Mini 493: Methodical Mafia - Game Over!

[Nocmen]

Wow...I come to find the thread has been up for about 6 hours, and already on page 2 with a role claim?

I agree with others, how would we know for certain there is a vig in the game? I can see how it would fit perfectly in this game though, but for the first time this style is being done, the playskill required to pull it off in something like this would be amazing luck, or would sort of defeat the purpose of a vig. A vig usually is the town's second lynch of the day, and without the day to gain information on who may be scum, the vig would really not have a lead to go on, making me think that it would not be here.

LML's plan: I think its scum getting us to try that in order for him to figure out all the powerroles the town has.

[Nocmen]

I agree with CES. Random lists are not the way to go (aside from maybe cop). Also, what if you have a role that does not require a list? Then you basically wasted our day giving us info that could be very misleading.

[Nocmen]

LML's plan: I think its scum getting us to try that in order for him to figure out all the powerroles the town has.

Nocmen, why do you think this?

When I first read that, I was like "This could maybe work, but I doubt everyone would be cooperative of him in order to get it to work right. If he can figure out how to limit down the possible scum it would work. On the other hand, if he is scum, he can use this to figure out who the powerroles are (if they believe and target him)." I just thought that because it would have a better chance of helping the scum than town (elminating a few people from possible Mafia would be good, but the mafia could use that to figure out who is power roles). I know that it depends on what side LML is on, but if he was scum, it would hurt the town way more than if he was town the way it would hurt the scum. Though thinking more, after I said that, this becomes sort of a moot point due to the fact that even if he was scum, the list would already have been made, but that still would help the scum greatly (they would know power roles, thus making them targets for lynch the next few days, and hell...they may have a way to get around the lists).

[Nocmen]

Yeah, Flay... I have some thoughts.

I think that we're all just playing with ourselves here. I don't think that any of this is needed. The scum are going to come up with their lists, and a lot of that will probably be random. The doc will come up with a list, again, probably just random. The cop will come up with a list, again, more or less just random.

Further, I'd be willing to bet that we DO have a vig in here. Stoof made a point of clarifying the rule that all power roles have to send in a list *unless otherwise specified in the role PM*. There probably is that provision in the vig's pm.

At this point, I think that we should just crack open a beer, sit back, get to Night, and then get our game on.

See...I don't agree with this. Sure, the lists may be random, but we are getting some good tells out of what people are doing. This is discussion that most of the game is actually participating in, and I feel it is good for the town. By saying you don't want discussion seems to me as if you don't want your scumminess to be revealed.

[Nocmen]

major problem on my end, i posted in the V/LA

[Nocmen]

I'm back, sorry about my absense, but I broke the cord to plug my computer in to the power, and couldn't get another one until today. Reread ASAP.

[Nocmen]

...While I don't like Glork's attitude to this game, it does seem like he really doesn't care and wants to be targetted because he is "useless". I also can't really tell if that is more of a protown or a proscum vibe.

Though I really don't like the way distad has come off so defensive during these last two posts.

Erg0...just jumping on a bandwagon...that seems to me the scummiest.

Vote: Erg0

[Nocmen]

I accidentally let this (and most of my other games on this site) slip. Since deadline is so impending, I will reread within a few hours, once I finish my school work.

[Nocmen]

I'm just going to start around page 4-5, a day or two before I had to leave due to my computer problems.

I don't like ojpower and how he may have slipped, as I sort of understand his post 80 as "People I target die"...and then after that, hes just trying to cover himself.

Glork - I don't like his post 100, as he mentions his list is random (if he has one), as well as the way he says "I've already thought of a mafia kill strategy that mitigates the usefulness of a Doctor role", which sort of suggests he might be bluffing with the random list and is really a scum that is trying to break this game. Though I may be reading too much into these things.

Vampaneeze Hunter - He just seems to pop out right after Glork says something that I do believe, and may be hypocritical for thinking about how lurkers and those not contributing as much are much likelier to be scum.

I still have a hunch of distad from what I've said on post 124. Scum really would be most likely to want to stifle the day and move into night.

BMQ- He went and blew what was IMO the same way I would think in this game was I a doctor. By going to do that, it would allow the scum to go and play around that had they not already sent in their list and/or not thought of that.

Xdammo admits he has no response towards what VitR called him out on...by admitting to that I sort of suspect him.

Start of Night 1: Randomly slain, from my guess, would be one that either is someone who kills random, or is allowed to make their own choices each night. I lean towards the latter, from the posts LML made over Day 1, I could see a Vig/SK shooting at him because of that. Seol, my best guess, would be from the list of the scum. Why do I think the scum would kill Seol and not LML? I think that the scum would want to keep LML alive in order for them to try to play his posts Day 0 as a source of his possible scumminess. Then of course, this is all WIFOM.

Xdammo does then go and question the night kills, adn the fact he doesn't understand makes me think he is that killer trying to play it off.

CES just goes "Get off Xdammo and attack BMQ". I don't like just telling people to attack others like that, even if you have past suspicions of them from the night before.

Distad votes VitR with no reasoning. Had to note this.

VitR and Simenon both go after Flay for reasons I don't see as that much of a tell. This could be a possible scum pair working together, or VitR could be trying to frame Simenon as a scum partner. Reading this makes me think less suspicious towards distad.

Distad then criticizes VitR for starting a wagon, but then votes Glork.

Erg0 also votes Xdammo without explaining himself. Like I said before, This could be a tell, but since it happens so frequently, I just have to note when it does.

BMQ then shows he doesn't think Xdammno is bad just because he questioned about the nk.

Simenon mentions we should lynch Flay again, and Glork just joins out without much explainaition.

Erg0 goes and mentions "Now this is a wagon I can support", and votes BMQ. 1 Vote isnt a wagon, I jsut see this as opportunity popping out. I pointed this out when I voted for him on post 251.

VitR keeps pushing Flay. Thinking more about this, I think this could be scum that went and put Flay a bit too low on the list, and now is fearful of him.


I might buy distad's claim. I'm really not sure though, as I could see how two cops would work in thsi game, espeically if both need to use lists. But I don't also see a reason for claiming Day 1, but I do alsot see how it would work.

List of my top 5 scummy:
VitR
CES
BMQ
Xdammo
Erg0

Unvote

for now. I want to think and contemplate before dropping a vote, but I will do one tonight.

[Nocmen]

I think the main problem is with VitR is that now, with his response and vote to BMQ, it is very suspicious, something like "Well, I can't get on the first bandwagon I want, so I'll join the second one".

VitR, another reason for your suspect is what your previous person said. I pointed this out in my last post, ojpower's posts seemed as if he slipped up to saying the people he would target would die.

[Nocmen]

Maybe you are right distad, but I really can't tell though, because that could have been made after you said you wanted to go to night. BMQ didn't go and discuss doc strategy until after your post 123...

[Nocmen]

The results of my reread were just posted in my huge post 30 minutes or so ago.

I originalyl became suspect of VitR before he was in the game, with the posts ojpower made around post 80 and continuing for a bit.

[Nocmen]

Well, I sort of feel better on VitR due to me overlooking the cop when he changed his vote to BMQ. It comes down to pretty much, do I go after VitR for what his predecssor said and he may have against him, or do I go with BMQ, who has just done some scummy things overall?

[Nocmen]

BMQ - I have heard from the other person I suspect, I want to hear from you.

1. I don't like having your vote on Simenon when I really have not come to suspect him much this game. Why do you feel such an urge to vote for him?
2. Why did you go do the thing regarding the best move for the doctor to take?
3. Why do you beleive Xdammno shouldn't be suspected for his reaction to the NK?
4. Why did you come back only during the final hours, even though you were being suspected constantly?

I've also come to look at my top 3 suspicions, slightly changed from the 5 I listed earlier.
BMQ
VitR
Erg0

[Nocmen]

Well, Glork, CES and Xdammno were the other 2 in the top 5, but for deadline purposes I've dropped them because I doubt they will get enough to be lynched at any rate.

But I really want to hear BMQ answer the questions in my last post.

[Nocmen]

EBWOP: That was referring as a talk to Glork. CES and Xdammno were the other 2 in the top 5, not Glork.

Also...Glork, congratulations, you just suspected everyone in the game!

[Nocmen]

Vote:BMQ

[Nocmen]

Simenon confuses me everytime I am in a game with him.

BMQ, your answers just seemed to go against what I have gotten out of the game, and just seem like a run aroudn trying to cover yourself. Also, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

[Nocmen]

As for Erg0, I sort of become more worried about him with what Glork points out in 393. The main reason now of why I am not voting him is I do not like the style Glork just goes and attacks him. While he has valid points, his constant bashing of Erg0 seems slightly scummy on his own, and I'm not sure if this is all a ploy or not.

Simenon's sudden change of heart is also crazy of how he seems so against BMQ, and after a quick read just votes for Erg0.

And Flay, I'm voting for BMQ.

[Nocmen]

I had just read that bit, actually, so glrok's post was new to me.

Horrible excuse, but that's just it.

Which quote...and which excuse?

[Nocmen]

I don't want to vote just yet because I'm still a little taken aback by today's events and I'm worried I'm just being subconsciously OMGUSy after that last exchange. That said, I'm really disliking Simenon's play right now. He's been on every major wagon today, and his sudden switch from being certain that BMQ is scum to being certain that he's town based on one vague hint from Glork just sits very wrongly with me. I'll admit that there's a certain element of self-preservation in this because I'd obviously rather lynch anyone other than myself.

I wanted to flag this now because I likely won't have a chance to re-read properly until this afternoon my time, and I know that all you North American folks will be in bed then. Unless I see something significant in the meantime, that's where my vote's going.

Why would you be taken aback by today's events? I can really only see that happening when you are scum. A townie would take the logical approach and wouldn't be worried. I hate to quote something like this, but "diesuckdie".

Unvote, Vote:Erg0

[Nocmen]

I have been suspecting you still since the first time I voted for you. You climbed in suspicion at post 369, and peaked at 425 over BMQ, in which I decided to vote for you in response. So don't go say it wasn't all based off a single post.

[Nocmen]

The fact that you say he is not going to die seems really suspicious in this game, and I sort of feel like you know the list and the order the scum will kill in. I don't seem to understand what else you can mean about the guilty result affecting a cop from not dying overnight.

[Nocmen]

BMQ, Erg0 is at 4 votes from my last count.

[Nocmen]

I'm goign to sleep, not waking up until past deadline. I'm satisfied with my vote.

[Nocmen]

Whoa whoa whoa WTF... I go to bed after Erg0 and wake up to find Simenon lynched? I have to reread this last page or two when I get back from school. And also, our doctor was the one who was making the randoml list...hmm. The best part of this though is that during the amazingly quick night (11 minutes), we got one of the scum. Now to look towards the Simenon wagon, as I'm pretty sure one of the scum had to be on there.

[Nocmen]

From what I see, I stay with my list of most suspicious from before deadline yesterday. CES has moved up a bit from his dissappearance, as if he is trying to avoid something. Behind him would be Erg0, for what was pointed out right before deadline. I could suspect more if you want me to, but why suspect 4-5 of the 6 people I am playing this game with?

[Nocmen]

While its possible...I really don't think the point of this game was to have a normal killing group mafia.

[Nocmen]

So you think it could be either me or VitR, and I guess the vote is just because I voted for you right near the end yesterday? And thats after you said you would want to vote for distad based on the info from your reread.

Vote: Erg0

, half of this being an OMGUS, half of this being for what problems were pointed out against you near the end of yesterday, and half being for voting me for what I feel is you just trying to get a vote on me in any way possible.

[Nocmen]

EBWOP: Another thing I noticed just now is what Flay said last week...we really could be in a ly-lo right now, if there is an SK and Scum. If we mislynch today, going into night we have 2 Scum (I'm assuming there is 3 scum total, if theres 4 then we are probably really screwed), 1 SK, and 3 town. If SK kills town and scum kills SK, then its 2-2 in morning, and the scum win. We need to be really careful about this all. I am still very confident towards an Erg0 lynch, and i'm still not sure about CES - he hasn't given much content since he came back.

Also, regarding distad's possible suggestion of 2 scum groups of 2...I would think that if there were two groups, Xdammno would come back as _____ Mafia when he was killed, not just Mafia.

[Nocmen]

My thought on it was that XD came up in "red". Maybe other scum would come up as "blue". The whole thing is pretty unlikely, though.

You know its quite normal for dead scum to come up as red...right?

[Nocmen]

Four anti-town players in a game this small seems a bit too much, especially since it could result in a two-day game. As I've said before, the town is already at a disadvantage because of the hampered nightchoices, I don't think we need even more to worry about. I'm still a supporter of the "random" SK that isn't really random theory.

I'm not sure what good speculating about whether or not we're Lynch or Lose would help anyway. I'd think we should try to lynch scum; if we end up lynching town, it's not like we have any control over if we have another day or not.

I'm more in favor of an Erg0 lynch today. I'm not absolutely convinced he's scum, but he did have two players convinced he was scum yesterday, and both have been confirmed pro-town, which has to count for something.

Is that referring to me? I was against Erg0 yesterday, but I don't recall being confirmed as Pro-Town. I think you are scum that just slipped and said that I'm town due to the fact I am not your scum partner. And pushing Erg0, why would you push your scum buddy that far, especially because his chances of getting lunced today are pretty high...

Unvote, Vote: BMQ

[Nocmen]

Glork and Simenon suspected Ergo. They are both dead, and therefore confirmed as pro-town.

Settle down there.

Unvote, Vote Erg0

Thats what I get for being hasty and not looking back before posting. I knew Glork suspected Erg0, and I knew I did, and I thought it was only referring to us two, not Simenon and Glork.

I'm such a dumbass at times

[Nocmen]

I always play agressive, but I only vote when I have a very good hunch on someone. I really think Erg0 is one of our scum. And I even provided you with 150% of reasons as distad pointed out (I also do that frequently, usually 3/2 reasons or 5/4)...

[Nocmen]

Because I thought BMQ was stating my town status as confirmed, and I didn't see where he confirmed me. Thus I thought the only way he would definitely know I was town was that he was scum.

[Nocmen]

Well, if you all think I'm scum, why not lynch me?

[Nocmen]

I am here, I didn't realize I had gone so long without posting here. I do see the one reason why I could be bandwagoned against, but that was an honest mistake caused by my trigger-happy vote.

My top suspects still are Erg0 and CES.

[Nocmen]

I am a tracker. I tracked CES night 1 to LML. That is why I have been going after him. I went after Erg0 because I honestly belive he could be scum for the reasons people bandwagoned him near the end of Day 1. I am also a strong beliver in the power of cross-kills, and that is why I did not pursue CES. To top it off, I really think CES is the second kill, as I really don't know what type of other power roles there could be with what has been claimed

What I wanted to do today was to try and lynch Erg0 as I still think he is honestly scum. Then it would be 1 scum( assuming its a 3 man scum)- 1 "SK random kill" - 4 Town heading into night, instead of 2 scum and 4 town, which I realize now, is shitty math, and the second is worse for the town and scum combined.

Unvote, Vote: CES

[Nocmen]

Shit. Thats what happens when you write a post in the morning, expecting you will be wanted to claim, and not expecting the lurker to return and hammer.

[Nocmen]

Wow. Nice job. Yea, I really got stupid Day 2. Basically, I was trying to play off against Erg0 as much as I could (told you he was scum) and then right near the end realized how futile it would be to lynch my scum-buddy and open up right for the SK kill that night if possible. After that, I also knew that BMQ was a power role, so I tried to go after him, which brought more suspicion. It was the day I got lynched I came up with an ultimatum, which was to play off CES as the SK. However, I didn't expect one thing: CES to return and hammer. Also, some of the lists are amusing to read.

I will post my feelings on this methodical style later on after class.

[Nocmen]

Flay wasn't scum though. He was the SK

[Nocmen]

But I don't want people accidentally associated with me pulling off some really dumbass moves.

[Nocmen]

here is what I wrote down in my note pad right before claiming:

Knowing the scum had a tracking role, I really wasn't sure if I wanted to try and claim tracker right near the end of the second day. However, people would use this in order to kill Erg0 (as the most likely thing to go with my past actions against Erg0 trying to distance from him would require me to make up a result and say that I tracked Erg0 to Glork N2, which is what I knew from my scum Point of View). The problem with claiming this is that I would open myself up so hard for an SK kill the next night, but I also wasn't sure if I would due to the fact there was also a claimed cop and doc out there. Though I did think of using it to try and frame CES as the SK, thus getting rid of another problem for the town and the scum alike. I pretty much figured out that the claim would piss off Erg0, but I wasn't sure if it would be better to have me almost innocent for proving a scum as scum. However, this would be very hurting if distad were to investigate me the day after. It came down to me deciding if I were to claim or not, and would then say I went after BMQ because I thought he was implying I was town, and that would be that he would have to be scum to know that. If I could get BMQ this would be amazing, as I knew he had a power role from the tracking result we got N1. My one goal was to hope if I got lynched, Erg0 would be cleared a bit more. I decided to later on just to go with the second path and blame CES on being the SK, thus clearing the path hopefully for the next day.


Added after my death: However, I don't really think things through all the way, and I got hammered in 2 minutes >_<. Stupid CES coming back before deadline. Or before I could get him lynched.

My opinion on the style of this game (Methodical Style, duh): It is a unique way first of all to go about doing this. I also feel though that it gives opportunity for the scum to get f-ed over much more than the town does with the abilities. It was somewhat balanced out by the number of cops, but overall it comes down to luck with the scum for them to get anywhere. Then of course, I thought SK wasn't methodical the whole time until the end, so I stand corrected.