NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)

[saporovirus]

OHAI GUYS!

AHEM-Mr. Buddy Lee: Asking people to clarify what they mean isn't the same as scum-hunting >_>

Meransiel's fishing is odd.

Taun, imo: kondi, Parama (I really really want this to be true <3), Almaster

My brain doesn't work too well right now guys. I WILL SEE YOU TOMORROW!

[saporovirus]

1. Kondi is town because he made a silly mistake.

2. I want Parama to be town because.

3. I went back and iso'ed Almaster, and he is not such a town read after all. He started the Hydra nonsense.

I do not like MBL's posts. But that is irrelevant at this point.

[saporovirus]

I'm headed to the lake today, where there is literally limited access. But I'll still try to post at least once per day or so.

Then I leave for China Monday, which will be an adventure.

Boards being over is fun. <3

Question: will China view Mafia Scum as a dirty website?

[saporovirus]

I am pretty not happy with everyone who got involved in the Hydra nonsense. I don’t think it yielded any information other than that Thor is going to be a little prickly. DH and Parama both put their vote on the Hydra after kondi explained his silly mistake- was that for lack of a better candidate at that point? I mean, I don’t really get it. I especially don't like how Parama just said it was because Hydra was a shitty poster. I'm going to have to look at that again though.

Also strange, imo, is DH’s speculation about 3-person town. And this:

Unvote, Vote: Meransiel

Not only has he been scummy, but if he flips scum, the 3 of us neighbors can rest easy knowing that we're near-confirmed town.

Yes, Meransiel wants to figure out the mystery of the neighborhood. THEREFORE HE MUST BE BAD SCUM TRYING TO GET US. WHICH MEANS WE ARE ALL GOOD BOYS. It is one thing to want to figure out your neighbors alignment, it's another to shut down anyone else who tries to get at it.

Meransiel: asking for PRs at this point is pretty bad, imo. I seriously don’t think we’re going to be able to crack the puzzle of the neighborhood today. IT IS A MYSTERY.

So if Meran flips Town you are in agreement that at least 1 scum is likely found in that subset of players?

This. Now THIS is blatant chaining lynches. And I'm saying this because I KNOW someone like MoI is not going to get lynched early: If everyone in the neighborhood turns out to be town, this guy must die.

I’m pretty sure he means the people who voted for you based on the PR-fishing.

As discussed - in my opinion he was using logic unavailable to him without an inside track on the QT.

Ok. Let's say I was using logic unavailable to me without an inside track on the QT. That would make me scum. Except you DON'T know if scum have daytalk. Probably not.

I think the idea is that you somehow made a “kondi is town s/p I have outside knowledge of this fact” slip. But that argument makes no sense to me. I don’t the Meransiel wagon is a good one, because it is good to use logic to figure out puzzles and I don't think his PR-fishing was scummy PR-fishing. I have a better one!

VOTE: Demon Hybrid

[saporovirus]

Let me delve a little deeper into this.

Imagine you're a town neighbor. You walk into the QT. You say "I'm going to lynch you, Neighbor #2" and he responds with "Hey, you guys are cool! By the way, it's cool if you lynch me, just do it later so I can confirm you."

Your initial thoughts:

1. "Confirm me as what?"
2. "Does he think he's a mason? If so, why is he okay with his lynch, and why doesn't he suspect us?"
3. "Confirm me as a neighbor? He's scum trying to fit in (and he knows what Neighbors are)."

2 didn't make that much sense. So, I went with 3. I didn't even think of 1; I thought he was talking about confirming us as neighbors, which didn't make much sense.

BUT YOU SAID YOU MADE THE SAME MISTAKE WHEN YOU WERE A BABY.

IF YOU HAD THAT THOUGHT AT ALL WHY WOULD YOU THINK IT MADE NO SENSE WHEN YOU HAVE MADE THE SAME MISTAKE?

WHY WOULDN'T YOU ASK HIM TO CLARIFY?

demonwagongogogo

[saporovirus]

I’m pretty sure he means the people who voted for you based on the PR-fishing.

I know what he meant. I don't see how that invalidates my suspicion of MoI.[/spoiler]

So you're suggesting that his contention that some of the people on your wagon must be scum proves that he is trying to set up a mislynch?

[saporovirus]

Don't like MBL's vote of Sensfan. It's

literally

the first time he's mentioned his name and he doesn't even attempt to explain it.

How many reasons are there to vote SensFan right now? If you give me a second reason, I'll give you a cookie.

How sold are you on that SensFan vote of yours? You don't seem thrilled to have company on the wagon.

Scumtastic, guys.

I am sticking with my DH guns for now though.

[saporovirus]

@ Meransiel:

Don't like MBL's vote of Sensfan. It's

literally

the first time he's mentioned his name and he doesn't even attempt to explain it.

How many reasons are there to vote SensFan right now? If you give me a second reason, I'll give you a cookie.

How sold are you on that SensFan vote of yours? You don't seem thrilled to have company on the wagon.

How is this not scummy? He's criticized for giving no reasons to be on a wagon, and his response is to be like YOU GIVE REASONS LOL. And what does "You don't seem thrilled to have company" even mean? It sounds like he's trying to imply something, but what is he trying to imply? And I just don't like MBL's style of posting throughout this game in general. He's basically just putting out a lot of noise. As I said, asking people a bunch of questions is not the same as scum-hunting.

[saporovirus]

Earworm:

Spoiler:

Reading over the DH cases since I have him as town...

Spoiler: Saporovirus

Saporovirus's vote: Votes basically because of DH's statement of "if Meransiel is scum then the neighborhood is town". Really weak case and she seems to be tunnelling it pretty badly. Also this section of her post is a real head scratcher to me.

Also strange, imo, is DH’s speculation about 3-person town. And this:

Unvote, Vote: Meransiel

Not only has he been scummy, but if he flips scum, the 3 of us neighbors can rest easy knowing that we're near-confirmed town.

Yes, Meransiel wants to figure out the mystery of the neighborhood. THEREFORE HE MUST BE BAD SCUM TRYING TO GET US. WHICH MEANS WE ARE ALL GOOD BOYS. It is one thing to want to figure out your neighbors alignment, it's another to shut down anyone else who tries to get at it.

That seriously doesn't follow what DH was saying at all. To quote DH later:

sapo, trying to make sense of the neighborhood and asking for PRs are two completely different ballgames.

To explain my stance a bit further: I got the sense that DemonHybrid was using kondi's townslip to draw attention away from the neighbors, as evidenced by three-town-neighbors speculation. I was also made uneasy by his, "well, if meransiel flips scum, that clears us all as town." I presume he was referring to meran's rolefishing, which seems like a pretty slim thing to base NEAR CONFIRMED TOWN STATUS FOR ALL NEIGHBORS upon, unless I am missing something important here. Also, two or three posts stating suspicion of DH =/= "tunneling." Nothing has occurred to change my read.

DH and Parama:

Did you try to ask kondi what he meant when he said "Go ahead and lynch me guys?" Did you have any discussion about what he might mean?

[saporovirus]

I'm not seeing this Hzres thing, Iec.

[saporovirus]

Ok, I'm going to go ahead and

unvote: DemonHybrid

. I am satisfied for now.

MBL, I will get back to your question in a bit.

[saporovirus]

MBL: I initially thought AGM was not scummy because the Hydra business was, in my opinion, pretty null but not an entirely unreasonable thing to get upset at someone about. I feel like his pinning scumpoints on PBuG was pretty weak. He said that arguing with Hydra about signing posts was not great, but also that Hydra was wasting time by going on about not signing posts. Both those opinions are valid and not inconsistent with each other; that argument WAS distracting. I think his latest vote for Snow White is undeniably scummy.

[saporovirus]

When's deadline?

[saporovirus]

@ MBL: My reads on Parama and Hydra atm are that they are not particularly scummy.

AGM: Since you are most likely going to get hammered, is there anything you want town to think about in particular?

[saporovirus]

vote: AGM

[saporovirus]

Meransiel, you're town.

No need to explain yourself further.

I NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF FURTHER. NOW ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!

Multiple kills?

[saporovirus]

FoS: Meransiel

for how he has started his play for Day Two. Looks to me like a scumpartner had a good idea during the night to "explain" why you would ask such a question, and now you are a bit overeager to "explain" it yourself. (Although this reasoning largely presumes scum cannot daytalk).

I don't think there was quite enough pressure on meran yesterday to justify taking that big of a risk in calling attention to it, and I am curious to see what he is trying to say anyway.

[saporovirus]

saporovirus, why don't you think there was "quite enough pressure" on Meransiel to justify him to

explain

one of the big reasons people were voting for him? Meransiel was the second-biggest wagon we had on Day One.

There was enough for him to try to explain AT THE TIME, but it seems like any sort of plan they fabricated to "explain" would come off as too artificial...

Ok, never mind, this is going into crazy WIFOM land. Let it just suffice to say, I want to see if meran's eagerness is actually genuine, because it might be BECAUSE HE MIGHT BE ABOUT TO SAY SOMETHING BRILLIANT IDK.

[saporovirus]

@MBL: I'm thinking mastin has to be scum due to 1) his claimed role being impossible (pending further discussion), 2) his choosing to not actually target anyone and 3) being like "DH IS THE SK HA HA SK PLZ KILL PARAMA." Could just be a joke, but why wouldn't he address that to the vig? Sounds like a cover for not targeting anyone.

[saporovirus]

vote: Mastin

[saporovirus]

unvote

vote: parama

[saporovirus]

unvote

vote: parama

Reasoning?

1. I am still not liking how you both jumped on the Hydra wagon after kondi "townslipped," but your play towards the end of D1 struck me as somewhat less scummy. I have to go back and re-read it to figure out why I thought so.

2. Parama's general "fuck off with your questions" attitude has been a bit strange. He could just be pissed off with the game but it's been going on for a while.

3. One of you 3 is scum and it's not kondi and it's probably not you.

[saporovirus]

Yeah kinda thought it was a bad gambit. I had visions of him claiming townie, though, and me desperately trying to convince people that he was just dumb and not scum and I'm so glad that at the very least he appears to be confirmable. Lets lynch saporo now plzkthx.

Don't do that!

[saporovirus]

As much as I hate to admit it s/p <3, I think saporo's D2 behaviour has been weird.

DEFINE WEIRD.

[saporovirus]

Mastin, why are you considering Parama over DH? You just really think DH is the SK because of the PBuG kill?

No, I concluded by looking at the first four pages that Demon looked like a classic SK, and Parama looked like classic scum. Additionally, with a SK, a 1-1-1 neighborhood is just too tempting to not follow through on.

This is likely the main reason both Demon and Parama have to call it an all-town neighborhood--because if they don't, then they've effectively scumclaimed via them mutually agreeing Kondi was town.

I MIGHT HAVE A DIFFERENT THEORY.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO REVEAL IT YET.

[saporovirus]

Weird means that I have a particular response to something, then you have a different one such that I begin to think at possible explanations for your different point of view. I am particularly troubled by a different point of view in your case in particular because our reads have been relatively similar this game.

In particular, I'm talking about your move to defend Meransiel at the start of the day. I thought it as unnecessarily robust. O_o

P-edit: I do not see what you see particularly, though I mean I suppose you aren't making it up.

I wanted to see if meransiel was going to come up with something exciting and I was never behind the whole "wanting to know neighbor PRs makes him scum" deal. What do you mean by "different point of view" exactly?

@mastin2: nope, not yet.

[saporovirus]

If you think about it, PJ has only one more name on that list than I do--Hydra.

My list consisted of five neutrals, two scum, and one SK. Which comes out to eight names.

PJ's list is exactly the same, only including Hydra in it as well.

If DemonHybrid is not the SK, what do you make of parama and DH?

[saporovirus]

Paramalynch is good. DH has been messing w/ my scum read on him lately. However I am kind of going to refresh my read of petroleumjelly now.

[saporovirus]

unvote

I noticed that you and DemonHybrid would do similar things in your play, and twice you both voted exactly the same way, except that DemonHybrid voted after you did, IIRC. Initially it was the kondivote, which came from n0 neighbor talk and thus made sense, but then you both switched from kondi to Hydra. At the time, I was ascribing a town motivation to you and a scum motivation to DH for this strange pattern. I was particularly hung up about the "makes sense, I did that once as a baby town" thing- it seemed like an over-explanation. Unimpressive to me, as well, was his constant dodging when pressure was on him. But his play late d1 and today seems much more helpful, whereas your attitude throughout has been sort of strange, because you don't seem to be wanting to put much effort in at all. Furthermore, I'm going at this with the bias that there simply can't be a 3 town neighborhood.

I am willing to wait for your amazing content though.

[saporovirus]

saporo, why did you unvote?

He was at L2 when I counted. Too early for anyone to be this close to a hammer.

[saporovirus]

And finally, would they all claim VT NOTHING CHANGES.

You kidding? That's a HUGE change that would badly hurt the town. Every VT that's outed dramatically increases the odds of the scum killing the real power roles. (And, no, I don't consider a neighbor with no other power to be a "power role.")

Is a rather drastically different opinion from what you just posted:

What the hell is wrong with expecting all the neighbors to claim if a tracker tracked one of them doing something suspicious? You do know that they're most likely either scum or vanilla, right? I can't remember ever seeing a neighbor with a town power role in a normal game.

No.

[saporovirus]

^ hmm.

Not seeing the "yos is scummy" thing so much.

[saporovirus]

Back, ish. Skimmed the walls, and say that Yosarian2 definitely came out of the losing end in the argument. Additionally, Demon's confirmed my SK read, which (by proxy) confirms my scumread on Parama.

No to the first thing. And where are you getting this SK read?

[saporovirus]

If you think about it, PJ has only one more name on that list than I do--Hydra.

My list consisted of five neutrals, two scum, and one SK. Which comes out to eight names.

PJ's list is exactly the same, only including Hydra in it as well.

If DemonHybrid is not the SK, what do you make of parama and DH?

Ahem.

[saporovirus]

If you think about it, PJ has only one more name on that list than I do--Hydra.

My list consisted of five neutrals, two scum, and one SK. Which comes out to eight names.

PJ's list is exactly the same, only including Hydra in it as well.

If DemonHybrid is not the SK, what do you make of parama and DH?

Ahem.

Oh wait...setup speculation.

[saporovirus]

Above was actually referring to the "where is this SK read coming from" question.

[saporovirus]

Howdy, saporovirus! It looks like you have nothing useful to do. So what are your thoughts on the following three players?:

a.)

Shanba

b.)

earworm (rep. Ythan) [who is apparently being replaced]

c.)

Hrezs

Ohai PJ! It looks like you are feeling passive aggressive today!

Shanba: D1 play -
1.voting sensfan for "parking" his vote on Hydra
2. voting for merans for role-fishing
3. voting for sensfan- presumably because his read on merans changed and his vote on sensfan hasn't? But his read on sensfan was based upon hydra-parking. Sensfan admittedly hadn't done much more than that at that point, despite the fact that other things had happened.
4. "Neighbors are boring. Oh well, I'll give in to the AGM wagon." That was his honest opinion about neighbors and it was close to deadline so w/e.
5. Points out MoI is using an inconsistent lurker metric.

Everything he has done has been not unreasonable. The only thing that troubles me is his avoidance of any of the many more interesting discussions d1. And obviously I would like him to explain his vote on me.

[saporovirus]

Ythan/earworm/pine is town. Hzrezs is nullish/scummy.

[saporovirus]

The two paragraphs are separate thoughts. The first links to a sapo post essentially attacking you. Which I see as looking like quite a (Tarh version) Chainsaw Defense.

No.

[saporovirus]

I realize you might not see the attack, but it's there for me, in the Tone of the post. It seems openly hostile towards you, PJ.

His post was hostile to me.

[saporovirus]

Howdy, saporovirus! It looks like you have nothing useful to do.

^ Passive aggressive.

[saporovirus]

Passive aggressive in this case was (correct me if I'm wrong, PJ) calling you a suspect. Which--while theoretically hostile in that town players want to get scum lynched--does not give off a hostile tone.

Your response, did.

As PJ said, he was being snarky, and that is how I interpreted it. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[saporovirus]

I was (i) trying to get saporovirus' attention if she was still online ("Hi!"), and (ii) being a bit snarky ("it looks like you have nothing better to do.")

saporovirus was essentially sniping at things without actually bringing her own theories on scum to the table. My implication was that if saporovirus had the time to make short disagreements / critiques of work other people put into the game, that she clearly has nothing better to do. So I took the opportunity to try and get her to do something productive.

"Sniping at things" = disagreeing with your attack of yosarian.

[saporovirus]

I was (i) trying to get saporovirus' attention if she was still online ("Hi!"), and (ii) being a bit snarky ("it looks like you have nothing better to do.")

saporovirus was essentially sniping at things without actually bringing her own theories on scum to the table. My implication was that if saporovirus had the time to make short disagreements / critiques of work other people put into the game, that she clearly has nothing better to do. So I took the opportunity to try and get her to do something productive.

"Sniping at things" = disagreeing with your attack of yosarian

without bothering to explain why I disagreed, or offering alternative suspects, or asking any questions.

Fixed that for you.

It is not my job to defend yos to you. I thought he did a pretty good job of it himself. He did not say "HEY MERANSIEL PLZ CLAIM NOW." He said, "IF you have role info, hold the phone cuz the neighbors should just go ahead and claim." This, at a point where meransiel was practically hopping up and down and going "oooh, ooooh, I have a role guys, ask me about my role." Which was not a great play on Meransiel's part, because he drew attention to his information from last night by i) pointing out that he had information and ii) bringing up the neighbors, which was misleading since he actually had no info about them. If you look at it in a certain light, Yos saying the neighbors should claim was a good way to prevent meransiel from revealing role info. I also STRONGLY agree that there are no town PRs in the neighborhood.

Your attack of Meransiel early d2 was crappy. Your attack on yos is crappy. Your "I HAVE COMPILED A LIST OF 4 CONFTOWN PLAYERS THE 5 OF US SHOULD LYNCH ALL THE REST OF YOU 9 LOL THIS IS HOW I SCUMHUNT" is crappy. Grandstanding does not help anything.

[saporovirus]

I am down for the Hrezs wagon. His posts of content have mainly been things others have already argued aaaand flakiness.

vote: Hrezs

PJ: You're killing me.

[saporovirus]

Saporo, yesterday you said you didn't see the Hrezs situation...

Wasn't paying attention to him yesterday.

Is too early to kill a parama.

[saporovirus]

unvote. vote: parama

Of course yos and PJ are both town.

[saporovirus]

unvote