BooneyToonz XIII: To Boon or Not To Boon - [END]

[davesaz]

I didn't really think about it earlier tbf. With so many cops why didn't the backup wait for more flips and just take the first fucking role?

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Smells like bullshit.

Umm, universal backups get the first flipped role by design. They don't get to choose which role.

[davesaz]

Which of course has already been explained... cool.

[davesaz]

You should take responsibility for your vote not try to sell it.

[davesaz]

Eddie Guerrero's last theme song "Viva la Raza" had "I lie, I cheat, I steal" as the chorus. I literally told you five times in the span of 900 posts that my Miller claim was bullshit.

And I fucking detest that I had to claim to derail this nonsense.

Gifs literally mean nothing to me, jsyk. As in, I’m incapable of interpreting them.

[davesaz]

Town don’t fakeclaim Miller. That’s pl worthy.
Rolestopper is a role I have only seen scum have.

[davesaz]

Town don’t fakeclaim Miller. That’s pl worthy.
Rolestopper is a role I have only seen scum have.

I mean this is factually accurate but I still Tr chk from play.

It's consistent and the set of scenarios where it would make sense as scum is vanishingly small.

[davesaz]

I interpreted Bambi Jay's reaction to Clemency as panic. Not wanting to make an independent scumread is Bambi being cautious. Lamenting all the wagons being on town yet not wanting to push something new fits that too.

VOTE: Bambi Jay

[davesaz]

A few setup related things.

I'm used to UB being able to inherit roles from any alignment. I saw some discussion about it being same alignment and I think I have seen it be that way on at least one occasion, but I think any alignment is more prevalent.

With enabler(s?) present, it feels like scum may have a rolecop in order to be able to find them.

If AF really is a doc enabler and there was/is a vig present then scum could (also?) have a doc. A mafia doc would be immune to gunsmith which reinforces the idea that there could be one. As an aside I TR Haggle and checked them for two purposes, one of which was to settle the disparity between my read and the consensus. If I was wrong then I'd rather know that and get a guilty in the process. In Haggle's favor they came right out and said a mafia doc would check inno. Maybe Joan is just true claiming doc but scum. I still don't want to lynch either AF or Joan on the off chance we get a save or two.

Rolestopper is a role which can be used to prevent result-borking shenanigans, but it also induces those kind of weird results. It's existence implies that the theme within a theme is chaos.

[davesaz]

Did we ever hear what Chemist (L&L) did?

[davesaz]

And after Dave said I wasnt contributing I thought it was just him not reading, but I realize everyone interprets only readlists jumbled up together as doing stuff while my theorycrafting is ignored at most.

That's a nice post, but I don't see any scumreads or votes. Which is what has been missing.

[davesaz]

I can't tell if Creature's list is a joke or if he's really that far out of touch.

[davesaz]

And after Dave said I wasnt contributing I thought it was just him not reading, but I realize everyone interprets only readlists jumbled up together as doing stuff while my theorycrafting is ignored at most.

That's a nice post, but I don't see any scumreads or votes. Which is what has been missing.

I've been vote switching like crazy and I thought my scumreads so far have been obvious? Do I need to bold it for everyone?

You were complaining about there being two wagons on town. Your vote is still on one of them.
No, your scumreads are not obvious and the reasons for those scumreads are much less obvious.
Bold is probably not necessary. Let's see a vote that you actually have a reason for.

[davesaz]

I suppose paying attention or trying to fix it up is a little too much work.

[davesaz]

Fix it up yourself that is.

[davesaz]

In no particular order... in a vacuum which of these roles would be most suspect knowing nothing else about the game?
Not talking about the associated players at the moment or what other roles (may) exist. Just the list of roles given here.

Rolecop
Universal Backup
Doctor
Doctor Enabler
Rolestopper

[davesaz]

Oh, shit! So he did claim eventually! I was surprised (to the limit of being shocked, actually) the more comprehensive players didn't picj up on what he was hinting all along. I mean, he was confident enough you just had to think about it before you asked him WHY he was so confident.

TBH I still don't fully believe it. It's out of character for Boon to use a base role instead of one of his special ones. And I don't really buy going to bat for FlippyNips of all people.

[davesaz]

Fix it up yourself that is.

Dude I don't know what are all the claims

It's way easier for someone like you to correct me on the claims I have missed than me having to go back through a hundred pages to find all the claims

That response is slightly better than what I expected to see.
I don't actually remember them all either.
Someone did reply with a few corrections...

[davesaz]

RCE has more than 200 posts and I don't remember any of them?
Yeah that needs a re-read.

[davesaz]

I honestly expected to see something like 40 posts in activity overview.

[davesaz]

Oh, shit! So he did claim eventually! I was surprised (to the limit of being shocked, actually) the more comprehensive players didn't picj up on what he was hinting all along. I mean, he was confident enough you just had to think about it before you asked him WHY he was so confident.

TBH I still don't fully believe it. It's out of character for Boon to use a base role instead of one of his special ones. And I don't really buy going to bat for FlippyNips of all people.

Well what's your read on chk/A50 independently?

Weak / strong town respectively.

Also how do you reconcile chk being a scum!rolestopper targeting A50 to pseudo clear him knowing he himself wasn't a miller.

Targeting 50JP would not clear him in any case.
The hypothetical reason for a scum rolestopper to target 50JP would be causing chaos and keeping 50JP from being cleared by other people, which would be expected as IIRC 50JP was the only hard claimed role that could be targeted.
This is identical to the "unknown enhantress" theory except that enchantress would also soft clear 50JP's presumed target (Nips).

It's likely to be wrong in either case, but I'd like it to be resolved at some point.

[davesaz]

LandL claimed the same role as A50 minus the desperate modifier.

So for one why A50 and not LandL if chk wasn't intending to push there?

I don't recall L&L having left anything behind on a target, where it was pretty easy to find a clue on 50's target. Got nothing beyond that. It's an interpretation of what people said happened and speculation on why.

As for why chk chose 50 and not L&L that's more a question for chk.

[davesaz]

Chk do you know the difference between a real read and staking a claim to the "see I told you so" ground if that real read is wrong?

[davesaz]

Or you were blocked. Rolestopper blocks roles targeting you. Enchantress also blocks your action.

[davesaz]

You're a desperate visitor.
You targeted nips, used a shot, and didn't die.
Is that the complete information?

[davesaz]

It appears that chk had a roughly 5 year hiatus between 2013 and 2018, going strictly from the user topics view. It's entirely possible that things have evolved that much.

[davesaz]

The point is that 50 has drilled the specifics about his role to fucking death and people are still asking him to clarify shit with the mod. I'd be miffed too tbh.

50 shot is used when he visits scum. He dies when he visits scum. His shot was used and he didn’t die. This is a logical impossibility. It made sense when the shot was refunded. It would make sense if nips is the role you claimed but he didn’t, when the generally accepted only way to play the role is claim in first post. Don’t blame me when people act badly and it causes confusion.

[davesaz]

All unwinged ants are female.

[davesaz]

For it to be 3p it would need to investigate as guilty to a cop for the role to succeed. Even then, I'm not sure because weak can be "dies on mafia" or "dies on not your alignment".

[davesaz]

Are you suppose to?

I don't think someone who has seen miller claim first post in several games would ask this question.

[davesaz]

I thought you were gonna use Chk for that.

I can't target scum ever without Joan alive. Instead, I have to clear obvtown.

Boon replied that doc doesn't save a desperate. You have to do what hider would do usually which is crumb targets and hope scum doesn't kill you anyway to frame town.

[davesaz]

Hmm technically Boon replied to weak. I'd be quite surprised if the desperate reply would be anything different.

Amrun did you see the unofficial vc before that vote? The only way nips can be scum is if 50 is scum too, and I've hard TR 50 right from the beginning.
My discussions there that included possible scum!50 have always been about what could be happening, not about what I actually think is happening.
For me that's a massive difference. I put a big gap between mod confirmed and obvious, and another big gap between obvious and likely.

[davesaz]

Why does town constantly fakeclaim nowadays? It sucks.

+1
I require accurate information to play effectively.
I get that it's a game, games are supposed to be fun, and messing with scum can be protown.
But my opinion is that wild goose chases cause much more harm than any possible benefit from misleading scum.

[davesaz]

i made this list because i just know someone is going to do something like Watch RC and forget he's ascetic. don't be that person. i will repost (not quote) with any corrections.

RCE is aesthetic but RC is probably not even reading this game.

What is aesthetic?

Can’t you look up Mafia Wiki? No actions other than killing roles can work.

That's ascetic you mean

Right, sorry.

I just edit out the extra characters on the fly when reading them.

[davesaz]

Btw Grammarly is saying you're pretty angry

Who was this aimed at? And what posts?
That's that app that analyzes stuff and makes wording suggestions, right?

[davesaz]

I would prefer CHK on Titus. Really don't want her redirected or blocked or whatever.

Problem is Joan may not protect Chemist and we can count a lot more on chk to do that. If Titus dies on town, then we powerlynch Joan.

Why? Joan wouldn’t prevent Titus dying on town.

Titus's role fails on town, it succeeds and she dies on scum.

Joan docs Titus
Titus neighborizes someone
Titus dies

We don't know why Titus died until we know her target's alignment. If her target was scum then that's our answer. But if her target was town then she was killed which means Joan didn't actually doc her.

[davesaz]

I think someone ran a bunch of threads through an AI and the whole site was predominantly angry.

[davesaz]

Got any reads for us?

[davesaz]

Does it say I'm inquisitive?

[davesaz]

Tracker should be a priority protect then. It should be paired with hider/visitor if A50 gets another shot.

Tracker should try and hit scum not follow town wtf

I do not see how the 2nd post follows from the first one.
RCE didn't say anything about who the tracker should target.

[davesaz]

Strong words from someone whose excuse for hammering was birthday lulz.

[davesaz]

Atleast Chara took them down as well like a smart fella. Thank God for Babysitters.

This doesn't make sense. Did you misread something?

[davesaz]

Ah, um yeah. Forget I said that.

One faction but they only know one partner and don't have full communication? If that's the way to read it, then It's not multiball technically because it isn't two factions. But it isn't really singleball either. Trust Boon to have something new.

[davesaz]

I should mention that my 5726 is not a reply to Titus.

[davesaz]

Ah, um yeah. Forget I said that.

One faction but they only know one partner and don't have full communication? If that's the way to read it, then It's not multiball technically because it isn't two factions. But it isn't really singleball either. Trust Boon to have something new.

I think scum know the identity of the other pair. They'd have to to not NK them. Unclear if they have one pt or two, but "Evil Lair PT" makes me think its only one.

It does say two separate evil lairs to begin with, maybe attempting to kill one of the other pair is what unites them. He can't join the ones he knows.
If it really is a fully split team to start off, then more than just VCA can be messed up. We're really lucky that the traitor-like role flipped first.

AF probably thought they were scummy enough to possibly be the unknown scum.
I think this soft clears Joan.
Strongwill is a counter to protectives. That's gonna hurt the scum team.

The even/odd thing could mean that each half team has things that help or hinder the other half. This game is going to swing like mad.

[davesaz]

Two scum PT is implied by Aaron's flip. The PT he joined was not either one. PT cop can't get all scum by detecting one pair.

[davesaz]

Hot tinfoil -- 50 and chk are scum of different pairs.

[davesaz]

That's probably wrong but it would be funny as hell.

Pedit: The AF flip as much as says they don't know each other.

[davesaz]

Joan can't be scum. I'm calling this a hard clear. If she was scum then AF would have joined the scum pt, not the pt than Drew was in.

[davesaz]

Did I miss another modifier change while I was hitting submit over and over?

[davesaz]

Joan can't be scum. I'm calling this a hard clear. If she was scum then AF would have joined the scum pt, not the pt than Drew was in.

Not exactly. If Joan was his listed partner, then it works like A50 describes. It's just stupid unlikely.

Unlikely enough that I'm gonna vote anyone who ever suggests it again.

[davesaz]

Nah, maybe I shouldn't get angry here. Using the arbitrary color red (though that's not what AF flipped)

Red 1 <-> town
^
|
V
Red 2 <-> town

Red 3 <-> Red 4

Red 5

I guess that's possible, with an extra PT. He could have claimed doc enabler to try to keep Joan alive and get himself NK'd.

I still think the game design includes a town doc and we have only the one claimed though. It's a theory but it doesn't make sense.

Pedit: ok maybe I do want to do this
VOTE: 50 Judge Powers

[davesaz]

WE HAVE A BLOODY BABYSITTER FLIP. YOU DON'T PUT A DOCTOR AND A BABYSITTER IN THE SAME SETUP WITH THE SAME ALIGNMENT. WE ALSO HAVE A ROLESTOPPER WHO IS ALSO A TOWN PROTECTIVE. STOP THINKING WITH YOUR BUTTS AND TRY USING YOUR HEADS FOR ONCE (AND I MEAN THE ONE ABOVE YOUR SHOULDERS. THE OTHER ONE'S AP'S SPECIALTY). DO THE BLOODY MATH. YOU THINK SCUM COULD HAVE HAD 3 FUNCTIONALLY BP TOWNIES PER NIGHT?? THREE UNKILLABLE PLAYERS?? WHAT?? ARE YOU NUTS??

This is priceless if the half teams don't know each other. Because then half of the scum don't know that another modifier was given last night.

[davesaz]

Variations

Some Rolestoppers are unable to block kills.

[davesaz]

This is Bambi's role:

Follower/Vouyer

I recently finished a game with a scum Doctor Enabler and scum Vouyer and this is why I was not sure on Bambi's alignment. I have also been a town Vouyer before and as for the Follower role it says on wikipedia it can be any alignment.

those are two completely different roles aren’t they

AF was a "willbooster party crasher" so it's possible.

This does potentially fill the variant slots, though it's unclear if a straight mashup would really be a variant or just someone with two abilities.

[davesaz]

We do not have a reason for two modifiers to have been given out the same night identified yet. Is motivated an available modifier?

[davesaz]

Targeted Chara Night One and saw they didn't go anywhere

Cool so we're going to have you expressing a scumread on Chara D1 right?

[davesaz]

In a split scumteam game Bambi's role is potentially useful for finding the other half of the team.

Shall we talk about the visitation?

[davesaz]

A review of Chara shows that the NK was probably driven by her being someone who wasn't scumread by anyone, and probably wasn't due to her having found scum.
She probably targeted AF because he wasn't planned to be targeted by anyone else in a protective role.

[davesaz]

From a quick scan I can't tell who Chara scumread. That's why I don't think her being NK was due to finding scum. I could have missed something.

[davesaz]

Two scum PT is implied by Aaron's flip. The PT he joined was not either one. PT cop can't get all scum by detecting one pair.

I’m really confused by this.

I used a bit too much shorthand. Here's the full thing for the first one you quoted. The hot tinfoil one is a little more convoluted.

Two sets of two scum, each in an "evil lair" aka PT.
Aaron targets someone -- if in a PT he joins it.
Aaron joined a PT which had town in it.
Ergo he did not join a scum PT.
Joan must be town.

Corollary -- a PT cop existed. Outing a PT with scum in it does not out all the scum (to begin with) because they are not all in the same PT.

Corollary 2 -- there are multiple PTs with town, to dilute AF's role even further, but not too many or it becomes useless.

Regarding the hot tinfoil where chk and 50 could both be scum but different subteams -- chk targeted 50 but doesn't know his alignment. What chk has to claim must back up whatever 50 claims, because town!50 will suspect scum!chk if it doesn't, and scum!chk wants to back scum!50's claim. I don't think this is likely hence the tinfoil designation. But it does make an elegant kind of sense where each half scumteam has powers that can either enhance or screw up the other half, reinforcing the inherent swingy nature of the setup.

[davesaz]

We do not have a reason for two modifiers to have been given out the same night identified yet. Is motivated an available modifier?

I don't think motivator is necessary anymore if renegade is split like traitor was.

Split only applies to a compound role like AF's party crasher / willbooster.
The same role can't be split, it has to be motivated or the like. But if motivated can be a modifier it doesn't require that role to exist.

[davesaz]

Ah, so the visitation gets mentioned.
It can't be a visitor per se, unless there is a loud (but not public) modifier. Visited people (by a normal visitor) don't get notified.
Let's let this ferment a bit. If Adorable is being smart here, it's something we want the person responsible to respond to without prompts or hints.

[davesaz]

Scum would not know about Aaron and thus pushing him is certainly not a defense.

[davesaz]

I received a modifier. That means the renegade acted twice both nights, and it's definitely not a reflexive thing since I had my action stripped already.

[davesaz]

Titus, if you did successfully visit would there be a visible result somewhere? I thought you had said neighborizer?

[davesaz]

Nah, just had to give it a few more seconds thought for it to be obvious.
For desperate, a failed result is a

no visit

.
This matches Bambi's result.

[davesaz]

Nah, just had to give it a few more seconds thought for it to be obvious.
For desperate, a failed result is a

no visit

.
This matches Bambi's result.

... It doesn't. I got No Result, not No Visit.

They are very different for different reasons.

Oh, I misunderstood what you said the result was.

It still means V&M are town given Titus is alive. Unless there is something else that can prevent that.

[davesaz]

VnM is literally the only person who could've known Ejet was the role they were and surmising that isn't exactly a difficult thing to come to. Faking they were cleared by the death is a classic scum fake.

Can you please explain the mechanism by which you think VnM knew Ejet's role because it isn't at all clear to me.

I understood this right off.
It's a massive reach but it's in character for chk.

Despite having an unconfirmed clear on V&M and broad-based townreads, I do find the extreme sensitivity there to be a little scummy and awkward regardless of alignment. Doesn't change my TR.

[davesaz]

I thought scumreads on Drew were sketchy all along. I tried not to resort to calling them dumb. Generally speaking I'm trying not to think of scumreads on me that way either. Just a suggestion on how to view things.

[davesaz]

OK but what is this reasoning that is a massive reach?

Theory: V&M and EJet in a hood. EJet confides his role. Scum!V&M arranges a kill there.
It's a reach because
1) Don't think scum are in hoods with town based on AF flip
2) Scum are split into even/odd nights which reduces the chances of the theory by 50% right off the top
3) V&M obvtown by posting and soft cleared by Titus
4) Don't think EJet would confide such an important role (weak reasoning but still...)

[davesaz]

I thought scumreads on Drew were sketchy all along. I tried not to resort to calling them dumb. Generally speaking I'm trying not to think of scumreads on me that way either. Just a suggestion on how to view things.

Which ones in particular?

I'm suspicious of those who tried to force lynching in the hood as scum may not have known AF was their traitor. That would be three straight mislynches.

I think all of them? I didn't make any special note of when it started to bother me but I think I may have townread him from the start.

[davesaz]

OK but what is this reasoning that is a massive reach?

Theory: V&M and EJet in a hood. EJet confides his role. Scum!V&M arranges a kill there.
It's a reach because
1) Don't think scum are in hoods with town based on AF flip
2) Scum are split into even/odd nights which reduces the chances of the theory by 50% right off the top
3) V&M obvtown by posting and soft cleared by Titus
4) Don't think EJet would confide such an important role (weak reasoning but still...)

Yeah here's the problem: I couldn't find any reference in either ISO to them being in a hood, nor does chara's claims post mention it. So I'm sat here being like "When did they claim neighbors?"

Eh, I'm just explaining what chk seemed to be trying to say. Don't know tbh.
If this hood wasn't outed then V&M should know they didn't out it, no? If that's the beef, it hasn't been made very obvious.
Did you look under all the other IDs that Nancy has posted under?

[davesaz]

Though pretty much everyone has missed *something* now so maybe we should raise the bar for how egregious missing something has to be before we yell at or insult people? Please?

Big clapping hands emoji that this site doesn't have on the menu.

[davesaz]

I hope dead fish aren't bad in some way.
Shakespeare reference of some kind?

[davesaz]

That sounds like it has to be two roles, unless it's another split thing. One for the laundry and one for the fish.
I don't think it says anything about alignments yet.

Pedit: that smelly fruit thing is interesting.

[davesaz]

Have you paid royalties on that moonlogic?

[davesaz]

I don't think we're at a point yet where we have to massclaim.

[davesaz]

Haggle, Nips, and BEF haven't posted today. There is still time for things to come out spontaneously.

[davesaz]

Why are you saying anonymous fruit vendor, like anonymous is something special.
All FV are anonymous until they decide to tell who they targeted.

[davesaz]

With so many roles that do things, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the FV exist only to give a rolecop something normal to see once in a while.
Assuming it has to have a purpose is a good way to start down a wifom rabbit hole.

Maybe they do have meaning, I can't rule it out. But we're better off worrying about that when there is an indication it's more than just fun flavor.

[davesaz]

BTW fun historical fact that has nothing to do with this game.
I caught Titus as scum once because she started bringing up unusual theories for no reason at all.
You're obviously different people so I certainly don't scumread you here, but if this had been Titus I'd be digging up that old reference.

[davesaz]

I don't recharge.

Then how did you use your ability on N2? I am confused.

It hasn't ever been described as n-shot.

[davesaz]

Why the omgus A50? Also, if you're going to chastise me for not reading, I don't recharge.

What do you think of chkflip's push on V and M? What is your Amrun read?

@A50

Sorry. What is your question again?

Read the quote.

I did, and there are three question marks. So which question do you want answered?

All of them.

In what order?

Any special reason you're being overly difficult?

[davesaz]

How am I stalling? I am so confused.

They are really simple questions.
Your read on Amrun.
Why the OMGUS?
What do you think about chkflip push on V&M?
Simple questions, easy to answer.
So give answers!

[davesaz]

People like me (and probably Titus) expect to see the answer to a direct question in the form of quote->answer.
Not all over the place.
And if he has indeed answered them then he can point that out instead of pretending he doesn't know what was asked.

[davesaz]

Basically Almost, can you tell me what your thoughts on Chk's reasoning against Nancy along with what you think of Amrun now knowing they're a fruit vendor?

chkflp reasoning makes a lot of sense. I may not be ready to fully endorse it, but it makes sense none-the-less.

As for Amrun, I don't have a solid read on her. Sometimes I think she's Town and sometimes I don't. In other words, my read on her is going up and down like a sinus rhythm.

You guys have selective reading.

The post you quote comes after the post I quote.
I post reactions to things in the order I read them.

[davesaz]

Basically Almost, can you tell me what your thoughts on Chk's reasoning against Nancy along with what you think of Amrun now knowing they're a fruit vendor?

chkflp reasoning makes a lot of sense. I may not be ready to fully endorse it, but it makes sense none-the-less.

As for Amrun, I don't have a solid read on her. Sometimes I think she's Town and sometimes I don't. In other words, my read on her is going up and down like a sinus rhythm.

Are you referring to the "scum!V&M had EJet killed because EJet blurted out his role" reasoning?
Have you read all the other conversation about that? I can't remember if you are among those who participated actively in talking it through.

I agree on Amrun being all over the place. An idea came to mind recently, need to check if it matches the posting. The general principle here is that scum should look like multiball where they are scumhunting for the other team, but they don't want to lynch or kill the other team. This could mean they want their reads to be really fluid, more so than normal scum. I think they may have a mechanism to find the other half of their team, maybe with loyal/disloyal actions. What if the people who are affected by their actions are town, and if they find someone who isn't affected it means scum? But the other things in the game that can cause abilities to fail means they're not any more sure about their results than town are?

[davesaz]

Mathblade would make a comment about pants here.
If you think you know what's being hinted, pointing it out is not good.

[davesaz]

Mathblade would make a comment about pants here.
If you think you know what's being hinted, pointing it out is not good.

The rare time I think I can quick reply with nothing jumping in between. This was at Bambi.

[davesaz]

Well that's interesting. How do you think that interacts with town that have loyal/disloyal modifiers or the possibility town can have their role changed to include those modifiers?

Raises my general suspicion levels. If the theory is right, scum have good reason to have town-like roles, and play them as such.

Pedit: for some reason it didn't come up in pedit. At least this one did.

[davesaz]

What is the flavor significance?

Lorenzo Lamas is a real person. He's an actor (known for being Lance in Falcon Crest and a movie called Body Rock in the early 80's)

I see 50 having fun like this more often as town than scum. Not reliable but it's a data point.

[davesaz]

Both subteams won't use the same method but I'm willing to bet at least one of the vendors is scum. It's most likely one town and one scum. Start making cases for one or the other. Even if they're both scum we can only get one at a time.

Pedit: Oh, that is spicy indeed!

As for why you should read, and even more so comprehend, I laid it out in a 4 part logic that Titus added a 5th point to.
If Chk is indeed scum trying to find renegade then it's more important to understand how his "case" on V&M is rubbish.

[davesaz]

Hmmm.. but he can't be.. because he would have BLOCKED me, which would mean I should have been RECHARGED, and I wasn't!!

P.S. After we've lynched all 4 scums, I want to also Lynch Boon! Can we do that? Please?? Pretty PLEASE??

This is 50 realizing that chk can't have blocked him.

[davesaz]

Haggle can be scum if and only if they're a scum role that doesn't have a gun (dagger).
Scum doc is possible, and Haggle pointed it out themselves.

[davesaz]

Also, my reads aren't focused on a role I don't absolutely know exists.

If you're talking about Renegade, 4 people have said they got a modifier, 2 on each night. So yes it's absolutely confirmed it exists.

[davesaz]

If he doesn't use a knife... Hidden Poisoner? Poison in a Shakespeare play go hand in hand.

This is a semi-serious theory by the way. Does a Poisoner show up to a gunsmith-Knifesmith?

That role would not, but the-complicated-name-that-means-mafia-in-this-game would, except for doc. "mafia poisoner" would show up to a gunsmith, and furthermore we have no reason to suspect additional kills anyway.

Responding to another earlier post about mafia doc. In a split team the odd night team is susceptible to even night kills (and vice versa), which would make them susceptible to every night but night 1 when you add in the novice odd night vig. Mafia doc in team 1 is certainly plausible, but it doesn't help with a renegade search given it looks like the renegade is

motivated

-

2

targets each night.

[davesaz]

Joan's confirmed by Aaron's infiltration.

Also, stop saying I find disagreement scummy Nancy. I don't. Chkflip is obvtown and the only things we agree to are not related to this game.

I think you may be right about Joan but the bolded is 100% NAI and doesn’t confirm jack. Scum!AF infiltrated that hood to find his buddies, that’s why it’s 100% NAI.

Well, I don’t see why it’s scummy. I liked her jumping off of Bambi, so you could be right.

If the hoods are all town then it confirms Joan town. It's unproven but highly likely given the implications of AF role PM.

[davesaz]

My problem with it is that AF knew 2 people in the scum team. Would he shoot in the dark on N1 to someone who isn't his partner or would he try to link up?

He wasn't allowed to choose scum he knew.

[davesaz]

It may be that the only slots that davesaz would obtain guilties on are of flavored characters that use knives.

I was told specificallly by Boon that it's exactly the same as a Gunsmith -- gets a guilty on Mafia, roles that normally have guns for example other gunsmiths and alignment cops, gets an inno on mafia who are docs. Exactly what the wiki says.

[davesaz]

He doesn't want a mediator. He wants an excuse to not put forth his scumreads or claim. That's not town.

There is some truth to this, though I would say there are many reasons town might want to not claim.

[davesaz]

Knife ain't no damn small sword wtf rofl.

But it is.. at least to a 5 y.o. it is. Haven't you ever seen a little kid holding a knife as a sword and wearing a pan on his head for a helmet and pretending to be Russel Crowe as Gladiator?

You might be taking my having fun comment a little too seriously.
Please at least post occasionally on-topic.

[davesaz]

BEF visited Chara

Yep, he already claimed. He visited me N1.

What?

BEF sent me dirty laundry N1.

If creature is right, someone alive claimed the dirty laundry for N2 which doesn't add up.

[davesaz]

Did you read the spoilered part of my post to A50? I’m an emotional wreck because of him.

Postgame remind me to explain some boomer era terminology. Hopefully I'll still remember what it was I wanted to explain.

[davesaz]

Wow, I'm finally posting on the current page.

[davesaz]

I was mistaken about there being a 2nd laundry claim.

Modifier claims:
N1: Titus (desperate), BEF (Ascetic)
N2: Me (didn't say and outing it isn't helpful to town), can't remember (can't remember)

It would be much harder to find the 2nd modifier claim for N2, as it's not easily ctrl-f. If anyone knows please post.

Remember we have to assume renegade is motivated in order for there to be two modifiers given. This could mean that one modifier is fake.

[davesaz]

I received a modifier. That means the renegade acted twice both nights, and it's definitely not a reflexive thing since I had my action stripped already.

Yes

[davesaz]

Evidently the other person claimed before the post I quoted.

[davesaz]

@Titus: Too wolf to be a wolf.

My PM was received at the end of N2 but says it was effective starting at the beginning of N2.
Ugh, I can't ask Chemist for words from the PM, that isn't considered kosher. Maybe it's ok if the information is volunteered spontaneously? Care to elaborate?

[davesaz]

Oh maybe it was Amrun who asked that. In any case...

[davesaz]

Another Boon Tactic? Boon doing weird Flavor things to roles and only letting them know about their modifiers later?

PM in this case means the PM telling me that the modifier was added. Not role PM.

[davesaz]

Chemist was the other n2 target?

He said he got it n1.

I'm exploring a nuance between the timing of receiving the PM and when the PM was effective. Chemist could be assuming something means one thing when it actually means another. But I can't refer to the wording from the PM itself. It is fairly distinctive though.

[davesaz]

When did it take effect? Not when did it happen.

[davesaz]

When did it take effect? Not when did it happen.

For me?

Presumably at the end of night 1 but it doesn’t matter because my slot didn’t submit an action

The PM should specifically state when it took effect.

[davesaz]

Let's let Chemist answer.

[davesaz]

At least the renegade role is a known possible factor, vs. just getting the modifiers for no documented reason.

[davesaz]

Eh, we're not supposed to use details like wording of PMs so maybe not.
I consider it to be perhaps less authentic sounding than Titus's and mine.

[davesaz]

Hmm, does loyal prevent the action entirely or just the target's death? That's exploitable btw.

[davesaz]

We have claims of roles with added modifiers, they

should

just string together. Though it's undefined if conflicting modifiers like loyal+disloyal cancel out or just make the role completely unusable.

[davesaz]

I have to admit, when it's me doing the dying I think that way too.
From the outside it looks a lot different.
All of the below assume V&M town, since the scum case doesn't matter.

no bomb, lynch, scum NK V&M. 1 death day, 1 night, worst case 2t down, best 1tx1s
bomb replace lynch, scum NK. 2 deaths day, 1 night, worst case 3t down, best 2tx1s
no bomb, lynch, scum NK some other town. 1 day, 1 night, worst 2t, best 1t1s, get another chance tomorrow

The worst case mathematically is if you bomb town. Both lynching and getting NK, and lynching and not getting NK work out better for town, strictly by the math.
Yeah, it might mean you don't use the shiny ability. But technically it's correct, going strictly by game theory, to only bomb if you think you have scum who can't be lynched.

[davesaz]

Gamethrow is a bit dramatic, but you do you.
I'm in no hurry to vote.

I don't get the bulletproof talk. I saw a couple things that I interpreted to be tongue in cheek if not explicitly joking.

[davesaz]

I'd have to be able to find a theory to be able to answer that.

[davesaz]

Whatever this theory is, it is not obvious at all, at least not in the last 20-30 posts in chk's iso.

[davesaz]

The modifier is the easiest thing to lie about, because a rolecop would only detect the primary role. Exception being a claimed ascetic, if you can target it then it's fake.

[davesaz]

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of just dropping back to basic mafia.
Lynch the scummiest player. Use claims more as information and less as proof.
With 4 scum to find, 2 or more of the claims are either false or true but misleading.

[davesaz]

Oh great, I took a couple hours to read something else and something like 8 new pages. Marking the bottom of 309.

[davesaz]

I have reached the bottom of 315 and not seen much.
WTF is a "townbeard"?

[davesaz]

Can we get claims of actions for N3?
Hopefully Boon has remembered to send all the stuff. If there is stuff.
Did Fonz messages get revealed? I don't remember much if anything about that. I'm mystified about the super secret not gonna claim thing.

[davesaz]

Because we've claimed modifiers we didn't start with. If there is no renegade then we're both lying or this game is bastard.

Who all has been targeted by modifiers other than titus again?

N1-

RCE - Ascetic
Titus - desperate
Chemist - loyal

N2-

Dave - ??

N3-

Titus - Ascetic

I'm reasonably certain Chemist actually got his N2. He was told at end of N2 and the other people who received modifiers said it took effect the beginning of the night they received it.

I'm not going to be saying what my modifier was unless town plans to do something that would conflict with it.

Tinfoil only one of the modifiers per night are true and the second claimer for that night is actually scum trying to make use of an extra claimed modifier to explain away "bad" results.

[davesaz]

At the bottom of 318 and another 9 pages to read. Not gonna happen right now, I have to go shopping. I was hoping for a quick catchup.
Do you really need to make a post every 20 seconds or so with different ideas? Combining thoughts into lists or paragraphs is much easier to read.

Pedit: No he said he didn't know when it took effect and he assumed at the end of night 1. That mechanic takes effect at the beginning of a night. I'm quite sure of this, either there is a lie involved, or a lack of understanding on Chemist's part.

[davesaz]

Dave can you update this

davesaz
CLAIM: Gunsmith (flavored as a daggersmith)
N1: check Haggle, no dagger (gun). Notified that action is no longer available starting N2 due to juvenile delinquent flip.
N2: no action available. [received a modifier] -- night 2 renegade action
N3: nada

[davesaz]

I mean presuming the original PM was sent to gamma, and chemist got an “oh shit I forgot this” PM, it makes sense, and it’s a really irrevocably stupid thing to claim as scum. I fully believe this regardless of if chemist is scum.

I'm not going to believe that there were 3 modifiers given N1. 2 is a stretch because it requires the renegade to be motivated, either by a motivator role existing or by the renegade having a motivated modifier.

[davesaz]

Mod: Is two a prime number?

Not the mod, but yes it is.

[davesaz]

CLAIM: Announcing Jack of all Trades (cop, PT cop, track) that resets after all of the abilities are used
N1: Copped A50 - no result
Lost both cop and PT cop due to juvenile deliquent and technically became a tracker
N2: Tracked BEF - visited Chara
N3: Tracked Titus - no result

Confirm the N3 is "no result" and

not

"went nowhere" plz.

[davesaz]

Bottom of 324. Robb Stark thing is interesting. Making a note of my stopping point while I pick up Asian Spice takeout.

[davesaz]

I thought it was only 3 mods for n1? RCE + Chemist?

Titus got a mod N1.

[davesaz]

@mod: if someone has a change to their role do they flip with the final version?

[davesaz]

I left off something additional on purpose. It helps town to remain quiet on it a bit longer. Caught up yay.

[davesaz]

It's obvious from the whole thread that it's not Joan, given her neighborhood was with Drew and AF joined it.

Pedit: correct

[davesaz]

Edge case: Haggle is scum doc, Joan is scum renegade who claimed doc to prevent us from thinking about the possibility of Haggle.

[davesaz]

That may actually be the main case. I'm still thinking on it.

[davesaz]

Also correct. It's functionally equivalent to no gun, the same as the wiki version of gunsmith.
BTW I did the thing I complained about earlier. Complaint retracted.

[davesaz]

Wait, if Psycholgist is a type of Cop basically, and to a Gunsmith all Cops carry guns (daggers), then wouldn't Dave have gotten a (target has a dagger) message on Haggle?

That's a decent question. Rolecop is specifically excluded from that in the wiki, though there are claims in this game that rolecops got disabled by JD flip. So I don't know how far cop goes with respect to gunsmith.

[davesaz]

Funny how the pedit showed Bambi but not Weiss. I really don't understand how that part of the forum works lol

[davesaz]

Someone else other than Joan and Haggle claimed neighbor recently. Is that in the big spoiler thing or do I have to scan back 10 pages to find it again?

[davesaz]

Odd Night, Weak, and Neighbor

Last part wasn’t relevant so I forgot

NM, found it.

Neighbor? With whom?

[davesaz]

What does that mean?

[davesaz]

I don't think Haggle was clear on who they cleared.

[davesaz]

Probably... I’d like to make sure all necessary information is talked about.

[davesaz]

I'm impressed, seems everyone has posted within 10 hours, unless I overlooked someone.

[davesaz]

Eh, the boon bank roles make perfect sense, you just have to pay attention.
The complication here is being able to tell which claims are fake. Which is pretty much the complication in any role madness.

[davesaz]

Mod: Do multiple copies of the same Boonbank role take up two variant slots?

If that answer is no, I don't see how RCE and I can both be town.

I don't follow this.

[davesaz]

Aaron is flipped Variant #1
Nancy is Boon #1
Renegade scum is variant #2 (maybe even "split" renegade since 2 mods n1?)

no renegade actions claimed for n2 huh?

any of the dead townies claim receiving any mods?

No renegade for n2. I think Chemist is mistaken about mod timing.

No second modifier for n3 given out.

Only me RCE and chemist got them as far as I know.

You seem to have missed me getting a modifier n2 but not saying what it is.

[davesaz]

Titus, please explain what you're seeing for RCE scum. I think you may have found something but neglected to fill in the blanks on what the something is.

[davesaz]

Mod: Do multiple copies of the same Boonbank role take up two variant slots?

If that answer is no, I don't see how RCE and I can both be town.

The logic of this is flipped, which is what I was confused about.

Multiple copies take multiple slots -> too many modifiers some must be scum.
That would be a yes answer to the question, not a no answer.

This matches something I already said btw. I said that if renegade isn't somehow able to target two slots, then half the modifier claims are scum trying to signal and/or using the "modifier" to flip the results they should be getting/showing if they didn't have the modifier.

[davesaz]

What's the setup niche for Bambi's role as scum?
That isn't a make or break but it's important anyway.

[davesaz]

Why would a scum hider ever exist?

To avoid vigs

Seems a little unusual in a game with only a single odd vig but it's not impossible, the hider did claim odds as well

odd hider vs odd vig would be a little bit low power for scum in this setup would be an additional concern so... not sure overall, not today's problem though because chemist is not getting lynched

Don't confuse the claimed role with actual role.
Hider could be a fake claim and the loyal could be a fake modifier to explain why it never finds scum.

Agree that Chemist probably isn't today's lynch anyway.

[davesaz]

Confirm the modifier I got is not asceitc. That would be one I'd reveal.

[davesaz]

Likely to be copious time, if Boon is still on the same schedule.

[davesaz]

I don't have an issue with sending it to RCE if that's what's best for mech solving but confirming my slot/alignment would just be repetitive at this point.

How's it an alignment check?

[davesaz]

You're thinking logically.
Think like Boon instead.
Boon says it's not a mistake.
He probably thought "works like disloyal from the point of view of town" which means can only target scum (and millers).
If you're not in the frame of mind to negate everything, you forget to flip stuff. Mathematicians get DeMorgan's right, everyone else not so much.

[davesaz]

Dave can you:
-update on bambi and creature reads
-explain that joan post
-explain 50j progression?

Bambi's role should be town. Posting is mildly scummy at times.

Creature's entire thing could be fake, and I think this could easily be his new approach to scumgames.

Joan can't be scum. I'm calling this a hard clear. If she was scum then AF would have joined the scum pt, not the pt than Drew was in.

This was mechanical based on the stuff in AF's flip. The last quoted post below expanded on that theory. It turned out to be wrong.

Oh, shit! So he did claim eventually! I was surprised (to the limit of being shocked, actually) the more comprehensive players didn't picj up on what he was hinting all along. I mean, he was confident enough you just had to think about it before you asked him WHY he was so confident.

TBH I still don't fully believe it. It's out of character for Boon to use a base role instead of one of his special ones. And I don't really buy going to bat for FlippyNips of all people.

Well what's your read on chk/A50 independently?

Weak / strong town respectively.

Also how do you reconcile chk being a scum!rolestopper targeting A50 to pseudo clear him knowing he himself wasn't a miller.

Targeting 50JP would not clear him in any case.
The hypothetical reason for a scum rolestopper to target 50JP would be causing chaos and keeping 50JP from being cleared by other people, which would be expected as IIRC 50JP was the only hard claimed role that could be targeted.
This is identical to the "unknown enhantress" theory except that enchantress would also soft clear 50JP's presumed target (Nips).

It's likely to be wrong in either case, but I'd like it to be resolved at some point.

Nah, maybe I shouldn't get angry here. Using the arbitrary color red (though that's not what AF flipped)

Red 1 <-> town
^
|
V
Red 2 <-> town

Red 3 <-> Red 4

Red 5

I guess that's possible, with an extra PT. He could have claimed doc enabler to try to keep Joan alive and get himself NK'd.

I still think the game design includes a town doc and we have only the one claimed though. It's a theory but it doesn't make sense.

Pedit: ok maybe I do want to do this
VOTE: 50 Judge Powers

If you're asking about the vote, it was policy.
I continue to think any of these are possible. The 1st two are likely, the 3rd one is less likely.
* Boon made an error and Nips is scum despite 50JP's "clear".
* 50JP is basing his interpretation of his role based on the public definition and Boon's usage in the game is different, hence Nips is scum.
* 50JP and Nips are both scum on different subteams.

[davesaz]

Creature claimed one of his JOAT things is a PT cop right?
Taking Creature as town, a PT cop would be useful against scum who are in a PT but don't claim neighbor. We're up to 3 hoods claimed (Joan/Drew/AF, Chemist+Creature?, Haggle+?) and there were two roles that changed hood membership (AF joins a hood, Titus makes one) plus the implication that scum PTs are split and get merged. If it's a town role it's

very

messed up.

Creature as scum, a PT cop can find the other scum team's PT but there are likely a bunch of PTs with town in them. Again it's messed up.

This kinda makes me wonder if the role is even real. If it's a fake claim it's a fairly good one -- juicy enough to motivate town to keep it around, sketchy enough to make survival plausible.

[davesaz]

On page 343 someone finally gets what I'm saying about renegade and vendors.

[davesaz]

Multitasking has to be explicit either in the role or as a modifier or in the op .

[davesaz]

Clarification on this post:

I continue to think any of these are possible. The 1st two are likely, the 3rd one is less likely.
* Boon made an error and Nips is scum despite 50JP's "clear".
* 50JP is basing his interpretation of his role based on the public definition and Boon's usage in the game is different, hence Nips is scum.
* 50JP and Nips are both scum on different subteams.

That was not an exhaustive list of every possible outcome for 50JP and Nips. In particular both town with Nips a miller is possible. For me saying A,B,C are possible doesn't exclude D,E,F unless I include "only" somewhere in the description. Furthermore the "more / less likely" in posts like this only includes the items on the list.

I'm not sure whether to give 50JP more points for not coming unglued, or if I should have expected his reaction to be worse.

Strongly suspect everyone else claiming a modifier the same night Titus did. I don't really expect a "split" modifier, and believe that my modifier and Titus's are the only real ones.

Now that Joan has been shown not to be a town doc there is no further reason not to reveal the modifier I got n2.

macho

It should now be obvious why I didn't want to reveal it.

[davesaz]

I'm asking Boon a question. I don't expect the answer to be a surprise but we'll see...

[davesaz]

RCE, Amrun, Chemist.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Amrun

[davesaz]

I interpret the answer I got from Boon to mean that mafia psychologist would have a knife.

[davesaz]

You seem to be trying on every possible wagon, what's up with that?

[davesaz]

That makes me wonder if there are scum in the disabled.

Follower seeing a kill would be much stronger.

[davesaz]

rce, chemist, and titus all claimed n1 renegade receptions which is weird even if the renegade is split

Repeating my preferred lynch list is RCE, Chemist, Amrun. Gee wonder why the first two are on this list?

[davesaz]

I think I've changed my mind on Bambi's role. I thought it didn't make sense for scum to have it, but that view wasn't placing enough emphasis on balance.
I don't see town!Bambi getting as concerned about hammers. It's possible the early game approach was to look town because meta, and backing off is scum reaction to how we viewed it in this game.

[davesaz]

Explain that chemist / creature thing.

[davesaz]

I also think expecting both town and scum to have a rolestop is pretty far out there.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Bambi Jay

L-1

[davesaz]

We're treating a slot that was universally scumread as assumed town, based mostly on activity and drive. Reminder that replacing into a scum slot and posting your @$$ off is a thing.
Just pointing that out for future reference, if I end up being the kill and the PoE doesn't win it for us.
Yeah, I'm that guy who only believes it when the mod posts it.

[davesaz]

I'm camping from tomorrow around 16oo UTC-7 through Sunday about the same time. I should have cell access but heavy distractions.

[davesaz]

Not sure, he did still decide to join Joan's PT so that's one of the scum he was aware of.

Read AF flip again, he was

not

able to join pt of scum he knew. Unless I completely misread something, what seems like a month ago.

Responding to another thing that came up in the last page, I did indeed forget that a N-shot could be split.

[davesaz]

My modifier PM refers to "intermission 2" (or was it 2nd intermission?) and states that it took effect at the

beginning

of N2. Titus also clearly stated that hers took effect the

beginning

of N1.
I was looking for Chemist to refer to intermission, and he never did say that word fwiw. He claimed it took effect night 1 and said he assumed the end. A real PM specifically says beginning.
I chalked the failure to mention intermission up to Boon sometimes remembering to use the flavor and sometimes not. But it's hella suspicious that the timing of the modifier is reported wrongly.

Also FWIW, RCE never said beginning of night or intermission that I can remember. I'm packing for that camping trip and not going to look for it rn.

[davesaz]

Haggle said in the hood that they thought they might be killed.

Yes that's right, we each investigated the other, and our hood was effectively a masonry. We agreed to hold off claiming it in hopes that we'd both live long enough to make the final PoE a dunk.
Haggle crumbed they chose their investigation target for

reasons

, the reason being the hood.

[davesaz]

I was confused at the mentionsof TSE. Didn't notice the replacement notice.
The mental shift of Creature -> TSE shouldn't come that easily. Makes me wonder if Chemist already knew about the replace.

[davesaz]

50JP's conclusion is actually pretty predictable, if he doesn't keep in mind how analytical I am.
There are some very straightforward rules that I always follow.
Not lynching apparently good PR claims that haven't been CC'd is one of them.
I've been wrong on 2/3 of those calls so far this game, and barely woke up in time for the 3rd one.
That's what happens with reasonably well designed games and players who do well enough at playing them.

I'm confident y'all will come to the correct answer. It shouldn't take much more than thinking about the (lack of) motivation for offing the one person who can hard clear me but hasn't done so yet...

I'm interested to see some vend claims. Not that I think airing out this stuff will actually make a difference, but you never know.

[davesaz]

That's how I read it.

You're in a hood -- we have one mixed and one clean hood so far. Given AF flip I'd expect something to be happening...

[davesaz]

Hmm, aren't there multiple Bambi results that could be false?

[davesaz]

@50JP: Remember this?

Using the arbitrary color red (though that's not what AF flipped)

Red 1 town
^
|
V
Red 2 town

Red 3 Red 4

Red 5

I guess that's possible, with an extra PT.

1 all town hood (myself+Haggle)

2 town/scum hoods (Drew+Joan, Chemist+

Creature

TSE.

1 pair of scum not in any hood (Bambi + ?)

What remains is Chemist or TSE, and someone else. My top candidates for the ? are the vendors.

[davesaz]

Creature not mentioning the Chemist hood looks very suspicious. Haggle and I knew each other were town, Creature and Chemist didn't and therefore should have no reason not to suspect each other.
I'm not totally sold on which one is scum though.

[davesaz]

There are a lot of things that suggest scum Creature.
In the unlikely event scum teams haven't merged, do we get a no-kill night if we get the right parity?

[davesaz]

I may be placing too much faith in symmetry.
Concern over that looking like TMI is partly justified. In college we called this proof by handwaving, where the person attempting to prove something makes several assumptions and magically QED. Also known as proof by intimidation.

[davesaz]

airing out this stuff

confirm

[davesaz]

Have you bothered to get the neighborhood yet?

[davesaz]

Weiss's poe leave Weiss as last scum. That seems kinda risky.

[davesaz]

For R&J, all scum didn't even know each other, so we can't use a max scum on a wagon limit as a guideline.
It would be better to use the full VC for both of those.

[davesaz]

Romeo and Juliet [11]: Chara, Espressojet, Haggle, Venus and Mars

, Amrun,

davesaz

,

AaronFrost

, BrightEyedFish,

Titus

, RCEnigma,

Bambi Jay

——— [EXECUTED]
Emperor flippyNips [4]: TSE, 50 Judge Powers,

Fonz,

Chemist1442,

Haggle [3]: Doctor Drew,

RCEnigma,

Romeo and Juliet

Chkflip [1]:

Joan of Arc

Not Voting [2]: Weiss, Emperor flippyNips,

Chkflip

Doctor Drew

[10]: Emperor flippyNips,

Joan of Arc,

BrightEyedFish,

AaronFrost

, 50 Judge Powers,

Bambi Jay

, Amrun,

Titus

, Chemist1442,

Chara

——— [EXECUTE]

Bambi Jay

[3]:

Haggle, Davesaz, Doctor Drew

Weiss [1]: RCEnigma,
Emperor flippyNips [1]: TSE

Not Voting [4]: Weiss,

Venus and Mars, The Fonz, Chkflip

[davesaz]

D2 strongly suggests at least 1 scum must be in RCE and TSE (Creature) -- and it would be helpful to do wagon motion analysis on d2.

[davesaz]

Claiming ascetic targets with "forgot about ascetic" or "remembered that was the plan previous night" would be the (almost) perfect cover for being out of shots for a split n-shot fish vendor renegade.
Forgetting that was a possibility earlier in this game is somewhat facepalm for me. I don't even remember the result of the previous game that had the split n-shot, would have to look it up again.

[davesaz]

I'm thinking it's RCE or Amrun, with Weiss or 50JP as deepwolf if it isn't over.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Amrun

[davesaz]

I wanted to go RCE first but caved on Amrun too easily. Pretty much the only regret this game.
Weiss came in and saved a slot that was so doomed it wasn't funny.
That's the definition of the White Knight scummy IIRC.