The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Lord Fonzi]

Greetings. We've got our hydra activated, and both of us are up to date. We have decided to try to play as a unified hydra, although we will tell you who wrote a given post if anyone thinks it's useful to their reading of us and asks directly.

Both of us find Unicorn Brethren's general play extremely suspicious, however we (and particularly the Fonz head) think that the QT-posting thing, given that it would likely be disastrous for scum, is an enormous towntell.

We're of the opinion that FD is likely a town hydra, and their reaction to the pressure is probably caused by Fate being frustrated that the presence of Yos/Ether and the lack of the usual sheep is preventing him from leading the town as he likes to.

@Beaverweasel: Our impression of Yos and Ether is that they've played with each other so much, there's this weird kind of almost symbiosis going on there. I'm not surprised one thinks he can read the other like a book. However, we are somewhat perturbed by the fact that YFC made the inability of others to read the slot in the same way out to be scummy.

We have a harder time coming to agreement on our scum reads than our town ones, and are in the process of discussing who our mutual top suspect is. Should be back with a vote soon.

[Lord Fonzi]

They specifically suggested modifying the rules to allow quoting of entire QTs, which would be disastrous for scum.

[Lord Fonzi]

OK, we've had the opportunity to discuss our reads. Our scum suspects at this moment are gummybear, FES, and DSTKU.

Gummy: Unproductive lurker, basically. Underhanded 'accusation-but-not-really' at Reckamonic for making a 'busy, content soon' post then does the exact same thing in next post. No real sense that they are interested in scumhunting for its own sake rather than to deflect attention. What gives us somewhat pause is that thirteen days without posting doesn't say tactical lurker, it says 'not been able to find a way to make the hydra work and flaking out.'

Spot: Our big problem with this hydra is its insistence in using 'poor logic is not a scumtell' defense for themselves, rather than actually defending their arguments, and how people defend their positions is a big tool we use in determining their sincerity. Therefore 'So what if we use craplogic?' seems a scummy way to counter unwanted attention. Attacking UB because they don't want to allow head dissonance to allow hydras to contradict themselves, then starts using arguments between the heads as an excuse for not giving reads. They went

26

posts before giving their reads.

Froggy: Our big issue here is the FD vote. Jumping a wagon at L-1 with 'their defense of the accusations against them was weak' as justification looks about as obvious a scum piling on vote as this head has ever seen. That they'd shown no interest in FD earlier makes it even worse.

Now obviously, either of the last two being scum would make us feel better about the other, since while it's not impossible, this doesn't feel on a gut level like a bus. Since spot's vote for Froggy appears to be evidence of independent thought/scumhunting, we find Froggy the better vote.

Vote: FES

THIS IS LYNCH -1. WE ARE AWARE OF THIS, AND EXPECT ANYONE WHO HAMMERS TO BE AWARE TOO. WE WILL NOT ACCEPT IGNORANCE DEFENSES.

[Lord Fonzi]

Froggy: Our big issue here is the FD vote. Jumping a wagon at L-1 with 'their defense of the accusations against them was weak' as justification looks about as obvious a scum piling on vote as this head has ever seen. That they'd shown no interest in FD earlier makes it even worse.

By voting without commenting on the meta argument we implicitly endorsed it. I'm not sure why you'd hold FD flying under the radar prior to that point against us - I don't believe there's any serious comment about FD prior to the meta argument by anyone.

You hopped on. When there were already four votes on. None of the spiel about 'implicitly endorse' covers the fact that hopping on in the manner you did is WHAT SCUM DO. Saying they were scum because they got frustrated when attacked is also what scum do. Additionally, implicitly rather than explicitly endorse means you can pick and choose what bits of the case you claim to have believed later on. And, of course, you didn't produce any decent arguments yourselves. I just have a really, really hard time seeing that vote as anything other than scum piling on an easy wagon.

We are totally ready to drop it like it's hot on FES, but will wait for him to speak first.

If you're waiting, you might as well look at other issues. Going 'DERP we is gonna lurk until we drop da hammer' is no use to anyone.

THE CASE AGAINST FES IS TERRIBLE.

There is no reason to think they are scum here at all. This whole wagon is just being driven by Fate not liking that he's being voted, and it's just garbage. I'm going to be really pissed if they end up getting lynched today, I really think they're probably town here, everything they've done so far this game makes sense to me, and there are posts from them I would never expect to see a scum make.

So you think jumping a wagon in the manner they did isn't scummy? Also, please remind me of what these 'scum wouldn't do it' posts are.

My partner seems to be having a hard time getting online at the moment. Rather than lurk, I'm just going to play on my own until such time as he's able to pick up the slack.

[Lord Fonzi]

(Edit: I just realized that you probably mean the FD vote. I also don't agree that that vote was scummy; FD's response to being voted looked incredibly suspicious to me, and the fact that Froggy had the same reaction to FD's defense makes sense to me. )

It looked to me like they picked any excuse they could to jump the biggest wagon out of nowhere, then retrospectively endorsed all previous criticism to make it look better. Then later started tunnelling to try to make the aforementioned look genuine. I don't see how, if they really thought FD was as scummy as they're trying to suggest today, they didn't come up with any original argument. They seem to be saying 'They were really scummy, but we happened not to notice until they were already at L-2.' It's not scummy, in general, to get annoyed when you think you're being attacked for crap reasons, and I'd say even less so for Fate who's used to getting his own way.

[Lord Fonzi]

If you can't tell that Yos finds FD scummy, you haven't been reading properly. We disagree with their reads; but they don't look scummy to us. Their behaviour here reminds us of nothing so much as day one of lost boys, which this head is still pissed off over four years later, but was a game where Yos was town.

[Lord Fonzi]

First things first:

Unvote: Frogito Ergo Scum; Vote: Gummybear

. Also this head would like to request a

Prod on Gummybear

.

The Frogito Ergo Scum wagon strikes this head as a contrived day one wagon. Unfortunately for us, it happens to be day two, and this town has already had its silly lynch for the game. This head plays with CES and Shanba a good deal, which is why this hydra was for his lynch earlier. However now this hydra is divided on the issue of his alignment. This head in particular feels that the defense that Frogito Ergo Scum is employing is indicative of town in the cases of both CES and Shanba. Likely what is happening is that Shanba is seeing more air in that hydra, which is doubtless a good thing.

In Post 412 and 415 it strikes me that Balam and Gummybear are teaming up far too readily to attack YosFlavouredCake. The argument in its entirety fails to account for the fact that most of the people who have played with Ether can read her exceptionally easily, especially players such as Yosarian who have played with her extensively. This head thinks that it's a puerile argument to go after someone both for successfully finding town and for the proposition of townhunting in general. If you know that he is being at least moderately successful in his efforts, it ought to undermine your argument that townhunting is an unproductive pursuit. At any rate, this head finds both Yosarian and Cay to be town.

Final Destination needs to calm down fast. At first this hydra was inclined to agree, and my other head may or may not still believe that Final Destination is town, but this head will see any continued lunacy from Final Destination as a scum tell. From experience, one of the best ways to hide alignment is to froth at the mouth. Unless some reasonableness makes an appearance in his posts, this head does not intend to give him a free pass for meta reasons any longer. Also please just end the entirely unnecessary false dialogues.

Now to where this hydra agrees: Gummybear. We both feel that Gummybear has been lurking for some time now. This head is exceptionally busy, and my other head has a life as well. This head finds it suspect that neither head has been able to log a post in some time, and this is not the first time that Gummybear has become inactive. As it stands, this head challenges anyone to think of a stance of Gummybear's other than anti-YosFlavouredCake posts. The only thing that Gummybear has chosen to attack in the case of other players is a playstyle choice in YosFlavouredCake. It's a classic cop out. Effectively they make a post every few weeks that is a wall of text but then drop off the map riding off the protection that provides. Gummybear is a scummier-looking lurker than for example BeaverWeasel who has since replaced out. This head suspects that Gummybear will continue to limp along in the thread, making a contribution every week or so rather than replace out, because they aren't actually facing problems.

Other minor things...

This head agrees with my other head with regards to Unicorn Brethren, and in fact also agrees with Copper. It begs mention that the only thing that Unicorn Brethren can agree on is an overeager hammer. Same thing yesterday, in fact.

While talking about Copper, this head will also second the call for DaSpotthatkillsu to get their stuff together.

Just a preemptive request of Super Vanilla Townie, please condense your posts rather than spread them out.

[Lord Fonzi]

If I don't come back within the next 2-3 hours, I fully expect to see knives flying my way.

Quoted for posterity.

[Lord Fonzi]

We find the previous post to be disengenuous. It is simply untrue to argue that YFC has not 'provided a wagon or two they would support.' BeaverWeasel who they were voting before, and Final Destination come to mind. It's certainly easier to recall who they suspect than say... Gummybear.

Furthermore, we are somewhat confused by their 'liking our push toward gummybear' and off of FES, and yet they themselves stay on FES. If they think FES is the best lynch, then we can't see why they'd like us moving off, on the other hand if they think Gummy is scummier than FES, we can't see why they wouldn't have followed.

[Lord Fonzi]

Balam: Vote. Them. Then. It's like you're willing to do anything to look like you're pressuring them, except the one thing that will actually create pressure on them to either get their act together or ask for replacement.

[Lord Fonzi]

Y
Now why mention Balam? It just doesn't make any sense.

I can't see why you wouldn't mention Balam. I mean, top suspect Gummy is doing something scummy (attacking YosC with fail case) and Balam is also doing it, in a manner which might suggest they're in concert. If someone else was attacking something scummy that was being done by two people, but only mentioned one of them, I'd find that to be scummy, and an associative tell with the person they neglected to mention. That you're trying to make out the exact opposite course of action is an associative tell is, frankly, hilarious.

The earlier post you made?

viewtopic.php?p=2881327#p2881327

Asking for a prod.

That's hardly saying "OMG THEY'RE SCUM."

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Could you explain? I don't believe we commented on that post.

If there's one scum motto RF lives by, it's activity. And look! It's Frosty!

This is worth flagging up, because it's the exact opposite of my admittedly old meta experience of him. Seen him as scum twice I think, and he lurked both times.

Fonzi knows that in THIS crowd, that's worse than sheeping your partner blatantly. Buuuuttt, he committed himself to finding you scummy, now he has to push you over the vote thing. While being like "oh come on, snowman, don't do this to me!"

Or, you know, you see someone talking about another player who's doing scummy things, but seems really strangely reluctant to do anything that would actually put that player in danger or generate any real pressure. You find this odd behavior, and a possible indication of a tie to Gummy, so you press them on it. And lo and behold, it's yielded useful information. Balam has made abundantly clear now that they're willing to generate a lot of noise and heat with regard to Gummy's lurking, but when the chips are down not to actually do anything about it. Gummy flips scum, they get a long hard look. Conversely, FES flips scum, they look pretty good for not taking an out that was obviously available to them.

Preview edit: ANOTHER FREAKING V/LA?

[Lord Fonzi]

I can 'like' someone doing something and disagree with the focus (or not agree enough to move my vote). It's incredibly weak, and I'm not overly impressed.

But why would you like it, when it directly leads to your stated primary aim for the day (lynching FES) becoming more difficult? When you're town and someone unvotes the wagon you're on, which you're convinced is scum, do you like that?

I have a strong town read on spot, and Gummy is constantly VLA, it feels like you're picking on easy targets.

Now you see, I really f'in hate this kind of attitude. Gummybear are horrifically bad lurkers. That's something that's useful to scum if they can get away with it. When they have been here, their play has been pretty scummy. And pretty much no-one has been willing to call them out on it until we did. That's a good recipe for someone who's scum. I mean, I suppose it

is

easier to state 'they're lurking' rather than making a long post full of wild reaches and confirmation bias. But it's also more likely to net you a scum, so we will continue to do it.

I also don't see how your town read on spot matters a jot as to how 'easy' or otherwise they are to wagon. They don't appear to be anyone's top suspect right now- that's not my idea of an easy wagon.

[Lord Fonzi]

So Final Destination has continued to act as we said we would no longer tolerate. Grand. It begs mention that Copper who made a similar ultimatum has not remarked on this.

This head has an all around poor opinion of Super Vanilla Townie. It reminds of Final Destination and Unicorn Brethren. Listing all your reads with no reasoning or any explanation makes it very easy to later change your reads. This head wants to see some real content from them. Even if you two are very slow at reading, which I find suspect to begin with, then you ought to at least have more to show for the slow speed and care you take with the reading. You can't maintain that you take a long time to read this thread and all you can provide is a list of names and reads with five degrees. Not to mention the recurring cop outs for not reading faster do not inspire confidence. The later post with some sparse reads just comes off as pot-shots that are both unnecessary and unproductive. If your sum point is that you haven't come to any agreement on reads, why go through the trouble of posting inconsistent nonsense? Our heads have already agreed on a common read, and I'm sure that you must have at least some common reads. I can't buy that you don't. And hey now a post of guaranteed content. Really feeling good here.

Regarding Gummybear's post: We don't feel you have content or activity. You occasionally post an immense wall of text but that doesn't really provide anything. In ISO you will obviously look a lot better than in the thread on a whole because the massive gaps between posts won't come through in ISO. Good attempt to paint yourself in the best light, even if it is disingenuous and scummy. This head is sorry but living in the same house does place greater burdens on you, and that is something you're going to have to deal with. Our heads hardly have the same schedule, and we manage.

Copper why are you voting FES? Second, I don't appreciate our opinion of Gummybear being discounted due to the reputation of one of our heads on the matter of lurker lynching. Again, you're not going to find many scumtells on a lurker because they're lurking. However as we have pointed out he is doing a good job of active lurking, is in the position to be most active in the game, and defends himself by asking his opponents to reread him and change their read. It's lazy work all around, and this head doesn't think that in these circumstances this early in the game that it is likely.

Unicorn Brethren should consider consolidating itself. A multihead hydra is all fine and good, but organisation is good too.

[Lord Fonzi]

So...what? Are you going to explain why you were opposed to a beaver lynch at the moment you attacked me for voting for him

cause he was getting replaced and that was a terri-bad vote. AND YOU KNOW IT.

A scummy player who is getting replaced is still a scummy player. The case on them was not purely lurking from what I can make out.

That said, YosC, can you please give your read on Gummybear? Because to me, they're a scummy-looking lurker to whom your lack of attention is quite glaring. They pop up every so often to make a petrifyingly dull wall post, with little new insight, then defend themselves with misleading statements (ie the ISO thing. As we noted before, of course lurk, lurk, wall looks less bad in ISO than in context. All you have in the ISO is wall, wall, wall). If you're perpetually catching up, you're pretty much never going to be proactive.

I
<Note: the quoted refers to YosCayke>
ISO 6 and 7
With convincing arguments like "Let's ride this wagon and see where it goes." and "Voting for Ether here, seriously? Man, you guys are so scum.", YFC starts out scummy by voting for now obvtown FD.

Are you saying that FD is obvtown RIGHT NOW, or was 'obvtown by now' at the time of the quoted?

ISO 39
Defends FES hard again, this time without any reasons. "THE CASE AGAINST FES IS TERRIBLE" is about all they have to say. Many others did not agree.

What is scummy about this? Independence of thought is a protown sign.

(Equinox)

First off, Kcdaspot. I believe what Greymarble mentioned about Kcdaspot's nervous meta was also RayFrost's "secret meta tell" that he wouldn't tell me. However, he has recently indicated that danakillsu hasn't made appearances in their QuickTopic, and it's difficult to defer to people when they're not there. His posts defending BeaverWeasel are awful, awful like scum white-knighting and not town white-knighting.

Explain the difference.

As to Lord Fonzi's 458 (as well as all future posts agreeing with him), I know that Singer addressed this already, but I am going to calmly point out that it really pisses me off when people accuse me of lurking on purpose, or to achieve an end. I believe that lurking on purpose is against the spirit of the game. I apologize that this semester has been far busier than I anticipated, but that does not excuse you from making what I consider to be an insult to my integrity as a player. I would like to make it clear that I appreciate your reasoning, and see the logic, but I can assure you, lurking will NEVER be a tell of any kind on me or any hydra I am part of.

Feel insulted then. I honestly don't give a shit, you're a lurker, and the rest just reads like AtE. Trying to make out like we're personally insulting you for simply pointing out that you are playing in a manner that makes all the sense in the world for scum, but is of little use to town.

[Lord Fonzi]

To elaborate, NY111 provides an excellent example of our point.

Yos2, who was town, returned to posting the day after his freaking wedding, gave strong reads and tried to get the town to follow him as soon as he resumed playing.

Zoraster, who was scum, moaned about how unfair it was that people were attacking him while he had claimed V/LA, despite the fact that there was a significant case on him that was unrelated to his V/LA.

Also check out FishytheFish in txtmafia. Constantly behind, posts about being busy and lacking motivation, scum, floated all the way to LyLo because no-one except me was willing to call him on it. Or they found it suspicious, but prioritized their townfights with active players with whom they disagreed.

Here, sure, Gummy has declared a few V/LAs. There have also been very long periods of time when they haven't been v/la but haven't been posting either. You can't be V/LA for a whole month. What they have posted has been largely unoriginal, and the one strong position I can recall them taking, attacking YosCayke over their Ether read, was a bad one. We were kind of willing to let it go when it looked like they'd flaked, but every time it starts looking like that, they pop up, catch up, then disappear again. Which does make it look like they don't want to be replaced, but lack the desire or the time to get really stuck in, and we're not going to take their word for it that it's the latter. They might not even be consciously aware of the fact that they lack the motivation to play properly because they're surviving just fine without actually having to really contribute.

They've done the whole 'commenting on everything and making lists' thing to give the illusion of content, rather than concentrating on finding a scum and making the case against them, which is what I'd be doing if I were in the position they claim to be in. I'd expect town in their position to recognize that the criticism is fair, and try to mitigate it. Instead, they've used what I consider to be misleading, dishonest and underhanded tactics to try to undermine the case against them- which, let's face it, doesn't even have that many advocates. Most people seem to either be ignoring Gummy entirely, or going 'Yeah they need to post more' and leaving it at that.

__________________________________

@Balam: Your definition seems to be along the lines of 'If there's logic that's good and I agree with, then it's town. If I don't think the logic makes sense/disagree with it, it's scummy.'

Oh, and just to note, given that last bit of rampant opportunism, this head will definitely prefer a FES lynch to a spot one if it comes to that.

[Lord Fonzi]

Did you miss the bad attack, lack of original opinions part? You replied to a post asserting from prior experience that town with V/LA issues will usually do their utmost to have as much impact as they can, whilst scum spend more time trying to excuse their lurking and attack anyone who points it out, with what reads to me as 'LOL YOU SAID ONLY SCUM LURK AND THAT'S NOT TRUE!'

It's not just the inactivity, though there's no way on God's Earth that's not scummy in itself (note your own list includes as many scum as town doing it, which indicates it's a scumtell). It's the way they've handled it. If you're not willing to put the posts of people who don't make many under greatly enhanced scrutiny, then lurking remains a great scum strategy, as someone who lurks is not likely to post nearly as many contentious things as someone who contributes an acceptable amount.

When you make excuses for lurkers, and newbie excuses for active players who are being attacked for questionable/illogical/opportunistic comments they make because they are posting, what's left? Attacking active players who actually aren't that scummy.

[Lord Fonzi]

You're preaching to the choir on lurking being a scumtell. I've made that argument myself. And I just don't see it for Gummybear.

Doing a solid reread now.

If you've got specific post-based reasons to think this particular lurker is more likely than an average lurker to be scum, I'm willing to engage with that argument, because I think they're more likely than an average lurker to be scum, partly because of their posts, partly because people who have been fixating on BW/SVT whose posts, imho, were better, and who also looked to me more likely just to not have time/have figured out how to play together, and less likely to be lurking as a tactic. It is however possibly I've missed something decent from them because their walls cause my eyes to glaze over, therefore if you think you've seen towntells in their posts, feel free to share them.

To be honest, an actual debate centered on Gummy's play would be fine by me, because until you just now, people aren't even defending them. They're just completely f'in ignoring them, or saying 'Bad Gummybear!' without being willing to call them scummy or vote them.

[Lord Fonzi]

Is da bear any better? Perhaps not, but she seems to be trying to put some content in her posts, and Fonzi doesn't even seem to mention her. Just harass people on the FES wagon and me to vote bear. "FES is a bad wagon for day 2! Try some gummybear, lecture fucking GreyICE on fucking lurking being a scumtell." (HI I'M GREYICE I MIGHTA MADE THIS POINT ONCE OR TWICE)

I haven't got a fucking clue about your meta, GreyICE. What should be known to everyone is that I, and Yos, are the names most synonymous with this line of thinking on MS. So you can hardly be surprised when I push it. You're continuing to strawman the case against gummy as if it's only about lurking.

Fonzi:

Reasons that FES is town and GummyBear is scum. Lurking will officially be ignored as a reason, that applies equally. GO.

GO

GO DAMMIT

Fine. Although bear in mind, while we hold the 'reasons Gummy is scummy' part in common, the 'reasons FES is town' part are only advocated by the head not currently posting. Essentially, we are pushing Gummy together as a compromise because both of us find him scummy, while we're completely at odds over FES. I'm willing to vote GB precisely because in addition to lurking and his reaction to it, I think he's FES' buddy. Their stated scumreads for a long time have been YosCayke, FES, BW/SVT, but they haven't been willing to vote FES when there was ample opportunity to. My partner thinks FES is town, but thinks GB is scummy mostly because of his Yos case, and a possible tie to Balam. Gummy's stated suspicions feel strange, since they are joining with one 'top read,' Yos, in attacking another, BW. In addition, we feel that pretty much any argument against BW/SVT (whose entry I like) applies more to GB themselves.

Our collective ambivalence about FES comes from one head's very strong feeling that they are playing in accordance with the meta that the head who has played with CES before has of him as town, and in addition, his defence of himself today is exactly what he would have expected from that pair as town. He thinks the FES case is, essentially, a crappy day one-esque playstyle wagon that needs to go away.

[Lord Fonzi]

Vote: Frogito Ergo Scum

I'll always preferentially lynch slots that are scum-ish and posting no content over slots that are scum-ish and posting lots of content. I can learn more later about the slot posting lots, I'll never know anything much about the slot proddodging.

This I totally agree with. I'd kinda like to see some CES scum meta to be honest, because I doubt it's THAT different.

I know that Shanba lurks as scum (and uses the schoolwork excuse) from our last completed game where we were buddies.

Fwiw, the looking for gaps between posting thing you did there is something I do a ton of as town (see Simpsons Mafia). It comes from Mafia in Mendo, where YThill noted that the scum were posting once per prod period. It's something that I think's a huge scumtell. But dammit, we set out to play this game under collective responsibility, and we're going to. Undoubtedly, Gurgi can make his own case more effectively than I.

[Lord Fonzi]

Oh, and just to note, given that last bit of rampant opportunism, this head will definitely prefer a FES lynch to a spot one if it comes to that.

Consider that Spot is our #2 suspect (we've made this abundantly clear). Consider that the FDwagon isn't going anywhere. Can you say with a straight face that voting for Spot in this situation isn't obviously the right thing to do for us?

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

[quote="Frogito Ergo Sum"

I'd kinda like to see some CES scum meta to be honest, because I doubt it's THAT different.

These two are probably most useful in that regard.[/quote]

Thanks.

[Lord Fonzi]

What really stands out from the CESmeta is that he is willing to bus hard and early, even tunnel on his partner, as scum, in one game with a liberal amount of hopping off his buddy halfway through the day to join a successful town wagon. Doesn't make me think FES is town, but does make me wonder about FD... of course, these are the scum games CES WANTED us to see, so there's a lot of WIFOM there.

He was accused of votehopping in the scum games, so it's not a town tell.

[Lord Fonzi]

We switched because there was a wagon on him.

Well, quite.

[Lord Fonzi]

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

Because there's a viable wagon that we agree with. You'd think that we'd be able to make a more useful vote than FD, but for the longest time the only genuinely viable wagons were the one on us and the one on BeaverWeasel.

Well, adding a second vote to a one-fer makes it a wagon. Though re-reading your iso does somewhat, albeit not entirely, mitigate the 'there they go joining another big wagon without adding anything new' feeling that was my initial reaction.

[Lord Fonzi]

Can people please post with their freaking hydras?

[Lord Fonzi]

OK. In spite of my partner's very grave reservations here, I'm going to call for an FES claim. He's at L-1, there are five people on that wagon, and four of them have pretty much declared that they will not vote for DaSpot (the only wagon that looks remotely viable as a counterwagon) over FES in any circumstances (Copper being the exception, since obviously DSTKU will not vote for themselves).

FD wants Froggy dead at all costs, DaSpot wants Froggy dead at all costs, Greymarble has stated a strong belief that DS is town, Balam gives the impression of finding DaSpot scummy but Froggy even more so. In addition, Gummy has had FES in his top three, like, forever, so the only way I can see them failing to eventually hammer is if both are scum. If Gummy is scum and FES town, then Gummy has a ready-made excuse to jump the wagon (even if they delay until it's 'hammering to prevent a no-lynch'), and if Gummy town and FES scum... well, why wouldn't they vote FES since they've repeatedly said he's one of their top three, and neither of the other two are viable today?

Ergo, the only way Froggy survives this without a claim is if he's scum. Therefore, I want a claim.

[Lord Fonzi]

Yes, because it would have been so much better if I'd quickhammered or something. Jesus Christ.

[Lord Fonzi]

Meh. I wanted to call for a claim... I explained why. I looked at the people's positions, and basically decided that the claim was going to happen sooner or later, so there was no benefit to town in dragging it out.

How the fuck is that 'coaching?'

[Lord Fonzi]

---

Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?

Eh? I'm not saying that at all. I was saying there wasn't any chance of that momentum shift actually happening, so we might as well stop going round in circles. I kinda agree with FD here... when it's blatantly obvious that one player is going to be the leading wagon going into deadline, and no-one's moving, it doesn't help just to have everyone keep re-asserting their positions.

[Lord Fonzi]

Hey Shanba, how about reading the fucking thread before making bullshit accusations? I'm not saying you're not getting out of this without claiming unless you're scum. I'm saying you're not getting out of this without claiming,

period

. Now stop wasting the town's time.

[Lord Fonzi]

You're correct. I'm getting angry at you for reacting to what I said rather than what I was trying to say, which is silly. I'm sorry.

Basically, if Gummy even tried to get out of placing you in the claim or die position, I'd see it as so scummy and so obvious a link that in that case, I'd drop the hammer immediately (and probably spend the rest of the game apologizing to Gurgi if I'm wrong). Therefore, in the only scenario where you don't end up with someone else saying claim or die, I'd do it, therefore you're not getting away with it either way.

In addition, I think that since it would be SO obvious, that Gummy can't realistically try to pull it. There's not enough WIFOM in the world. That's why I think it's basically inevitable you end up claiming, because I don't think it's realistic to see any other wagon getting six votes. 4/5 on you seem to have committed themselves to staying there, and one of the few off you has at the very least committed to your lynch if Yos and SVT aren't viable, and they aren't.

[Lord Fonzi]

In fact, let's boil it down: which of the following premises do you actually disagree with?

1) If Gummybear is town, he will eventually vote you.
2) If Gummybear is scum and NOT your partner, he has no reason not to vote you as doing so actually looks worse.
3) There are not six DaSpot votes out there.

[Lord Fonzi]

You know, Fonzy, this is the second time I've specifically directed a post towards you about a problem I have with your Froggy case, and both times now you just blithly went along without even acknowledging I said anything. It's starting to seem a little odd to me. If you don't agree with my last post, that's fine, but I'd like to know why; other then that comment about me posting from the wrong account, I don't know why you disagree with me. You just seem to want to push for a claim/lynch (or, I guess, at least one of your heads does), and don't seem to care that I just shot down your most recent justification for it. I don't get it.

-Yos

Eh? Perhaps because Froggy themselves had already pointed out that they had previously listed DaSpot as a secondary suspect, and I had acknowledged that that was a mitigating circumstance- that in fact the Spot vote wasn't as overwhelmingly obvscummy as my initial reaction was to think it was? Therefore, I didn't respond because you didn't add anything new.

[Lord Fonzi]

And a return from the dormant head.

I still fail to understand the FES wagon. It's clear as day to me that the hydra is being run as a CES-dominant duo. The new posts from Shanba have more content because they're on the chopping block. With the fire under Shanba he's finally making his own posts without being overruled. In case you weren't aware, CES is a much more opinionated person than Shanba, until you get Shanba in a corner. CES is what I think of as a survivor of the old school of players that had very little problem with spreading their votes around and pushing for lynches a lot of the time. That doesn't really jazz with today's play. I find the fact that you read his scum play, see vote hopping, and thus decide that I am not only wrong about my meta, but that in fact, the opposite is true. Ultimately CES will vote hop all day long, whatever his alignment, in every game. Shanba will never dominate a hydra unless there are mitigating circumstances. This is all to be expected, not something to be shocked by.

What really concerns me is the number of players that have publicly stated that they will seek no lynch today other than FES's lynch. That is just stupid, aside from being anti-town. Really though, the sheer confidence you all are applying to a wagon based on nothing that has all the quality of a newbie game day one wagon is astounding. Enough to bring GreyMarble to start with the underhanded attacks against us for calling for a claim at L-1. How the hell do you play, just lynch them without claim? You're worse than CES. It's like the players that constitute the FES wagon cannot even comprehend people that play differently than them. Fonz is a logical guy, so he will show logically why FES should claim, because that's what he finds convincing. You may be the sort that assumes that people will claim or die at L-1, and that's all that needs to be said. But I am getting off point. I fail to see what commends the FES wagon over the Gummybear wagon. Most of the reluctance from others with regards to the Gummybear wagon I have seen is just lurker-appeasement. My God, they live in the same goddamned house, they can manage more substantial posts more often than they are. To be honest, I'm surprised they haven't dialed in the hammer already. They have every reason to, since apparently the town wouldn't hold them to posting content. The whole anger-at-insult thing is disingenuous. If I am meant to believe that you would not lurk on principle, then I ought to believe that your principles would obligate you to get your shit together given how easy it would be for you to do so. At least FES mounts a defense to accusations, rather than lying like a limp fish.

Specific issues:

GreyMarble: Aggrandising CES and Shanba's metas to unreadability is pathetically poor play. I am telling you what is and what is not a tell from a CES-Shanba hydra based on what I know about them. Just because it makes your argument seem like it has no basis with that information introduced does not mean I am wrong. It means you are.

Balam: I find it ironic that you are on FES for lack of vote hopping when the other members of your fine wagon have cited his vote hopping. Can you explain your reasoning for going after FES rather than Gummybear, because I can't see any. You do have that right? I mean you accuse FES of never moving their vote not three posts down from Gummybear refusing to move their vote in their first post in a while. What the hell?

Final Destination: I don't even know where to start with you. Your posts are disjointed, and you apparently don't even have the intention of considering meta or any evidence that disagrees with you. In fact you've now said that you aren't even getting anything out of FES's posts anymore. Where are you getting information?

DaSpot: Have you even articulated an opinion about FES? Why on God's green earth are you on the wagon anyway?

Copper: Your vote seems to be to pressure a change in vote. This happened. What now? Plan to have a real opinion on the near lynch you are participating in? Also regarding the ultimatum, I could have sworn you made a post to the effect that FD needed to start being coherent or you would treat it as a scumtell. I can't find that in the ISO, so I guess I was wrong. I was going to be all snarky.

Yeah. I was think-singing Beat It while I typed this.

[Lord Fonzi]

Past couple of pages:
Re: Copper question about UB's points we agree with...will go back and check in a few hours.

Oh look Lord's talking about animosity between heads...gofuckingfigure he'd allow that to waffle over his reads.

How are we waffling over our reads, exactly? We're voting you, and stating that you are very scummy. We have expressed a strong town read on UB. Since we're different people, it's obvious that there are going to be some issues we're not in unison over. The two reads to whom that really applies are FD and FES.

We never stated that FES was an unacceptable lynch,we just decided that BW->SVT was a better focus

We never said you did, in fact we said the opposite, but do you know how often scum distance their partners by putting them in a 'top suspects' list but saying that someone else is more of a priority?

Lord Fonzi also says that it's suspicious that we don't vote for FES even though he's a scumread of ours and is a much more viable lynch, and yet you're voting for us after publicly stating that you're suspicious of FES as well-compromise my ass.

And the other head has publicly stated that he feels the FES wagon is terrible. We both find you scummy. What's your point? Do you think it's wrong or scummy play, when a hydra is totally divided over a specific player, to vote someone else they do agree on? Also, in case you hadn't noticed, a) I did vote FES earlier today, before my partner came in and expressed his enormous reservations about such a course of action and b)

right now FES is at L-1 and unclaimed.

Removed, this is apparently untrue per the votecount above.

Lord Fonzi, we'll be apologizing to you in the aftermath, no doubt. But if you want to point out where we use ridiculous amounts of AtE, that'd be cool (other than quadz's frustration over you seemingly making lurking your case *acknowledging that lurking is no longer the only part of your case against us*).

"Can you please point out where we used AtE, excluding the time we used AtE?" Seriously? "How dare you accuse ME of tactical lurking, I would NEVER do such a thing and am OFFENDED, OFFENDED I TELL YOU that it is suggested" is really, really massive AtE. Hence 'A ridiculous amount.'

We also don't know why Lord Fonzi keeps talking in circles about "what it will mean/look like if they do/don't hammer FES"...he's not at L-1, and last we checked, no one asked him to claim.

I was under the impression that he was. Given how hard GreyMarble has been going for FES, I somehow assumed he was both voting and locked onto him... missed the unvote. Regardless, GM has made it 100% clear they will support FES over the only other viable wagon, so I don't really know what they're playing at there. And, of course, I asked him to claim.

[Lord Fonzi]

(AGar)

Balam: I find it ironic that you are on FES for lack of vote hopping when the other members of your fine wagon have cited his vote hopping. Can you explain your reasoning for going after FES rather than Gummybear, because I can't see any. You do have that right? I mean you accuse FES of never moving their vote not three posts down from Gummybear refusing to move their vote in their first post in a while. What the hell?

Our accusations of FES aren't that he's

lacking

in votehopping. Are you illiterate? Do you not speak English? Or just stupid? Seriously. FES said "We want to lynch FD." The rest of the game pretty much said "No, not happening." FES then proceeded to sit there saying "Ok. But we're not going to move our vote, except to maybe DaSpot. But we'll see," and did

absolutely nothing else whatsoever

to make the wagon on FD viable, present another viable target or get momentum behind the DaSpot wagon. A town player's vote is their

strongest

tool and they pretty much stuck it away in a corner where it knowingly wouldn't be used at all.

(AGar)

To my mind, not moving one's vote and moving one's vote too much are diametrically opposed actions. Perhaps you disagree with me. Do you feel that FES's new movement in self defense is a scum-tell or a town-tell? Feel like addressing the Gummybear aspect of my question?

DaSpot: Have you even articulated an opinion about FES? Why on God's green earth are you on the wagon anyway?

Truly one of the funniest questions I've been asked in a mafia game. Try reading something we've said, okay?

I couldn't find a well articulated position that is recent enough to be valid when I made that post. Which is of course why I challenged you to make one. I welcome you citing an example, or even just articulating something fresh for me. I don't think we really need to have this back and forth when you could have quoted an old position or outlined your thoughts.

My bad.

[Lord Fonzi]

I had a bad weekend. So you get a picture that is vaguely related to Spot's play. I also find it funny.



Any way, I'd be in favour of a Spot wagon. Especially as an alternative to a FES wagon.

[Lord Fonzi]

We never said you did, in fact we said the opposite, but do you know how often scum distance their partners by putting them in a 'top suspects' list but saying that someone else is more of a priority?

Except you've essentially done the same thing now with

you

thinking FES is scummy enough to vote and your other head just so happens to not allow you to continue to vote for them. "It's scummy when they do it but not when we do it, waaah." Please.

Regardless of both of you thinking that we're scummy. Your entire case on us was lurking up until you decided that catching up in a game and agreeing/disagreeing with people's reads was sheeping. At this point one of the top two wagons SHOULD be lynched today, and you're effectively preventing that from happening by focusing on a null tell.

I suppose I should be the one to address this, huh. I call some massive bullshit. How long can you continue to claim the same thing as a defense, and yet never actually put forward any content? You can keep calling till the end of the week for more evidence against you, but that depends entirely upon you giving something more. Evidently though you're more content with maintaining for what feels like the second week running that the two of you can't manage to read this goddamn thread. I mean, you seem to be enough aware of the thread to post defense of yourself but that's about it.

Besides this, I'm not sure why you're insisting that the only options for lynch are the two main wagons. I mean false dichotomy ought to cover it, but it's just bad logic. If you're so sure that FES is going to be lynched why are you worried about us? What you're really after is trying to discredit us because we're the ones after you. Again the whole time to defend but no time to build anything constructive.

Who is playing UnicornBrethren right now? Is that whole consistency thing happening?

Please rip the caps lock key off your keyboard, Fate.

[Lord Fonzi]

Uh can we get a votecount? Immediately?

I'm not liking the change in DaSpot's play. Makes me think we're onto something with the gummybear wagon.

YosCake is town, stop trying to lynch them. It won't happen. I'm suspicious of everyone trying to line them up to die tomorrow if gummybear flips scum.

Incidentally, FD seems to have pulled a 180 here, without any thought given to it. I guess that's the benefit of playing like you're insane, no one gives it a second thought. Anyway, I did notice it, so there you go.

[Lord Fonzi]

Past couple of pages:
Re: Copper question about UB's points we agree with...will go back and check in a few hours.

Oh look Lord's talking about animosity between heads...gofuckingfigure he'd allow that to waffle over his reads.

How are we waffling over our reads, exactly?

We're voting you, and stating that you are very scummy.

We have expressed a strong town read on UB. Since we're different people, it's obvious that there are going to be some issues we're not in unison over. The two reads to whom that really applies are FD and FES.

THIS

THIS ENORMOUS CHANGE IN READ

IT IS VERY SCUMMY

I give up

Now I may be missing something, but I don't see an inconsistency here. I'm pretty confused about what you're trying to get at.

At any rate, starting with the conclusion that we're scummy and only being able to find one thing to articulate this point is pretty pathetic. Surely you can trump something up like FD or Spot can.

Thanks for saying what I just said in your latest post. Do you just not want to agree with me?

[Lord Fonzi]

Uh can we get a votecount? Immediately?

I'm not liking the change in DaSpot's play. Makes me think we're onto something with the gummybear wagon.

YosCake is town, stop trying to lynch them. It won't happen. I'm suspicious of everyone trying to line them up to die tomorrow if gummybear flips scum.

Incidentally, FD seems to have pulled a 180 here, without any thought given to it. I guess that's the benefit of playing like you're insane, no one gives it a second thought. Anyway, I did notice it, so there you go.

This post?

You mean the one where you FOS DaSpot for the Gummybear wagon, FOS everyone whose suspicious of Yos, and FOS FinalDestination?

I agree it's pretty scummy.

Outside of that, what the hell was

agreeable

about it?

No that post was made after my question... So you can safely guess I wasn't referring to the future. There's a difference between a FOS, which is basically meaningless, and expressing suspicion. Learn it, it'll do you good.

[Lord Fonzi]

I still think Lord Fonzi is scummy.
They chose the easycasestomake FES/Spot/Gummywagons.
They came out pretty fast with an L-1 FES vote.
Their tunnel on Gummy feels slightly bussy and insufficiently supported by their posting.
It's based on lurking which is not likely to cause a lynch but gives free reign to yowl at a buddy.
They are happy to set up a gummy-balam connection well in advance.
They use the "what you did is what scum do" argument structure that fully distances from a lynchresult.
They hand out tons of scumreads but don't seem to be trying to figure out what's going on overall (i.e. by presenting potential teams that really make sense) so much as pointing out things that could be taken as scumtells.

That said I think Gummy is very likely a buddy for them and I'm not sure which is independently scummier.
I get warm fuzzy feelings thinking about lynching either of them.
I don't find Yoscayke quite as independently scummy.

VOTE: Gummybear L - 1
This is a good lynch and the deadline is here.

I'm still annoyed by your initial claim that you found us scummy but you didn't know why. Which is a really great way to then point out anything and everything as backing up your initial gut, but a bad way to play the game as town. I feel like this is a continuation of that, just piling on random observations and misinterpretations and then referring to your initial baseless suspicion. Which was apparently based on a post we made after that supposed suspicion. Reminds me of you answering my question by referring to a post that I made after the question. Feel like answering the actual question yet?

Let me just try to get a handle on your argument here.

You think this is a good lynch yet you think that we're bussing because it won't see lynch and it is currently the main lynch.
You think we are setting up connections between players, but not looking for scumteams. How does that work exactly?
You think we're tunneling Gummybear (Since when?) but that implies you know that Gummybear is town or that we are scum with him. Besides, if we're tunneling someone that you think is scum, how can it be tunneling? That's called being correct. Probably just you using tunneling incorrectly.
I don't defend the FES vote. Of course, I don't think voting to L-1 is indicative of anything, either. If it was a hammer you might have something. We're hardly in agreement over the FES wagon, at any rate. The Gummybear wagon is perfectly valid as you yourself implicitly agree by being on it.
How does one find scum except by looking for what scum do? Are we not meant to use scumtells now?
I am certainly not going to be the first one to point out The Fonz's propensity for lynching lurkers.

You can't have it every way. Did you even read to see if your points made sense together? Half of them contradict, some are untrue, and the others aren't even scumtells. Maybe you should stick to the vague feelings.

I'm inclined to believe you're just stupid town. Though there's a limit to what I can believe in terms of stubbornness.

Gummybear: So now that the main two wagons have changed, have you considered moving your vote? Or was that argument that you were picking the better of two evils just crap? How about you keep your vote in play.

[Lord Fonzi]

Hi guys. This head was absent for the last few RL days of day two, but I have the following observations:

1) Yesterday makes FD look an awful lot worse to me. I had them town based on getting angry in reaction to what he claimed to see as a stupid wagon on him, which I find to be a towntell, but the fact that they basically parked their vote on FES all day, going 'OMG obvscum' and lurking in such a way that meant they really didn't comment on anyone else, but then didn't fight for the FES wagon when an actually viable counterwagon sprung up- in fact, joined that counterwagon, just leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Could see that as distancing, or as simply being indifferent as to which of FES and Gummy die.

2) In response to Yos' critique of my FES suspicion, the tunnel on FD just looked really fake to me. As I'd noted before, they weren't particularly anti-FD before a wagon sprung up, then after there was one they acted like FD was the most obvious scum in the world. It just didn't ring true to me. I feel like they decided to tunnel afterward to make their initial hop look less opportunistic, and no, I don't give a shit about your meta, frankly. As I found when I did the meta analysis, CES does that as scum too. As for the 'not joining the SVT wagon' point, I think that is explained by the 'fake tunnel' theory: it's hard to look like you're tunneling if you're voting someone else.

3) Balam and FES are not both scum. Just find it really, really hard to see why Balam wouldn't have done what he did earlier, without putting FES in position to be hammered first, if he were a buddy.

3) I haven't got a fucking clue what Greymarble was on about with 'panicked when a wagon sprung up' since it seems quite obvious our posts there suggested no lack of enthusiasm for a gummylynch whatsoever.

4) On FES specifically, obviously gummy flipping town blows the 'Gummy and FES are partners because Gummy keeps saying he suspects FES but won't vote them' part of my FES scum case out of the water. In addition, FD looking scummier also muddies it, because I was convinced that the L-2 vote FES placed on FD was a blatantly opportunistic hopping on, and if FD is scum, that can't be true.

5) Can people stop calling this hydra 'Fonz' especially when it is obviously Gurgi posting, ie the end of yesterday?

6) I want to know why UB thinks FES is obvscum now, but was willing to leave the wagon to go solo on copper yesterday. That makes little sense to me.

[Lord Fonzi]

Lord Fonzi, you used 3 twice.

And you point this out because...

Also could you elaborate more on why FD looks worse after Yesterday? I'm not really seeing that right now. Finally, 6 seems fairly obvious, but I guess we can wait for the fairly mute Unicorn to answer on their own behalf.

Sure. You're town, your top suspect is at L-1, someone else on the wagon and unvotes him and moves to another player who had a vote on him already. Do you a) Try to dissuade people from the counterwagon, re-iterating why the original target is still scummy or b) join the counterwagon?

The following posts were made consecutively:

WE"RE STICKIN TO FES

AND HE NEEDS TO BE LOCKED INT A CLAIM/HAMMERED.

LIKE WEVE BEEN SAYING FOR WHAT FEELS LIKE WEEKS.

Unvote:
Vote: Gummybear

HEheh

heHEHEHe

EHAHEHAEHAEHHAEHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


"You guys cant lynch me I wasnt a main wagon all today >_>
<_<"

LYNCH IT WITH FIRE BABY

[NO ONE APPROVED]

[Lord Fonzi]

So people UB thinks are scum/worth lynching, according to today's posts only:

YFC
Lord Fonzi
Copper
FD
FES

UB, are your heads communicating at all? Did you realize you have more scum reads than non-scum reads? Do you even have town reads at this point?

Uh, why are we on this list? Unless there's a post by my other head I've missed, we're emphatically against lynching UB, they're a town read. Gurgi wants them to contribute more, but we're certainly not going to join a UB wagon.

We were reading the game during night. Check this out:

We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.

We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.

We would

compromise

onto a daspot wagon.

We would

compromise

onto a daspot wagon.

Vote: Spot

There's no way FES is town. He just isn't. He has no direction, actual content, scumreads of any sorts. When he hammered GB me and AGM were like "welp.. guess she's flipping town."

Eh? This makes no sense. They had DaSpot listed as a secondary suspect, one they were willing to push if nothing came of their attack on you. There was a Spot wagon, they compromised and joined it, like they said they would. What are you trying to say is scummy here?

Yesterday he had to "compromise" onto a spot lynch, today he starts pushing it ???? Because of ????

Presumably because the case against Spot on which they were voting until seven minutes before deadline hasn't gone away? There is no contradiction there. You and DaSpot were top suspects.

Those two posts were made OVER 40 HOURS APART. Yeah, we jumped ship. Yeah we didn't have any ammo left to RAGE for a FES wagon. Why? Because he minimilastic scum postings, and there's only SO MANY FUCKIN TIMES we can yell "LYNCH FES HES OBVSCUM AND USELESS LYNCH FES AND KILL HIM NOW" before it just loses its appeal and it becomes apparent no one more will be convinced to vote/buss FES without further scummy posts or from FES or flips.

SERIOUSLY? WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN TODAY IF FES DIDN'T BY SOME MIRACLE DIE OVERNIGHT? WE WERE GOING TO END UP AT THE EXACT SAME FUCKING POINT AGAIN, WEREN'T WE? Whatever the gummy flip, and whichever town player died overnight or indeed if none did.

For all your hating on each other, yourselves and FES look like the two most similar posters in the game to me. You both basically used tunneling on each other to get away with lurking on other issues. You both pulled the 'We're really disappointed in the quality of play from those on our wagon' card. Lurking and popping in every so often to go 'Yeah FD/FES is obvscum' without offering any real engagement with those that think otherwise is not a way to rally support to a wagon. Also, what happened to the 'Maybe FES is the townie who just happens to believe the retarded case on us and YFC is scum' train of thought you had yesterday?

And here we are, STILL starting FES scum in the face. Now we have more of a case though. He comes right out the gate onto the easy lynch Spot, doesn't even so much as MENTION his scumread of us, nor comment on the wagon on him except to try and explain/defend his actions away.

How else do people comment on their own wagon? Pushing a secondary case that's more viable can make a ton of sense as town. And I don't like one bit this 'Oh, he's an easy lynch' defense that's been made by you as well as GreyMarble on Spot's behalf. UB, to name but one, is a much 'easier' lynch.

[Lord Fonzi]

Smarg- thanks, my bad.

Yos, you really just put a lot of words and emotion into posting what is essentially "No policy lynch today; we need to hit scum."

Vote: FD

I was hoping Gurgi would show up today so that we could be sure we were on the same page, but he hasn't yet, here or in our QT, so I guess it's time to put my money where my mouth is.

I can see FD as scum with FES: As I noted, the scum games CES supplied show a pattern of attacking a partner consistently, but jumping off to lynch townies later in days. I can also see them as scum without: this would suggest derailing of the D1 FD wagon by partners. I need to go back and look at who that is.

[Lord Fonzi]

Quick scan reveals the 'derailers' were dead town GM and townread UB. That gives me pause.

[Lord Fonzi]

Hey guys. You won't be seeing much of me for a bit. It's death by finals here.

I'm cautious of the FD wagon. I'd prefer to lynch DaSpot, especially considering his idea of a defense is just screaming no.

[Lord Fonzi]

oh but we HAVE

(sorry about not posting in the right account.)

let me show you a reason why you are scum eh? there's other things we've been over (and to save some sanity let's skip the back and forth on that shall we?)

but something else I noticed when I went over my reads is that as of right now our PoE has you 3 nailed.

This is the PoE that has everyone on the wagon you like as town, and everyone on the wagon you don't as scum, right?

FD has good, understandable cases. he has stayed with most of his reads and has been pretty consistent. The counter argument against them being town is their post style... wut?

This is a massive strawman of the case against them. Also, please tell me what these 'Good, understandable cases' are. As far as I can see, they went after FES with an omgus, and then one post after saying that FES was definitely scum and had to die, they jumped off that wagon because 'Gummybear say they can't be lynched because they haven't been a major wagon all day.' Is this enough to lynch on alone? If not, where was their GB suspicion when they were lurktunneling FES?

Balam has had good thoughts all game i don't think they have been on a wagon without proper reasoning yet.

And we have? And YosCayke has? You can say what you like about them, but the idea that they haven't given reasoning is ludicrous. And their point about you defending BW, but going out of your way to deny it, was a good one. I don't actually agree with my partner on you being scum anymore, and my reasoning is this. You were

We've (you and we)been back and forth over BC's slot. we've (dana and I) always thought this slot was town and then BC comes in and posts like a boss. no way he's scum

the low man on the town list is UB. they have been anti-town but when we put their post against our scum list they a damned sight better

and we've (dana and me again) have a town PM sitting in our read messages folder soo...

that's 5 players

and with 8 alive

that leaves 3

you
FES
and lord fonzi

Your little analysis completely omits copper. There are nine alive. Copper is actually a player we are concerned about, because they sure

sound good

, but I can't actually think of anything particularly protown they've done.

Also, really not buying the 'No town player would have hammered argument.' The very opposite is true, any town player worth his salt who had the opportunity to hammer there should have, and the opposite would be a MASSIVE scumtell (of course, it's impossible to tell who would have had the chance to vote but didn't, but still).

I have to say, I have reservations about my partner's suspicions of Spot. My best guess for why Greymarble woulda been killed is PR hunting... he stated a lot of strong town reads. My second best guess would be that PR or not, he was a pretty strong roadblock to a Spot wagon, which got a fair amount of support yesterday, and also came out strongly in defence of UB. A player with correct town reads can be even more of a threat than one with one good scumread, because the range of mislynches he can actually be talked into is very small. Of course, I remember from modding Return to New Catania that Yos is quite capable of killing off everyone who suspects him and then WIFOMing out of it as scum, but his play does not really read scum to me, and I'm a guy who gets 'Yos paranoia' in absolute spades usually.

As for UB's pointing out one list GM made, you gotta remember, he made several such lists. And his suspicion of us seemed to make very little sense, and it's one I'd have welcomed the chance to engage with. He started off by going 'Fonzi is scum for reasons unknown' then decided he didn't like Balam, so all of a sudden we were scum with Balam. Then he decided he wanted to attack Gummybear, and all of a sudden our consistent push on Gummy which had been going on all day (he was mentioned as a top suspect in our very first post of the day, and we were voting him to deadline) was a 'massive change in read' and a bus. Well, clearly the Gummy flip negates the bus argument, and is there anyone in the game who actually agrees that our position on Gummy represented a 'massive change in read?' It looks in hindsight like a massive case of town confirmation bias.

@Copper: If you had to choose between FES and FD right now (and I'm aware you don't) which would you choose?

[Lord Fonzi]

FD: It seems like your argument is predicate upon the alignment of FES. Doesn't that imply that you should be lynching FES? Doesn't this also contradict your apparent belief that FES is town? I should also mention that this hydra was pulled off of the FES wagon by me. I guess I'm confused why you want to lynch FES so much, if you are so sure he's town.

[Lord Fonzi]

(add one of the reasons Fonzi is scum: perfectly content to sit on the FES wagon today

Utterly untrue

and now is fine with my lynch. See: Scum lining up a FD-FES lynch to win the game since tomorrow is LyLo and FES should be cake to lynch then if I'm dead today. He's content with either lynch, aka makes me think we're both town)

We were first on you today. We're not 'fine' with it, we are, well I am, actively pushing it.

Surge?

You have played with me before right?

With AGM Mia, I could either LURKFEST it up, or catch fuckin scum like I do best.

In this game, you lurk like hell, except when people vote for you, and then suddenly you care about the game. That's been your pattern all game.

QFT X 1 BILLION

Oh Daspot. Daspot Daspot Daspot. Having good logic does not always mean a player is town.

Another QFT. Let's face it, if we just lynched whoever had the worst logic, it would be DaSpot in a heartbeat.

honestly why give me a great reason why yoscayke isn't scum

like a undeniable proof.

Case in point. 'If you can't prove undeniably you're town, you're scum.'

Fonzi-Hasn't done much scumhunting aside from his "IM DA POST POLICE" which he never even followed up on. Started my mislynch wagon today because I switched off a deadFES wagon onto Gummy. Mentions nothing of others who did the same, his case consists of "I can't see town moving off their highest suspect" o rly? That's scum language right there. I explained clearly why I jumped off FES, his wagon was dying and he wasn't posting anything to MAKE a case on, so GM was a damn good alternative.

OK, you're going to have to fucking explain 'not done much scumhunting' because as far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything we've done has been scumhunting. (I don't know what post you're on about with 'IM DA POST POLICE"). We consistently attacked GummyBear because they did things we consider to be hallmarks of scum, namely, lurking, making unmemorable posts, AtE, making excuses, and behaviour seemingly at odds with their claimed reads. Then we attacked you. We have consistently pointed out behaviour we believe to be suspicious. This does not feel like an accusation grounded in reality at all, more a lazy attempt to sling mud.

And our argument is not 'We can't see town moving off their highest suspect.' We can, but there are situations where it can happen, and situations where it's less likely to be genuine. the FES was EMPHATICALLY WAS NOT DEAD when you left it, it was tied for the lead. It was really your shift that put GB into the 'presumptive lynch' category. And you made that shift having insisted in the previous post that an FES death was 100% the priority, and having not really talked about Gummybear at all prior to that. Before that switch, I could have bought that you were town who was simply focussed on FES to the exclusion of everything else. It fits the Fate head's known playstyle. But what I can't buy is the cognitive dissonance required to be that tunneled on FES for the whole day to the point when you basically completely ignore the Gummy case right up until it achieves parity with your preferred wagon, then jump it on the basis of something completely minor. I would have expected the true town, tunneling Fate to start howling with frustration and demanding people revote FES immediately.

As for the others who switched on FES/Gummy, Balam's switch doesn't really make any sense if he's scum and FES is town. It's the 'consistency is slightly scummy' thing FES mentioned- it makes very little sense for a scum to jump off a town wagon that looks likely to succeed through simple inertia to try to push a different one. It might be some kind of convoluted distancing strategy, in the hope that it doesn't actually succeed, but people in future days might go 'Well look, Balam made a bold move against FES there when he really didn't have to.' But that, of course, requires FES-scum first, so why would we go after Balam today? Also, their move required a certain amount of boldness, whereas yours was following the herd.

There were two others. Greymarble is now dead conftown, and that just leaves DaSpot. And yes, the move is suspicious on DaSpot's behalf as it is for you. But that doesn't mean it's not scummy for you, and other circumstances (GM kill, general behaviour) make them a less good suspect than you. I hate the 'Well, other people did one of the points of your argument against us, so it's not valid' argument. It's such utter horseshit.

[Lord Fonzi]

I will say that 'The two people who've called us out as looking middle of the pack-ish must know FES is town because they're attacking us, and because they know FES is town are scum' looks like one of the most elaborately disguised OMGUSes I've ever seen. "Let's see, if we phrase it transitively no-one will catch that we're attacking them for suggesting we might be scum!" I find it interesting you say 'What aren't we doing, we're voting and asking questions' when Imho, asking questions is a great way of appearing active.

@Copper:

Can you point to any of your questions producing information you found invaluable, which you used to really strengthen or change a read?[/b]

To elaborate on my feelings regarding DaSpot, Copper, etc:

The mafia will not be found by playing "pick three of:"

The spot hydra
The flaky hydra
The 'catchup soon' hydra
The 'how the hell do we vote?' hydra

If I've got this right, then the flaky hydra is the slot now occupied by PC, the 'catchup soon' one was Gummy, and the 'How the hell do we vote?' one is UB. Given that GM was nightkilled, I'd be astounded if there's more than one scum in that list. Scum don't NK people who are defending 2 of their number.

Now, UB is obvtown because of the QT quoting thing. That tells me, at the very least, that there are two scum in the remaining:

FES
Balam
YosCayke
FD
Copper

Of these, I'm least interested in a Balam lynch: I don't really see them as scum without FES. In addition, willingness to unabashedly advocate policy lynching is a protown sign imho: it seems like in the current meta, merely whispering the word 'policy' will automatically get you at least two votes immediately.

FD is clearly a better option than YC because they're individually so much scummier. It's funny, because i simultaneously feel that the arguments presented for a Yos lynch (he had a firm townread on someone he played with a lot and finds easy to read, Ether only said he was 'probably' town, Spot's omgus, any claim involving them not giving reasons or being logical) are some of the most obviously fucktarded drivel I've ever read, and his case on Spot made enough sense that I could see Yostown believing it. Yet due to PoE I'm not comfortable going as far as to say they're a townread. They're good scum, it's not impossible they could be faking it. But I'm never, never, going to to vote someone on the basis of PoE alone when I honestly can't point to one thing they've done that looks genuinely scummy in isolation. I detest it when Yos does it, after all.

Copper- I'm going to try to expand on why I feel uneasy here. On FES:

Ultimately, it's a six of one, half-dozen of the other situation. We want him lynched. All the same, it's interesting that we have people trying to lynch FES for literally opposing reasons (voting DaSpot/not voting DaSpot). This may be a point worth pursuing tomorrow.
Copper, however, could well be scum.

Why do they bring up the contradictory reasons stuff? And what is so 'interesting' about it, how would it be pursued tomorrow? I can't decide if this is a weird attempt to undermine the wagon whilst appearing to support it, or setting up to mislynch other players on the wagon after FES flips town.

As for their interactions with Yos, read their section on YFC on replacing in. 'The Ether thing is OTT.' 'They distanced themselves from US, were they firmly supporting or resigned to it?' "This isn't as firm a criticism as it might sound." Then today, they don't mention Yos. At all.

They seem to do a lot of 'This, however that, and maybe sometime in the future something else' posting. They also seem, and this may be an irrational prejudice, unfailingly polite. They come across as not wanting to upset anyone. I mean, stuff like this:

We can sympathize with Balam in that the Unicorns are intolerable. The "that wasn't the hammer?" post in particular suggests deliberately playing to an anti-town meta, instead of merely failing to contribute. Were we hoodwinked by a deliberate ploy of "too scummy to be scum?" It's possible. But, nonetheless, I still can't make myself believe in earnest that the day one play came from scum

It just feels like their posts are trying to come across as sympathetic and relatable. Likeable. I've long contended that town should be willing to make enemies, and that politeness is a scumtell. They could just be nice people, but it gives me a bad feeling.

Yesterday, they said this of Balam moving onto GB:

Balam's swap seems like an unlikely, risky gambit for Balam and FES-scum

This line of argument seems to have been forgotten. Do you really see Balam-scum bothering to try to swing a wagon from a townie to another townie? Something that I've argued for plenty in recent-ish games, and been vindicated in, is that scum rarely bother to attempt to swing a wagon from townie to townie late on in a day. It's just not worth the hassle.

[Lord Fonzi]

V/La. Lost power in the storm on Saturday. Finally got power back, but cable and phone lines are still down, so still no internet at home, until someone comes out and fixes it.

-Yos

Well, that's convenient as hell. Why don't you just have Cayke post then, in your absence? No reason to call V/LA. Sucks about the tornadoes though.

tl;dr: I call bullshit on your bullshit.

Oh yeah, YOS IS TOTALLY FAKING A TORNADO.

Gay shit is in purple, contradictory shit is in blue.

Go fuck yourself, hard, for using gay as a pejorative.

First, how can you elaborately disguise omgus? It's fucking obvious what's omgus and what isn't.

You don't think that coming up with a really fucking convoluted rationalization for why the reason people are suspicious of you is somehow scummy is not an attempt to hide the omgus? Your statement here is just not true. In pretty much every game I've been in where someone has accused someone else of omgus, it's then prompted a heated debate over whether it is or not, and you usually get other people disagreeing. In this case, copper came up with a really, really reachy argument to explain why the two people who'd just expressed suspicion of him were scum, a total non-sequitur. OMGUS.

Second, we've been telling you that Copper is scum ever since they replaced in. Why are you only questioning them now?

We were calling Gummy scum all of yesterday, wagon only sprung up close to deadline. Believe it or not, people have the ability to re-assess their reads of other people. Copper was neutral-ish, but DaSpot completely omitting them from their list of all the players/PoE thing made me want to look closely at them, precisely because everyone seemed to be blithely ignoring them and assuming they were town just because they used nice long words and didn't upset anyone. Also, 'DERP COPPER IS SO SCUM GUYZ' is not a convincing argument. Especially when it's like the sixth different scumread you've expressed in the previous ten posts or something.

Third, stop buddying to us already by calling us town. Copper's done it, you've done it, I don't know who else has done it. We've been obvtown the whole game, everyone knows it.

Except that, you know, I called you town on the basis of the QT tell in my first post. I'm not going to stop thinking you are town just because you happen to apply a scummy-sounding label to our position. Believe it or not, town players get town reads.

Fourth, no. Just no. FD is not a better choice than Yos-scum by ANY stretch. You're just being retarded. Just because half the town is eating out of your hand doesn't make you right, or pro-town.

The case on FD is so much better than the retarded Yos case it's untrue. Anyone who thinks otherwise probably likes lead with their cornflakes.

Fifth, the way you're addressing that comment to Copper: "Copper - I'm going to try to explain why I feel uneasy here" absolutely terribly REEKS of scum. IT. FUCKING. REEKS. You are obv-scum and it's not even funny.

Fine. Explain what's scummy about wanting to pinpoint and explain why a player gives you a bad feeling.

About the

blue

. How the FUCK are you not going to use PoE when you use PoE? Yeah you said "on PoE ALONE", but that's still a shit argument because who the fuck bases shit only on ISOLATION when everything should be taken in context? Random fucking scumtells in isolation ARE NOT the way to be scumhunting on Day THREE. You know it, I know it, and everyone else here who doesn't have their head up their ass knows it.

I've been voted solely on that basis before, and by protown players as well, indeed at lylo so you fail horrendously. "Well, I've no real read on Fonz, but X Y and Z are town, so he must be scum." PoE isn't an 'isolated scumtell' it's a system of finding town players then lynching the others. Ask Yos about that Large Normal game where he decided I was scum despite the fact that I'd just led a wagon on a scumbag which very nearly succeeded (said scumbag was then SK-killed overnight) because of PoE.

Orange at the bottom

:

So, you strongly believe FES is town, huh? Then why don't you think either of the (mis)lynches on him went through on either Day 1 or Day 2? Any halfway competent scum group could have put that through rather EASILY, right?

No, I don't. If I did, I WOULD HAVE SAID SO. Undermining a wagon while appearing to support it, if you hadn't guessed, would be an associative tell with FES. There were two possibilities, one which makes FES look like scum, the other which suggests copper is scum without FES, but neither looks good for Copper as an individual.

[Lord Fonzi]

unvote, vote: Copper

Explain later.

[Lord Fonzi]

I really want to kill half of you, but primarily FD, YFC and Copper. I have strong suspicions about each of you. Currently trying to get us to come to a consensus about a vote at this point, we're in 50 different directions right now.

So you 'primarily' want to kill the three players who have most votes?

AGar, if it were solely up to you, who would your vote be on right now?

[Lord Fonzi]

Yos, your read on Copper, please.

[Lord Fonzi]

unvote, vote: Copper

Explain later.

A reminder for you, Fonzi.

Oh, believe me, I haven't forgotten.

Also, oh look. As soon as attention switches to Copper over FD, FD starts lurking again. Who could possibly have predicted that?

[Lord Fonzi]

Can Lord Fonzi and PC actually give their cases now? The only evidence I see arrayed against Copper are that he's avoided the spotlight (which strikes me as normal for Copper), a non-existent scumslip and the suggestion that he's trying to chain lynches by voting Balam, which strikes me as nonsensical; we do have a problem with the Balamvote but our problem lies with its uselessness;

If you're going to use a meta defence, let's see it, because 'avoiding the spotlight' is one of those things I consider to be a prime scumtell.

In actual fact, I think I am ready to explain my change of vote there, because it's done what it needed to.

Essentially, my problem with Copper was that I had a very hard time tying them, or ruling them out as being tied to, everyone in the game. Neither their attack on Balam nor FES screamed bus, but nor did it look like the kind of attack that was especially unlikely to be one. The only slot that really made any effort to attack them, UB, I had as probtown anyway. Most people just seemed to be completely ignoring them, or as I said, just kinda lazily assuming they were protown because they sound reasonable. (That said, I do think their response to me and PC putting a little spotlight their way was really, really weird, illogical, and scummy). PC basically summed up my concerns: that they were that middle-of-the-pack slot that doesn't do anything massively scummy, but doesn't assert itself on the town very much either, and often ends up flipping scum. I don't actually buy the 'slip' thing, btw. I never think that kind of thing is particularly useful- I call it 'gotcha' scumhunting.

At the same time, FD was reacting fairly predictably to being a major wagon, with the same kind of 'How dare you wagon me' kind of outrage we saw on day one. So, when PC voted Copper, I saw the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. To force people to actually react to a bona fide Copper wagon, and to see if FD resumed coasting once the pressure was turned down a little. The answer to the latter was an emphatic yes.

As for the Copper reactions, I saw a few things. Yos came down so hard on the fence, that his colon probably has splinters. Balam showed the courage of their convictions in their Copper vote in a position that looked like it might make a Copper lynch an actually realistic prospect, which allayed my concern that Copper and Balam were distancing each other, while Balam softly supported a Yos lynch and Copper kept their noses clean by sticking with the bus. And Spot... well, Spot just came across all frustrated that Yos wasn't dead yet, which fits what I'd expect genuinely tunneling town to do. FES came out with a kind of equivocal 'Don't see the case, explain please' kind of thing that appears to be defence, but leaves open the possibility of joining the wagon later if the case is more persuasively stated.

unvote, vote: FD

[Lord Fonzi]

Also note that Fate has made a total of 22 posts in other parts of the site during the last 18 hours.

[Lord Fonzi]

Hey kids, guess who it is. Sorry I haven't made an appearance lately.

I think my other head has it pretty spot on with the FD thing. Does anyone want to defend them? They ought to at least defend themselves.

I have a problem guys. Incognito is town.

[Lord Fonzi]

End of yesterday.

THIS HYDRA WILL NEVER VOTE COPPER OUTSIDE OF LYLO.

SO SHUTTHEFUCK UP.

ONLY REASON HE'S NOT A 10 IS THE NITPICKS HE'S DONE OF OUR PLAY AND THE WAY HE SLOWROLLS JUS TABOUT EVERYGODDAMN VOTE.

Copper-Good postings, based on style, weakest town read

Early today.

Now Copper's supposedly my scumbuddy because a) I'm voting him and not Copper and b) Copper has a wagon on him. That's it. FD did not once suggested that Copper was in the least bit scummy from the start of today until I returned to voting FD.

Day two, after joining the gummybear wagon, not coincidentally after FES unvotes him:

AGM and I were tossing around the idea though that Yos was hard defending FESTown because he knew he'd get PoE'd by us if FES flipped town.

Yoscayke's bullshit linking of Gummy bear, AS WELL AS Unicorn's bullshit linking= scumteam call time:

Yos
Gummy
Unicorn Brethren

Daspot, stop fucking posting.

As your top #1 town read in this thread, please listen to me and stop posting.

YosCayke is scum, yes, that fact will not go ignored by me. I'm not likely to die tonight anyway, so you can bet your ass I'll be on him in the morning. If not, well YOU certainly won't die and you can push him then.

But start of day three, FES is suddenly SCUM SCUM SCUM and 'needs death soon.' Except, wait, what's that? Yos is attacking him as well! He suddenly remembers the 'Yos is scum buddying FES' theory, and adds us in as well because we're also attacking him.

Then Balam is scum because

Threw his town read in the trash by saying "ok cool we'll lynch FD today. But we wanna PLynch UB today instead because they are playing stupid >_>b"

Read as: he expressed some suspicion of FD, so now he's scum too.

But lo, what? Balam is now pushing a wagon that isn't FD, and might get lynched over him. All of a sudden as if by fucking magic, the take it to the bank scumread on Balam disappears, and the target of the counterwagon is now scum with the two people most consistently calling Fate scum.

SO NO, FATE, I'M NOT CALLING YOU A NO CONTENT LURKER. I'M SAYING THAT EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER SAID, OR DONE, HAS SEEMED TO HAVE THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DISCOURAGING PEOPLE FROM ATTACKING YOU. When no-one was attacking you, you basically did fuck all. And here's the clincher: when we attacked you about your posting pattern at the start of the day, you said:

If I had free reign I'd be posting every damn day. As it stands I signed up as ahydra so I usually wait for AGM and we make a joint post.

He's disappeared, so I post.

THIS HAS BEEN THE ACTUAL PATTERN

Me posting when I'm tired of our hydra's lurkin and waiting for AGM as our schedules don't mesh well.

IE, that particular period of lots of posting when under fire came because AGM wasn't around, and so you just took the load upon yourself. Now you're saying that this particular period of lurking was caused because AGM wasn't around, so you couldn't post.

Do you really expect us to believe that every time you were under attack, that was a convenient time to post, and every time the heat died down a little, you weren't able to post because you were waiting for your partner? HOW FUCKING DENSE DO YOU THINK WE ARE, FATE?

[Lord Fonzi]

I don't really understand FD's defense. It's like he reads what my other head says, then does exactly what he is accused of doing, and then acts as if the whole thing's been put to rest. What sort of idiots are you used to playing with?

Yos:

That's actually a pretty decent explanation. Urgh.

- Incog

Has anyone else in this game actually listened and been convinced by someone's explanation? Incognito is just about the only one not trying to engage in a shouting match to prove his point, and that's town as hell. This post alone convinces me that he's town. The whole exchange between you and Incognito just screams town.

Do you think Incognito's scum or do you think the slot is scum? I have thought for a while that the slot is scum because they've played like it. I tend to give more weight to replacements than the original though.

[Lord Fonzi]

The thing is FD, that you claim that you have limited access, but then post four times in a row after I voice suspicion of you. You only turn up when you're accused of something.

[Lord Fonzi]

Incog... That's a load of crap. You just replaced in, and you're acting like there's some great body of work coming from you. You've been prolific to be sure, and your posts are better than most other people in the game. I just find it disingenuous to claim that you're the most townie in the position that you're in. And self-serving to boot. If YFC is the one in trouble here, shouldn't you be more concerned with what you think of his alignment than the other way around?

I don't really see anything to gain out of trying to respond to FD at this point, since he has refused to even talk with anyone he disagrees with. (SCUM SCUM SCUM)

Why do PC and YFC suspect each other? Why does FES suspect PC? This is just town on town. Have you guys tried looking at recent behaviour assuming that the other is town? I mean, I can't imagine why anyone expects Yos to crumble under pressure, or why that would have anything to do with his alignment.

[Lord Fonzi]

God, Fate makes me so fucking angry it's untrue.

KEEP TWSITIN ROUND AND ROUND.


All right, you want to call me scum for V/LA abuse? MAN THE FUCK UP. That's shitI would

NEVER

pull. Its low, its dirty, its cheap. I earn my wins through sweat and blood for fucks sake.


AGM's absences are REAL you fucking clowns. I made a promise at the start of the game (or an inclination at least) to try and only post joint posts. ITS NOT FUCKIN SCUMMY TO STICK TO THAT.

No-one's saying that AGM's absences are fake, you fucking douchebag. We're pointing out that you're posting when you're under attack, and not when the pressure dies down. This is 100% true. It is also true that, at different times you have used 'Well AGM wasn't here so I was posting on my own, without having to wait for him' to explain your rise in posting when you were attacked, and 'Well AGM isn't here, so I couldn't post' to explain your not posting in thread when you weren't coming under fire. I don't doubt that AGM is frequently absent, as Gurgi is; what is very dubious is the notion that your periods of inactivity due to his absence happen to coincide perfectly with whenever you weren't being attacked.

Convienent flip on Copper? I never had strong town read on him, it was always WEAK and I always believed that e was a player worthy of keeping around (For his ability to catch scum, to draw NKs, etc.)

You called him the towniest player in the game at one point. Never seems a little strong.

Now that he's still alive and hasn't done shit, YEAH ITS BOUT TIME I reveal that weak town read was a weak gut scum read.
DERP

At precisely the point a wagon on him springs up, with the potential to rival your own. Using a load of bullshit craplogic to try to tie him to the players who are most attacking you.

SHOW ME. If memory serves all Fonzi said was "tehehehe vote explain later COpper"

then when asked to explain later

">_>
<_<"

then finally

"Oh it was for lulz."

This is such a massive, scummy misrepresentation I don't even know where to start. It wasn't for lulz- I explained very clearly what the purpose of the vote was, and what it achieved. I was suspicious of Copper- people seemed to be ignoring him. I tried to engineer a situation where people were forced to comment on them. In the course of doing so, one of the possibilities for copper-scum became less likely, while you did exactly what I would have expected you to do if scum.

If you had posted AT ALL between me voting Copper and my unvote, expressed any kind of opinion either way, it might have given me pause. Whether you'd gone "I think Fonzi is scummy, but they have a point" or "OH YOU'RE GOING TO BUS ARE YOU? FINE BY ME!" or even gone 'OMG FONZ IS TRYING TO DRUM UP A BULLSHIT WAGON ON COPPER WITH NO REASONS TO DISTRACT ATTENTION FROM HIS SCUMBUDDY YOS!" it would have been useful information. Instead, you used your partner's absence as an excuse to lurk, and wait to see if I would commit to the copper wagon or return to you before giving your opinion.

How is that pushing a wagon? His vote sat there for no reason, which took advantage of my limited joint-posting habits, and then came out with a "OH LOOK FD IS LURKIN AGAIN WHEN I VOTED COPPER TROLOLOLOLOL" aka he used his vote on Copper to push MY MISLYNCH ultimately.

I didn't force you to behave scummily in response to the wagon, Fate. And you're completely ignoring the fact that

without me, there's never a copper wagon in the first place.

As for your 'OMG Fonz is a hypocrite because he's attacking me and not Copper who's behaving similarly.' Firstly, as I've said before, the player most similar to you here isn't Copper, it's FES. Since the FESwagon died down, they've hardly been a bastion of scumhunting either. Secondly, quite clearly, I do suspect Copper, as you can tell from, like, all the things I've said about Copper, him looking like coasting middle-of-the-pack scum etc.

You're just a fountain of excuses, Fate, and you act like anyone who doesn't believe your excuses can't possibly have a town motive. But the facts speak for themselves. Apart from the brief passage when you jumped off to push a town wagon you'd previously completely ignored over the top, your vote has been on the person most strongly suspecting you all damn game. Playing to survive. End of.

[Lord Fonzi]

As for the claim, it's pretty meh. It does suggest RB if Yos were to be scum. It's not confirmable. I still don't think he's particularly likely to be scum, though, at least in part because Yos never actually seems to get run up when he actually is scum, but more to the point because the case on him remains retarded. Making town reads and putting your neck on the line for them seems a pro-town thing to do in the abstract.

[Lord Fonzi]

To be honest, I don't like Yos' reason for suggesting Mastermate is town, same as I didn't like his point about FES and the giving warning of L-1. If Balam is town, the chance of them quickhammering is pretty slim. 'Watch out, L-1' type behaviour is something I often see from scum, because it looks townish, but doesn't actually hurt the scumteam's chances that much. (That said, MM is still town due to Unitard Brethren's attempt to break the game with QTs).

[Lord Fonzi]

I KNOW, RIGHT, MOST AWESOME BACKPEDAL EVER.

I KNOW, RIGHT, IM JUST GOING TO BACK AWAY SLOWLY AFTER BEING CALLED OUT FOR THE SCUMMIEST ROLEFISHING THATS EVER FISHED AND SAY "LOL FD BACKPEDALED AGAIN <_< >_>

LOOK THATWAY A DISTRACTION!"

YOURE FUCKING DEAD.

SOON.

Fate, who's town now? Me or Copper? You're running out of room in your scumgroup to put everyone who suspects you.

Your recent spurt of posts are a tale told by an idiot scum, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[Lord Fonzi]

I'm here. Looks like fate might be gone though.

[Lord Fonzi]

My thoughts-

I've never seen a scum JK in a completed game.
Struggling to see any way Balam's actions here make sense for scum.

[Lord Fonzi]

OK, so Yos isn't clear beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the 'TROLOLOL HE'S A SCUM ROLEBLOCKER' argument goes out the window at least.

Hopefully, this should make the right choice today even clearer.

[Lord Fonzi]

unvote

Don't know what the fuck to think right now, but I know this doesn't need to end soon.

[Lord Fonzi]

I don't actually have a problem with FD's claimed investigations. They're consistent with their play, and investigating someone where your gut reaction is to defend makes sense. If they're scum, you claim and get rid of them, if they're town you don't have to perform a massive 180 to defend them. If they'd investigated FD, say, then it would have been very difficult to turn around and defend them from the get-go without giving their role away.

[Lord Fonzi]

I think I agree with the above. There seems to be stronger motivation to fake on the part of FD, who were pretty much certainly going down if they didn't do something spectacular, than Balam, since there were pretty good odds of FD being lynched anyway when he claimed.

If we lynch Fate and he's town, then the worst that can happen is the game goes to endgame, because I can't see for the life of me why scum Balam would pull that gambit to save a town Yos.

If we lynch Balam and he's town, the situation is much worse, because we aren't then handed two scum and two confirmed innocents (as I type this the possibility of there being a godfather enters my head. Humph). Nonetheless, I think it's both more likely Fate is the scum here, and town's also in a better position if we're wrong that way, than if we go for Balam and he flips town: in that scenario, scum get an extra day of LyLo.

Vote: Final Destination

[Lord Fonzi]

Your point is moot at best, Balam, since he's not claiming to be vanilla. It does make sense for a cop to lie low.

I'm now pondering a conspiracy theory by which scum Balam claims to cause a Fate lynch, in the knowledge that after a Fate town flip, Balam will die himself, but Yos as town would be so closely tied to him that scum were pretty much nailed-on to win anyway.

[Lord Fonzi]

Your point is moot at best, Balam, since he's not claiming to be vanilla. It does make sense for a cop to lie low.

I'm now pondering a conspiracy theory by which scum Balam claims to cause a Fate lynch, in the knowledge that after a Fate town flip, Balam will die himself, but Yos as town would be so closely tied to him that scum were pretty much nailed-on to win anyway.

That seems unnecessarily risky. Balam was already the swing voter; he was already likely to decide if I got lynched or if Fate got lynched himself even before he claimed. If he wanted me dead, he could have hammered me, and if he wanted Fate dead, he could have just left his vote there and kept Fate at lynch -1. For that matter, in your hypothetical situation (Balam scum, Fate town, Yos town), Balam-scum would probably have been able to lynch one of (Yos/Fate) today, and lynch the other tomorrow, pretty easily, without needing any kind of claim at all to do so.

If that's true, about Balam essentially holding the lynch in his hands, then why does he need to claim at all?

[Lord Fonzi]

Fonzi, the only way that works is if Balam really is a rolecop. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but we'll know if that's the case as soon as Balam flips, and I don't see why he'd try to draw a claim from FD in a way that outs him as scum when he could have used his real target from either night instead, especially given how much suspicion FD was under.
- smarg

Why does it require Balam-cop? Yos had already claimed in the thread. Claim FD is vanilla, if you're right you appear to be confirmed, if you're wrong, it sets up a 1-1 that you can probably win.

[Lord Fonzi]

Yos pretty clearly meant Jailkeeper.

[Lord Fonzi]

Yos, you blatantly stole that cointoss idea from me.

[Lord Fonzi]

It doesn't strike me as impossible, in a one-scumteam game with a rolecop, that the mod would have given the scum a JK with the protective ability being redundant, to protect said role from the rolecop.

[Lord Fonzi]

We chose Final Destination on Night 2 because of their U-curve play. At first they were actively hunting in the thread, and then when they weren't getting their way with Frogito Ergo Sum, Fate pouted and the activity decreased up until we pushed the GummyBear flash wagon. If they were a power role, their lying low would have made sense as town play; otherwise, there wasn't a reason for them to play that way.

Wait, if that's true, why did you not support the wagon out of the gate?

It doesn't strike me as impossible, in a one-scumteam game with a rolecop, that the mod would have given the scum a JK with the protective ability being redundant, to protect said role from the rolecop.

YosFlavouredCayke's ability is specifically protection and roleblocking. They're not an alien.

[/quote]

I didn't say anything about an alien. I said that the lack of a second killing group suggests, but does not confirm, that the role is in town hands, since there could be a scum JK so that the rolecop doesn't go 'Roleblocker derp lynch."

[Lord Fonzi]

unvote

Not really a change of intent, I just got really burned by leaving someone in quickhammer range overnight once, and i don't intend to repeat it.

[Lord Fonzi]

Wait we're town now, FD? Because we unvoted? Seriously?

I am impressed by the size of your balls to actually use the word appeal in your emotional appeal.

People that think Yos is scum: Ahahahaha.

[Lord Fonzi]

DaSpot said he targeted me night 2 and got a result that the mod has now confirmed is ambiguous, but is entirely consistent with the possibility that he was roleblocked last night (he got "no result" both times, which the mod has confirmed could either mean that his target didn't go anywhere or that Spot was roleblocked). That's not unusual, a lot of mods give trackers results that are ambiguous like that, there was just recently a MD thread on the subject. There is no contradiction between my claim and Spot's.

There is however, virtually zero possibility that all four are telling the truth (unbalanced) and there's a direct contradiction between two of them. Balam is right, voting Yos here makes no sense regardless of who you think is the liar out of Balam and FD.

[Lord Fonzi]

Well, there's the fact that if we lynch wrong, we lose one of the two investigators. It's not so much that FD gives most info, as he has the lowest downside.

Has the issue with the tracker and potential roleblocking been cleared up to everyone's satisfaction? If so we should be good to go.

[Lord Fonzi]

I will hammer in approximately three hour's time.

I just thought of something. Cop-tracker-JK seems balanced. So does RC-tracker-JK. Take away that Jailkeeper, though, and the game doesn't seem balanced to me, unless town has another power role still hiding. So if Fate were to flip town, then a massclaim the day after we lynch Balam ought to either exonerate Yos, or set up another effective 1-1.

[Lord Fonzi]

There... you... I..... I just have no fucking words right now.

[Lord Fonzi]

Fate, no. If you discussed something that you were doing in this game, at the same time it was happening

in this game

, whether or not you had done it before, that's talking about this game. You said it yourself, it could reasonably be inferred that he was talking about this game. That's on the far side of the 'acceptable' line.

Pre-edit: AGM, you're wrong. I don't think you're coming from a bad place, but you're wrong.

[Lord Fonzi]

I recommend that everyone cease posting, and allow the mod to speak to RayFrost and Fate individually about what transpired.

[Lord Fonzi]

Btw- we're vanilla. I know no-one's actually called for our turn yet, but it's only us and Mastermate left anyway.

Mastermate stalling for Yos' results when he was called to the plate in popcorn is not cool. I still have a really hard time seeing UB pulling the whole 'Let's quote QTs' thing as scum- but I also have difficulty seeing Primate and MoS being genuinely quite as stupid as their latest posts would make them look as if they're town.

Firstly, one town power, one scum power, in a 13p game is not nearly enough. For it to be even close, that role would have to be a full cop. Tracker and, say, scum RB, is not very far off mountainous- in fact it might even be worse because scum has scope to fakeclaim. And there's no way that 13-3 mountainous is balanced.

I'll address the points that I think can be engaged with here:

2) Claiming two strong power roles within a scum group, as FES pointed out earlier, is a hugely risky gambit, given that there are likely to be enough town power roles that the number of power claims make it obvious at least one and probably more of them are lying.

4) If Yos and Balam are town, then scum, even if they did see your breadcrumb, would presumably know it fake, because I don't think I've ever seen doc/jk in the same game, and rc/tracker/jk is balanced, where the addition of a doc isn't. You're having your cake and eating it here. Simultaneously arguing that the 'LOL underpowered town' setup is balanced, while pretending that a town Yos, who would know he is a Jailkeeper and be pretty sure Balam is a rolecop, what with having detected his role and everything, could somehow not only catch your breadcrumb, but believe it had a snowball's chance in hell of being real.

I will not accept a lynch other than Copper or PC today, because I'm pretty sure these two are scum, whereas I'm now torn between MM and FES for the last partner.

FES, who's scum?

[Lord Fonzi]

Mastermate and FES are on the shortlist for the third scumbag. Today, I want to lynch a sure thing, ie PC or Copper.

[Lord Fonzi]

Er, LF, how am I a sure thing? I mean think about the scum group you're proposing there - do you really think that grouping even makes sense?

You're a sure thing because I'm pretty sure that you and Copper are scum, but I'm not sure which of the two remaining players is your last partner. I don't see how that partnership doesn't make sense- I do think the arguments for Yos and Balam being scum don't make sense. I mean, you attacked Copper for a while, but you were happy enough to jump off to force a claim out of Yos. I don't see any interactions there that say 'Obviously not a bus' to me.

Vote: Copper

since Balam's on board.

[Lord Fonzi]

Wait, so you see how PC's attack on Yos protected Copper, but you don't see how Balam and Yos conspired to get FD lynched when Yos was nearly yesterday's target? How can you not see that at all? That is completely unfathomable.

What is completely unfathomable is your failure to see how little sense Yos and Balam as scum make, and how totally unbalanced having only one power role would be.

[Lord Fonzi]

I find it really hard to see how PC as scum with you would have had difficulty getting on Yos2, setting up copper to hammer, though. I mean, it was perfectly consistent with his stated beliefs. Today, PC saying he thought MM was scum, but at the same time chiding Yos for voting him, seals it for me. They're both scum.

Vote: Mastermate