NY 142: Rolling in the Deep, WAIT WAT? PARTY OVER?!

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Revenus

[bvoigt]

because like Beck said, he's just voting people without really caring about who it is.

[bvoigt]

bv did you read Revs posts before voting?

Yep.

what do you make of someone who does not correct a mistake and instead rolls with it? do you find it townie or scummy?

I think it's slightly scummy because townies should have conviction behind their votes, whereas scum don't need to scumhunt, so they don't really care about who they're voting as long as it looks good.

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

I think this contentless bandwagon vote is scummier than Zdenek's play. "Policy lynch go," to me at least, is not "clearly a serious policy lynch."

UNVOTE: Revenus
VOTE: funkybike1

[bvoigt]

Too many posts to read right now. I'll post tomorrow.

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: SodaSpirit17
VOTE: Revenus
Town lists are awful. You know who likes finding town? Scum. This is always a red flag for me when someone looks for town over scum.

Huh? Scum already know who the townies are. Can you explain this some more?

One of beck/pine is probably scum. Of course, considering Beck's record, he's probably caught another townie again >.>
Also David? You'd probably find a lot of similarities with rev.

This post is the scummiest post in the game.

Basically, both people used rather weak reasons to attack the other, which is kinda acceptable considering theres only 7 pages, but the fact that this happens at 7 pages is kinda suspicious.
A possibility is that beck attacked Pine, who is scum, for weak reasoning, and that Pine reacted and starting attacking Beck in retaliation.
Of course, there really isn't anything I can see that currently puts one on top of the other in terms of scumminess, so I'll just

fos: beck and Pine

I'll probably change one to a vote when a majority appears on one or if one turns scummier than the other.
pedit: just saying, but considering curfews, I wont be active at all on weekdays. I could probably crank out a few posts, but It'll have to take the weekends to start posting as much as i want to.
ppedit: wth. invalid form

Wait, no, it's this one.

UNVOTE: DavidParker
VOTE: theamateur

I think theamatuer is the kind of player who always makes himself look scummy. What exactly in those two posts shows scum intent?

[bvoigt]

I'd say Pine and Beck are both probable town.

[bvoigt]

Bvoight, this shows scum intent.

"I'll probably change one to a vote when a majority appears on one or if one turns scummier than the other."

Yeah, I suppose you're right. (As you can see, I skimmed.)

[bvoigt]

I'm sorry, Funky is scummy? Based on what? He's got three posts and no content to analyze. What, exactly, makes him more or less scummy than ANYONE? That's one step removed from calling someone with no posts scummy.

He voted for no reason on a bandwagon that appeared to be picking up steam.

[bvoigt]

Actually he bandwagon voted twice.

True...the first one looked like a random vote, but really it was also bandwagoning a policy lynch candidate.

[bvoigt]

I think that the case againt theamat is reasonable, Hiraki is being useless and I'm pretty much the only person he's commenting on.
I have no interest in lynching either Beck or Pine.

Pops continues to be scum, now for pretending to be useful by writing a long essay about town lists.

Interesting timing there buddy

That's pretty silly. Zdenek has played scum before, and I doubt he was lurking the thread waiting for someone to mention his name. I'm actually thinking Zdenek is town here based on the angles of the attacks against him.

[bvoigt]

I mean that the cases on him are lousy, and I'm guessing at least one of his main attackers is scum.

[bvoigt]

I think this contentless bandwagon vote is scummier than Zdenek's play. "Policy lynch go," to me at least, is not "clearly a serious policy lynch."

Zdenek has played scum before, and I doubt he was lurking the thread waiting for someone to mention his name.

[bvoigt]

@Be ck: Um, aren't those cases based on the same two things-- suggesting a policy lynch and lurking when pressure was on-- I just addressed?

Who has a town read on pops and why? Dude is posting soooooo much IIoA it's not funny.

I agree. I could get behind a pops wagon.

[bvoigt]

Two scummy people are happy with a lurker lynch. Fantastic.

What makes SodaSpirit legitimately scummy? Isn't he a lurker, too?

@funkybike1: Please explain what caused you to vote and unvote Zdenek, and why you didn't explain at the time.

Pine (because of his reads post, which has a lot of thinking I can follow) and Beck are both town.

I agree zde needs to explain what was bad about the post from that game, even if the PL was a joke (still disagree it was) he should explain his reasoning to single that post out

Sorgster voted a confirmed vote-stealer, an almost sure town role, who he thought was an inventor (for no reason as far as I know) and who claimed day-cop (which was not the case).

Why did this take 20 pages?

I kinda get it now. -sigh-

unvote

Still somewhat scummy, but no longer lynch worthy. Until I realize someone scummier,

vote: thamatuer

This post indicates to me that pops' read of Zdenek wasn't sincere. For one thing, he was saying earlier that "his early behavior seems like one of the scummiest things ever," so it doesn't seem like he would suddenly change his mind. Furthermore, pops' original reason for his vote was that Zdenek was backpedaling and saying that a serious policy lynch was a joke. If anything, wouldn't knowing the actual reason behind Zdenek's original suggestion make it more likely that the suggestion was serious? (Did this paragraph make any sense?)

[bvoigt]

I was going to unvote and vote pops, but let's see where this wagon goes.

[bvoigt]

V/LA until tomorrow evening.

[bvoigt]

The part that bugs me a out bvoigt was he said he was going to switch to pops, but wanted to wait after vijay voted funky, I want to know why he wanted to wait and why he was going to change to pops.

I explained why I found pops scummy here. But wagons are very informative, so I stuck with funkybike to see what information would come out of the wagon. In this case, I think I'll be able to get reads on ThAd and Slandaar because of the wagon, when I get a chance to analyze their posts thoroughly.

Also, I fully support the notion that I am newb town.

WHEN I GET IGNORED I POST IN CAPS LOCK. STOP IGNORING ME. GIVE US YOUR READS WITH EXPLANATIONS.

I'm not sure if you guys are aware of this, but Shattered Viewpoint is an alt. Because of this I don't really think his lack of explanation/content is a scumtell. I'll attempt to post a full list of ISO reads this evening or tomorrow.

[bvoigt]

Right now, I'm looking at Rev as likely scum, as he seems to not be contributing much other than extremely weak votes on lurkers.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Revenus

EXPLAIN YOUR PREVIOUS VOTES

[bvoigt]

Beck is still obvtown. I was going to say the same about Revenus, but I'm starting to change my mind, I think.

Statements like "youre both town" scream: "I know you're both town because I know who everone in town is and it suits my purpose to tell you who is town because guess what? I'm scum"

Isn't it reasonable for theam, as town, to have townreads on both of you? If he's scum, how does it help him in any way to say that two people are town? Obviously, defending townies just makes it harder to get mislynches.

Unless sorgster is scum too.

Congrats Beck, you have found another scum with your innovative ways.

Is this post helpful scumhunting in any way? It just looks like intentionally aggravating Beck to me.

[bvoigt]

I'll nitpick a bit:

2.

to me indicates that he is processing things in an uninformed, reasoning, deductive manner

hate to break it to you but this is an example of wifom. You are basically saying that you think he is town because he is doing something town would most likely do (btw, scum wants to look pro-town so they would do things to make them look pro-town)

That's not an example of WIFOM. That's the definition of a towntell: something that shows that a player is uninformed, and needs to use reasoning and deduction to figure out who the scum is.

Can anyone point me to a game where mafia did something so obvious like bandwagon vote 2 people back to back without any sort of justification behind it?

If you can than sure we can discuss it, but typically like Salandar said, scum wants to pretend to scum hunt. Funky isn't prentending to scum hunt, he is being completely useless and drawing attention to himself.

Can you point me to a game where town did that?

[bvoigt]

Towntells are wifom, just like scumtells are.

I've seen scum commit town tells and town commit scumtells

So now what?

This is mafia; anything can happen. That doesn't mean it's

likely

to happen. I hate the term WIFOM.

BTW, I watched

The Princess Bride

yesterday...on VHS.

[bvoigt]

Apparently I never did this:

UNVOTE: funkybike
VOTE: popsofctown

@slandaar: its not that I think you're scum right now, its that you're a null for me, and that your scumhunting consists of too many questions and not enough statements.
Most people that say you're town do not give a case, esp username. So yeah/
And funky should post info.

What is wrong with asking questions instead of stating things? Do you think it's scummy?

Revenus: Can you answer my questions? They may not seem like much, but I do think they'll help me get a read on you.

Rev, I need to know how much experience do you have playing mafia?

Revenus is at Glorklike levels and is (rather evidently) a grandmaster of the game of mafia. We are blessed that he has graced us with his participation in this game. His mastery of every nuance of the game lets him tap into scumtells everyone else misses

I thought that was Shattered Viewpoint!

[bvoigt]

SV - the way he plays is reminiscent of a friend of mine I play with IRL. The arrogance seems to be an attempt to intimidate us, and I believe is a bluff to make us think he's town through his awesome scumhunting.

Arrogance is just SV's style. It's not a scumtell for him.

REVENUS. FUNKYBIKE. STOP IGNORING ME. MY QUESTIONS ARE SIMPLE AND PRO-TOWN. IF YOU'RE TOWN, YOU WANT ME TO BE ABLE TO READ YOU.

[bvoigt]

Sorry, can I get the cases on me? So at least I can do something.in this game?

You could pretend you're town and look like you're scum hunting. That's always fun.

Ah. Sorry Zelink. Shall oblige you.

This is a really weird exchange. Town's entire goal should be to find scum, so why did you need Zelink to tell you to scumhunt? To me, this clearly shows scum intent-- doing what he needs to do to stay alive rather than truly looking for the scum.

UNVOTE: popsofctown
VOTE: vijay

Beck and Slandaar, what do you think about Screaming? Honestly, so many people say SV plays like an arrogant cockhead

regardless of alignment

, so I don't know if you will get enough support for that lynch.

bolded the important part

If he does it as scum too, it means he is impossible to read. So he is scum or we teach him a lesson.

No...the arrogance may be a nulltell, but there are other ways to read him.

[bvoigt]

(snip; check his post for the wall he quoted)

The reason why was because I had already provided ny scumreads, as well as the justification for my SV vote. Yet people still seemed to be considering me scummy. I was wondering what I could do. Which is why I quoted those posts to Zel1nk after that comment. He then disregards them and says I should make reads on every player in the game. I like how you took that out of context and made it look like I hadn't done any scumhunting whatsoever before that bvoight. Now I wonder why you would want to do that?

The way you said "Sorry Zelink. Shall oblige you", to me at least, shows that you saw his point, and you truly weren't scumhunting to the best of your ability. Didn't Zelink also misrep you and say that you weren't scumhunting when you'd already given reads? Why are you treating his misrep different from mine?

2. You are implying TheAd tunneling makes him scummy

Not really, you were implying tunneling is scummy, I was just pointing out ThAd did the exact same as sorg pretty much.

...and trying to convince people to vote ThAd because of it.

[bvoigt]

14 pages? Was I really gone that long?

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Revenus

I'm sheeping Pine, still working on a full list of ISO reads, and won't bother responding to anything else.

[bvoigt]

OK...I have 3 s'es left to ISO, but here's what I've got so far.

Town

ThAdmiral- He's providing a lot of content and seems sincere.
Shattered Viewpoint- Like I've said, the arrogance is not a scumtell, and I think this is town-NS.
Zdenek- He's slipping a bit toward null, but the cases on him early in the game were pretty bad. Also, I like his pops case.
Pine- I liked his reads post.
iamausername- His reads post also followed my line of thinking in many ways. Faraday has been equally town.
Beck- Yeah, he's not scum.
theamatuer- Initially a bit sketchy, he's actually been bring up some good points.
ZeL1nK- He definitely sounds like frustrated town.
mastin2- He's hasn't done a lot yet, but so far it sounds sincere.

Not Sure

DavidParker- All three of these slots need to post some content.
SodaSpirit17
sword_of_omens
funkybike1- He's just being deliberately unhelpful.
Slandaar- I still need to ISO these guys.
Sky
sorgster

Scum

popsofctown- I still think my case here is a good one.
ScreamingHawk- In #417 he called Pine town. But by #978 he said Pine was the "most suspect." Considering his lack of any sort of explanation, I find this scummy.
vijay2vasandani- Here's the case you've probably all forgotten by now.
Revenus- Yeah, he slipped.
Hiraki- He's a decent player, but he's not doing anything in this game. So far, his "calculated inaction" strategy has worked, but I'd like to ramp up the pressure once we've lynched Rev.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Revenus

I'm sheeping Pine, still working on a full list of ISO reads, and won't bother responding to anything else.

Actually, there's one thing I'd like to ask. Let me know if you have any important questions that I missed while skimming.

@vijay: Could you please respond to this post?

[bvoigt]

A couple of notes about that list of reads: SH and vijay are not scum together because of this blatant sheep vote. Vijay and Zelink would make sense as buddies because vijay's response to me seemed different than his response to Zelink. Pops and Rev could also be buddies.

vote Sodaspirit

Looks like that's where we're headed.

Soda and Rev have roughly the same number of votes, so here's his reason for choosing one over the other:

It isn't, though. I've already said why. The slip was bad, but not bad enough.

Pops did say Rev was town earlier, but to me, you've either scumslipped or you haven't. And it's not like Soda was a strong scum read; pops said here that he was pretty much null.

[bvoigt]

@vijay: Could you please respond to this post?

Both #1651 and #1654 are nice cases. But, I don't think they are today's lynches.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Revenus

I'm sheeping Pine, still working on a full list of ISO reads, and won't bother responding to anything else.

Actually, there's one thing I'd like to ask. Let me know if you have any important questions that I missed while skimming.

@vijay: Could you please respond to this post?

I guess that's reasonable.

[bvoigt]

Why did I randomly quote that?

[bvoigt]

I'll post this evening. Sorry.

[bvoigt]

@vijay: Could you please respond to this post?

Both #1651 and #1654 are nice cases. But, I don't think they are today's lynches.

Why not?

Lynching Rev was, and still is, my first choice.

BTW, Hiraki is scum.

Could you give a reason for that?

COULD YOU MAYBE GIVE A REASON FOR YOUR VOTES?

With the deadline three days away, I propose we take a poll.

Everyone, in your next post, please list anyone you would be comfortable lynching. Anyone who gets more than five votes, we'll continue discussing as a potential lynchees. Anyone with less, we table discussion on them until Day Two as non-viable lynches (and therefore wastes of our time).

I'm willing to lynch ScreamingHawk, vijay2vasandani, popsofctown, Revenus, Slandaar, or Hiraki.

Anyone who thinks beck is town needs to show a townish post he has made.

I can't really think of any particular post or anything concrete, but almost all of his posts are giving off town vibes.

[bvoigt]

Slandaar
Hiraki
Revenus
Vijay
Toxic
Pops

These are our options for today, in my eyes. Everyone should be on one of these wagons.

I'm growing more convinced that Slandaar is scum.

[bvoigt]

The first was my personal list of preferred lynches; the second was the overall most viable lynches.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Slandaar

I might as well vote him just in case he isn't modkilled.

[bvoigt]

ROFL


Pine, the only people who speculate on where two scum kills came from and say it's two scum team are scum

Vote:Pine

Bzzzdt. If there are in fact two scumteams, it's an important thing for town to know.

I see the funkybike thing ad nothing more than a disagreement.

[bvoigt]

*as, not ad.

[bvoigt]

If Funky had actually felt Hiraki was super-Town, he'd have said so at the end of the day when we'd narrowed the lynch down to a group of three that included Hiraki.

Funky is not exactly a player who's vocal and full of explanations.

[bvoigt]

He didn't give a single townread on D1 (unless you count himself).

[bvoigt]

I think that funky was told by his scum partners to claim vig if felt threatened. So funky claimed vig at a L-6/7 wagon, and when he sees there is no chance to get lynched D1, he claims that it's a joke. Of course, this requires there to be two scum teams, and that funky's team is aware of that fact.

Vig isn't usually a claim scum make because it can be confirmed true or not true. Why would the presence of two scum teams make funky's team tell him to claim vig?

[bvoigt]

Well they might have thought that town didn't know the presence of two scum teams, so if they noticed two kills, they'd think vig/SK

That would blow up on them as soon as one member of both teams was lynched or crosskilled.

It was very, very obvious that funky was mocking the previous vig claims. That doesn't change the fact that funky is scum for other reasons.

Which reasons would those be?

I believe he's referring to this.

[bvoigt]

Re-linking this.

[bvoigt]

Does anyone have experience with Pine as scum? I ask because my head is telling me he's obvtown, but in a previous game I played with him, he was town, but didn't appear obvtown at all (at least, not from my perspective as scum in that game).

[bvoigt]

And lol, vijay just admits he isn't scum hunting so he can't agree with my point on pine. That's classic

Yep, he's scum too.

VOTE: Revenus

I thought I'd done this already.

[bvoigt]

God DAMN do I hate when scum gives up when they've still got a chance. It's just bad sportsmanship. Like when you're playing a board game with someone (Risk or Stratego come to mind for this simile) and they eventually decide to quit when you get a little ahead. NOT THE POINT. Idiot. Whatever.

And if he's Town doing some retarded gambit, he's going on a blacklist so dark it'll be blurple.

PE: *twitch* "Longest" is already a superlative. Learn English more better.

Pine, what is town motivation behind this?

Scum gives up, I'm celebrating, not saying OH NO.

Now if you are scum and know he is lying, your reaction actually makes sense.

Additionally, right before slandaar admitting he was scum, zde made a huge case on you which I feel got over looked cause of slandaar's stupid behavior. I'd like you to defend yourself against that post, id also request that your defense not include any words that imply zde is stupid or anything remotely close to that.

You and rev have this weird thing of insulting people, instead of just proving people wrong.

Where is the scum motivation? If he's a member of the sole scumteam, he's happy to have secured a mislynch. If he's on of one of two scumteams (or SK), he's happy to have one of the members of the other team gone.

[bvoigt]

4th largest post count and yet not a single solid example of scum hunting. Tsk tsk.

How is this not scumhunting?

Good to see people agree with me on Pine.

Guys, is Revenus really the type of player to ever remain quiet as town? Look at Beck-- he resolved not to post for a while, but didn't succeed. This is textbook scum lurking.

I'm not convinced by theam wagon.

[bvoigt]

I'm not convinced by theam wagon.

Well what wagon is good in your opinion?

More or less the wagons I supported on D1: vijay, pops, Rev, and ScreamingHawk. You can also add Vel to that list for the insincerity of his reads.

Everyone seems to want me lynched... and I only have two votes?

VOTE: Pine... Scumpalooza? What?

Am I reading this correctly? You're voting Pine for using the word "scummapalooza"?

[bvoigt]

Here's a decent wagon.

UNVOTE: Revenus
VOTE: Velzanath

[bvoigt]

Here's a VT mislynch :/

OK. What was your rationale for claiming VT so early, when you were nowhere near getting lynched?

[bvoigt]

Scum are highly unlikely to claim VT this early. Velz's lynch is off.

Vote Pops

While I agree with the first half of this post... The pops vote makes no sense.

What exactly do you disagree with?

BTW, on this site, it is regarded as the best play to avoid claiming until you are at L-1, and someone says they are willing to hammer. This avoids unnecessary claims, which give scum more information.

UNVOTE: Velazanth
VOTE: Revenus

Don't you guys think this is scum intentionally lurking away the wagon?

[bvoigt]

Scum are highly unlikely to claim VT this early. Velz's lynch is off.

Vote Pops

While I agree with the first half of this post... The pops vote makes no sense.

What exactly do you disagree with?

@Velazanth: I meant to say agree, not disagree.

I don't think he is scum but confirmed town is a bit of a strech to say the least. The word confirmed makes it seem like a scumslip to me as town are only confirmed to scum.

Unvote
Vote Pine

I think that's too clearly stated to be a scumslip. Rather, it just looks like confident town.

I have a strong gut read on bvoigt that he is scum, plus there is something about the way he decided to play IC and explain what the protocol of the site was with regards to claiming that I have never seen him do before.

I am pretty sure I have played with him in a game where someone claimed early and he didn't give a lesson on claiming.

Plus I don't see anything coming from him that is impressive, he seems to be just below the radar.

Where was that? You're right that I try to avoid getting caught up in theory discussions, but I will speak up if I strongly disagree with something.

[bvoigt]

If there are in fact 2 scum teams, that explains why the Rev wagon has formed relatively easily.

Also, if we do have 2 teams, I would expect them to be groups of 4. I was in a 16-player game with 2 teams of 3.

[bvoigt]

That game had 37.5% scum. If this game has 8 scum, it would be 36.4%. I'm not saying the first game was totally balanced, but two groups of 3 doesn't seem like enough for 22 players.

[bvoigt]

Most games in general you have a scum who lurks most of the time to stay off the radar.

...and a bunch of townies who lurk just as much.

Guys, look at the sig. LOOK AT IT. Then go sign up. [/shamelessplug]

And sign up for my Large Normal too, while you're at it.

[bvoigt]

tbh I would sign up but that may deter people from playing

Up to you, of course, but I'd be happy to have you in the game.

[bvoigt]

Sorry, I don't have time to read this right now. I'll post for sure tomorrow morning.

[bvoigt]

I'm not supporting a sorgster wagon. His posts in general have showed a townish lack of information; for example, #2599 and #2604 might appear scummy on the surface, but I see them as a townie legitimately looking to find scum. As for his "slip," I can see the point of it, but his post makes perfect sense if he is telling the truth about his knowledge of Normal rules.

The Velzanath wagon is all right, but I still prefer Rev.

Goddam right you can call it self preservation. This is a complete fail at attempting to scumhunt. No shit I want to live. Anyone who's playing this game to win does. If I'm lynched as town does that help my team?

This is so scummy it isn't even funny.

I disagree. Like Sky said, getting lynched as town doesn't advance your wincon any more than getting lynched as scum. For this reason, self-preservation is not usually a scumtell.

What's with all the bandwagoning?
UNVOTE:

Bandwagons create lynches. Lynches are the way we get rid of scum. Getting rid of scum is the way we win the game.

Hi DGB. Right now, I think we're lynching Revenus or Velzanath.

[bvoigt]

@Revenus: You said that you've played with TheAm before, and he was horrible. Did he say things such as "I'll hammer a town read" in that game?

[bvoigt]

Also zdenek's masonbuddy should out

What made you say this in the first place?

VOTE: Revenus

[bvoigt]

I'm not sure I buy that.

[bvoigt]

Good news, someone is mod-confirmed scum.

Who?

[bvoigt]

Not to blatantly rolefish, but it sounds to me like DGB is saying that Beck has a cop report on Pine.

[bvoigt]

OK, so I really don't think Pine would claim vig as anything other than vig or SK. His killing ability can be confirmed true or untrue based on what he's said about the flavor. And theam's claim basically says that since he roleblocked Pine N2, Pine has to be mafia.

UNVOTE: Revenus
VOTE: theamatuer

[bvoigt]

In case anyone isn't aware, DGB is obvtown. She's probably good enough to pretend to do a town gambit as scum, but it would be awfully risky.

[bvoigt]

Actually,

4. Once you're lynched, nightkilled, or modkilled (a modkill ends the day ONLY if the modkilled player is pro-town)