NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Shanba]

Generally, I look at D1 voting two different ways, I look for opportunistic scum who takes advantage of the early wagons (So far, the early wagons include Tigris, MafiaSSK, Seol, Myself and, most recently, Zorblag (Far/Nat)).

What sort of advantage do you think scum get off the early wagons? Both in general, and in particular in this game?

From my experience, any time a mafia member can take heat and push it on someone else, they will do so. Sometimes, people throw shit against the wall just to see what sticks. Do you believe, Shanba, for any reason, any player should have been on three major wagons already? It's either sheeping or hiding, and either way, it's not pro-town.

What about FoSsing on a major wagon. Does that not also cover these points?

[LoudmouthLee]

This is far from a great question. Natirasha was being deliberately and abrasively unhelpful. He refused to read the game upon replacing in, and then rather than contributing posted merely that he was "lurking." In short, he was not playing the game, nor was he even making an appearance of playing the game. Players like that do not belong in games. Had I been on-line I would have gladly voted for him to force him into either contributing or replacing out. Feel free to add me as temporarily changing my vote to Natirasha in your Vote Count Analysis if it would help.

As you wish.

Unvote. Vote: PJ

I responded to your 4 points. You a single point and completely misrepresented it. Let's take a step back and work our way through a few new points.

[*]Point #1: Natirasha

I am going to underline this, because you all (and yes, YOU ALL) should be considerably better than this.

Voting is for lynching, not getting people to contribute.

When people place votes on somebody to push pressure on them, the mentality changes. People no longer are looking for analysis. They're looking for defense. You've ALL been in this situation before. Think about it. When you're bandwagoning someone, they want defense of your actions. Then, they want to know why you aren't posting analysis. That all of your posts seem "defensive". It's circular. And it's a dangerous game that scum have been perpetuating for as long as I remember playing.

The defense of the Natirasha wagon has nothing to do with the fact that it had opportunity, and people JUMPED on it. Everyone who had read the thread knew what was going on. The votes were cast to generate suspicion on someone who had enough negative feelings from the town to move a wagon. I cannot be the ONLY person who sees this.

[*]Point #2: Scumhunting

PJ, I don't know if you realize this, but we are in Day 1, with merely 15 pages of posts in. With a game of this many players, it takes some time for anyone (and everyone) to get a firm footing. With that being said, you said this:

He is pushing names into an Excel document and focusing on the outliers in one direction (lots of vote changing) but not the other direction (lack of vote changing).

If you would have read my posts closely (which I assume you haven't, because this is sloppy mistake #2 from you), you would have read this:

d) Why not let everyone else do that? You guys can go after the lurker tells (I don't believe in them) and I look to actively scum hunt.

That was the reasoning as to why I don't like lurker tells. They're low hanging fruit. You cannot make assumptions based on lack of content. Using your votes to act as a mod-prod has ALWAYS been a pet peeve of mine, and it's detrimental to the town. I can only begin to scumhunt when there's actual content. That's why I haven't made a decision on players like CTD or CES yet. There hasn't been enough. D1, there hardly is, which is why I rely on vote counts for a lot of my D1 hunches. However, sometimes....

[*]Point #3: The case against PJ.

• Point 1: The FoS of Glork / Case against Glork

• Point 2: "Biting Tongue" and Wide Berth

• Point 3: Pushing of the "Weak Players" argument - Tide against

• Point 4: Bluster of Albert Rampage

Let's take these one at a time:

Point 1: PJ takes his time to begin to work out a framework of a case against Glork (244,417,449) by using Glork's rationale against MafiaSSK against him. When Glork had made a request of PJ to talk about others, PJ balked, saying that he has no town reads. Only scum reads. This, coupled with his most recent FoS of Glork for MY actions seems strange. You seem to be blustering a whole lot at Glork for talking about his reads in particular. I'm still trying to craft in my head why you would do this as a town player, and I cannot. As scum, however, I see you blustering for a number of reasons... but it looks like you've tried (unsuccessfully) to generate some traction on Glork.

Point 2: Your thought process behind giving me space and allowing me a wide berth because I'm an asshole (my word) is completely preposterous. You had never mentioned any previous suspicion of me, or let alone asked me a single question. With the fear of answering for others, the reason your vote seems opportunistic is because, well, it is. Show me where you had even HINTED at suspicion of me previously.

Point 3: The pointed questions asking VR to determine who the weak players are DOES absolutely nothing whatsoever to help the town. Instead, the ONLY purpose of something like that is to create a fissure that could only grow to massive proportions. Kudos to VitR for not taking that bait, but seriously, that's a conundrum. What is your rationale behind this? Your usage of weasel words "weak players" is cause for concern.

Point 4: Your bluster at ABR was very odd. That was especially odd because he was VOTING ME AT THE TIME, and how you've "had nagging suspicions of me" does not compute. You wouldn't bluster at him for voting me if you actually had those nagging suspicions. I think you're lying. Or posturing. You're not being forthcoming regardless.

Kill PJ.

[Green Crayons]

@Porochaz:

There was a question I had for GC but for the life of me I have forgotten what it was.

Pipe up when you remember it.

-----

@LML:

[*]Point #1: Natirasha

I am going to underline this, because you all (and yes, YOU ALL) should be considerably better than this.

Voting is for lynching, not getting people to contribute.

When people place votes on somebody to push pressure on them, the mentality changes. People no longer are looking for analysis. They're looking for defense. You've ALL been in this situation before. Think about it. When you're bandwagoning someone, they want defense of your actions. Then, they want to know why you aren't posting analysis. That all of your posts seem "defensive". It's circular. And it's a dangerous game that scum have been perpetuating for as long as I remember playing.

The defense of the Natirasha wagon has nothing to do with the fact that it had opportunity, and people JUMPED on it. Everyone who had read the thread knew what was going on. The votes were cast to generate suspicion on someone who had enough negative feelings from the town to move a wagon. I cannot be the ONLY person who sees this.

This is just fundamentally wrong.

-----

- I find myself going back and forth about how I feel re: PJ depending upon the particular post I read. That's frustrating.

- Following up on my last post, I'm still happy with my UT town read.

- Following up on my last post, I'm not as confident in my Sotty town read, but she's still there for now. I think I'm feeling what DGB was implying in her Post 394, but I'm reserving my opinion until Sotty does her reread and reassesses her vote.

[Green Crayons]

@Glork:

I am genuinely curious to know why people think LML went through the VC analysis to try to frame/jump on someone who hadn't had any attention whatsoever. Yeah, he lacked context as PJ indicated, but I'm really really really not seeing the connect between what LML did and an actual scum motivation.

You don't see a reason why scum would make a fuss about being active and pressing a case against a player that is not likely to result in a lynch due to lack of overall interest?

I'm not saying LML's targetting of UT, based solely off of the fact that it was UT and UT "hadn't had any attention whatsoever," is alignment indicative. That is, LML's UT vote -- when divorced from LML's rationale of contextless voting patterns -- does not inherently suggest town or scum alignment. But such action is certainly not mutually exclusive of scum alignment, as there are reasons why scum would choose to pursue such a vote.

[Yosarian2]

First UT, then STD, now PJ.

LML's votes all seem really OMGUSy to me. The timing of the PJ vote seems especially dubious.

[LoudmouthLee]

Yos is only happy when it rains.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm fine with LML's recent posting.

[Patrick]

Bookitty replaces Seol.

[Patrick]

Votecount

LoudmouthLee (3) -- Green Crayons, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly
Kublai Khan (1) -- MrBuddyLee
MafiaSSK (3) -- Bookitty, CrashTextDummie, undo
Bookitty (4) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- MafiaSSK
petroleumjelly (4) -- Albert B. Rampage, Save the Dragons, VitaminR, LoudmouthLee
Zorblag (1) -- Untrod Tripod
Porochaz (2) -- DrippingGoofball, Zorblag
Yosarian2 (1) -- Glork

Not voting: Kublai Khan, Porochaz
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Bookitty]

Hi, everyone. It's a bit late for me, but I'll try to have something useful tomorrow.

Nice to see so many names I know!

[Zorblag]

It's been a busy week, but the good news is that my last tenure committee meeting of the academic year went well (all excellent evaluations and no issues of note.) I should have a bit more time to look at the game now. The beers are out and it's time to get back in the game!

@Cogito Ergo Sum: Have you played with DrippingGoofball or Albert B. Rampage much in the past (or had much exposure to their play in other ways?)

I mislynched DrippingGoofball as a mason in 2006, boyo.

Porochazvoters should be looking to switch to Seol, really.

@Cogito Ergo Sum, could you give a little more about why DrippingGoofball is high on your scum list if she still is then? Your list made more sense if you didn't have much experience with her. I'd be pretty surprised if she were scum at this point; I'd expect a much higher need to meddle with the game based on her play than I'm seeing now.

As far as the Seol vote goes, I didn't notice him the last time I looked through the thread because he hadn't done anything. That's due to lack of attention on my part. If it weren't for the replacement I'd agree that it's a more and more reasonable place to put a vote, but right now I'm tentatively chalking it up to an unimpressive start due to lack of interest in the game.

@Zorblag:

@Green Crayons:

Would you say that you're following the game on the whole fairly closely? Who is the scummiest of the players that you haven't particularly talked about so far?

(1) Yes.
(2) This is a loaded question that would be asked by scum.

@Green Crayons, it's really more an attempt to get some evidence that you're paying attention to the game, but I guess thanks for calling an attempt to get a feel for your game scummy?

Your answer on it's own was particularly uninspiring, but the rest of that post and the posts that you've made since then actually do make me think that you are paying attention to the game and trying to determine alignments. The fact that you're now laying out some town reads and not quibbling about language in the posts that you make, but really examining what the motivation for the overall tactics used (for, say LoudmouthLee) does more to assuage my concerns than any direct answer to a question I might have asked would have. I'd still be happy to hear what you think of scummy play beyond what you've mentioned, but it's now more possible in my opinion that you actually care about figuring out alignments in this game.

@Porochaz, is there any reason that I shouldn't think that you're spewing some superficial reaction to the game now that you've got some votes on you? I know that you're busy and have other things on your mind, but you've got enough experience at mafia that there's no way you should have expected a post by post analysis to give you a concerted read on players which is what you should really be interested in if you're town and trying to find scum. Right now I'm seeing effort to show effort, but I'm not seeing town who cares about the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Glork]

Bookitty hi! Are you scum?

But such action is certainly not mutually exclusive of scum alignment, as there are reasons why scum would choose to pursue such a vote.

I'll bite. What are some of the reasons scum-LML would make that vote here?

[Glork]

EBWOP: I've literally been saying this whole time that I'm not a fan of the recent LML-hate because I don't see the scum motivation. You're telling me there are reasons (ie, motivation) for scum making that vote. I'm calling you out on those reasons.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@Cogito Ergo Sum, could you give a little more about why DrippingGoofball is high on your scum list if she still is then? Your list made more sense if you didn't have much experience with her. I'd be pretty surprised if she were scum at this point; I'd expect a much higher need to meddle with the game based on her play than I'm seeing now.

That's a fair point; I don't really think I've seen her not meddle with the game all that much before. At the time, I didn't really like the way she suggested chamber might be "TOO chipper".

@Porochaz, is there any reason that I shouldn't think that you're spewing some superficial reaction to the game now that you've got some votes on you? I know that you're busy and have other things on your mind, but you've got enough experience at mafia that there's no way you should have expected a post by post analysis to give you a concerted read on players which is what you should really be interested in if you're town and trying to find scum. Right now I'm seeing effort to show effort, but I'm not seeing town who cares about the game.

Prozac is town now, sorry.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

As far as the Seol vote goes, I didn't notice him the last time I looked through the thread because he hadn't done anything. That's due to lack of attention on my part. If it weren't for the replacement I'd agree that it's a more and more reasonable place to put a vote, but right now I'm tentatively chalking it up to an unimpressive start due to lack of interest in the game.

Why are you ignoring the obvious link to his alignment? If he's town, he gets to scumhunt people, he gets to interact freely with people that he used to know, all sorts of fun stuff. If he's scum, everything he does is under pressure and he has to fake doing something that he hasn't done in a long while.

Seol and I know each other, so he OMGUSes me in the first post but doesn't say anything? I push him relentlessly as scum and he doesn't say anything? He just continues making an easy case on mafiaSSK instead of engaging with the game. That's Seolscum, no doubt.

[chamber]

I didn't really like the way she suggested chamber might be "TOO chipper".

I'm not going to pretend to be able to read DGB for shit, cause I can't, but she always starts off thinking I'm town then finds reasons to suspect me. This is nothing new.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty hi! Are you scum?

Hey, Glork! And thank goodness, no.

I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.

@PetroleumJelly

: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PetroleumJelly

[Untrod Tripod]

In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum?

allow me to field this one: no.

unvote

pretty sure troll is town. So that's good.

LML I'm liking the non-game content of his posts, but I still think his actual in-game stuff has been fairly scummy. Doing a VCA and coming to the conclusion that a lot of D1 votes is a scumtell is pretty dadgum damning. That conclusion really doesn't follow, to me. But then he was voting me so grain of salt right?

[chamber]

Bookitty hi! Are you scum?

Hey, Glork! And thank goodness, no.

I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.

@PetroleumJelly

: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PetroleumJelly

You know my tagline isn't sarcastic right?

[Bookitty]

As far as the Seol vote goes, I didn't notice him the last time I looked through the thread because he hadn't done anything. That's due to lack of attention on my part. If it weren't for the replacement I'd agree that it's a more and more reasonable place to put a vote, but right now I'm tentatively chalking it up to an unimpressive start due to lack of interest in the game.

Why are you ignoring the obvious link to his alignment? If he's town, he gets to scumhunt people, he gets to interact freely with people that he used to know, all sorts of fun stuff. If he's scum, everything he does is under pressure and he has to fake doing something that he hasn't done in a long while.

Seol and I know each other, so he OMGUSes me in the first post but doesn't say anything? I push him relentlessly as scum and he doesn't say anything? He just continues making an easy case on mafiaSSK instead of engaging with the game. That's Seolscum, no doubt.

I checked the activity level on Seol. He made a grand total of four posts during his tenure in the game. I have no idea why he replaced out, but if I had to guess based on his posts, I would guess that he found the pace of the game too fast and overwhelming.

@UntrodTripod:

I think I said it before, but to me VCAs are only useful after you've seen a few flips. I don't agree with LML's way of using them, but I do think that they can be really useful to town later on.

I'll give LML a closer look, but I don't think he's scummy for the VCA.

@chamber:

I don't know what it refers to, but if you want to explain, I'd love to hear it. It's not a theory I've heard before

[Untrod Tripod]

reading is tech, boo

[Bookitty]

reading is tech, boo

I don't catch your meaning.

I've been reading the game since the beginning, but I didn't actually think I would get the chance to replace in. So I didn't make detailed notes. Certainly I didn't do ISOs and multiple player drill-downs for a game I wasn't even in :p

What is it you think I've missed?

[chamber]

I didn't realize boo replaced seol. This is excellent, I don't feel guilty at all over still voting the slot.

[Bookitty]

I can definitely feel the love. :p

[Untrod Tripod]

I was saying that the actual conclusion that he came to is scummy. It would have been scummy outside of the context of "because VCA".