Stars Aligned II - Game Over!

[semioldguy]

I think that waiting to claim until a later day will reveal more verifiable liars.

I don't see this. Could you explain how you arrive to this conclusion?

For instance, players who were the creators of noise in earlier days may not be around in later days to verify their noise and target.

An example would be warders, they create noise, but their very action makes them vulnerable to both cultists and killers. Meaning they have an increased possibility of dying before their targets. This is also part of the logic we used in the first game of claiming ward actions. If a target is warded, or if someone lies about warding, the warder becomes an easy scum lynch if that target dies later without having claimed other noises. The safety of that player is ensured while they don't hear other noises. If we are waiting until later to reveal things like this it would be much easier for the scum to get around in their own claims.

I didn't hear noise.

[semioldguy]

@Nicodermus
Yes. Using the ward action creates noise for yourself.

[semioldguy]

Somehow I don't think dramonic would be foolish enough to try that again considering the previous game and enough returning players. OR are you that foolish dramonic?

Regardless, he should have an eye kept on him no doubt.

[semioldguy]

If we are waiting until later to reveal things like this it would be much easier for the scum to get around in their own claims.

not true.

with 2 or 3 nights worth of interaction, especially if town players focus more on investigation than ward and resurrect, the scum wont be able to figure out what they can get away with claiming as easily.

Without any attempt to explain why or what specifically is bad about claiming noises, I don't know how you would expect me to agree or ever be swayed to your side.

People shouldn't be claiming investigation, or resurrect or any specific action with full details. So this argument from you doesn't address the point in my mind. I am open to the discussion on warding-claims. Though I fail to see how claiming noise is bad and you don't address this at all. Without even going deep into the positives it is clear to me that it provides helpful information to the town for making decisions for our actions.

[semioldguy]

Additionally, as this mistake was made last game, players should probably not use the investigate action tonight. As the action order is the same as it was in the previous game, players do not get bloody on any night from murders or the ritual until after investigation are resolved for that same night.

Actions dealing with blood take place in the following order:
Launder (removes blood)
Resuscitate or be resuscitated successfully (become bloody)
Investigate (find blood)
Murder (become bloody)
Ritual Resolves (become bloody)

You cannot find any murderers or players who participated in the ritual as bloody on either night zero or night one.

Investigation is like the war on drugs, a majority of the time it doesn't really do much of anything (since whoever gets bloody from doing something bad can always launder before they can next be investigated) but it's still necessary to do as to keep the killing people in check forcing them to launder.

[semioldguy]

He could have gotten the insanity from Laundering as he says, which has to the worst possible night one play for either faction. Percy even advises against using this as an action for night zero in the Q&A section.

He could have gotten it from stalking, which means that he currently HAS to be town, since psychopathy cannot be taken as a first insanity. If this is the case he is likely being honest about his current insanity choice. He may be considering or planning to go murderer.

Or he could be fabricating this as to allow for an explanation of a future planned insanity gain as cult.

[semioldguy]

@iLord
Of the options I see, I'd put them in the following order of likeliness from most to least:

(1) Cult lying to explain a future insanity gain.
(2) Town that made a horrible Night Zero decision.
(3) Stalked night one in hopes of going Murderer.
(4) Cult that made a horrible Night Zero decision.

I find three unlikely, as potential murderers would not want to draw this sort of attention to themselves. Four is unlikely because I can't imagine that cult wouldn't discuss each of their night actions prior to doing them.

@animorpherv1
You mentioned it being part of an unconventional way to help town. If you were surprised at the insanity gain from laundering, in which way did you imagine your action helping the town when you selected it?

[semioldguy]

If he is covering up a future insanity, that could be validated if someone has Occult Books and used them on Ani.

On Night 0?

They would use their books tonight, since insanity gained from the ritual happens after Research (or whatever the name for using occult books has changed to this game).

LOL@ Chaco

[semioldguy]

Something I just noted from the OP that may change our warding decisions.

Those who Ward AUTOMATICALLY hear noise, no matter what else happens.

This is the same as the previous game.

[semioldguy]

@Chaco (and animorpherz1 too I guess)
That explanation makes a lot more sense than laundering (but only because any explanation would make more sense than laundering). If he did stalk, then he MUST be town currently. I am still not certain of his honesty now though.

[semioldguy]

Would 1 not be just as unlikely as 4, considering the excuse that Ani used?

No. I would expect cult to discuss/coordinate their actions each night, but not necessarily to discuss all the plays/posts they make in game.

Case in point, Percy's last game. Daytalking scum made a boneheaded move and didn't consult their scumbuddy in their quicktopic prior to making it.

[semioldguy]

So, if Adel gets killed, kill Ani? But for today leave him alone?

I'm for currently looking elsewhere. I am against making a solid statement of what to do with Animorpherv1 if Adel is or is not successfully/unsuccessfully murdered. The bridge will be crossed when we come to it. Deciding those things now or in advance is speculative and not beneficial to town.

[semioldguy]

@Ilord- Awesome question. I did not think of that one. So the assigned robber can rob 2 graves if needed....good. And we can force someone to rob TWO graves to make sure they did no other actions. Excellent for future planning.

This doesn't ensure them taking other actions. My interpretation of the rule is that every grave rob action is a free action. So you can rob any number of graves and still be left with another action to use.

[semioldguy]

So, if Adel gets killed, kill Ani? But for today leave him alone?

I'm for currently looking elsewhere. I am against making a solid statement of what to do with Animorpherv1 if Adel is or is not successfully/unsuccessfully murdered. The bridge will be crossed when we come to it.

Deciding those things now or in advance is speculative and not beneficial to town.

So if Adel isn't killed then what does that prove? What does it prove if he is killed?

See the bolded above. It doesn't prove anything at all except that Adel died or didn't die. Hence: speculative.

[semioldguy]

You gain the insanity regardless of whether your stalk action is successful or not. Please read the rules again, everyone. Emphasis on Adel reading the rules again, this is at least the third one you've gotten wrong or needed clarified that was plainly in the rules post.

[semioldguy]

@Adel
I understand why most claiming can be bad, even warding (though I see warding as having both pros and cons for town in being claimed, and that it tilts in favor of town rather than scum). Other actions aside from warding shouldn't be claimed at all unless met with a scum-positive/likely result.

What I don't understand is why claiming noises each day is bad. I do not see the disadvantage to town in doing this. Please explain or provide an example of why this is bad. I asked already and have been ignored. You repeating that you are against it is not an explanation.

[semioldguy]

I am opposed to breaking games. When breaking the game was brought up last Stars Aligned game I was opposed to doing it. In other games when I have seen a breaking strategy that wins the game before it can be brought up in the thread, I PM the mod to point it out asking for a rules modification to prevent the game from being broken.

I am here to play mafia. I would argue that what you are suggesting is not

playing

to win because you aren't playing mafia, you are just going through motions and watching things happen.

[semioldguy]

mith's rule isn't "win the game" it's "

play

to win the game"

Following a plan to break a game is not playing in my opinion and I will have no part of it. The only person playing is the one who breaks it, everyone else is just following along and watching. What you are doing isn't playing the game and is not fun for any alignment from my perspective. It wouldn't be a fun win and it wouldn't be a fun loss. It isn't what I am at this site to do.

There are people I'm sure who do enjoy that sort of thing, clearly you being one of them. That's okay, everyone is entitled to their own way of what they find fun or why they play mafia.

If you insist on "breaking the game to win" instead of "playing to win" then I will respectfully ask to be replaced out, search for my own replacement, and avoid joining games with you in the future as you clearly are not here for the same reason that I am. It doesn't mean your way of playing or why you play is worse, but it keeps me from having fun, it doesn't make me better at playing the game, and I am not going to spend my time if it isn't necessary only to not enjoy the time I spend.

This discussion, right now, is extremely unenjoyable for me because it has nothing to do with playing the game.

[semioldguy]

Commune is not something the investigators do, the cult does that and every night (or every night they want to perform a night kill attempt)

Also I don't think asking animorpherv1 whether he still intends to kill Adel is actually useful. My guess is that if he wants to kill Adel he will say no anyway, otherwise someone who doesn't want Adel killed could just block the kill if they searched for a resuscitation kit.

My guess is that he probably won't kill Adel though, since his reasoning for wanting to kill Adel is no longer valid with Adel replacing out.

[semioldguy]

I was confusing Commune as being the name of performing the ritual (the name for commune last game was research).

[semioldguy]

I was at a convention these past two days. I've got some catching up to do, I'll make a post at the end of the day today to let you know how far I've come and some thoughts up to that point.

[semioldguy]

Phate's grandfatherly calls for fewer posts remind me of DDD's play in my first game on the site. He was scum. At present, I'm experiencing terrible deja vu, and I have a secret scumtell on Phate to match.

I was in the above mentioned game with Iecerint, and his play in this game does not deviate enough from my previous experience with him to think that he is scum here. In my opinion he played very anti-town and posted excessively as town previously and this fits his town play.

I don't like the wagon on Iecerint. It's an easy wagon to get on and I think the people on it should look elsewhere (if they are not scum themselves).

Vote: Nicodemus

iLord is spot on about the unvote post. It is a good tell and one I really like.

Nicodemus' defense of the same post is also both poor and scummy.

People should come back to this wagon.

[semioldguy]

... But I also noticed some things I didn't like in his answers to iLord. Nico is hyper-aware that his actions might be viewed as scummy.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said I thought his response regarding his unvote post was scummy.

[semioldguy]

Sorry, I was V/LA and though I had informed my other games, I must have forgotten to inform Percy.

I did not resuscitate any of Phate, Hayker or CSL.

I heard noise last night. People started noise claims at the beginning of the day, but it seems to have stopped. I think people should be claiming noises still.

If CSL was protected by scum, then it makes the most sense that CSL is scum. There is no benefit for scum otherwise. rewq455 and evilsnail have both said as much already. This seems very likely.

Vote: CSL

CSL flipping scum would make me think that everyone murdered was town. Any of those three dead players would have been better choices to save than CSL if they were cult.

I am suspicious of Phate's claim as well, mostly due to no one coming forward. A successful resuscitation would not be the only explanation for a missing cult kill. If the cult attempted to kill one of the murders, the murder would have happened first thus hiding the cult's target. The only hole in this line of thought in regards to Phate would be that a murdered ritual target keeps the cultists from being bloody.

I am suspicious of dramonic. He was on most of the wagons yesterday after they started to build, initially on Iecerint over Nicodemus until it appeared Nicodemus would be sure to get more support. He also focuses a lot on murderers.

This seems to actually be a problem with several people in the game. Focusing primarily on murderers is suspicious. I'll have to re-read to check who exactly is guilty of this. We shouldn't focus on just finding murderers, there are cult scum to find.

Also, checking for twitchy is not fool proof. The other voting insanities could be used to make it appear as the twitchy insanity when used properly. Close tabs should be kept on everyone with insanities and confirmable insanities should not allow a player to be dismissed at all. They could still be cult who can't even take psychopathy but still be needing insanities.

[semioldguy]

@Ellibereth
Why didn't you vote CSL at the beginning of the day, or as your first vote, if you intended to kill him but were unsuccessful?

[semioldguy]

Also in that case, I don't think we need to lynch CSL anymore - we just get him to max out his II's and he'll be useless to the Cultists tonight if he is one. Rather, we should lynch someone who doesn't have an insanity to max out today.

I disagree. If you think he is scum, you should want to lynch him. Town doesn't win by making scum not have a night action, we win when they are all dead. Also I don't think we should be aiming to lynch players with no insanities. Players with insanities would be more likely to flip scum than those without I'd think.

On the topic of insanities, I think players should be voting early and voting frequently on their suspects. I am a supporter of this normally, but here it has the additional benefit of potentially catching people trying to mask their insanities. Get some voting in!

[semioldguy]

Just looking back at last game (and also at this one) I don't think everyone will always remember all of their insanities to be able to keep track of what not to do. I don't think we should encourage people toward more infractions, it will likely lead to them screwing up down the line and getting modkilled.

@iLord
Lynching someone gets rid of the night action too.

I don't like when people suggest flimsy reasons for not lynching a player they see as scummy. Don't vote for a secondary suspect, vote for the primary one. Despite your activity today, you haven't placed a vote on anyone yet, why is that?

[semioldguy]

Why should I place a vote?

Why shouldn't you vote? Do you feel that voting is in some way anti-town? If so, in what way? Is there a reason you are not voting? Do you have any insanities?

[semioldguy]

Voting is completely pointless right now in regards to the lynch.

How so?

[semioldguy]

EBWOP:

Voting is completely pointless right now in regards to the lynch. If you fear I have insanities, just tell me who to vote.

How so? (as in could you explain your reasoning behind this?)

[semioldguy]

We're lynching CSL. I'm okay with this. Therefore, there's no point in voting really until we're ready to end the day.

Then what did you mean by the following quote that came before the mod's clarification post?

Why should I place a vote?

The above reason isn't applicable here, as you were arguing for the crippling of CSL at this point rather than his lynch.

[semioldguy]

Up until that point, we were still going to lynch CSL - it was only in the

past few hours

that I pointed out that we shouldn't be lynching him.

This post happened within the

past few hours

:

Why should I place a vote?

The post I am inquiring about happened after you pointed out that you didn't think we should lynch CSL and before the Mod clarified the insanity infraction rules.

Here is the transcript from the past few hours for you since you seem to be lost/unhelpful:

Also in that case, I don't think we need to lynch CSL anymore - we just get him to max out his II's and he'll be useless to the Cultists tonight if he is one. Rather, we should lynch someone who doesn't have an insanity to max out today.

I disagree. If you think he is scum, you should want to lynch him. Town doesn't win by making scum not have a night action, we win when they are all dead.

We can lynch him tomorrow - the only difference is that we now have an additional chance to stop a murderer/cultist from performing their night action.

Lynching someone gets rid of the night action too.

I don't like when people suggest flimsy reasons for not lynching a player they see as scummy. Don't vote for a secondary suspect, vote for the primary one. Despite your activity today, you haven't placed a vote on anyone yet, why is that?

We lynch CSL. He loses night action. Scummy Player A still gets night action.

CSL gains 3 II's. He loses night action. We lynch Scummy Player A. He loses his night action as well. You see what I'm saying?

Why should I place a vote?

(Some) Insanities are post restrictions, and intentionally violating a post restriction in any game is against the spirit of the rules, if not the letter. I've allowed players to do it once, and will continue to do so; however, if I believe a player has incurred enough Insanity Infractions

on purpose

to result in the loss of their

Night Action

, they will be modkilled and the

Day

will end.

Why shouldn't you vote? Do you feel that voting is in some way anti-town? If so, in what way? Is there a reason you are not voting? Do you have any insanities?

These questions have been avoided. The questions reference a post prior to the Mod's relevant clarification. A post-clarification reasoning is not sufficient as an answer to something that happened pre-clarification. At the time you questioned why you should place a vote, you were currently lobbying for lynching CSL for a future day.

Voting is completely pointless right now in regards to the lynch. If you fear I have insanities, just tell me who to vote.

[semioldguy]

You said "Why should I place a vote?"

What was your reasoning for not placing a vote? Why weren't you voting?

[semioldguy]

Would that have been so difficult to say the first time instead of dancing around the question several times?

[semioldguy]

Claiming noises today does some good, but less good, unless we retroactively claim noises from night one. Especially if your a main concern is alerting scum to people who were likely stalked night one, as those people are either going to be dead or not have been murdered.

@VP Baltar
Noise claims not only help made resuscitation decisions, but also ward decisions. Also I don't understand your current vote.

Phate was likely telling the truth yesterday, as cult successfully killed him today and a single insanity would explain his story.

vote: evilsnail

Very little in the way of unique contribution and activity overall. A lot of minor parroting.

[semioldguy]

Sure thing, here are a few:

Yeah, I noticed that too. Good point.

Vote: Nicodemus

Yeah, I don't think we need to worry too much about people becoming Murderers. It takes a long time and we can make people take insanities that can be confirmed. This all should ensure that we can catch Murderers long before they win. The only real concern should be the make-up of the list.

I'm starting to agree that Elli's plan has too many problems. I didn't really consider the fact that scum can daytalk. I don't see how the people pushing the plan are automatically scum, though. It's not like townies never have bad ideas..

(The above quotes have some posts which follow them that basically restate the same or further justify your parroting posts to other players)

There are others of your posts which are less glaringly obvious as parroting which can be argued for.

If you'd like me to find the posts from which yours parrot, then I can do that.

[semioldguy]

Where have I justified my parroting posts?

Okay, here:

I only saw it like a couple of hours ago, on my first read through all of the thread, and, as I said, I forgot about it.

I'd noticed it on my read through and thought it was a bit off, but I didn't think too much about it and kinda forgot about it when reading all the stuff about ani. When Phate brought it up, I realised why it had seemed off to me in the first place. I've caught scum before on the basis of a preoccupation with only certain aspects of the rules.

I'm starting to agree that Elli's plan has too many problems. I didn't really consider the fact that scum can daytalk. I don't see how the people pushing the plan are automatically scum, though. It's not like townies never have bad ideas..

Yes, but townies try to figure out if the plan being pushed is bad or not. None of you really did, you just said 'hey, good plan. gogogogogogogogogo' because, you know, you're scum. duh.

Oh right, well wow, good thing you noticed. Game over, I guess.

In the same way that townies can have bad ideas, townies can follow other people when they shouldn't or not be critical enough of other people's ideas.

[semioldguy]

Some of the things I was noticing is the interesting bit about kunkstar claiming the Adel/Hayker kill, and also being able to change his insanity from psychopathy (that drench chose) to twitchy. Magua says there is precedent for this from SA1? That just seems like such weird BS to me... I have to think about this.

Yes, this is true. SlySly was allowed to change his most recent insanity (since the player essentially chose the insanity of psycopathy and then immediately left)

[semioldguy]

@vikingfan
Do you think this person is going to come forward and admit it? Why are you fixated on knowing who robbed Sajin's grave? Or rather why do you think this is the best/strongest lead or how do you propose we find out?

It seems to me like a road that won't go anywhere today.

[semioldguy]

If we force people to rob 2 graves and they're a murderer, they are prevented from other actions... but if they're cult that can just split up the graves so they are only robbing one grave and their cult buddy robs one grave and they can still do their evil-actions. It will look like they robbed the graves they were supposed to, and couldn't have done an action. But if the person is cult they can get around this.

Has anybody brought this up yet?

Is there a way we are accounting for this?

Read the post directly before yours.

[semioldguy]

@Elli: Why not a rez kit?

Cops > Docs

Forensic kits make for terrible cops, considering any scum can be investigation immune if he or she so chooses.

The better answer would likely be "Because Ellibereth claims to be bloody and can't have a Res Kit"

Did anybody except me and DGB claim to have recieved fetishes?

Yes, Plum.

Do you gloss over all the larger posts this game?

Okay I am going to work on the dreaded table again now. If anything has something they want in the table, please tell me now. I will be previewing so I'll see it.

I feel I have been helpful, though nobody takes my help. I think we should all be claiming noises. From day two 100% and I highly support it for today as well though am willing to listen to those who have reasons that oppose.

Knowing noises helps the town both with warding and resuscitating. If people still don't understand why this is beneficial to town much more than it can be to scum, I will go into greater detail.

[semioldguy]

Also, your vote on me was basically your first real one. You joined the Nico and CSL wagon with no real reasoning of your own and you didn't make any cases before that. Do you think that behaviour qualifies as parroting?

I disagree, and No. I also doubt that I am the only one this describes.

[semioldguy]

I agree with Dramonic.

Tonight is the best night for grave-robbing.

Muderers who choose Stalk-Murder-Launder will be back to stalking tonight (and them missing this is good)

Murderers who choose Stalk-Murder-Stalk-Murder will be on their murder action tonight (murderers with less total murders are further from their own win condition)

Cult is essentially the same each night, but if they did pass fetishes, they will likely need to regather some fetishes and throwing some grave rob actions in there could impede them as well.

Not to mention having the reveals would be beneficial to town.

[semioldguy]

^ The above post is parroting

[semioldguy]

I heard noise night one (and claimed as such yesterday) and I heard noise again last night.

dramonic's "no noise" claim should be moved from night two to night one as well.

VP claimed hearing noise on night one

Plum claimed to have resuscitated Adel/Hayker on night one.

Animorpherv1 robbed a grave on night 1 in addition to searching.

CSL died with two insanities, not three.

People who received Fetishes today can be written down as hearing noise.

Anything else is on my master spreadsheet at home (currently at work with a sub-par spreadsheet).

[semioldguy]

Wait...

@Mod: Plum is voting Drench (aka kunkstar7), not Hayker.

Noted and fixed, thanks. I'll get a VC right one of these days...
(Vote was nullified by an II anyway)

@Plum
Why are you voting there anyway?

Unvote; Vote: Plum

[semioldguy]

@rewq455
First I was going to vote her for having her vote on Hayker, since she claimed to have protected him the previous night and that made little sense to me. So in going back to read her post I saw that her vote wasn't there anyway.

Her vote is on Drench, which doesn't even match her suspicions in the same post, so I put the vote down anyway.

@animorpherv1
Deadline is over two weeks from now. What's the rush?

I do agree that people who are not voting should start voting! not only because it is good to vote because it makes you accountable for suspicions and etc., etc. But also many of the insanities are voting based and not voting is a good way to hide potential insanities. The more people who take longer to vote, the better off people are who actually have hidden voting insanities because they can sit on the sidelines with the rest of you and not have to reveal them.

[semioldguy]

I'd just hate it for 6+ people to die on end of day. That is, given Worst Case Senario.

Only one person can be lynched per day.

[semioldguy]

At deadline, whoever has the majority of votes will be lynched. If there is a tie, whoever received their final vote first will be lynched.

[semioldguy]

I have zero insanities.

@VP Baltar
Hayker has already explained his insanity as originating with being protected from a murder.

[semioldguy]

Being bloody isn't generally beneficial. It's bad to be bloody.

Now that he has laundered he has to explain why he is bloody if it happens again. He also has more options open to him for actions the following night.

Laundering when the town knows you are bloody is a pro-town move. If you stay bloody it lets you hide actions that might also make you bloody.

[semioldguy]

It still costs the town a valuable night action

It isn't worth the trade-off in my opinion of taking away that player's accountability. I'd rather know that they aren't staying bloody for an easy ride to more murders or an easy ride of nightly participating in the ritual. If a cult member is allowed to stay bloody you are essentially giving the cult an extra action every night. If a murder is allowed to stay bloody they murder much more quickly.

Let's not set favorable scenarios for the anti-town factions as a precedent.

Also Hayker is right, it's better to use an action now than to not be able to when it's most needed.

[semioldguy]

@vikingfan
I don't think commune results should be revealed unless a situation arises that it would help or to point out a contradiction in a claim.

Also it's still possible for scum to still have no insanities, which makes no one completely confirmed innocent.

[semioldguy]

I think you're right.

Assuming we know you were honest about hearing noise and that cult wouldn't want a second fetish of you it is a good assumption (to you they would be much more likely town than to the rest of us).

Process of elimination tells me I was fetished. (no investigating should have happened night 1, I heard no noise previously, no one's first noise should ever be a res, no one claimed to ward me, and if someone stalked me they would have likely followed through). If not dead tomorrow, last night's action was likely from town.

The same logic would go for both of you.

[semioldguy]

Hold on...semi's VERY FIRST POST says that he heard no noise night 0...yet at the top of page 66, semi very clearly says he heard noise night 0.

I think we caught a scum. sorry for the triple post folks, but I think this is worth it.

unvote vote semi

Read my post again. The logic applies if noise was first heard on either Night Zero or Night One and then heard again on a later night.

The only actions that would cause someone's first noise on both Night Zero and One are Stalk, Craft Fetish and Ward. If no one claims the ward, as people have been claiming wards, it can be assumed to be one of the other two actions. If the player doesn't die, stalk would be unlikely, leaving only one option: Craft Fetish.

The reason this logic doesn't apply after Nights Zero and One is that investigation actions start happening.

This could apply to more than just the three of us. Noise claims are not complete.

[semioldguy]

Oh ok, my bad. Do keep in mind though that on night 1 (the night you claimed you heard noise), a rez is possible. It's not possible for Magua, ilord, or myself. So it's slightly different.

unvote

No one should have res'ed me because it was not possible that I was going to die since I claimed not to hear noise one Night Zero. It would have been a wasted action.

[semioldguy]

Anyone who heard noise at all and is not dead, as long as the only noise isn't a claimed ward.

[semioldguy]

If, on the other hand, he flips murderer, then we may have a nasty situation on our hands as we may be down to 2 murderers already and can't afford to lynch one for fear of losing the game as soon as the survivor gets the 3rd kill (if we reach this spot, we're going to need a good rezzing plan in action).

If there are two murderers alive and they both get to three kills, then unless they kill each other on the same night the town is almost assured a loss. No one can win as long as any murderers survive. The only difference is that we need to kill all the cult also for the town to win. Murderers do not have to worry about killing cult, only the other murderers.

[semioldguy]

Can we get noise claims and other relevant info from everyone before we lynch? Last game it was helpful to have the claims in as they happened rather than several days after the fact, we made sure we got claims from everyone.

Lynching so quickly, regardless of who we lynch, is distracting and lets people avoid claiming insanities and noises. It keeps the town in the dark.

[semioldguy]

We should finish insanity claims.

[semioldguy]

If chosen by the town I agree to oblige, begrudgingly.

Your scumlist is too small.

6 Cult
+3 unclaimed murders
+Chaco (guaranteed not one of the unclaimed murders)
+Ellibereth (why would CSL claim to be res'ed otherwise?)
+kunkstar7 (If he is lying about target, someone else had to murder Hayker)
-Nicodemus (minus one for flipping confirmed cult)
-startransmission (minus one for likeliness of cult/murderer from insanity)
-CSL (same as above)
Total: 9

[semioldguy]

Elvis, semi, Elli, hayker, and rewq NOT voting at this point for SlySly is noted (especially if Sly turns up cult), to say nothing of those not voting.

I've commented in this regard already.

Currently I am slotted to Grave Rob both Katy and Phate.

No one has really commented much on who they think should rob graves. People should. Not only would this keep a single player from basically having the power to decide all of this, I think iLord is likely town, but still better to be cautious.

I'd like to evilsnail, Hayker, Ellibereth and Kunkstar7.

The first being because he is most suspicious after SlySly and the rest for being potential murderers.

Kunkstar7 would have been offered to have the insanity choice changed. This doesn't mean that he chose to and merely having that be offered to him would give him knowledge to be able to claim as he did in the thread. I am surprised how much instant town-cred he was given for doing so.

Unvote; Vote: SlySly

[semioldguy]

Although, is there a reason why Elli is more suspicious than Ani?

Yes. Animorpherv1 lost his last night's action and was additionally claimed to be investigated as not bloody. If he murdered anyone, it would have been literally impossible for him to launder himself to appear clean. Therefore he cannot be responsible for anyone's death (unless rewq455 is lying which is unlikely for several reasons)

[semioldguy]

rewq455 should take aversion to animorpherv1. Due to his claiming to find animorpherv1 clean. If animorpherv1 wasn't actually clean then rewq455 was lying which would indicate the two of them are scum together. Aversion would disprove this possibility and further clear the both of them.

Plum should take aversion to Hayker, due to her protecting him. Since it is easier for scum to coordinate protection amongst each other than it would be for town.

There may be other action claims that could help to prove/refute any coordinated claiming, but I'd have to go back and check. Just those two off the top of my head.

[semioldguy]

Wait... I didn't think the plan was for everyone to gain an insanity intentionally, just that if we do gain an insanity to choose aversion and refer to the list as an additional source to eliminate pairings.

[semioldguy]

VP seems likely town to me. He was in the middle of the cluster of actions on night zero which would be hard to fabricate without another fabricated claim helping him out.

[semioldguy]

It is possible for some of those actions to happen by chance.

For instance: If VP Baltar and wickedestjr were buddies, wickedestjr (eventually) claiming to ward VP Baltar would not require additional coordination from you, it could have been a nice side effect.

[semioldguy]

I don't see how forcing everyone to take an insanity is a good idea. This really would only hurt town.

Murderers are gaining insanity anyway. They are not negatively affected by aversion hardly at all. This plan actually helps them. They gain an additional excuse for an insanity that they'd be gaining anyway.

Some of the cult will be gaining insanity every night, so this plan doesn't really hurt them either. It just provides them with an easy claim.

[semioldguy]

Actually, we probably shouldn't force everyone to take aversion as their next insanity. This is extremely dangerous.

In the event of an endgame, or even close to an endgame, it would become harder and harder and eventually near impossible to get any lynch. This would effectively force the town into a loss as not having a lynch means that an anti-town faction/member will almost surely be able to survive.

Forcing everyone to gain aversion gives good odds for the town losing.

[semioldguy]

With the proposed "everyone gains aversion to the player below them on the list" plan, Lylo would effectively be 7 players when there are 2 cult if everyone has aversion or 9 and 3, 11 and 4, etc. Since if we mislynch at 7 players, the cult kills someone and then it's 3 vs 2, only the cult can refuse to vote each other and the town is unable to lynch either of them due to each cult member having a player with aversion on him/her. Furthermore, in the 7players/2cult scenario. If scum avoid voting for each other, it takes every other player to vote one of the scum to get a successful lynch.

The more I think about it, the worse I see giving everyone aversion, since it isn't something that can be gotten rid of and will really hurt the longer the game goes.

I think it gives the best chance for a murderer to win, followed by cult and then town the least likely chance to win.

[semioldguy]

Unvote

Until this Aversion plan can be refined, or more likely eliminated. A group of people taking aversion because they thought the plan was still on would be bad for town as well.

Looking through the insanities, it would be bad for town to mass gain the voting insanities. Mass-Aversion makes lynching difficult. Mass Avolition and Sadism make it impossible. Mass of either Paranoid or Distraction also makes it difficult to get a successful lynch.

I think it's best to take a variety of insanities from other players if you have to, or just take none at all. Insanities are bad, we shouldn't be forcing anyone to be taking them.

@elvis_knits
evilsnail also gets off the Nicodemus wagon as Iecerint's begins to build and he never comes back to it.

[semioldguy]

@VP Baltar
That's true, but it still seems disadvantageous to town as it becomes easier to sway votes as well since the lynch threshold is essentially reduced.

[semioldguy]

Also in the five player endgame above, unless the town knows beforehand who the remaining scum are, then scum would be ensured the win as they both would know to vote together and also would be able to coordinate when to vote at any time in their quick topic.

[semioldguy]

Not solely.

I do want to take time to look at players who have more or less blindly been supporting each plan or if there even are any players fit that description; since each plan proposed thus far has been shown to actually not help town and I think that this would have been easier to notice how it helps cult/murderers if a person belongs to that faction and they could easily go along with something when they see the advantage to themselves.

SlySly is still my choice for the lynch.

[semioldguy]

Analysis.

[semioldguy]

If I had been going along with the first few plans, I'd at least question plans before going along with the next after I trusted the first couple which turned out to be bad. Also I don't think town repeatedly blindly would follow plans for the same reason. I'd also look for how easy they let go of the plans when something bad is pointed out.

[semioldguy]

Vote: vikingfan

Who hasn't posted yet that could have resuscitated him?

I did not hear noise last night.

Regarding our current bodies, I think it'd be best to save them for another night rather than power through them immediately. It just doesn't seem necessary to hold people from actions on consecutive nights.

Not much time right now, bad times at work. Probably won't be back until tomorrow.

[semioldguy]

@VP
The three things that stick out to me most.

dramonic looks bad. I think he might be a murderer. He has jumped onto every major wagon this game. Only one murder (since I don't currently believe Vikingfan's claim) suggests that it may be likely for one of the grave robbers from last night or Dripping Goofball to be another remaining murderer.

Furcolow's voting is odd. Often not voting at the end of the day and off every cult-wagon thus far. It could be due to the general inactivity of that player slot (which is a problem in itself)

The voting analysis makes Dripping Goofball actually look better to me. She was early to the wagons and unless she has it out for her team I don't think she'd be a likely cult member.

[semioldguy]

semi, you don't think blocking Chaco is worth it tonight?

I don't think it'd be worth it.

Better way to keep a tab on Chaco:
Investigate him. If he laundered last night he will be clean and can't kill tonight anyway. If he hasn't laundered yet, we will force him to launder instead of rob graves tonight. This takes away his night action while both keeping the utility of un-dusted corpses as well as adding the utility of having one less bloody player (or the benefit of catching a murderer)

[semioldguy]

Because Chaco admitted to a successful murder and knows that he will be investigated if we take this route.

Making him rob graves:

Will slow him down for one turn
Will give him two insanities (harder to get results with commune)
Will keep him bloody (unable to search for resuscitation kits)
Will reveal two alignments of night-kills now.

Investigating him:

Will slow him down for one turn
Will not give him any insanities (easier to get results with commune)
Will leave him clean (able to use res-kits and also trigger alarms if he is ever bloody in the future)
Will not reveal the alignments of night kills as quickly.
Requires someone else's action.

[semioldguy]

I don't see Chaco as a large enough threat to waste our corpses on him. Would be better suited to be added to the pile of graverobbing so that we can have more than just one or two people rob tomorrow.

[semioldguy]

The disadvantages of announcing who you are going to kill before even stalking that person is that any murderer can just piggyback right behind you and get a murder without the appearance of extra murders in the body count.

If anyone does it, it should be someone who has been investigated and shown not to have enough insanity to have murdered. They can't be a murderer in such a case, and if they are cult they can't succeed in a stalk/murder combo, they get caught and then we lynch them.

The advantages seem to outweigh the disadvantages.

[semioldguy]

I think that we should have our grave robbers, who will have to be lynched eventually due to their high insanity counts, should stalk and murder. Later on we could have the people with low insanities stalk and murder.

Definitely not. The reason they are robbing graves is because they are suspected murderers. If they manage to sneak in an extra kill somewhere or somehow then giving one of them the town approval to kill again can let a murder achieve his win condition, and get the town's okay in doing so.

The only people I'd consider for stalking and murdering are people with low enough insanities to not possibly be murderers.

[semioldguy]

I have books as well. I can check evilsnail while he checks rewq455.

@Furcolow
Why are you so anxious to stalk and kill?

[semioldguy]

im not robbing graves, i have 1 insanity.

You should really refrain from posts like this.

[semioldguy]

I took twitchy last night.

For proof of insanity:

Vote: Plum

Insanity Infraction

[semioldguy]

I agree with lynching Plum today and looking at others tomorrow.

Vote: Plum

*twitches*

[semioldguy]

VP Baltar's list of three graverobbers sounds good to me as well.

Whoever robbed vikingfan should claim. This information would be helpful to the town.

How should we have three players rob the four corpses we will have and actually? We could probably save the lynch's corpse as we can be fairly certain that all three of the current corpses have equipment meaning they must be robbed by two people or risk being outted.

[semioldguy]

Did you commune evilsnail last night SOG?

Yes.

[semioldguy]

Someone stalking another person who claimed to murder someone sounds like a murderer to me. Murderers only have to worry about staying alive and eliminating other murderers. Town and cult don't really matter to them.

Arguing to keep an anti-town member alive is not wise. There is no way to prove or ensure that a second murderer didn't piggyback a kill on elvis_knits and already has two kills.

[semioldguy]

They could last game and I don't see why they wouldn't this game since there would not be any real way from the rules to determine who would get credit for the kill otherwise if two players were both to commit the same murder.

[semioldguy]

@farside22
Yes, dramonic was in the last game. The first post of mine you are inquiring about is in reference to the previous Stars Aligned game in which dramonic did choose to go murderer.

Also, anyone can gain an insanity on night zero by laundering, whether they are cult or town. It would generally be a poor move from either faction. I don't know how to explain 104 in more detail unless I know specifically what you don't understand.

[semioldguy]

@iLord
You don't gain insanity for resuscitating someone else, only for being resuscitated.

If the town doesn't lynch Plum I'd prefer to see both her and farside robbing graves tonight

[semioldguy]

i can prove i dont have any of the other insanities

How?

[semioldguy]

@Furcolow
You shouldn't do anything to gain an insanity tonight.

[semioldguy]

Semi post 964 Not saying much on why he finds Nico scum. Sure could have voted ice but I don't see much as far as reasoning for this vote on Nico

Semi post 1006 you did? Can you post where you stated this?

Yeah... Click on post 964 again.

iLord is spot on about the unvote post. It is a good tell and one I really like.

Referring to iLord's post 797 which was more briefly summarized in Post 730 as "#678: Feels like he has to explain why he's unvoting Ani - scummy."

[semioldguy]

@VP Baltar
I don't feel so good about that plan

Semi: post 1464 why did you notice this with evil, but not say anything to DGB or VP who were doing the same thing?

Because they weren't doing the same thing.

[semioldguy]

Sorry for being MIA, will catch up today sometime.

[semioldguy]

Unvote, Vote: dramonic

*twitch*

I await good reasons not to do this.

At least one of farside22 and Plum is lying. At least one of them is scum. Let's lynch one of them rather than someone else.

SOG, do you still have your occult books?

I have two.

Semi, can you claim all your night actions if you have not already done so?

N0 - Search - Occult Books (no noise)
I think this is the most useful item.

N1 - Search - Resuscitation Kit (noise)
Second most useful item.

N2 - Search - Occult Books (noise)
Getting an extra now is better than having to use an action to get another later when it's really needed.

N3 - Search - Forensic Tools (no noise)
Cultists had been falling a couple days and this is good for finding murderers better than cult.

N4 - Commune - evilsnail (no noise)
As per the plan. Twitchy taken as my insanity.

Essentially actions in the late game are more valuable and I don't want to waste them on searching if it can be avoided.

[semioldguy]

I don't really understand or agree the voting for Magua.

At least one of Plum and farside22 is assured to be lying scum. Why are votes going elsewhere?

[semioldguy]

Why does either conclusion draw the other as likely town? If Plum murders farside, she could be a murder and the town is just handing her a kill. If farside22 lives, this doesn't make her automatically town.

If Plum kills her, then it's another person to put on grave robbing duty forever. We aren't going to have enough bodies to ensure that none of these claimed killers don't go murderer in addition to other potential murders out there who are already doing their thing.

So even if Plum kills her, we are likely going to have to lynch her as she will have the only claimed kill that also allows her to have part of another existing kill and therefore the most potentially dangerous to town of all the claimed killers. Graverobbing isn't even safe for Plum anymore if she murders farside22, since if it is her second kill than she just ignores the turn she has to grave rob and wins. We'd have to lynch her if she kills farside22. If she doesn't kill farside22, we are going to have to lynch her also. It's going to happen either way.

Let's just lynch her.

[semioldguy]

startransmission likely was one of the three murders, vikingfan another. I only view one of those murders as being open unless there was overlap.

I don't see it as more likely that she is murderer or cult than the other, just that she could likely be either and I want anti-town gone. Her being a potential murderer just requires a longer explanation of why we need to kill her anyway than if she was cult.

[semioldguy]

Vote: PLUM!

OMGUS!
No, seriously I'd have voted you earlier but being a sadistic creep prevented that

Insanity Infraction

Are you a sadist or are you paranoid? Or both?

[semioldguy]

I already heard this song and dance. I think leaving her alive may clear me in the very least from some players *looks at Semiold*.

If Plum lied about stalking you how does that in any way affect your alignment?

Consider a few possibilities:

(1) - (unlikely) Plum already has two murders and this could be her third. Game over.
(2) - In addition to Plum's murder, there is another murder. We now have two different potential murderers with a pair of kills each and little to no freedom in our lynches to ensure survival.
(3) - Plum lied. We lynch her. We could have just lynched her today and had more information from the extra night to make a better informed lynch than we are currently trying to make.

We have to lynch Plum no matter what. Doing it now avoids more lousy potential situations than if we waited until tomorrow or later.

[semioldguy]

There is no maybe about lynching Plum. It has to be done. Period. If you want to argue for doing it tomorrow, then how about refuting the points for why doing so today is a better idea instead of ignoring them.

Plum's reveal also will more than likely be able to tell whether or not farside22 is lying.

(A) If Plum flips town, she would have had no reason to lie. Therefore farside22 would be lying.
(B) If Plum flips murderer with less than 5 insanities, she probably stalked farside, since lying about it prevents her from ever possibly winning if farside22 doesn't die.
(C) If Plum flips murderer with 5 or more insanities, she could have stalked anyone and if we didn't lynch her she would have won had her kill gone through so it is not even really relevant to know if farside22 was lying or not if the game would otherwise be over.
(D) If Plum flips cult, she is clearly lying about having stalked farside22 since cultists can't do that. farside would be telling the truth in this situation.

Now explain to me how we can't determine whether or not farside22 is telling the truth from Plum's flip if we lynch her now.

We need to lynch Plum.

[semioldguy]

@farside22
From your point of view, Plum has to either be a murderer who is about to win because she stalked someone else or she is cult. Why is waiting until tomorrow a good idea from your perspective again?

[semioldguy]

@semioldguy: Your belief hinges on the fact that you believe Plum has the chance of having committed two murders previous to this, correct?

No, not at all. It hinges on the fact that Plum is logically the best lynch today. No one else is even close.

Your points are logical, but you are assuming that Plum has made two kills previous to this. I highly doubt this at this point.

No. I am not assuming this. It a very small possibility which is in no way an assumption.

If you are so concerned about whether or not farside22 is lying, lynching Plum addresses that concern.

If Plum is not lying, yes, it greatly increases her chances of being town, but we have to lynch her anyway due to the possibility of her getting her second kill by murdering farside22. We would have to waste tomorrow's lynch on her anyway. Period.

We can't get around having to lynch Plum at this point. It has to be done.

Waiting until tomorrow has several possible scenarios that become immediately dangerous to the town as is briefly looked into in Post 2721.

So the benefit of waiting to lynch Plum is we get a free kill on scum if Plum is right, and we have our next lynch target guaranteed if Plum is lying. In the meantime we can rid ourselves of another suspect.

And then we lose that "free kill" that we just gained by having to lynch Plum anyway.

[semioldguy]

I'm saying that her flip if we lynch her is going to prove whether or not you are lying anyway.

[semioldguy]

I'm saying that her flip if we lynch her is going to prove whether or not you are lying anyway.

Any reason your pushing both Plum's lynch and myself in one statement?

I wasn't aware that I was pushing for your lynch. I am pushing for Plum's. Unless you know she is telling the truth there is no way that statement could be pushing for both of your lynches simultaneously.

[semioldguy]

That's more Chaco's fault than your own. No one should ever take Taboo Launder when bloody. Players shouldn't be looking to shoe themselves into what would be expected of a murderer (high insanity and always bloody doesn't exactly look good)

Also if it ever does get near endgame, you are a liability to the town even if you are town since creating chaos would mean that the town loses.

[semioldguy]

He can't. Sadism.

[semioldguy]

I took distraction.

Declaring intent to vote dramonic.

@animorpherv1
If you take the ward action you automatically hear noise.

I didn't hear any noise.

[semioldguy]

Screw the distraction

Vote: dramonic

Insanity Infraction

[semioldguy]

I communed furcolow last night. He checked out.

[semioldguy]

I believe you already had a theory about this... why are you inquiring others about that action if you already had an explanation for yourself about it?

I think I saw 2 people believe me when I stated I didn't hear a noise. I figured if they don't believe me then the next day when I'm alive will prove she is lying. Some seem to think that her using the kit to help Adel day 1 made her seem town. I have a theory on this but it's more WIFOM then reality.

[semioldguy]

I believe you already had a theory about this... why are you inquiring others about that action if you already had an explanation for yourself about it?

I think I saw 2 people believe me when I stated I didn't hear a noise. I figured if they don't believe me then the next day when I'm alive will prove she is lying. Some seem to think that her using the kit to help Adel day 1 made her seem town. I have a theory on this but it's more WIFOM then reality.

Do you think I'm a cultist?

I'm not sure, but I certainly don't understand why you are asking someone else to explain something you've thought of an explanation for yesterday.

I don't think Kunkstar7 is likely a cultist.

If Plum resuscitated Adel/Hayker/Furcolow then it would make the person she targeted/saved a cultist, not the person trying to kill Adel/Hayker/Furcolow.

You going after Kunkstar7 makes no sense to me.

[semioldguy]

Grr... twitchy.

I think dramonic would be a good lynch today not only for being claimed scum, but since he is apparently robbing the graves on off nights we won't have any bodies or many bodies to be robbed when we need them as long as he's alive.

Seems like a sure thing.

Vote: dramonic

*twitchy*

Also if we don't lynch him today then we pretty much have to lynch him tomorrow since he would have a murder ready again by that point and we might not have enough bodies to stop him (if he would even grave rob at this point to prevent murdering). I don't like putting ourselves in a situation where someone is a must lynch on a future day when lynching them today would be fine.

[semioldguy]

@semi: Would you rather hit murderer today or cultist today?

It's more that I don't want to have a lynch in the future that is forced and predetermined. If we know we have to kill dramonic, let's kill dramonic now. I don't want a situation where it is possible to have two must lynch players on the same day that could have been avoided by not putting lynches off.

Also, lynching known scum today will give us an extra night of possible information to make a more informed decision tomorrow.

[semioldguy]

Adel was known to have been stalked, it was claimed on day one by animorpherv1, unlike most the other people who claimed noise. If Adel was town, the Cult had a better chance of yielding a positive result by protecting him than anyone else that night.

[semioldguy]

I don't understand why dramonic isn't the lynch for today. We know he is anti-town. His action tonight isn't going to help us.

What is the benefit of not lynching someone today if we know for fact that we have to lynch him by tomorrow?

[semioldguy]

And if there happens to be another must-lynch player tomorrow other than dramonic?

I just don't like putting off a lynch that we know has to happen soon because it takes away options on future days. We don't know what will happen tonight and I like avoiding the possibility of being stuck between a rock and a hard place tomorrow.

[semioldguy]

...speaking of which. Ellibereth hasn't said a thing today other than his two new insanities. Either he or Magua would be second choices of mine due to lack of participation/interest.

Dramonic is guaranteed to hit scum though.

[semioldguy]

That would have to be weighed against the probability that he would likely get to murder someone as well unless he was already stalked last night.

[semioldguy]

I think VP Baltar was talking about the potential of stalking him tonight and murdering tomorrow night, which would have to be weighed against us still potentially losing someone else.

[semioldguy]

Anyone who takes the ward action can not be warded. Mass warding is a bad idea as it essentially accomplishes nothing and wastes the night.

[semioldguy]

I don't think that dramonic's graverob would be spite necessarily (though his claiming outright certainly makes it difficult for him to win regardless) but by robbing a grave with his extra action each night he increases the chances that he will be able to go two nights without being forced to rob two graves.

That said, by saving the extra body we should be able to take back an action from the cult or another murderer that they could have gained by living tonight, only we will have an extra night's of info to make a better informed decision.

[semioldguy]

Yes.

Also, rewq455, you should be the least insane at this point. Using your books will return the same result regardless of who you investigate.

[semioldguy]

I am still able to make a kill as well.

[semioldguy]

I think farside22 is the only one who should be bloody. Maybe Kunkstar7, I don't recall off the top of my head.

[semioldguy]

Also I heard noise last night.

[semioldguy]

Not bloody.

[semioldguy]

Aside from the fact that he claimed taking compulsion yesterday after robbing graves and actually had four claimed insanities going into last night.

[semioldguy]

animorpherv1 - bloody
DrippingGoofball - clean
Ellibereth - bloody*
farside22 - bloody*
Furcolow - clean (?)
iLord - bloody
kunkstar7 - bloody*
Magua - bloody
rewq455 - bloody
semioldguy - clean
VP Baltar - bloody

* indicates a player who has Taboo: Launder and will always be bloody.

We aren't far from Chaos with at least 7 of the 10 remaining players being bloody. We need to make sure some laundering is going on tonight because Chaos is a very real possibility and most advantageous to cult and murderers.

[semioldguy]

He resuscitated Phate on night one and has not laundered since so he is still bloody.

[semioldguy]

@Ellibereth
Is your bloody result on either Furcolow or DrippingGoofball?

[semioldguy]

Unless someone wants to come out and claim again, I think going for someone who is likely cult is better than going for someone who is likely murderer.

[semioldguy]

Unless someone wants to come out and claim again, I think going for someone who is likely cult is better than going for someone who is likely murderer.

Why?

Because forcing a murderer to rob graves is more beneficial than forcing a member of the cult to do so unless we have reason to believe that the murderer is about to win and won't rob the graves anyway. Since cult can coordinate their actions, forcing them to rob graves is less effective than forcing someone who cannot coordinate actions.

[semioldguy]

I still have a res kit.

[semioldguy]

So almost every night that you had off from grave robbing you chose to take an action that gained you an insanity? Also I don't buy your explanation for not getting a forensic kit. It was not known that a high number of players were bloody until today and that's with four new players claiming to be bloody from last night.

[semioldguy]

Between Kunkstar7 and Ellibereth, I'd go with Ellibereth. I think Ellibereth's actions are a little more suspect and behaviorally would make more sense as a murderer to me than Kunkstar7

Vote: Ellibereth

*twitch*

If it's between the two of them, then whoever is not lynched should rob the graves along with someone else; Magua or Dripping Goofball being the next options for that.

[semioldguy]

There is even an outside chance that Ellibereth could be Cult. His failure to kill CSL could have been a ploy after seeing how quickly animorpherv1 was dismissed from being cult on the first day after a claimed stalk action. It would also fit with his increased disinterest in the game.

[semioldguy]

Once a player has eight insanities they cannot choose any more insanities, the only thing that happens is that the number goes up.

[semioldguy]

I am not opposed to lynching Ellibereth, as evidenced by my vote.

I also don't want to see the vote go to deadline, which less than a week from now. It'd be much better to actually see some people voting and to have the lynch go through because of hitting a majority to make sure they can in case someone is trying to get away with concealing an insanity choice.

[semioldguy]

What to do to your insanities? I don't understand what you mean by that?

[semioldguy]

EBWOP:

nevermind... I missed the second "due." Silly homonyms from reading out loud to myself.

[semioldguy]

As do I.

The second vote is what requires more deliberation with distraction than the first.

[semioldguy]

Also, DGB clearly did not rob graves last night and is probably cult.

@Kunkstar7
Did you get items from either of the corpses?

Also it looks like we still have a murderer on the loose as Animorpherv1 said.

[semioldguy]

Whoever is lynched that grave should be robbed tonight, since knowing whether or not they are a murderer is going to be important. We'll have three bodies, so two people can rob graves for sure.

I am eliminating myself, VP Baltar, rewq455 and Kunkstar7 from last night's murder due to prior investigations and other night results (like Kunkstar7 having robbed both graves last night).

I'm not sure what to think of furcolow's claim.

@furcolow
Why did you choose to stalk and why Kunkstar7?

[semioldguy]

I don't think furcolow committed the murder of Dripping Goofball to be honest. He could not have been a murderer unless he chose to do so very recently, which wouldn't make sense.

[semioldguy]

Furcolow communed rewq455 to be less insane than himself. I communed furcolow that same night to confirm his insanity. VP Baltar communed me to confirm my insanity and iLord communed VP Baltar to confirm his low insanity. It would not make sense for one of us to decide to go murderer his late as there would not even be enough time to get enough kills.

Since it also could not have been Kunkstar7 due to the grave robbing last night, the likely murderer options are animorpherv1, farside22 and Magua. Both farside and animorpherv1 have previously claimed stalks.

I'd seen the evilsnail kill as the best way to prevent a larger number of town to confirming themselves to one another, since the larger the town circle is the worse off the cultists are.

[semioldguy]

SOG, we should look at what night people were communed on and for how many insanities just to be safe I think. We are on Day 8 after all. Someone could have become a murderer on night 2 or possibly even 3 and still had a shot at winning. You were in the first game, how many days did that one last?

Last game went to the sixth day I think, maybe seven.

If anyone murdered Dripping Goofball as a first murder it isn't possible for them to get another two murders before there aren't players left and the game ends. Four lynches plus one other murder makes only two other players and that would be under the assumption that there are no other night kills and that the town doesn't take any actions against a new murderer. It'd be a very poor choice for anyone to just now go murderer. So anyone who can be cleared of murder from night three onward is cleared of being Dripping Goofball's murderer.

VP Baltar
Communed by iLord on Night Three to have zero insanities.

semioldguy
Communed by VP Baltar on Night Three to have zero insanities.

furcolow
Communed by semioldguy on Night Five to have one or fewer insanities.

rewq455
Communed by furcolow on Night Five to have one or fewer insanities.

Kunkstar7
Confirmed to have double Grave-Robbed on Night Seven.

None of these people can be Murderers responsible for Dripping Goofball's death.

I made this quickly, so I might have missed something.

Player Insanity Counts (correct me if any of these are wrong):
0 - rewq455
2 - semioldguy (communed twice)
3 - animorpherv1 (stalked, robbed one grave, lost a night action)
4 - farside22 (stalked, murdered, communed, robbed one grave)
4 - Furcolow (resuscitated, communed, laundered, stalked)
4 - VP Baltar (communed twice, stalked and resuscitated)
4 - Magua (robbed four graves)
10 - Kunkstar7 (lots of stuff)

[semioldguy]

I'd like to hear full claims from the three of them up through last night with reasons for their actions each night. It would likely help us pinpoint who the murderer would likely be.

I am working on putting together a complete informative chart from every player and every night. Might take me a couple days to find time to trudge through the whole game again and finish it though.

[semioldguy]

Okay, I'm not anywhere close to being done with the chart, but there is something noteworthy which has current implications as I was piecing together likely actions of dead players.

All three of our day one murders are accounted for.

Viking fan and Dramonic are responsible for two of them, as should have been clear. The third one has to be attributed to startransmission. He only flipped as an investigator because he was killed before he had the chance to submit what his third insanity was going to be.

Without stalking and murdering it is unlikely for any investigator to gain three insanities over the first three nights, since there isn't anything on the first night to get him on track for that amount of insanity unless he stalked.

The murder of elvis_knits can be attributed to Viking fan on account of his insanity count when we lynched him. Four insanities in four nights equates to a pair of murders.

The murder of startransmission was claimed by Chaco (now farside22).

And now we have the Dripping Goofball murder. Unless one of the previous murders was doubled up, farside22 is the only player who could be at her second murder.

Additionally, animorpherv1 cannot have any of the previous five murders under his belt. His loss of night three action excludes him from possibly murdering either startransmission or elvis_knits. Similarly, on that same night, he was investigated by rewq455 to not be bloody and could not have had time to clean himself had he been a part of any of the night one murders. The bit about animorpherv1 had been mentioned previously, but I had forgotten about it until looking back.

That narrows it down to Magua and farside22.

Magua would've had to piggy-backed on one of the murders on the first night. Therefore I think farside22 has the highest chance of being a 2-kill murderer. If we lynch her, dust her and she isn't a murderer then it has to be Magua and we lynch him. Or someone is dumb and went murderer when they almost surely couldn't win from it.

[semioldguy]

@VP Baltar
Having Magua rob two graves if you plan to commune him doesn't accomplish anything since he will have at least six insanities once he robs graves. However he is supposed to be clean, so having him rob two graves and investigating him would clear him of murder.

[semioldguy]

Yes.

[semioldguy]

The lynch (farside22 most likely) and Dripping Goofball seem like the clear choices.

[semioldguy]

Agree as well.

Vote: Farside22

*twitches*

Magua should rob Dripping Goofball and farside22 tonight. Alternatively we could have two people rob graves since we will have three bodies, the overlap being on iLord as he will likely have equipment while the other two may not.

We should have two people use a forensic kit on Magua tonight in case one of us doesn't make it through the night we can guarantee having a result tomorrow. Myself and Kunkstar7 both have forensic tools.

[semioldguy]

He's got Sadism. We need rewq455 or Animorpherv1 in here to vote before either of them do.

[semioldguy]

He shouldn't have twitchy.

[semioldguy]

His claimed stalk of Kunkstar7 makes me a little uneasy, but I don't think it's necessary and having extra corpses for later nights could be useful.

He claimed to have all the equipment, another option could be to make him investigate instead of or in addition to Kunkstar7 and/or myself.

@Furcolow7
Don't murder Kunkstar7 tonight.

[semioldguy]

Is Kunkstar7 the only person who is still supposed to be bloody?

Having another person rob a pair of graves who we can check for blood could be a benefit.

semioldguy - still clean
VP Baltar - laundered
animorpherv1 - laundered
rewq455 - ?
kunkstar7 - bloody
Magua - laundered
furcolow - clean yesterday
farside22 - bloody, but going to be lynched

[semioldguy]

I can protect Kunkstar7 if needed.

[semioldguy]

@furcolow
What changed between yesterday and today? Yesterday you seemed willing to hammer farside22 yet today that doesn't seem like the case.

[semioldguy]

@furcolow
What changed between yesterday and today? Yesterday you seemed willing to hammer farside22 yet today that doesn't seem like the case.

Farside has been hammered already, by herself, or am I delusional?

Whether farside22 has been hammered or not, there is definitely a change in furcolow's behavior regarding the lynch.

[semioldguy]

@Furcolow
Kunkstar7 robbed two graves last night. He could not have done anything else as that would use all of his actions.

[semioldguy]

Cult does gain insanity from performing the ritual.

[semioldguy]

Magua is the lynch today as the graves are not robbed.

We need to rob the graves for sure tonight though, as the information from many of the flips would be quite helpful.

[semioldguy]

I am at two insanities. I communed VP Baltar and Furcolow on successive nights to get my insanities. I have Twitchy and Distraction.

[semioldguy]

Sorry for the absence, birthday stuff the past couple days.

I agree with lynching Magua as he is confirmed anti-town.

I disagree with putting forth our other top suspects today or who our feelings for most likely innocents are today as it could help determine who is the best kill to make to sway future lynches in that manner. Unless here is a compelling reason that outweighs the negatives, I don't think it would be done today.

Vote: Magua

*twitchy*

[semioldguy]

Hmm... I think a no lynch is the best play today.

[semioldguy]

But no one here can be a murderer with two kills. All four of us are cleared of that. Kunkstar could not have gotten rid of Dripping Goofball due to grave robbing and only could have been a part of one previous murder. furcolow and myself cannot have murdered any of the early murders due to a low insanity count at the time as communed by myself and VP Baltar, respectively. That puts us both beneath the insanity required of a murderer. animorpherv1 lost his night three action and was investigated as not bloody on the same night by rewq455, so he could not have been a part of the early murders either.

Neither Magua or farside22 could have murdered Dripping Goofball, the former because he was a cultist and the latter because she already had a murderer and could not perform another while remaining investigator.

It looks like rewq455 was right about iLord; he is the only reasonable explanation for the Dripping Goofball murder.

I imagine we only have one cultist left and not any murderers. Or if there is a murderer, they only have a single kill still and it'd be best to let a cross-kill of some sort happen.

[semioldguy]

Kunkstar7 is not cult.

We can't no lynch anymore. Or rather, a no lynch isn't a no-lynch anymore.

If we no lynch, (1a) Furcolow turns out to be cult and kills myself or animorpherv1. The following day is a quick-draw, whoever gets a vote down first between either furcolow or myself/animorpherv1 wins, since Kunkstar7 can't vote for furcolow. OR (1b) Furcolow turns out to be investigator and murders me. Animorpherv1 would be cult and him making the cultist kill wins the game for cult since both he and kunkstar7/furcolow would have aversion to each other at that point, it would go to the next night and the next ritual would finish it up.

@kunkstar7
I didn't gain an insanity last night.

[semioldguy]

@furcolow
animorpherv1 is not the one guaranteed to have murdered your player slot. The opposite in fact, he was guaranteed not to have done so due to the combination of his loss of night action and the following investigative result on him being not bloody.

@animorpherv1
Did you ward last night? If you did, that would have caused you to hear noise. If not, then nothing any of us would have done would have caused you to hear noise. I had checked rewq455 for blood last night, furcolow had stalked me while kunkstar7 & rewq455 had been robbing graves. Unless you have hallucination, and if that's the case, when did you get that?

I will be V/LA until Monday

I'm leaving later today and will check back before I do. I'll might get a time or two in which I can get to a computer and maybe get something here, though not very likely as I travel without a computer. If not I will get a vote down when I get back.

[semioldguy]

I'll vote when I get back. Will take some time to consider while I'm away.

[semioldguy]

@furcolow
A lot of your arguments just don't make sense or are not thought through very well.

A random lynch is not always better than a no-lynch for town. If there are four of us left and only one is scum it takes all three town to agree to lynch the scum. A random lynch would hit the scum 25% of the time. If scum isn't lynch, we still lose. While had we no-lynched there would be only three players left instead and a random lynch would yield a dead scum 33% of the time. Generally it is better to have an odd number of total players than it is to have an even number.

@animorpherv1
Echoing kunkstar7 here, you'd previously claimed more than three insanities.

[semioldguy]

Back from V/LA. At work, but will be reading and catching up over the next couple hours.

[semioldguy]

Busy day at work. Didn't get to much of anything until I got off and home about 20 mins ago. With the spamming there was a lot less to cover than I had thought when I saw several extra pages gad been added.

Furcolow makes the most sense.

Vote: furcolow

*twitchy*

[semioldguy]

Why would you want to?

[semioldguy]

Lurking was more of an I wasn't around very often situation rather than a lylo situation as I've been taking some holidays recently. VP Baltar is right though, with the stalk claim a no-lynch is certainly the right approach. Without a stalk claim a no-lynch would actually have been a very bad idea for town though.

iLord's murder of DGB on the same night that we killed him was immensely helpful.

This was also my last game for a while so I'm glad I can mark it as a victory, especially after it looked so grim after the first few days and my hand in lynching almost all my fellow cultists.

[semioldguy]

If it required multiple actions from me then it wasn't possible as I had Compulsion and was bloody and needing to Launder.

[semioldguy]

But that would take four to lynch and didn't you have Sadism so you wouldn't be able to vote the second vote but only the third or fourth?

[semioldguy]

Any voting insanities past the first or second are really bad for town to take as it makes the game progressively more difficult or even impossible. Aversion and Sadism being the most hurtful ones as the have the greater consequences if the game goes long. Had I been town I would have spoken out about them much, much sooner and in greater detail. But since I knew it was our best path to victory I kept quiet about it for the most part, keeping everyone with sadism alive as long as possible.

[semioldguy]

Hmmm. I guess after looking at Magua's plan what I should have done on the last day was just open with a vote on animorpherv1 and then switch it to furcolow immediately. He would have been at one vote and no one else would even be able to vote at that point (kunkstar7 and furcolow both haveing sadism and animopherv1 because of the paranoia/aversion combo). Or after animorpherv1 voted for furcolow I could have voted and unvoted him to keep him from voting anywhere else.

[semioldguy]

Actually Magua's plan would have worked still I think, since I could not have been lynched in his situation anyway since rewq455 would be the only one who could vote me and me placing one vote down would have sealed the deal unless they lynched someone else, in which case we'd have either a win or the same scenario as we did the last day in which I could have forced myself as the only voter.