Echoing this post, bolding for emphasis. I found Titus and Imaginality to both be very scummy while reading and I think that Morning Tweet's idea makes a lot of sense here.In post 960, Morning Tweet wrote:It doesn't work like that. I disagree that town always has a town-motivated reason for what they're doing, and you just have to find it. I think that there is an insane amount of overlap between town posting and scum posting to the point where everything is almost a guess -- at least on D1In post 871, Ranger wrote:Cases are to make an argument.In post 849, Titus wrote:Ranger, no one is going to towncase imaginality. That's not how it works. I'm not spending my time arguing about things I know to be true. It helps precisely no one. Casing someone means being open to feedback and I'm well NOT.
A case is presenting a viewpoint.
A case CAN be simply gathering your beliefs and opening them up to criticism (what you're saying is a case) but I'll bet you most players don’t share that definition, and would instead say the primary purpose of a case is toconvinceplayers on a read, by presenting the reasons for the read to be true.
If imaginality was truly conftown to you, you wouldn't have needed to use exclusively breadcrumbs of masonry to defend him from the Suspicion.
You would have seen the merits by which he was town, and been able to argue his towniness from your lens of knowing he is town. You would still breadcrumb, but you wouldn’t rely exclusively on breadcrumbs to defend him.
You didn’t, because he's not actually conftown to you and you know it. You didn’t see his posts through the lens ofknowinghe's town and the resulting knowledge letting you see how his posts are town. If you saw so much as a single thing not role related to townread him by, you'd have pointed it out when defending him, with the breadcrumbs as secondary.
Instead, you instantly defaulted to relying exclusively on breadcrumbs to try and avert the wagon on him, because you can't see him as town off of play due to him not being conftown.
I know I'm right and you know I'm right. You might be frustrated by me ruining your gambit, but I am frustrated by your gambitprotecting scum.
But, anyway, that aside. Here's the post.
Titus' second post of the game, and it was in response to a 4-vote wagon on imagineIn post 364, Titus wrote:Oh boy, do I really want to read or
VOTE: Frog
P.S. imaginality is town k thx
I mean, yeah, weird that she didn't at bare minimum let imagine do his thing or defend him from an angle other than "We're both conf!town".I could see Titus and imagine's wincon's being intertwined on like a 2 person team split from the main group(s), maybe.It makes absolutely no sense for her to claim masons with say a mafia scumbuddy. It also doesn't make sense to reveal that you're both masons at the beginning of the game as actual masons?? Why wouldn't you just reveal that imagine is a mason, at worst?
Maybe they're like a delinquent duo and they had a gameplan to pose as masons from the start. It's sketchy. It also could be lazy. Town can do that, it can be a weird scum gambit, I don't know
i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]
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Typically, reading from an outsider's perspective makes things like this easier to spot. I had the same feeling as Gimli, but I understand that things are different when they're happening live and the player is directly engaging with you. I wouldn't suspect Gimli for this.In post 1186, Gamma Emerald wrote:In post 1181, Gimli wrote:IDK it's been forever since I read, I'm here later to talk to people
I honestly think if you'd actually read you'd know and understand why Frog got voted out
he was all bark and no bite, with a really bad attitude-
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Having called it a crumb was incorrect, my mistake. Crumbs early are standard. She softed the role (strongly, and then outright claimed) to reduce pressure on Imaginality when there wasn't yet a significant wagon there. I believe that someone who knew Imaginality was town would have faith that others would correctly see him as town, and someone who knew Imaginality was scum would be more likely to believe that others would correctly see him as scum. I believe that feeling the need to claim her role early shows which mindset she had.In post 1190, MathBlade wrote:I am sorry I don’t follow your train of logic Prince.
I don’t think Titus is evil here. She’s pretty experienced and the site meta is to crumb masons early.
Titus in general likes being masons but hates finding them as they screw with her reads.
Is there something I am missing here?-
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Sounds alright to me.In post 1202, Ranger wrote:
Let me run you through the process I have.In post 1193, Enchant wrote:I don't really agree that psychiatrist is powerful PR, but it points we have Serial Killer.
We know there was a Psychiatrist. Psychiatrists specifically cure Serial Killers.
We have two nightkills last night, indicating a serial killer was active last night.
We have a duo, Titus + imaginality, who have claimed masons, but whose play does not match that of town masons.
My conclusion is Titus and imaginality are likely a serial killer duo, who likely could have been converted into a vigilante duo had Frogsterking targeted them.
I would happily vote imaginality as a result. There's arguments to be made on holding back. Leashing the serial killers is potentially viable; the theory of them being 3p, while sound, is not 100% definitive, and usually it's better to hunt for scum than to hunt for 3p. I feel a discussion is warranted, but will happily park my vote on anyone with a high chance of being nontown. What type of scum we eliminate is less important; eliminating scum regardless of type is the goal.
VOTE: Imaginality-
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"mod confirmed" is just as easy to lie about as any other fakeclaim. This makes no sense. Why have multiple people said this?In post 1296, kitten around wrote:I think this looks tvt to me. I also believe Titus’ mason claim and I don’t think she’d likely use the phrase “mod confirmed” if scum - especially how much she’s insisting on it.-
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Owl's 906 tone not aligning with their later conclusions is strange, I agree. I don't like their current scumreads either, I think Cat Scratch Fever is town. I would like to see more from them though, I don't feel confident in voting there.
Elements is probably town. Their day 1 approach is consistently curious and engaging with the thread in a way that feels like town trying to solve. The series of questions starting in 490, for example. Similarly, the discussion with Frogsterking starting in 503. Both just give the impression of uninformed town. I don't think Elements is a good vote.-
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On board with all of these.In post 1545, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:New reads: I think KittyTacky, UltimateGamer (Ythan), and Gimli (Vaxkiller) are town. Kitten around is scum.-
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Not sure what to expect here. As someone who knows Titus, would you expect that it's likely for her to crumb in her very first post as scum and lock herself in to a specific claim?In post 1599, MathBlade wrote:
I am not sure if it is aware but crumbing certain roles is common on here.In post 1597, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
Well, beyond fullclaims just inspiring a bit more confidence than a flat "we're masons", there's the fact that Titus's claim of N5 Suicide Bomber recontextualizes theirIn post 1596, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Like they've now full claimed, but I don't think anything in their full claim made them any townier?very firstmessage into a big crumb:
This one doubts a suicide bomber fakeclaim would be thought up as soon as THAT, especially the oddly specific combination of being an N4 bomber and a mason. Of course there's always room for Insane Shenanigans And Masterful Manipulation but. This one feels a lot better about it as a whole, it'd say.In post 127, Titus wrote:Things need to go BOOM!
I suspect that whatever Titus’s alignment unalive bombing is a part of it. It’s a matter of if she is actually an unalive bomber who is town or has some nasty evil explosion. It wouldn’t be above Titus if scum pick their roles since one of her favorites is when she was an unalive bomber and scum and town kept counter claiming her for no reason
There's not a lot of benefit that I can see to claiming suicide bomber as scum even in the event that it's true, because the role can only be confirmed by the player's death.-
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Clarify which unpopular read of yours is the reason why you're getting run up, please.In post 1822, kitten around wrote:This is awesome. I’m basically getting run up because I apparently had an unpopular reaad-
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Do you have any posts you can quote that explain the origin of your belief that the primary reason for you getting run up was that you had an unpopular read? Where did this idea come from? My understanding of the primary reason for why you were getting run up was that you weren't scumhunting and didn't have a town mindset and it had nothing to do with any unpopular reads.In post 1962, kitten around wrote:
I’m assuming it’s either because I defended QA or because I misunderstood Titus’ claim but I know at least one person posited me as buddies with them and Titus is voting me for apparently being a UG buddy now? lol. I’m extremely fascinated how people are even coming up with these wild takes.In post 1851, Prince of Paterson wrote:
Clarify which unpopular read of yours is the reason why you're getting run up, please.In post 1822, kitten around wrote:This is awesome. I’m basically getting run up because I apparently had an unpopular reaad
I would like to know what made you believe otherwise, because for someone who believes strongly that there is scum pushing your wagon, it doesn't feel like you have made any real attempts to even understand why people are voting you. That to me seems like it would be a prerequisite to determining who is pushing you maliciously.
Treating all of the suspicion as an undifferentiated block, being unsure who has what reasons, and being unsure what the reasons even are, seems more likely to be a result of scum knowing that the push is all coming from town. In the eyes of the mafia, town are all the same and the details of the reasons don't matter because the result is correct. Believing strongly that there is scum on the wagon but still treating the people on the wagon as interchangeable is at best negligent from town, but much more likely to be a result of viewing the game from a scum perspective.-
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Reasoning behind McMenno? I don't think believing that there is at least one scum voting you qualifies as a confident scumread because again, it doesn't appear that you have read or understood the reasons why people are voting you. In order to determine who is scum voting you, it would be prudent of you to investigate on that subject. Your lack of interest in doing so is suspicious to me.In post 1967, kitten around wrote:As I already told to Gimli, fair enough but I didn’t have any confident scumreads but now I do and it thinks it’s extremely naive to think there’s not at least one scum voting me and rn, McMenno is my best guess for that.-
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Explain why you were willing to resist the wagon earlier and call it garbage and search for other options when you hadn't really read the slot? Or had you read before and came to a different conclusion this time? What specific posts from kitten did you previously find towny and what made you more willing to reassess now?In post 2159, Gimli wrote:I'm scumleaning KA after ISOing, it's taking a lot of safe stances from the first day and their reads don't feel maleable like a towny. I haven't read the entirety of it but I can see why people want it dead.-
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My vote is probably not leaving Kitten Around until they're eliminated, I think they're extremely likely to be scum. Thanks for the explanation, Gimli, that's fine I suppose. I'd appreciate if you help campaign for votes on Kitten since you seem to be better at that than me.
As an aside, I find that it's very rare that all of the scum are in the lurkers. There might be one or two, and they're often worth eliminating, but I believe games are won or lost on being able to sort out which of the low content players are town. Every town that you can find in the lurkers removes one miselimination that scum were likely counting on being available to them.-
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The main reason I townread Ranger early was because I believed they were on the right track with Gamma, Imaginality, and Titus. If Gamma was town, then the most I could say is that Ranger is unlikely to be aligned with Titus and Imaginality. But if they are a serial killer duo or something similar, then Ranger wouldn't be aligned with them anyway.
All that is to say that I don't have any reason to townread Ranger and I agree that the defense of kitten around was suspicious.-
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How are they bizarre? Have you been reading the game? Did you really think Cat Scratch Fever was likely to be eliminated today?In post 2409, Quiet Owl wrote:bizarre choices for nightkills, but i guess it's helpful for us? saves us from mis-eliminating catscratch today.
the fact that they didn't go for the top posters yesterday worries me that someone there is scum.-
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Are all people who are not universally townread likely eliminations? Cat Scratch Fever was one of the first pushers of kitten around. Did you take that into account in your read of her?In post 2422, Quiet Owl wrote:you think csf was universally townread?-
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Though it doesn't matter now, I don't see how anything in that imaginality post was compelling. If it weren't for the mason claim I would be voting imaginality until he was eliminated, the same as kitten around. With the mason claim, I'm still tempted. Disregarding the claim, he's been the scummiest poster of the game to me by a good margin.-
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As this is a bastard game, I would caution against making too many setup-based assumptions. It's possible the mafia team was oversized but had to sacrifice some number of members in phase ??? as a power balance. It seems unlikely to me that there were 3 town-directed mafia kills at once. Alignment changes or false flips are also a possibility.
Unless someone is planning to claim those kills.-
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The strong defense from Furtive of KA while insisting on a McMenno wagon instead seems unlikely to be helpful to scum. I'm willing to consider the slot as town.
Phoenix, you're claiming that Furtive had the power to summon a player from out of game to join him in a hydra?-
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I would like to remind those who may not have seen it, or those who have forgotten, of this note.
I don't know if that only applies to an early mass claim or if it includes ones that may typically happen late in the game.-
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Doubtful that Phoenix, Gimli, or KittyTacky are scum. Titus resolves tonight. The pool here is fairly narrow, in my view.-
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Reread, actually, and not as confident on Gimli. I forgot that I had some issues with the way he progressed on kitten around. He was also very quick to back off Enchant when I mentioned a post of his that I thought could be town-indicative.-
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Spoiler:
Extreme jumps in confidence like this make me nervous. There's not really posts that support the changes in reads. He townreads over the claim, calls the wagon garbage, then later suddenly calls them the scummiest poster in the game and starts solving around them being scum and Ranger defending them. This confidence seems to disappear later, though, and he doesn't push for them at all the next day.
I had similar issues with his progression on kitten around. I'm not willing to call Gimli locktown. That said, I think his claim and play today feels more like it comes from town.-
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A moderator gave me a role pm that says town on it.In post 2667, Titus wrote: Prince, why are you town, aside from VCA?-
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Might be fine. I think Ranger is the most likely of the three. Not_Mafia probably does have to die, though. When looking back at day 2, it felt like Quiet Owl was a counterwagon to scum at times, but that's the main reason to townread them. It's possible that town was just running up multiple scum.In post 2674, Gimli wrote: A PLAN: we flip NM, titus targets ranger, ranger targets quiet owl. if anyone is alive tomorrow we eliminate them. that might end the game.
Titus, if you're guaranteed flipping tonight, can you confirm again now that your townflip locks imaginality as town? I don't want any ambiguity here.-
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Are you ignoring my question intentionally?In post 2678, Titus wrote: I disapprove of a Quiet Owl elimination.-
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Not including Neighbor in the precise and detailed full claim while listing every other modifier and explaining them in detail may indicate that Ranger's claim was fake. It's an odd omission, and Ranger seems like the type to value completeness.-
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Dropping one single modifier while copying and relaying the accurate role, when the rest of it came with links and descriptions, is a lot more unlikely than forgetting one while composing a fake role. In the former case she is transcribing the role directly from the source, and I don't see why that would result in forgetting one part of it when she was going to efforts to ensure the claim was in full.-
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Due to the lack of clarification from Titus, if she continues to not confirm this, I will assume that imaginality is not confirmed town by her townflip tonight. Please clearly and definitively correct this if wrong. Now is not the time to be ambiguous if you're town.-
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Right. She's mentioned people "receiving a gun" several times. Does anyone know what she's talking about?In post 2692, Summon The Phoenix wrote:
Guns? I thought you were using 'gun' to refer to night targeting i.e. nightkills, but the phrase 'receive a gun' implies otherwise.In post 2691, Titus wrote: Here's the plot hole I have. Given no one claimed to receive a gun, it's safe to infer scum shot every person who received a gun and all other shots, minus the vig, are the SK.
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Explain why you did not mention you were compulsive in your "full claim"?In post 1490, Titus wrote: I suppose it's time for me to full claim.
I am
1) a neighbor with imaginality
2) I know imaginality to be town
3) I am a night 4 suicide bomber
4) imaginality is a night five rolecop-
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Alright, I have an idea of what Titus may be talking about, but I want to hear her explanation first. Nobody else mentioned the subject of receiving guns, but she's talking about it like it's fact. I think there's a possibility that she knows more than she should. I'd prefer if nobody else share thoughts on the mechanical side of this subject until Titus does.-
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My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.
Both are likely biased in their assessments, but Ranger's has more of an agenda of pushing one narrative while sweeping another under the rug.-
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Agreed, that most likely results in a win. I have at least 3 questions that I'm waiting on Titus to answer first, though.-
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Not_Mafia, who do you think is scum?-
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Not including it when claiming in the neighborhood makes sense, thanks.In post 2716, Ranger wrote:
It was taken from the neighborhood and manually typed out there. I didn't include neighbor in the neighborhood because it wasIn post 2690, Summon The Phoenix wrote:It's possible that she thought it wasn't important, but then again why underline each specific word in the role?in the neighborhood.
In the neighborhood I wasn't aiming to get the closest possible paraphrase.
In the neighborhood I was aiming to convey the relevant information.
That's why I used the links. I didn't need to explain the wording of combined (because I linked it) or vig (because I linked it) or doctor (because I linked it) or neighbor (because I was in the neighborhood). I did need to explain Solo/Duo because as far as I know, xyzzy made those modifiers up for this game. (There's no wiki article for them as far as I could tell.)-
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Your point that Not_Mafia probably is not scum who tried to save you as a partner is also fair.-
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Thank you for the answers.
I did not receive a gun, but something about my role (I won't elaborate right now) leads me to believe that it would make sense for the Inventor handing out specifically guns to be a possibility in this setup.
I'm not familiar with how the Inventor role is typically utilized. If it's very standard here for it to hand out guns, then it's possible Titus just recognized that and quickly came to the conclusion that was what happened and that was the cause of the kills. I mostly was surprised that she came to that conclusion without that much evidence, and the additional information I have makes me believe she's likely to be on the right track. It made me wonder if she had additional information that caused her toknowthat was what happened.
It might not matter since she allegedly will die tonight, but I thought it was curious.-
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However, there were two deaths each normal night. If you believe there to be a SK, that accounts for all deaths outside of the ??? phase. It seems thateitherEnchant was handing out guns every night and shooting the people who received them, or there is a SK, not both. The ??? phase seems unlikely to have come from town.-
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I find it annoying that Titus says that she shouldn't need to clarify her role because she says she has made it clear multiple times. When actually, twice now today, she has changed her claim from what it was previously despite saying earlier it was a fullclaim. I don't know why she expects that we should take her at her word.
It feels like she keeps changing the claim to whatever is currently convenient to her. Why would imaginality be a night 5 rolecop whilealsoLovers with Titus who isalsoa compulsive night 4 suicide bomber? He always dies before getting to use his rolecop? Why has this never come up until now? Why did she earlier this day phase insist that imaginality would be conftown on her flip if he's going to die anyway?-
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Now both are insisting on a massclaim for vague reasons when the mod explicitly warned us that massclaiming would probably be end poorly for town.-
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Giving this as a rationale for massclaiming is negligent or malicious. If Not_Mafia is scum, then there is no reason to believe that he is telling the truth that he received the hammer power and that it wasn't something he had all along. Saying that his own word proves him as town is, at best, an extreme lack of critical thinking.In post 2754, imaginality wrote: Pedit: Not_Mafia's response to my question is more reason to mass claim as it proves NM town (given the disloyal inventor) if we can rule out them having received the hammer via a bus drive or redirect.
Enchant is a disloyal inventor so couldn'tdirectlyvend to teammates.
It's possible if the remaining mafia (if any) have a bus driver or redirector that Enchant could vend to player A and then get the hammer into NM's hands. It's also possible that the town bus driver got it into NM's hands by chance (though that would imply scum gave it to someone they didn't target for the nightkill, or that the nightkill target was protected (but that doesn't fit with the two kills per night)).
Personally I think it reasonably plausible scum Enchant gave the hammer to town NM with intent of getting more town cred when claiming later. But mass claim here will certainly help narrow down the possibilities.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Do you have a reason you're appealing to the crowd in this manner? If you find it suspicious, why not make the case and push it? This seems unusual to me.
Not_Mafia was a replacement, so I believe that it makes more sense that it was something given to him midgame, and Enchant was allowed to flavor his inventions. It seems very fitting that he would give Not_Mafia that power, as they both have a joy for hammering.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Reasonable. It didn't come across like you were looking for more information, it sounded more like you wanted others to come to the conclusion you had. I may have read too much into it, though. It surprised me as an approach, is all.In post 2766, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: Like cut me a little slack here as I try to engage with this game, open invitations for engagement are a great tool for this why are you pressed about that?-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Except imaginality just said that neither of you can be saved by a protective role. Get your stories straight.In post 2767, Titus wrote:
Disloyal doctor. I expected a protective role if I was cleared. I just didn't expect it to be scum. Yes it doesn't make sense from a design perspective but it punishes scum for protecting me.In post 2760, Prince of Paterson wrote: I find it annoying that Titus says that she shouldn't need to clarify her role because she says she has made it clear multiple times. When actually, twice now today, she has changed her claim from what it was previously despite saying earlier it was a fullclaim. I don't know why she expects that we should take her at her word.
It feels like she keeps changing the claim to whatever is currently convenient to her. Why would imaginality be a night 5 rolecop whilealsoLovers with Titus who isalsoa compulsive night 4 suicide bomber? He always dies before getting to use his rolecop? Why has this never come up until now? Why did she earlier this day phase insist that imaginality would be conftown on her flip if he's going to die anyway?-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Am I the only one who has issues with Titus and her claim?-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Make me a promise that if they live through the night you don't allow them to change their story again and make excuses, and elim them like we should have on day 2.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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A concern I have is that we don't know when endgame is.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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By logic, yes. I don't trust people to act logically. I'm asking you and Gimli since I doubt all three of us die and you're the two I expect might listen.In post 2782, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: I mean...
Titus is a claimed compulsive sui bomber. If she doesn't die, we kill her tomorrow on principle no?
I thought Titus and imaginality were the scummiest slots in the game since the time I started reading the thread when I replaced in at the start of day 2. There was a theory for a while that they were a serial killer lover duo which still seems likely to me.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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In post 2754, imaginality wrote: I agree with Titus that given we're both dying tonight, it's time to mass claim.(I checked with the mod just in case one or both of us could somehow be saved by a doc tonight but nope)-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Lovers were claimed. If we flip Titus today and she's telling the truth, imaginality dies as well.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Explanation makes sense then. I read it as "we would flip imaginality after", misunderstood.In post 2796, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
Ouais, je sais. I included it in the write up I just did.In post 2794, Prince of Paterson wrote: Lovers were claimed. If we flip Titus today and she's telling the truth, imaginality dies as well.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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Can you explain how a massclaim would verify Not_Mafia? I also have not forgotten about KittyTacky. His early posting was town and I doubt his alignment has changed.-
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Prince of Paterson he/himGoonhe/him
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