UK Eastermeet 2022 Invitational (Game over!)

[Fenchurch]

Post #4 is everything thank you CDB, it was worth joining the game just for the enjoyment I got out of that.

Just to let you all know I thought my role is a bit dubious and if I have to claim I'm not sure it will be believed? Although now I've read the intro to the game perhaps that's not such a worry.

Hi Nexus!!

[Fenchurch]

Given that the potato mechanic is clearly what everyone wants to talk about, and is the most important thing in the game right now, I am happy to state that I would give away my potato if I find a suitable recipient.

Why would you give away your potato? What would make someone a suitable recipient?

You know that nobody benefits here from having more than 1 potato right? So the only reason to give away your potato is in order to voluntarily execute yourself, and the only reason to do that is if you are on the block for actual execution, to give the town access to extra executions. Not that it worked out great for us last time?

Not sure I trust Cpol or Primate. Everyone else is neutral right now.

[Fenchurch]

Day 1 quickguess: evil team is Primate and Bella, Cpol cult something.

[Fenchurch]

do you think scum!primate would give me the opportunity to kill his scumbuddy that quickly? super risky. also I think the scumteam is flavoured as a cult because of the whodunnit, but like, without recruits

Yeah I agree it's pretty unlikely but I wanted to throw it out there. It might seem like a risky play but I think it's actually safer to get nominated earlier rather than later, because most people aren't gonna go ahead with an execution that quickly, and if you don't support it then Bella becomes safe for the rest of the day.

Kinda like Menno right now but I'm also easily swayed

[Fenchurch]

@Cerys, CES - what are your reads on each other?

Initially leaning scum; now leaning town. I tend to gut scum-read CES just for playstyle, and at first his vote on Bella struck me as reachy. But his push to make use of the potatoes is pro-town and overall I think his subsequent reasoning reads town to me.

Don't blindly follow my read though, familiarity doesn't make me reliable and I don't have a good track record of correctly reading CES

[Fenchurch]

Your beloved moderator has been compromised to a permanent end. This seems like the work of a cult, so you're probably looking for multiple killers. Better get on that.

This screams scum with information that there are multiple teams out there. Yes there was cult at the meet. They weren't actually recruiting though and this whole confusion about whether or not there was recruitment really didn't help with figuring out what was going on with the whodunnit.

I was going based on the wording in CDB's opening post. Reading back though, I guess it is just saying 'the scum team has multiple people in it (like the whodunnit)'. But I had originally read 'multiple killers' to mean 'this game has multiple evil factions'.

I read Nexus' pocketing comment the same way you read cpol; that's just the kind of thing Nexus says, as town or scum. Although my gut read is more town on Nexus and more scum on cpol.

VOTE: cpol

[Fenchurch]

Current scumteam guess: Cpol and Takuma

I personally believe that the potatoes can be pro-town. I think having access to multiple executions is a net benefit, even on D1.

However, I think town should only be prepared to give up their potato if they are otherwise going to be executed, to allow for more executions.

I think cpol is suspicious for

immediately

offering to give up his potato 'to the right person'. In the original potato game, Menno immediately gave away one of their potatoes and I called them town for it for the rest of the game. Fool me once, etc...

Takuma is my second pick for scum for hardly engaging with the game apart from to complain about potatoes.

Bella is a neutral read for me, so I'm not really opposed to her execution. Nexus still seems town. Myko is neutral-leaning-scum.

[Fenchurch]

but I

was

town in that game...

Wait, really...?

Who was the scum?

Was it me???

[Fenchurch]

Huh, woops. Maybe I gotta rethink my whole perspective on potatoes...

Although instinctively I still think Chris' offer here to give his up is irrational and therefore scummy.

[Fenchurch]

That doesn't sound right to me? I definitely would've accepted a potato...

[Fenchurch]

Oh gee... I wasn't expecting that! My initial instinct is to pass it right back haha Personally I don't think a potato stealer is likely so I'm not worried about needing more than one potato. But I'm going to think about it because I don't want to miss the chance to get extra executions.

The "therefore" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

Sure, I think I'm being open in my reasoning. If I'd just said 'Chris' offer is scummy' would you have questioned it? Townies do make irrational plays, but scum have to deduce what the appropriate townie response to any situation is, and so any action that doesn't seem a natural one for a townie to make is one that is more likely to be coming from scum.

[Fenchurch]

Cpol, you're alive! Hooray! I was so sorry that I hadn't given your potato back. Even though getting an extra execution from the day phase was what I had originally wanted. But Menu's decision to quickhammer made it pretty clear that you must be town.

It seems like Myko was the person who could use the cockroach poker cards. I'm guessing he could send one to a player, and depending on whether they guess the card correctly, either they die or he dies? Could they can even send the card along like in cockroach poker???

Anyway... since Menno claimed scum....

VOTE: Menno

[Fenchurch]

Takuma seems an odd choice of night kill in that case... my read on them was leaning scum.

[Fenchurch]

Wait

??????????

VOTE: cpol

Cpol was given a potato in the night. It's not that he survived without one.

[Fenchurch]

Oh, what's this? During the Night, cpol gained a potato.

[Fenchurch]

Fenchurch, you're absolutely the next execution after cpol

Errr what? Pretty sure Cpol is close to conf-town now, and I've no idea why you'd peg me for an execution over Menno.

Edited for term replacement - CDB

[Fenchurch]

Menno claimed scum?

What other interpretation did you have of their quick hammer the instant Cpol gave up his potato?

[Fenchurch]

Yes, that's why you're both scum

Huh? I'm really not following you on this...

[Fenchurch]

Yes, that's why you're both scum

Oh, I guess your explanation is that I had a second potato, so I must have given it to Cpol to hide the fact that scum-Cpol wouldn't die without eating a potato.

But that doesn't make sense for so many reasons. Why would Cpol give up his potato in that situation? And by what means would I give it back?

Do you remember in the game at the meet, there was a potato vendor? I'm pretty sure that is how Cpol gained a potato. It wasn't my second potato; I didn't give it to him.

Back to executing Menno and searching for their scum buddy, please.

[Fenchurch]

Okay: are you a town potato vendor?

No. I am town, but I'm not a potato vendor, and I didn't give Cpol a potato in the night.

[Fenchurch]

Okay I thought that end of Day 1 was pretty crystal clear, but since apparently not everyone shares my perspective I'll explain why I came into this day considering Cpol to be conf-town and Menno to be conf-scum.

The hammer was suuuuuuuuuuper scummy. Like I see less than 1% chance of that play coming from town. It ended the day early and with one player not even having posted. As well as what Porochaz has pointed out, that Menno had given no indication that it was coming, and had said they would give warning.

So why out yourself as scum like that? To me it seemed that the trigger must have been Cpol giving me his potato. If Cpol is town, scum-Menno saw an opportunity to get an execution on town-Bella and assumed that town-Cpol would also die. 2 town kills for 1 scum... and there is a chance that Menno can still talk themselves out of it because apparently not everyone sees it the way I did.

And Postie, I do see the possibility of a town potato vendor. If multiple people gave up their potatoes I could imagine by the end of the Day some of them might seem worth saving; at any rate as a weak power I could imagine it sitting with town or scum. What alignment was the role in the original Wereleg game?

[Fenchurch]

Also ffs this isn't about potatos it's about the fact someone *stopped an execution from happening*

To add: the reason why I can see it as either town or scum is because whoever holding the role gets to use it in accordance with their alignment. If they are town, they try and save someone who they think is town. If they are scum, they try to use it to try and help achieve a scum win.

It's like consul-maker. The role itself isn't exactly pro-town, because it denies the town control over executions. It could be a role held by town (or to scum), and the person with the role will use it in accordance with their alignment.

[Fenchurch]

There is also the chance that Meno is a Tanner or something of course. Were there any meme-y One Night Ultimate Werewolf games that were played that could mean it's a role that's included?

Is Tanner the same as Jester - the role that wants to get themselves executed? I don't think CDB would ever put that in a game because it's too difficult for town to play around when you don't know it's there. In a regular game it feels like a bit of a bait-and-switch if you're trying to execute the scummy people, but also, you might lose if you execute the scummy people. It's never been included in the Greater Idea deck.

[Fenchurch]

I’m interested too, and I don’t really see you as a buddy with Menno. I find it unlikely that you’d argue against their execution so strongly if you were. But I’m still looking at who the buddy is, and I do find your position hard to understand..

You seem to agree that Menno’s sudden quick hammer makes them very likely scum. You also seem to agree that the quick hammer was likely driven by a desire to catch Cpol without a potato and get an extra kill as a result.

I’m not sure then how you are so convinced that whoever subsequently saved Cpol from potato-death, must be scum. If you can see Menno as scum, how do you not conclude that Cpol is town?

[Fenchurch]

Give it back, then, Fenchurch.

Given you are voting Cpol, why do you want them to have their potato back?

Nexus - this struck me as contradictory as well and I don't think you had the chance to answer before the Day ended. What would your answer have been?

[Fenchurch]

No, but Klick is saying that if nobody claims it then he'll assume cpol is scum who received a potato from his scum buddy.

Menno, since you've already claimed VT, would you please claim the other part of your role as well - your role name, if you have one?

[Fenchurch]

Oh haha - well that checks out at least.

[Fenchurch]

Could be a scum role; doesn't really sound like a potato vendor.

It's true that if it turns out scum gave Cpol the potato then my current narrative doesn't fit so well. Not sure what to make of things if that is the case... will see if necessary first. I find it really hard to see Menno as not scum.

[Fenchurch]

And - we'll make an effort to do karaoke next time

[Fenchurch]

Duplicate post - CDB

[Fenchurch]

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as scum potato vendor = cpolscum, so I don't see any need to rush it.

But wouldn't it make Menno-scum much less likely? If Menno-scum's goal was to get an extra kill by timing the execution when cpol had no potato, why would the scum team then decide to save cpol?

[Fenchurch]

I did not give cpol a potato. 1/10

There are already 5 people who have indicated they didn't do it, but of the remaining 5 I don't know how many are on board with confirming.

[Fenchurch]

I disagree. I still think Menno is most likely scum, and I think their play today fits completely with what scum do in that situation. Mostly low effort, self voting minimises interactions and shortens the Day.

My read on CES is still neutral, he could be scum but his call for a hammer doesn’t mean anything, he does that as town or scum. And I think it’s reasonable to be concerned about losing momentum on Menno. But I’d like him to answer my question about the potato issue.

[Fenchurch]

because I wanted you to give the potato back so as I could get a read on you.

I'm not sure I follow this. Do you mean if I had given the potato back then you would have gotten a read on me? Since I didn't do that, are you unable to form a read?

And that still doesn't really answer the point of the question. At the time, did you want Cpol to be executed, and if so, why did you want me to give the potato back?

vote Wenna

I'd like you to contribute more.

lol

[Fenchurch]

Okay, well what do you think about cpol right now? And Menno? I feel like I have an idea of most people's stance but yours.

[Fenchurch]

oh and my reasoning for hammering at the time was that the vibes were off

I decided if I didn't like her next post I would execute and I didn't

Why wait three days to share this?
Why self vote?

[Fenchurch]

I'd pretty happily vote CES

What happened to 'if nobody claims the potato then Cpol has to die'?

[Fenchurch]

I don't think menno is scum.

At the start of the Day you asked me why I was voting Menno. Did you have any thoughts about the quick hammer at all?
And you've answered half my question, what about cpol right now?

[Fenchurch]

"Nothing" as in, nothing came of it so you're dropping it? Or "nothing" as in, nothing has changed and you still think Chris is 100% scum?

[Fenchurch]

I'm very concerned how multiple people are backing off Menno all at once.

I’m also bothered by people backing off Menno. I still think Menno is 90% likely scum for the quick hammer. The contrition and explanation hasn't changed that for me and only came after people have pushed for it. Overall I think Menno's play is exactly like scum who judged (rightly or wrongly) that that quickhammer would be in their favour and was worth eating an execution for.

Hey so do you see any town potato vendor claims yet

No, but there are a few players who haven't claimed either way, and like CES, I think it is plausible for a town potato vendor not to claim, or for a scum potato vendor to give town-Cpol a potato. My main issue with the Cpol-scum theory is that I still struggle to see why Cpol would be so eager to give his potato away in the first place, knowing it could confirm him as scum? I can come up with theories but none of them seem very plausible.

For me the strongest theory is still that Menno is scum, and I think that is the best execution for Today.

[Fenchurch]

I don’t get any scum vibes from CES, probably because I fully agree with his reads and his push for Menno.

I’m actually not sure how you land on CES and not me, because if anything I’d say his reasoning has been clearer than mine. The vibes I get from this are the same as CES being wrongly executed in the final day of our last Team Mafia game.

Klick, your re-read has: ‘Menno seems town early D1’ (sure, I felt the same) and then skips straight past the quickhammer as far as I can tell. I don’t get how most of you are willing to just bypass that. To me it was such a clear scum play.

Same for you Nexus. You’ve said you don’t think Menno is scum and that’s all. Elaborate please.

[Fenchurch]

Thanks Postie for asking that question and Cpol for answering... I didn't realise until now that I had been bothered by the same contradiction. To my mind the purpose of the potatoes is to push for a bonus kill on someone you think is scummy; not to volunteer for your own death. But it sounds like you did have some rational reasons for doing it. I feel better about both of you right now tbh.

Like everyone is saying I'm not keen on some of the lurkers - Nexus hasn't barely posted anything game relevant for the past week - but I know he probably has real life things to attend to. Wenna is super wishy-washy and reluctant to commit to saying that anyone is more likely scum than anyone else. I don't remember Wenna being so resistant to taking a stance before, and not sure what to make of it, whether it is just from the transition to forum or more than that.

But my feelings on Menno are the same and I still think they are by far the best execution for the day. Yes their play was probably bad as either alignment, but I think it all makes more sense coming from scum than as town.

[Fenchurch]

Well, that's a shame.

I didn't find Klick especially town so that's helpful, but it's a shame to lose our cheese maker.

Kinda stumped now. Everyone who was on that wagon has done things that I find town... CES' thoughts around Menno which matched mine; Postie's reactions and questions to Cpol; Primate's gutsy driving activity at the start of D1; Cpol's explanation of his thought process around giving the potato away.

Wenna and Nexus have both done very little that makes them seem like town. Oh and Poro too. But I don't know whether it's likely that both scum stayed off that wagon.

Actually my gut scum read now is Nexus. If the night kill think that Klick looked the most town then they probably think that CES looks the most scummy.

VOTE: Nexus

[Fenchurch]

And why it doesn't lead you to a CES scumread

I don't have a CES scumread simply because I agreed with all his thoughts and approach on Menno. I haven't seen any explanation for what makes him scummy apart from him gunning for Menno, which I was doing to.

And I'm sorry to have been wrong there but based on my experiences playing forum mafia to date I expected Menno to have a high chance of flipping scum.

Sure, if you think CES might be scum then the Klick-kill fits that. I don't think CES is likely scum so I'm looking for a player who I do find scummy and who fits the kill, and I end up on Nexus.

[Fenchurch]

Stating that you think Klick didn't look town is also kinda crazy now. Especially given how yesterday played out. I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion at the start of today.

I don't see being correct the same as being town. To me it was perfectly reasonable to find Menno scummy, because I

did

. If anything, scum having full knowledge of the game means that they can be awkward about getting on the obvious wagon when they know it's really town.

Not saying that's necessarily the case either; scum could be on or off the wagon. To me the only way of figuring them out is whether their approach to it made sense and seemed 'real'.

Nexus has provided almost no reasoning for any of his real all game and that's why he's my current vote.

[Fenchurch]

Given that Menno flipped town, the chances of Klick being scum were super low

I actually don't follow that - what made Klick more town to you after Menno flipped scum?

[Fenchurch]

I don't know about Nexus, but I was willing to vote for a player that I did not want to execute (Menno, for reasons quoted above) just to ensure town got a kill.

I'm not saying this is nothing, but I'm sure how you are suggesting that I should find you equally town, compared with people who gave more in the way of reasoned deductions, and pushed for an execution to happen in the first place.

[Fenchurch]

I'll flip that round - why would you not have thought they were?

Mainly because I thought his reads were weird and he wasn't very forthcoming.

And I already said that I don't see being correct on Menno as a town-tell, because to me the natural town thing to do was to scum-read Menno.

So now will you tell me why you think it made him more obviously town? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm genuinely interested, maybe I'm missing some deduction here.

[Fenchurch]

Because I'd stated that I was going to hammer Menno, and Klick was the first person to unvote to stop that happening. The Menno push wasn't even getting derailed at this point. Why would scum!Klick ever do that?

Ah okay yeah that makes sense. Although that behaviour is possible as scum because they recognise that the wagon is gonna come under fire after Menno flips town so they make sure not to be on it. But it's true this doesn't really look like that.

I'm still not feeling the case for CES as scum though. It seems like it hinges on a supposed misrepresentation of Menno's behaviour, because Klick saw it as more plausibly town. But Yesterday I

felt

the same as CES; that if they were town they would surely have played it differently, offered clearer explanations, more contrition, refrained from self-voting. And overall the quick-hammer on Bella far outweighed anything else.

[Fenchurch]

And yet, all signs point to the contrary...

[Fenchurch]

I'm just kidding, I actually think you have this kind of trolling play style as town and scum. But you know... process of elimination...

For the record, my first instinct was Fenchurch+Wenna . . . but I figured that did make the obvious consulmaker if scum ever bother to think about it

Did you also consider that I sometimes find your play-style very suspicious, and might be inclined to execute you as Consul?

What is the reason that you wanted to avoid scum figuring you out as the Consulmaker, given that your role is only active N0, and doesn't confirm your alignment as town.

[Fenchurch]

Nexus

- what is it that makes you unvote? The claim is believable, but surely Consul-maker fits just as easily as a scum role.

Wenna

- that's a lot of general description without anything specific. CES even said he was most interested in how you see me as 'twisting' but you only specify Postie in your response. What is it that puts me at the top of your suspicions?

Everyone

- I've just been thinking, in a 13 player game is it most likely that we have a 3-person scum team? In which case, if we wrongly execute today then we lose. Should we massclaim - popcorn from CES?

[Fenchurch]

Okay - apologies, I honestly didn’t realise that. If the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs are about me, can you give some examples from the game? Where did you feel that I’ve presented a different view to what I’ve really felt?

[Fenchurch]

I am

Titus

, the powerful yet doomed gladiator from the murder mystery… I’m a VT. My initial reaction, that I mentioned in my first post, is that this doesn’t seem believable because Titus doesn’t sound like a VT. But then all the VT flips have been slightly wacky stuff so…:shrug:

Popcorn to Primate.

[Fenchurch]

Well it confirms that the potato vendor is scum, and in that case, why did they save Cpol? I can't quite make sense of it either way. If Cpol is town, surely they benefit from letting him die? The only reason to save him is if they are intending to claim town potato vendor, which they have not done.

Then again, Cpol is scum, then why give his potato away in the first place? I guess it could have been a gambit whereby he either thought he would get it back and/or that the whole action would reflect more positively.

Overall, it does make me slightly more suspicious of Cpol.

CES

- you said you thought it was reasonable for a scum-potato to save town-Cpol. Can you explain why?

This does mean candles are a scum mechanic, which is probably good for CES.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about the candles. What is the connection to CES?

Is there a chance that they are meant to represent the number of town currently alive?! We started with 10, then 3 went out the first night - which matched 3 deaths. Then 1 went out the second night after there had been 2 deaths. Could it mean that Menno was actually scum?? That is me stretching... I think CDB is unlikely to put fake-reveal stuff like that in a game.

[Fenchurch]

Summary of the claims

Dead:

Bellaphant - TOWN MAYOR ‘the mayor from BOTC’
mykonian - TOWN BLUFFING VIG, ‘cockroach poker player’
Takuma - TOWN BLACKMAILING INVENTORMAKER, ‘trader livinius’
McMenno - TOWN VT 'the karaoke that didn't happen'
Klick - TOWN INVENTOR, ‘making things out of cheese’

Alive:

cpol - VT, Eight people watching one game of hive
CES - Consul-maker, the people who saw us dressed as romans
Wenna - VT, McMenno Lying Dead in the Corridor for Half an Hour
Nexus - VT, The whodunnit yarn wall
Fenchurch - VT, Titus the gladiator
Primate - VT, A mandarin covered in sellotape
Porochaz - VT, Bernhard Piemann
Postie - Non-ambulating Jailkeeper, Baby Izzy

To answer the question about the reinforced mandarin, we made to play catch outside after the barbecue... for about 2 minutes until it rolled into an unreachable space under the decking.

Who is Bernhard Piemann?

[Fenchurch]

Surely you can't have expected a town potato vendor to suddenly come forward now, can you?

Why not? I would. If you're town, then it was perfectly reasonable to protect you.

Further, it's generally bad play for town to lie about their role because it makes it harder for us to figure out whether scum are sitting in the VTs or the power claims.

If we believe CES and Postie's claims, then the set up would look something like:

Town

Mayor
Bluffing vig
Blackmailing inventormaker
Inventor
Consul-maker
Non-ambulating Jailkeeper
VT
VT
VT
VT

Scum

Potato vendor
Something to do with candles?
?

I am inclined to believe Postie's claim as town, but the Consul-maker I could still see as town or scum.

If you think the potato vendor is scum (which you seem to, with your accusation of Primate) can you explain why they protected you?

[Fenchurch]

My current guess for scum team is Wenna, Porochaz, and one of Cpol or CES.

[Fenchurch]

I was willing to let it lie on D2 because I felt there was a reasonable chance the town potato vendor didn't want to claim at that point (for example, perhaps like CES not wanting to confirm that he was a 'defunct' role). Now that it's definitely a scum potato vendor, it makes me more strongly consider whether the whole thing was a scum gambit on your part that didn't play out how you had intended. So if you have a different perspective that would be helpful to hear.

[Fenchurch]

Nexus - what is it that makes you unvote? The claim is believable, but surely Consul-maker fits just as easily as a scum role.

Nexus

- still interested in your answer to this question.

do you think I've played scummy? I can at least defend that.

If I judge you based purely on play I think you're town, but overall my judgement is on everything, mechanics included. Sorry if there's not much you can do that.

Based on play I have Cpol, Postie and CES as town. Nexus and Poro and Primate as null. Wenna as scummy. But it'd be rare if all the players I think are scummy are actually scum, and mechanics makes me feel that it might be one of Cpol or CES from the 'top'.

So this seems like you've kinda flipped your reads on their head, and I'd appreciate some explanation?

Not sure they're flipped on their head. I guess something in the claims has put Nexus a bit higher for me and you a bit lower, but there's not a lot in it. Nexus just feels very lurky and I could buy him playing this way as town or scum.

Wenna was null, and I had been giving her a lot of benefit of the doubt because of how she said the transition to forum mafia has been a tricky. But now she's shared more of her thoughts I just think... there are so many things in there that don't seem to make any sense. For instance...

Overall: odd little teaming up/facing off between the three of you.

This is after I've spent half Day 2 disagreeing with Postie about Cpol being more likely scum or town, and the other half saying that I agree with everything that CES is saying.

And if we're at the point in the game where 3 out of 7 players are scum, then it just seems most likely that Wenna is.

[Fenchurch]

Can you give examples of Fenchurch twisting? Preferably the A to B to C type of twisting.

This (?)

Thanks Postie for asking that question and Cpol for answering... I didn't realise until now that I had been bothered by the same contradiction.

I felt like the questions lead to answers Fenchurch knew all along, and wanted to draw from the others. By stating half ideas and then asking leading questions. I imagined Fenchurch having more fully formed thoughts and steering people. It was the Postie/Fenchurch in the beginning that triggered this viewpoint.

But then if I imagine Fenchurch saying this IRL, it seems much more ordinary: gives idea, pushes for your idea [repeat].

Here Wenna finally gets to something specific about me and... I just don't even understand what about it makes me scum. What half-idea did I state, what leading question?

I

had

been bothered about Cpol giving the potato away, because I don't think it makes any sense to do as town when under so little pressure. Postie being bothered about it too made me feel good about them. Cpol's answer was better than I expected, and made me feel good about him. I said all this at the time. I didn't make Postie to ask the question, I just commented on it.

[Fenchurch]

Nexus

- what is your read on Wenna?

You say you're disengaged from the game because you are a VT. Am I right in thinking you dislike playing scum? Would that also make you disengaged from the game?

[Fenchurch]

It's possibly because I've not been as invested and it's hypocritical for me to say, but the town generally seems a bit lazy.

As someone who

is

invested, feels disappointed that we've had 2 town executions, sad that I was wrong on Menno, frustrated that we might be cruising to a loss... yes, it is hypocritical

[Fenchurch]

Actually I don't really feel we might be cruising to a loss. It's that even if we pick correctly today, presumably we can't make any more mistakes for the rest of the game.

That's

frustrating.

[Fenchurch]

I do get why you would do that if you geniunely thought they were scum, but given the result of the day I think it's scummy, especially because as scum it would be really easy for you to just decide that you think the quickhammer is super scummy and take it as written that menno is scum. A bit like the dogmatism you were doing d1 with the potatoes and cpol.

If it's worth anything, I think my tunnelling was influenced from my last team mafia game, where someone made a very suspicious claim (delayed arson vig) and floundered. I was hesitant and doubtful of whether scum would make such a scummy play. But it turned out they were just scum.

I'm sorry for being less prepared to consider the quick hammer as impulsive town. Although, I still don't know if I would do anything differently next time. Like Postie described yesterday... I would feel annoyed if I wrote that off and then lost because they actually were scum. You all may be much more astute than me, but I don't think I could ever have felt confident enough in discerning Menno's alignment outside from that action.

[Fenchurch]

And I still land on the fact that I can't see Nexus and Wenna together as a pairing.

Why not?

[Fenchurch]

Because I don't get any particularly strong scum vibes from either of them? Nexus in particular has been one of my top town reads for at least the last two in game days.

Huh... I guess we have totally different takes then. For Nexus, now and then he makes a comment that is relevant to the game but overall he doesn't describe any thought processes (like the switch from 'CES claim is good' to 'CES claim is probably scum') and he ignores more than half of the questions I ask him. I see none of his play as something he wouldn't do as scum.

[Fenchurch]

This is Shanba's cue to drop in and solve the game for us

[Fenchurch]

I don't think that's the right play now - CES needs to post why Nexus isn't town, otherwise I've just laid out the exact points he needs to counter right in front of him. I want to see CESs take first, then I'll counter.

I'm really not sure what magic you're expecting and personally I'd rather he doesn't try. CES already described it in 503... it's just a lack of towniness. You have lots of posts where it looks like you are trying to solve the game and figure people out, in a way that is hard to fake. Postie has this too. In my opinion, CES has this too. That's why I have you 3 as my town reads.

And it sounds like that's basically your approach, except you do see that towniness in Nexus' posts.

So I'm not sure how this can be resolved, which is why I'm pretty resigned to a loss here... sorry. The fact that we need all 5 town united in order to get a scum execution seems like an extremely high bar.

The narrative of this game, for me is:

1. Menno decided Bella was scum and suddenly executed her. Unfortunately, Menno was wrong.
   
2. For that mistake, I read Menno as scum and pushed for their execution. Unfortunately, I was wrong.
   
3. For that mistake, everyone now believes me to be scum. I guess I should appreciate the irony here... but I don't.

And I'm not sure a way past this so... I'm letting it go.

[Fenchurch]

For what it's worth, that's not me saying that I'm giving up. But I'm not going to pour my heart and soul into the game like I might once have done, and I'm going to accept that mafia is hard and it's okay to get it wrong.

[Fenchurch]

It made sense to me and I don't know if scum have daytalk or not (personally I assume they don't).

Cpol's vote put CES at E-1 right? So that is simple quick hammer range without scum even having to plan anything. I'd definitely be worried if I were town in that position.

In the second quote, CES is responding to Cpol's rationale that because CES hadn't yet been quick hammered whilst at E-2 then he must indeed be scum. But a two-scum quick hammer is much harder to arrange than a single vote.

[Fenchurch]

Why?

I dunno, just what I'm used to, and I assume is the default?

[Fenchurch]

I am not enjoying the fact that both of the players I have the strongest anti-town reads on seem to be defending each other and answering questions for each other, a lot.

I guess I just have had a similar mindset to CES for a lot of this game. Maybe from playing together and talking about the game over the years we've developed more of a similar approach, because I don't remember it being that way always. Or maybe it's just this game.

And I would normally avoid answering on someone else's behalf, but you were all busy playing Arkham last night and I kinda thought under the circumstances... what difference does it make.

[Fenchurch]

Well that's good, I'd prefer Wenna to Nexus.

VOTE: Wenna

[Fenchurch]

Were you waiting for someone else to vote for me, just in case I am executed, so when I flip town it seems less incriminating for you?

If you flip town then I expect the game to be very likely at an end

In the event that it isn't though, I'm not sure why you think I'd look better as the second vote rather than first.

[Fenchurch]

I, and I assume most town, were suspicious when cpol didn't die.

Well it seems I had a considerably different interpretation of the end of Day 1 compared to some.

I might have been suspicious if the Day had ended 'normally'. But it ended suddenly, with Menno dropping the hammer without warning, literally a few hours after Cpol gave away his potato.

My assumption at that moment was that scum-Menno must have been trying to gain an extra townie death by launching Night whilst Cpol had no potato. I spent the next few days feeling bad for having not given it back straight away.

When Cpol survived, I simply thought 'oh good, whoever had the ability to save Cpol did so, because Menno's action confirmed him as town'. I actually assumed at that point that

everyone

would be reading Menno as scum and Cpol as town, that's how sure I was about what had happened.

I'm pretty sure I've covered all this before. Although now I start to wonder, perhaps some people didn't have the same reaction to the end of the Day because they already knew Menno was town, so it would never occur to them that they were dropping the hammer in order to deliberately kill Cpol.

[Fenchurch]

I am kind of curious as to why you'd say this while voting nexus (and continuing to vote nexus and ask direct questions of nexus). You also have CES as a possibility here and not nexus, and if you wanted to vote ces you've had plenty of opportunity in the day.

I've been back and forth on Nexus throughout the Day. Sometimes I think he's almost certainly scum, other times I think he could be town. I never felt certain enough either way to move my vote, and there didn't seem a good reason to. And although I put CES and Cpol in there, I'm not prepared to vote for either. They were my weakest scum reads (through mechanics and not play); I want to vote for one of the more scummy scum.

But I like to guess a scum team now and then anyway, in case I'm right.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I went back through Day 2. I see more why people thought Klick seemed town. My current reads are:

Strong town: Cpol and Postie. Both have several moments where they seem super genuine and to be approaching the game from a town perspective.

Maybe town: CES and Primate. These players read like town to me, but because they both have a more measured playstyle, I'm less confident, and I could imagine either of them pulling this off as scum.

Scummy: Nexus, Wenna and Porochaz. None of these have done anything that seems clearly town to me, apart from having believable reasons for not engaging with the game. But when there are probably 3 scum out there, I'd be happy to vote any of these.

[Fenchurch]

What about me trying to save cpol (after Menno kill) by defending them by explaining why a baddy vendor would hand him a potato (repeatedly, including the first suggestion of the possibility, and trying to shut down useless potato talk [repeatedly instigated by you {amongst others}]), and then explaining my regret that I did not move my vote from Postie to CES which could potentially have saved Menno (who I read as town, and had also defended) because I did not predict Menno voting themselves, so since moved my vote to CES?

Neither of those things strike me as town, no. Your explanations for the potato don't make sense to me - why swap a guaranteed townie death into a potential execution? It's clearly a misplay if that was the intent, given that we haven't executed Cpol. So I'm still a bit bothered by the potato play, and I don't agree that speculating on it is 'useless' like you insist it is.

Your resistance to executing Menno is also not town to me. For one thing, having been right about Menno doesn't make me think a person is town; I thought Menno was scum and I am town. What's more important is the way you form reads, whether you seem to be trying to figure out the game from a town perspective. I don't get that sense from you.

[Fenchurch]

Oh sorry I just meant from fenchurch. I expected even just a one line dismissal but didn't even get that.

Apologies - your vote didn't seem that significant given everyone has already said they think I'm scummy, and nothing leapt out that would benefit from me responding.

Regarding the reads list that you apparently think is so bad: given that nearly half the remaining players are scum, I'm don't think it's odd that I see a lot of people as potential scum. Although I guess it sounds worse when you paraphrase it as 'probably scum' like you chose to do there.

I've explained the rationale between all of my reads, as well as who I actually want to execute.

2. Is no execution an option today?

I wondered that at some point, but I think we ought to have done it right at the start of the day if we were going to it wasn't until later that I realised we were at an even number.

[Fenchurch]

Oh I could have explained that better. If we were gonna no execute, it would have been best to have done it before giving reads, and definitely before mass claiming, so that scum had as little information as possible about the optimal kill was. If we do it now I think all that happens is we lose our towniest player - who we weren't going to execute anyway - and they are no longer able to influence the game. So now, I don't think it is a good play.

[Fenchurch]

Post #4 is everything thank you CDB, it was worth joining the game just for the enjoyment I got out of that.

Just to let you all know I thought my role is a bit dubious and if I have to claim I'm not sure it will be believed? Although now I've read the intro to the game perhaps that's not such a worry.

Hi Nexus!!

I am

Titus

, the powerful yet doomed gladiator from the murder mystery… I’m a VT. My initial reaction, that I mentioned in my first post, is that this doesn’t seem believable because Titus doesn’t sound like a VT. But then all the VT flips have been slightly wacky stuff so…:shrug:

Popcorn to Primate.

Given that you are a VT - what about post #4 led you to think that you claim would be more believed? Your second post does not align with your first here. There is nothing in #4 that explains at that point in time why Titus may be a VT.

Ah sorry I forgot that one Cpol. I’m not sure if you’ve mis-read or mis-written though. At the start of the game I said I thought my claim would

not

be believed. When I got my role my immediate reaction was: that’s weird, flavour-wise I would picture Titus as something like a vigilante, jailkeeper, or mafia strongman. So I imagined that when I claim Titus and VT people are gonna assume I’m lying. Basically I felt like I’d been given a sort of miller role.

Unless you are asking about the second sentence, where I said the intro to the game made me a little less worried? I think that was mainly the sample role PM, since it also had some detailed flavour but was a VT.

[Fenchurch]

Postie, Cpol: as my two town reads. You both seem sure that Wenna is town and CES is scum, so I’ll defer to your read and vote for CES. Also somewhat to absolve myself of responsibility, lol. I was wrong Yesterday, and right now I feel more confident in you being town than I do in Wenna being scum. I’ve been wrong so far this game and maybe I’m continuing to be wrong even now but I’m doing my best. And if town need to vote together, and if I am right in you being town, if I can’t persuade you on Wenna then there is no point being stubborn. I’ve also been reluctant to vote for CES because I don’t have any strong read on him and I know he’ll be annoyed if we lose the game by incorrectly executing him. But that is a pretty lousy reason to be hesitant, and also the risk we all take in playing this game.

VOTE: CES

If you want to execute someone else instead I’ll follow, and if you want to execute me then that is your prerogative, although would sadly be a town loss.

PEdit: even without knowing that you are town or scum, I take some kind of comfort in us being on the same wavelength <3

[Fenchurch]

Not sure, but you said your preferred execution is CES. We’ve got visitors this weekend so I’ve only been able to read the thread quickly, and someone said the deadline is tomorrow, so I’m basically trying to hand the decision and my vote to you.

[Fenchurch]

Well, that’s a shame. I was trying to feel less responsible for losing us the game, but I guess I just made it worse.

[Fenchurch]

Well done cultists! Even after my execution I had no clue who the real scum team were... this was my post-death message to CDB:

Even now I’m not sure who the scum is. My best guess would be Nexus, Porochaz and Wenna, in that order. But I still don’t know what was going on with Cpol and the potato. Oh well, unless Postie gets very lucky then presumably it’ll all be revealed soon. Unless there are any useful inventions out there??

Thank you so much for hosting the game CDB, you really did an amazing job of cramming so much of the meet into the game.

Apologies for losing heart on Day 3 and my other misplays. Truth be told, perhaps I shouldn't have joined the game, I don't think I have a disposition for reads-based mafia any more. I just don't feel good about accusing people of making stuff up, picking holes in arguments, etc, etc, and I haven't figured out a 'lighter' way to play. Maybe it was a bit easier when it games were with 'anonymous online people', but I know and like all of you and I didn't feel good about the prospect of incorrectly executing anyone, which is very difficult to avoid. And I think part of why I enjoy playing Blood on the Clocktower more now is because there is more focus on figuring the set up, and so accusations feel a bit less personal. Any of you who haven't tried it yet I would urge you to do so, if any of this matches your feelings.

Postie did a incredible job of fooling me with the obsession over Cpol's potato, and overall play just seeming super genuine. The claim just sealed the deal - well done to CES for coming up with Non-ambulating Jailkeeper, it really felt like it fit. Nexus did a great job of playing skating through and hardly bothering anyone. Knowing now that there was a traitor makes some of the scum hesitation around the mis-executions a lot more understandable!