Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[Rishi]

Hey guys.

I'll do a read when I get a chance. I know many players in this game, so, umm, hi.

[Rishi]

Was planning to read the thread last night, but couldn't get on due to the server issues. I apologize for that. I promise, as long as the server is stable, that I will do a read tonight.

[Rishi]

Okay, guys, I did a quick read. I have no idea how we're going to get to ten votes on anyone before deadline.

I do believe Antithesis' claim. Normally, this would give me reason to suspect Bookitty, as the person who was pushing hardest for a Mills/Antithesis lynch. However, as I was reading the thread, I think that Bookitty's analysis made sense. If it weren't for the claim, then I would have been inclined to jump on that wagon. So, I think that Bookitty is off the hook for now.

I did an isolated re-read on DS/Eteocles and there's nothing there. There's just a bunch of bad, bad play. Not even necessarily scummy play, but just annoying stuff. Bad play isn't necessarily scummy play. I think it's an easy target.

One thing that stuck out at me during the re-read was that The Fonz was really active towards the beginning of the game, and has been noticeably absent as we're approaching deadline, while leaving a fairly useless vote on OGML. I know his signature says he's really busy at this time of the year, but he has posted a little in other threads. I know there's other lurkers - but it seems that most of them were lurking since the beginning of the game, so it's less noticeable.

I'm not convinced The Fonz is scum. Just would like to see him post. So,

Vote: The Fonz

in hopes of getting some content from him.

[Rishi]

Hmm. Re-read the rules. We only need five to lynch someone. We could probably do that. I'll be around until deadline. Don't want to blatantly bandwagon someone, but could be convinced by a good argument.

[Rishi]

Well, after I posted that, other people chimed in with suspicions on OGML, which means that I might need to do a re-read on him. You could be right.

But, as I said, I don't necessarily find you scummy, Fonz, but I just wanted you to post.

Unvote

[Rishi]

The only person likely to be lynched is Eteocles, and I think he's a bad player, not a scummy player.

No Lynch does hurt the town, but until I see a viable counter-wagon, I'm not going to jump on one. I just replaced into the game, so it's hard for me to get a strong impression on anyone as scum.

[Rishi]

I plan to take a hard look at Dark Ermac, egruntz, and Panzerjager tomorrow.

So I was reading some posts by dead guys, and this was Xyl's last post, which I find interesting. It's possible that he could have put a scumbuddy on this list for some distancing. People today have already given some suspicious on egruntz and Dark Ermac today, and I would seriously doubt all three of the people on this list are scum. I would even doubt that two of the people on this list are scum, unless they are part of different scum groups.

Panz could be scum, but it's unlikely. He went after CKD pretty hard on Day 1. It's possible if there's a pro-town killer (probably vigilante), they might have killed CKD or an opposing scum group might have tried to eliminate someone. However, I don't think Panz would be responsible for this kill. It would be easier for him to try and get CKD lynched, so there's no reason to waste a NK on it.

Still, I wouldn't put Panz high on a scum list. I know he's an aggressive player. That leaves egruntz and Dark Ermac. Do people really think that Xyl would name two scumbuddies in the same post? Now, I could possibly see those two being in different groups, but I have my doubts. I can't really see them both being scum, and there's a good chance that neither of them are.

I should also note that Fonz went after OGML pretty hard on Day 1. I also noticed that CKD had some suspicions. I did a quick glance over OGML's posts (which I intended to do towards the end of Day 1), and I think Fonz might have been on to something. More later, but for now:

Vote: OGML

[Rishi]

Snaps, your arguments based on number of posts are a little invalid; a good player can post little but contribute more than others. See: Battlemage.

Are you saying Battle Mage is a good player?

[Rishi]

I'm having flashbacks to Twofold Mafia.

Yikes.

Anyway, I meant to ask something. Antithesis, why did you investigate Bookitty?

[Rishi]

Dead Players:

6/18
2) Eteocles

DiscipleSlayer

,

Back-up Cop

,

lynched Day One.
10) The Fonz,

vanilla townie

, killed Night One.
14) Curiouskarmadog,

vanilla townie

, killed Night One.
17) Xylthixlm,

mafia goon

, killed Night One.
16) egruntz,

mafia goon

, lynched Day Two.
6) Korlash

Dark Ermac

,

Doctor

,

killed Night Two.

So I noticed something. Xyl and egruntz were listed in different colors when dead. Now, Elias could have done this for no good reason, or Xyl and egruntz could have been on different scum teams.

With three deaths on the first night, it's likely there's more than one scum group. Only one death last night, but that doesn't mean anything... especially now that we know there's a doc in the setup.

[Rishi]

Fos: the people who decided that it was better to just kill the scum quickly befor we could get any info out of them

.

I assume we don't have much scum left. How do ya'll suppose we're going to find them since we killed the one person who knew for sure before they could tell us anything useful? That was quite scummy.

Also, xyzzy - did you really think that you were going to get anything useful out of egruntz at that point?

I don't like this post. Sounds like xyzzy was thinking about what to say during the entire night phase. Based on what I know about the way he plays, I find it hard to believe that xyzzy was watching this game so closely, unless he was egruntz's scumbuddy.

[Rishi]

Vote : Rishi

That kind of 'in game' knowledge is usually a scum tell, I think!

You don't think it's odd that all townies are in green and that the two scum that died are listed in different colors?

Just putting forth a theory... I could be wrong.

[Rishi]

I completely agree that the two colors mean different scum groups, or, perhaps, a death miller. However, I am wondering why you , as soon as day started, went to the first page to compare the two mafia deaths and then 'announce your findings'. You made it explicitly clear in your post that you 'found' them, I think, in an attempt to make it look 'accidental'. However, with no out of the ordinary changes in the game, no odd roles, etc, why did you go look at it in the first place?

I don't know about anyone else, but I frequently look at the first post. I'm in a lot of games right now (probably more than I can handle) and I needed to remind myself which game this was and what had happened. If you guys can remember who was killed, their roles, and the current game situation off the tops of your heads, good for you - but I can't do it, especially in a game this large.

If you want to keep focusing on why I noticed the difference, that's fine. But, I think a lot of people assumed, when they strung up egruntz yesterday, that he was Xyl's scumbuddy. Don't you think this has other implications on the game, if they were not partners?

[Rishi]

Prodding Xyzzy and Liamcool. Anyone else you guys want me to prod while I'm at it?

I'd like a prod. Sometimes I get lonely when I don't get any private messages.

[Rishi]

I feel as though I should get involved in this argument, considering that it's about me.

Why would a "death miller" be called a "mafia goon"? That doesn't make sense. Perhaps Skruffs has inside knowledge of a death miller being in the game? (Okay, ridiculous argument!)

And, for the record, I never suggested that Elias made a mistake. I suggested that perhaps there wasn't a good reason he put the two goons in different colors.

Skruffs - if you are trying to determine my alignment, shouldn't you be asking ME questions? What does vollkan's opinion prove?

In any case, I don't think it's particularly healthy for the game when two players hijack the thread. It quashes all other discussion and, meanwhile, it allows everybody else to lurk.

[Rishi]

For now, I'm going to

unvote; vote OhGodMyLife

...why? A reason would be helpful if I'm going to say anything in my own defense.

Same goes for Rishi. You voted me yesterday saying you'd come back and give a better explanation later, but never did. All you said at the time was that Fonz and CKD had been on my case. Yes they're both confirmed town, but did you at least take the time to go see that Fonz's reason for voting me was for attacking xyl of all people, who is now confirmed scum? Could you find your own reason for voting instead of latching onto the confirmed townie's misguided reason?

Yesterday, I didn't have time to come back and post reasons for your lynch. It was mostly based on the fact that you've been semi lurking, and not giving much analysis on anything. A lot of posts with very little actual content is usually a red flag for me.

Yesterday's lynch developed very fast.

But you'll notice that I'm not voting you at the moment. Need to think about this. No one is jumping out at me as a scum suspect.

[Rishi]

and it's if we eliminate one scum group, it's easier to weed out the second.

I'm going purely on maths, which I'm horrific at, but this is untrue, based on the numbers we have left.

There's 12 players left. Say there's two groups of 3 (which, while not certain, is reasonably likely). That would mean we have 4 scum out of 12 players, or a 33% chance of lynching scum. If we kill scum today, and then lose two people to scum night kills, we then have 3 of out 9 left, still 33%. If we lynch scum from the same group as before, we then have 2 scum out of 7 players, which is somewhere in the region of 28%, no?

And yes, I know this isn't accounting for SK kills, vigs, whatever.

Even not accounting for SK or vig, once one scum group is eliminated, they presumably lose their ability to kill people at night.

Unless they're super-scum who have ghostly powers!

[Rishi]

Rishi: Replaced in late in day one. Pointed out that Xylthixlm and Egruntz names are different colors. As I stated earlier, I don’t see this as a scum or innocent tell as both are likely to point out the difference. However, this seems to be his only contribution to the game.

Very, very busy. Trying to cut back on the number of games I'm in, but the only way I can do that is by dying in games (since I don't like asking to be replaced).

March is going to be slightly less busy for me, so you'll start seeing more contributions then.

Still, I don't like the wishy-washy analysis on every player. What you're doing is much worse - pretending to contribute without actually providing any content.

[Rishi]

Lurkerhunting:
Yes, I am a lurkerhunter. Lurking is an anti-town behavior and must not be tolerated. Lurking causes games to stall, stifles conversation, and provides cover for the mafia. I will always put pressure on lurkers because of this. True, it is better for lurkers to be replaced, and if that is a possibility it is one I endorse. However, the problem comes when we have a lurker or few who post just enough to avoid being replaced.

Here's the problem, though. There are all sorts of reasons that people could be lurking, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with the game itself. Sometimes scum legitimately try to hide by not posting much, which might work in a game this large.

You're relatively new, so I ask you this. Is this your first game with two scum groups? The difference between this and most setups is that the scum are just as interested in scumhunting as the townies. Unless there's some kind of wacky win condition (doubtful), the scum usually need to eliminate the other scum group in order to secure victory. As long as the other scum team lives, a win is impossible.

So, yeah, I could see scum trying to fly under the radar, but most likely, they are actually trying to find scum. That's the tricky thing about this game.

[Rishi]

I'm happy with my vote where it is, but I also see and agree with the logic behind a Snaps lynch for reasons I previously stated.

Oh... and speaking of wishy-washiness (not to mention that this post is awfully agreeable).

[Rishi]

So FOS on the Rishi for trying to suggest that the scum are going to be scum hunting. All that does is make people skeptical of those who ARE town and scum hunting. Fos fos fos.

The game that I played with two scum groups (Twofold Mafia), the scum were fairly active in scumhunting and were desperately trying to get the other group.

You seem to keep pointing the finger at me based on anecdotal experience from other games. The problem is that you are assuming that all scum are going to play the same way. If scum always played the same, then it'd be pretty darn easy to catch them.

But, you are now saying that the lurkers aren't scummy and the people who are scumhunting aren't scummy. Who's left? Not everyone is town.

[Rishi]

The game that I played with two scum groups (Twofold Mafia), the scum were fairly active in scumhunting and were desperately trying to get the other group.

You seem to keep pointing the finger at me based on anecdotal experience from other games.

I find this interesting because Rishi starts with an anecdote about another game (as a justification for something he argued earlier). Then impugns Skruff for using anecdotes in his arguments.

The problem is that you are assuming that all scum are going to play the same way.

Didn't you make the same assumption with your anecdote?

If scum always played the same, then it'd be pretty darn easy to catch them.

If you knew this, then why did the topic ever come up?

But, you are now saying that the lurkers aren't scummy and the people who are scumhunting aren't scummy. Who's left? Not everyone is town.

I think he's actually saying that you are trying to be just active

enough

to seem like you aren't lurking without adding anything to the discussion in terms of scumhunting.

Good points. My main criticism of Skruffs, however, was that he was saying there was ONE METHOD of catching scum. I offer the idea that scum are scumhunting as a possible scenario. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But Skruffs, using anecdotal evidence, says that it's definitely not true. Well, I'm providing anecdotal evidence that it might be true. So maybe scum are scumhunting, maybe they're lurking, maybe they're doing absolutely nothing.... but I don't buy it if anyone is going to say, "Well, I know x is scum because..."

This is probably why it's hard for me to get a handle on this game. Add on top of that that there are a LOT of good players in the game (and, yes, some bad ones), and it's tough.

Many of you have played with me before. I'm always semi-lurkerish in the early game. As time moves on, you'll see me get more active and more sure about my accusations.

[Rishi]

Rishi, 26 pages and three days in is still the early game?

Day Three in a large game isn't early? There's still 12 players left.

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

[Rishi]

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

Is this an excuse?

Please respond to what has been said. I replaced in too, and I've managed to pull my weight in analyses. Not having played is not an excuse. It just means you need to try and make an extra effort.

I think it's bad policy to criticize people for replacing in and expecting them to do MORE work. I read the first 20 pages and have been participating. Why would anyone want to replace into a game if they're going to get crap like this?

This makes me want to participate LESS, not MORE.

[Rishi]

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

Is this an excuse?

Please respond to what has been said. I replaced in too, and I've managed to pull my weight in analyses. Not having played is not an excuse. It just means you need to try and make an extra effort.

I think it's bad policy to criticize people for replacing in and expecting them to do MORE work. I read the first 20 pages and have been participating. Why would anyone want to replace into a game if they're going to get crap like this?

This makes me want to participate LESS, not MORE.

I didn't say you needed to do MORE work. I asked you specifically to respond to the questions which had been asked. You misunderstand what I mean by "extra effort". It's harder for replacements to contribute. Thus, they/we usually need to put in some more effort than a normal player otherwise would. But, the mere fact that someone has replaced doesn't excuse them.

Fair enough. I'll respond to outstanding questions posed to me at some point in the next 24 hours. Probably some time when I'm not at work.

[Rishi]

I think Rishi is overreacting a bit to vollkan's comments, but I'm not sure whether that means anything or not.

No, it doesn't.

[Rishi]

So you expect to just be given a free pass because you're a replacement?

Unvote, Vote: Rishi

I did not ask for a free pass. I asked to be held to the same standard as everyone else. Then, vollkan explained what he said and I conceded that he had a fair point.

Did you even read any of the rest of the thread? And why is this vote coming four days after my post?

Yes, I know I still have outstanding questions to get to.

Bookitty - I just thought it was rather convenient that you expressed that you would be willing to lynch Snaps after everyone else started saying they were suspicious. What you had said about Snaps previously:

I'm suspicious of Snaps and OGML for another reason, though; the three people who voted egruntz AFTER he admitted to being scum were Korlash, Snaps, and OGML. I do NOT think scum would bus their teammate, knowing there were two scumgroups. But once he admitted it? Why not take the townie points for being in on the lynch?

A somewhat weak argument, IMHO. Also, this seems to be a far cry from being willing to lynch someone.

Snaps -- My suspicions at the moment? Well, I am working under the assumption that there are five scum remaining. A lot of people have speculated that there are two scum groups of three and we know there is a third group with a kill. Perhaps a vigilante, but, until we know that, I'm going to say serial killer.

So, there may be fewer than five scum, but I would highly doubt there's more of that. My predictions: Snaps (the lurker hunting is not helpful and once people started applying pressure, you started backing off), Bookitty (see above), OGML (No, this is not OMGUS, but it seems odd his vote for me would come four days after the post - is he not paying attention or is he scum?), liamcool (Comes out of lurking to state the obvious) and Phate (gut feeling here, though I've been wrong about him before).

People I solidly think are town: Antithesis (I believe his claim), Skruffs (Despite the fact that he has a vote on me, he seems solidly interested in scumhunting and makes good points) and hasdgfas (My previous experience with hasdgfas was as his mod and he seems off in this game. Since I've modded him as scum, I'll assume the odd play is the way he acts as town).

Anything else I need to respond to?

[Rishi]

I look at them and I think to myself that, if there really are two groups, both have agreed to kill the least suspicious, and therefore, those whom are most likely to be town.

And then I recall that this precise thing was discussed the previous phase.

I can't help but feel that it wasn't entirely a coincidence.

So are you suggesting that the two scum groups are able to communicate at night or do you think that they passed messages to each other in the thread?

This is really implausible.

[Rishi]

Rishi, out of curiosity, do you think it's likely I'd more likely be scum with egruntz's group or with Xylthixlm's?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this.

Additionally, I think it's interesting that Antithesis wasn't nightkilled, but two of the people Rishi said he believed were solidly town were.

I apologize for not answering this sooner. Day 3 ended before I could respond and I forgot when the thread opened again.

You were pushing hard for an egruntz lynch, from early in Day 1. If you were bussing egruntz, you were really dedicated to it. Couple that with the fact that you had few interactions with Xyl and I think that both you and Xyl are smart players, knowing to limit interaction. So, if you were scum, I would put you on Xyl's team.

It also doesn't help your case that you've been on EVERY lynch so far, along with vollkan (though I find vollkan much less suspicious than you).

As for my "most town" suspects dying, it does seem odd. I don't know what to make of it. I'm inclined to think of it as coincidence, though.

[Rishi]

Anyone else find it interesting that Bookitty is defending vollkan, considering they are the two people who have been on every single lynch so far?

And yes, I am pushing suspicions on in a lot of ways, because there's likely four scum. As we haven't seen three kills since the first night, I'm starting to think that a one-shot vig seems more likely than a serial killer. Also, I think it's better to push more people and get everyone involved in the conversation moving than to tunnel-vision and limit the scope of the investigation.

[Rishi]

Rishi:

The fact that you're pushing suspicions in lots of directions is a point in your favour. Your predecessor lurked until he got replaced; that's hardly winning you townie points by default.

I can see a link between you and Snaps, and so it becomes more likely to me that you are scum with him; but your own postings are the reason you haven't gotten a vote from me.

How do you feel I've defended Vollkan? Simply by stating that I think he's town?

Saying someone is town is a defense, of sort. Of course, no one is really attacking vollkan.

And let's be fair. My predecessor made ONE POST total. This doesn't suggest the behavior of a lurker, but of someone who never really played. It's likely he left the site shortly after signing up for this game.

[Rishi]

Saying someone is town is a defense, of sort. Of course, no one is really attacking vollkan.

And let's be fair. My predecessor made ONE POST total. This doesn't suggest the behavior of a lurker, but of someone who never really played. It's likely he left the site shortly after signing up for this game.

I'm not sure of the point of these comments.

Do you feel people should be attacking Vollkan? Do you feel that being active and thus on all of the lynches, including the one that hit scum, is a definitive scumtell? Is it equally telling against both Vollkan and myself?

Do you think lurking is a valid scumtell, Rishi?

What I am saying is that participating in all the lynches (and, yes, that did include one scum) seems odd to me. I guess I'm just looking for an explanation from you and vollkan why you have participated in every lynch.

I think intentional lurking is a scumtell. However, I think it's nearly impossible to separate intentional lurking from people who simply don't have that much free time or have lost interest in the game. Most of the time when someone looks like they are lurking, they have a perfectly legitimate reason for not participating.

Anyway, even though I think this conversation between me and Bookitty is productive, I would like to hear some others chime in. Thoughts, anyone? I especially want to hear from liamcool.

[Rishi]

Bookitty - Scum want to lynch people. Also, in a setup like this, they don't necessarily get "townie points" for lynching scum, since members of one team are happy to lynch members of the other team.

[Rishi]

Rishi: We've only lynched one scum so far; I was instrumental in that. If your best evidence against anyone is "They were on all the lynches so far", then maybe you could look at people who are defending others and trying to deflect from their lynch, rather than tunnelling on people for something that isn't even a scumtell.

Oh, and while I think of it, precisely why is Vollkan less suspicious than me on the same evidence?

Yes, it's my best evidence so far, but even I realize the case isn't super strong. If you've noticed, it hasn't warranted a vote on my part.

As for vollkan, the reason he seems less suspicious is all of his behavior that doesn't relate to voting patterns. Of course, especially lately, vollkan always seems town to me.

[Rishi]

What I think is funny is that Snaps actually thinks that he has gotten me to post by his "applying pressure" to lurkers. He has a really skewed sense of his importance to this game.

I'd be on board with a Snaps lynch, if a better lynch doesn't emerge. Snaps is relatively harmless, as Panz implies. All Snaps does is create white noise in the thread.

If we're going to lynch a lurker, I'd go with liamcool, but I'd like to hear from him first, just to confirm that he's actually lurking and not just quitting.

But, in the mean time, we may as well apply some pressure to Snaps, since he's here and responding.

Vote: Snaps

So, Snaps, how do you reconcile the fact that you've hunted lurkers before, and not all of them have turned up scum?

[Rishi]

Snaps..Your suspicion pretty much means your an OMGUSing tool. Your following Vollkan and Bookitty, not because they are actually town but because they are leading the game right now, and since I most wnat you lynched i'm definate scum. I'm most definently not scum.

I agree. It seems odd that all the people at the top of Snaps' suspicion list are people who are voting for him.

Snaps, I'm voting for you because I'm hoping that you can provide some useful content. Unfortunately, no such luck.

[Rishi]

I never support listmaking. I think it gives too much information to scum. It lets them know who the most townie people are, giving them targets to kill (especially since the scum in this game are trying to target townies rather than the other scum team). Also, it lets scum know how they're doing. If scum know their partner is on the verge of going down, then they'll know it's time to gas up the bus.

By the way, are people pretty much decided there are two scumteams of three? I just realized that I (and everyone else) has been posting under this assumption, but we haven't really seen any evidence of it. We could have two scumteams of two and a serial killer, for example. (Though, as I said in an earlier post, I think one-shot vig is much more likely than SK.)

[Rishi]

I said what I have to say about listmaking. If the majority still thinks it's a good idea, I'll cooperate.

I'm also willing to compromise. I'd be okay with listing my top four scum suspects and saying two sentences on each.

[Rishi]

TS, why do you think that we would have no more than two scum on that first wagon?

I believe that scum divides itself rather evenly across wagons, and off-wagon votes.

I think smart scum does this. We're assuming that scum is playing intelligently.

[Rishi]

Smart scum does this. You don't think I've been scum enough to know?

I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, you're probably right, since most of the players in this game are fairly experienced. But, we should always allow for the possibility of dumb scum.

[Rishi]

I'm leaning more toward SK than vig for Panzer, but either way, he's not the lynch for today, since I don't think he's a member of either of the two known scum groups.

But why wouldn't he kill every night if he was a serial killer? It doesn't make sense. I know I stated several times that I thought there was a one-shot vig in this game. A two-shot vig is not really a stretch.

Kison is acting a little aggressive for my tastes. I still believe Antithesis' original claim though, so I guess there's not much to do about that.

[Rishi]

]Kison is acting a little aggressive for my tastes.

Aggression in itself is not scummy. Aggression with poor logic is a different matter.

It's irrelevant, though. I believe your claim. I don't believe you're giving enough justification for your actions. For example, your unvote seems to contradict your previous vote. So, why?

[Rishi]

So, with the deadline looming, does anyone have a better idea than Snaps?

[Rishi]

@Rishi: You are voting Snaps. Why are you looking for a better idea?

I'm not necessarily looking for a better idea. I'm just saying that, if no one has a better idea, then we should just lynch Snaps. I hate deadline lynches. You can't get as much info from them. I think everyone who is just spinning their wheels should say who they are willing to lynch at this point. We only have five days.

So far the only argument against me is that I engage in “lurkerhunting”. That’s a pretty weak argument. I suggest a policy lynch of one the lurkers. They are hurting the game far more than I am. Also, like Panzerjager, I too believe one of them is probably scum.

Who, specifically, do you suggest? I think that most of the players are participating now.

[Rishi]

Both Phate and Xyzzy are serious lurkers so I would suggest one of them. I am also suspicious of Rishi and Xyzzy because they followed Panzer to form a bandwagon on me...

I can help you with your problem. I actually think that Phate is scum.

unvote, vote: Phate

Why?

[Rishi]

Also, Bookitty, I would like to know who you are willing to lynch. Stalling until deadline is a scum tactic. You are not voting, or really giving any opinions on people. Lynching is the only weapon the town has, and so close to a deadline, we need opinions.

I think xyzzy is more likely to be scum than Phate, but I still think Snaps is a better lynch.

[Rishi]

I really am curious why you singled me out for this, Rishi, when I was voting up til very recently, when I have been forthright and open with my opinions, and when I have posted far more recently than a lot of other non-voters. Can you explain?

Because you're active. You posted since I originally said that we need opinions from everyone on who they were willing to lynch. Snaps and Toaster Strudel and Panz answered the question. You posted and did not answer the question.

And, yes, I do want to hear the same from Kison, vollkan and Phate. I would assume xyzzy is willing to lynch Snaps since he's voting Snaps.

[Rishi]

Thanks for the answer, Bookitty. I think I need to do a re-read on xyzzy and Phate since their names come up a lot.

[Rishi]

Both Phate and Xyzzy are serious lurkers so I would suggest one of them. I am also suspicious of Rishi and Xyzzy because they followed Panzer to form a bandwagon on me...

I can help you with your problem. I actually think that Phate is scum.

unvote, vote: Phate

Why?

Scumputer result. Check my previous posts.

Could you translate the scumputer output to English?

[Rishi]

Scumputer data

I read it again, it's perfectly clear. Just read it. It's all explained.

It is clear, but what I am looking for is a bit deeper analysis. All of your thoughts are on the surface without much justification.

[Rishi]

Just checking in before deadline. After my re-read, I don't like the way xyzzy is playing (nor thedragonsprincess in her brief time in this game). I don't know if it's enough for a vote, and there doesn't seem to be enough support for a xyzzy lynch. I don't feel Phate is scum, at this point. He hasn't really been super active on the site lately, which leads me to believe he's disappeared or lost interest in this game. Nothing about his play seemed particularly scummy, though.

So, I guess my vote stays on Snaps. I'm not convinced, but it seems the best lynch at this point.

[Rishi]

Only one kill last night. Perhaps one scum group is eliminated?

Panz - did you try to use your power last night?

[Rishi]

Yeah, Panz, how do you know you were specifically roleblocked by Bookitty?

There's likely a roleblocker in this game, because of all the "No results" that came out of the cop investigations. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the roleblocker is Mafia-aligned (with all that "Mafia goon" stuff... and why would a pro-town player block the known cop?)

[Rishi]

I also believe Panz is town. I stated on Day Four that I believed his claim and I have no reason to disbelieve it now.

I really don't like how evasive Panz is being today though.

Also, curious about a rules qusetion: if Panz used his second shot and he was roleblocked, does he get his shot back?

[Rishi]

It makes more sense to look at the people who were offwagon on the Snaps lynch, or who pushed back against it (I would fall into that category) than to look at someone who pushed the wagon from the start.

I think the only living player not on the lynch was Toaster Strudel. I don't know if I buy TS as Snaps' partner. I'd have to do another read on him.

[Rishi]

Sorry for the double post. I also noticed, looking back, that Phate put another vote on Snaps in twilight. What say you, Phate?

[Rishi]

TOASTER STRUDEL WAS NEVER MENTIONED ONCE BY XY.

Truedat, but TS's predecessor, liamcool, was mentioned by Xyl and even got voted by him.

[Rishi]

I think PEG killed this game.

[Rishi]

I think PEG killed this game.

No kidding, now let's kill xyzzy. Or whoever we were lynching... I totally forget where we were at in this game.

Why is xyzzy a better lynch than you?

[Rishi]

I got my prod. Hi.

I want to hear more from Panz, especially. I don't like the way that he started the game on Day 5.

[Rishi]

I'm just wondering if Panz has given up on this game (either lost interest or feels he has no shot of winning), but I know he knows better than to say things like that without explanation.

Normally, I would vote Panz here until he started making sense but I'm not sure what the count is.

Elias - could we get a vote count when you get a chance?

[Rishi]

With six alive it will take four to lynch. Deadline for today is

Tuesday, May 13th, at 10 PM EST.

Seven alive. You forgot PEG.

Still four to lynch. So I'm not going to place Panz at L -1. I still would like some straight answers from him, though.

[Rishi]

3) To anyone: What's the precise case against Panzerjager? Is there something I missed?

You were suspicious of Panz earlier.

But there really isn't a case against Panz. He's just acting so evasively right now and now giving his reasoning for anything. I'm not going to put a third vote on him, but the purpose of my vote would be to pressure him into giving a straight answer.

Basically, right now, Panz is displaying anti-town behavior (not necessarily pro-scum behavior) and I want to know why.

[Rishi]

Before his claim, I was suspicious (and probably somewhat OMGUSsy, due to his repeated jumping on me without any basis for it). Since then, I've been pretty convinced he's town suffering from confirmation bias.

But don't you agree he's not being particularly helpful right now?

[Rishi]

*bump*

[Rishi]

I've lost track of this game. Are we lynching someone?

Sure. Would you like to volunteer?

[Rishi]

Ooh. Sweet! (No pun intended)

Vote: Toaster Strudel

[Rishi]

Ooh. Sweet! (No pun intended)

Vote: Toaster Strudel

Why so quick?

I thought an immediate vote without any justification would provide the most humorous effect. It's not like we're going to lynch anyone any time soon.

[Rishi]

Wow. I almost forgot about this game. Need to re-read. I'll try to post this weekend.

[Rishi]

Okay. There are actually a few possibilities.

1) Two scumteams of two. That means there is one scum left (egruntz's team) and the Xyl/Snaps team is eliminated. If this is true, our best bet is No Lynch. I find this somewhat unlikely considering there were two kills last night.

2) Two scumteams of three. This means that Toaster Strudel is correct and there is a scum duo, a lone scum, and a pro-town player. This seems a likely scenario.

3) Uneven scum teams. If this is true, then that means that Xyl and Snaps still have another buddy out there and egruntz has a buddy alive. (To account for the two kills.)

So, I guess we can assume that Number 2 is the right scenario. That means, for the town to win, we must lynch a egruntz-scum today and then hope that the two scumgroups cross-kill.

I'm kind of sure that Toaster Strudel is scum, since she seems to know exactly what the setup is, but the way that she was defending Snaps, I think she might be on that team. That makes her a bad lynch. Which means that xyzzy/PEG are egruntz-scum.

[Rishi]

I think it's 2-2 - seems most plausible, balance-wise.

Then how do you account for the two kills last night?

[Rishi]

So a second vig other than Panz?

Are you claiming vig?

[Rishi]

To test xyzzy's theory, I think we should all claim vig or not-vig.

[Rishi]

And then a full-claim?

Not necessarily. I think we have to explain the second NK first, so we should know if we're dealing with one or two scum groups.

I know PEG is V/LA, so TS, what do you think?

[Rishi]

Well so far the three dead mafiates only had the title of "goon" - maybe all the mafia is goons.

The 2-shot vig is dead. Only one night had more than two kills.

You know, you didn't really say anything with this post. I think there was an assumption that there was some roleblocking going on, since the cop never seemed to get any results and Panz had his second vig kill blocked (and I'm not sure why he would have lied in that situation now that we know he really was block). Everything suggests that there's a roleblocker thrown into the Mafia mix.

Do you think there's another vig?

[Rishi]

A 2-shot vig AND a vig? Mmmm... that'd be weird, no?

I forgot about the roleblocking. Mmmmm.

What's your list of suspects, Rishi?

Well, currently I believe that the setup is two scumteams of three players each. We have caught three scum so far, so I think that everyone but me is scum.

The only reason I'm not voting is that I'm not sure who is on what scumteam, and I need to sort that out, since, lynching someone on the Xyl/Snaps team is an instant loss for the town.

So I'm waiting to hear from PEG.

Also, please start reading the thread. We are in endgame. Laziness is not helpful at this point.

[Rishi]

I'll have limited access Thursday and Friday. I have to do re-read this weekend.

If the setup is two 3-men scumteams, I don't think you're the townie, Rishi. If you are, and only you know this for a fact, then the setup might not be what we think it is.

Everyone is going to claim to be the townie. Duh. Why aren't you? If you are claiming scum, which scumgroup are you part of?

[Rishi]

Rishi, your list of suspects?

PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!

Xyl/Snaps scum - YOU
egruntz scum - xyzzy and PEG

There's likely three scum left. What you are trying to do is score townie points by asking questions and pretending that you're interested in moving the game along, but you don't have me fooled. I'd vote you right now, but I really think you're on the scum team with Xyl and Snaps.

I also hate how you are asking these questions without providing any of your own content.

[Rishi]

I know this is a risk, but since PEG and I both feel that xyzzy is egruntz scum, and TS seems to agree, and xyzzy isn't really posting his thoughts on this game:

Vote: xyzzy

[Rishi]

i'd like to say i find it weird as shit that TS asks for my prod btw.

still pondering though... =/ i'll make a decisioun soon though

Yeah. I don't get that either, considering that you had posted more recently than she had.

[Rishi]

'Cuz I want to know where he's going to place his vote.

See, that's what's going to give me a big hint of who is scum with who.

Isn't that a tiny bit hypocritical? You haven't placed your vote or indicated who you're thinking of voting for either.

[Rishi]

That's right. If we have a pair of scumbags remaining, and I make a mistake, we lose. I don't want that to happen.

Wouldn't PEG be in the same situation? Couldn't you post suspicions without actually voting?

[Rishi]

Meh. I think I did well looking pro-town, but not so well at trying to eliminate the other scum group.

I probably shouldn't have bussed Snaps.

[Rishi]

I was trying to eliminate the other scum group from day 1, and it got me nightkilled. :(

Well, I think we should have tried to cross-kill more. I didn't start to try until the end.

Night 1 - The Fonz - We weren't absolutely sure there were two scumgroups, so we decided to off a good player.

Night 2 - Antithesis - Tried to kill the cop. PHAIL.

Night 3 - Skruffs - He was onto both me and Snaps.

Night 4 - Kison - Now that Snaps was gone, I could no longer roleblock and tried to kill the cop again.

Night 5 - Bookitty - This was an honest attempt at a cross-kill.

First game as scum, so I'm not sure these NK choices were the best. As I said, I was happy with my play in the thread, but this is probably where we lost the game.

[Rishi]

I really enjoyed this game until someone shot me.

Nice job, Elias.

That was me. Sorry. :(