NY 142: Rolling in the Deep, WAIT WAT? PARTY OVER?!

[Pine]

Hunh. I just re-read the flavor in the first post, and it seems to suggest that there's two gangs of scum. That would explain the double kill.

This thread needs more from its lurkers and less from people like me, who have been letting the lurkers get away with it.

[Pine]

Actually, my first suspicion was a vig or SK, but then as I was reviewing the surviving player list, I came across this:

The main problem was the Mean Guys Mafia clashing against the "turf" of the Rollin Heights Gang. Many nights have been lit by their gunfire, sometimes in directions that don't even make sense. Some have revolted the government. Some have picked up their own weapons. In this two block radius lived twenty-two neighbors; unfortunately, they all found themselves at the church holding a meeting only to find themselves right in the middle.

Besides, the actual scum would either know for sure (via their wincon) or suspect (via an understrength count) that there was another team out there. And it certainly wouldn't come as a revelation.

Also, "the only people who speculate on where two scum kills came from and say it's two scum team are scum" is a logical fallacy. Asshat.

[Pine]

I've always felt "Scum until proven Town" was a very scummy strategy. Most of the ScreamingHawk wagon just smells funny to me. Oddly enough, Vijayscum's 2091 is the only decent reason I've seen from anyone on the SH wagon.

And "two vig shots"? Please. More likely, it was scum attempting crosskills and failing.

[Pine]

The first is "suspect until proven innocent" the second is "guilty until proven innocent". There's a very large difference.

The first means that I continue to suspect you, and watch your actions, despite the fact that you're my strongest remaining Townread. Until I see evidence that, to me, conclusively proves you Town, I'll be wary but not condemning of you.

The second means I'd be calling everyone scum, because

no one

has managed to show themselves to be Town to my satisfaction. The latter is asinine, the former is reasonable.

[Pine]

I want to hear more from toxic. Also, TheAD and Slaandaar were going against each other a lot day 1. Do you guys think that's town on town or scum on town?

What do

you

think?

QFT.

Also, of course a vig would have shot Hiraki. A vig wouldn't have known that the suspicions of Hirakiscum were wrong. It seems you might have had reason to believe he wasn't scum, care to comment on that?

[Pine]

If a vig claimed either kill I would believe them tbh. Both acceptable shots.

That's my point. From any Town perspective, shooting Hiraki made sense. After Slandaar, he was highest in D1's poll, he was contributing nothing, and was generally suspicious. That funkybike doesn't see that indicates that he's not looking at it from a Town perspective. Indeed, the only perspective his opinions make sense from is as an artifact of the scum kill discussion. "Let's not kill Hiraki, he's an easy mislynch."

Vote: funkybike

I feel really good about this. Enough to put Revenus on hold.

[Pine]

Yes.

[Pine]

Also, you're WIFOMing WIFOM. Nicely scummed.

[Pine]

I don't see the dissonance. I think funkybike is scum. Often the scum night discussion revolves around who to kill and who not to kill; scum don't want to go after anyone too obvious for fear of a Watcher. They don't want to kill anyone too lurky, because it doesn't eliminate a threat. They DO want to kill people like Mastin, who are a great threat and haven't yet said their piece (Mastin is particularly dangerous when he progresses, and gets more so as the game progresses). And they definitely don't want to kill people that look scummy, like Hiraki, because they can be set up for mislynches later.

This is why I think Funky might be scum. Funky's team discussed Hiraki, but decided he was a bad target. That put him in a "why would he be NKed?" mindset. Once he'd stated that, he had to backtrack and call Hiraki's D1 performance Towny, which is ridiculous.

[Pine]

And if you ARE "that good," then you have reasons for your accusations. I'm asking that you actually share them with we mere mortals, so we can understand your so-called brilliance.

This was my main point as I looked over Shattered Viewpoint.

You're a fake. Only good people can flaunt about their good abilities.

You don't have these abilities, so stop trying to think you have them.

Looking back on this post, I'm not so sure about Hiraki being town. (Also, Beck has 250 posts now.)

BTW, Hiraki is scum.

Could you give a reason for that?

This is all funky had to say about Hiraki on D1. Noncommittal, and it doesn't even remotely set up the hard defense we're seeing now. Funky's exaltation of Hiraki today is fabricated. If Funky had actually felt Hiraki was super-Town, he'd have said so at the end of the day when we'd narrowed the lynch down to a group of three that included Hiraki.

[Pine]

Funky is the one that thinks there's only one scumteam, and I'm not sure. Besides, the quoted works just as fine if there are two teams. It's about analyzing Funky's motives, not about who actually took which shots. They're entirely separate issues.

[Pine]

Of course it's still relevant. Scum may not know who they're shooting at, and they may also not be shooting at the other team.

What

is

relevant is that Funky didn't see Hiraki as a sensible night kill. This doesn't make sense as Town, period. Let's consider the other options:

Funky is Town:

Hiraki had been absolute garbage D1, so Funky's later protestations about him being obvtown ring hollow, especially considering Funky's failure to support Hiraki at the end of D1. Funky is not Town.

Funky is scum, believes there are two scum teams:

Funky sees Hiraki as scummy, but decides not to shoot for whatever reason. This is the weakest scenario.

Funky is scum, believes there is one scum team:

This is the condition my theory really operates under. Funky and his team know Hiraki is just scummy Town, and discard him out of hand as a possible NK. It does not occur to Funky at first that he would be a good vig shot, and has to backtrack by absurdly calling Hiraki obvtown.

Funky is SK:

Serial Killer has to eliminate both scum and Town, but also has to avoid notice. An SK, especially in the early nights, only shoots at targets that are not obvious and are unlikely to be Watched, Tracked, etc. Hiraki was in the spotlight, making him a poor target.

[Pine]

Mrrh. Rereading my case on Funky, I may be falling victim to some confirmation bias in pushing it so hard. I still think it's solid, though not as fanatically as I did. Meh, need sleep.

[Pine]

It was very, very obvious that funky was mocking the previous vig claims. That doesn't change the fact that funky is scum for other reasons.

[Pine]

I don't see the suspicion of Vel, really. Pops is still on my list, though not as high as he used to be.

[Pine]

Seriously? Powerlurking, inconsistency, some displays of opportunism that I'm too lazy atm to prove, and the motive slip, which while not as strong as I initially thought, remains a glaring oddity in his behavior.

Thanks for the re-link, bvoigt. It really bothers me how effectively Revenus is slipping under the radar now that the direct heat is off. Compare his general play style before being wagoned to his current style. There's a massive difference that reflects a paradigm shift in his objective. Early on, it was getting a mislynch and dragging as many names through the mud as possible. Now, it's survival.

[Pine]

lolBeck

I'd ask you why, but I don't really care.

[Pine]

I think it's the fact that Slandaar is gone, beck is V/LA, and Revenus has been powerlurking.

[Pine]

And Slandaar. The three of them ended up being something like 42 pages combined or something crazy like that. Granted, I'm up there in post count too, but the majority of it isn't as worthless as theirs.

[Pine]

lolwhut? You're back to saying I haven't scumhunted and trying to pin the group's collective decision to put Slandaar and Hiraki near the top of the poll? I didn't even vote for Hiraki on the poll, you asshat. I actually opposed his lynch right down the line, you jackass.

[Pine]

Did you temporarily run out of stupid pills at the end of D1, and then get your prescription refilled or something?

[Pine]

No. I'm not rising to this bait again. Please dump that bottle of pills down the toilet and flush.

PE: Dude, that's just straight WIFOM. By your logic, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I had pushed him, I'm scum for trying to get him mislynched. I

didn't

, so I'm apparently

cowardly

scum. I didn't push Hiraki because I didn't think he was scum.

Hiraki would have been a really easy mislynch. Shit, now that I'm thinking about it, I

would

have gone after him if I were scum.

[Pine]

I got bored after the first 500 or so posts. Go fuck yourself, Beck. As of this, I am back to ignoring you until you pull your head out of your ass again.

Spoiler: Examples

Serious note: Can someone explain the proposed lynch on DavidParker? Sounds similar to the attitudes I recall about Deity Kabuto.

I'm going to tentatively label that a derpTown-slip. NewScum doesn't think like that, NewTown does - NewScum are part of the informed minority, and don't generally care think of or care about that sort of thing.

No, it isn't proof, but in the absence of evidence against him, I'm willing to give him a pass for now.

(See, Beck? This is how one scumhunts. You focus on more than one person at a time.)

Pay attention, ZeL1nK. Proposing a PL and backing off from it isn't what I acknowledged as a good point. By itself, that's nothing. It's the wishy-washy method he used to defend it, then abandon it, then tried to deflect attention from it that carries weight.

I'm enough of an adult to admit that my vote on Beck is partially inspired by my personal dislike of him, and my previous bad experience with him. It is, however, based on his unduly-aggressive, myopic attacks out of thin air, and the lack of scumhunting he's done. There's a lot of fluff in Beck's posts, and he's quite good at spinning his wheels to give the illusion of doing something while actually riding the coattails of others' cases. It's not an especially strong case, but we're still quite early in the game.

Yeah...going out of your way to call yourself Town is pretty scummy.

Overly and unduly aggressive play can be seen in a scummy light, as it can be indicative of overcompensation; at this point of the game there's jack all that is solid enough to go after with the aggression you've shown.

I'm interested in a truce here, Beck. Your case on me is crap, as is mine on you. Both are fueled primarily from irritation and OMGUS, and picking every little thing an antagonist says apart. We're wasting a lot of time on each other, and playing right into the "but you're only focusing on me" argument. Walk away from your antagonism against me, and come back to it in a day or so. It doesn't really hold water. I fully intend to heed my own advice in this matter.

@Slandaar: How is that "calling myself Town"? Town scumhunts, Scum scumhunts, even third party scumhunts. The only people that don't are people too wrapped up in themselves to do it.

Scum dont scumhunt, they pretend to scumhunt, you cant genuinely scumhunt when you know who the scum are already.

Scumhunting implies town.

This is WIFOM. The above quote damns me in either direction; on one hand I could respond directly and explain how I feel I've been scumhunting, implying (not outright stating) that I am Town, and you "catch me" labeling myself again. On the other, I deny the tacit accusation, and "admit" to not scumhunting. This is an example of early confirmation bias on your part; you've already decided how you want to view me, so you don't actually engage in argument and investigation, you just blather seemingly-clever lines like the above and then go "Aha!"

Also, scum DO "scum"hunt. Speaking from plentiful experience as a member of mafias past, in these large games, the number one concern on their minds is hunting for slips and evidence of third party threats, an opposing team, and Town PRs. If you're going to try to claim that wise scum just sit back and observe, you're just flat out wrong. Good scum are hunting just the same as Town, and they're looking for many of the same things. They damn well don't "pretend" until they see flips confirming them to be in the clear. Which certainly doesn't happen on D1.

I still want pine to respond to my request, but I think bvoight was on to something.

vote: Funkybike

Almost your entire ISO is evidence of your aggressive tendencies. I'm not going to spend half an hour or more rummaging through your posts to pick the ten most asinine things you've done. Most people that have commented thus far have agreed that you're extremely aggressive. Accept it.

Rofl, yeah, you found 4 scum when almost half the game has barely posted, you are a mafia god.

Sarcasm, dude. SV was mocking Slandaar, Beck, and the other twits who think they have rock-solid cases already.

One of beck/pine is probably scum. Of course, considering Beck's record, he's probably caught another townie again >.>
Also David? You'd probably find a lot of similarities with rev.

This post is the scummiest post in the game.

Basically, both people used rather weak reasons to attack the other, which is kinda acceptable considering theres only 7 pages, but the fact that this happens at 7 pages is kinda suspicious.
A possibility is that beck attacked Pine, who is scum, for weak reasoning, and that Pine reacted and starting attacking Beck in retaliation.
Of course, there really isn't anything I can see that currently puts one on top of the other in terms of scumminess, so I'll just

fos: beck and Pine

I'll probably change one to a vote when a majority appears on one or if one turns scummier than the other.
pedit: just saying, but considering curfews, I wont be active at all on weekdays. I could probably crank out a few posts, but It'll have to take the weekends to start posting as much as i want to.
ppedit: wth. invalid form

Wait, no, it's this one.

UNVOTE: DavidParker
VOTE: theamateur

This is a very good point. Also note the opportunism that theamateur has been displaying.

I'm good and pissed now, if pine and crackhead viewpoint don't explain why both of my cases are wrong (and actually can explain the town motivation behind their play) I'll push on these 2 mofos for the remainder of the game

This is an example of bad gameplay, regardless of alignment.

Beck, your cases are simply weak. There aren't really holes, per se, they just aren't nearly as significant as you keep making them out to be. You make mountains out of molehills, and react to every attack on you with personal fervor.

I'm really starting to have a hard time seeing you as scum at this point. I don't think you'd be this dumb as scum.

Oh, almost forgot

vote: shattered aka crackhead

Arrogance like yours is unfucking necessary.

This is also bad gameplay, regardless of alignment. Oh, and a superb example of your unnecessary aggression. Your case on SV amounts to "Oh my God, you suck! You don't agree with me, and then YOU VOTED FOR ME! I'm going to concoct an insulting nickname for you, and then vote you! Not for a good reason, but because you voted for me first!"

-----------------------
I would like to ask people to stop voting for Beck. He's not worth a mislynch. He's vig/SK bait.

Kind of at a loss as to who to vote for...I'm maintaining that all or most of our scum are probably hiding in the quiet half of the player list, and I don't have enough solid evidence on any of them. Meh.

PE: Okay, I reviewed the ISOs of all of our lurkers, and I like popsofctown's the least. It reeks of active lurking. I want to at least hear more out of you.

Unvote
Vote: popsofctown

I'm sorry, Funky is scummy? Based on what? He's got three posts and no content to analyze. What, exactly, makes him more or less scummy than ANYONE? That's one step removed from calling someone with no posts scummy.

Theamateur's ISO reeks of newbscum. I'll back a lynch on him.

VOTE: Beck
Because he has no friends.

I don't need to be posting. My opinion isn't going to make a difference with these terrible arguments.

I don't think scum would intentionally post this badly. Only Town will care this little.

Stop being failTown. Ignore the petty arguments and present your OWN thoughts. Don't kowtow to the attention whores, be your own dude.

I think I have enough partial reads (like the above concerning Hawk and Zel1nk) to do a bit of process of elimination for D1. Entries I felt were significant or warrant special attention are increased in size.

Town

15.

Pine

: I've read my role PM.

Maybe Town

14.

Revenus

: Finally, someone I have a solidly positive read on. I'm willing to go out on a limb and state that I find the cases and votes on Revenus to be without merit. Rev and I been on similar wavelengths (his words) all game, which to me indicates that he is processing things in an uninformed, reasoning, deductive manner. While his scumhunting is not as effective as I would desire, he is absolutely trying. Effectiveness is bred from experience, Rev, and you're doing well.

16.

slandaar

: Surprised to see one of my most dogged critics in this category? I'm not. I find stubborn confirmation bias to be an extremely Towny trait. I find his reasoning to be flawed in several instances, and disagree with him in others, but his tenacity for scumhunting is genuine, and damn it, he's trying hard. Boffo.

Towny Side of Neutral

01.

sorgster

: Seems to have a one-track mind concerning Zdenek. Has provided some reasonable analysis, and seems to be trying despite poor quantity of content. Can live for today but needs to be looked at harder.
07.

ZeL1nK

: Poor content, amateurish insistence of being obvTown, but seems to be trying and recently displayed thought processes bearing a Towny hallmark. Might be feigned, needs more investigation, but is acceptable for now.
10.

ScreamingHawk

: Scum lurk, but don't announce that that's what they're doing. Town, however, may feel lost and despair. This is what I see out of Hawk lately. Hardly reliable, but sufficient for D1.
20.

iamausername

: Dire lack of posts, but most of them have been chock full of meaty and nutritious content, sweetened with analysis. More please.
22.

bvoigt

: A look at his ISO makes me utter a hearty "meh". He's contributed, but not especially thoughtfully. His conclusions are somewhat similar to my own, so I'll give him a D1 pass. The biggest impression I get is that of someone who is busy, and not giving this game his full attention. Come to think of it, that makes me lean toward the Townier side of Neutral. More please.

Insufficient Data

02.

ThAdmiral

: Low amount of content. Additionally, my respect for his abilities is sufficient to counterbalance the slightly Towny vibe I have from him. I absolutely want more out of you, regardless of alignment. If Town, because I like what you have to say. If scum, so I can nail you to a wall. Plzkthx.
05.

SodaSpirit17

: Four or five posts, nothing with significant content.
06.

sword_of_omens

: Nothing since a contentless RVS post. Has presumably flaked.

07.

Primate

: One solitary post promising to catch up two days ago. We're waiting.

11.

Jackal711

: Has not posted at all. Likely flaked, though he picked up his role PM (DamnFail was immediately replaced when he failed to pick up his role, so we know Jackal did receive it.)
17.

funkybike1

: Insufficient data. Needs to post more.

Scummy Side of Neutral

03.

DavidParker

: Poor post count, poor content, poor analysis, and an inability to see past himself and his attackers. This is scummy, but mostly just bad play, regardless of alignment. Improve content, please.

09.

Shattered Viewpoint

: I'd actually put SV in the "Towny Side of Neutral" category at first, based on a positive image gut reaction to him, and likely based on the fact that he's agreed with me a number of times. I was even toying with having him be the first in my "Maybe Town" category. However, I diligently ISO'd him (as I have for every entry in this analysis) and discovered "HEY! There's no actual content here!" So I put him in the "Insufficient Data" category. Then I continued the line of thinking that started when I noticed his lack of content. A total lack of content, accusations sans explanation aside, from someone who is

clearly

paying attention to the game and posting semi-regularly is downright scummy.
18.

Hiraki

: Recently graduating from the "Insufficient Data" class, I think there's enough information to make a (purely meta) case here. Hiraki is

not

making a good enough showing, or following up on his aggressive tendancies for me to consider him Town. A good example of his aggressive-Town play is There Will Be Bloodshed (New York 128, I think). I can't think of a good example of Hiraki-scum, but I recall this aptitude for trolling to be part of his scum meta. This isn't a conclusive case, but definitely something I'm going to continue monitoring.

19.

Sky

: Initially in "Insufficient Data" for lack of posting, but as recently noted, every post he's made has either been RVS or off-topic. Suspicious, kind of belongs in both categories.

Acceptable D1 Lynches

04.

theamatuer

: Aptly named. Opportunistic in the extreme...jumps on me, jumps on zdenek, jumps on Beck when the conversation turns, then abandons that failing wagon to pick on a flaking lurker, while providing no case or analysis on...anyone. Reeks of newbScum, and will likely end up being my #1 choice for our first lynch.

12.

Zdenek

: Promoted from "Scummy Side of Neutral" as of this post. Proposed PL, backed off, said it was a joke, then said it was a gambit, then a joke again, and has provided zero content while active lurking. 323 is particularly suspicious, in that he provides two very different reasons for the same action in the same post. I find it laughable that his only content, and the only content

regarding

him, revolves around an RVS post. If he were to provide some serious, solid content, he could easily improve my opinion. Right now, he's a solid second tier candidate for a lynch.
13.

popsofctown

: As Zel1nk recently stated, king of IIOA. The only analysis-based post I could find was an early-RVS defense of zdenek's worthless PL suggestion...a position he promptly reversed. Was also at the heart of the off-topic discussion about Town lists, in which he proved that "Hey, I can be active instead of lurking!" only to promptly vanish when the off-topic conversation died.

...Other

21.

Beck

: I struggled with where to put Beck. Frankly, he simply doesn't fit in any of my other categories. I find him more likely than even odds to be Town, but I still encourage our Vig/SK to put him out of

his

our misery. Succinctly put, his self-centered and obnoxious attitude combined with his propensity for prolific posting is a detriment to the Town and a haven for active lurkers.

Lynch all Liars. You claimed your first post was a joke because it was beneficial for it to be one.

Unless you can explain what's so humorous about sorgster's play in 1531

I was using the word joke to day that it was not a serious policy lynch.

Do you think that all lies/gambits by town are scummy?

Dude, you CAN'T claim it as a joke AND a gambit. They are NOT the same thing...VERY different, in fact. This statement, and it being the second time you've schizo claimed both in one post, is by far the most damning thing you've done. You give two contradictory reasons for the same action. Genuine actions performed for legitimate reasons do not require such hedging of bets.

I'm strapped for time I can devote to mafia, so please chill on my activity level.

Re: IioA - I like theory crafting a lot, so I'm naturally predisposed to talk a lot about it since I enjoy it more. That said it is anti-town,

Confession of being anti-town.

Oh what bullshit. He's stating that his style is generally not as beneficial to the Town as intended, not admitting to an anti-Town alignment. Major, major misrep here.

That said, I'm not pops' biggest fan, so carry on.
================

Please stop talking about the game that Zdenek and pops played before. It is entirely irrelevant to this game and is off-topic.

To everyone else, I came across the big wall I did in 344. I'll start writing up another of those. There were some interesting things in the old er parts of D1, like good reasons why I don't think Screaming Hawk is scum.

[Pine]

Nah, I'll do it tomorrow after work.

[Pine]

What scumhunting? He just out of the blue accuses me without adequate explanation, and pulls that demonstrably false nonsense about Hiraki. He pisses me off, especially when he keeps saying that I haven't done anything. Don't encourage him.

[Pine]

And who's doing that?

[Pine]

These are all of the completed scum games I could find. I might be missing one or two, it was a quick skim through old bookmarks.

There Will Be Bloodshed - My first scum game on-site. Made some early mistakes, but recovered with the help of an airtight confirmed Town read from Mastin (that's what caused him to retire the original Mastin name in favor of Mastin2). Won with a perfect scum victory. My favorite completed scum game to date.
The Call of Cutthulhufish - Small scumteam with C-Worl, we lost to a Serial Killer in endgame. Lots of fun, rivals TWBB.
NY 130: Mirror Mafia - Mirrored scumteams. Mine dominated the game, though I got crosskilled before endgame. Good example of one of my favorite scum tactics, the Town Leader.
NY 131: Tricycle Mafia - nhammen and I bussed the baggage on our team early and dominated the rest of the game. A more subtle strategy of mine.
Mini 1137 - I made a big mistake early on and got drilled for it. Luckily, Faraday replaced my lurky partner and pwned to victory.
Mini 1156 - Another early game where I made a mistake early on and was unable to recover from it. This may be my worst performance as scum.
Set's Speed Mafia - Only survivor and winner. Not really representative of my scum acumen, as it went blindingly fast when I really ought to have been on V/LA, and it was dominated by spammy fuckers like Beck. Still, I managed to parlay my legit lurkiness into a win. A lot of Beck's personal rage at me comes from this game.
Nintendo Mafia - I replaced into Espeonage's scummy slot with an active cop guilty on me. I went down fast, but came

really

close to getting the cop lynched first.
Communications Breakdown - I replaced into Espeonage's scummy slot with an active cop guilty on me. No, I didn't just copy/paste, it happened AGAIN. Went down fast, atypical nature of the game made it hard to even defend myself as I didn't know another chat room had a claimed cop with said guilty.

Planet of Hats - Hydra'd with Mastin as Palisade. We gave a reasonable Serial Killer performance, but I ended up summer-flaking part way through and Mastin got caught eventually.
Open 340: The Donner Party - Serial Killer WIN. Replaced in, carried the slot to a bloody finish.

[Pine]

@vijay: Point 1 of 2194 is laughably and blatantly false. Examples abound of why it is ridiculous.

Point 2 is purely opinion, and therefore cannot really be contended. I reacted as I reacted, and I am Town, therefore it is wrong. Without seeing my role PM or flip, there is little I can do to directly combat Beck's opinion save through actions, and I feel I am doing that on a regular basis.

Point 3 is also false. At no point on Day One did I ever have a Town opinion of Funky. This morning when it first came up, I reviewed my significant interactions with and opinions on Funky from thread start to the motive slip. Here are my notes:

Pre-550: The cases on Funky up to this point were utter bullshit, consisting almost entirely of calling him out for lurking. At that point in Day One, lurkerhunting is not a valid strategy, and he'd only posted four times, none of which had any real content in either direction.
550: I jokingly said Funky could be Town "for now", because I immediately recognized his vig claim as a jest, and was amused by the idiots jumping all over it.
638: Called Funky out for scummy hypocrisy and going out of his way to label himself Town. Dropped my objections to the wagon on Funky.
823: Supported bvoigt in calling Funky out for dodging legitimate questions directed at him.
859: Broke my silence at Beck to point out his idiocy for clearing Funky based on poor logic.
861: Clarified my position on Funky as reading him to be neutral-scummy. Again declared the active cases against him to be poorly-crafted, with the stipulation that Funky was failing to redeem earlier suspicions.

That is the sum total of my opinions on Funky from Day One. Starting with 2124 and the motives-slip I found there, I started putting it all together, rereading and recalling the small things that got lost in the giant pile of nonsense that was Day One. There is a cohesive case against Funky, and at no point have I held any strong opinion of him higher than "Neutral". Since the high point of 550, he has steadily worked his way downward, and my ISO will prove it.

[Pine]

Are you high? There's not alignment motivation behind it whatsoever, Town or scum. As a

player

, I was insulted by Slandaar's amateurish conduct. I recognized right away that regardless of his alignment, he

ruined

at least part of a game that I've spent hours of my life on. Either he was Town and about to get modkilled, therefore destroying his chances to have any kind of positive impact on the game, or he was scum and had possibly outed a buddy and made our victory a hollow one.

[Pine]

Math for shits and giggles:

Beck+Slandaar+Revenus
469+226+224=919 posts=48.67% of the thread

There are 22 players.

In short:

Shut the hell up you spammy bastards.

He's talking about this post. Wherein I use math to manipulate the Town into telling the spammers to shut the hell up.

[Pine]

At this point in the game, I've eliminated the "leaning" categories. Either someone has given me an impression, or they haven't. Still, some are stronger than others

Town

Pine

-I've read my role PM.

Beck

-As terrible as this guy plays, he's Town.

bvoigt

-Has played a solid game so far, and despite his low content, has consistently scumhunted and excersised strong logic in the face of daunting spam.

Maybe Town

sorgster

-Solid logic and scumhunting.

Maxous

-Consistent scumhunting and logic. Redeemed sword_of_omens' null-scum impression just fine.

iamausername

-IAAUN has always been a bit null to me, but Faraday made a good impression during his time here.

ScreamingHawk

-Surprised? Shame on you. You haven't been paying attention. Hawk has been a scummy lurker and somtimes a sheeper, but he cops to it. It's so bold and shameless that I just don't see scum being this blatant and uncaring. Hawk is lazy to the point of being anti-Town, but it's how unapologetic he is that makes him Town. The degree to which he's been a punching bag for my scumreads also helps clear him.

Zdenek

-My weakest Townread, but he makes it here nonetheless. His dogged determination against a few people is much like what I've seen from Zdenek-Town in the past. He's operated by the dictum "Find scum and

get them lynched

, and though he isn't always accurate, it's a pretty Towny way of acting.

ShatteredViewpoint

-Similar to Hawk, he's been remarkably obvscum and not

cared

about it. I've played with NS before, and whatever else you have to say about him, I just don't think he'd play scum this way. Being called out repeatedly as he has been would have roused him to at least defend himself a bit. Town and scum will both defend themselves against cases being made against them, but pretty much only Town will mock those attacking them and just give them the virtual finger. Like Hawk, he's been a frequent punching bag by people with crappy reasons, and thta speaks in his favor.

---------------------------
I'm working top-down on this list, and I've decided to hold it here for now, as this is a big undertaking and I have a life to live. However, this has done wonders towards organizing my thoughts and focusing my scumhunting. I recommend you all do something like this, whether you keep it on a piece of scrap paper or post it here. It's allowed me to narrow down our four or five scum to the following:

02. ThAdmiral
03. Velzanath////DavidParker
04. theamatuer
05. Empty Slot////toxic8e8op////SodaSpirit17
07. ZeL1nK
09. Shattered Viewpoint
10. ScreamingHawk////DamnFail
11. vijay2vasandani////Jackal711
13. popsofctown
14. Revenus
17. funkybike1
19. Sky

Yes, yes, I'll get the same calls of "Townhunting! Townhunting!" that have already been hurled at my feet, but people are forgetting that

scum already know who the Town is

[/u]. Unless they're making allies, it is not in their interests to make Town lists and help people clear their name.

[Pine]

lol, I'm better at being scum than to call my buddy definitely Town, and bvoigt isn't amateur enough to call his buddy obvtown.

[Pine]

These people are null, with a critical lack of content that doesn't really let me analyze them very well at all. With 90 pages, these people need to replace out or start providing something to work with.

Velzanath////DavidParker

-Velzanath has started to make up for the big blank spot on the map that this slot was, but he's all over the map and I've got no read on him to speak of.

Empty Slot////toxic8e8op////SodaSpirit17

-Toxic was vaguely Towny, Soda was vaguely scummy. Neither gave a strong vibe. Slot is empty, Hoppster is thinking about filling it.

Sky

-There was more from Sky than I thought when I ISO'd him. Still, I don't see much that gives me a strong opinion one way or another, as half of his posts are sheeping onto one wagon or another with reasons that can be summed up as "meh" or suggestions that he'll catch up when he can.

I'll finish this report tonight when I get home and have the time to devote to building my cases against them. Scumlist is down to the following:

02. ThAdmiral
04. theamatuer
07. ZeL1nK
11. vijay2vasandani////Jackal711
13. popsofctown
14. Revenus
17. funkybike1

I'm reasonably confident that there's one or two scum that have successfully given me a Town impression, but being able to narrow it down this much from 19 people is encouraging.

[Pine]

He's been lurking, trying to get people to forget how scummy he was Day One.

Rev, no one agrees with you on me. You never made a cohesive case, and never got past OMG PINE IS SCUM BECAUSE HE DOESN'T LIKE ME ANYMORE. So no one

agrees

with you, they all have their own reasons. Quit trying to take credit for a half-formed wagon you had almost nothing to do with.

[Pine]

You left off ThAd...which leads me to believe that the above list was not inspired by an honest readthrough of Slandaar's ISO, which suggests that you crafted it based off of who you could use Slandaar's ISO to justify from among your own targets.

[Pine]

That's the only line in Slandaar's entire ISO that even remotely suggests ThAd might not be scum. You also left off FROM THAT EXACT POST, him calling Beck and Pops scum, and him calling Soda Town, which is the opposite of what you're suggesting.

Did not do the research. Advancing your own targets in dead Town's name. I've

never

seen Town do that.

Unvote
Vote: theamateur

[Pine]

hell, if we

were

to use Slandaar's reads as guidance, we sure as shit wouldn't use that post anyway. He contradicts himself at least twice in it in regards to Soda and SV, and he also called MastinTown scum. It isn't a reliable source of information, and if he were actually trying to get usable information from Slandaar, he'd have done his homework like I did and seen that.

[Pine]

Amusingly ThAd might not be, based on funkys claim being a joke... it makes things different. I have not reread though so meh, I dont really know. His case on me is bad though, i dont see why people find it good.

Try again.

Check the post number you quoted there, tough guy. You just made a liar out of yourself, there.

[Pine]

Sure, sorgster, all you had to do was ask. It's kind of long, so I'll work on it over the course of the evening.

[Pine]

pine is scum, I think its almost certain.

pops has to be based on his 'super scummy but im voting my null'

Amusingly ThAd might not be, based on funkys claim being a joke... it makes things different. I have not reread though so meh, I dont really know. His case on me is bad though, i dont see why people find it good.

This is why pine is scum, the case on me is bad, pine said i contradicted myself which is simply not true and I showed him why, but he still presses it. Pine is scum.

A contradiction cannot have a plausible situation where it is not a contradiction. So pine is like lock scum.

beck just makes so much up he honestly cant be town...

Mastin seemed scummy to me in his like 5 posts

Hiraki is town i think, its close, he might just be really good, but I think hes town.

soda is likely yo be scum i think, his ISO isnt good... but its more POE.

funky seems scummy to me

vijay i am unsure of.

sorg unsure also

vel , who knows?

then Zel is town,

soda is town

, toxic seems town in the few posts, rev is town, bv is town,

SV is scum if pine isnt, but im pretty sure pine is.

pine being scum makes SV fairly likely to be scum.

Sv in otherwords is likely scum.

IAAUN is town

theama is town i think

Maxous seemed scummy in his couple posts, but I have no idea who he replaced...

Anyways I am VT, you should lynch me today as im pretty confident my reads are good.

Make sure you get pops

or pine tomorrow they are by far the scummiest players.

Seriously, you better use this tomorrow, otherwise I wont be happy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Slandaar

This is the post that YOU QUOTED FIRST as supporting your case. Bolded are

direct contradictions

and important things that you left out of your list. Italicized are contradictions that show that Slandaar's reads are terrible and not even consistent within the same post, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Wagon on theamateur, go.

[Pine]

Are you kidding? Theam lynch is good. I considered switching over to him way before the current thing I've got him on.

I'm not seeing anything that makes Sorgster a reasonable lynch.

[Pine]

That's true (2255). I think we should lynch the shit out of theam, but we should be doing it for the right reasons.

[Pine]

Because Sorgster asked so nicely...

So here is why Pine is scum:

I'm going to break this down point by point, and provide a summary at the end of each of Zdenek's "parts" refuting it as a whole. All quotes are from Zdenek's case in 2022 unless otherwise indicated.

Part 1. The "vig" debacle.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p3520305 Doc on Rev please.

At this point, I believed Revenus to be serious. He was credible, as he'd been making some sense up to this point, yet also derpy enough that making such a novice mistake was believable. I have meta reasons to believe there is a vig in this game, and scum claiming vig in a game with a vig is absolute suicide. Requesting the Doc to protect one of the most crucial Town roles was serious and genuine.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p3520317 I can't count on derp players to do the right thing.

Who can?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 20serious.

Prior to the above linked post, Revenus had already stated (like 200 posts before it) that his claim was a joke. Funky's claim was an immediately-obvious mock of what went down with Revenus's claim. I don't really understand why the quoted is a point against me; I was restating common knowledge to someone who asked a question about it.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p3552155 The vig claim was an obvious joke

Actually, this one's 100% my fault. In the linked post, I was writing from memory and confused Revenus's and Funky's vig claims. Funky's was obviously a joke, Revenus's was not.

Basically he was full of shit and trying to role fish by pointing out what he now calls an obvious joke.

What role fishing? Revenus and Funky both announced their vig fakeclaims without any provocation from me, and at no point did I ask for anyone else's. In fact, the only other role I think I even mentioned was Doc, and I damn sure didn't ask them to announce themselves. The cognitive dissonance between joke/not a joke I'll cop to, though it was in error and not maliciousness.

------------------

Part 2. Mafia discussion posts:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 4#p3513884 This is what RVS is about.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 0#p3514290 Scum do scum hunt . . .. .

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 1#p3515631 Here's how the vig should play.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 9#p3517729 Please stop discussing mafia theory. Cognitive dissonance.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 3#p3520353 You don't lynch lurkers day one.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p3521522 Get and avatar, soft claiming is bad.

Part 3. Cognitive Dissonance:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p3510892 Here he talks about a past game with no bearing on this one. This is also an instance of him trying to antagonize Beck.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p3519727 Please stop talking about past games.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 9#p3519979 Talks about past games.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p3534007 Talks about past games.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 9#p3515619 Directing the vig.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p3519022 Directing the vig.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p3524157 Directing the vig.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p3539892 LOL at Beck's directing the vig.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 1#p3543131 LOL where am I directing night actions of any kind.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 8#p3530568 Here Pine's stance on policy lynches starts to change.

Part 4. Other:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p3513732 Antagonizes Beck.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 3#p3543723 disingenuous attack on Sky.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p3551297 Revenus do you have rage issues - mudflinging

[Pine]

Blah. Hit submit instead of preview. Probably not going to finish this tonight. I rented the A-Team tonight, and it's devoured a good chunk of my evening. I have work in the morning, so I'm hitting the hay instead of finishing.

[Pine]

@ pops, how is zde opportunistic when he made a huge d1 case why pine was scum and pine has still ignored it?

Zde's case got overshadowed by slandaar's stunt. Voting pine today for him can't be called opportunistic at all

Indeed, it can't.

Not

voting pine is what is opportunistic, with his bizarre, weak case at the beginning of day 2 on velzanath which starkly contrasted with the dedicated tunneler image he was putting on Day 1.

This is an excellent point. Clearly he had a good reason for abandoning a case he believes in. It's possible that Zdenek-scum jumped on an unpopular and slightly scummy action from Velzanath in an opportunistic attempt to get a flash wagon started. I don't think Zdenek is that obvscum a player though, and his sudden change right at day start suggests to me that he had new inspiration during the night, possibly a re-read.

[Pine]

Lol. As unproductive as D1 was, this one is shaping up to be a scummapalooza. Add Vel to the list for his inconsistent fakereads.

[Pine]

Everyone seems to want me lynched... and I only have two votes?

VOTE: Pine... Scumpalooza? What?

I mean that you and your buddies have been more obvious in the last few pages than the entire rest of the thread. Scummapalooza. I'm not speaking Swahili here.

[Pine]

I don't really think Zdenek has been opportunistic at all. I looked over that first vote of D2 again, and I just don't see motive or opportunity for jumping on Vel. That really only leaves two options: coordinated bussing, or genuine scumhunting. I'mma go with the latter.

Unvote
Vote: Velzanath

I support this product and/or service.

[Pine]

Velzanath is easier to lynch, of course. I'm a bitch to lynch unless I've been caught in a serious scumslip or cop guilty, and I've been known to talk my way out of those, too. In the context of this game, I have a broad background of scumhunting and investigation to verify me as Town, while Vel does not.

Zdenek's vote was not, however, opportunistic. He was the first one on Vel, there was no obvious slip to jump on, and he had an established case against a serious opponent. If anything, it was the opposite of opportunism; changing tack was sticking his neck out, not going for someone who would be an easy target.

[Pine]

Unvote

I had no idea Velzanath was that new. I'm terrible at reading new people, and the bad stuff out of him is plausible in that light. Hrm.

Vote: Revenus

[Pine]

Seriously. Seriously? Seriously.

Seriously

Seriously?

You've never once addressed any defense I've made about Revenus based on his experience. You just ignore it. Every post you've ever made about him treats him like a normal player and uses vetlogic instead of newbscum logic. You've never bothered to assert Revenus is competent (lawl) and you've never acknowledged that ability has any impact of your read on him. I assumed you just don't make VI distinctions, which many people don't, but you apparently do. And the only way I can explain the difference between you making that distinction for velz and not revenus is that one of them was an easier target or one of them is your buddy. Or maybe you're just incompletely faking your towngame.

unvote, vote: Pine

That's enough of a tipping point, i should probably start listening to my townreads.

As policy, I tend to ignore people defending other people. I wasn't aware that Revenus is new, and I don't care. He is making every effort to play with the big boys, and needs to be treated that way. People only do that if they feel they're ready, which accompanies thorough research into site meta. I got away with exactly what you're talking about in

my

first non-Newbie game, and was quite a bit of a VI there. Guess what? I was scum, and actively manipulating my VI image.

[Pine]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16798

Just for reference. Perfect scum win, I might add...being regarded as a VI allowed me to sheep my vote onto the scummiest places freely, without people doing much more than rolling their eyes at me, and being defended by experienced Town. Mastin even made the bet that he'd retire from the site if I flipped scum...which is why he now uses the name mastin2. Never underestimate new players.

PE: It works two ways. Velz has done only a few things, made a couple of mistakes, which are forgivable. I'm not calling him confirmed Town, that would be idiotic. I'm saying that they explain his actions, and put him back to null. Revenus has developed a pattern, and shown a competence that belies his lower experience level. They're entirely different cases.

[Pine]

Yeah, from a scum perspective it doesn't make much sense, but then again, this doesn't prove him as town, since newscum also tends to find terribad reasons to vote people.

This is a perfect example of what I mean. Revenus has shown a competence within site meta and a willingness to act as a voice of experience that I don't expect from new players. He sets himself apart, which forces me to treat him differently. Vel labels himself new, which tells me he's made mistakes and knows it. Revenus hasn't admitted fault, which means he still believes in his actions. Instead he lurks, which means he's looking for the heat to cool down.

[Pine]

Lol, bvoigt is Towny McTownerson from Townsville

[Pine]

You posted three scum: Beck, Revenus, and Zel1nk. There's gotta be more than that in this game. Try harder.

PE: Theam, he listed Slandaar as scum...no wait, just dumb.

[Pine]

Neither is clever enough nor experienced enough to do it this convincingly.

[Pine]

Well you have been so useful, I guess we should all learn from your awesome scumhunting abilities.

I've posted the scumteam; it's not my fault you guys are ignoring me.

Except you called a town PR scum so clearly you didnt earn the right to have anyone listen to you.

No, SV didn't. Hiraki is the only Town PR to flip, and I don't see him mentioning Hiraki at all. Try not being a moron and substantiating your accusations.

PE: Clever enough or experienced enough to do this

convincingly

. You aren't.

[Pine]

^Rolefishing.

He did softclaim. I don't really feel like doing the your work for you and helping you and your buddies try to figure out whether you should kill him or not. And neither should Beck.

[Pine]

EBWOP: Arrow was supposed to be pointing at theam's post.

[Pine]

He did cause I'm a PR and he called me scum. I soft claimed day 1.

This game is full of stupid town so I'll just play along and be stupid too

vote: beck

Pine and SV act like they are god's gifts and I can't play with that type of arrogance.

Then replace out. Please, please replace out. I could really use a competent, confirmed Town player.

[Pine]

There is no possible way Beck is scum, for too many reasons to reasonably list. If you think Beck might be scum at this point, you're really not paying attention.

PE: Not as far as I can tell, from the two games we've played together.

[Pine]

Pay attention, Sorgster. He's not scum, there's no way he could be.

[Pine]

Actually, the powerlurking started towards the end of D1, as soon as the pressure of a wagon lifted off of him. Rev stuck his neck out too far D1, got hit hard, and is lurking until we forget it. Not gonna let that happen, though.

[Pine]

It's more that my scum play looks like my Town play than vice versa; I'm very good at scum and only mediocre as Town.

My top three are Rev, theam, and Funky, in that order. Vijay if I had to go with a fourth.

[Pine]

You're right, you don't have to take it. You could just contribute to the game, perhaps by explaining your reads. Then the abuse would magically evaporate.

[Pine]

^Not-paying-attention post is not paying attention.

[Pine]

Rev lynch so far: Pine, bvoigt, vijay, Vel, sorg, SV, Funky --> L-3

Beck voted for it (he's been advocating against Rev off and on since the early game, why he'd get off a wagon on one of his bigger scumreads as soon as it becomes plausible is beyond me) but then hopped off. Theam has been pussyfooting around adding his vote (uncertain whether to bus or not), and Zdenek has voiced bland support for it.

Let's do this, people.

[Pine]

Stop being self-centered. You're Town, and there is no compelling reason to derail a great wagon in favor of a lurker.

[Pine]

A great wagon that you agree with, btw.

Let the vig get SV, it would be a good kill.

[Pine]

For future reference: If you're every playing with pops or Beck, and they suspect both you and your buddy, jump onto your buddy's wagon. It may save your buddy at no cost to you!

Pro tip: If someone's scumbuddy(-ies) are willing to bus them,

let them

. It's their loss.

[Pine]

Heyyy, more evidence that IAAUN is Town. That's just not a scum perspective. Scum might lurk on purpose, but only Town tries to solve their issues with giving a damn about a game.

Hey, theam, how about you 'act Town' by putting your money where your mouth is a dropping a vote on Rev?

[Pine]

Lynchers are not permitted in Normal games [/obsessive need to correct]

[Pine]

I have sub-clinical OCD. Mostly pertaining to things like spelling and adherence to game rules, so sue me.

[Pine]

I dropped Vel back to null a while ago, and SV is...something. Obstinately unreadable. And obstinately and

intentionally

unreadable is a perfect vig shot, or cop investigate, or whatever. So of the three you named, only Funky is a solid scumread, bro. Add in your buddy Vijay, and you've got only two people I'm highly suspicious of bussing you, which makes a great deal of sense. Plus, your other buddy theam is publicly running in circles over whether or not to bus you himself. I think he was going to, but then vijay and Funky jumped on, and now he doesn't want a full third of the lynch to be scum vs scum.

Besides, I'm comforted by the fact that some of my strongest Town reads agree with me on you. Bvoigt and sorgster are both on board, and if Beck were to pull his head out of his ass and remember all of the many reason he was cheering for your death, he'd be in on this too. For all you and Beck prate about how scummy the wagon is on you, it's also remarkably Towny. And wouldn't you know? Most of the Towny ones were the ones who initiated the wagon in the first place. Blame your mates in the dead thread, Chief.

[Pine]

"...bus someone like me" sounds like a scum PR, now that I look at it again.

[Pine]

My speculation had nothing to do with the night kills at first, it stems from the fact that chk

added

flavor some time between the start of the game and the start of Day Two. I noticed it, saw a glaring reference to two gangs, and suddenly the number of probable scum jumped from 4-6ish to upwards of nine or ten possible scum. That's a

hugely

important fact for Town to consider, and of course the best evidence for us to consider when trying to figure out the number of teams is night kills. To say Town never questions an unexpected number of night kills is laughable to the point of sounding desperate. Flail more.

[Pine]

Oh, and by the way? Two scumteams of three (using your numbers there, by the way, and thanks for the tip) means that scum like vijay and Funky can quite happily jump onto your lynch without it being bussing at all. They're simply trying to eliminate the competition.

[Pine]

Rolling In The Deep

Moderators:

chkflip & Darth Yoshi

Back-Up:

bv310



"There's a fire starting in my heart..."

That woman sure can keep a tune, can't she? Enough to blare on this radio. Just a small boombox in the middle of the poor, nearly desolated streets of Rollin Heights. The violence these streets have seen has gone up two-hundred percent according to the Sherriff's annual report, but who reads those anymore anyway? It doesn't seem to make a difference whether or not the county police show up or not these days. This is why we can't have nice things.

"reaching the fever pitch and it's brangin' me out the dark, OOOHHH!!"

The main problem was the Mean Guys Mafia clashing against the "turf" of the Rollin Heights Gang.

Many nights have been lit by their gunfire, sometimes in directions that don't even make sense. Some have revolted the government. Some have picked up their own weapons. In this two block radius lived twenty-two neighbors; unfortunately, they all found themselves at the church holding a meeting only to find themselves right in the middle.

BANG!

A shot came through the window and shut that British woman right up.

00.

Adele

,

NPC

, died N0.

It's going to be a long day...

The Living:

01. sorgster
02. ThAdmiral
03. Velzanath

DavidParker**

04. theamatuer
05. Lurconis

^toxic8e8op

SodaSpirit17**

06. Maxous

sword_of_omens**

07. ZeL1nK
09. Shattered Viewpoint
10. ScreamingHawk

DamnFail

11. vijay2vasandani

Jackal711

12. Zdenek
13. popsofctown
14. Revenus
15. Pine
17. funkybike1
19. Sky
20. iamausername*
21. Beck
22. bvoigt

The Dead:

08.

Mastin2

,

Vanilla Town

, died N1.
18.

Hiraki

,

Town Doctor

, died N1.

The Removed:

16.

Slandaar

,

Vanilla Town

, was

MODKILLED

and turned

Nuetral Survivor

D1.

The Happenings:

The Count:

Check the big, bold, italicized, underlined part, jackass. THAT'S what made me suspect multiple scumteams, and I've said so at least three times.

[Pine]

NY139:Underground Mafia

Hint: It's the one where scum admitted that had I not replaced in, they would have won much sooner.

Something funny about a pastor playing mafia. This is the second pastor I've met who plays mafia.

Though shall not lie, unless you are scum lol

If you're going to quote the Bible, quote it correctly.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

This is a game, therefore no false witness is being borne. Your extremely myopic interpretation would also ban all forms of pretend, acting, and many forms of playing.

Fuck it, if SV isn't dead by day 3, I'm quitting and I don't mean replacing out

Can someone else vote rev. I sort of want to hammer him.

@Mods: Please consider force-replacing Beck for this comment. Not playing to wincon

[Pine]

I have sub-clinical OCD. Mostly pertaining to things like spelling and adherence to game rules, so sue me.

My fellow sufferer!! But mine's diagnosed. (I'm assuming sub-clinical means undiagnosed. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Sub-clinical means that on diagnostic tests, someone scores significantly higher than average, but under the threshold for clinical diagnosis. I have ADHD (attention deficit type), sub-clinical social phobia, and sub-clinical OCD.

[Pine]

someone update me on why rev has 8 votes. has he claimed scum or is this the same retarded shit from D1?

Change of plyaystyle from active to lurking
Plus pine says I'm stupid about everything mafia, EXCEPT my case on rev

Your case on Rev WAS stupid. You were making mountains out of molehills, and finding the wrong things scummy for the wrong reasons. The fact that you were correct does not vindicate your terrible reasons for being correct.

I've made a separate case, which is not stupid. Pay attention.

Interestingly enough, Zelink, there's a lot of support for a theam lynch. If not for Rev, the biggest wagon in Town would be on him. The fact of the matter is that in a game this large, there's plenty of scum to take down, and when the Town gets divided, nothing happens. That was our fatal flaw Day One. I intend to make him the focus of Day Three,

so if I die, please do so for me

.

[Pine]

I'm /in for bvoigt

[Pine]

I hesitate to assign them to individual teams, as I haven't really thought through scum connections. Unless they're obv, I prefer to wait until we have a scumflip and then try to figure out who their partners are. This is doubly true if there are two teams.

[Pine]

If revenus is a werewolf that would confirm that there are two scum teams. If he is mafia, at least we lynched scum

This...seems tantamount to a scumclaim. Sorgster has officially killed his Towncred with me. Even if it isn't a scumslip, it's bad, bad, terribad logic.

[Pine]

I should explain, as I probably wasn't very clear. It sounds like Sorgster may be Mafiascum, and is eager to know whether or not he has competition. He knows he's Mafia, so he jumps to Werewolves as the possible opposition, not giving credit to the possibility that Werescum is the only team. It's entirely circumstantial, but it sticks out in an odd way. And odd in this context means suspect.

[Pine]

Two Mafia teams, bro. Check NY 131.

[Pine]

Yeah, they do. It's in the Normal guidelines. But they can have two Mafia teams, or two Wolf teams if they want. That assumption that theam would flip Wolf if scum makes me think you might be Mafiascum.

[Pine]

Again, I point you to NY 130*. It was Red Mafia vs Black Mafia vs Serial Killer vs Town. Town was utterly useless, and I caught Thor as SK early in the game. It basically devolved into which scumteam could hunt the other better (my Black team won).

*I misremembered this as NY131 above. They were both going on at the same time, I got a scum victory in both, and both had some mirroring flavor. Not the first time I've confused them.

[Pine]

Oooh! I love when scum on scum benefits me! That ties the case on pops I've been scribbling onto scrap paper up nicely. With a bow, even.

Rev, theam, Pops, Funky, Vijay, and Sorgster. It even comes out to the right number!

[Pine]

I just find 3 v 3 more likely. At 4 v 4, it starts to favor anti-Town a bit, and at 5 v 5 it's just straight up unfair. 2 v 2 is strongly Town-sided, so 3 v 3 is a pretty good number. Yeah, it tries to outguess the mod a bit, but I tend to do that.

I'm not ready start guessing whole teams. Let's get a few scumflips, confirm the existence of two teams, and then we can start setting up trios or quartets. All I'm willing to do at this point is pairing who may be buddies or who are definitely not buddies. Pops is probably not with Sorgster, for example.

[Pine]

Up until now, I'd been dismissing the reasonable cases being built on you by others because of my previous Townread. With the slip you made a page or two ago, you shattered that Townread. Starting from null, the cases made by others started making sense, and your reaction to suspicion has been downright horrendous. I'm not 100% yet, but this situation has definitely painted you in a bad light.

[Pine]

"If he flips Mafia" was obviously an afterthought. Your expectation that he would flip Wolf if anything was clear to me, and to many of the rest of us.

[Pine]

So...you don't expect him to flip scum, but you support a lynch on him based on the information we'd get from his flip. Got it.

[Pine]

I think I'm done with this particular conversation.

[Pine]

Hmmm. Looking at that vote count, I'm starting to think we don't have the support for a Rev lynch today. Almost everyone that's off the Rev wagon has stated they don't believe in it, with the obvious exception of Beck, who inexplicably refuses to vote for someone he's repeatedly stated to be scum.

I'm willing to table the Rev lynch until tomorrow and settle for a lynch of theam, maybe sorgster. What do you all think about this?

[Pine]

theam's iso was cringeworthy. I definitely see a pattern of passive-aggressive endorsement of town wagons...

I would love a bit more detail on this.

Ooooh, me too. That looks a lot like another scumslip. Shameless newbie claim can save you from one slip in my book, but two, especially one this blatant, is asking a bit much.

Unvote
Vote: Vel

[Pine]

theam's iso was cringeworthy.

I definitely see a pattern of passive-aggressive endorsement of town wagons

... I'm sorry bro, but I hope you know that in my mind, all of your posts are narrated by Neo.

Bgradescumcop?

Velazanth knows which wagons are Town wagons. When his scumflip confirms this, we can use theam's ISO as a way to associate Townreads (if we end up with one scumteam) for the people theam has endorsed, or not-scum-with-Velz reads (if we end up with two teams).

Reading into things is the point of the whole game, asshat.

[Pine]

My reads on them haven't changed. Zdenek is probably Town, Sky is so null-lurker I'm starting to think he's doing it on purpose, and ThAd is really hard for me to read. He's null-scummy, but has made so many decent point that I find myself agreeing with that I can't help but leave him off every time I make a scumlist.

[Pine]

lolno

(No offense, DY. Entering the seminary is one of only a few careers I seriously considered, along with police, politics, and my ultimate choice, teaching. Cookie if you can correctly identify the common thread there. The insight into my personality might be a better reward than the cookie .jpg)

[Pine]

OMG YES. DGBTOWN FTW.

[Pine]

And really sorgster?

"I don't get Vel's scumslip" /vote Vel...

Lol.

2602 told me the slip I missed.

LAL

[Pine]

If you didn't notice, I am pretty much the first and only one pushing towards the funky wagon.
Not to mention how is sheeping something who you read as town bad? btw thats only towards Beck here.

Ill support a Vel wagon if my vote is needed to bring him to L-2 or L-1

. Otherwise I'm staying at funky's

Scum much?

Inorite? It's almost as if he compulsively can't help but hedge his bets by bussing, but not bussing hard enough to make a difference. Or is he actually hunting an opposite number, but doesn't want to obvbandwagon?

[Pine]

Full cases on both incoming DGB

[Pine]

*rather not. sorry

Rev is not reading the thread, and making unsubstantiated OMGUS cases against anyone and everyone who even looks at him funny, regardless of how much he's buddied up to them in the past. More on this in the full case.

Withdrawing his accusations against me as soon as I move my vote to someone else and talk about making a big case against him is cute though. Good insight.

[Pine]

DGB & smargaret, instead of doing a brand-new workup on Revenus, which would take hours given his massive post count on Day One, I'm going to start with my Day One cases. Some may be hard to follow out of context, but after review I think they will still work for your purposes. What is important to know is that prior to the first quoted post below, I had a semi-strong Townread on Revenus, based mostly on the fact that he and I agreed on almost everything. I now believe that Revenus was actively buddying me, as the most vocal and canny Townie (you'll note that I do not include Beck or Slandaar.) As soon as I reversed my read on him, and I mean within one or two posts, he goes from speaking of me in the loftiest terms to calling me lying scum. He has done that again and again, and a major motif in his play style thus far has been extreme overreaction to any suspicion levied against him, to the point of making terribad cases and grinding the axe against anyone who sneezes in his direction. His reaction to being wagoned, after my initial case, was just as bad, characterized by flailing, insults (not that I'm one to talk), and willful disregard for the legitimate points being made against him.

oh are we back to lynching beck, i'm still down

Unvote

Vote:Beck

for many many reasons that i've gone over before.

and no sane mafia is going NK you Beck as you are clearly not a power role.

also because you are mafia

lol opportunism and cognitive dissonance. I've gotta hand it to you, Rev, in the last couple of days of silence, I was drifting back towards my early Town read on you, chalking your bad reactions and such up to a reactionary personality (I have a small amount of that myself - see my early arguments with Beck.) But you've had days to cool off, and are still making slips.

What slips? You accidentally just called Beck Town with your attempts to cover up the "we're not going to kill you" slip.

WAGONS HO.

Unvote
Vote: Revenus

And you've also "confirmed" me as scum. Are you some dayvig daycop rolled into one?

Add rolefishing into the evidence.

You're not seeing the scumslip, Zel1nk. I'll break it down for you.

oh are we back to lynching beck, i'm still down

Unvote

Vote:Beck

for many many reasons that i've gone over before.

This post displays opportunism. Beck isn't getting lynched. We all know he isn't, and yet Revenus is willing to jump at any chance for our D1 lynch to be policy-based. Opportunism.

and no sane mafia is going NK you Beck as you are clearly not a power role.

This statement is fine, more or less, except that he's saying that no Mafia would kill Beck. This indicates that the first quote in this set of four is clearly policy-based, as it reveals a belief in Beck as Town.

also because you are mafia

Here's where it becomes a scumslip. Revenus confuses his motives, and tries to cover up for it by saying "Oh, but we should lynch you for being scum." WHAT? You just, effectively, called him Town. This is

major

cognitive dissonance

, of the sort that originates, with very few exceptions, from minds trying to pretend at scumhunting.

And you've also "confirmed" me as scum. Are you some dayvig daycop rolled into one?

This is plain-as-day rolefishing. What part of that is not clear? Beck has softclaimed a PR like a mofo, despite that being a stupid move. Here, Revenus is trying to goad Beck's frustration and generally gullible nature into a full claim, which would be a BAD THING for Town (are you listening Beck? Do not claim unless it becomes necesary). As it stands, the scum team must weigh the pros and cons of shooting Beck. He's softclaiming a strong PR, so they might want to get rid of him. On the other hand, softclaiming a PR can draw the Doc's protection (and Beck is probably not the Doc, as he requested protection), thereby negating their kill attempt. If there's a Town Watcher on Beck, it could be even worse in that they could lose a member. Et cetera. Softclaiming like this is one of the few types of WIFOM that works

for

the Town instead of against it. By attempting to trick Beck into claiming, Revenus is seeking to negate this advantage.

PE: Theam is simply maintaining his stated read. If Town, he is simply not convinced by the scum slip (though I hope this post sways him). If scum, he's just sticking to his story and choosing not to bus his buddy. It's not a shocker. Busing your buddy over this with a previously-stated Townread would be a poor, transparent move.

Keep reading, Maxous. Rev keeps it pretty tight in the early game, but he implodes once some suspicion (initially for bad reasons) falls on him. His reactions to being wagoned are among the scummiest I've ever seen, dominated by a motif of deflecting suspicion back at anyone who DARES point a finger at him. His 180 on me is a good example. When we were sharing similar opinions on some people, he couldn't extol my virtues enough. I call him on a few minor things, and he flips a shit on me and generally freaks out into panic mode.

The last one there is a quick summary I did for Maxous when he replaced in.

After the wagon on him died down on Day One*, when people began to abandon my Revenus wagon in favor of the competing (Town) Slandaar wagon, Revenus went from one of the three most vociferous and active posters to being a barely-active lurker. I maintain that his relative silence during the end of Day One and the entirety of Day Two has been an attempt to get people to forget him as a viable lynch, which has been unsuccessful in large part because I won't let him get away so easily. The current Revenus wagon, also built by me, was on the process of being abandoned when you replaced in because we didn't have the numbers. Revenus has been a highly polarizing issue, and few people have given middle-of-the-road opinions. With the strength of the Rev-Towners and the dearth of undecideds, I decided that achieving a majority would be impossible with the current players and tabled him in favor of equally-compelling lynches in the form of Vel and theam, or good compromise lynches like sorgster, funkybike, or vijay.

*As I write this, it occurs to me that Slandaar was possibly the counter-wagon to Revenus, and I should go back and examine it further for scum at its roots. That said, Slandaar had been a good candidate for a while, so it may have happened naturally.

This latest "AHA! YOU SUSPECT ME SO YOU MUST BE SCUM" post is a perfect example from Revenus of his flailing style. Right now, I think he is desperate to look good, and jumping on one of the scummiest players in a false slip may be his way of doing it.

If one or both of you were to support a Revenus lynch, I would prefer it above Velazanth and immediately move back. With one or both of you and Beck joining in, we'd be capable of hitting the necessary majority.

[Pine]

Slips plural, smargaret. I let the first one go because he played the newb card believably, and it admittedly wasn't rock solid. Two slips, with the second one this strong? I want him dead today, tonight, or tomorrow at the latest. Then theam, then we'll make some associations based on flips.

OH! Something else you should know.

Read the first post again. Flavor is all about two rival gangs, so it's very likely we're dealing with multiple scumteams. Kill flavor of two gunshots supports this, as does Sorgster's possible slip.

Beck is not obvtown because he talks too much. He's obvtown for a lot of reasons, but volume isn't one.

[Pine]

^Pops is probably scum too, FYI

[Pine]

Nah, Zdenek is Town. I'm fairly sure of it. Got a good reason for your reads? I could never read your slot, and that's not a good thing for you 107 pages in, especially with jumping right onto the biggest wagon in town.

[Pine]

Just for the record, 2665 was heavily fabricated, and I do not appreciate that it was put in quote tags instead of ordinary text without so much as a perfunctory "FTFY".

Mod: Please change the tags

Of course I talk about the Revenus case from my perspective. It's the only one I actually have available to me. Your sarcastic appraisal of my case against Rev is unduly dismissive, and does not address its many legitimate points. Regarding Rev's disappearance, his lurking is

not

characteristic of an unintentional lurker, but rather someone who is laying low to avoid attention. Consider the

massive

paradigm shift in his

style

of posting from when the wagon died on him to now. Style change + volume reduction + keeping up with the thread = intentional active lurking.

[Pine]

It's not as prolonged or pronounced as with Rev, though.

[Pine]

Now he's fear mongering about something that he doesn't even believe.

Where are you pulling this bullshit from? The OP flavor suggests two scumteams, the night kill flavor corroborates, and Sorgster's slip supports it. If there are two teams, we need to be aware of that and notice associations accordingly. Ignoring the possibility can lead to creating false associative Townreads, which subconsciously persist when we confirm a two-team system. That's the opposite of fear mongering, it's wise and cautious planning. And I'll thank you not to say I don't believe what I'm saying.

[Pine]

Pine, links to atleast 3 games where you have tried to outguess the mod

All of them. I'm not going to rifle through all of my games to prove a point which is irrelevant on top of stupid.

Two teams of 3-4 or one team of 4-6 is what makes sense. I have no idea what Zdenek is smoking, we discussed this on Day One when we were thinking one scum team, and he had no issue with it then.

[Pine]

You didn't actually read the whole thing you quoted, did you?

[Pine]

22 people: Probably 5 scum with 2 strong PRs or 3 weak ones, or 6 with 1-2 weak PRs at most. Definitely an SK or some other third party (perhaps Traitor to work with the atypical scum math). Town will have 4-6 PRs depending on strength, with 1 strong or 2 weak (each) investigative and protective. Roleblocker and/or Jailkeeper probably present, vig almost certainly. Backup roles may fill the rest. Good chance of 2-3 Masons or a Neighborhood/Neighborizer.

By the way, this is what I was referring to.

[Pine]

What's your point? You still haven't shown me anything whatsoever to support either fearmongering, or that I'm advancing an opinion I don't believe in. And you also haven't addressed the fact that setup speculation is something I do all the damn time, including earlier in this thread when you didn't bat an eye at it.

[Pine]

Just for giggles, here's Beck's requested three. These are far from the only examples, but sifting through each game is laborious even when good examples are there to be found. Also, you'll note that they aren't randomly chosen, but instead comprise a varied range of alignments and situations.

NY 139 - Very recent, Sorgster was in it near endgame with me. Town.
NY 130: Mirror Mafia - Two links there. Black scumteam, two scumteams and a SK, scum not informed of multiple teams.
Repo! Mafia - Theme game, Town.

[Pine]

You're right, people never change their opinions from their initial reactions to a more considered position a week or two later. You've got me.

My change to 3 v 3 was largely based on review of NY 129, the first multiple-team game I played. That was a large game with 3 v 3. At most, we're looking at 4 v 4, with a SK possibly making it 9 total.

[Pine]

For the record, I'm feeling better on Pine because of his suspicions on theam. He's been posting like he knows everyone's alignment, and like Pine said, has been apprehensive and is always asking "is it ok if I feel this person is scummy?"

Zde, i'm down with crushing Pine, but theam needs to go. However, if you swing more people your way, I will happily jump on that wagon.

These are separated by three or four contentless posts from Revenus. Did I call this, or what? Self-serving in the extreme. He was only buddying up to me because I moved off his wagon. Revenus needs to eat rope or a bullet.

[Pine]

I can't help but notice that amongst Vel's Town reads, none of them are people I can recall theam attacking. And oh hey, his final scumlist lacks theam as well.

[Pine]

Vote: Revenus

Need to sort through pops' ISO now.

[Pine]

Mason Buddy should not out themselves

Seriously wtf. Why don't you hunt confirmed Town a little more, theam?

[Pine]

Revenus or theam today. No excuses, no diversions, no counterwagons.

[Pine]

Counterwagons are bad. This game has shown that. The Slandaar wagon saved Revenus, though it was of Slandaar's own doing, and the Velazanth wagon saved him again. No excuses.

Your case is crap and is not even internally consistent. First, it does not contain "every single person who thought I was suspicious". Zdenek and Beck are Town because they're Town, not because I couldn't find a way to attack them. You're fabricating motives that don't exist. Further, not everyone on that list was suspicious of me. Funky, Vijay, and Sorgster have registered mild suspicion of me at most, all after I listed them as scummy

first

.

You, sir, are the one desperately trying to survive another day.

[Pine]

How about you shut the fuck up? Either way, it doesn't make me scum.

[Pine]

TheAm's case still

presupposes

me to be scum, which negates its validity.

Beck, how about you stop whining to the mods whenever someone rolls their eyes at you. I didn't insult you, and your petulance is becoming really tiresome.

[Pine]

Rephrase, as that doesn't seem clear upon rereading - TheAm's case is entirely based on evdence that is circumstantial at best.

[Pine]

Umm, what the fuck? I'm definitely not scum.

Explain yourself, DGB.

[Pine]

Except that he can't possibly. DGB is known for her gambits, and this is one of them. I'd think she's trying to hit me back for [REDACTED], but that would be even poorer form than her conduct in [REDACTED].

[Pine]

It's a gambit because it's a faked result. DGB replaced ScreamingHawk, who I'm positive was Town. This is a Town gambit, and my evidence is that she didn't say who in her first post of the day, but instead teased with "I know something you don't", and fished to see if it would be taken seriously.

I'm going to be forced to claim anyway.

Claim: Vigilante

I killed Pops N2, and tried to kill TheAm N1, but was stopped. TheAm is either Bulletproof or was saved by a Doc. Scum protective roles are common in games with multiple scum factions, and that was part of what fueled my D2-start confidence in multiple scumteams.

[Pine]

In a game this size, I was thinking he was a JoaT with a killing power, actually.

[Pine]

So theAm, are you bulletproof scum, or Pop's lucky buddy?

[Pine]

Pine, you're full of wind, why are you saying my results are fake, when you are

in fact

KILLING PEOPLE AT NIGHT?

First of all, I think you're gambiting. Second, if you aren't, then you're probably a Tracker and saw me kill someone and immediately (and wrongly) leaped to scum.

In a game this size, I was thinking he was a JoaT with a killing power, actually.

Rev claimed vig day 1. Why did you not counter claim immediately? It makes no sense to me unless you are lying about the vig claim.

Why the hell would I out myself like that? Vig is an important Town role, and I was thinking at that time that Rev also had a Town PR and needed to be protected. Scum serious-claiming vig like that didn't make sense. When it came out that he was fakeclaiming, my read changed to him possibly fishing for the vig, if any. That's when my Rev suspicion began.

In a game this size, I was thinking he was a JoaT with a killing power, actually.

Rev claimed vig day 1. Why did you not counter claim immediately? It makes no sense to me unless you are lying about the vig claim.

Pine is probably a Serial Killer pretending another player is a Serial Killer, but not wanting to draw attention to the term "Serial Killer" because it applies to him, so he's calling theamateur "bulletproof scum."

I'm asking if he's bulletproof because I tried to kill him and he didn't die.

[Pine]

And Serial Killers don't show up as Mafia, by the way. So good job outing your gambit.

[Pine]

What the fuck? I ASSUME I DON'T SHOW UP AS SCUM BECAUSE I'M FUCKING NOT. THAT MAKES YOU A LIAR.

LIAR + DGBTOWN = GAMBIT.

I KILLED SCUM, AND MY FAILED N1 KILL MEANS THEAM IS TOO.

[Pine]

I wasn't 100% positive that theam wasn't Bulletproof Town or Doctored. His reaction just now eliminates BP Townie as a possibility (he'd have claimed it) and the odds of Hiraki Doc'ing theam (who Hiraki mentioned only once, and early in the game in a null way) are very slim compared to the odds of him being BP scum or Pop's lucky buddy. Pop's flip gave me the information I needed to push hard on theam. Prior to a Mafia Doc flip, I had no way of knowing whether scum had a protective role or not.

[Pine]

ScreamingHawk was Town. She replaced ScreamingHawk.

I started today thinking Revenus or theam interchangeably. I'm 98% sure on both of them.

[Pine]

Besides, I hadn't processed the Mafia Doc flip 100% when I posted at day start.

PE: That's true, I suppose. Beck was the more obvious roleblock, though, with his blatant softclaiming.

PE2: I explained my lack of cc. Mainly, I didn't want to give myself away that early. I didn't shoot Beck because I was positive of his Town credentials by day end.

[Pine]

What part of "I didn't think he was scum" confused you. I agonized over whether to cc him. I decided he was either just a derp making a joke, a JOAT who actually meant to kill that night, or scum fishing for a CC. In any of those three scenarios, cc'ing is the wrong thing to do.

I didn't kill Rev because I intended to lynch him, and had the support to get it done. You don't shoot someone you can get lynched, you shoot someone who is a strong scumread but for whom little support exists to lynch. Like theam N1 or Pops N2

[Pine]

@smarg: I had a strong Townread on him at the time, and it was a softclaim. I was willing to consider alternative scenarios.

As it happens, I CHOSE CORRECTLY. He was joking or fishing or both, and I didn't out myself to scum. YOU'RE WELCOME. That decision led directly to Pops being dead now and our information on TheAm.

You're not thinking this through from my PoV, Sorgster. Not that I blame you, considering you're scum and desperate to kill me before I can kill any more scum. The wagon on TheAm was not strong, and wasn't likely to result in a lynch for days at least, barring cop results or whatever. Same goes for Pops. The wagon on Rev got to L-2 or L-1 or whatever, and

could

CAN definitely be revived for a lynch. Shooting him would have been a wasted shot. Go read some MS articles on Vig tactics.

[Pine]

I haven't killed any Townies, Sorgster. I've only killed scum. Which of my actions don't make sense? You've completely failed to explain that point against me.

I was halfway to being lynched with a fakeclaimed guilty on me. I claimed so I could lay out the evidence showing I was not possibly cop-guilty, and why Tracker/Watcher results could be false-positives.

[Pine]

The actions of not ccing but claiming with little pressure on you. Not listening to your directing the vig's advice to kill beck, not killing rev as he would have been confscum to you,etc.
You claimed only AFTER the cop possibility was gone on you.

Not CCing Revenus

: I have explained this at least twice. I had a strong Townread on Revenus, and thought he was fakeclaiming. It sounded like a joke, and I didn't want to out myself before I'd done the Town any good. Because it was phrased as a joke, I still think it might have been rolefishing, because if I'd CC'd, he could easily have been all "Whoa, I was obviously joking. Chill." and I'd have been stuck outed.

Claiming at halfway to lynch

: The wagon was ramping up on me very, very quickly, going from 1 person to 5 in only a few minutes. I needed to halt its progress, disprove the gambit, and lay down my defense before I got quick-mislynched. I was successful.

Not killing Beck

: You really are out to twist my words, aren't you? I said Vig should kill Beck (this was an attempt to fish for any SK, there does not appear to be one) and serious at the time (middle D1). By N1, it was clear to me that Beck could not possibly be scum, so I swallowed my personal dislike of him and let him go.

Not killing Revenus

: You're NOT PAYING ATTENTION. We can get Revenus LYNCHED. Why would I waste my shot on him when I can kill someone else I have a strong scumread on (A CORRECT ONE) and push for a resumption of the Revenus wagon D3?

Claiming after Cop possibility was gone

: Cop was never a possibility, bar Framer. I thought DGB might have a Tracker/Watcher result on me, and was responding to that.

[Pine]

...Other21. Beck: I struggled with where to put Beck. Frankly, he simply doesn't fit in any of my other categories. I find him more likely than even odds to be Town, but I still encourage our Vig/SK to put him out of his our misery. Succinctly put, his self-centered and obnoxious attitude combined with his propensity for prolific posting is a detriment to the Town and a haven for active lurkers.

Um, you actually had a townish read on him when you said to vig him. His towniness doesn't change the fact that you find his posting style difficult to deal with, which is the reason you wanted to see him vigged.

The degree of my Town read on him changed considerably. It was "townish" at the time, but uncertain. By the end of the day, it was so strong that I couldn't (and can't) justify killing him.

I don't have a scumread on SV. If I were out of strong scumreads and into killing lurkers, he'd be at the top of the list.

[Pine]

Why did you not kill SV?

You suck if you are vig and didn't kill him.

But you aren't vig so die scum.

@Mods: I am taking a page out of Beck's book. Please either modkill him or lift the restriction against me insulting him. Thanks!

[Pine]

I answered it in 2835.

[Pine]

Check the flavor of the kills. Mine was the smothering. I have it directly from the Mods that Mafia kills simply show up as "died". Also, someone else survived an attack last night, probably got saved by a Mafia Doc.

[Pine]

Actually, I had free reign over the flavor. Hence why I got a straight answer from chk. I decided smothering was a relatively merciful way to kill someone.

Let me live another day, and I can prove this point by killing someone with a stuffed animal laced with LSD.

[Pine]

Oh hell no. I'm not taking that poisoned bait. I don't trust a damn one of you, and I will NOT be accepting orders as to who to kill. It's a flawed premise anyway, especially given the proven existence of Mafia protective roles.

[Pine]

I know exactly who I intend to kill next, barring surprise revelations between now and then, and I will not be telling anyone who it is. I've already had my ability blocked once, and it won't be happening a second time.

[Pine]

I will take suggestions, but the decision will be mine, and mine alone.

I don't know if there are multiple protective roles. I do know that with two teams (confirmed after chk let slip to me that the Mafia kill flavor was "died",) and a vig, then each team having a Doctor makes sense, and discarding that possibility is reckless at best.

[Pine]

Heh, probably not. I think it would have to make sense. "Deadguy was found with an LSD-laced stuffed bunny rabbit stuffed down his throat" might work, but "Deadguy has died of a critical and unfulfilled need to read Sorgster's ISO" probably wouldn't.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: theamateur

[Pine]

Yeah...except I can prove it.

You're a Mafia Roleblocker, if anything.

[Pine]

^Provable lie

Look at the flavors. Mafia kills show up as "Deadguy has died". Mine shows up as "Deadguy whateverthehellIwant". I can PROVE this fact.

[Pine]

Check the flavor of the kills. Mine was the smothering. I have it directly from the Mods that Mafia kills simply show up as "died".

Also, someone else survived an attack last night, probably got saved by a Mafia Doc.

[Pine]

If I'd been roleblocked, I would not have claimed to be the killer of Pops. I wouldn't have claimed it at all.

The odds of you having been roleblocked sound slim, but jump up a lot when you consider that you're in most peoples' top three scumreads, including the other team's. Hell, if I were a roleblocker, you'd be one of my top choices to block in the hopes of halting a kill.

[Pine]

@Pine,

why was screaminghawk town?

Without extensive archive diving, it was mostly some D1 stuff that I just can't see coming from scum. I talked about it in my 2 reads wallposts. The first one is like 354 or 435 or something.

[Pine]

Yeah, there was all kinds of D1 linkage between them. Both of them spent a majority of the day tunneling on the other.

[Pine]

I haven't started a Pops ISO yet, actually. I became distracted, you might say. Considering it's 2:38 AM, it's not going to happen tonight.

[Pine]

^Ironic post is ironic. Beck doesn't get the joke.

[Pine]

mod isn't going to answer that, plus I doubt the mod told pine anything about mafia kills flip with "died"

He didn't answer a question about it, I think it was an unintentional slip. I was asking a question about my make-your-own-flavor ability, and chk let slip that the Mafia flavor is simply "died". I doubt he considered the ramifications of saying that, as it confirmed to me that there's two Mafia teams (given the flavor of the N1 kills) and gave me a way to confirm that I'm a vig, not Mafia.

@Pine,

what would the flavour be if you targeted a mafia kill?

I don't understand the question.
----------
@Maxous: I have answered all of the points you've made against me fully and completely. Most of them seem to stem from your lack of understanding of basic vig strategy. YOU DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE YOU CAN GET LYNCHED. You shoot people who are likely to slip away for another day or two. Hiraki was never a strong scumread of mine. Revenus I am POSITIVE I don't have to waste a shot on, as we can get a noose fitted in his size as soon as people stop derailing wagons against him. TheAm was a good shot because although many people agreed he was probably scum, he wasn't high enough on most peoples' list to get a wagon any time soon. Pops was a good kill for the exact same reason, and GUESS WHAT. SCUM.

You don't shoot lurkers until you run out of scumreads. That's not going to happen any time soon. I didn't shoot Hiraki, look at the flavor. Hiraki "died". Pops, my actual kill, was "smothered". WHY THE FUCK WOULD I CLAIM THIS IF I COULDN'T PROVE IT?

I don't think DGB gambited against me

purely

out of spite, though I think that may have been a motive. I knew it was a gambit immediately because "mod-confirmed scum" can ONLY mean a cop result, and I'M TOWN. Barring the existence of the very-rare Framer role, this is impossible. So I called her bluff immediately. When a bad wagon gained momentum, I claimed, thinking perhaps she had a Tracker/Watcher result and was trying to make it more telling than it really was.

Jesus Christ, people, read the fucking thread. I've repeated things two, three, four times now.

[Pine]

Actually, I'm somewhat inclined to believe theAm's roleblocker claim, though not the Town alignment claim that goes along with it. If I were a roleblocker, theAm would be high on my target list. It is quite conceivable that he tried to roleblock me, and got roleblocked himself.

[Pine]

I just don't see any benefit or plausible reason for theAm to claim roleblocking me other than the above scenario.

[Pine]

Sorgster, you're not paying attention. I think TheAm got roleblocked, which per mod, prevents his block of me.

[Pine]

Not usually.

[Pine]

Usually the only notification is for investigative roles who get "No Result"

[Pine]

YOU DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE YOU CAN GET LYNCHED.

Hahaha, that's also what scum does, and that's also what SKs do.

Hahahahhahahahhaha

IT'S ALSO WHAT A VIG DOES. ANYONE WITH A KILLING POWER DOES IT.

[Pine]

Bullshit.

I'm Town. And you've been pushing the SK angle VERY hard. SKs don't show up as guilty, they aren't Mafia.

Try again.

[Pine]

I also don't think you'd use a 1-shot Cop on someone in the spotlight, who already has a hefty amount of suspicion cast upon them. You would've used it on a lurker, someone impossible to read like Sky, SV, or even ThAd.

[Pine]

You can't seriously keep thinking that calling a 1-shot Cop guilty and pushing me as SK is going to fly with anyone other than those who already want my blood, can you? They're not actually compatible.

You're bluffing, and bluffing badly. Out of spite.

[Pine]

I wasn't too worried about it. TheAm has played so scumtacularly, his days are numbered regardless of what I crumbed or not.

[Pine]

The bolded only means that finding someone who DOESN'T think you're scum is practically impossible. The only way you survive every day is peoples' attention being distracted.

Nice attempt at a misrep though.

[Pine]

No we don't. Everything about your claim smells rotten. First, I'm Town, so a guilty result is impossible. Second, you actually denied claiming cop at one point. Third, you've been pushing me as SK over Mafia, which is incompatible with your claimed guilty. Fourth, I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I'm not Mafia, again disproving your claimed result. Fifth, using a 1-shot power on someone with loads of content instead of on a no-content lurker is ridiculously implausible for someone of your experience.

Admit your gambit and shut the fuck up about it.

[Pine]

1. No
2. No
3. No, and this was a stupid question, we've already ruled out werewolves.
4. No, and Normal conditions make this a stupid condition as well, as Mafia/Werewolf/SK are the only permitted anti-Town roles.
5. You phrased this incorrectly, but I'm going to assume you meant "If 1-4 are not true, how can you prove it." I can prove I'm not Mafia/Werewolf with an individualized flavor.

As for your point about SKs and cops, most Mods rule that only Mafia/Werewolves come back guilty, but we can settle this.

@Mods: Under your rules, do Serial Killers show up as guilty to Cops?

[Pine]

No, DGB is Town. Whatever else you're doing, you are not lynching her.

Refer to this post after I flip Town.

DGB is Town in the same way Beck is Town. Both are wrong, both are pissing me off to no extent, and both are playing BADLY. But both are also Town.

[Pine]

smargaret looks like newbscum who is trying way too hard to get a mislynch on pine and is now hoping to plant seeds of suspicion on my 'obvtown' status.

She's not newb, she's just overreaching. Otherwise, QFT.

[Pine]

Lurklurklurklurkrolefishlurklurk.

^Scum

Please do not claim, roleblocker. You'll quickly find yourself dead. Not that a scum roleblocker is likely to claim anyway.

[Pine]

At the cost of outing

another

possible Town PR? I'll take my chances.

[Pine]

You have a point.

[Pine]

What the fuck? Why did you switch your vote to me, SV?

[Pine]

Well first things first.
Pine- he is definitely lying. His vig claim was under little pressure and he claimed that you couldn't get a guilty on him, and he asked chkflip about the 3rd party cop investigation. Serial Killer, or a Godfather type role would be the best bets.
I need to leave for a while. Ill iso everyone else and tell my reads later.

I was trying to disprove once and for all DGB's gambit, you knob. Mods confirming that SKs receive a "Not Guilty" result as I had thought would clear me completely from DGB's fakeclaim. If I were an SK, that's one of the first questions I would have asked, in private, and not risked having a good chunk of my defense publicly blown out of the water.

Can anyone, anyone at all, honestly say that they think theAm is anything other than scum?

[Pine]

Revenus is either a Godfather or scummiest Townie ever in the history of everything. I'm not going to dispute the cop on it though, I've never been correct when I charged ahead with a BUT HE COULD BE GF charge. If we near endgame, and Revenus is still alive with no GF flip, he becomes a viable candidate again. Until then, GFs are usually powerless other than investigation-immunity, and having one (per scumteam perhaps) makes sense with a Cop in the game.

[Pine]

If they're on the same night it doesn't matter the order.

[Pine]

^lol, voting for the cop

#badscumspotted

[Pine]

You don't investigate strong reads. You investigate people that you don't have any firm handle on. Smarg and vijay are reasonable investigations at this point, but even better are the true lurkers like Sky and ThAd.

Sorg is a bad investigation. He's become obvscum.

Bvoigt is very obvTown, and a waste of an investigation.

Whether or not I'm a good investigation is dependent on perspective. If you have a strong opinion, it's a waste of an investigation. If not, feel free. I have nothing left to hide.

[Pine]

#lolhypocrisy

[Pine]

One point while I'm unable to respond fully (on phone).

TheAm claims Rolling Heights tried to kill me and failed, yet he still stubbornly insists I am Mafia. However, there were in fact two kills last night. This is beyond-a-doubt proof that a vig exists; considering lack of counterclaim, I am precisely what I say I am.

[Pine]

I intend to. I guess we'll see whether a second scum roleblocker exists, or whether it's a Town RB/JK.

[Pine]

Watchers would be wise to target me tonight. You might catch a scum roleblocker or even my killer. Win-win.

[Pine]

Yeah, continue trying to smear the cop-innocent obvTown who is one of the only people in this thread actually using logic to decipher this Gordian knot.

Oh right, you're confirmed and hammered scum trying to take as many people with you as possible.

For the record, I am NOT bulletproof. TheAm is a liar. I was thinking the alleged Rolecop might have picked up on Zel1nk's inventor BP gift, but he said it was given N2. For TheAm to have a Rolecop's report, he'd had to have investigated me N1. It's really understandable, though, as TheAm is trying to take down one of the biggest threats to scum in the game. Was Pops your buddy, TheAm? Is that why you're so buttsore at me? Worried I'll look through your ISO and Pop's and find your last remaining budd(ies) and end your side?

[Pine]

Umm, no it's not, I struck down upon Pops with great vengeance and furious anger, he who would poison and destroy my brothers. Check flavor plzkthx. Not sure why you're insisting on this.

^That will be my flavor, or some variation of it.

[Pine]

Who?

[Pine]

It would be useful (to your buddies as well) if you did something more than try to take me down with you. Provide some reads on your opposing gang, I'll do what I can to kill them too.

[Pine]

By the way, with TheAm saying Pops is not his buddy, and the effort he's putting into taking me down, there's proof for about the tenth time that I am not Mafia, but am in fact the Vigilante.

[Pine]

Not necessarily. His input regarding the opposing scumteam is worth hearing, he has no reason to lie about that.

PE: More, please. There's at least two, maybe three in the opposing team.

How about you tell us definitively how many Mafia are in each team? I can't imagine the two teams are uneven in number. It'll help us hunt your enemies too.

[Pine]

Hmmm. Okay, we can infer from that that there are three-member scumteams (TheAm didn't consider a fourth member to Pop's team), and that with TheAm's death, both will be down to only two members. Cool. Cool cool cool. /Abed

[Pine]

I just had the sudden realization that Vijay is Town.

No, I will not be explaining that. Yes, I have a very good reason for it. I found something while reading his ISO that makes it virtually impossible for him to be scum.

Carry on.

[Pine]

Every single person on there persisted after the gambit was defeated.

Don't care if you don't see vijay Town. I've spotted it, and for his own protection, I am not elaborating. Suffice yourself that I am proven not to be Mafia, and therefore not protecting a buddy. Even if you are laboring under the misguided misapprehension that I'm a SK, I have no reason to defend someone I had as a scu
read until recently.

[Pine]

Funkybike was a good kill, though surprisingly in error. It should not be a surprise, as many, probably most of us have expressed strong suspicion of him in the past.

Mods: You gave an affiliation flip on TheAm. May I ask that you clarify Pop's affiliation in the same way?

Multiple players have asked about this. Rest assured, it is on our radar and will be addressed. Thanks. -DY

Haven't decided who to vote for. Leaning towards Rev again, or maybe sorgster.

Beck, what do you think my alignment is? I'm simply curious at this point, because the degree to which you're tunnelled on me seems to be impairing your ability to see reason, or really even do much else.

[Pine]

Gonna assume you were jked then. Also explains the lack of a third kill

@ pine: rev is cop confirmed innocent.

Thanks for the reminder. I knew there was a reason I'd wanted to hold back on him, but my laptop is broken and it's hard to scroll back in the archives on a phone at 4AM or whenever it was.

Beck...I'll deal with you when I have a laptop and can writte a wallpost about you.

DGB, dear, you're tunnelling so hard that you didn't even notice there's more than one page to my ISO. Shit, I even mentioned him on my short list of suspects near the end of the day.

I mentioned the Pulp Fiction quote after I decided LSD bear was too farfetched. It's in the thread.

Busdriver is definitely not Normal, Jailkeeper definitely is.

Vote: Sorgster

Case when I get home from work.

Funky's kill was "in error" because he surprisingly ended up being Town.

[Pine]

Many, perhaps most, Vigilantes in Large games are infinite shot. Just off the top of my head, NY131 springs to mind.