<Mini 435> Julius Caesar Mafia, Player Abandoned

[Simenon]

Hi, everybody,

I hope you welcome me

to the game, I'll read it soon,

Unvote vote Simenon

[Simenon]

Sorry, guys, currently in the

middle of note taking right now,

Unvote Vote Simenon

[Simenon]

Okay, here are notes from

the first four pages, I hope you can deal with them,

Lawrence, Post 19- Gives me minor vibes, and the whole "he might be a power role" defense is sooo scummy, although he seems more newbie to me at this point.

Sarcastro, Post 22- Not getting good vibes from this post. Sounds like a newbie joke.

Eteocles, Post 29- He's harping too much on the random vote.

Eteocles, Post 34- What? Eteocles makes no sense at all.

Furthermore, it's scummy.

Miztef claims early in post 35. Not a scumvibe, but interesting.
What is scummy is his reaction to Guardian's post restriction.

Miztef is almost definately town.

Not liking Sarc right now.

Illumina, Post 40- Nice way not to comment on anybody.

Miztef, Post 42- Acknowledges the post restriction, and still votes him?

Lawrence, Post 49- Lawrence

is

still wishy-washy.

Fos Lawrence

Patrick, Post 50- Doesn't actually mention Guardian's post restriction.

Phoebus, Post 54- Phoebus seems town to me so far.

Eteocles, Post 61- lolfish

Lawrence, Post 67- Speculation on power roles, but rather indicative of a new player more so than a scum.

Patrick, Post 69- Subtle accusation there, buddyboy.

I find it odd ryan asks for new content in post 71 when he has posted almost no content himself.

ryan, Post 73- Ryan is obviously not reading the thread.

Phoebus, Post 77- Obviously ignores the "vote every post restriction".

Ryan, Post 78- Ryan again proves his uselessness.

Eteocles, Post 81- Says Guardian does not have a post restriction, but says Guardian may have a power role. WTF?

Lovin Phoebus here.

Lovin Illumina here.

Sacastro, Post 91- Hi, would you like to jump on the "too much assupmtions" bandwagon?

Patrick, Post 97- Way to say not much of anything this whole game, Patsy.

more tomorrow,

Unvote, Vote Simenon

[Simenon]

And predictably, ryan doesn't bother

to actually read what I wrote, that should go in my notes ,

Unvote Vote Simenon

[Simenon]

Patrick, I'm not actually sure

, but I don't see what exactly is wrong with it,

Unvote Vote Simenon

[Simenon]

It's because I said you

were useless, wasn't it?

Unvote, Vote Simenon

[Simenon]

Okay, I read the game,

here are my notes in

full,

Lawrence, Post 19- Gives me minor vibes, and the whole "he might be a power role" defense is sooo scummy, although he seems more newbie to me at this point.

Sarcastro, Post 22- Not getting good vibes from this post. Sounds like a newbie joke.

Eteocles, Post 29- He's harping too much on the random vote.

Eteocles, Post 34- What? Eteocles makes no sense at all.

Furthermore, it's scummy.

Miztef claims early in post 35. Not a scumvibe, but interesting.
What is scummy is his reaction to Guardian's post restriction.

Miztef is almost definately town.

Not liking Sarc right now.

Illumina, Post 40- Nice way not to comment on anybody.

Miztef, Post 42- Acknowledges the post restriction, and still votes him?

Lawrence, Post 49- Lawrence

is

still wishy-washy.

Fos Lawrence

Patrick, Post 50- Doesn't actually mention Guardian's post restriction.

Phoebus, Post 54- Phoebus seems town to me so far.

Eteocles, Post 61- lolfish

Lawrence, Post 67- Speculation on power roles, but rather indicative of a new player more so than a scum.

Patrick, Post 69- Subtle accusation there, buddyboy.

I find it odd ryan asks for new content in post 71 when he has posted almost no content himself.

ryan, Post 73- Ryan is obviously not reading the thread.

Phoebus, Post 77- Obviously ignores the "vote every post restriction".

Ryan, Post 78- Ryan again proves his uselessness.

Eteocles, Post 81- Says Guardian does not have a post restriction, but says Guardian may have a power role. WTF?

Lovin Phoebus here.

Lovin Illumina here.

Sacastro, Post 91- Hi, would you like to jump on the "too much assupmtions" bandwagon?

Patrick, Post 97- Way to say not much of anything this whole game, Patsy.

ryan, post 110- minor scumtell

Sarcastro, Post 111- Good point.

Ryan, Post 112- Ryan ceses to make sense.

meh, by now I'm convinced Lawrence's lack of stance is likely a playstyle.

Eteocles, Post 136- Way to fos here. This is exactly why people don't like fosses, they're so weak. They have no effect on the game. Furthermore, Eteocles says nothing about how Phoebus is defending himself. He really doesn't say much at all.

Eteocles, Post 141- Well, if you agree, it makes your argument pretty useless, doesn't it?

Phoebus, Post 142- LOVING Pheobus here.

Lawrence, Post 159- A bit dense here.

Ryan, Post 164- He's looking for scum, but refuses to vote someone until "all the evidense is in"? I smell a contradiction.

Lawrence, Post 186- That first bit is sooooo scummy. No reason not to vote Phoebus? How about, "he isn't scum".

Ryan, Post 191- He obviously wants an answer that pleases him.

Ryan, Post 193- I'm guessing that's the scummy kind of frustration.

Ryan has a lot to learn.

Nightfall, Post 203- Nightfall's analysis almost directly links with the opinion of the town. I find that odd.

I can't really see much oomf in Patrick's posts by now.

Ryan, Post 240- lolomgus.

Lawrence, Post 246- Again, wishy-washy.

, I'd mostly go after lawrence, eteocles or ryan, and I think my vote is justified on ryan, I want to see his reaction,

unvote, vote ryan

[Simenon]

What's exactly to see, you're

newbish fatalism, you're lack of caring about the arguments presented against you; do you realize that the town won't lynch you as long as you are town and can provide a reasonable argument against it; where is that argument?

Unvote vote ryan

[Simenon]

What's exactly to see, you're

newbish fatalism, you're lack of caring about the arguments presented against you; do you realize that the town won't lynch you as long as you are town and can provide a reasonable argument against it; where is that argument?

Unvote vote ryan

color=red]What's exactly to see,

your

[/color] newbish fatalism,

your

lack of caring about the arguments presented against you; do you realize that the town won't lynch you as long as you are town and can provide a reasonable argument against it; where is that argument?

Unvote vote ryan

[/

[Simenon]

Gah, fuck this. It's way too obnoxious to have to put up with this awful "restriction".

Guardian got a role which he found boring, and decided to make a restriction out of it. And he told me to follow by that restriction.

Now, generally, I always agree to do what the replacee tells me, as long as I'm not ruining the game. But I can't legitamitely play this game with this.

So, I apologize for giving up this soon Guardian, and wagon me at will. I fall the victum of a really, really bored townie (and, for some reason, the mod kinda confirmed). Watch the oppurtunistic scum.

Bah

[Simenon]

I'm not gonna sit here and constantly defend the fact that I am pro town and have been since the start of this game. There are three people who seem to have a problem with me and how I play and therefore instead of going after the scum in this game they are wasting their time on a townie.

Why shouldn't you defend the "fact" that you're protown?

Considering we don't know if you are protown or not, how does this help any townie that attacks you? Are you seriously about to blame others for not defending yourself?

[Simenon]

And, for anybody that cares:
the restriction was Unvote and vote every post, have five consecutive red letters, one sentence.
Now you can see why I stopped. :p

[Simenon]

[
Well that was quick to throw in the towel.

I can't do twelve pages of analysis like this. Maybe if I had started from the beginning of the game, but when I have to analyse ten pages, it doesn't work.

[Simenon]

Simenon, explain why Miztef is "almost definitely town" given that he hardly appeared in your notes and that the main thing you noted was a reaction you thought was scummy.

The power role claim, duh.

[Simenon]

That's not to say, him saying he was a power role makes him auto town, but the timing of it and the way he claimed it seems just right to me.

Besides, I'm generally getting a good feeling from him, after playing Communique (won't elaborate)

[Simenon]

<3

[Simenon]

ryan, I am not a newb. From the way you played this game so far, I'm going to guess I have much more experience than you.

Furthermore, there is no doubt the restrction is faked. The question is, whether Guardian faked it as scum or town.

Also, please answer post 300.

[Simenon]

I never find a reason to sit and defend myself constantly about being pro town as I don't think it's productive to sit and page after page go over and over my stance when it's not doing anything to find a mafia member. I haven't done anything scummish except get into a few arguments with a jackass that I let poke and prod at me till I lashed out back. I've been studying posts, re-reading the thread and tryin to get my top suspects in order all while trying to prove my innocence to people who could very easily be mafia looking to see if I have a power role. You guys can lynch me if you choose but all you're doing is putting yourselves at 2 dead townies after Day 1.

It's not catching you a mafia player, but it helps

us

evaluate whether you are one or not.

[Simenon]

Unvote
Vote Eteocles

[Simenon]

Yes, I planned for the excuse. I planned for it as soon as I replaced. I knew, eventually, it would have to come out in the open that I didn't have a restriction. The only other option was to say that I lost it during the game events, but that would make me utterly useless (yes, that restriction makes my posts utterly useless), and I really didn't want that to happen. Before I replaced, I consulted guardian on irc, who told me I could use that defense if I desired (or if it was impossible to be a good townie).

So yes, I had that excuse in my mind, and even that post in my mind, but I was determined at first to play the restriction. Once it became hard to, and I realized Patrick's "if you can do that, it's not much of a restriction" post was being regarded as valid, I posted my response.

I felt a full explanation was necessary. I was not going to post "welp, I'm done with this restriction, but I'm sure guardian had his reasons for using it". Guardian informed me that he used it because he was bored (before I actually replaced), so that's what I had in mind.

Also, I'm not convinced the ryan wagon isn't driven by scum. I'll keep my vote on Eteocles for now.

[Simenon]

I'm not voting Eteocles because I think he's a lurker.

I can't stop players from joining the wagon because of it, but please don't put words in my mouth.

[Simenon]

Ryan supports the lurker bandwagon. What a coincidence. I can't remember whether I addressed all the people saying "maybe Ryan is just inexperienced rather than scum". The two are not mutually exclusive. Inexperienced townies act differently from inexperienced scum. Ryan, in my opinion, is the latter. The fact that he's constantly lurking in plain sight and refusing to commit to anything but his OMGUS accusations is pretty good evidence to this effect, and once again I'm suspicious of people who are trying to avoid the issue by saying "maybe he's just inexperienced".

I felt I should answer this as well.

Most players, I'm assuming, imply that they think a newb is an inexperienced town when they say "maybe Ryan is just inexperienced rather thans scum".

Why does this make sense? Well, most newbies don't really know how to play and how to react in mafia. They haven't developed a way to play effectively. From what I've seen, most newbie town have almost equally strange and "off" reactions as newbie scum. They, being unused to how to generally play, don't know how to respond to a vote and don't know how to identify a legitimate attack from an illegitimate one.

So, scum generally love these players, because the more votes they have, the more scumtells they will display, despite their role.

So how do you go about telling the difference between newbie-scum and newbie-town? Well, you could adopt a personal "scumtell list", but because newbie players can be so capricious, I find this method unsatisfying. You could just ignore the newbie status and base your attack on plain straight tells. I think this is what most players do. But that I feel leads to misslynch after mislynch.

My way of evaluating a newbie under pressure is to first use my gut, but mostly see what kind of wagon is developing on him. Are a lot of my suspicions on this wagon? Are some players acting wishy-washy towards it? Does it look scumdriven? Is it piling on quickly?

In the case of ryan, I think his wagon is on a newbie town for now. And thus, I'm not voting him. I'm going to try to find more experienced scum, and analyze him later once we have more information. I think he would be a good place to look at later, but, to be honest, I think I can see this wagon as scum-driven easily. So I'm not going to vote him now.

And wowee, we see another post by Eteocles, and again, it doesn't say much of anything. Frankly, I'll wait until he posts something of actual worth until I move my vote.

[Simenon]

[Interestingly, I consider Phoebus' posts to be just as belligerent and unhelpful as Ryan's (though Phoebus posts much less), but there's (presumably) a significant difference of experience between the two players. What are your thoughts on this?

Hmm, if I may butt in, I have to disagree.

Phoebus has been both clear and helpful in his analysis. Ryan has, until recently, been utterly useless.

[Simenon]

Eteocles- I'm voting you because you not only seem useless, but deliberately useless. You don't take a side in things. You haven't made a vote yet that wasn't random. You say things like "I'm not sure who to vote for yet". That looks weak to me.

Basically, I'm trying to pressure you into taking a position to things. Summarizing the game with comments that don't actually accomplish anything is practically lurking.

In response to Simenon's post - Simenon, I understand what you're saying, but I disagree with your contention that it is "unsatisfying" to look at specific newbie scumtells. There are plenty of differences between newbie town and newbie scum, and in most cases I would say that it's far easier to read a newbie than it is to read an experienced player. From a few pages into the game, Ryan struck me as textbook newbie scum. Miztef, on the other hand, struck me as newbie town (though he might not be as much of a newbie as Ryan is, I don't really know). In any case, if you don't want to vote for Ryan because you think he might just be inexperienced town, fine. But I urge you not to give him a free pass. Newbie scumtells do exist

:shrug:
Perhaps I have a hard time reading newbies. I'll stick with my gut until there is more to comment on.

[Simenon]

Yes Sim, read my last posts, I have taken sides. I took sides on the ryan debate.

Is that really what you call a stance?
For our recollection:

Ok, well I'm still here. Sorry for lurking, but I've been a bit busy with the tests and all, kinda been putting off reading/posting. I think ryan's behaviour is being over dramatized, I don't think it is as scummy as some people are making it out to be, (sarcastro). I do however find guardian's (now simenon) fake PR very suspect. Not sure who to vote for but I think I still have a vote on sarcastro so I'll just keep it there.

Note the phrases "not sure" and "I think I have a vote". This certainly doesn't read like a clear stance on an issue to me. You don't even vote in this post.

I don't know how someone can be "deliberately useless". My vote on Sarcastro is no longer random

Scum are deliberately useless all the time. Not posting much of anything while appearing to be active and thoughtfull is a common scum tactic. What have you done that has been both helpful and insightful?

I think It's between you and Sarcastro. Do you want me to make it official?

Unvote, Vote: Simenon

I don't like your sarcasim, and I don't like being called weak.

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm being very clear as to why I am voting you. You don't like being called weak? Then think things through, add something new, and make yourself clear. The only time where you actually put the effort into doing that is when you are attacked or accused. I find that very revealing.

[Simenon]

Simenon

: I guess we disagree about Phoebus in that respect. He has been consistently clear, but I thought his reasoning towards Guardian earlier in the game was very lackluster and unhelpful. His gut instinct may have been really good on the fake PR (or maybe he was right for the wrong reasons), but his logic was consistently poor. I'm not sure his being unhelpful necessarily makes him scummy, which was why I thought he made a good parallel to Ryan. I think Phoebus' recent posts have been quite helpful, but not his earlier ones.

I'm not sure how you can find Phoebus' posts unhelpful. Wrong, faulty, scummy, perhaps, but unhelpful?

How is a townie helpful? By trying to catch scum, and being clear, among other things.

I really don't see Phoebus as unhelpful here. Maybe you could point out some examples in his posts?

[Simenon]

I will only consider changing my vote when Eteocles responds to my post.

[Simenon]

:shrug:
If ryan was going to be unsupportive in this town, better a replacement than a lynch.

[Simenon]

HI BRAZE <3

[Simenon]

Yes, Miztef, that was quite the flip-flop. You're not even voting me.

I cannot make sense of the application of lynch all liars in this situation. I'm posting content and being reasonable- the only reason why I'm even being considered for a lynch is the fact that my predecessor lied. Should you employ a strict meta game rule when the lie is completely harmless? Obviously not. If I'm serving the town's needs of trying to find scum, it makes no sense to get rid of me.

As thestatusquo once argued:
[quote=shea]Player: We should lynch any player that lies.
Me: Why?
Player: Because lying is bad for the town.
Me: Why?
Player: Because we'll lynch them if they do.
Me: ...[/quote]

Miztef- we obviously are not allowing me get away with it scott free. Scott free is not drawing a truck load of unneeded attention onto me. It's not being considered for a lynch by two players, with one seemingly too stubborn to move his vote (<3 you phoebus).

Lynch all liars is a metagame rule to discourage lying. But it's not a tool to catch scum with.

[Simenon]

Player: We should lynch any player that lies.
Me: Why?
Player: Because lying is bad for the town.
Me: Why?
Player: Because we'll lynch them if they do.
Me: ...

[Simenon]

Yes, I am doing damage control... as you can see by my posts, I'm not entirely ingoring the point.

[Simenon]

[

No, no its not. Not always. I can think of at least one example that I cannot refer to where it would have been a great idea. Bad townies can destroy our chance of winning more than anything the scum do to us. It's very close to that case here, but not quite there for me at this time.

Wasting lynches on bad townies will also destroy our chances of winning, especially in a mini game.

Am I really a bad townie?

[Simenon]

Unvote

[Simenon]

Simenon:
Speaking of unacceptable deadline behavior: Wow. You *remove* a vote without replacing it under deadline, without stating a cause, and you haven’t even been trying to find someone to lynch. I almost don’t know what to say.

1. Hmm, tricky. In this situation, how about saying something along the lines of "shit, he claimed Mark Antony welp better take me vote off".
2. You're accusation that I'm not trying to find scum is a bit much, thanks.
3. Again, it doesn't take a Roman historian to discover that I was obviously unvoting because of the claim.

I don't want to lynch braze, and obviously, Eteocles is not the lynch for today. Take your votes off.

Vote Sarc.

. I have felt him mildly scummy since I replaced in, and is a MUCH better candidate than these others.

[Simenon]

Simenon:

Vote: Simenon

. Your lynch will be enlightening after all. And more importantly, rid the town of a liar.

What an odd change of tone.

1) Why is Marc Antony obviously and definitely innocent? I see *no* reason why he must be.

If Eteocles had claimed doctor or cop, he wouldn't be obviously and definitely innocent.
He'd be worthy of our unvotes.

2) All I’ve seen you do since your initial summary posts have been defend yourself and attack Eteocles- and then you unvoted Eteocles in [479]. So, when you show me where you were trying to find mafia, I’ll admit that my accusation was “a bit much”. Until then, if anything it wasn’t enough.

So you're saying Eteocles isn't in your scum group? 8)
In all seriousness, I fail to see how attacking a player is not looking for scum.
And keeping a stubborn vote on Eteocles after he claimed Mark Antony would?

3) You had earlier given other conditions in [416]. I wanted to know precisely your reasoning for the unvote. It was not obvious.

Oh, come on. The unvote came right after the claim.

I see an attempt to paint me useless.

[Simenon]

My lynch was horrible.

[Simenon]

I think post 370 is the longest post i've made in a game.