Cosmos Mafia (Postgame)

[Radical Rat]

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: furtiveglance

Obviously Lunar is the superior cult, if we were to be in one

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: professotic

I can't really quantify it, but it feels like they're playing looking for someone to kill rather than looking for scum. Just the way they're engaging feels... Wrong.

[Radical Rat]

Mastina, where's the Korina read coming from? They've done literally nothing and are getting replaced, so I don't see how they can be anything but null

[Radical Rat]

Mastina is probably scum but it's not worth it

Radja is probably scum and it is worth it!

VOTE: Radja

I haven't actually read most of the thread yet, forgot how daunting Larges can be, BUT this stuck out to me skimming the last page.

What defines "worth it" here? Because it sure sounds like either mastina's your buddy, or you're trying to make us think she is.

Either way,
VOTE: T-Bone

[Radical Rat]

I don’t like this push.
It feels like you know you won’t be pushing us as a wagon further and is going to someone else.

You're not wrong, but also not for the reasons you're probably thinking.

I did ISO you earlier this morning, with the intent of forming a proper case, and found that I wasn't getting the same vibes I was when I made my vote. I was actually wondering if I might have mistaken you for someone else and voted the wrong slot, but haven't gotten around to doing that digging yet.

T-Bone's post just particularly stood out to me when I took a peek and I stand by my vote as of now.

[Radical Rat]

Mastina is probably scum but it's not worth it

Radja is probably scum and it is worth it!

VOTE: Radja

I haven't actually read most of the thread yet, forgot how daunting Larges can be, BUT this stuck out to me skimming the last page.

What defines "worth it" here? Because it sure sounds like either mastina's your buddy, or you're trying to make us think she is.

Either way,
VOTE: T-Bone

I define worth it, clearly.

Fair enough, so what is the definition you assign worth it?

[Radical Rat]

I'm still here, still haven't properly read. My less-busy section of week is approaching and I'll do a proper reading then, pinky swear.

For now though, rough instinct says MathBlade Town.

[Radical Rat]

I'm here, mostly prodging tbh.

Still haven't gotten around to reading properly, and I apologize for that, but I will say that based on just this page, MathBlade vs mastina is either TvT or two opposing scum factions.

It's hard for me to go into detail on, since I haven't actually... Read details.
But they do both seem genuinely convinced in pushing each other. It doesn't look manufactured from at least this bit of the argument.

As for which I personally think is the case... That'd require reading, which I WILL do... Eventually.

[Radical Rat]

Btw for obvious reasons, I didn't want to say this out loud, but fuckit, sure, why not.


Another reason (as if I needed more) that I think that MathBlade is scum is because of his role breadcrumbs.

Obviously, I could be wrong about what he's breadcrumbing.

But it looks to me like he's breadcrumbing a role that is basically my role.
Obviously, I could be off-base. Mistaken entirely about what role he is hinting to have.

But if I wasn’t phoneposting from work, I could pull up the post from him that looks to me like he's claiming my role.

Suffice to say, I have zero interest in claiming today (the NUMEROUS breadcrumbs I've given already should be plenty sufficient for when I do claim), but when I eventually do claim, I'll point out the MathBlade posts which made me think that he's trying to claim what's essentially my role.

By virtue of it BEING my role, naturally, I don’t think that him having it would be town. And this isn’t a case of mirror roles, either.

But for obvious reasons, I shouldn't elaborate further. Even this much is arguably too much.

Still haven't read, every time I try my brain just loses focus and I end up doing something else.

I do want to address this post though, because I think it's a big one. I said earlier the impression I got from the brief bit of mastina vs. MathBlade I saw was that they both believed what they were saying and were pushing in earnest, making them either both Town, or opposing scum factions.

And now mastina's saying she thinks MathBlade's role is her role.... And that sounds to me like opposing scum factions. Makes sense that with two scum groups, they'd each have similar abilities to balance each other. Whereas giving two Townies the same role is much less likely. And I can't imagine scum just HAPPENS to pick a fakeclaim in a Theme with nonstandard roles that matches a real role Town has.

I'm not voting again until I've read properly, but I would prefer Mastina first because even if she's wrong about MathBlade's role, I think this logic is coming from a scum perspective.

[Radical Rat]

Also with Rat too, to be fair, since it's a slot getting replaced

Excuse me???

[Radical Rat]

Well, I wasn't GOING to vote until I saw the rest of the thread, but.

VOTE: mastina

I don't know that I've played with you as scum before (unless you count Double Agency, but... Weird game, that.), but in my experience from other people this kind of attempt to bully the rest of the thread into submission by kicking and screaming you're Town and everyone else is idiots is usually scum.

And to be frank, regardless of alignment, I find the behavior unconscionable.

If you're Town, and you genuinely believe you have a massive solve D1 that just happens to be everyone suspicious of you... You should be elated to have all of the scum out themselves so they can be eliminated in your wake, not angry and belligerent.

[Radical Rat]

I'm either a Day 2 or Dusk 2 day vig.

Okay not my role but I don't believe that to be a town role; I think that's a scum role for one specific reason:

¤

Solar Cult and Lunar Cult

- These are the two scum factions.

They have nonstandard factional abilities

A D2 dayvig sounds a lot like a nonstandard factional ability to me!

This is ridiculous. You could make that argument for literally any role that isn't a nightkill...

Also since you were claiming to have the same role... This argument would also apply directly to you.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Radical Rat

For dodging questions. Other head free to change it, but I would like to put some pressure there first. Aisa believes

furtiveglance

started to enact his town meta so we would be moving this vote anyway.

~Greeting

I apologize, I still haven't really read the thread yet, I probably just missed the questions.

I'm trying to be more active in spite of not having read properly to avoid falling further behind though, so what questions did you have?

[Radical Rat]

I'm either a Day 2 or Dusk 2 day vig.

Okay not my role but I don't believe that to be a town role; I think that's a scum role for one specific reason:

¤

Solar Cult and Lunar Cult

- These are the two scum factions.

They have nonstandard factional abilities

A D2 dayvig sounds a lot like a nonstandard factional ability to me!

This is ridiculous. You could make that argument for literally any role that isn't a nightkill...

Also since you were claiming to have the same role... This argument would also apply directly to you.

Okay apparently I can't read and missed the part where you said it wasn't your role, disregard second sentence

[Radical Rat]

Plus, Math doesn't have a boon of being correct regarding who the scum are every time I played with them.

mastina is a very good Town player, yes. That doesn't mean she can't have rolled scum, and indeed the fact that she IS a good Town player makes me think she should really know better than to be pushing the way she is.

Some of this is tempered by business and mood, but stuff like pushing MathBlade for allegedly having the same role as her, based solely on crumbs, comes from a mindset of scum hunting other scum. And then when that turns out to NOT be the case, instead of admitting she was wrong, or even doubting the claim, she takes it at face value, and then decides it must be a factional ability somehow? It's just her doubling down and trying to force her way, not actual critical evaluation.

As Town, mastina should be worried about a mislim after seeing the assumptions she made were wrong. As scum, it doesn't really matter what MathBlade flips, so she doesn't have as much reason to reconsider.

[Radical Rat]

It sounds like perhaps you're putting too much pressure on yourself to be "like mastina"

People are complicated, and sometimes behave in ways that are contradictory. And your particular situation complicates things further, with the possibility that it may literally not be mastina driving things. None of that is inherently a bad thing though, and while I would contend that "giving up" as an abstract concept probably isn't great, taking in new information and acting accordingly isn't giving up, and it isn't compromising who you are.

Regardless of that though... I don't think it's true that mastina doesn't care about evidence and objectivity. She's definitely RESISTANT to being wrong, but I don't think it's near the extent you're saying here.

And if you are Town here, then I am truly, genuinely sorry for presuming to know you better than yourself, especially since I admittedly don't know you all that well, and only have my own personal impressions to go off of.

But I stand by everything I've said about scumreading you to this point, and unfortunately the high probability of you being scum makes it difficult to take what you have to say in good faith, even if I believe the emotional core is genuine (which I do, and I hope it gets better for you).

[Radical Rat]

Meta is trash!

[Radical Rat]

I still think mastina needs to be the elimination today.

I do not agree with T-Bone (p-edit: Or Yume) that MathBlade isn't getting killed tonight, or at least not that it's guaranteed he doesn't.

But more than that, I'm pretty damn sure we've caught scum, and I don't feel inclined to just let scum walk away on the gamble that we hit another scum instead. Though I do have an inkling of where I'd vote if I must...

Also worth consideration is that if we're right on mastina, and we flip her, we get semi-confirmation that it is six scum we're looking for, and that information is very valuable for hunting potential partners.

[Radical Rat]

I won't vote mastina unless my check on her flubs. Is that clear enough for all of you?

If this is a real claim/proposal, it is incredibly foolish.

This relies on both you and mastina living, AND no interference with your role, in a multiball game with wacky abilities.

It just isn't happening, and frankly the fact that you seem to think it will is highly concerning to me

[Radical Rat]

I won't vote mastina unless my check on her flubs. Is that clear enough for all of you?

Also

, if my check is blocked, I will assume scum did it and won't vote for her if that happens either

.

@RR, how is she not assuming interference?

There are more ways to interfere than just blocking. That aside, regardless of whether she has a plan to just interpret a block as an inno (which is... Not how that works, but I digress), the fact that she's publicly announcing this at all means she expects it to be able to go through unchallenged.

[Radical Rat]

Also just gonna say, I don't think scarf is Cult. A touch weird, sure, but the vibes say Town to me.

[Radical Rat]

Disagree? Give me a case where town roleblocker targeted someone who could clear someone as town.

How about the fact that if a scum roleblocker (or bus driver, redirector, jailkeeper, etc.) exists, they wouldn't let you get a guilty on them or their partner(s).

If you get no result on mastina, you have no result. Not an inno.

More likely outcome is you just die needlessly for claiming too early though

[Radical Rat]

No it is not

[Radical Rat]

I agree with the bad vibe

Radical Rat

expressed earlier about

professortic

and I think it's a genuine vibe (80).

I don't really understand the case on

T-Bone

though. I feel like he can be scumread for not contributing much to the game. To me, 151 and 152 sound like filler posts. But I do not see the associative read with

mastina

. Care to explain, @

RR

?

~Greeting

Oh about the mastina not being worth it thing?

Well, at the time it struck me as odd because in the absence of some kind of role information, I didn't see how one scum could be more "worth it" than another. So it looked to me like either partner distancing (expressing a scumread without following through is often a partner thing), or an attempt to look like partner distancing to set up a legacy mislim (seemed a bit too on the nose, but also sometimes scum are just like that).

However, I must admit, with the explosion and mess that this mastina wagon has wrought on the game, now I kinda get what T-Bone was saying. Probably would have been easier and more enjoyable to go after literally anyone else.

But we're here now, and she IS scum

[Radical Rat]

I agree with the bad vibe

Radical Rat

expressed earlier about

professortic

and I think it's a genuine vibe (80).

I don't really understand the case on

T-Bone

though. I feel like he can be scumread for not contributing much to the game. To me, 151 and 152 sound like filler posts. But I do not see the associative read with

mastina

. Care to explain, @

RR

?

~Greeting

I feel like RR and Bunny haven't interacted that much that could point to them being partnered.

That's

exactly

why they ARE (likely) partnered.

No seriously.

This is a multiball game.

"haven't interacted that much in ways that can point to them being partnered" is exactly what scum in multiball strive for.

Individually, I think both have decent odds for being scum;
Neither of them look like they're not scum with the other;
With neither as being a particular point of pressure, that kind of interaction suggests both scum together. Bunnyonce's vote on RR is fairly halfhearted especially given the wagon on me and no real effort from Bunnyonce to dismantle it. So the RR vote is fairly performative. Bunnyonce wasn't voting RR while there was a more competitive gamestate with multiple wagons, when RR votes had a chance to gain traction. Bunnyonce's vote on RR happened only after my elimination gained enough momentum to become almost an inevitabilitBree.

I haven't interacted much with a lot of people. We can't ALL be scum

[Radical Rat]

Why did it quote that again???

[Radical Rat]

Yume, I'm sorry, but you need to full claim, only leaving out the identity of the second person you can apparently check.

Because "A cop that isn't actually a cop and only works specifically on two people but isn't limited shot and also doesn't actually work at all in multiball" is... Really difficult to believe.

And not claiming the precise nature of this "check" isn't helping you, because the dangerous part of the claim (investigative claiming to target a high profile elimination candidate) is already out there.

Otherwise, I'm just gonna have to assume you're making this shit up as you go to protect mastina.

[Radical Rat]

If you actually have a compelling reason that your "check" will work, and can articulate why someone else is scum (aside from voting for mastina), then I will move my vote.

But right now, I don't believe you have that.

[Radical Rat]

I don't want to see mastina fall through here.

If we must, we must, but this really does look like a clear cut case to me, and moving seems to be mostly performative at this point

[Radical Rat]

That said, that does raise the question--why haven't you interacted much with a lot of people???

The Radical Rat I know does. Like, REALLY does. Like, really REALLY does. Like, does basically exclusively precisely that. Interacting with most, or even all, of the players in extensive detail.

So like--admitting that you haven't? Basically a scumclaim.

Well, for most of the game I hadn't been reading, which does put a bit of a damper on interactions. And that's just because I've been busy/low-energy, which happens sometimes regardless of alignment, especially in Larges.

That aside, I don't actually think this is true? I will generally interact when a post catches my interest, or when I am engaged with first. Sometimes that's a lot of people, sometimes it's not. I also have a known tunneling problem, and tend to let lurkers lurk longer than I should. And that all happens regardless of alignment.

All of that combined with me having a very limited time to read/post with a few hours in between each when there's another batch of pages that cropped up in the meantime... Yeah, I'm not interacting with people as much. If anything I might feel more obligated to at least pretend to as scum...

[Radical Rat]

Alright I am mostly caught up now.

Mastina's posting has improved exponentially, to the point where if the rest of the game hadn't happened, I'd probably be townreading her now. But the rest of the game did happen, and I already explained how the whole thing with MathBlade's role crumbs appears to be from a scum mindset (which isn't bullshit meta, just saying), and I still just can't reconcile that. Let alone whatever Yume's deal is.

FA is absolutely correct about all the multiball theory stuff, and it has felt a lot like people are forgetting this game is multiball, in particular with how that means meta tells don't mean shit when you're ideally just playing a towngame even as scum.

I will start looking at compromise wagons, there's not enough time left in the day to be stubborn about that, but I would still strongly urge those leaving mastina to come back.

I'll try to do a proper readslist after work, for my own benefit if no one else's, since right now my reads are pretty much all tangled around mastina in my head

[Radical Rat]

Would I be horribly out of line in thinking this looks kinda like Drapion going "Well, throwing a fit worked for mastina, maybe it'll save me too!"?

[Radical Rat]

Rough readslist, as promised. Not doing any proper ISO digging right now, but...

Spoiler:

Town
MMR

Townlean
Scarfmanship
Enchant
Frozen Ange
Ydrasse
T-Bone
Mathblade

Null
Dingle Dangle Scarecrow
Radja
Maid Cafe

Scumlean
Furtiveglance
Past Present Future
Yume
Bunnyonce

Scum
mastina
professotic

Not ordered within each tier, and isn't accounting for who's on which team, since I don't have a clear picture of that myself yet.
Pleasantly surprised that I wound up with about the correct number of scum though. I'd be willing to compromise on any of them if we're not doing mastina. Preference is obviously going to be professotic though, like. That is a tremendously overblown reaction for Town to have, and I am once again confused by someone claiming only the dangerous parts of their role without actually giving us the information to properly evaluate the claim.

[Radical Rat]

No serious though.
Give me the pin points on why I’m a wolf.

For me, the move off of mastina was weird for how strongly you'd been pushing her until that point, and it felt like you were just moving for the optics of it, which got me to raise an eyebrow, if not outright scumread you. And then a few votes on you later, you take your ball and go home instead of putting in any effort to either defend yourself or push back against someone else. Town should be able to deal with being voted without a meltdown, especially experienced Town. Of course it's frustrating, and sometimes that frustration shows, but regardless of your alignment, scum benefits far more from you giving up and refusing to play than Town does, and you've played this game long enough to know that.

[Radical Rat]

No serious though.
Give me the pin points on why I’m a wolf.

For me, the move off of mastina was weird for how strongly you'd been pushing her until that point, and it felt like you were just moving for the optics of it, which got me to raise an eyebrow, if not outright scumread you. And then a few votes on you later, you take your ball and go home instead of putting in any effort to either defend yourself or push back against someone else. Town should be able to deal with being voted without a meltdown, especially experienced Town. Of course it's frustrating, and sometimes that frustration shows, but regardless of your alignment, scum benefits far more from you giving up and refusing to play than Town does, and you've played this game long enough to know that.

I’ve explained that I moved cause Bunny kept on trying to push or join town CW’s. “Outright scum read me” clearly for not reading my fucking posts or being a wolf and your making shit up.
One of the damn two.
Also, I’m kinda ticked off that I became top wagon and received votes trying to help the town and y’all just don’t seem to care from my POV. I don’t feel like some of you are even making proper reads, maybe I’m being bias but honestly you guys need to give reasons that are actually AI. And make sure to know the difference between the two (AI/Not AI)

My wording is perhaps not clear, but I meant that I DIDN'T outright scumread you just from moving the vote. It wasn't until you ragequit that I did. I do understand your stated reason for moving, but from where I'm sitting there wasn't any real risk of any of those counterwagons going through, and you moving is what actually caused the mastina wagon to fall apart when it was what I saw (and still see) as the best chance of hitting scum today. It looked like you were trying to appease people more than actually hit scum, so it made me suspicious, but did not make me scumread you until your reaction to that suspicion from others was so incredibly disproportionate. In particular since you seemed to think the people pushing those counterwagons were scum, why would you not expect them to jump on you making such a target of yourself? If you're Town, scum voting you should come as neither a surprise nor an outrage, right?

[Radical Rat]

On a scale of 1-10
Prof and Mastina same team scum

1 = yes I agree 10000x times
5 = maybe
10 = omg math that’s even worse than anything you’ve ever suggested

10 is NOT agreeing?

7

It's a thought I myself have entertained, an elaborate gambit to get us to no lim, but realistically just doesn't make sense I think

[Radical Rat]

Well, for most of the game I hadn't been reading, which does put a bit of a damper on interactions. And that's just because I've been busy/low-energy, which happens sometimes regardless of alignment, especially in Larges.

Oh?

You say "I've been busy, which happens sometimes regardless of alignment".
Which player in the game have you put suspicion on for her when she was busy, in a way that put a damper on interactions?
(It's me.)

Color me skeptical about this being a valid excuse from you, when you're literally pushing me for doing the same thing you're now trying to use in your defense of yourself.

Okay but I'm not scumreading you FOR being busy. Not once have I ever even implied that.

I scumread you because the posts that you have actually made I think betray a scum mindset. Even the one where you announced giving up on being mastina, I made sure to draw a line between the emotions and stress you were expressing, to which I extended empathy and reassurance as best I could, and the point you were making about how it makes you Town, which I did not (and do not) believe.

These situations are not equivalent.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, sudden wagon on me is bad.

DDS in particular looks incredibly opportunistic. I don't think they've expressed an opinion on me at all until now (do point me to it if I'm wrong though)?

[Radical Rat]

Would I be horribly out of line in thinking this looks kinda like Drapion going "Well, throwing a fit worked for mastina, maybe it'll save me too!"?

While this is not a bad thought, I feel like a town-RR would push it stronger.

Do you think I'm scum WITH professotic?

Because if you think we're not aligned, what incentive does scum!me have to pull their punches?

[Radical Rat]

Fuck I’m probably going to be ML’ed for this but I like that vote.

VOTE: Radical Rat

If we're gonna do this thing where we don't lim Mastina my preference would be Bunny way over Rat. Rat is pretty town.

Did you vote Bunny with me?
No you did not.

You don’t believe this, so stop.

Wanting to vote mastina more != Not thinking Bunny can be scum

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, sudden wagon on me is bad.

DDS in particular looks incredibly opportunistic. I don't think they've expressed an opinion on me at all until now (do point me to it if I'm wrong though)?

I don't need to state a scumread on you previously to think you could easily be scum here

No, but you DO need to have some kind of reasoning that has so far not been expressed

[Radical Rat]

Idk about you TicTac but this is a bad post considering RR knows Mastina voted off of me and that wolves will sometimes intervene into a situation like I believe is being referred to here.

tis kinda standard argument everyone makes when voted.
i have 0 opinions about it.

If you only look at that part sure.

But wolves tend to place themselves in thread a specific way and usually a wolf won’t go too hard on someone so they don’t look that bad after an ML.


Example is here.
If I went over, Radical doesn’t get any blame.
Something wolves tend to do.

If I'm scum in a multiball game, my priority is other scum. It's just objectively the correct way to play multiball scum, so even if you scumread me, you have no reason to doubt my reads/pushes are genuine. The only reason I'd be holding back is if I'm pushing a hypothetical partner for distancing purposes.

Ergo, if mastina thinks I'm pulling punches with you, that only makes sense if she thinks I'm partnered with you, in which case abandoning your wagon for mine does not make sense.

So the only conclusion I can draw is that mastina doesn't actually believe what she's saying.

[Radical Rat]

Rough readslist, as promised. Not doing any proper ISO digging right now, but...

Spoiler:

Town
MMR

Townlean
Scarfmanship
Enchant
Frozen Ange
Ydrasse
T-Bone
Mathblade

Null
Dingle Dangle Scarecrow
Radja
Maid Cafe

Scumlean
Furtiveglance
Past Present Future
Yume
Bunnyonce

Scum
mastina
professotic

Not ordered within each tier, and isn't accounting for who's on which team, since I don't have a clear picture of that myself yet.
Pleasantly surprised that I wound up with about the correct number of scum though. I'd be willing to compromise on any of them if we're not doing mastina. Preference is obviously going to be professotic though, like. That is a tremendously overblown reaction for Town to have, and I am once again confused by someone claiming only the dangerous parts of their role without actually giving us the information to properly evaluate the claim.

@RR can you explain this readslist to me? I know you’re pretty decent at reading me, so how do you have me as a scumlean here?

I assume this is Nancy speaking? I can't say I remember playing with you in anything but Double Agency, so I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm good at reading you, but you're a scumlean because while tonally you seem fine, I thought your defense of mastina was too confident given the circumstances. Felt like you'd already had your mind made up about her instead of genuinely considering the points against her. A lot like Yume, really.

I haven't felt it prudent to push directly on that yet though, because pre-flip associatives and all.

[Radical Rat]

My own rule of thumb is that highposting bodes well for more townies barring a highposter having some sort of value beyond just well, posting

I understand this take is without context, but you play enough of these games and you start to notice patterns. Does anyone believe that the notated users have any scum equity? Open question

professotic, Past Present Future, and Yume are all in my scum pool.

[Radical Rat]

My own rule of thumb is that highposting bodes well for more townies barring a highposter having some sort of value beyond just well, posting

I understand this take is without context, but you play enough of these games and you start to notice patterns. Does anyone believe that the notated users have any scum equity? Open question

professotic, Past Present Future, and Yume are all in my scum pool.

Are these players independently scummy or do you think this could comprise a scumteam? The only time I think a scumteam high posts is if they're comfortable enough to do it with another. It can be awkward if you don't know your teammates too well to properly have filler conversation

I think PPF and Yume are potential partners for mastina, and professotic is potentially on the other scumteam.

[Radical Rat]

My own rule of thumb is that highposting bodes well for more townies barring a highposter having some sort of value beyond just well, posting

I understand this take is without context, but you play enough of these games and you start to notice patterns. Does anyone believe that the notated users have any scum equity? Open question

professotic, Past Present Future, and Yume are all in my scum pool.

Are these players independently scummy or do you think this could comprise a scumteam? The only time I think a scumteam high posts is if they're comfortable enough to do it with another. It can be awkward if you don't know your teammates too well to properly have filler conversation

I think PPF and Yume are potential partners for mastina, and professotic is potentially on the other scumteam.

Can you expand this thought for me in shortform/longform

Whichever you prefer

Right, uh.

mastina has been a contentious slot most of the game, had a big toxic 1v1 with MathBlade earlier, along the way she forced MathBlade into a premature claim, compiling and exposing his crumbs, while insisting she actually had the role MathBlade was crumbing, and that meant MathBlade was scum (but somehow not her?), but then after MathBlade claimed D2 Dayvig, mastina said that wasn't actually her role and she thought he was crumbing something else undisclosed, but MathBlade was still totally scum, and so was everyone who scumreads her, and threatened to publicly harass any Town on her wagon in future games for daring to be wrong about her. Eventually the wagon on her got all the way to E-2, but no one else was willing to make the move, some believing mastina's frustration to be genuine and therefore Town (I think it's MOSTLY genuine, but still scum), some insisting that this is actually totally her Town meta, which I do not agree with and also means nothing in multiball, but that's where the wagon stalled and splintered.

Among the latter is PPF, who I think demonstrated too much confidence in the townread, and Yume who I ALSO think demonstrated too much confidence, and also made a completely bonkers claim about being able to verify SPECIFICALLY mastina and MathBlade's alignments, but not in a cop way, and stated that if she gets blocked (a near certainty if scum have any kind of blocking ability) that just makes mastina more Town, because scum only ever block inno results and not guilties I guess? She wouldn't elaborate on the claim any further.

Then professotic was on the mastina wagon, left because he didn't like any of the counterwagons being proposed by mastina's defenders, and tried to start a counter-counterwagon on Bunnyonce, backfired because people thought the move off mastina looked weird and threw a tantrum claiming to quit the game after being voted by people who should have probably been scumreads anyway? They've since NOT actually quit the game, but the whole deal was just a very peculiar mess.

I hope you were able to follow that, but I think that about covers where my head's at for now.

[Radical Rat]

My own rule of thumb is that highposting bodes well for more townies barring a highposter having some sort of value beyond just well, posting

I understand this take is without context, but you play enough of these games and you start to notice patterns. Does anyone believe that the notated users have any scum equity? Open question

professotic, Past Present Future, and Yume are all in my scum pool.

Are these players independently scummy or do you think this could comprise a scumteam? The only time I think a scumteam high posts is if they're comfortable enough to do it with another. It can be awkward if you don't know your teammates too well to properly have filler conversation

I think PPF and Yume are potential partners for mastina, and professotic is potentially on the other scumteam.

Can you expand this thought for me in shortform/longform

Whichever you prefer

I don't think this needs explaining, but it's not accurate and I'm struggling to believe RR has these reads as town. These 3 players seem to be 'aligned' based on saying the similar things and defending each other. But individually they're quite towny. Yume in particular, different to when I've seen them as mafia. Mastina seems to have that kind of ego/paranoia they always have. And PPF - can't remember who said it but all 3 heads in town meta. Idk Auro too well but agree on the other 2. So tldr is bad reads from RR, not because they don't make sense but bc they do on a surface level.

mastina is absolutely not towny individually. Her ego/paranoia aren't wholly relevant to my read on her, but it's the points she's been making and the ways she's chosen to go about making them. Her thoughts are not coming from a Town state of mind.

PPF I will agree looks Town at a glance individually, but they've chosen to entwine themselves with mastina for some reason, and that smells aligned to me. But that's also contingent on mastina flipping the way I expect her to.

And Yume... Honestly, if it weren't confirmed there's no third parties I'd think she were a Jester. Not 100% sure if it's personal loyalty to mastina or game loyalty, but either way it doesn't look good.

[Radical Rat]

Wait but there's not a phase named "Day"

I assumed you meant Dawn 1, the second Day equivalent phase.

I know you've said Dusk 2 before though, I guess I just didn't process it as such...

Point's the same though

[Radical Rat]

PPF I will agree looks Town at a glance individually, but they've chosen to entwine themselves with mastina for some reason, and that smells aligned to me. But that's also contingent on mastina flipping the way I expect her to.

I don't think that's an accurate read of PPF. Nancy is clearly hanging her hat, rightly or wrongly, on her meta read of Mastina. It's not for some reason, it's for a specific reason. Yes, it's for a reason you disagree with (and I do too) but it's been specifically stated.

The way Nancy approaches her read around Mastina and the way Yume does is night and day though. It might help you to compare and contrast there.

This is fair, it's just frustrating that I can point out all of the ways mastina's actual content is scummy, but because she had an angry and condescending attitude that she can sometimes have as Town, it's her Town meta. Even though I, you, Math, and others have all pointed out that it's fakable, multiball fucks with meta reads, and even mastina herself has admitted she isn't playing to either her Town or scum meta since she isn't even really mastina at this point, and it's just... I can't comprehend looking at everything that's happened and seeing mastina as Town with any degree of confidence, meta or not.

[Radical Rat]

Would I be horribly out of line in thinking this looks kinda like Drapion going "Well, throwing a fit worked for mastina, maybe it'll save me too!"?

While this is not a bad thought, I feel like a town-RR would push it stronger.

Do you think I'm scum WITH professotic?
Because if you think we're not aligned, what incentive does scum!me have to pull their punches?

This is not a real thought from you.

You know why?

Because this isn't a singleball game and you know it isn't.

What reason does a scum player

in a multiball

game have to pull their punches?

I shouldn't need to say that, now, should I?

But just in case you wanna try to spin it, I'll spell it out anyway.

Scum in multiball want to push hard enough to look town and not be eliminated, but not hard enough to get nightkilled by the enemy team. They still want to apply

some

pressure, to prevent their own faction from being the pressured. Whether it's better to pressure town or pressure other-scum is both player-dependent (different players think different things) and situation-dependent (big difference between town being hugely in the lead and one scumteam being unscathed while the other is on the verge of extinction), but applying some pressure, but not too much pressure, is exactly what scum in multiball want to do.

A town-you knows this.
A town-you pushes harder.

But you because you're scum are pretending to not know a Mafia 101 thing. It's literally the first rule of multiball.

I fundamentally disagree with this. Scum want to eliminate AND nightkill other Scum, to remove the threat as fast as possible. So the best defense is to look Town, and the best way to look Town is to just be honest with your reads and pushes, and put behind them the same degree of fervor that you have faith. In singleball, you have to exaggerate confidence because you made up the argument, while also tempering yourself because you know they'll flip Town and you don't want to be the one taking the blame. In multiball the only reason there should ever be a mismatch there is if it's theater with a buddy.


Having said all of that, I do understand your point of view here better, and am willing to concede that on this one particular point, we just have a theory disagreement.

[Radical Rat]

But I didn't remember which was which at the time. (Now, I'm pretty sure it was the scum meta.)

Why wouldn't you just.... check?

[Radical Rat]

Check the argument in 1888. "mastina's newer posts are better, but her older ones are scum".
Check the argument in 2296. "mastina's newer posts are out of her meta, therefore should not be town".

This is flat out untrue.

In 2296 I was speaking

holistically

not specifically about your newer posts. (Latest batch btw? Bad.)

[Radical Rat]

I also didn't say you were out of meta except in one very old post in direct response to you claiming mastina doesn't ever consider the possibility of being wrong.

I DID say that meta is a bad defense, not that my scumread on you is meta-based, because it isn't.

And in the post about you not trying to be mastina anymore, the reasoning YOU GAVE was that you didn't have the energy for it AND that you'd been trying and failing to match it for a while at that point.

[Radical Rat]

the reasoning YOU GAVE was that you didn't have the energy for it AND that you'd been trying and failing to match it for a while at that point.

Okay I apologize for this, it's not actually true. I went back to pull receipts, and... it wasn't there. Human memory is a fickle thing.

I stand by everything else though.

My reasoning isn't that you're off meta. My reasoning isn't that you were being toxic earlier. My reasoning isn't that I just want the day to end.

You are putting words into my mouth (which... I realize I just did to you, but like. At least I had the decency to correct myself), and you are doing it to force a mislim.

[Radical Rat]

I just got off work, will post properly when I get home/after dinner.

I'm a protective role though (I think). I'll explain more when I get back

[Radical Rat]

Okay so.

I can remove burns on people, and if I target someone on the same phase they would receive a burn, the burn is blocked. My target will be informed if a burn is removed or blocked successfully.

I have not been told what a burn actually is, but I assume it has to do with the nonstandard factional abilities. Solar Cult makes the most sense to be burning people to me in that case.

[Radical Rat]

Someone really should unvote me.

[Radical Rat]

Enchant does NOT 100% always hammer. He does like to lolhammer a lot, but he's not Not_Mafia.

[Radical Rat]

¤ Each non-town faction wins when they make up half the remaiming players, and the other scumteam is all eliminated.

[Radical Rat]

Why does Enchant unvote you if his goal is just to save me? If he's giving up on me, he can hammer and be done with it. If he's not, keeping you as high as possible is the best option, is it not?

[Radical Rat]

This game is going to be an excellent case study into why relying solely on meta for your reads is a bad idea

[Radical Rat]

I have to go but we are looking at a day soon as the replacement gets in.

That’s like almost no time at all.

If you really don’t want Mastina elimmed push someone.

See y’all tomorrow.

I’m trying to. I’m voting my strongest sr.

Sell me on scarf scum. Is it just a tone thing or what?

[Radical Rat]

I mean I scumread you for your very specific informed seeming play around Mastina. That post was just another example.

And those who scumread mastina aren't informed?! Screw that, if none of you are informed, you would have reconsidered! Which none of you except Mathblade did! And you stand here and tell me that's towny!

I have reconsidered. And I come to the same conclusion every time.

All of the defenses on mastina I've seen are that she's "in her Town meta" which I simply don't agree with but also just is not a compelling argument even if I did. No matter how angry she gets or how many walls she posts, it does not change that the underlying logic behind her arguments has made the most sense coming from a scum perspective. The potential TMI on scum numbers, the MathBlade role circus, the fact that 90% of her points against other slots are either OMGUS or unsubstantiated meta, the way that she so easily reciprocates townreads, it just isn't coming from a Town state of mind

If you are truly Town here, you're probably being pocketed.

[Radical Rat]

Does anyone think I'm asking Yume gotcha questions or what? I feel like I'm asking reasonable questions based on the things they are saying. Someone sanity check me if its not the case.

I think I find your questions unproductive.

I am not sure if they are gotcha or not but I don’t think they are helpful.

It’s extremely unlikely we elim Yume today.

So I’d ask what is your goal by asking them?

Trying to sort. I am apparently the only person who reads Yume as scum. Not everyone is scum, so some townies have a real town read. Do I have a hero read or am I missing something? That's what I was trying to find out.

I also think Yume is probably scum.

[Radical Rat]

Does anyone think I'm asking Yume gotcha questions or what? I feel like I'm asking reasonable questions based on the things they are saying. Someone sanity check me if its not the case.

I think I find your questions unproductive.

I am not sure if they are gotcha or not but I don’t think they are helpful.

It’s extremely unlikely we elim Yume today.

So I’d ask what is your goal by asking them?

Trying to sort. I am apparently the only person who reads Yume as scum. Not everyone is scum, so some townies have a real town read. Do I have a hero read or am I missing something? That's what I was trying to find out.

I also think Yume is probably scum.

Yet neither of you are willing to vote for me.

I think mastina is more likely to be scum in a vacuum, whereas my scumread on you is dependent on her. Therefore, it makes sense to eliminate mastina first.

Having said that, you HAVE been on my list that I'd be willing to compromise on for a long while now, and if people are more comfortable eliminating you than mastina, I'll help out. But that doesn't appear to be the case right now.

[Radical Rat]

I thought I had specified, but my ability works during Noon, which is part of the reason I assumed burning to be Solar's thing.

[Radical Rat]

I do hate to extend this further, it's past my bedtime as well, but why do I get lumped in with the lazy group when I DO have reasons that I HAVE articulated, and not one of them has ever been about ending the day/improving game state/whatever?

[Radical Rat]

Sounds like you just have mod-confirmed existence of an investigation immunity. I don't know why you'd expect that to apply to me, though it is good information to have.

I do believe your claim, and actually see exactly why you reacted the way you did to Math's crumbs now. The catch there is that I stand by what I said before. Especially with roles this specific, I don't believe a Townie looks at vague crumbs and jumps to the conclusion that scum is softing a role they likely don't know exists. I do believe a relatively powerful scum role expects a counterpart on the other team and would be sensitive to clues on that front.

The ability itself... Could go either way, but seems more useful for scum. For Town, it's not a hard guilty, but it does allow us to determine players aren't on the SAME scumteam... But for scum Moon attunement means a potential rival, while Sun attunement means potential interference (like me). And then there's one other thing...

You mentioned you think your role implies recruitment exists. I don't see what implies recruitment in any of that, so where is that coming from?

[Radical Rat]

Six scum AND recruitment is a hell of a balancing choice though, so I don't think both can be genuine slips... I'll come back to it after sleep

[Radical Rat]

no, it doesn't imply investigation immunity exists, because what if checking an unattuned VT gives you no result?

I meant the part where she said something could prevent her from targeting certain players, and expected that I would have a similar clause in my role.

[Radical Rat]

You mentioned you think your role implies recruitment exists. I don't see what implies recruitment in any of that, so where is that coming from?

The can't-target-same-player-twice part. As an investigative that gets information about something that people expect to be immutable (unchangeable), why would I be unable to check someone twice?

Thus, implication that it's to prevent me from seeing a change in attunement, implying recruitment but not being explicit.

That does make sense, and apparently scarf saw it too, so alright then. I blame me being tired

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

I'm going to look over all this with fresh eyes tomorrow. MathBlade's role apparently being complementary takes away from my suspicion it's a scum investigative, though I do still think mastina's play has been scummy... I don't know, but I'm not going to figure any of it out without sleep.

[Radical Rat]

Good, but can we just end the day, and soon? I am kinda annoyed it's being dragged on and on...

But we're so close to doubling the original deadline! Just a few more days!

[Radical Rat]

In all seriousness though, I still have no idea what to make of mastina. Originally, my suspicion was that her and MathBlade had potential for being two rival scum. Over time, my read on Math got better, and my read on mastina worse, but the claim does seem to be real and has some kind of interaction with MathBlade's, and both of them are able to be specifically investigated by Yume apparently, so all three of them are entangled pretty tightly here now. And they can't all be on the same team, unless that was just one hell of a show Math and mastina put on earlier, so I think the best thing to do is just let that group sort itself out for now.

So in terms of who I want to see eliminated most, I'd say probably DDS. I think their play has been detached and opportunistic in a way that definitely doesn't seem Town, and they've been sinking steadily all game for me. However, I'm not going to try to start a vanity wagon at this point. I think we're all ready for this to be over with, so the real question isn't who I want eliminated most, it's am I okay with eliminating Bunnyonce?

p-edit removing vote

Yeah, I am. I've been waffling internally quite a bit here, but lean toward the scum side of the scale, especially when Greeting's posting. In particluar, the suggestion that I could still be Lunar Cult was technically plausible given the information we had at the time (though mastina's info now confirms I cannot be), but it doesn't seem like a Town thought process to me. Like looking for excuses to make the elimination still happen instead of actually evaluating my claim. So yeah, I'm pretty okay with this.

P-Edit:
Consider this intent then. Last reads, questions, anything worth claiming?

[Radical Rat]

There's not going to be a wagon that isn't sus as hell, unfortunately. Scum want to eliminate the other scum too, and Town is getting sick of the endless Dusk, making everyone more willing to just go for things. I'm not immune to this, though I WOULD be kicking up a bigger fuss if one of my actual townreads were up there, but fortunately they are not.

[Radical Rat]

Do what you have to, I won't hammer until you're finished

And if anyone does, they're scumclaiming.

[Radical Rat]

Very well.

Then let the last vestiges of this endless sunset finally fade, as we embrace the coming peace of darkness.

VOTE: Bunnyonce

[Radical Rat]

Also, PPF lied about selling apples.

Really?
We tried to investigate them last Night and we received no result.
Measles think that this could be due to our Loyal modifier.
-Rubella

? Can you explain your post to us more?

Assuming that you're talking to us, we're a Loyal Rolestopper.
-Rubella

Why would you protect us over claimed prs?

Mumps and Measles wanted to see your reaction.
We're actually Loyal Neapolitan.
I guess that your reaction means that you're Town.
-Rubella

Wait hold up.

You're Loyal, got a no result, and decided that makes PPF Town?

That's a scumclaim isn't it?

[Radical Rat]

Also, PPF lied about selling apples.

Really?
We tried to investigate them last Night and we received no result.
Measles think that this could be due to our Loyal modifier.
-Rubella

? Can you explain your post to us more?

Assuming that you're talking to us, we're a Loyal Rolestopper.
-Rubella

Why would you protect us over claimed prs?

Mumps and Measles wanted to see your reaction.
We're actually Loyal Neapolitan.
I guess that your reaction means that you're Town.
-Rubella

Wait hold up.

You're Loyal, got a no result, and decided that makes PPF Town?

That's a scumclaim isn't it?

If it's a scumclaim, where's your vote?

~Titus

I am providing a chance to respond first

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: MMR

Hypothetically possible you were blocked, but in that case why claim at all?

[Radical Rat]

If you're not sure your check went through, and you townread the target enough to discard the maybe-guilty on those grounds, why wouldn't you just try again later before claiming?

[Radical Rat]

RR why are you voting with mastina despite believing she was scum D1

Because it's multiball and scum will sometimes vote scum.

[Radical Rat]

If you're not sure your check went through, and you townread the target enough to discard the maybe-guilty on those grounds, why wouldn't you just try again later before claiming?

What is this nonsense?

I am kinda getting scared that D1 I had majority of the scum team
It explains Professor dying
It explains Ascetic on PPF
It explains Mastina and RR voting the cop instead of the guilty. (I know claimed Neo it’s more a phrase)

Is my paranoia valid?

They said their guilty was Town. That's why I'm on them.

If they didn't trust the result, they shouldn't have claimed at all instead of contradicting it.

[Radical Rat]

RR why are you voting with mastina despite believing she was scum D1

Because it's multiball and scum will sometimes vote scum.

I don't remember what you were thinking D1, but where is your head now?

You were receptive to my questions then and I assume you'll give me fair treatment still

mastina may or may not still be scum. I still stand by everything I said about her mindset seeming to be from a scum perspective, BUT I do believe her claim, and though it makes sense as either a scum or a Town role, I think it's worth waiting to see what comes of it. Being somehow entwined with MathBlade, who is now half of an IC, also shifts her away from my desired eliminations for now.

Regardless of mastina's alignment though, MMR's claim makes no sense, and I do think this makes them scum. Even if mastina is scum, there is at least some number of scum she wants dead just as much as I do, so I have no issues working with her on that.

[Radical Rat]

I have neither the time nor energy to read through whatever nonsense has been filling the thread this time, but it really seems pretty straightforward to me.

MMR claimed a soft-guilty from Loyal, but apparently doesn't trust their own result.

PPF has claimed not ascetic, so the only other way the result isn't guilty from Town!MMR is if there was a roleblocker, which I find to be exceedingly unlikely given the multiple PR claims a roleblocker might target instead, and the existence of a roleblocker at all being unconfirmed.

So AT LEAST one of them HAS to be scum. SvS is possible, but TvT is such a remote possibility as to not be worth considering. I think MMR's claim is a dishonest attempt at influencing an elimination while avoiding responsibility for the flip, so I'm willing to bet MMR is scum here and want to flip them first, see what their role actually is, and judge PPF from there.

I do understand the desire to just follow the guilty instead, and I figure PPF has a decent shot at being scum based on my D1 reads, so I'll help that go through if it becomes necessary, but thinking critically about this the claim just doesn't make sense, so I prefer that be settled first.

[Radical Rat]

Current mastina wagon definitely contains teammates of MMR and/or PPF. If we hit scum today, that's where I'd recommend a dayvig go, were it up to me.

[Radical Rat]

[unwnd, furtive, Firebringer] contains one, possibly two scum is what I'm saying. Potentially even three if PPF/MMR is SvS. mastina is a counterwagon to resolving the guilty, which should be our top priority here, and I have a difficult time imagining Town thinking otherwise. If whichever of PPF/MMR gets eliminated flips scum, it's not entirely clear what the other's alignment is, but shooting any one of the mastina voters would have solid odds of hitting in my mind. I'd need to probably do ISOs to decide who my top top pick would be, but frankly I don't want to right now, and you said you wanted to keep it loose anyway.

I scumread MMR because I think the result (or lack thereof) is likely bullshit due to the premature claim, and presenting it as though the result is meaningless, making claiming make even less sense.

I lean scum on PPF, because if I'm wrong on MMR, that's obviously a guilty, but also my read from D1 with regards to the reciprocal Townread with mastina coming too early and too strong without much justification stands.

[Radical Rat]

Current mastina wagon definitely contains teammates of MMR and/or PPF. If we hit scum today, that's where I'd recommend a dayvig go, were it up to me.

What makes you think scum won't bus?
Last time, I saw scum bus, Town ended up losing.
Surely, scum might do that again?
-Rubella

I don't think scum WON'T bus, but I do think scum will at least attempt to save a partner first. Especially if it's done in a way that isn't an actual defense/townread, so they can easily switch to bussing if it becomes necessary.

[Radical Rat]

mastina isn't a counterwagon to the guilty

I am fine with killing either one. My war is against mastina apologists

We have a claimed guilty on the field, and that takes priority. mastina's not going anywhere, and stubbornly sticking to her is anti-Town at best.

[Radical Rat]

How does pushing wagons on other people or fighting with MathBlade get anything resolved?

[Radical Rat]

Ideally a person both Mastina and MMR TR so then they’re both incentivized for the townfirm but not me. Someone who has longevity.

Got that.
And seeing that mastina also claimed Astrologer (I missed that.), I guess that she could be Town because it wouldn't make sense for scum to receive a fakeclaim which is also a TPR.
I'll talk with my hydra partmers before we decide on a vote.
-Rubella

Didn't you say you were informed scum had a near identical role? Why would your conclusion be mastina's Town because she isn't fakeclaiming instead of her being scum because she's you? Also Loyal isn't in your name, but Limited IS in mastina's. That discrepancy seems important to me.

It really does just look more and more like you don't believe your own claim...

[Radical Rat]

is astrologer even a real role

Probably. I'd say Mastina is probably fake and had some kind of informed modifier which told her that Astrologer existed.

Can't wait to lim MMR and find out they flipped scum as a reaction test in the dead thread

[Radical Rat]

I didn't mean to quote anything, ignore that

[Radical Rat]

Can't wait to lim MMR and find out they flipped scum as a reaction test in the dead thread

You're being sarcastic, right?
-Rubella

Yes

[Radical Rat]

I think having an unresolved guilty result and arguing that needs to be resolved today is a bit different than the people arguing that you (mastina) needed to be resolved yesterday because you were loud and annoying.

I have no intention of voting for anyone other than MMR/PPF today, preference MMR reasons already stated, but eliminating within the bounds of the claim is going to give us mechanical insight and associatives for both scumteams, as well as the ability to analyze how people behaved around the claim(s), and basically gives us a very large hole with which to finally tear this game open. Eliminating outside potentially outs even more PRs than we already have, and tells us very little about anything else.

I know I can't outspam people enough to force my way, and frankly I don't want to try because that's not fun for anyone, but I do want to make it 100% clear that I believe this NEEDS to happen, and the longer we put it off the worse it's gonna get.

I do NOT want a repeat of yesterday where we all just settle on whoever we feel the least about because no one can agree on shit. Get over whatever your (general you) issue with mastina, or unwnd, or MathBlade, or whoever else is FOR NOW, and settle the guilty claim. Then we can go from there.

[Radical Rat]

I never thought I'd see a game where "we should do something about a claimed guilty" was a controversial take...

[Radical Rat]

While I don't expect this to sway you since you've devoted yourself so strongly to a PPF townread based on nothing, a Town flip on MMR DOES point very strongly to PPF being guilty, and vice versa. In which case they'd probably either be dayvigged by Math or nightkilled by scum, depending on which factions are involved, and if they also somehow flip Town?

Well, then I'll admit I was wrong, and offer a sincere apology for flipping a bunch of Town, but also we still gain mechanical information from the flips, that we seemingly can't get otherwise due to MMR's addiction to making shit up for "reaction tests" and at least one scumteam having a janitor.

In particular, I'm curious about this Loyal claim, because it doesn't match with your claim in either form or function, and if it's real it casts serious doubt on your claim, and vice versa.

[Radical Rat]

I had another response typed, but fine we'll address that.

Tell me WHY PPF is Town by play, because so far all I've seen you say is that Nancy is only "like this" as Town. Define "like this," and explain why she can't do whatever it is as scum.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, I'll concede I didn't read most of those posts, and rescind my remark about the townread being based on nothing. It was uncalled for considering that I already know I'm not reading all of your posts, and could have used ctrl-f as you say.

I don't agree it's anywhere near as strong as you think it is, but that's more a distaste for an overreliance on meta and a belief that players are able to manipulate and adapt it than anything else, and I don't think either of us are budging on that one.

Regardless, my point stands. I think a Town flip on either incriminates the other with very strong certainty, but also individually I find it likely both are scum, so I'm not moving.

[Radical Rat]

This game is never going to end

[Radical Rat]

Just to be clear: does anyone think Mastina/MMR could both be their claimed roles? I don't.

I don't either. I'm inclined to believe mastina more because she gave more info, was consistent about it, and did it first, but there's no way both of their roles exist as claimed.

[Radical Rat]

Just to be clear: does anyone think Mastina/MMR could both be their claimed roles? I don't.

I don't either. I'm inclined to believe mastina more because she gave more info, was consistent about it, and did it first, but there's no way both of their roles exist as claimed.

mastina was repeating the same like 2 or three points all day. Just because she puts in a lot of words doesn't mean its more info

I meant specifically about her claim.

[Radical Rat]

Just to be clear: does anyone think Mastina/MMR could both be their claimed roles? I don't.

I don't either. I'm inclined to believe mastina more because she gave more info, was consistent about it, and did it first, but there's no way both of their roles exist as claimed.

Ok but why would MMR, as scum, fakeclaim the same role as someone else, forcing them into a 1v1? Surely they would claim a different role?

I don't know, why does mastina fakeclaim the same role as someone else (there's no way it was a coincidence so she'd have to have been informed somehow) forcing them into a 1v1?

[Radical Rat]

Mostly just prodging while waiting on replacements, but nothing I've said has changed. Either/both of MMR/PPF could flip scum, MMR claim shenanigans is worse than PPF's potential associatives with mastina, so still prefer MMR.

[Radical Rat]

I can play as 3 slots therefore.

Reverse Hydra

[Radical Rat]

We should have waited to give the replacements, especially mastina's, a chance to get their bearings and ask questions before the Noon.

If we're lucky, mastina was just scum and it doesn't matter, but even so...

[Radical Rat]

I have role-related knowledge that someone either tried to kill Meuh

or

used a negative utility action on her during the “Noon” phase

So you can act during BOTH Noon AND Night? Is that correct?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

Yume already claimed to have checked someone during Night 1. So either Yume lied, or you're lying now. Why?

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

Okay, I'll buy that. Response was fast enough for there not to have been deliberation, and it also explains why you were on mastina/Meuh in the first place.

Which also means Meuh is 99% likely to be Town, and I owe mastina an apology...

Not sure what this does for the rest of my reads yet.

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

Okay, I'll buy that. Response was fast enough for there not to have been deliberation, and it also explains why you were on mastina/Meuh in the first place.

Which also means Meuh is 99% likely to be Town, and I owe mastina an apology...

Not sure what this does for the rest of my reads yet.

Are you thinking Mastina is likely town because scum tried to kill her?

She acts during Noon, so she can't be Lunar. And then if she was targeted by a scum ability during the Noon, that means she can't be Solar either.

The only scenario she can be scum now is if her entire claim was made up, but I don't believe that to be the case based on the level of detail, the so-far correct information it contains, and the fact that she'd have to spend the whole game guessing results, and being wrong even once gets her eliminated.

[Radical Rat]

Can someone quote the post where PPF said they could be confirmed today?

I tried to find it in their ISO, but ctrl-F'ing for "confirm" didn't find it.

[Radical Rat]

I have role-related knowledge that someone either tried to kill Meuh

or

used a negative utility action on her during the “Noon” phase

I cannot guarantee that it was scum that targeted her. albeit I agree it was likely scum, since I don’t see why town would mess with a claimed invest

Given there was no kill, do you feel comfortable outing your doc target Rat?

I thought Yume said she knew if scum visited? Possible she just assumed there was no Town negative utility I guess.

In any case, my target was T-Bone. I figured him being a universal townread, and a consistent presence in thread would make him a likely target.

[Radical Rat]

She acts during Noon, so she can't be Lunar.

I'm trying to logic why either of these things are definitely true and I can't. Can you eli5?

She said that all Solar Cult members were Sun attuned, and all Lunar Cult members were Moon attuned, and that this dictated when they (and Town PRs) could act. It is theoretically possible that mastina was lying about this, but it would be disproven if anyone flipped that didn't match, and then she would die, so as either Town or Scum she has no reason to say any of that unless she's absolutely sure.

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

Okay, I'll buy that. Response was fast enough for there not to have been deliberation, and it also explains why you were on mastina/Meuh in the first place.

Which also means Meuh is 99% likely to be Town, and I owe mastina an apology...

Not sure what this does for the rest of my reads yet.

I don’t get this.

If CSF/Yume knows Mastina/Meuh wasn’t targeted N1 and N2
Wouldn’t they submit two actions?

Please elaborate

I basically role watch someone at Night, and the watch is effective until the next Night. Yume watched Mastina/Meuh, and I couldn’t change it

[Radical Rat]

I feel like I should clarify that I have NOT claimed Doctor, since people keep repeating that. I am explicitly told in my role PM that I do not know what a burn does. Which is very strange if it's just a flavored Doctor.

We all kinda assumed it implied a factional arsonist, which does seem pretty plausible, especially in light of the no kill... Except that they didn't target me, which seems pretty silly if I'm capable of negating their kill.

So my current theory is that burning is something distinct from Solar's ability to kill, which they apparently don't think is important enough to prioritize killing me? The kill must have been prevented by other means, and said other means should absolutely not claim.

[Radical Rat]

Regarding PPF, I was trying to re-evaluate since I was evidently wrong about mastina, and my interpretation had been that they were partnered... But MMR receiving anything but vanilla makes no sense. I thought their talk of confirmation seemed to lack agency, and thought they may have been softing VT, especially saying mastina was the one who confirmed them, but today they're very clearly saying they're some kind of scary PR... Which doesn't work.

If they were a Town PR that Lunar was scared enough of to fake a guilty, knowing MMR would get eliminated from it... MMR would have actually tried to push it AS a guilty. Make damn sure PPF dies first. MMR's hedging and beating around the bush (also a hedge!) implied that they were not sure what PPF would flip, and that implies either a Vanilla result or No Result at all. And if they indeed had no result and just made the whole thing up.... Why bother?

[Radical Rat]

I’d like a list of everyone you claim you saved from burning please RR.

Can you elaborate why you are surprised by either of those choices?

Why would scum “burn” you over a cop or day vig?
Why would RR protect you over a cop or a day vig?

T-Bone was my only target, as this has been the first time I could act.

I did not target mastina/Meuh because I thought she had a decent chance of being Solar, and I'd rather have healed a townread, plus being a common scumread is usually decent protection already if I was wrong about her.

I did not even consider targeting you because you claimed to have been immune to burns, so why would I need to?

[Radical Rat]

I’d like a list of everyone you claim you saved from burning please RR.

Can you elaborate why you are surprised by either of those choices?

Why would scum “burn” you over a cop or day vig?
Why would RR protect you over a cop or a day vig?

T-Bone was my only target, as this has been the first time I could act.

I did not target mastina/Meuh because I thought she had a decent chance of being Solar, and I'd rather have healed a townread, plus being a common scumread is usually decent protection already if I was wrong about her.

I did not even consider targeting you because you claimed to have been immune to burns, so why would I need to?

I did not claim immune

I said I personally do not burn

I interpreted that as immunity, like you'd say asbestos doesn't burn.

[Radical Rat]

To rephrase, I guess it wouldn't be improbable for any person on the player list to be target by scum for any reason, but from what I personally viewed yesterday, you did not make yourself a big target. So while I guess it it's possible to see you getting burned, I find it odd that not only did you get burned, but just so happened to be protected from the burn as well when there are definitely bigger persona's in the game.

RR, tell me your reads?

You said you didn't want to protect Math because you thought he was already, and you didn't want to protect Meuh/mastina because you think they are scum as well, but I don't remember you ever even talking about T-Bone, let alone town reading them. Why not the next more vocal players who shared your opinions, like unwnd or furtiveglance?

Going into the night, I thought unwnd and furtive had a high chance of being scum due to their stubborn insistence on mastina and refusal to engage with the active guilty claim until the very end of the day when all other options had been exhausted.

This was particularly concerning from furtive, doing a hard 180 on mastina.

General readswise, T-Bone and MathBlade are probably my highest townreads. The night's results reaffirm T-Bone, and raise up Meuh and CSF. DDS gets townbinned more as a side-effect of townreading MathBlade, but they're there regardless. Enchant looks pretty Town to me as well. Scarf and Ydrasse give me Town vibes, but it's purely vibe based.

You (Toogeloo) and Firebringer are dead null for me. Replacements and your respective low effort styles make it a difficult read.

PPF, unwnd, furtiveglance all look like scum to me.

Assuming I'm correct on all my townreads, it's a feasible solution to just lump Toogeloo/Firebringer into the scum pile, but I am not at all confident enough to do that yet. I'd rather flip my actual scumreads and go from there.

[Radical Rat]

I've said furtive and PPF in addition to you.

Though I don't think you're ALL partnered. If I had to guess I'd say furtive Lunar, you and PPF Solar.

[Radical Rat]

I think at this point it is entirely WIFOM and I am consciously choosing not to engage with it

[Radical Rat]

I think at this point it is entirely WIFOM and I am consciously choosing not to engage with it

Regarding recruitment

[Radical Rat]

Why the change? You weren't really calling for my head last phase.

Im just warning you that pairing me with anyone is faulty logic

I do believe I said that the people pushing mastina as a counter to settling the guilty claim were likely aligned with one of MMR/PPF. I stand by that assessment.

[Radical Rat]

Why the change? You weren't really calling for my head last phase.

Im just warning you that pairing me with anyone is faulty logic

I do believe I said that the people pushing mastina as a counter to settling the guilty claim were likely aligned with one of MMR/PPF. I stand by that assessment.

But it wasn't a guilty though was it. MMR literally finished that whole thing by saying "I guess it means you're town" to PPF. How was I meant to get a guilty from that? I didn't know what Loyal/Ascetic even meant.

And you didn't... ask? Check the wiki? Notice me or others going on about how that was an incredibly strange way for someone who got a soft guilty result to react?

[Radical Rat]

Let it be known that I know Firebringer is Cult.

But,

VOTE: Scarfmanship

What are you doing here? Is this a joke?

[Radical Rat]

Wait if unwnd was VT.... Meuh has explaining to do

[Radical Rat]

I could have sworn mastina said only some Townies, not all Townies. Guess it's irrelevant now, but I was under the impression she could function as a Neapolitan. This means it's basically ONLY useful for disproving associatives unless recruitment does exist... but if recruitment exists it makes more sense as a scum role. But then who shenaniganed with her during Noon?

[Radical Rat]

But MMR wasn't under pressure when they claimed, no one was talking about them. So why did they do it?

Botched guilty theory is a possible one

Or, it was an attempt at town clearing PPF which failed for some reason

Elaborate on this. Are you saying MMR/PPF were partners?

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

I am.... Considering things.

[Radical Rat]

Sorry, there was Thanksgiving and now I'm sick so my head is really not in the game right now.

I have not read, but I did check the votecount, and near the votecount was a very peculiar post from scarf...

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: enchant

so the feeling i have about furitive is i feel bad for them, which is a feeling i usually only get about mafia, so i hope you guys vote out furitive without me, but if you don't enchant is ok too.

Lunatics (derogatory term for lunar mafia), PPF is now your problem.

Why would you not just... Vote furtive in this case?

[Radical Rat]

No one is scumreading me, so I can afford to be off wagon if furitive has a scumflip. It's a bit selfish, but more information for me.

Also I prefer toogeloo because I also have the same feeling with PPF where I see where furitive /could/ be town, like how I saw how PPF /could/ be town. Toogeloo is either scum based on their bad actions yesterday or completely useless town, so I am happier getting them out.

This logic is really really weird. So weird I have no idea how to read it. Maybe once my headache goes away I'll have some insight on it...

For now I'm just going to follow my heart.
VOTE: furtiveglance

I won't pretend to have reasons beyond the weirdness around mastina yesterday, because I don't have any, but this is what feels right.

PPF still makes a lot of sense as scum in what remains of my mind in my ailing state, but I have to admit that their unshakable drive to deny the reality of MMR's behavior/flip sounds genuine. I'd expect scum to treat it as a guilty and work around that, rather than stubbornly insist a guilty was impossible when it clearly was possible. Not sure what to make of it, takes more brain than I have available right now.

[Radical Rat]

MathBlade just unvoted

[Radical Rat]

I don't do unannounced E-1's if I can help it

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: furtiveglance

I won't pretend to have reasons beyond the weirdness around mastina yesterday, because I don't have any

D_D

What weirdness? I think you nicked this idea from someone else. All I did was townread mastina D1 then panic D2 then townread them again. Why is that scum indicative?

I said yesterday and multiple times today I'm pretty sure mastina's wagon yesterday had scum on it. And in your case it was a hard 180 from your D1 read

[Radical Rat]

No one is scumreading me, so I can afford to be off wagon if furitive has a scumflip. It's a bit selfish, but more information for me.

Also I prefer toogeloo because I also have the same feeling with PPF where I see where furitive /could/ be town, like how I saw how PPF /could/ be town. Toogeloo is either scum based on their bad actions yesterday or completely useless town, so I am happier getting them out.

This logic is really really weird. So weird I have no idea how to read it. Maybe once my headache goes away I'll have some insight on it...

For now I'm just going to follow my heart.
VOTE: furtiveglance

I won't pretend to have reasons beyond the weirdness around mastina yesterday, because I don't have any, but this is what feels right.

PPF still makes a lot of sense as scum in what remains of my mind in my ailing state, but I have to admit that their unshakable drive to deny the reality of MMR's behavior/flip sounds genuine. I'd expect scum to treat it as a guilty and work around that, rather than stubbornly insist a guilty was impossible when it clearly was possible. Not sure what to make of it, takes more brain than I have available right now.

I’m not denying anything I already explained that I was scum in FFIV with Elsa who janitored T3 and learned his role. Look it up if you think I’m making shit up.

I don't think you're making shit up, I think you're ignoring the possibility that Lunar had more than one factional ability, despite this having been pointed out to you several times.

If you have acknowledged this in the ~10 pages I haven't read, I apologize, but it doesn't change how long you spent insisting it wasn't possible.

[Radical Rat]

On the contrary, it's because I respect your intelligence that this is even an issue I'm considering. If I thought you were just dumb, I'd still be voting you.

[Radical Rat]

This isn't about FFIV.

You said yourself MMR's flip was passive and factional. OP clearly states that both scumteams have nonstandard FACTIONAL abilitieS. We know Lunar has a kill, we don't know if the janitor was factional or role based. A kill is pretty standard, so they must have at least one other thing. And they very well could have targeted you with said other thing.

[Radical Rat]

I'm not trying to rolefish you, I'm trying to explain to you why it looked so bad to most people at the start of the day. To us, who do not have any guaranteed knowledge of your role, it looks an awful lot like a guilty.

You not understanding that is strange to me, and makes me think you might actually be telling the truth. Which was my initial point here.

[Radical Rat]

This isn't directly game related, but I have just tested positive for COVID. My intention is to continue to play to the best of my ability, but my activity, temperament, and logical ability may be compromised somewhat, so I apologize for that

[Radical Rat]

Good News: I lived, and have mostly recovered

Bad News: I have to go back to work

Will read after work

[Radical Rat]

Alright I haven't read fully, I still can't find the attention span for that apparently, but I did see professotic's claim, and that's a spicy one.

@professotic
To be 100% clear, you "killed" yourself with your ability, correct? Or was it just a passive thing that triggers when you die and you were still NK'd?

[Radical Rat]

I'm on page 109 and I want to pull my hair out.

This is why I give up on reading every time I try

[Radical Rat]

It could be a possible clear if we eliminated an entire faction and then a check revealing any player to have similar attunement to the defunct faction would then become ICs basically.

That would require us to have knowledge of when we've killed all of a scumteam, which I don't believe we get

[Radical Rat]

I'm fine with checking PPF, I think the claim is weird enough to be real, though alignment could go either way. It DOES explain MMR'S caginess around the claimed result. We know they're like 90% not Lunar, so a moon result clears them pretty easily.

I have a small theory I've been considering regarding other scum. More on that when I get home.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so what's been bothering me is that MMR dropped the WIFOM line about DDS/Math being traitors on their way out. Normally I wouldn't be paying it any attention, but what's curious to me is how neither DDS nor MathBlade have ever denied the possibility. Both have been scumreading each other fairly consistently, MathBlade has outright said his role implies the existence of traitors which... Being one would certainly do.

If I were Town in their situation I'd probably assume the other one was too, so it just seems odd to me that neither of them seem to have that instinct, instead assuming each other are the other scum.

And then the thing where killing either of them D1 vanillizes their associated scumteam... Seems weird to offer a mechanical reward for a mislim, but if the reward is instead offered for catching a traitor, then it makes sense.

VOTE: Dingle Dangle Scarecrow
If I'm wrong about this, I'd rather be wrong on DDS than Math.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so what's been bothering me is that MMR dropped the WIFOM line about DDS/Math being traitors on their way out. Normally I wouldn't be paying it any attention, but what's curious to me is how neither DDS nor MathBlade have ever denied the possibility. Both have been scumreading each other fairly consistently,

I have never thought MathBlade was anything but town

I was pretty sure you had? I'll ISO later and double check, but I could have sworn you'd been scumreading Math this whole time

[Radical Rat]

actually if someone has the answer please let me know

CSF check that says someone did something bad to meuh
t-bone being protected by RR
Meuh getting unwnd report

all of these happened at the same time? or when

That all happened Noon 1.

[Radical Rat]

I don't have any info to share from my role. So no one targeted my target last night

you never said who your target was

Nor should she until tomorrow. She's locked into the target until next Night, so claiming when it isn't relevant just opens up shenanigans

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so what's been bothering me is that MMR dropped the WIFOM line about DDS/Math being traitors on their way out. Normally I wouldn't be paying it any attention, but what's curious to me is how neither DDS nor MathBlade have ever denied the possibility. Both have been scumreading each other fairly consistently,

I have never thought MathBlade was anything but town

I was pretty sure you had? I'll ISO later and double check, but I could have sworn you'd been scumreading Math this whole time

I did check and I was apparently very wrong about this. I apologize for that, but everything else I've said still stands, and it's kind of a package deal so I don't think it's worth switching over

[Radical Rat]

I did check and I was apparently very wrong about this. I apologize for that, but everything else I've said still stands, and it's kind of a package deal so I don't think it's worth switching over

Your case kind of just boils down to DDS and Math are traitors because MMR made a WIFOM-y post about traitors though

Unless I'm missing something?

It's more a combination of Math/DDS's behavior around the idea, and the whole blessing mechanic being really weird if it's on Town than anything to do with MMR's post itself. Even if they were traitors MMR (probably) wouldn't know that.

DDS not actually scumreading Math like I thought they were does weaken my argument a good deal, but I stand by my points with Math's behavior and the idea that we'd have been rewarded for a mislim an unlikely design choice.

There's also the issue of me just not knowing where else to go. PPF looks like MMR had a guilty, but hasn't been playing like it, so I'm willing to give them a chance at being softcleared instead. Firebringer I was pretty sure was scum yesterday, but my confidence is shaken having been wrong on both unwnd and furtive. Meuh can't be scum unless CSF also is, and while it's tempting to unravel that, the price of being wrong is investigative utility.

So figuring out the deal with DDS/Math makes the most sense here to me.

[Radical Rat]

Why would scum be double-punished for eliminating a traitor in this hypothetical
They'd already be eliminating a member of their faction, why would they also have their entire scumteam vanillaised on top of that

If the blessing was some sort of recruit-become-a-traitor-thing, why would it be announced in-thread

The double punishment is balanced by scum's knowledge of the consequences. A regular traitor wouldn't necessarily have the full support of their team, whereas giving each scumteam knowledge that eliminating them is very bad makes them more likely to avoid it happening. Crucially each team only knew their own anti-target until after the danger had passed, so it becomes more just a "don't push this player" warning than anything else.

And then the semi-clear announcement after is to give Town a chance to look for any weird behavior around the slots in question, as well as provide soft cover for the "traitors" themselves. And indeed the prevailing thought process for a while was that we should focus on people who could be either scum instead of those we know aren't one or the other.

[Radical Rat]

@Radical Rat

Is it possible T-Bone can be Lunar aligned with Dingle?

It's possible, but T-Bone is probably my strongest townread so I don't think that's the case right now. But all we know for sure is that T-Bone isn't Solar, unless they did self-targeting shenanigans.

[Radical Rat]

I agree, I only included the possibility for completeness' sake.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, sorry, I'm not voting T-Bone today. MMR making some odd comments isn't enough to undo a game full of Town behavior. Conversion WOULD erase that, but we still don't have any real evidence conversion exists, and it is a very dangerous thing to just assume.

Most compelling argument re:conversion is definitely Meuh's restriction, but then her role becomes nearly useless if conversion exists, so it still doesn't make sense.

[Radical Rat]

Well, I think it's highly possible Lunar did try to kill professotic, since they'd claimed to be a crazy powerful PR, and then professotic killing themselves overlapped with that.

Then we know Solar did at least two things, one of which was burning T-Bone, which I prevented. If the arsonist theory is correct, that checks out. If it isn't, then I don't know

And then I don't know what happened (or didn't happen) last night, but I think it's logical to assume there's a Night protective since I exist for Noon.

[Radical Rat]

Okay so.

I can remove burns on people, and if I target someone on the same phase they would receive a burn, the burn is blocked.

My target will be informed if a burn is removed or blocked successfully.

I have not been told what a burn actually is, but I assume it has to do with the nonstandard factional abilities. Solar Cult makes the most sense to be burning people to me in that case.

From my original claim

[Radical Rat]

Also there's no way this claim is real, at least not in its entirety.

Note that DDS is claiming to act during both Noon and Night. Every other role we know of that acts during the Night/Noon phases acts during ONE of them. The only exceptions we've seen are Math, who acts during the "day," and MMR/PPF who were both passive.

But then there's another problem even beyond that. The flavor of "Illuminator" doesn't make sense during the Noon. Illuminating actions at Night is fine. But during Noon, the flavor for why we're staying inside is excessively harsh sunlight. What good is an "illuminator" for that?

And then there's also the issue of overlapping CSF's utility. Would we really have two Watcher-type roles? Maybe if one worked at Night and the other at Noon, but that's not what's been claimed here.

So yeah, I'm not buying it.

[Radical Rat]

Note that DDS is claiming to act during both Noon and Night. Every other role we know of that acts during the Night/Noon phases acts during ONE of them. The only exceptions we've seen are Math, who acts during the "day," and MMR/PPF who were both passive.

And this is why I have been incredibly skeptical of mastina's role claim!

Okay but I only act at Noon, and CSF only acts at Night, even though her action remains "active" through the Noon. Add Meuh only acting at Noon and that's at Least three players all matching the idea that PRs act during only one phase, and only you deviating.

[Radical Rat]

I don't think a single person pushing me has an opinion on DDS/MMR interactions

If you're Traitor, you wouldn't have known anyway, so it doesn't matter to me.

[Radical Rat]

Kinda like your theory about conversion?

[Radical Rat]

Being serious though, yes, it involves conjecture, but it makes sense based on what we do know. MMR brought it up as pure WIFOM, and I do not put stock into that. But with the interactions around that post, and the oddity of the blessing mechanic, it lines up. MMR may or may not have known what they were saying was true. In all likelihood they didn't know, at least not for sure, since otherwise that runs afoul of the rule against claiming scum with other players. But the post itself isn't the issue for me.

[Radical Rat]

Also the notion of how the blessing works design-wise. As a reward for Town making a mislim, that's really weird. As a warning for scum that something's up and to steer clear of those slots, that makes sense.

[Radical Rat]

Enchant push bad

[Radical Rat]

Enchant is very difficult to make concrete reads on one way or another. Sometimes you can catch him slipping up, but usually it's just vibe based, and right now he's got Town vibes to me. Not something I can really put into less ambiguous words, sorry. But I won't vote him today.

[Radical Rat]

It really is strange that there's so many people not voting this late in the day

[Radical Rat]

Like, surely by now we should all have SOME idea of who we think is scum, right? And this close to deadline is not the time to be holding back votes.

[Radical Rat]

I just looked at the VC, didn't verify whether people voted after, my bad.

I don't really feel strongly about Ydrasse. I thought StD was Town while he was here, so Ydrasse inherited that read, but she has pretty much just been actively avoiding playing the game.

I'd be willing to compromise there I suppose

[Radical Rat]

I can't tell if you're being serious, do you actually think T-Bone quoting the wrong post is scummy or are you just being pissy about him scumreading you?

[Radical Rat]

It's MY role that gave you that message T-Bone. It's in my original claim, that I already quoted and bolded when this came up the first time.

I DO think DDS's claim is bullshit, but it's not because of a conflict with the message I send and the message they send.

[Radical Rat]

DDS is claiming a variation on Watcher where their target receives the results instead of them. I think this in itself is a plausible ability, but the circumstances around it don't make sense, particularly the overlap with CSF's Watcher-type role, and the ability to act at both Noon and Night contradicting the claimed flavor, and every other known PR.

My message essentially just updates the target on their current status. It's not an investigative ability.

[Radical Rat]

particularly the overlap with CSF's Watcher-type role,

I also see zero conflict with CSF's role

There's not an issue with more than one 'watcher'-type effects being in the game

The actual effect of my role is very easily confirmable if that's something that people want

You both perform the same basic function of determining if something happened to a target. Your claim is more powerful, but it's still peculiar to me that multiple roles would serve the same utility simultaneously.

If CSF only worked at Night and you only worked at Noon, or vice versa, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But CSF is claiming to set a target during Night and receive results until next Night. And you're claiming to actively choose a target and send results for both Night and Noon. It pushes the claims from being complementary to contradictory in my mind.

[Radical Rat]

...wait a second

RR protects from burns, which seem to happen at Noon
I give someone a self-watch ability

Hypothetical: we have the ability to learn *quite a lot* about the setup by having every town-aligned PR agree to target the same person tonight

Someone please tell me why that's a horrible idea

If the target happens to be scum, they can lie about the results.
Everyone who isn't the target is guaranteed to be safe for whatever scum wants to do, including the involved PRs.

[Radical Rat]

T-Bone
Professotic
JunkoChan
CSF
Meuh
Enchant
Porkens et al.
PPF
Ydrasse
Firebringer
MathBlade/DDS

Enchant is the lowest one on the list that I'd consider to be a townread.

[Radical Rat]

A lot of that comes from my belief that MathBlade and DDS are entangled by the setup. I think both of them have played in ways that indicate they're opposing scum, so they both go to the bottom, but if one of them does manage to flip Town, I'll believe the other must be as well.

[Radical Rat]

How would I, as a hypothetical Lunar Cultist, have converted T-Bone during a Noon phase? Unless you think I converted him during the night Prof died and we schemed together to fake a burn protection after that?

[Radical Rat]

I think the check should be on PPF also. If they turn out to be Moon, then that's almost a clear, barring MMR deciding to claim a guilty on their partner for......... reasons?

[Radical Rat]

I think the check should be on PPF also. If they turn out to be Moon, then that's almost a clear,

barring MMR deciding to claim a guilty on their partner for......... reasons

?

WUT

MMR claimed a soft guilty on you with the Loyal thing. You know this. As such, MMR faking a guilty on their partner is the only way you can be Lunar scum. This is exceedingly unlikely, therefore you turning out to be Moon-attuned is most likely an inno result.

[Radical Rat]

@Dangle, who do you think are MMRs buddies, because I’ve been pouring over their ISO as well as the VCs and I still can’t figure it out but what I do know is that since people are wrongly sr me, I know I’m probably not long for this game, so absolutely nothing would make me happier than limming one of their buddies, so if it’s not you, then please help me to do that. If my fate is to either to ultimately get either miselimed, misvigged or less likely nk’d, I’d feel less bummed about it if I took out scum on my way out.

Tbh you're unlikely to be Lunar imo so if you want to be townread, you should be hunting for Solar. That's the primary reason I don't townread you - I don't see you pushing that much, and your primary push lately has been DDS, who can't be Solar

Assuming PPF is Town, why would they care which scum they're pushing? Prioritizing appearances over taking whatever scum you can find is Not what I would consider to be a Town mindset.

[Radical Rat]

I'm not voting Porkens, and I strongly oppose doing so unless someone has a damn good case. Eliminating a player that isn't here, especially seemingly BECAUSE they aren't here... it's just a shitty thing to do and goes against the nature of the game.

[Radical Rat]

Either provide actual reasons Porkens slot is scum that are worth wagoning without a player occupying the slot, or eliminate someone who's actually here.

[Radical Rat]

Ah yes. I'm opposed to the idea of eliminating a player who literally is not here without a good reason, must mean we're buddies!

[Radical Rat]

My mind hasn't changed. DDS, MathBlade, Ydrasse, Firebringer, PPF are all better targets, because, excepting Ydrasse, they've all actually done scummy things and have evidence pointing toward them, and, including Ydrasse, they're all actually here and able to defend themselves if they choose to. I HAVE been pushing for DDS, who I've made no secret of being my preference today.

I am willing to compromise. I am not willing to compromise on a slot that literally cannot play the game, UNLESS someone has an actual reason to suspect they're scum.

[Radical Rat]

My mind hasn't changed. DDS, MathBlade, Ydrasse, Firebringer, PPF are all better targets, because, excepting Ydrasse, they've all actually done scummy things and have evidence pointing toward them, and, including Ydrasse, they're all actually here and able to defend themselves if they choose to. I HAVE been pushing for DDS, who I've made no secret of being my preference today.

I am willing to compromise. I am not willing to compromise on a slot that literally cannot play the game, UNLESS someone has an actual reason to suspect they're scum.

why didn't you vote ydrasse when she had 5 votes then?

Because without a deadline I felt no need to settle on a wagon I didn't fully believe in yet.

[Radical Rat]

My mind hasn't changed. DDS, MathBlade, Ydrasse, Firebringer, PPF are all better targets, because, excepting Ydrasse, they've all actually done scummy things and have evidence pointing toward them, and, including Ydrasse, they're all actually here and able to defend themselves if they choose to. I HAVE been pushing for DDS, who I've made no secret of being my preference today.

I am willing to compromise. I am not willing to compromise on a slot that literally cannot play the game, UNLESS someone has an actual reason to suspect they're scum.

we already went to the moon and back about all of those, not happening, care to share with the class something that we have missed?

I don't think we did go "to the moon and back" about any of them. What I've observed happening is a wagon starts growing, then falls apart because there's no urgency without a deadline, even when most people seem okay with it flipping. I'm guilty of this too, as mentioned with not voting Ydrasse earlier, but if need be there is no doubt in my mind that we could settle on one of them.

[Radical Rat]

It's not like we're flipping an innocent child, we're flipping a slot that could be scum. It's a slot that has never been active at any point of the game, why can't it be scum?

My issue is not that I don't think Porkens slot can be scum. In fact, if Porkens hadn't already requested replacement, I'd be fairly amenable to this wagon. Might even join it if deadline were still ticking. My issue is that I think it is lazy and wrong to eliminate a slot because they're not here. If there's an actual case beyond that, then it may or may not be worth eliminating anyway, though my preference would still at least be not to hammer until the replacement arrives and says whatever they're going to say. But for us to sit here and go "Welp, might as well eliminate the slot that won't talk back!" is unproductive and unfair.

[Radical Rat]

First, I'd like to say that just because we got lucky and Porkens flipped scum doesn't mean eliminating that slot was the correct thing to do. I stand by everything I said about that.

[Radical Rat]

With that out of the way, I think that role existed to nerf mine. Giving me fake targets to heal, or to cause TvT counterclaiming if someone I didn't heal claimed to have been healed. It explains why I was left alone Noon 1, despite seemingly being a direct counter to Solar.

Also, I got burned last night, probably since Solar lost their ability to interfere with me. This does seem to confirm the kill as being distinct from the burn though, since Math is dead now.

[Radical Rat]

No idea what burning actually does, but I guess we'll find out soon enough. Waiting on Meg to get back to me if I can self-target or not

[Radical Rat]

CSF, I don't suppose you happened to be targeting me? I assume not since you agreed I should be eliminated, but just in case

[Radical Rat]

Math flip means DDS Town probably. No idea what he was talking about with his role implying traitors/recruitment.

[Radical Rat]

CSF would have been the easy way to prove I'm Town, but we can do this another way.

Counterclaim me. I know my role is real. Porkens' role only makes sense if there's a real role that they're countering. So if you think I'm scum, then there has to be a Townie that actually does remove burns. Let them speak up.

[Radical Rat]

With that out of the way, I think that role existed to nerf mine. Giving me fake targets to heal, or to cause TvT counterclaiming if someone I didn't heal claimed to have been healed. It explains why I was left alone Noon 1, despite seemingly being a direct counter to Solar.

Also, I got burned last night, probably since Solar lost their ability to interfere with me. This does seem to confirm the kill as being distinct from the burn though, since Math is dead now.

so toogeloo slot knows you so much that they sent the message "your burn has been healed" to the same target you "healed"

No. I sent that real message to T-Bone, because T-Bone was actually attempted to be burned.

[Radical Rat]

There's no evidence that burns are real, but there is actual evidence that burns are a red herring.

I know burns are real, because I got burned AFTER Porkens flipped. I can't prove that since you weren't on me, but I know it, so I'm playing with that knowledge in mind.

[Radical Rat]

so no one else got a message because...?

I don't know. Maybe Porkens got blocked somehow. Maybe they just didn't do anything since it's a revolving door slot.

[Radical Rat]

It'll also be pretty easy to confirm myself once someone else inevitably gets burned. Though at that point Solar probably just kills me before I can

[Radical Rat]

We meant at this day start.

I mean, I targeted Meuh, since she's a claimed investigative known to be targeting a suspicious slot, but there wouldn't be a message for her to have received since I was the one who got burned.

[Radical Rat]

We meant at this day start.

I mean, I targeted Meuh, since she's a claimed investigative known to be targeting a suspicious slot, but there wouldn't be a message for her to have received since I was the one who got burned.

Your claim breaks down a bit since you getting notified of being burned requires solar to have a second copy of Porkens' role, since you protected meuh.

I got notified because I was burned for real is my assumption. Why would Porkens give a fake notification for something that doesn't normally give notifications?

[Radical Rat]

Can someone summarize the implication of PPF receiving a message meuh targeted them? I can't quite remember what that means for meuh's claim, DDS' claim, or CSF's.

It means DDS's ability is real, and Meuh targeted PPF.

Says nothing about CSF.