NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[LoudmouthLee]

In honor of the truly old school...

Original Roll String: 1d22

1 22-Sided Dice: (10) = 10

[LoudmouthLee]

Wow... talk about a backfire... Rerolling.

Original Roll String: 1d22 (STATIC)

1 22-Sided Dice: (22) = 22

[LoudmouthLee]

Random Vote: Tigris

. Glad to be back.

[LoudmouthLee]

random my ass! you edited those dice you dog.

Pfft. Your memories post halted my dice rolling.

Rollus Interruptus.

PS: STD is another Postus Interruptus. Stop DiceBlocking me.

[LoudmouthLee]

Not feeling MafiaSSK either.

Tigris is much more interesting.

Glork is a definite town read right now.

...
I'm also not feeling the MafiaSSK votes. Seems like a poor excuse to vote him even for this early in the game. I understand what he is trying to say about bandwagons being one of the best ways to garner information, but they aren't the only way.

Unvote, Vote: Seol

This is quite an interesting post. Sotty decides to not be a part of either of the two main wagons, citing a poor excuse this early in the game to vote. It's page 3. There is no bad reason to vote for someone at this stage. I don't exactly know why, but this post tripped me up a little bit. In my opinion, there are a few reasons to vote for both Tigris and MafiaSSK. With the risk of repeating what others have said:

...

2.)

Vote: MafiaSSK

for this:

...why would I join a bandwagon instead of choosing an alternative that I think may lead to more information on the first day?

Because bandwagons are guaranteed information especially at high vote counts. You choosing to go after someone different has in fact more potential to gain less information...

Tigris's 3rd vote "vote" seems to play on the old timer's emotions... it's a "tell" that we all know and have looked at before. Almost like trying to garner trust with the town. I like my vote where it is right now, and...

FoS: MafiaSSK

@Seol, in response to 54 - If a bandwagon is arbitrary and standard opening, why the defense of Tigris?

[LoudmouthLee]

...I'm not a fan of any of the MafiaSSK votes on this page. Feels like a bunch of strong players going for an easy target. I especially don't like LML's #62, which nicely sets up a potential switch to the MafiaSSK wagon while maintaining a push on Tigris. Seems like something scum might do to make sure that two wagons keep momentum.

Am I not allowed to think two people seem scummy? If so, then I've been playing this game wrong for years.

@VitaminR, Do you believe in the finger of suspicion - Can you be voting for someone and find somebody else equally scummy?

[LoudmouthLee]

Of course you can find two people scummy. It's more about the fact that they seem like weak wagons to me and it seems convenient that those are your two suspects. It's a little bit too 'going with the crowd' for me and I don't remember you as that kind of player.

You're absolutely correct. I tend to shy away from group think. My random vote was on Tigris to begin with. After the

Third Vote Tell

bandwagon jumping, I decided that my vote was a good vote to keep there. With that being said, I since have found others to be scummy: moreso than Tigris, especially based on post 91. With that, I'll

Unvote: Tigris

Serious vote.

And would you like to elaborate on your motives?

unvote, Vote: undo

If you're going to pick up on any one thing in this discussion, that seems like a weird one.

Wait, how are you literally seeing anything scummy from that post? This looks like such a piss poor excuse for a vote.

This exchange makes me really uncomfortable. At every turn. I dislike Albert's lack of.. well... anything. He has not seem to be scumhunting whatsoever, and if he is, he is not sharing any analysis thus far. What's more telling, however, was Undo asking a legitimate question, and STD running to defend Albert's lack of substance. Strangely, MafiaSSK's response to Save The Dragon's post is similar to mine. There's something here, in this exchange, and I think I know where to start.

Vote: Save the Dragons

@Albert - Although my gut initially is to OMGUS you right away, I want to know why your first serious vote has been levied on me. Please explain.
@Undo - How did you feel about the previous wagons of MafiaSSK and Tigris?

[LoudmouthLee]

With two little girls in the house, I do not get to post on the weekends very often. Sorry in advance. Please expect a few responses tomorrow morning, around 8am EST.

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm here. Long post incoming...

[LoudmouthLee]

I need both of you to trust me. Right now, okay? Please just work with me here, and I promise I will explain everything later, okay?

'You’re an insane, degenerate piece of filth, and you deserve to die.'

...
Why did you feel the need to telegraph a potential vote change?

This mirrored my thinking exactly. I'm currently a fan of chamber's play, and have him pro-town.

Thank you for your answer. Now please answer who you think the "weak" players are in the game.

You are correct that I am not concerned with whether MafiaSSK is a "weak" player. I am concerned with lynching scum.

I refrained from doing so for a reason. I gave you the answer that was behind my reaction to the MafiaSSK wagon (strong at theory, with reputations = you, Seol, LML; not so = MafiaSSK, Tigris). I don't see how it's a useful exercise for me to say who I think isn't that good at mafia. (Not that I even really have particular people in mind.)

Okay, I gave an FOS to MafiaSSK, and I never voted him. If you would like to run a meta on me (which you're MORE than welcome to), I FoS everyone. Hell, I'd FoS my mother if she said something that I don't agree with. I also tend to confirm vote as well. I'm trying not to make broad, sweeping judgements yet because, well... we're just beginning D1. Here's what I can tell you about my play. I random voted Tigris via dice roll, and changed my vote to StD. I'm tried to scum-hunt with what I have at my disposal, but if you think you're going to catch scum THIS early with small "common" tells, you're sadly mistaken. This game will be trying. Completely.

With that being said, I feel somewhat uncomfortable with D1 players that constantly vote-hop looking for a bandwagon to start. I don't remember playing with Tripod, but he's being quite ridiculous with his votes. Possibly his meta, and when I have some time, it's something I'm willing to research.

Sotty thoughts on LML and petroleumjelly?

LML is probably scum, his early jump on both the early wagons was pretty weak and his movement away hasn't swayed my mind away from this. I'm looking to see what his post weekend posts have to say about the state of the game.

You're wrong here, Sotty. I can only go back to the fact that I made a grand total of two posts about MafiaSSK, and gave him an FOS. Please feel free to meta me.

Here's what I can say: I still like the Save the Dragons vote.

Clearly suspicious retaliatory Vote: Untrod Tripod

UNVOTE: whatever
VOTE: MafiaSSK

Unvote, Vote Seol

unvote, Vote: undo

undo: vote: undo, redo: vote: Seol

wait, that's not right.

Unvote: undo, Vote: Seol

Vote: LML

StD has tried to right the coattails of not 1, not 2, but *3* different wagons on day one without truly doing any sort of scumhunting at all. Although I would expect this from someone like AbR or DGB, StD's meta doesn't seem to corroborate this.

I'm really happy with my StD vote.

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay, I gave an FOS to MafiaSSK, and I never voted him. If you would like to run a meta on me (which you're MORE than welcome to), I FoS everyone. Hell, I'd FoS my mother if she said something that I don't agree with. I also tend to confirm vote as well. I'm trying not to make broad, sweeping judgements yet because, well... we're just beginning D1. Here's what I can tell you about my play. I random voted Tigris via dice roll, and changed my vote to StD. I'm tried to scum-hunt with what I have at my disposal, but if you think you're going to catch scum THIS early with small "common" tells, you're sadly mistaken. This game will be trying. Completely.

I wasn't really talking about you as much there, but I get your point. I'm not so sure what you're responding to with the second part of this, though. I'm well aware of the fact that my impression of you so far could be entirely wrong-headed.

But, to be fair to myself, here's what I see:

You went along easily with two pretty weak wagons. I pressured you on it and you immediately back off the Tigris vote (I get that you're saying now that your Tigris vote was still sort of a random vote, but Post 62 and Post 70 didn't sound that way and you only started saying that after I pressured you).

Then you switch to an StD vote, based on one exchange with undo and some vote-hopping of his you illustrate, while ignoring the majority of the content he's posted. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

How much is "a little bit more"? While trying to keep pressure on an undercontributing player is pro-town, the wording of this post indicates that LML doesn't have to do a whole lot more than just show up for you to move your vote, giving me the impression that you're keeping it there more for appearance than actual pressure.

I didn't really mean it that way. If you've read any of my posts, you'll know I'm not voting LML to get him to contribute. I just meant that I'm hoping to get a better sense of him from his response to being under pressure while he catches up with the game.

To be completely fair again, a LOT of people went alone with two weak wagons. Hell, some of the people you've quite ignored have actually BEEN on 3 or 4 wagons thus far. Why have they earned a pass from you?

[LoudmouthLee]

That's all you're going to respond to? I've already explained multiple times why I felt your move stood out in particular. You're just picking on my wording there.

So, to paraphrase you: You're voting me because I went along with two (wait, one and an FoS) weak wagons with less than 7 pages on D1, and when I find something that truly looks and smells scummy to me, I change my vote to that person?

When I voted StD, I had a grand total of 2 or 3 votes on me (You, DrippingGoofball- who will vote for me regardless of anything whatsoever due to history, and Albert- who also likes voting me as well) - Hardly a wagon. There was no real pressure (sorry!) for me to make a move. I did it because I'm actively scum hunting.

[LoudmouthLee]

Kill LML

Your scumhunting has remained as prevalent as ever. :thumbs:

That's all you're going to respond to? I've already explained multiple times why I felt your move stood out in particular. You're just picking on my wording there.

So, to paraphrase you: You're voting me because I went along with two (wait, one and an FoS) weak wagons with less than 7 pages on D1, and when I find something that truly looks and smells scummy to me, I change my vote to that person?

When I voted StD, I had a grand total of 2 or 3 votes on me (You, DrippingGoofball- who will vote for me regardless of anything whatsoever due to history, and Albert- who also likes voting me as well) - Hardly a wagon. There was no real pressure (sorry!) for me to make a move. I did it because I'm actively scum hunting.

LmL, can you explain what your stance was on Tigras was again? Was it a random vote, or was it an actual suspicion, and if so, why? I'm getting a little confused about what you're trying to say here.

Yos, going back to the opening page, my first post was a dice roll (myself) and the second post was a re-roll. Tigris was the vote in RVS. I didn't move it to begin with because of Tigris's hop on MafiaSSK for being the third person to vote on a wagon, twice. I kept my vote on Tigris instead of moving it because (a) no one, at the moment, was more suspicious and (b) my vote was there already.

I know this may not make any sense, but my suspicion of Tigris would have not have warranted a vote at the time... but since my vote was already there, I kept it there. It would have warranted a FoS.

@LoudmouthLee:

Back in Post 62 you FOSed MafiaSSK while maintaining your vote on Tigris. You defended your FOS suspicion of MafiaSSK in Post 70. But I didn't catch where you actually explained why you were suspicious of MafiaSSK (so much so, that you would have voted MafiaSSK if not for Tigris's invocation of the third-on-the-bandwagon tell).

Why were you suspicious of MafiaSSK, and does that suspicion still linger?

LML didn't directly respond to this. Instead, he posted:

Okay, I gave an FOS to MafiaSSK, and I never voted him. If you would like to run a meta on me (which you're MORE than welcome to), I FoS everyone. Hell, I'd FoS my mother if she said something that I don't agree with. I also tend to confirm vote as well. I'm trying not to make broad, sweeping judgements yet because, well... we're just beginning D1. Here's what I can tell you about my play. I random voted Tigris via dice roll, and changed my vote to StD. I'm tried to scum-hunt with what I have at my disposal, but if you think you're going to catch scum THIS early with small "common" tells, you're sadly mistaken. This game will be trying. Completely.

From that response completely downplaying his FOS of MafiaSSK, it looks like LML is saying that he never really had any articulable suspicion against MafiaSSK. He just really wanted to FOS him, but not because of any real scum reasons, but because _____. The first answer that my mind jumps to to fill in the blank is a scummy rationale.

LML, please respond (to either my original question, my subsequent point made in this post, or both).

I'll respond to both.

If you'll allow me to Meta myself, I have always posted exactly what I am thinking at the exact moment that I'm thinking it. I don't hold back my thoughts on people. At all. If I'm suspecting you, I'm going to tell you. If you look closely at my posts, I quoted a PJ post, saying that at the risk of repeating what had already been said, here's my rationale for FoSing MafiaSSK.

At the time, I didn't have any wonderful suspicions. It sucks to admit, but I'm kinda feeling like I've lost a step. Like I'm not nearly as good at this game as I used to be.

With that being said, I still think StD is scum.

[LoudmouthLee]

@green: my vote on Tigris was levied during rvs. I didn't move my vote for the reason you stated. Moreover, I didn't switch my vote for the reason you stated as well.

When I had a reason to move my vote, I did.

[LoudmouthLee]

Reposted for everyone who may have missed this.

Not feeling MafiaSSK either.

Tigris is much more interesting.

Glork is a definite town read right now.

...
I'm also not feeling the MafiaSSK votes. Seems like a poor excuse to vote him even for this early in the game. I understand what he is trying to say about bandwagons being one of the best ways to garner information, but they aren't the only way.

Unvote, Vote: Seol

This is quite an interesting post. Sotty decides to not be a part of either of the two main wagons, citing a poor excuse this early in the game to vote. It's page 3. There is no bad reason to vote for someone at this stage. I don't exactly know why, but this post tripped me up a little bit. In my opinion, there are a few reasons to vote for both Tigris and MafiaSSK. With the risk of repeating what others have said:

...

2.)

Vote: MafiaSSK

for this:

...why would I join a bandwagon instead of choosing an alternative that I think may lead to more information on the first day?

Because bandwagons are guaranteed information especially at high vote counts. You choosing to go after someone different has in fact more potential to gain less information...

Tigris's 3rd vote "vote" seems to play on the old timer's emotions... it's a "tell" that we all know and have looked at before. Almost like trying to garner trust with the town. I like my vote where it is right now, and...

FoS: MafiaSSK

@Seol, in response to 54 - If a bandwagon is arbitrary and standard opening, why the defense of Tigris?

[LoudmouthLee]

It is of my opinion that content matters much less than analyzing voting patterns. When the voting patterns lead you to choices, that's when you compare content.

Exhausted, will answer all questions tomorrow.

[LoudmouthLee]

Don't have time for a full-on post right now:

[*]I think anyone who is looking to create a correlation between me and VitR is acting certainly scummy and may very well be trying to domino lynches. Although he's attacking me, I currently have a pro-town read on VitR. Knowing my alignment, I believe that anyone who is trying to say "they can't have the same alignment" are not only pushing for a lynch of me today, but will also be pushing for a lynch of VitR after I flip blue.

[*]One of my favorite things to do is to find the village idiot and hunt scum off of the wagon. That used to be a really easy way to find scum. Also, when you have an outspoken "foot in mouth player" (such as myself and DGB), we become mafia fodder as well.

With that being said, once I don't have students in my classroom, I'm looking at that wagon.

[LoudmouthLee]

That wagon = Nat

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm here. We made it through the fire!

[LoudmouthLee]

Let's jump back in, shall we? Here is a screenshot of my excel file. I said before (and stand by what I said) that D1 is much more about "Vote Reads" rather than "Tell Reads", in my opinion. I have always played this way, and will continue to do so. #rideordie

Generally, I look at D1 voting two different ways, I look for opportunistic scum who takes advantage of the early wagons (So far, the early wagons include Tigris, MafiaSSK, Seol, Myself and, most recently, Zorblag (Far/Nat)).

I also love to pick scum off of village idiot (VI) wagons. The biggest VI wagon out there was Nat. I've never had the opportunity (dare I say, pleasure?) to play with him before, and I probably never will again. He was, however, an easy target to gain momentum on.

Unvote: StD, but IGMEOY

Vote: UT

Rationale:
[*]UT has been on 3 of the major bandwagons, the most out of any player (tied with StD)
[*]UT was also on the Nat wagon which looked incredibly opportunistic at the time.

[LoudmouthLee]

You keep calling Nat the VI wagon this game, but he wasn't. Nat was never going to get lynched for those votes, they were just forcing him to participate or replace out. The VI wagon this game has been an is on MafiaSSK.

You didn't see the Nat wagon to be an easy target to generate votes? I completely did. You've seen this before, Chamber. Someone doesn't participate (or is an abject fool) D1, gets told to participate. Opportunistic time to place votes. If Nat didn't replace out right away, do you think that wagon would have stalled? He was a PERFECT VI.

If you would call the MafiaSSK wagon the VI wagon, the player who was on the most wagons AND the VI wagon was StD. I'm still okay with EITHER of them.

[LoudmouthLee]

Generally, I look at D1 voting two different ways, I look for opportunistic scum who takes advantage of the early wagons (So far, the early wagons include Tigris, MafiaSSK, Seol, Myself and, most recently, Zorblag (Far/Nat)).

What sort of advantage do you think scum get off the early wagons? Both in general, and in particular in this game?

From my experience, any time a mafia member can take heat and push it on someone else, they will do so. Sometimes, people throw shit against the wall just to see what sticks. Do you believe, Shanba, for any reason, any player should have been on three major wagons already? It's either sheeping or hiding, and either way, it's not pro-town.

[LoudmouthLee]

Let's jump back in, shall we? Here is a screenshot of my excel file. I said before (and stand by what I said) that D1 is much more about "Vote Reads" rather than "Tell Reads", in my opinion. I have always played this way, and will continue to do so. #rideordie

Generally, I look at D1 voting two different ways, I look for opportunistic scum who takes advantage of the early wagons (So far, the early wagons include Tigris, MafiaSSK, Seol, Myself and, most recently, Zorblag (Far/Nat)).

I also love to pick scum off of village idiot (VI) wagons. The biggest VI wagon out there was Nat. I've never had the opportunity (dare I say, pleasure?) to play with him before, and I probably never will again. He was, however, an easy target to gain momentum on.

Unvote: StD, but IGMEOY

Vote: UT

Rationale:
[*]UT has been on 3 of the major bandwagons, the most out of any player (tied with StD)
[*]UT was also on the Nat wagon which looked incredibly opportunistic at the time.

@Yos: did you just skim or completely miss this post and the subsequent discussion?

[LoudmouthLee]

Oh, for the record, STD is town. So far, he's picked a fight with Seol, LML, me, and PJ, who are 4 people that are all absurdly good at getting people lynched, all in the first 13 pages of day 1, without any obvious benefit to him from picking all those fights. So either he's righteous town cloaked in the paladin-like armor of righteousness, or he's gone completely suicidal. No way a scum pretending to scumhunt would stick their neck out that far.

He even attacked me for attacking Undo for the same thing he attacked Undo for earlier this game, which is so completely inconsistent it must be a town tell.

Oh! That's cool, Yos! Find an inconsistency and call it protown? That's the weirdest thing you may have ever said.

[LoudmouthLee]

It's much more often the vote that is scummy rather than the rationale. You don't lynch people with rationale. You lynch people with votes. By neglecting to look at voting patterns, you miss out on significant scum tells.

I still feel strongly that one or both of UT and STD is scum. Look at the patterns.

Edit while posting: consistency is a scum tell? I've never been scum ever, then.

[LoudmouthLee]

-> a.) He labels every first vote in the game as a "random" vote (even though not all first votes are random; indeed, mine was not random in the slightest).
-> b.) He then focuses on those who have changed their votes several times. I tend to think Townspeople are actually more likely to change their votes and their minds as evidence presents itself, especially if they are largely voting for pressure and reactions.
-> c.) His take on the Natirasha wagon is simply incorrect. The Natirasha push was a policy push for action; action which has now occurred.
-> d.) He makes no mention of the players who have not moved their vote at all (Porochoz, MrBuddyLee, Shanba, and myself) even though that would be an easier route for scum to take.

Call me wonderfully old school, and an asshole. I'm fine with either.
a) If you want to argue semantics, that's ABSOLUTELY fine. It's my freaking excel. I could have easily called it "initial vote" and you'd have nothing to argue here. You're grasping at straws, PJ, and I generally expect better from you.
b) To an EXTENT, you're absolutely correct. The rest of the sheep will push for the non-posters to post. However, the people who change their votes as frequently as some of the players do are looking to CONFUSE the town by creating suspicious reads in EVERY person they can. This HELPS SCUM. -Even if the person they're wagoning is scum and does not get lynched right away, they can easily go back to D1 and say "Well, I was on that wagon." It creates plausible deniability...
c) Here's a really great question for you, PJ (and Yos, and EVERYONE ELSE ON THE POLICY KICK), why Nat, and not any of the other players that hadn't moved their votes? Because Nat was being adversarial. Was stirring the pot. Was angering people. You say policy. I say VI. I think, somewhere in the middle, we're both right.
d) Why not let everyone else do that? You guys can go after the lurker tells (I don't believe in them) and I look to actively scum hunt.

And by neglecting to look at the reasoning you miss out too but this is a pretty circular argument. What's your opinion on CTD/CES/Green Caryons?

CTD is a perfect example on why I'm questioning the Nat votes as a VI push. There has been absolutely no push on CTD at all, but he has been pretty much non-active. CES as well. I have no opinions on either of them, but the game of mafia is not won in a day. I'm sure more information will surface. GC has been attacking me for a little while, and we seem to be spinning wheels. When people tend to be steadfast and rehashing the same argument over and over again with me, I tend to get a town read rather than a scum read.

[LoudmouthLee]

@GC - You have nothing to add from any of the content of the last few pages?

[LoudmouthLee]

This is far from a great question. Natirasha was being deliberately and abrasively unhelpful. He refused to read the game upon replacing in, and then rather than contributing posted merely that he was "lurking." In short, he was not playing the game, nor was he even making an appearance of playing the game. Players like that do not belong in games. Had I been on-line I would have gladly voted for him to force him into either contributing or replacing out. Feel free to add me as temporarily changing my vote to Natirasha in your Vote Count Analysis if it would help.

As you wish.

Unvote. Vote: PJ

I responded to your 4 points. You a single point and completely misrepresented it. Let's take a step back and work our way through a few new points.

[*]Point #1: Natirasha

I am going to underline this, because you all (and yes, YOU ALL) should be considerably better than this.

Voting is for lynching, not getting people to contribute.

When people place votes on somebody to push pressure on them, the mentality changes. People no longer are looking for analysis. They're looking for defense. You've ALL been in this situation before. Think about it. When you're bandwagoning someone, they want defense of your actions. Then, they want to know why you aren't posting analysis. That all of your posts seem "defensive". It's circular. And it's a dangerous game that scum have been perpetuating for as long as I remember playing.

The defense of the Natirasha wagon has nothing to do with the fact that it had opportunity, and people JUMPED on it. Everyone who had read the thread knew what was going on. The votes were cast to generate suspicion on someone who had enough negative feelings from the town to move a wagon. I cannot be the ONLY person who sees this.

[*]Point #2: Scumhunting

PJ, I don't know if you realize this, but we are in Day 1, with merely 15 pages of posts in. With a game of this many players, it takes some time for anyone (and everyone) to get a firm footing. With that being said, you said this:

He is pushing names into an Excel document and focusing on the outliers in one direction (lots of vote changing) but not the other direction (lack of vote changing).

If you would have read my posts closely (which I assume you haven't, because this is sloppy mistake #2 from you), you would have read this:

d) Why not let everyone else do that? You guys can go after the lurker tells (I don't believe in them) and I look to actively scum hunt.

That was the reasoning as to why I don't like lurker tells. They're low hanging fruit. You cannot make assumptions based on lack of content. Using your votes to act as a mod-prod has ALWAYS been a pet peeve of mine, and it's detrimental to the town. I can only begin to scumhunt when there's actual content. That's why I haven't made a decision on players like CTD or CES yet. There hasn't been enough. D1, there hardly is, which is why I rely on vote counts for a lot of my D1 hunches. However, sometimes....

[*]Point #3: The case against PJ.

• Point 1: The FoS of Glork / Case against Glork

• Point 2: "Biting Tongue" and Wide Berth

• Point 3: Pushing of the "Weak Players" argument - Tide against

• Point 4: Bluster of Albert Rampage

Let's take these one at a time:

Point 1: PJ takes his time to begin to work out a framework of a case against Glork (244,417,449) by using Glork's rationale against MafiaSSK against him. When Glork had made a request of PJ to talk about others, PJ balked, saying that he has no town reads. Only scum reads. This, coupled with his most recent FoS of Glork for MY actions seems strange. You seem to be blustering a whole lot at Glork for talking about his reads in particular. I'm still trying to craft in my head why you would do this as a town player, and I cannot. As scum, however, I see you blustering for a number of reasons... but it looks like you've tried (unsuccessfully) to generate some traction on Glork.

Point 2: Your thought process behind giving me space and allowing me a wide berth because I'm an asshole (my word) is completely preposterous. You had never mentioned any previous suspicion of me, or let alone asked me a single question. With the fear of answering for others, the reason your vote seems opportunistic is because, well, it is. Show me where you had even HINTED at suspicion of me previously.

Point 3: The pointed questions asking VR to determine who the weak players are DOES absolutely nothing whatsoever to help the town. Instead, the ONLY purpose of something like that is to create a fissure that could only grow to massive proportions. Kudos to VitR for not taking that bait, but seriously, that's a conundrum. What is your rationale behind this? Your usage of weasel words "weak players" is cause for concern.

Point 4: Your bluster at ABR was very odd. That was especially odd because he was VOTING ME AT THE TIME, and how you've "had nagging suspicions of me" does not compute. You wouldn't bluster at him for voting me if you actually had those nagging suspicions. I think you're lying. Or posturing. You're not being forthcoming regardless.

Kill PJ.

[LoudmouthLee]

Yos is only happy when it rains.

[LoudmouthLee]

I has fixed the work internet! I will catch up on this game and try to post tonight. Thank you for being patient!

[LoudmouthLee]

1.)

MafiaSSK, why do you believe the scum in this game do not have daytalk?

3.)

LoudmouthLee, what do you think of MafiaSSK?

4.)

LoudmouthLee, is there scum on my wagon?

5.)

LoudmouthLee, for the record, I actually spent a fair deal of time just now skimming over some of your latest games (admittedly several years old). I have indeed noted a fairly consistent pattern of you deciding that "X scum are on Y wagon" without really bothering to look at what other players are doing with their votes. While I don't agree with the concept, I will no longer consider it a point against you.

So now the question focuses on whether you are actually doing this:

It is of my opinion that content matters much less than analyzing voting patterns.

When the voting patterns lead you to choices, that's when you compare content.

I have not seen you put your own Vote Count Analysis into context (or "comparing the content"). I realize you are not currently voting for Untrod Tripod, but could you explain whether (and if so, how) you actually compared Untrod Tripod's (or Save the Dragons') voting patterns to their content?

6.)

LoudmouthLee, why do you believe that Save the Dragons' meta does not involve hopping on bandwagons? Save the Dragons essentially actually asked you this same question in Post 285.

7.)

LoudmouthLee, unfortunately I did not happen to notice any situations where you have similarly argued against a Town voting to get a player to

act

instead of voting to get a player

lynched

(e.g., the Natirasha situation). Can you link me to a game where that has happened before? If you don't believe (or can't remember) if it has come up in a game before, please say so.

Let's begin:

1) Not my question, but I find this very interesting. Perhaps I am VERY old school, but I don't remember EVER playing in a game with a day-talking Mafia. Ever. This may be my memory failing me, but I seriously cannot remember a time. Since this is Oldy Mafia, and I assume that Day Talking mafia is a new construct, what makes anyone think that it would be in this game? It's an odd speculation on everyone's behalf, and when people have too much information, there's generally a good reason (cough, scum)

3) One of the few players who, on the opening list, I never remembered playing with. I never got a very strong read, but felt null to scum based on posts. The replace-out (agreement with DGB) seems like a pro-town replace out than a scum replace out. There really wasn't any more pressure on MafiaSSK. I'm not planning on voting that slot today.

4) Maybe? Possibly? I see people distancing themselves from you quite interestingly, and I have my gut if/when you flip red.

5 and 7) ...or lack thereof? UTs vote on me, at the time, was where I wanted to place my vote for reasons outlined... All of his posts seemed to be bandwagon happy without any push to scumhunt whatsoever. As for 7, I didn't normally "broadcast" what my intentions were (by picking scum off of wagons), but God. Locus Cosecant was a very good player for that reason. He'd vote Internet Stranger without any though process, and you would quickly see the votes pile in on LC. It never failed. It was seemingly orchestrated by the scum each time, and he just dug himself deeper and deeper each time. I can't remember a game, per se. I can tell you, that I've been picking scum from VI wagons since my GL days.

6) StD's pro-town meta showed a stubbornness as town that did not seem to be shown here. I don't have links right now, and unless I get bored and have time, you probably won't get them from me now.

and 8) I'm behind on BooKitty. I'll try to read more today and give a definitive viewpoint on her later.

[LoudmouthLee]

mathcam, I think LML fits your voting criteria.

(1) Scummy.
(2) Has had a lot of interactions with players. Thus, his flip will be pretty informative.
(3) Will probably claim VT.

Are you trying to get a reaction out of me here? Trying to fish for my role? This is the scummiest post of the match thus far.

FoS: GC

The only reason my vote isn't changing is because I'm nearly positive that PJ will flip red. I'm not nearly as sure about you yet.

Considering how many people have expressed suspicion of him, and how strong the case against him is, it's been remarkably difficult to keep any momentum going on the LML wagon.

I think LML's odds of being scum are over 50%.

Yos, you and I have played many a game together in the past. Here's what's going on. You and GC are the only two still with votes on me. Could it possibly be that you're just confusing playstyle with scumminess? I want you to reread my posts again and see if I had explained my reasoning for each point I had made. If not, I'd be more than happy to help. I use voting records to narrow down a subject, but I really want to talk about THIS... and I feel like we're actually getting somewhere concrete rather than speculative.

1.)

Perhaps I am VERY old school, but I don't remember EVER playing in a game with a day-talking Mafia. Ever. This may be my memory failing me, but I seriously cannot remember a time. Since this is Oldy Mafia, and I assume that Day Talking mafia is a new construct, what makes anyone think that it would be in this game? It's an odd speculation on everyone's behalf, and when people have too much information, there's generally a good reason (cough, scum)

...FOS whoever it was that asked [MafiaSSK] why he thought there was no daytalk...

Hi!

Daytalk has become increasingly common, and there is in fact an explicitly Normal role called an Encryptor which allows Daytalk while limiting it to the span of the role's life.

Browsing MafiaSSK most recently completed games, Mini #1543 had unlimited Mafia Daytalk (completed April 10, 2014) and Mafia in the Land of Fantasy had a Mafia Encryptor (completed April 7, 2014). He also recently finished modding a game with unlimited Mafia Daytalk (completed April 8, 2014), and a Micro Game with a Mafia Encryptor (completed January 7, 2014).

Given MafiaSSK's very recent experiences with Mafia Daytalk (to the point of often using it in his own games), his unnecessary assumption that the Mafia in

this

game does not have Daytalk stuck out to me.

~

Concerning whether Patrick would implement Mafia Daytalk, scanning his "recent" games he did allow Daytalk in Invitational #11: Pick Your Poison 5 (run in 2010) and a Mafia Encryptor in Speed Mafia (run in 2011).

This type of speculation seems VERY odd to me. I need to admit, I have NEVER heard of this role before, and would have NEVER assumed it to be part of the game. Considering this to be a game of Oldy Mafia, I find it somewhat telling that people would assume a role that was not prevalent "in the good old days" would be here. WIFOMing the setup and the mod seems so odd in this case, and moreso, because this seems like a special role.

@Rest of you -> Have you heard of this encryptor before?

[LoudmouthLee]

Hey. Not my meta, but I find it especially odd that no one at all has called out CTD for being active all over the site, but largely ignoring this game. Some of y'all hated my VCA for calling out the vote switchers, saying that I'm ignoring the people under the radar.

Nope. Some of YOU are the ones talking out of both sides of the mouth.

FoS: CtD, and anyone else on a lurker hunt who didn't call him out.

[LoudmouthLee]

1.)

LoudmouthLee, you've twice made a reference to the Daytalk speculation (Post 601 and Post 653), both times essentially saying you find such speculation suspicious. But you have not clarified who you are suspicious of -- reading your posts it almost seems like you are suspicious of

me

for following up with MafiaSSK. Could you clarify?

Are you still suspicious of the MafiaSSK slot (now mathcam)? You seem to be avoiding saying as much.

2.)

I am not surprised that a MafiaSSK/LoudmouthLee pairing had occurred to me earlier, as now I am also seeing a mathcam/LoudmouthLee pairing.

LoudmouthLee jumped on others saying that MafiaSSK's replace out "looked Town" as a reason for not voting for the slot today, but the more I look at it the more of an excuse it is looking like to not vote for mathcam.

3.)

I am not a fan of Bookitty's "martyr" post; if she believed it she would have voted for herself (which would also be annoying). "Martyr" posts, if done by Town or Scum, almost necessarily must come from players who are going to claim Vanilla Townie, so I do not consider that a point in her favor. Just because some players (e.g., Glork) would apparently try to draw out power roles does not mean every other player would do the same.

4.)

Not particularly interested in the Cogito Ergo Sum wagon; it largely looks like a bad "Cogito Ergo Sum v Bookitty" dichotomy.

That said, Glork, what were the "~reasons~" you mentioned about him earlier.

~

I am still willing to vote Bookitty.

Unvote: Bookitty

Vote: LoudmouthLee

This day needs to get a move-on. Deadline is Wednesday and there are not reduced-majority rules for lynching. We

must

get twelve votes to achieve a lynch. Rather than failing to get something together or lynching last-minute, let's get it done. Players with votes that are unlikely to lead to a lynch need to compromise and move elsewhere or else actually argue and pursue their top choice instead of idly sitting on their votes.

I'm still suspicious of the daytalk. I just don't know why ANYONE would assume it's in the game. Rule #1 of Mafia, Lynch all Liars. Rule #2, when someone has too much information, there's generally a good reason.

I need to go back and see who brought up the idea of the Mafia Encryptor first.

With that being said, good job having your prints on two different major wagons at the same time, PJ. That's what caused me to get "heat" to begin with, being both concerned about MafiaSSK and Tigris.

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm going to take a few moments and try to handle this differently. Trying a new approach. I have always (unfortunately) have taken major umbrage to votes on me. For those of you who have played with me before, you know how I get. It's the narcissism of life. Instead of being arrogant (I'm sorry), I'm going to handle this a different way.

Here's who I currently think is town: Chamber, DGB, Shanba, Glork.
Here's who I am leaning town on: MBL, Undo, ABR. inHim (or any incarnations)
Here's who I have null on: Porochaz, CTD, CES, VitR, GC, Yos2, BooKitty (I feel like that wagon is incredibly manufactured... similar to mine), Kublai Khan
Here's who I am leaning scum on: UT, Mathcam, STD, Sotty
Here's who I have strong scum feelings for: PJ

I have a few questions for Sotty:

1) You have said that you're actively following this game. Some people have attacked that (Glork, Poro, Boo) very recently. Do you feel like you've been actively scumhunting this game?
2) Looking back at your posts, you feel that CtD's response to my post 302 was not sufficient enough to explain my rationale. Why is that?
3) Do you find Meta to be a very important part of your scumhunting?

[LoudmouthLee]

So I think if people have been reading my PBPA my scum suspects are pretty obvious. SSK and mathcam seem to be getting a free pass for lurking at the right time. I am not okay with that. Im also not okay with some of mathcams thoughts later on. Undo has been particularly bad but I look forward into getting myself stuck into that one tomorrow. At this point, because he just beat undo in the scumminess title race, and its supremely obvious that we have stalled over the last 10 pages. Certainly it has felt more strained the last 10 pages. Things about LML's play dont really add up. The excel spreadsheet, the VI wagons, the Encryptor...

vote LML

Humor me... because I like to laugh.

How is my VCA, My VI wagon and the encryptor talk scummy, especially with the fact that I didn't bring up the encryptor to begin with.

Since when is scumhunting scummy?

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm writing stuff. Calm down Glork.

Still haven't seen it.

vote: KK

Will try to get back here for tomorrow, but please be aware that all posts will be done through iPhone. It should be very interesting.

[LoudmouthLee]

If this is my last post ever in forum mafia, I may as well go out with a bang, eh?

I'm not going to claim.

I feel like this bus on me has been completely ridiculous. Completely fabricated. You all dislike my scumhunting, that's fine.. At least I'm trying. You want to call me indignant? Want to call me anti-town? Do so. You will, unfortunately, see on my flip that I'll turn blue.

With all of that being said, I'm gone for the day. Don't think by begging me to come back to claim that I'm going to. Not a chance in hell. You feel that strongly about my lynch? Lynch me. You don't need my claim. Just keep in mind the following things:

a) If you think that votes on D1 don't mean anything, you're wrong. Bluster is bluster. Analysis is analysis... but what really matters are votes. I have personally caught SO MUCH SCUM by looking at this. You don't agree with my methods? Fine! Last time I checked, I was able to play this game how I see fit.

b) I still have never heard of a Mafia Encryptor. and the fact that someone brought it up as an assuption (cough - MafiaSSK) should give EVERYONE pause. Have you all forgotten how to play mafia since you left?

c) You didn't like me "straddling" the fence between Tigris and MafiaSSK. I had a random on Tigris, and the case on MafiaSSK was not strong enough to make me change my vote. Holy shit. If I would have just screamed out "Tigris is Scum. Lynch Tigris." all day, none of this shit would be happening.

With that being said, I'm V/LA until Monday. Patrick knew about this in advance (feel free to ask him for corroboration). If you choose to lynch me, Godspeed. If not, I hope to see you tomorrow.

[LoudmouthLee]

Post from phone.

Still not going to claim. Still think you guys are manufacturing shit. In a post of passion, I typed the word bus instead of wagon. Both methods of transportation. Both used quite frequently.

Regardless, as I will probably be lynched tonight, I will leave you with the following:

The mouse ran up the clock.
The clock struck one. The mouse ran down.

[LoudmouthLee]

Bah! Why couldn't I draw town?

[LoudmouthLee]

I read this entire game, and now I can explain why I chose to do what I did D1.

LmL's stupid moves:

1) I didn't alter my play enough to begin with (Hi, StD!) and playing with people who have 5-10 games with me? Quite a mistake. I knew that I was signing StD's death warrant midway through the day.
2) I couldn't make a strong enough case on anyone who WASN'T SCUM day 1. You guys were so freaking dead on D1, I thought the game would be over, and fast. I kept on manufacturing bullshit, and, rightfully, called out on it.

Midway through the day we were forced with a choice.. lynch me, or lynch bookitty. Since I knew people would catch StD because of my tunneling, we were going to push Boo's lynch... but the more I opened my trap, the more Boo became very... well... forgotten about? Towards the end, my goal was not to sir any pot. Or anything. My goal was simply to make you forget about why ANY of you suspected Boo to begin with. D1, you guys successfully pegged 3 scum.

Way to go scum. Thanks for honoring my dying wish to kill Shanba. I smelled power role all over.

[LoudmouthLee]

From the scum QT:

Surviving would be pulling a fancy. My goal is to get everyone to forget about boo kitty.

[LoudmouthLee]

See? That's crazy. You were lurky, insightful and actively listening. If you weren't scum, you were a power role, and I knew you werent scum.

[LoudmouthLee]

FYI: I would love to play a mini with a select group of you.

[LoudmouthLee]

(At least) one of this set { petroleumjelly,

Seol

,

Porochaz

, Green Crayons }
is highly likely to be opportunistic mafia. You can toss

LoudMouthLee

in there for the FOS.

I didn't do so bad myself D1.

Where's your framed post by Yosarian?

[LoudmouthLee]

Mathcam, he was 3/5. Scum isn't a player.

Vote: Mathcam

. His name contains the word math and he's bad at it. Lynch all liars.