conclusion?



Sorry: About the quad posting, edit them to 2 I guess if you want to mod? This will be my last post for now, I promise.

[ShadowLurker]

I can confirm luna receiving that artifact at the end of Night 1.

[ShadowLurker]

I can confirm luna receiving that artifact at the end of Night 1.

Care to explain how so?

If Jules is in fact telling the truth, then it wouldn't surprize me if someone had the ear of the diviner.

Coron, please say ass. It would mean a lot to me.

[ShadowLurker]

I'm pointing out Jules is telling the truth about her artifact. And yes, that's what it does, although I was also confused about the artifact and I asked the mod and he said I won't be receiving anymore information. I have not received any information about having to pass it on though.

I never found Jules suspicious and couldn't really find anything incriminating in your case against him. All I found was a bit of overreacting but I don't really consider overreacting a scumtell.

Mod:

Were items assigned independently of alignment?

[ShadowLurker]

What happened between these two posts? His claim came before the first one.

I see no reason not to lynch this guy.

Unvote

Have to think his claim over.

You need an answer to this question? He claimed an item between those two posts.

FOS: HackerHuck

Can ShadowLurker confirm what the item does? I have some difficulty imagining that scum would start out with an information object. They wouldn't have incentive to pass it around, I don't think.

Wow, he has an item! That made me really believe he might not be scum. Weren't we all given artifacts? I really didn't want to make an assumption about his thought process, so I find it interesting that I get an FOS for asking someone for clarification.

Anyway, from the description, this isn't an information item per se. It allows one to ask a question, but doesn't deliver information to the owner.

Along with Green Liquid, I strongly suggest that if there is a 'mouth' or similar artifact the current owner should keep mum.

It says right in the first post some people don't have artifacts.

Actually, I think the Mouth should claim if there is one. I'd rather know where the answers are coming from rather than assuming they're the truth.

[ShadowLurker]

Hey guys, finished exams now, but christmas stuff has taken up time too.

I've read what I missed and am ready to post some more.

I DONT think that the person who has the mouth should claim.

I DO however want to bring up an idea.

Some/most/? of us started the night with an artifact. It is my understanding that we were then given a chance to use the artifact and then pass it on. How would people feal about a mass semi claim on the artifacts that we all had at the start. Ie. We would all claim the NAME and ONLY the name of the artifact we had at the start of the previous night, before we had passed it on. That way if anyone does have the mouth, we would at the very least know where it was. Also if any of us end up under the effects of some unknown artifact, we should be able to confirm where it came from. This will also help us to analyze any passing patterns. I played in a game called ROLESWAP mafia were the town did this and it helped considerably. In that game, I was scum and I lost my two partners because someone noticed a trend in our records. One final advantage I can see of this would be that it will let people know where artifacts have been, but wont inform the mafia of where they currently are, so they wont be able to target certain artifacts for nightkills.

Any opinions?

Are artifacts one shot? I was under the impression you could use them as much as you wanted to.

There are two problems with this,

1) Let's say someone has a cop artifact or something, mafia can still kill them to get rid of a result and then that artifact may be lost (not sure)
2) People still have roles in this game in addition to artifacts so we might not be able to trace everything.

[ShadowLurker]

After rereading something I am STRONGLY AGAINST A MASSROLECLAIM and against the Mouth of the Diviner or whatever we may believe to exist to claim.

[ShadowLurker]

The question is not only whether he would get the artifact if he were scum, it was whether he would pass it on. It sort of WIFOMs but, there is a definate tangible advantage to scum from having this not circulate.

The article MUST be passed on if used.

[ShadowLurker]

Guys, I am currently inclined to think your speculation about Mouth of the Diviner is wrong and you should stop it. Thanks.

That is all.

[ShadowLurker]

You mean the Ear? There's no mention of 'must be passed on' in the general rules.

Would you please address this SL

If the description starts with "You may" means each

player

may use that artifact once.

[ShadowLurker]

The way part of my PM was phrased makes me think that you have to give it away.

Mod:

If an artifact starts with "you may" after you use it, do you have to pass it?

[ShadowLurker]

I don't.

[ShadowLurker]

I have also had some doubts about Stewie lately, but I'm still quite suspicious of ShadowLurker. His initial support for the "mouth" claiming was noted.

May I ask how that's suspicious at all?

Also, you have not expressed ANY suspicion of me, but only of my predecessor and apparently, your reason for her was that she was lurking yet it was not lurking, but inactivity hence her replacement. In multiple posts you have reitereated you are still suspicious of me, yet you have not provided any reasons at all. This is a new reason from you and you have not explained how it's suspicious.

Unvote Vote HH

[ShadowLurker]

Nai’s behaviour at the time of the crash was really concerning to me. He seemed to be grasping at straws and trying to force some weak evidence on Coron. The aggressive push against Coron on seemingly weak evidence does not seem like pro-town play. However, I’ve got a weird “gut” feeling that he’s not scum. Luna has shown some similar behaviour although she was not pushing to the extent that Nai was. Her reluctance to unvote even at lynch -1 makes me still happy with my vote.

I like how Jules is starting to play the Coron game a bit and stir the pot. I really don't like how Jules' vote was placed with no additional comment, so I agree with Stewie's vote.

That said, Luna's still scummier in my book and I'd put Nai almost to her level. Even though I don't like his playstyle here, I think the Coron wagon is a little too weak for the amount of pressure he's getting.

I'm still happy with my vote on Luna. I don't like how she hopped on that Coron wagon to push him to lynch -1 and kept her vote there. She hasn't posted too much and recently threw out a few FOSes before disappearing again.

Coron has been pinging my scumdar a bit, but I chalk it up to his annoying playstyle. I'm not going to say I think he's likely town, but I'm not sure he's scum either. There are a couple of things I don't like - his using playstyle as an excuse and his defence of Jules was a bit overboard in my opinion. Since he likes to harp on others for defending someone else

After a reread, Jules seems a little scummy to me. Bandwagon hopping is too extreme of a description for his actions, but I feel like he's been jumping on bandwagons once they get a few others piled on first.

In case you were just wondering why my vote was still on her, it's because I haven't felt anyone else to be scummier. See my post 188 for a brief rundown on how I feel about everyone.

I have also had some doubts about Stewie lately, but I'm still quite suspicious of ShadowLurker. His initial support for the "mouth" claiming was noted.

I urge everybody to read these posts.

In these posts, he expressed suspicion of:
Me
Coron
Nai
Jules
Stewie

Yet his vote has been on luna the whole game and now me. To me, this just looks like someone being wishy washy, fence sitting, and making excuses to move his vote at any time. Your ONLY case against luna was that she put Coron at -1. I wonder how you were sure she's scum from that alone. Next, you repeatedly try to get people on me by saying things like "I AGREE, BUT IM STILL SUSPICIOUS OF SHADDOWLURKER BECAUSE HIS PREDECESSOR PUT CORON AT -1 OMG" over and over again. Lastly, you introduce this new bit of "evidence" recently and are refusing to answer my questions about it.

You're confusing me with Zindaras. I wasn't voting Luna because she lurked. I'm sorry that you may have inherited a scum role, but you cannot get the slate wiped clean and undo Luna's actions.

It's going to take a while to gain my trust and making scummy proposals like you did will make it take even longer.

I find it very suspicious that anyone would specifically want the mouth to claim. Especially after you made sure to clarify that the artifact would be lost if the owner were killed that night.

HH just COMPLETELY ignored my post. I asked him how asking the Mouth to claim was scummy, once again he says it's a "scummy proposal" without saying why. Then he goes on to say it's "very suspicious" once again, without saying why.

[ShadowLurker]

He actually did say why. Because if the owner of the Mouth is killed, the Mouth is gone, and no one can use it.

And if the mouth is giving the answers in the first place, how reliable can it be?

[ShadowLurker]

And at first, I thought that was the case, but like I stated, upon rereading something, I highly doubt that is the case now.

[ShadowLurker]

How did I ignore your post?

I explained that you = luna, so therefore any suspicion on her is also suspicion on you.
I reminded you that I wasn't voting for your predecessor for her lurking.
And I thought I explained how your support of the mouth claim quite clearly. Let's see...

"...the artifact would be lost if the owner were killed that night."

Isn't that kind of like asking the cop to claim so you know where the answers are coming from?

Like I just said, in that case, how is the cop a cop at all, if he's replying to questions which he may or may not (probably the latter) know anything about? It seems for a way for him to manipulate the town if that was the case which once again, I don't think is.

[ShadowLurker]

So what you are saying is, it would be better to out the mouth and then have him subsequently probably killed, on the off chance the scum have it and are using it to their advantage? (A, what, 3-ish in 12 chance?)

Are you dileberately misunderstanding me?

I highly doubt that is the case

Anyway, if it DID work like that, the role would have no other use but to MISLEAD the town and scum would have no incentive to kill it.

[ShadowLurker]

SL: Where do you see that this isn't the case? Why do you think that either A. The item wouldn't be lost (which was confirmed by the mod) or B. The scum wouldn't kill it if it was town? It's like having a cop the scum doesn't kill. Rarely happens.

And what do you mean the role would mislead the town? Where do you get THAT?

If someone had a Mouth of the Diviner and sent answers to the questions the Ear asked, which I said I don't think is the case then A) The answers would potentially mislead the town as how is the holder of the Mouth of the Diviner supposed to know and B) The scum have no incentive to kill the person holding it because it's that person's opinion.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your theory about the Mouth of the Diviner earlier.

[ShadowLurker]

No I'm saying let's say the Ear of the Diviner asks a question like "Is X scum?"

The holder of the Mouth of the Diviner has no way of knowing if X is scum or not and could potentially mislead the town in his answer.

[ShadowLurker]

Ummm, then have the person with the mouth claim answer before person with the ear claims question. Then, if the question ends up falsified later on, the person who had the mouth gets lynched. Not hard.

And that involved the mouth claiming which is why I suggested it. But the point is moot now because I DON'T think that's how it works at all.

[ShadowLurker]

And I don't think the way you are suggesting, SL, is how it works. I think you ask the ear a question, and then the mouth tells you. I don't see how it would be that the person with the mouth gets the question and then answers, because who gets that answer? We've already gone over the fact that the Ear doesn't get answers. Directly, at least.

Ok, I misunderstood then, but I'm still doubting that's the way it works.

Assume for a moment that the scum have only found out about the possibility of the mouth through what has been posted. Given that they only have speculation about what it does and whether it even exists, does it make sense for scum to assume that the item would more likely benefit town or scum?



It's kind of funny how this post:

After rereading something I am STRONGLY AGAINST A MASSROLECLAIM and against the Mouth of the Diviner or whatever we may believe to exist to claim.

came directly after this one:

If it delivers information to anybody, the scum would not want to use it, pass it around, or even admit it exists. It seems there's some potential to use it for misdirection, but then the town would still expect the item to be passed along.

If you're going to try and imply something, come state it right now instead of pathetic attempts to poison the well like that. If you notice, I was referring to a mass roleclaim Nightfall suggested, and not at all what Kelly suggested. It has already been established I have the Ear, I'm not hiding anything about it. You yourself seem to be against the mass claim.

Confirm Vote HH

Taking things out of context to slyly imply something is not my idea of protown behavior

[ShadowLurker]

Wow, someone's a bit defensive.

I prefer to let others come to the same conclusion I did, rather than spoon feed them my ideas. I would think you should appreciate that route since if I took something out of context, others would be able to make that judgement for themselves.

Since you decided to deflect around what caught my eye, I'll trim down the quotes to highlight what gave me a chuckle.

If it delivers information to anybody, the scum would not want to use it, pass it around, or even admit it exists.

After rereading something I am ... against the Mouth of the Diviner or whatever we may believe to exist to claim.

I'm pretty sure the Mouth of a Diviner claiming is a subset of a mass artifacts claim and you needing that ... is pretty much admitting you're taking things out of context.

I'll bite: how do you think it works?

I don't know how it works but I'm doubting the Mouth and the Diviner if it exists and the Ear of the Diviner are related at all. That's all I'm saying, nothing more.

Vote: ShadowLurker

Don't like the way he's jumping on HackerHuck. Coupled with my heavy suspicion regarding luna, that's enough for me to vote him.

This is bullshit and you know it, you're just looking for an excuse to jump on me again because now I have momentum.

[ShadowLurker]

*pouts*

I still say I'm right, but I guess I won't get anywhere with them today.

This is bullshit and you know it, you're just looking for an excuse to jump on me again because now I have momentum.

Momentum? Hardly. I'm simply voting you because I have been suspicious of you all thread. You've always been pretty much my top suspect, and I believe that's more than clear enough. With Jules not getting lynched, I'm back to you.

Pretty sure it IS because I have any sort of momentum going on me now, and Jules doesn't.

There are no doubts in my mind that HackerHuck and Zindaras are scum together and I'd be happy with either one of them dying today.

[ShadowLurker]

SL:

can you think of any reason luna might have done this?

I'm not going to comment on whether it might've been role related or not but I'm going to comment as if it wasn't regardless of whether it is or not.

To me, it just seems like newbieness to me and with those posts, I have a hard time distinguishing from town or scum as frankly, experienced town AND experienced scum would NOT do it. Therefore, it's a newbie mistake in my opinion and not a scum or town tell. This is why I found Zindaras' constantly pushing on luna over those pages suspicious because luna was not around to defend herself and it seemed obvious to me it was just a newbie mistake and not a town or scum tell.

I got introduced to mafia on another site and everybody there are newbies. Almost all they do is bandwagon as to not draw suspicion to themselves and it's a null tell there as well.

I would also like to point you to this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4037 where luna was town and look at some of the posts she made:

"I've been sick, and people seem to think I'm lurking. I'm sorry I can't control when I'm in bed and am barely able to get up because I feel like crap. And Klebian, what was I supposed to say in response to your vote? It was a joke vote, and yet it seems that I'm scummy because I didn't get mad because of it?"
"For all previously mentioned reasons unvote, vote: ShadowLurker" (note: There was NO case against me seeing I was the Cop and I was put at -1 from this bandwagon)

so I think any pushing on luna for that post is a bit ridiculous.

[ShadowLurker]

I understand not everything can be solved by saying you are new, so the case turns out to be, would scum be more likely to do this? Judging by Luna's past games which I have pointed out where she made similar posts, and the fact that no experienced players would do it regardless of alignment, makes me believe that you can't make too much of it. I'm not saying we should forget about it but we have 20 pages of posts, and the fact remains that I have already discussed that post in relation to other people and we can't base a whole lynch off 2 posts made early game. We need to move foward and things like that can be looked at later, but as far as Day 1 goes, I believe we analyzed them to the extent that any two line post can be analyzed to.

So far, if I had to guess a scum trio, it would be HackerHuck, Stewie, and Zindaras partly by scummy things they have done by themselves, and partly by process of elimination.

Hopefully that generates some discussion.

[ShadowLurker]

Not only did perfect and luna cast very scummy votes, they also attempted to get off the bandwagon without arousing more suspicion. Some huge scumtells right there.

Can you find evidence for this? Luna voted Coron, made an attempt (although I agree it was inadequate) to explain why she thought Coron was scummy, and

stayed on

Coron even when other's stopped voting him so your assertion she tried to jump off without attracting attention is incorrect. The only case against her seems to be putting Coron at -1 on page 2, and I don't see at all why scum would be more likely to do that than town.

[ShadowLurker]

luna's unvote was lost during the crash.

Sorry, don't believe it was considering she even specifically clarified she was voting Coron in her last post.

[ShadowLurker]

Her last post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 743#472743

So it was a mod mistake just like where Jules was voting two people and the only post I see referencing luna and the crash is this:

I'm still voting luna, because I still think she was vote-hopping very blatantly before the crash. She hasn't done anything to convince me otherwise.

You accusing her of vote hopping when she only made ONE non-random vote and stuck with it is blatantly false and you tried contriving more reasons just now by saying she hopped off the wagon in a way as to not arouse suspicion. You still have not answered my point about how it is a scumtell and not a nulltell and frankly, this is getting tiring because I'm not even arguing anymore, I'm just proving your accusations are obviously wrong and constantly requesting you to answer my point.

[ShadowLurker]

I would like to know since when is "aggresiveness" or "overdefensiveness" a scumtell as I'm tired of being accused of it in all my games because frankly IMO, they aren't. I'm also curious as to how one post could put luna at 80 while any subsequent posts by anybody can barely change that #.

If you're a vanilla townie, the fact that you started with an artifact IS your role. I'm not sure how hard that is to comprehend.

I disagree.

[ShadowLurker]

Haven't received my prod yet but I have already stated where I stand.

I believe HackerHuck and Zindaras are scum and if I had to make a third choice right now, I'd say Machiavellian-Mafia.

[ShadowLurker]

Machiavellian-Mafia replaces Stewie.

[ShadowLurker]

LUNA/SL

Luna has done some pretty scummy stuff, but isn't going to be putting Jules to shame anytime soon. The biggest offense on the list is placing a very weak bandwagon at lynch minus one on Page 2. Other transgressions include not backing himself up and not contributing. I think people may be making a little too big of a deal of the lynch -1 thing, even though it is extremely scummy.

OVERALL:

Pretty scummy. Someone that needs to have an eye on them over the remainder of the game.

luna is a she, please refer to her actions as "she" and mine as "he" so that I may discern them. I see no comments on me so I don't see how I can defend against anything. I have posted a game where she also put someone at -1 with no reasoning and was town so I don't see how that can be that big of a scumtell if one at all against her.

[ShadowLurker]

Are people even looking at what Zindaras is saying? Zindaras believes putting someone at -1 makes them have an 80% chance of being scum. Even the cream of the crop players aren't 80% correct in finding scum. If you actually consider his arguments for a second and his disregarding of any contribution luna's replacement is making makes his case silly.

[ShadowLurker]

This also sounds like someone trying to sweep their predecessor's scummy behaviour under the rug, flavored with a little OMGUS... You should be happy he's redirecting his energies to someone else.

Are you freaking kidding me? This is not the first time I have commented on this, please read my posts before you even try to discredit me.

[ShadowLurker]

On Nai's claim: It doesn't make me go either way. I feel it could be scum, could be town. Therefore, it means I fall back on my read on him, which is most likely town by process of elimination.

[ShadowLurker]

Erm... Guys? All artifacts are one-time use for each person. Post 1 says this.

No, Post 1 says if it starts with "You may" it's one use.

[ShadowLurker]

I specifically said "For each person". There's also one use wonders. Mine specifically says it's too heavy to pass, since it's supposedly a huge chest.

Artifacts are not one use period if it does not start with "You may" or "Once in the game."

[ShadowLurker]

Confirm Vote: HH

[ShadowLurker]

What word does it use to describe the holder's death? (ie. die)

What's the point of asking him if you're going to give him the answer in parentheses?

[ShadowLurker]

He's also said that the item would get passed on if the holder was "killed"...
I wanted to know if that was his choice of wording or the item's/mod's.

Well don't put "that is die" in the post then, it ruins the point.

[ShadowLurker]

The Eye of the Diviner is a Cop, and I got that M-M is town, however, I was unable to leave my tent so I could not pass it. However, I will pass it tonight.

Anyway,

Vote Zindaras

.

[ShadowLurker]

I have something to say, but first I need three questions answered.

The person that had the ear - What did you ask it?

Shadow - Why did you ask about MM (Stewies Replacement?) when Jules already did that night 1?

Everyone - Does anyone else have an artifact with the words "of the Diviner" in it's name?

I did not do anything with the ear last night.

I asked about MM because I forgot Jules had asked about it, MM was the 2nd scummiest in my opinion although pretty distant from Zindaras so I wanted to see if my read on him was accurate, and Jules had also received no answer if you remember.

[ShadowLurker]

Why?

I don't see how I can elaborate further.

1) So you forgot that Jules asked the ear about MM, but you remembered that he got no answer?

2) What did you take the fact that Jules didnt (theoretically) recieve an answer to mean?

1) Last night, I forgot Jules used the ear on MM, I knew I wasn't using the Ear tonight as soon as I replaced in. When you brought it up this morning, I remembered that he received no result and am pointing out that it was unreliable anyway.

2) I take the fact that he didn't receive an answer to mean that he didn't receive an answer from the mod.

I'll rephrase, how many people here STARTED the game with an artifact with the words "of the diviner" in the name? Depending on the answer I get from this, I'm thinking I could in good confidence point out at least one scum.

I don't like this quesiton either. Both claimed Diviner artifacts so far have been coppish roles and it feels like outguessing the mod at best.

[ShadowLurker]

FoS: Nightfall

[ShadowLurker]

1) And the reason is obvious, read the 2nd post Nightfall.
2) The artifact has NO indication of that whatsoever, I don't recall him claiming that either. I don't buy it.
3) It looks like you're looking for further investigative roles.

[ShadowLurker]

Nightfall: Yes.

Still think Zindaras is scum.

MM is 2nd.

Nightfall is 3rd.

[ShadowLurker]

Why has SL yet to explain why he didn't use his artifact last night?

... I used the eye of the diviner ...



And the truth of me putting MM second is not any mistype or whatever, I will admit that I was not paying too much attention in that post and haven't been in all of my games lately. *shrug* Make of it what you will.

Oh and I obviously think MM is pretty much protown although he would've been my 2nd scummiest canindate today ignoring the investigation.

[ShadowLurker]

Hmm both Norinel and MeMe put M-M in bold o_O

[ShadowLurker]

I'm wondering why you would choose the course of action to LYNCH a potential cop role rather than just let it be passed in the night.

[ShadowLurker]

Well, if the town decided to let you go only on that reasoning, you'd (as scum) just refuse to pass it.

As the town would obviously let me slide by claiming a cop artifact and not demonstrating it every single night.

[ShadowLurker]

Nightson where is the spectacular insight you promised, or was that it?

[ShadowLurker]

whoah, brain freeze there... of course you didnt have the eye, nevermind...

Shadow, did the eye get passed to you? or did you have it from before?

I started with the Eye and was passed the Ear. luna did not do anything the 1st night.

[ShadowLurker]

I've already claimed. Ear of the Diviner, whispered a message into it, passed it on to Luna on the first night, have been without an artifact ever since. Luna's replacement can confirm that I (or actually my predecessor) passed him that item with a scumhunting question whispered into the Ear.

On a different note: I will be in Paris this weekend, so Friday-Saturday-Sunday I'm inactive. Monday I've got a test at University (I study Classical Archaeology), so won't likely be back until Tuesday, though I can post something short Monday already.

You could help us find scum rather than just sit back and go I'VE CLAIMED over and over.

[ShadowLurker]

Zindaras please elaborate more on your claim. Is it one use? Do you plan to pass it to me?

If Zindaras uses it on a scumbuddy, we pretty much have an obvious connection plus he already claimed he's going to give it to the cop.

Since Zindaras is testable, I'm willing to unvote him. However, I really believe Jules was protown and am unwilling to lynch Apieron.

[ShadowLurker]

I still don't see the usefulness of Zindaras' artifact.

Even if I have it, I can't use both the Cop and the Message Sender artifact the same night, so it's pointless and if I use the Cop, then I can announce it in the day if I still survive. I don't think it's particularly indicative of alignment either so I still think Zindaras is one of our better lynches.

I'm disconcertened by Apieron's disappearance under threat of a deadline and while I believe Jules is town, Apieron's activity is unacceptable. I still would not like an Apieron lynch today.

Mod: Can we get a prod on Apieron?

Grr. I hate deadlines. We need to decide on a person to lynch at the moment. I'm, unfortunately, not sold on any particular person right now.

I think that puts the hammer on Zindaras's claim for me. I'm fairly sure the mod said (post 2, wasn't it?) that:

If the description starts with "You may" means each player may use that artifact once. If it starts with "Once in the game, you may", that's once for the artifact for the entire game; once it's been used, the artifact either becomes useless or disappears.

There is no evidence of any artifact able to be used more than once by the same person. So either Zindaras is lying, methinks, or it's a role and Zindaras is STILL lying.

Unvote, Vote Zindaras

While Nai has always appeared more townie than scum for me, the discrepancy between these two posts is shocking and it looked like a quick jump under deadline. Nai makes it sound like in his 2nd post that he was suspecting Zindaras all along while in his other post on the same page he had not expressed suspicion of anyone at all. Nai moved way up on my suspicion list for this action and I might even move my vote.


GL seems to have disppeared as well.

Mod: Can we get a prod on GL?

Has Bogre even posted this game?

Mod: Can we get a prod on Bogre?

People who I 'm considering for a vote today
Zindaras
Nai

People who I wouldn't mind pressuring tommorow
Bogre
Apeiron (Replacing Jules)
GreenLiquid
Nightfall

People who I think are town
Kelly Chen (Replacing perfect62834)

[ShadowLurker]

Sorry about double post, just noticed something from SL's long post:

People who I 'm considering for a vote today
Zindaras
Nai

People who I wouldn't mind pressuring tommorow
Bogre
Apeiron (Replacing Jules)
GreenLiquid
Nightfall

People who I think are town
Kelly Chen (Replacing perfect62834)

Why leave off me and Coron?

As you're both in a grey area? I didn't like your predecessor too much but I like you and haven't really gotten any good reads on Coron plus I could see both Coron scum and Coron town regardless of the alignment of Nai.

[ShadowLurker]

Umm.. ..wow

I asked the Ear "Is Apeiron scum?" and tried to pass to Kelly.
I tried passing the eye to M-M.

I received Zindaras' message sending artifact.

We have 3 kills even though there's an SK dead. Maybe the mafia had a one shot extra kill or something?


As for my suspicions, seeing as the 3 people I felt most strongly about were all killed off in the night... I feel Nai/Apieron are the most suspicious right now, followed by Zindaras. Coron I would feel was scum probably only if Nai came up scum, GL I felt good about but he hasn't posted anything useful in about ever yet he's picked up all his prods.

[ShadowLurker]

I'm trying to figure out how I'm the most scummy right now, with Apeiron. I'm wary of Coron right now, with his claim that he killed Kelly Chen.

What do you mean by "with Apeiron" ?


Why does Coron claiming he killed Kelly Chen make you MORE way of him? Do you not believe him? Do you believe he is really scum nightkilling other scum? Have you not been wary of him this entire game?



Nai looks worse and worse the more he posts...

[ShadowLurker]

Shadowlurker - What do you mean by "tried to pass it on"? Did you get it back, or is it lost as well?

Just acknowledging that this has been noted.

I've been wary of him. He hasn't acted like someone with a vig ability, and I don't remember anyone claiming vig that would pass it on to him. And yes, I actually think he might try to pull that.

XX

Nai is at the top of my suspicion list by far

[ShadowLurker]

From the current posts, it seems obvious to me that Nai/Apeiron are scum. However, GreenLiquid's lack of contribution even though he clearly picked up a prod in the night concerns me greatly.

I am eliminating Zindaras solely by his actions related to his artifact and his artifact. While I would probably not normally do this, I just don't see Zindaras being scum as three other people are so much more scummy than him.

Coron seems obv town IMO, his reasoning is logical and solid basing it on the fact that I feel like his suspicions are real. I could still see a Coron/Nai scumgroup but it's below Nai/Apeiron.

Nai seems like he is trying to obfuscate things by throwing out wild things like scum has two kills, two SKs, or things that seem like a complete stretch and I really feel that he is scum right now.

I am ready to vote Nai although with Apeiron's vote on Coron, I think a vote on Apeiron might be wiser. Still not sure and I'd really like some input from Zindaras and especially GL.

[ShadowLurker]

Vote: Apeiron

I am almost sure that he is scum with that switch and his repeated posts of just "I am not mafia I am not mafia" with no contribution whatsoever other than what seems to be prevalent at the time.

[ShadowLurker]

Unvote

GL is intentionally lurking and that sends up red flags for me.

[ShadowLurker]

I could easily see scum passing a Cop Artifact. Anyway, I'm almost sure our two scum are in the group of {DogMom, Apeiron, Nai}

[ShadowLurker]

<pant> <pant> <pant>

OK, I'm finally caught up.
Dealing with stuff kindasorta in reverse post order. Sorta.

I think I can solve the problem of the M-M death last night.
I'm town (well, duh, what'd you expect me to say?)
GreenLiquid (my predecessor) started with a glass bottle of poison gas. It would read to other people as a bottle of vapor and no one else knew what it did. If opened, it would kill the person who opened it. It could be passed along, and was passed to Stewie (M-M's predecessor) on Night 1. I was told that on the death of the holder, I should get the bottle back. No indication if that was "after use" or "if the person is NKed before using". However, the stuff's not magical poison gas, so I'm assuming it's not auto-replenishing, either.
So,

if

that's the "empty glass bottle" found with M-M (which seems logical), then I'm guessing it's a one-shot kill, and we don't have to worry about scum getting it. If I get it back, though, with this reveal I've shot the possibility of offing a scum at night with it by passing it along to a scum and them (hopefully) opening it. However, since we're in LYLO, and there's no way to force someone to open the thing, and I'd rather not take the chance of having another townie die anyway, I figure it's best out in the open.

More stuff to follow...

Well, I missed this post, but bleh, I don't really buy this at all from a protown perspective.

1. Passing off an artifact that kills when the player uses it RANDOMLY in a game where artifacts = roles and a person would have no reason to use an unknown artifact unless he had other info or was using other artifacts?

2. Not telling a double voter who is investigation confirmed when you were reading prods and such about this artifact with 9 alive and probably 3 scum? While it would nullify it, I find a double vote much more useful in that situation because assuming 1 night kill, it's 8 alive and 3 scum in which it's LYLO with the possibility of no lynch. With a double voter, you can have a chance with 6 alive and 3 scum. And the not being sure about his alignment doesn't really hold up either seeing as there was an innocent investigation and GL didn't suspect M-M.

3. I don't see M-M using an unknown artifact over a double vote but this point is probably neglible seeing as I doubt DogMom would make up a claim to lie about an artifact like this.

4. Lastly, the two modified 1 shot vigs bother me in a setup already with an SK and mafia. Coron's seems legit and Coron's play seems to follow his actions so this one is not sitting well with me especially combined with point #2.

Ugh I really really hate this game now. Before, I was sold on Nai/Apeiron, now I think it's more likely GL and one of Nai/Apeiron is stupid. (probably Apeiron)

[ShadowLurker]

Nai, your logic is so stupid it astounds me. Why would we randomly assume half the game must be town if they're telling the truth from their abilities? Why can't I be telling the truth about my artifacts? The only way that conclusion could follow is if you think an artifact kills but even then we have no way of confirming that you don't have other artifacts. That again looks like a construed argument from you.

Hey DogMom, how did you go from GL looks scummy I can't answer any of your questions to GL had good reason in your response to Zindaras.

First, you give a false choice, GL could've held onto it for a night, or two, and not PASSED A KILLING ARTIFACT RANDOMLY OFF THE FIRST NIGHT. You can pass as many artifacts as you want off in a night. Next, "Obviously it was opened up and tried out, but GL had no way of knowing that it would be." Are you really trying to imply that GL might think that someone would NOT use an unknown power passed to them?

I was liking you a lot more than Nai in your argument with him but this sudden turnaround does not sit well at all in my eyes.especially considering it feels like an attempt to turn it onto Zindaras.

[ShadowLurker]

BUMP

Honestly Apeiron, can't you give any justification for the various things that have been pointed out against you other than this:

Well, it's not me. Not sure what more I can say about it

?

[ShadowLurker]

Bump.

Mod: Can we deadline this day and prod everyone?

I'm starting to lose interest and that is never good.

I'm not going to be here this weekend but it doesn't look like it'll matter.

Liking DogMom more again as she seems to be using more logic. We seriously need to get a moveon and make a decision. If anyone's unclear about any of my stances on people or why I have that stance then just ask. I feel like I've said what I feel about everyone and pointed out how my stances have been evolving.

Tonight I'm going to spread artifacts around so hopefully some of them will get through no matter what seeing my horrible luck with passing artifacts.

Where IS that post Zindaras promised? Seeing as how I've mostly excluded him due to everyone else being scummier, his claim and interactions around that which I felt were genuine, it'd be nice to hear something updated from him.

I don't need a prod.

Hmm I usually remember you being much more decisive like you were earlier this game. We really need to make a decision. If you believe NL is the best decision, say so.


NL/Apeiron/Nai all seem logical to me. DogMom will need a bit of persuasion, Zindaras more, and Coron most.

[ShadowLurker]

As for this thread, I think it would be best to do a No-Lynch and hope for only one, or zero, night kills tonight.

Why are you hoping for 0 night kills tonight if you're advocating no lynch. This makes no sense to me.


As I've said many many times before DogMom, I think Apeiron/Nai is the most reasonable scumpair. I think NL is a reasonable choice but even if we didn't want to, it doesn't look like we'll be able to avoid a NL anyway so I'm just letting it happen and crossing my fingers for night.

[ShadowLurker]

I'm hoping for 0 kills because even that gives us information. We can then go back over today and see what we can deduce.

Why did you not go over the day

today

and try to deduce anything? How does 0 kills give us any information? What I basically just saw was you admit you were intentionally being unhelpful today.

EBWODP: Let's not forget, that'd also give us a free night for any helpful night actions.

You do realize that everyone has claimed everything and there's no actions other than possible passing artifacts tonight? The only way there would be usage of artifacts is if scum was lying and that'd mean scum was using artifacts which isn't very helpful.

Vote: Nai

This probably won't get anywhere but I like Nai more than NL now.

[ShadowLurker]

Found a lot of statements there that were fluffed/without a point.

VELY VELY INTELESTING!!

[ShadowLurker]

I'd just like to point out that the ONLY possible scum pairings are:

Nai/Apeiron
Nai/DogMom
Nai/Zindaras
Nai/ShadowLurker
Apeiron/Shadowlurker

because of yesterday's voting.

Note: This assumes 2 scum alive but I am almost sure we have 3 scum which makes your argument look silly Dogmom. We had two coppish artifacts, a doctor, reverse tracker, a vig that could only kill town, another viggish artifact, an artifact that could roleblock everyone in a night, (AND didn't roleblock a town) etc. If it was only 2 mafia and a SK to start with, the setup would be unbalanced in favor of town.

This means that if anyone thinks DogMom/Zindaras is scummiest, then Nai is still the best choice. The only time when Nai isn't the best choice is when you believe the scum pairing is Apeiron and I.

With that said, seeing as I know I'm not scum, I have to

Vote: Nai

.