Dogs Vs. Cats Mafia | Endgame

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Murdercat

Won't let you trick town this time!

[Dwlee99]

No see, he's MURDERcat, as in... he will help us murder the cats.

How did I miss this?!

VOTE: Anya

Trying to play both sides, it seems?

[Dwlee99]

oh snap there's one right there

VOTE: Murdercatto

I think you missed the explanation that Murdercat murders cats, get Anya instead.

[Dwlee99]

I appreciate that you got a profile picture. What's screaming out to you about those posts?

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: xofelf

I don't like #314

[Dwlee99]

Anyone on the Toadette wagon wanna talk about it?

[Dwlee99]

I think we should give people some time to catch up, unwnd. There are quite a lot of posts and the game started late at night on mother's day.

[Dwlee99]

I think we should give people some time to catch up, unwnd. There are quite a lot of posts and the game started late at night on mother's day.

Before I head out the door

I don't know why you said this

Is this because I added Beeboy? Go look at any of his scumgames, he outright refuses to play as scum

It irked me the way you said he was refusing to play. The amount of posting so far is ridiculous and I would expect anyone who was busy to need to catch up.

[Dwlee99]

I said I wanted to head out the door, but I must've forgot my lizard coat

Beeboy was apart of my initial team for TM2020 before I tilt-replaced because ABR is a fuckhead and Beeboy replaced because he hates playing scum

We even tried to motivate him and pep talk him and he still refused to do it. I don't know if he's gotten better at this but when he's town he's just town, and when he's scum then he's not here lol

It's funny you say that because I played a game w ABR and Beeboy as mafia way back when. I don't remember Beeboy just not posting, but maybe playstyle changed or life got in the way of posting for a bit. I don't like these meta read things in general, but it's especially frustrating when I see the thread exploding and you talk about inactivity. If I wasn't procrastinating all of the things I have to do, and if my sleep schedule wasn't awful, I wouldn't have posted much either.

[Dwlee99]

Someone tell me where I can find a beeboy post please, I wanna see their iso

Protip: scroll to the bottom of the page and click the drop-down.

[Dwlee99]

Are you trying to derail the xofelf wagon, Andante?

[Dwlee99]

I think "town who isn't towning well" is more plausible for kdowns, but kdowns is still more likely to be scum than a random poster here.

Thinking back to that scumgod Prism newbie game, though, Flow Trap's town behavior in that game is consistent with their behavior here. So I'm just gonnna sheep. VOTE: kdowns

This post is pinging me. Waffling around it being more plausible that kdowns is town but then voting based on sheeping is very... Strange. Especially when xofelf is an option other than sheeping Andante.

[Dwlee99]

Spoiler: Kazyan read list

I understand the anti-Beeboy sentimnet, but since we're less than 24 hours out from the start of the game, I'm not comfortable driving that wagon yet. I feel like it's in our best interest to do that to win the game, but it makes me squicky to lean that hard into demanding that everyone be here always--this is a game where the purpose of long day phases is that you

do

have time.

Anyway:

Pro-Posting:

- Anya
- Firebringer
- Andante
- Nero
- Flow Trap
- unwnd
- Chara
- Pooky? (commented on the page count, but joined the fluffiness)
- Shiro ("I am caught up")
- Murdercat (planned absence, but promised to be very present)

Ambiguous:

- Farkran
- xofelf
- Raya36
- Brave Heart Lion (has one post, but it's enthusiastic)
- Toadette

Anti-Posting:

- Dwlee
- SirCakez
- Beeboy? (has zero posts)
- Isis? (has one irrelevant post)
- Kazyan
- NorwegianboyEE
- Flea the Magician
- kdowns ("15 pages of shit")
- Save the Dragons ("holy crap there are a lot of posts")

Was this helpful? Probably not.

I also don't like this list of reads. Has flow trap in pro-posting despite them currently voting flow trap, town reads someone for "joined the fluffiness," includes self in anti-posting, and just generally meh reads. Why is Toadette ambiguous, for instance? I felt like Toadette came across easy to put into a town-lean bin.

[Dwlee99]

It's not a list of reads, though. It's a list of who was pro-fluff and who was anti-fluff. I don't have 24 distinct reads; a lot of people blend together.

Oh I see, I guess I misinterpreted. That makes more sense as the meaning of the list. Still not a fan of 614.

[Dwlee99]

Oh I see, I guess I misinterpreted. That makes more sense as the meaning of the list. Still not a fan of 614.

That's fair. To know more about how you think, why did you get the impression that I'd scumread myself? Did that come across as a Jester soft-claim or something?

I thought it was a joke of sorts. Like someone going "haha I'm scum " I always find that sort of thing strange, but people do it. I think Toadette's first post was claiming that they could be mafia, for instance. Strange all around.

[Dwlee99]

Spoiler: Nero's Andante reasoning

my Andante reasoning isn't very "strong" and its just feels, IDK if anyone will agree with me or not but yeah...

not if we unite to take you out first..

I think it's cute how Nero thinks he's our leader

these just felt like things scum would say. like 60 seems like them fishing for town cred. its like "lookI'm sooo one f you guy!" and 114 is talking down to me.

you're recruiting me?? to which side?

I still think this is a bit fake-sounding. I mean would she be worried that an anti-town faction would have a public recruit option or that Pooky would name all his recruits?

Also, she's doing this kinda weird thing where she assumes that the cats are the scum team just b/c the name is "dogs vs. cats" but many of you have said you are other animals and the town pm lists threasts as our enemy. Am I just overthinking this?

I like your reasoning here but I'd like to see more stuff from Xofelf before I consider hopping off this wagon. There is definitely more stuff against Andante than against them but I think part of that is the sheer volume of posts that she has made. She also is trying to counter wagon off of Xof so I'm unsure if that means they could be aligned.

Following this up, i really don't understand the scumreads on kazyan, could you all summarize that for me?

I'm not sure if Cake has different reasoning than mine, but for me, it was the weird hop onto kdowns based on sheeping Andante in 614.

[Dwlee99]

I've been having similar sentiments as 685, but I would like some questions answered by Xof: Why does Kazyan's feelings about posts list make you feel like you know where they're coming from? Did you make the same misinterpretation that I did, that 587 was a reads list? If so, why do you like those reads?

[Dwlee99]

P-Edit: Actually no, I didn't think it was a readslist. More like a... effort list almost? I liked it because it gave me a feel on the way in which they think. That's what I meant by where they're coming from. Just reading it, I had that sort of feel I get from people who are putting in good game effort in. I don't know if that helps to explain? Just pinged in a good way. It made me smile and have a sense of "yeah this person, they're a good and I want them to keep talking" as opposed to the other ping i get which involves much nose-wrinkling and grump.

I'm having trouble understanding this. How did you interpret Kazyan's post? As a list of who was putting effort in? I'm confused about you saying you liked that they put themselves in the anti-posting spot when I feel like that is NAI.

[Dwlee99]

I like how xofelf is adjusting to the gamestate instead of going back to rvs-y stuff

I just isoed them since they were top wagon and i don't understand why - if it is even a serious wagon? Which votes on xofelf are actually non-rvs scumreads?

The wagon started because they were very defensive upon a couple of votes. Now that they're posting more I'm a bit perplexed on their analysis and as Save said I feel like them and Andante could be connected.

[Dwlee99]

Andante's reaction to the xofelf wagon could be scum trying to gain towncred by townreading a town or defending a scum buddy. That they haven't attempted to defend not liking the xofelf wagon makes me think we are more likely to find scum in Andante than xofelf, though.
VOTE: Andante

[Dwlee99]

Andante's reaction to the xofelf wagon could be scum trying to gain towncred by townreading a town or defending a scum buddy. That they haven't attempted to defend not liking the xofelf wagon makes me think we are more likely to find scum in Andante than xofelf, though.
VOTE: Andante

uhhh what happens when I flip town?

Optimally that wouldn't happen. If you think it will then tell us who scum is other than the no-reason read on kdowns.

I don't want to play hero or seem like I need to defend people but Andante being called scum is baffling. I think people are really annoyed about her spam and think maybe she just has nothing to say, yet I see a lot of method into it. You could even compare and contrast this thought as to why I didn't like Kaz. Andante sees something she doesn't like and much like a dog starts barking at trouble. Kaz however sits back and uses opposable thumbs to make Pro/Anti lists that generate no purpose beyond discussing a potential what-if topic. What if scum are anti-posters? What if town are pro-posters? Who knows. Even he himself initially said 'will this help anyone? probably not'

Humans are the enemy

Kaz has loads more content than Andante. I don't like Kaz's posts but acting like Andante's are better is baffling.

[Dwlee99]

Andante's reaction to the xofelf wagon could be scum trying to gain towncred by townreading a town or defending a scum buddy. That they haven't attempted to defend not liking the xofelf wagon makes me think we are more likely to find scum in Andante than xofelf, though.
VOTE: Andante

This is gargantuan leaps of logic, are you a Kangaroo

Should've responded in the previous post but missed it in the p-edit. Look at the way Andante reacts to being asked why she doesn't like the Xof wagon. It's weird af

[Dwlee99]

Kaz has loads more content than Andante. I don't like Kaz's posts but acting like Andante's are better is baffling.

Andante takes the initiative by voting bad people, seeking out trouble fearlessly

Kaz sits at their desk writing up tall tales on potential good and bad people

I choose Andante every time

Maybe the spam has eroded my memory but I seem to remember Andante woofing, calling kmdown scum and never elaborating, and saying she doesn't like xof's wagon without elaboration. What are you seeing?

[Dwlee99]

It's weird af

Is it really? xofelf was part of the dog crew and the antics last night, now if you actually looked into those interactions, maybe you'd understand where I'm coming from.

I reread them and it's all just shitposts like I remember.

And, Dwlee, if you were town, I feel like youd actually try and read me rather than find any reason to push me.

To be fair to the possibility of you being town, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to vote you in part for having over 100 posts. But turns out that the rest of the reasons are also good enough for me on D1.

[Dwlee99]

I actually think it would be worse if Andante felt she needed to elaborate on voting kdowns or why she felt she was scum. kdowns had four posts(?) at the time. She just saw something and bark bark bark

If the animal jokes get too much

Too bad I'm making them all game, have a cow

This is fair but the justification could be as simple as "I didn't like this specific part of this post." And then how long did it take Andante to come up w a reason to town read Xof that was just "read when we posted memes together?" No me gusta.

[Dwlee99]

Don't take my posts as too argumentative, I like to do this sort of thing for figuring out reads. I'm much less sure of myself than I think I might be coming across.

[Dwlee99]

I really dislike Kaz voting cake.

[Dwlee99]

I appreciated the catch-up posts that I remember reading. I don't particularly mind the kaz wagon that seemed to spawn out of it either, but can someone tell me why P(kaz = scum) > P(andante = scum)? Had this conversation with unwnd (who I seem to disagree with on almost everything) but didn't feel like we reached a good conclusion with it.

[Dwlee99]

What are your thoughts on the main wagons?

[Dwlee99]

How about Kaz wagon that is forming? No rush if you're not caught up yet. How many people are even still voting xof?

[Dwlee99]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84135

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=84956

These are two games I've had with beeboy-scum

Unwnd said something about his "playstyle" as scum being to just refuse to play from his TM game.

The first game you linked, Beeboy replaces into a scum slot while it is heavily suspected, tries to give reads, and is ultimately eliminated. The second one I skimmed and it seems he made a lot of shitposts, which would have been perfect for this game. I'm not convinced by this meta read, especially because of how early it is still.

[Dwlee99]

How about this one as town where he gets force replaced day one? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84750

P-edit:

wasn't beeboy town in this game and ducked out without doing anything?

viewtopic.php?t=84750&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

I got sniped.

[Dwlee99]

Anya, that would have been more believable with beeboy still on no vote.

By the way my current opinion is that the kazyan wagon is scumdriven, i cannot believe for a second that he is being scumread for trying to organize the thread

Out of all the possible reasons to vote anyone, choosing to vote for busywork is terrible, and the wagon growing so high is opportunistic at best

Can we have a vc?

I think Kazyan's vote right now is on SirCakez. Bad vote imo. I also hated their sheep of Andante to vote kmdown earlier. Granted, I'm not on the wagon, but the wagon seemed to grow naturally in a response to people catching up with the thread voting for him. Unless you're suggesting Raya is forming a counterwagon to save Andante?

[Dwlee99]

Spoiler: Unofficial VoteCount

Andante [6] Nero Cain, norwegianboyEE, dwlee99, save the dragons, sircakez, farkran
Kazyan [2] raya36, brave heart lion
xofelf [2] MURDERCAT, toadette
toadette [1] flea
Farkran [2] chara, anya
Beeboy [2] pooky, unwnd
sircakez [1] kazyan
kdowns [1] Andante
anya [1] firebringer
NorwegianBoyEE [2] flow trap, shiro

Not Voting [4]
Beeboy, kdowns, xofelf, ivyeo

If Anya's switch to Farkran was intended as anything more than a possible reaction test, I'm confused by it. Andante is still parked on kdowns and I don't believe we have received decent reasons. I would like to see the four non-voters do something with their vote so I can at least know what they're thinking. I don't like kazyan or flea's votes cause I townread those people although I can't remember when the flea vote was placed. I want firebringer to catch-up and update his vote cause I think that one was placed during the animal noise phase of the game. I also do not like the NorwegianBoyEE votes and that Shiro caught up and decided to vote with flow trap there is weird. I don't think Shiro gave reads on Andante / Kazyan / Xof and I'd like their thoughts.

[Dwlee99]

I read between the last vote count and now and updated it on my phone so if there are mistakes I wouldn't be

too

surprised, but I think it is right. The only vote off of Kaz was Anya to you.

[Dwlee99]

@kazyan why are you voting Cakez?

and that Shiro caught up and decided to vote with flow trap there is weird.

Why?

Was there a reason attached to Shiro or yours vote? I don't recall it.

[Dwlee99]

@kazyan why are you voting Cakez?

and that Shiro caught up and decided to vote with flow trap there is weird.

Why?

Was there a reason attached to Shiro or yours vote? I don't recall it.

Yeah well that means I probably had no influence on them

I feel like this is a weird reaction to my post.

[Dwlee99]

I would like to formally announce that your general is forming a new alliance. This isn't your racist rat or dog federation that only allows a certain species in. Here at Animals for the Defense of Animal town or ADAT we welcome all creatures.

will you join me cakez and dwelee?

I'm in. I need to know if you're making a VHS reference here on purpose

@kazyan why are you voting Cakez?

Because he added his vote (813) to a growing wagon with a weak reason that came out of nowhere. To me, it screamed "I just realized/was told that I should contribute to getting this miselim, but I need to come up something to explain my vote."

Was it weak? There were some lead up posts iirc. I'll reread.

[Dwlee99]

Spoiler: SirCakez Andante Reasoning

I strongly believe that we should target

Andante
flow trap
Ivyeo
unwnd

maybe
Chara

maybe
toadette

haha yall couldn't touch me if you put all your troops towards that effort

also this post is trash

preliminary scum bin (ivy, andante, kaz, unwnd, flow trap)

i don't like some of unwnd's logic, it doesn't feel like his town thought process
flow trap is just vomiting so much useless shit that looks like scumhunting but does nothing but inflate the page count
and I talked about the other three

VOTE: andante
Just because that post they made about us being unable to yeet them pissed me off

I see what you're saying Kazyan, the reasoning given does boil down to that one post pinging Cakez. But also, that is more reasoning than I've seen from Andante so I'm not sure how I should interpret that.

[Dwlee99]

I'm a big fan of Murdercat's catch-up post.

Kaz was really out here just like "oh I agree with you" on SirCakez. Which I mean, it's cool to admit when you change your mind, but also I like having a bit of a back and forth about that kind of thing. There were only really three posts in question, though, so I guess there wasn't too much to discuss.

I'm glad Cakez posted more reasons he is on Andante right now because I felt like a lot of it was implied rather than stated. Speaking of Andante, 14 hours without a post seems a lot for her. Also, I'm still waiting on firebringer to "destroy the wagon" or whatever he said.

[Dwlee99]

Also, I'm still waiting on firebringer to "destroy the wagon" or whatever he said.

im perpetually promising more to deliver.
but if u have questions for me. i am available for next 15minutes while my work computer does updates.

ama

Why is Andante town?

[Dwlee99]

I was really looking forward to the fifteen minutes of firebringer time. Unlucky.

[Dwlee99]

lol I don't even sr the person I'm voting right now

This post is not good.

I'd like to give beeboy some more time tbh

I'm just gonna state this now.

If beeboy gets replaced for inactivity or request I'm gonna be pushing to policy elim the slot so I don't want his teammates to get their hopes up that they can be saved by the bell or some shit

This plan is awful.

Is Norwee "caught for the wrong reasons" here? That's kinda the vibes I'm getting.

[Dwlee99]

lol I don't even sr the person I'm voting right now

This post is not good.

Disagree!

So not voting for your scum reads is good? Does Andante have a scum read? What has she done?

i don't think you're taking pressure well. and instead of re-evaluating, you double down on your OMGUS vote.

Not like I take pressure well.... someone pushed me, I gave up and claimed doc once...

Also this??

[Dwlee99]

This post is not good.

What make it not good opposed to meh?

Combined with your next post it seems like you don't find anyone scummy? Do you typically not have any scum reads?

Looks like your intent is to just tunnel me? not my fault I only have TRs I'm confident in... Tell the scum to make themselves known then... I haven't found a vote I like

Have you ever been tunneled before?

P-edit: The thread is moving so fast holy crap. I've gotten p-review'd three times.

FOUR and

VOTE: Beeboy

wow lol

[Dwlee99]

I don't understand why we should ever eliminate a slot that doesn't even post. The allignment indicative information we'd get out of that flip if scum is zero to none. And if they flip town it's even worse.

because a slot that doesn't post (not saying this is beeboy as the day is still young) gives zero information alive too, and they need to go before the endgame. i'd want to eliminate that slot regardless.

It was being proposed that we eliminate the slot even if it gets a replacement.

in this case there happens to be evidence it is very AI for beeboy.

I don't think this is the case based on what I've seen. I think Beeboy has adopted this playstyle regardless of playstyle and also has happened to roll scum lately. I played with him a while ago and he definitely did not refuse to post as scum.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: kaz I think I SR this more strongly than Andante now

Assuming you're still catching up, can you let me know why this is once you're done? I asked in-thread earlier and I didn't get a response.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: kaz I think I SR this more strongly than Andante now

Assuming you're still catching up, can you let me know why this is once you're done? I asked in-thread earlier and I didn't get a response.

still catching up but which part? kaz or andante?

Why P(kaz = scum) > P(andante = scum)

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: kaz I think I SR this more strongly than Andante now

Assuming you're still catching up, can you let me know why this is once you're done? I asked in-thread earlier and I didn't get a response.

still catching up but which part? kaz or andante?

Why P(kaz = scum) > P(andante = scum)

Everything Kaz posts gives me massive scum pings, over and over. I've called out like 5 of them and could probably quote more.
Andante is more of a tone read, and their recent posting has felt a little better. but not enough to move them out of my scum pile.

I think Kaz echoes enough of my sentiments that I don't feel that weird about some of their posts. For instance, you didn't like their one post about the absence of the hyperposters for a bit, but I had a similar feeling. I agree that the application of it was off ("now that I'm the center of attention") but I still feel worse about Andante than Kaz. A lot of it is tonal, as you said, but I really get rubbed the wrong way when she talks about voting for people she doesn't scum read or claiming doctor for funsies in a different game. And then that beeboy vote.

I recall some people TRing Toadette? why is that? I can't even remember any of their posts.

I liked Toadette for her "early" activity but don't have anything concrete.

[Dwlee99]

Andante has been one of the bigger topics and I strongly believe that the reasons she's being scumread for are NAI. I wouldn't call her a townread. I just think the scumreads there are opportunistic and need to be challenged.

Why do you find the scumreads on Andante opportunistic and townread me?

[Dwlee99]

To borrow something drippinggoofball once said about me
she is so earnest town to me. Like bleeds town in away that sounds genuine in posts about what she is thinking doing. Don't think anything is fake from her.

She kind of reminds me of a younger me.

I agree that some or even a lot of her posts come across as genuine, but I don't feel like that justifies a town read. There is other content that has come across as less genuine. The example that comes to mind to me is when she accused me of tunneling her, it felt a little too ridiculous for me to take genuinely.

Andante could normally be lynchbait but sometimes lynchbait just gets sent a scum pm. And I also think that calling some lynchbait would be a p good way to defend them. If andante is scum I could imagine that the following conversation went down in the scum pt.

Andante: shit I rolled scum. What do I do?!?
her scumbuddies: that's ok, just play up your lynchability.

That Nero consistently reads my mind is a good sign.

Why do you find the scumreads on Andante opportunistic and townread me?

Not all of them are bad. I just think Andante is miselim bait. The reason I townread you is because you have been consistently posting content and I find myself agreeing with a lot of it. I can easily follow your thought process and I'm getting the feeling you're genuinely scumhunting. I also almost never make reads based on associations of two people still alive.

[-snip-]

Can you explain what your case is on Andante (or anyone else scumreading her)? Maybe I'm missing something but what I remember seeing so far has just been NAI to me.

I guess I'm confused why you think it is opportunism to be on Andante but haven't really named examples of such opportunism and presumably don't think so about my vote. There are three votes other than mine on Andante, which ones do you find opportunistic?

[Dwlee99]

I've seen Andante hyperpost like this as town, does she do this as scum or does she freeze? There's kind of a sound barrier break element where I don't want to lim someone just on being able to make a high number of posts that have some kind of topic and don't feel forced. It's just so much hard to do as scum then town and if it actually is scum putting on the ritz it often flames out in this really apparent way later on anyway

I like can't imagine this kind of slot being the best D1 elim in a 24p really

You're trying to meta a player with zero scum games. On a more light-hearted note, Andante and I had the same first newbie mod despite joining five years apart. Kinda cool.

I strongly disagree on beeboy being a good elim. I don't think we will get alignment indicative information out of it and his meta isn't to only do this as scum. I think we will just be eliminating a slot that has the possibility of a strong town player replacing into it.

[Dwlee99]

Kaz, are you a jester? No offense, but 1550 + your read on Andante are ridiculous together.

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee if I winked with my left eye in 90% of my scum games and did it in 10% of my towngames and you saw me winking with my left eye in a game where everyone in the game has a ~25% chance to be a scum would you eliminate me or hope for a different player with a 25% chance to be town who you can guess 5% better with nonmeta social deduction

In your example there would be a 75% chance of hitting scum by voting you so I'd go for it. I don't think the probabilities work out that way in our game, though.

[Dwlee99]

That's why I'm not calling it a scum tell? It's something I simply noticed.

Sure, but it probably should be.

[Dwlee99]

The sample data for beeboys meta is the same

Do you want me to go through and check every game for the past year? I checked I think the first 4 or 5 and found him scum in all but one, and he replaced out D1 of the town game. But when he replaced in as scum he posted a decent amount (only alive one day) and shitposted in another one. I don't think the distribution you're claiming is correct.

[Dwlee99]

@Toadette

Shitposty:
viewtopic.php?t=84956&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Replaces in + tries:
viewtopic.php?t=84135&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Dwlee99]

@Toadette

Shitposty:
viewtopic.php?t=84956&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Replaces in + tries:
viewtopic.php?t=84135&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

we have very different definitions of "trying" since I used those examples as times where I played with scum!beeboy and he didn't try at all lol

I responded at the time to your links and you ignored me.

[Dwlee99]

i like you even more now andante

dunno about toadette yet

VOTE: murdecat where's the multiple presents

I liked seeing your reasoning on Raya. Why are you on murdercat now instead?

[Dwlee99]

I have Shiro as nullscum in my head but I think a wagon there has similar issues to a beeboy elim in that we don't really get information from it. I also still think Andante is more likely to flip scum than Shiro. I also feel like Andante is anti-town regardless of alignment right now, but I might take jokes about being scum like this one unusually poorly.

altho voting with my srs...
/puke

it's ok, we're bussing!

I remember one of my first threads in mafia discussion was about how much I dislike this exact kind of post.

[Dwlee99]

Kdowns what is your take on the beeboy situation?

[Dwlee99]

It's kinda against the rulez to claim scum with someone else but its also kinda a silly rule, isk

That's actually a rule? I don't remember that at all.

[Dwlee99]

I think Norwee is very defensive but I'm not convinced that is scum-indicative. I think others noted that it is really just his playstyle to react like that to pressure. Nothing else I've seen from him really jumped out to me as scummy either, so I don't understand the wagon that quickly formed on him. The wagon is also comprised of a null-scum read (shiro), a null-town read (toadette, anya was nulltown for the Raya push but she seems to have kind of departed from it), and three nulls for me so I'm really not a fan of it.

Andante is seeming more town in the last couple of pages but my gut is telling me to not left her off the hook just because of that.

[Dwlee99]

I'm more convinced by your second post than your first. I'll think it over more later.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: shiro

i want a cherry

VOTE: raya

i feel accomplished in life

How did you manage to make three posts that I disagree with in a minute, Andante?

[Dwlee99]

Forgot I had those quotes saved (relates to my null feelings on Anya)

When Norway is town and wagoned he cries like a baby. Is he doing that?

If we get rid of the pejorative, kinda.

[Dwlee99]

Omg Titus! I'm very excited you're here. It's been so long.

[Dwlee99]

andante andante i want the beans i wanna make sure you aren't just pretending to say i'm a wolf bc i thought you were town for it earlier

what? lol all you have are these filler posts, I feel like it's fluff from scum

:I

why haven't we yeeted beeboy? are we gonna wait for a replacement on that

I don't get why so many of y'all are so eager to eliminate the beeboy slot. I do not think his activity was alignment indicative at all and I've posted evidence to this effect.

you can rejoin it, I guess I just don't really like the Shiro vote. It concerns me that both counter wagons to Andante of be lurkers (bee and shiro) both are real null and easily scapegoatable.

understandable
i just want to widen my pushes here a bit because i've been on the same three people for a while (anda, kaz, ivy)
i don't expect this wagon to go to elim
and Shiro's reaction upon returning to thread does not feel super great
and I think the Norwe wagon is ass

I agree on the Norway wagon but I didn't find Shiro's return too objectionable. I'm scumreading him more for the things that happened before that post, and feel like since then I am getting a bunch of null flags.

when i return i want to see a cozy night greet me let's not take forever with this day

VOTE: beeboy

turn on the hydraulic press before everyone gets bored and tired

I don't like this post. In general, Anya will post things I like about other players and then randomly hop her vote around. I can't help but feel like she could be picking up on legitimate reasons to scumread her buddies, saying them for towncred later, and then hopping off of the wagon so that it doesn't really go anywhere.

[Dwlee99]

Y'all are really trying to prove his point about the wagon composition

what's your proof dwlee

VOTE: Norwegian

Why would town!Anya make this post?

[Dwlee99]

Okay sure I get your vote (you've been flipping between a set of people that includes Norway for a while) but "what's your proof?" It feels super weird.

[Dwlee99]

what's your proof i change my vote a lot

i figured that wouldn't last

VOTE: beeboy

I'm being trolled

[Dwlee99]

I should be sleeping soon (have to get up around 7 EST) but I'll probably be up for a little bit longer. What's on your mind?

[Dwlee99]

I don't remember asking you any questions. I'm currently scumreading Andante, Anya, Flow, Raya, Shiro, and maybe Pooky? This list is in no particular order and all have varying degrees of certainty.

My reasoning for Andante is clear I think if you look through my ISO or read Nero's posts. In essence, until maybe the last 10 hours-ish I felt like she wasn't doing anything content-wise. This has since changed (which is why I made my post about not letting her off the hook), but her reactions to the votes were strange and her case against Anya was incredibly hypocritical earlier. She accused Anya of primarily fluff posting when 1. Anya has posted a decent amount of content from what I remember and 2. Andante does not get to accuse others of posting fluff.

Anya bothers me for reasons I've posted on the page and last page. I liked her content when she was pushing Raya earlier because she was saying things I had picked up on that I didn't like about Raya. Now she has moved her vote enough times it feels nonsensical and hasn't actually used her vote to push anyone. She claimed she was switching to Murdercat to pressure him and then moved it before he even came back.

It's been a while since I've really ingested a flow post but I didn't like the general vibes of its posts and itwas on-off the beeboy wagon at some point. If the beeboy slot is scum I think we should look to flow as a possible not really committed busser.

Raya worries me because I remember not liking her reasoning about the Andante wagon. She said it felt opportunistic but didn't really expand on that. I guess this is the reminder she asked for to answer that question @Raya.

I didn't like Shiro's posts before his return from lurkville. Bad vibes it seems. The posts since haven't convinced me of him being town either.

Pooky has a question mark but I feel like they're kind of being disingenuous with their meta read on beeboy. Apparently we just have differing opinions on "trying" from beeboy in some other games, but I felt it was pretty clear that the posting in the games I linked constituted much more than what happened this game. There was a game beeboy replaced in as scum and I believe tried despite being pretty much the guaranteed lynch iirc, and a game where beeboy shitposted as scum quite a bit. As to the latter, I think that beeboy could have easily jumped in early game with all the shit posts. That he didn't indicates to me that the lack of posts is not really alignment indicative, but pooky disagrees on what I feel are dubious grounds which was just this.

we have very different definitions of "trying" since I used those examples as times where I played with scum!beeboy and he didn't try at all lol

After typing this all up I almost want to move Pooky away from the question mark I have associated with them but I'm still not sure if I'm missing something crucial about the Beeboy games that were linked.

[Dwlee99]

-snip-

So do you agree with any of my scumreads?

4. Defending beeboy for no reason? Unless you have a different experience with beeboy than the 3 or 4 people who said he's hardlurking as scum - this is not to say beeboy is certainly scum but i dislike the contrast in confidence if there's no reason to justify that

Raya could be scum

I agree a lot with dwlee. Although i don't scumread pooky. It is true that the town!pooky who fought me two games ago was much more active though. I might want to reassess later, but definitely far from my today's favorite lim

These don't feel like they make much sense together because I'm arguably doing the most "defending" of the beeboy slot and even did it in the post you quote.

I have Shiro as nullscum in my head but I think a wagon there has similar issues to a beeboy elim in that we don't really get information from it. I also still think Andante is more likely to flip scum than Shiro. I also feel like Andante is anti-town regardless of alignment right now, but I might take jokes about being scum like this one unusually poorly.

-snip-

I remember one of my first threads in mafia discussion was about how much I dislike this exact kind of post.

OK so who is your optimal information yeet?

I don't really have one other than not beeboy's slot (or at least for now). I think any of my scumreads would be fine for information.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Anya
After sleeping on it, I really don't like her responses to me last night. It all felt so awkward. People can jokingly troll like she was doing but it did not come across right to me.

I didn't have as strong of a gut reaction to the Murdercat posts as y'all so my read on him is very dependent on how he catches up. I liked his early stuff, the last few posts were kind of weird champ and so cancel it out, and I want more content from him.

i find this a more important question to answer than catching up with every post in the thread.

qft

[Dwlee99]

Titus, have you been keeping up with the thread before replacing in? If so, what did you think of your slot before you got sent your role pm?

[Dwlee99]

Nero I want your read on Anya.

[Dwlee99]

Nero I want your read on Anya.

eh. She's pretty null for me. This seems pretty much the same as I've seen her b4 . I like some of her voting history. I didn't like her town read of andante. I posted it earlier but I was worried that her "it feels like 3 scum" might be a slip. MB with 3 man teams seems very plausible. If you want to argue that she's hunting the other team then fine but she's not my preferred wagon. If I were to vote her it would just be to get a hard-to-read slot out.

My issue wasn't that I thought she was hunting the other team. I think she made a half-assed push on Raya, switched her vote a bunch of times, and repeated the process. Her interactions with me last night felt terrible as well.

[Dwlee99]

Does Pooky have any content that isn't about beeboy? Really doesn't feel like it from a skim of their ISO.

[Dwlee99]

I believe Titus and Pooky looks awful in these pages. Only shows up to mentions of their name and to push the beeboy slot.

[Dwlee99]

Yes I know Titus is beeboy. I said beeboy cause that is who the initial case was on.

[Dwlee99]

Looks is for the singular. Pooky is the subject there.

[Dwlee99]

You're misreading the syntax I think? I'm on mobile and your interpretation of my post doesn't make sense.

[Dwlee99]

I believe the claim as well. Is the misunderstanding because I used their for pooky (they don't have a pronoun listed)? I'll agree it isn't very grammatically intuitive but I think it is perfectly fine unless the Northeast is teaching a different dialect of English. Posting about this on mobile during lunch is extremely frustrating when I keep getting sniped.

[Dwlee99]

I think the people who aren't on either norwee/titus need to commit

I don't want to vote either of these. I want Pooky/Anya.

[Dwlee99]

Norwee doesn't even have anything to do with the last 10 pages. Why is this the binary we are setting?

[Dwlee99]

4 days.

[Dwlee99]

Slowing down the game would make it easier to read, not harder. Right now, rushing the game serves to make everyone feel obligated to post and accelerates the process. I don't want to be glued to this thread 24/7 like I need to be if we are going at this pace.

[Dwlee99]

I'm gonna slowly reread since the Titus replace in and then give my thoughts.

[Dwlee99]

@Farkran I don't think you answered this.

4. Defending beeboy for no reason? Unless you have a different experience with beeboy than the 3 or 4 people who said he's hardlurking as scum - this is not to say beeboy is certainly scum but i dislike the contrast in confidence if there's no reason to justify that

Raya could be scum

I agree a lot with dwlee. Although i don't scumread pooky. It is true that the town!pooky who fought me two games ago was much more active though. I might want to reassess later, but definitely far from my today's favorite lim

These don't feel like they make much sense together because I'm arguably doing the most "defending" of the beeboy slot and even did it in the post you quote.

does this change with multiball, Titus?

I have reason to suspect multiball but no hard evidence of such. Where does this come from? Why can't there just be one scumteam?

Yeah, but this game is called Dogs versus cats and town are explicitly animals.

Dogs and cats being the bad guys is just not a thing.

it has been talked about in the thread a fair bit, obviously you wouldn't have read this yet but i think it makes sense. i am curious about why you suspect multiball.

pedit: i was thinking it was a cat mafia vs. dogs but that the dogs were some kind of special town faction because dogs vs cat media often features evil cats and Varsoon's SU mafia did something like that with the crystal gems.
but in hindsight multiball just makes a lot more sense and is simpler than some highly specialized mechanic in a Varsoon theme.

I'd rather sit on why I suspect multiball but I may have no choice. I logically deduced that dogs and cats are not the bad guys, but from my spot it's not hard.

Here are three softs. Granted, all pretty soon before she claimed. But they do at least exist.

Nero I want your read on Anya.

eh. She's pretty null for me. This seems pretty much the same as I've seen her b4 . I like some of her voting history. I didn't like her town read of andante. I posted it earlier but I was worried that her "it feels like 3 scum" might be a slip. MB with 3 man teams seems very plausible. If you want to argue that she's hunting the other team then fine but she's not my preferred wagon. If I were to vote her it would just be to get a hard-to-read slot out.

My issue wasn't that I thought she was hunting the other team. I think she made a half-assed push on Raya, switched her vote a bunch of times, and repeated the process. Her interactions with me last night felt terrible as well.

I wish Nero or anyone responded to this. I feel like Anya is getting away with this and we are between eliminating two people I don't think are scum.

Does Pooky have any content that isn't about beeboy? Really doesn't feel like it from a skim of their ISO.

This is the last post before I made before I felt there was total information overload from the amount of posts.

[Dwlee99]

Does Pooky have any content that isn't about beeboy? Really doesn't feel like it from a skim of their ISO.

Are you trying to shift a wagon to someone for "no content" ?? feels sus

I feel like you're town now because of your + kmdown's softs in relation to Titus but also why do you keep making posts like this? I don't even understand why you thought the beeboy wagon was good before Titus claimed because I just remember you naked voting it.

i will promise to drive the dwlee elim tomm after titus flips red today

lol you're the one who came up with the read first,

i just remembered beeboy being really flakey as scum after you brought it up

then i remembered being tilted at him stealing my dance partner

then i was consumed by the desire to eat him

I feel like this post is trying to distance yourself from responsibility if the Titus elim goes through and the post above this one feels fake.

VOTE: Titus

your claim is unbelievable and if true will be valuable information for us

Feel like it's more valuable after it can potentially get results. If Nero's theory is correct, I imagine there will be ways to tell with the results.

[Dwlee99]

I found your theory plausible, Nero. I've seen some Bojack and I'm p sure he is crazy. Regardless, more information alive than dead for now I think.

I'm currently going over all the setup spec with aliens and I don't really think there is anything to comment on here. People are just saying things and I'm getting nothing from it.

[Dwlee99]

I am thinking that it could be something completely different from that so I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Dwlee99]

I'll admit I am a bit confused by the gamestate with my SRs defending me and my townreads pushing me.

This is the only comment that Titus has made that feels scummy to me. Everything else feels like town!Titus from other games with her (albeit a while ago).

[Dwlee99]

If we are making this Anya vs Murdercat we also need some Anya votes. I'm good with this because Murdercat dropped off the face of the planet.

[Dwlee99]

Nope

Related is that I don't think I have a meta anymore (or at least not the same meta) because of how long I took a break for and I've changed a lot as a person. I've played some "discord mafia" recently but it is awful so I'm trying to escape here. If you look at my games from way back when (but don't because I cringe), I post like, well, a high schooler. Cause I was.

[Dwlee99]

I like Murdercat's E-1 reaction, but if we have two people giving credence to Titus' claim why should we elim that slot?

[Dwlee99]

Fair enough on the first point, but if I thought his flip had the highest chance to be scum I'd be voting him instead of sitting my vote on Anya.

[Dwlee99]

Timely. I'm not a huge fan of kdowns naked voting murdercat (which he may have thought was a hammer) and then peacing. But also he is part of the Titus soft-confirmers.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: flowheart

????

Back to MURDERCAT please 11 votes

2 votes and then we're home-bound

E-2

Ok anya i assume you're bussing but you better end the day by post 3000

VOTE: Titus

Oh murdercat is the leading wagon

VOTE: Murdercat

End this fucking day, cretins

I'm confused.

[Dwlee99]

Norwee dwlee chara flea nerocain please vote murdercat and move on

Why would I vote someone I townread when it isn't time-sensitive?

At this point it seems like day is just going to be running up lurkers til they town spew at E-1. I'd rather focus on Anya or Pooky still.

[Dwlee99]

I'm inclined to believe that Xof just does that because lying about their own meta would be very dumb.

Norwee dwlee chara flea nerocain please vote murdercat and move on

Why would I vote someone I townread when it isn't time-sensitive?

At this point it seems like day is just going to be running up lurkers til they town spew at E-1. I'd rather focus on Anya or Pooky still.

Why do you townread murdercat? Is there anything i don't see?

Read the E-1 spew + content since being voted up. It screams town to me.

[Dwlee99]

I did

And i am not buying that he had nothing to say before being runned up but now that he risked dying he has suddenly a lot of stuff to say

With the pace of the game I buy that he wasn't caught up.

I don't know what to tell you guys, at this point i would be fine with limming shiro or flow trap, maybe even fb, but i am shocked that we're expecting scum to not even try to look town when dying

Could I interest you in an Anya vote?

[Dwlee99]

Unwnd/Farkran do y'all want to talk me into murdercat being evil or are we just going to do the "vote your townread to end day" conversation a bunch of times.

Like the fact MURDERCAT has gotten all the way up to fucking 11 and then people went 'lol wait kinda townie' tells me this is just pedantic multiball scum bs

Does that make you think he is town or evil?

[Dwlee99]

I'm alone on Anya now, I guess this isn't going anywhere.

At best: Evil
At worst: Town with a bunch of multiball scum who want to play with their food

I didn't really decide which, I think the people who won't commit look far worse regardless of what he flips

If that ever fucking happens

I imagine there would be votes hopping on and off the wagon from scum regardless of whether MC is town, but does anything about how it's being done inform MC's alignment? I get that you want to end day and get more info from an elim but I don't want to vote someone I think is town.

[Dwlee99]

{Anya, Pooky, Shiro, Raya, <Kaz? A lurker?>}

Flow and Andante got themselves off my list for now.

[Dwlee99]

Suck it up buttercup

Maybe have faith in the direction of the town instead of trying to force your own personal agenda

It's a motherfucking team game, you can claim injustice the next day

In fact that would probably be good! I want to get information, the necessity to be absolutely right on D1 has plagued newmeta and gives scum excuse to not commit

I believe that with all my heart

So you're saying that even if I was 99% sure Murdercat is town I should go along with this because it's a team game? Part of team games is people telling each other when they're making a mistake.

[Dwlee99]

OK I'm here permanently

VOTE: Titus

I need to wind down anyways, but I admit a lot of my constant posting is fear of falling behind

That has become such a necessity that really bothers me, because I don't like this posting much

I'm malding at this.

[Dwlee99]

If MC was jester he could have self-hammered at E-1. Go all the way to deadline is stupid but it doesn't mean vote town off for fun.

[Dwlee99]

I don't think beeboy replacing out is alignment indicative and it's been gone over so many times that I'm starting to think the people who keep saying it is don't really care if what they're saying is true or not.

[Dwlee99]

If given the ultimate choice i'd execute Flow Trap atm. I feel they have highest chance of flipping scum in all of my reads.

I have a 100% chance of flipping town if you shoot me day 1

another crap flow trap post

Flow should sort itself out.

Yeah, I’m not exactly thrilled with MCs iso. I’m gonna wait though to hammer.

Just do it, no point in waiting. Not gunna turn around so far into D1

also this is the same defeatist attitude MURDERCAT had in Team Mafia as scum

also this is the same defeatist attitude MURDERCAT had in Team Mafia as scum

I was town LMAO

Does anyone know who is right? I'm having trouble finding it in the ISOs.

[Dwlee99]

Okay do you have a link to the game? Typically I hate meta but I want to read town!cat's reaction to being run up.

[Dwlee99]

In the meantime I want MC's explanation of his read on Cakez.

[Dwlee99]

I think MC's reaction is similar enough to team mafia here.

[Dwlee99]

If you're telling the truth about investigating Kaz, my guess at how your role might have worked seems to be completely wrong.

[Dwlee99]

I'll be here later after I finish and submit my last homework of the semester. Gonna try to look at vote counts with nero + unwnd colored green once I'm back.

[Dwlee99]

I think I may have taken flow's friendly neighbor claim too seriously yesterday, which is why I said the slot will sort itself. MC's case is convincing and mixed with the fact I already didn't like Flow's posting I'm fine sheeping here.

VOTE: Flow Trap

[Dwlee99]

I'm not sure if I someone already said it but looking at the VCs that I have colored, 1.29 -> 1.30 shows Fire and Flow hop onto the Titus/Beeboy slot and then in 1.31 MC, Anya, and Brave Heart jump on as well. I think Flow's votes look opportunistic to hop around and get people off Norwe + the norwe voting flow towards the end + flow voting for Norwe then unvoting dubiously seems to point towards scum!flow.

I'm BP Friendly neighbor lol

I took this as a joke

I think it is now too but at the time I was really just taking it at face value.

[Dwlee99]

Are we going to do the billions of competing wagons thing again. I feel like it's less fun without unwnd to be mad about it.

[Dwlee99]

Oh, I missed that.
VOTE: Andante

[Dwlee99]

Is it a slip that Titus keeps saying Anya.

[Dwlee99]

Okay nvm you're tired and so am I.

[Dwlee99]

Titus, I agree that the beeboy metaread was shit but also why don't you ever interact with me and also you claimed alien cop when it really does not seem like there are aliens. Red herring? Maybe. But now the person defending you hardest is confirmed dog.

[Dwlee99]

Titus, I agree that the beeboy metaread was shit but also why don't you ever interact with me and also you claimed alien cop when it really does not seem like there are aliens. Red herring? Maybe. But now the person defending you hardest is confirmed dog.

I'm aware of this.

You haven't done anything aside from defend me and push on similar wagons. I have joined you yesterday but my presence made things die.

Okay fair enough on not interacting with me. Do you think there are actually aliens?

[Dwlee99]

I don't get why aliens would let you get a check off though. Shea is TSQ btw, the mod.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Andante

There ya go cakez

[Dwlee99]

Now I'm actually sus of Dwlee

see ya tomorrow pals

VOTE: Andante

There ya go cakez

you got me excited

Spoiler: gif

[Dwlee99]

Wait, kaz actually hammered. That's really doing a little trolling.

[Dwlee99]

I'm sus of you because your role pm has your name in red.

[Dwlee99]

Haha the joke is that Dwlee is already on the Andante wagon, so you can only hammer if you're off it.

VOTE: Andante whoops my finger slipped

Thanks buddy

I think you're town but this just reminds me of a time beeboy's first post in a game was saying "good wagon scum buddy!" to his actual mafia buddy.

[Dwlee99]

Ggs
Thanks for hosting! Wish I got to play for more of it.

[Dwlee99]

You should make me bulletproof next time

[Dwlee99]

That said, there was a level of apathy in this game that I don't think I've encountered before in any games I've modded (including multiball) I don't think town tried very hard, and I think that they had a defeatist attitude of "oh, well, theres lots of scum and we don't have agency" which they used as an excuse and honestly I found that extremely disappointing.

It wasn't an excuse for apathy. It was the cause of apathy. In a game where you can execute scum every day and still lose (by a large margin!), correctly identifying town is actively harmful, and town can control about 20% of the total deaths, it's pretty hard to feel like more effort would produce a better result.

Assuming no cross kills and perfect day-play (ie, killing rats, then cats, then dogs in order) town loses by one person. But also there were 5 cross-kills this game.

[Dwlee99]

I don't say the above because I completely disagree, either. I find multiball frustrating as scum because it meant that me being widely townread was actually a hindrance, while the scum that lived longer seemed to be in everyone's scum pools. It's also frustrating as town to know there is less agency than normal, but I think this game was still reasonably winnable for town and there was a lot of agency there to eliminate the right people.

To expand on the agency point: I find that a lack of agency kind of nails a lot of the frustrations with these kinds of games. Once I was dead I was bothered, for instance, that there were two dog cops and a dog doctor and we were all goons. Dog faction had three forced night kills as a result of that (maybe two if we had picked up on Fark's obvious crumb, but still). I just finished a mini as mafia where there were practically three forced night kills in a row and that also felt awful. (Investigative got bodyguarded, killed investigative, then there was a conf town)

I don't know if there's really a solution to that, or if it's just part of mafia. I mean, there will kind of always be force kills if there is an investigative role. And in multiball, town won't control all of the kills. I don't really have an end to this thought as I'm kind of just rambling, but lack of agency is frustrating, yes, but I also think part of playing mafia is trying to ward off apathy despite that feeling.

[Dwlee99]

that's part of the challenge of playing multi-ball.

It's more like survivor than it is like mafia.

you have to be able to find the middle where you don't get elimmed and you don't get shot >.>

"That's exactly where scum would hide! Night kill them" is how I see this playing out.