Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Amrun]

Oh my God, how are there 8 pages already? Catching up.

[Amrun]

Okay, I've read, and for 8 quick pages, there's remarkably little comment. I don't have a lot I feel the need to say. I have several town reads, but I won't explain them until they become relevant and I'm not sure why so many people have done so.

VOTE: IceyCupcake

They are either town or third-party that doesn't interfere with town, imho, and I'll give this a go and see what happens.


In a more general sense, why has no one but chess addressed ABR's plan to mass-attack one scummy player at night? It could even be modified to "attack whichever of the following players X, Y, and Z are scummiest to you," which would take care of protection problems that chess proposed. However, that makes it less immediately effective but probably more effective long-term. Possible drawback: if one of those players is town, it might give scum an advantage as they could add their attacks in.

I think ABR's proposition should have received more attention than it has. Is protection really an issue against the whole town's attacks? I don't know how protection would function in this game, and I did not play and have not read its predecessors, so perhaps someone who has should weigh in.

The two scummiest players, currently, are Pine and implosion.

Pine, what inconsistencies made you vote for Soben?

Pine has more content to analyze than implosion, but it's hit and miss. Some of it is okay, and some of it is not. All together, I don't feel good about it.

implosion has played strangely so far. Hydra-hunting as a first priority and no scumhunting, despite being around.

Unvote; vote implosion

That being said...

Soben: Why hide a head of your hydra?


I'm not sure what I think of the SGR wagon yet. I see the reasons it exists, but it all feels very text book and my gut disagrees with it. I'll see what develops there.

[Amrun]

Oh, and Snake, what does good arrows mean?

[Amrun]

Pine, your early and your most recent posts are attrocious, but more importantly, you flip the fuck out any time anyone even suspects you a little bit, and it doesn't come off as town to me. You also didn't quote all the reasons I gave for suspecting you, as bare as they were, but you still misrepresented me in an attempt to discredit me.

And I think SGR has a point without even knowing it. You're far too serious. I've never seen you play so srs business, ever, and the change in playstyle is bothering my gut.

With your recent posts,especially the blatant 3rd party hunting, your body of work becomes scummier than implosion's.

Unvote; Vote: Pine

Beefster, want to explain how the logic of my one post is circular, and then how that makes you so sure I'm scum?

[Amrun]

You flipped out even in RVS, stating someone was "ripping your face off" when no such thing was happening. On phone, sorry for lack of specifics.

And Pine, seriously, mod flat-out says that a potential 3rd party wincon won't end the game. You're reaching.

[Amrun]

How do you know they even have the power to do that?

And what about the multiple people idea that basically negates that complaint?

[Amrun]

Mana: Several on-going games (which I am dead in). Possibly a complete one, but I don't remember. I also checked out his meta for another game, and light-heartedness was a trend. I need to check again to see if srs-bsns freak-the-fuck-out face was used as scum.

Katy: How are Pine's huge piles of AtE making you think town?!

Icey: One head?! Which head?! Your heads have different roles?

Soben: Do your heads have different roles?

[Amrun]

Beefster, are you kidding me? If you think that's why I'm coting for Pine, then you're hiffing glue. And I have been in B-Mod game where the mod said it was theoretically possible for hydras to have diff roles. Is it likely? Of course not. But the hydra just said they have different roles, so asking for clarification is in order.

I asked you a question, Beefster. I see you dodging it, though.

While nothing more needs to be said about Beefster's obviously nothing-of-substance attacks on me, I'm commenting to confirm what I suspected at first. If Pine flips scum, this is a blatant chainsaw by Beefster.

[Amrun]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 01&start=0

The game is ongoing, but this has nothing to do with gameplay itself.

The mod said this somewhere in the bowels of the thread, which is 100 pages and going strong. Good luck finding it, because I'm not even going to try. The game in question isn't important. I wouldn't have asked the hydras if they had different roles if one of them hadn't blatantly stated that they do.

[Amrun]

Icey: One head?! Which head?! Your heads have different roles?

Anyone who has played with GI before knows that he is naturally a jester by default.

What is this I don't even

[Amrun]

I have. Several times, in fact. We get along splendidly.

Either way, how that makes claiming one head is a jester okay is beyond me.

[Amrun]

Kind of like you did in the following posts, the first of which is the one in which you vote me for the first time?

Amrun's post here is a mess of circular logic.

Unvote

VOTE: Amrun
-----

People in my BW:

Fairly Positive Town: NO ONE.
Leaning Town: WC
Null: Katy, Mana_Ku, Gandalf, DryFit. and chesskid
Leaning Scum: InhimshallIbe
Fairly Positive Scum: LynchMePlz

I'm not a big fan of lots of null reads like this- It's understandable that you can't exactly trust everyone, but it seems like you're trying to be too conservative with your accusations- so you avoid getting accused of inconsistency. Plus your analyzing your own wagon, meaning you're biased.
*Weak defense*

What? I thought you voted me before I voted you.
This changes EVERYTHING.

honestly i have no idea which order it came in, nor does it matter

*Trivially conditional accusations*

Oh, BTW: On that same game, you can also see I'm wanting a big-ass RVS, just like in here.

I was town in that game.

I hate to go Meta on your asses, but its either that or getting lynched.

Why so defensive? You're just over halfway toward being lynched. If you're town, you have nothing to lose at this point, nor is there a risk. If you had kept your cool, this would have resolved itself soon. But since you're so keen on defending yourself way before it's necessary...
*Overreaction*

That's three strikes.

Unvote

VOTE: SGR

Why so defensive? You're just over halfway toward being lynched.

Because I am over-defensive as Town and there's nothing I hate more than being lynched.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

More meta.

This post looks genuinely townie to me. A scum response would have been more subtle.

Unvote

Responses noted. No further questions.

VOTE: Bunnylover

Unvote

VOTE: Icey

Unvote

VOTE: Amrun

This is a fun way to FoS

Just as I thought, Beefster, you had no real reason to think my logic was circular and no real reason to think I was scummy based off of that post, which makes it much more likely to be a chainsaw. In the very least, it is a bad and scummy attack.

Even if I had voted for two people in the same post because I thought they were both scum, that's not circular logic. It sounds to me like you were just throwing out a fancy word with no idea how to actually prove it in an attempt to discredit me. For what reason, I don't know, but as I said, it could be a chainsaw for either Pine or implosion. Pine is more likely after the repeat behavior.


Katy: AtE is Appeal to Emotion, for future reference.

[Amrun]

I wouldn't have taken it seriously without the "we're jesterlike" in their first post.

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

I've thought about it and decided Beefster is more likely to be scum. Pine is still a good lynch, though.

[Amrun]

Icey, thoughts on Beefster?

[Amrun]

All the more reason to have multiple targets, Soben. Problem solved.

Also, thoughts on Beefster?

[Amrun]

His attacks on me make sense to you, then, Soben?

[Amrun]

No, he said I had circular logic. I asked him how, and he said, "Well, I guess you don't, but I also thought you voted two people in the same post, which is scummy, but you didn't do that either". So basically I never did any of the things he accused me of - but HE has done them, as I pointed out - but still votes for me just because he wants to look consistent.

That is how I read his posts. I'm asking around because I want to see if others read them the same way.

[Amrun]

That is how I read his posts. I'm asking around because I want to see if others read them the same way.

I read it as he suspects and votes you for using cicular logic. He noticies you asking irrelevant questions therefore feels better about his vote on you. He then realizes he has misread your initial post and agrees that you didn't in fact use cicular logic however is still suspicious towards you thus keeps his vote on you.

And that says "town" to you?


BSpice: Agree about Pine in full.

[Amrun]

I am no longer concerning myself with those details. I don't know why it's so hard to understand why I was alarmed by a hydra who has already claimed a "jester-like" role said that one of the heads was a jester.

[Amrun]

The misrep is lovely. I am not "panicking.". In fact, I could not care less that your vote is on me. It's a coincidence. What a common scum fallback - their attack is proven terrible and they go "lololol reaction fishing!"

If you'll notice, chess kid's vote is on me and I don't care. I care about your vote because you came to it in an excessively scummy way.

I have not dropped my suspicion of pine and I was never suspicious of Icey. I am also suspicious of implosion, but he's not around to answer questions.

Calling my suspicions of you OMGUS when you have zero basis for your attacks is such a sad, sad reach. Someone asked you a question about them, by the way, that wasn't me. You dodged again.

And the FoS rather than vote on Pine is really weak. Sounds like a weak bus, but you being scum is independent of Pine.

And I was soliciting responses from everyybody, but addressed a couple of people in particular simply because they were on and posting.

[Amrun]

So you suspect Soben, but agree with their scumreads, implosion? O.o

[Amrun]

Icey, is RBT seriously usually aggressive? Hmm. I need to meta him to decide for myself.

Did you ever check out Beefster?

I am not as sure on Pine anymore, either. His lynch wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen today, but it isn't the best, either. Hence why my vote has been off him a long time.


Also, WrathChild, why would a town player have an evil alignment? My alignment isn't evil. But apparently the sorcerors were the bad guys last time instead of town like now? So idk.

[Amrun]

You're undead?

[Amrun]

You were not at L-1...

[Amrun]

WrathChild looks like he's looking for wikitells to accuse people of without looking at motivation.

Icey, I'll tell you what I think of RBT if you tell me what you think of Beefster. :3 If you did and I forgot it in a sleepy stupor, nvm. >.>

[Amrun]

I vote for not lynching Pine today.

@Amrun: That was my clever way of telling Mama off when whe asked about why I wanted to know about alignments. In fact the way you spun that little attack on me seems very scummy. You just made your way to the top of my recommended reading list.

Good for you. Your clever way of telling her off wasn't so clever. She wasn't fishing. My accusation of you wasn't something serious. It's a note, more to myself, to remember. You've done nothing to impress me so far. You've pushed to keep the game in RVS and made half-assed, poor attempts at throwing suspicion onto people. You're not close to my top suspect, and I'm not even sure I suspect you, but don't act as if you're the paragon of towniness, either.

p-edit: Look at Beefster. That's the only case, and it is bad.

[Amrun]

It's kind of cute you think I was ever pressured by you, Beefster.

Why did you vote for two people in the same post, AGAIN? Conveniently, your top 3 suspects are the 3 that suspect you.

You're still dodging Mana_Ku's (I think) questions.

[Amrun]

Yes, he did.

[Amrun]

But I thought voting two people in the same post was showing scummy backtracking?

[Amrun]

Beefster, I was the very first one to express suspicion of Pine, as far as I know, in the post you called "circular reasoning.". But I'm sheeping? Yeah, okay.

And you accused me of being scummy because you thought I voted two people in the same post, but it's not scummy when you do it.

And responding to questions people ask you is standard. You don't have to break down a whoe case to respond to direct questions.

[Amrun]

That was a modkill, I think.

P-edit: this plan amuses me, but won't work in practice.

[Amrun]

It won't work because townies are bound not to claim and/or argue about why this plan isn't good.

It takes some of the fun out of the game, so we won't see universal yeses.

And modkilled players don't win no matter what, so it's pretty unfair.

I don't care either way, but if we do it, I won't put this game in my records.

[Amrun]

If it wasn't a modkill and all abilities resolve at the end of the phase, then what the hell was it?

[Amrun]

Is this a joke or did you actually kill Pine?

P-edit: i see, gandalf. I thought passive abilities counted in that end of phase thing.

I won't participate in the claiming plan until we know the consequences.

[Amrun]

SGR, condescending cupcake seems to be implying such a role.

[Amrun]

When you think someone is scum, you try and find out if a wagon is viable. I want scum lynched and can't do it by myself.

P-edit: lolololokay

[Amrun]

Katy? Probably B.

[Amrun]

If you don't know, then why did you unvote mana?

[Amrun]

Tin foil hat: What if scum get a free kill every time somebody claims? And they don't HAVE to use it on the person who claimed, but they used it on Pine because everyone was treating him like confirmed town?

WE'RE NOT CLAIMING ANYMORE

[Amrun]

Is no one really seeing what I am seeing with chesskid?

I don't know why you even hinted as much as you did, ck. I thought it would be way too obvious for scum.

Apparently not.

I feel paranoid that I'm making it up now.

[Amrun]

Mana-Ku: Town. Period.

Zdenek: Null. I flip flop on him a little. Overall, he has said very little, and I dislike his "placeholder vote." He has no suspects besides the lurker, really? But I liked the things he saw in Pine that he found scummy - because I found those same things scummy. Pine wasn't scum, so this drops back to null since I dislike some other things he has said.

Wrathchild: Leaning town. He flip flopped on me and very quickly. He said something and then dropped it once he realized it was unfounded. I generally see this as a town tell, since scum are more interested in looking consistent.

[Amrun]

Mana-Ku: Town. Period.

Zdenek: Null. I flip flop on him a little. Overall, he has said very little, and I dislike his "placeholder vote." He has no suspects besides the lurker, really? But I liked the things he saw in Pine that he found scummy - because I found those same things scummy. Pine wasn't scum, so this drops back to null since I dislike some other things he has said.

Wrathchild: Leaning town. He flip flopped on me and very quickly. He said something and then dropped it once he realized it was unfounded. I generally see this as a town tell, since scum are more interested in looking consistent.

Nice town reads. You got any scum reads?

What a pathetic, reaching attack.

You know perfectly well I have scumreads, since you're my top read.

You also know perfectly well that Soben asked for my opinoin on those three players individually.

Not sure why Soben did, since I'm supposedly a scumread of theirs that they agreed with my reads, but when someone asks me a direct question I answer it, unlike you.

[Amrun]

Beefster makes shitty attacks on me all day, I tell him they're shitty, and I'm scum? Okay.

[Amrun]

Wraith has already given his reads on me and Beefster, Icey. Try reading.

[Amrun]

You hadn't expressed those suspects. And when you unvoted Pine, you put a placeholder vote on a lurker, which told me you had no serious supects.

Either way, you're null, and if I had to pick, I'd say town.

Your votes are weak weak weak though.

[Amrun]

I was talking about the time you made the placeholder vote, not now.

Anyone that thinks both Beefster and I are scum seriously needs their head checked.

[Amrun]

That poost of. Gandalf's is giving me seriously bad vibes.

[Amrun]

Is no one really seeing what I am seeing with chesskid?

I'm not, but to be fair I haven't been making a particular effort to read into chesskids posts, I normally just judge him as obvtown or null.

Amrum, while you're online there's a few people I want your opinion on, they include Zdenek, Manu_Ku and Wrathchild.

This is post 45. Post 46 is my reads of those 3 players for Soben.
But that's not a response?

Beefster, reading the thread is not a scumtell and you're retarded and/or scummy for saying so.

All good town read the thread, looking for scum. It's something you ought to try emulating, even though you're scum.

Being town is not an excuse to not read the thread.

ITT I am called scum for reading the game. Smh

[Amrun]

You should put your vote back on beefster.

[Amrun]

Did you just suggest lynching the mason?

[Amrun]

CMAR, what were you trying to say? I still don't get it.

Beefster, I don't care if you're lazy town. All lazy people are not town, and twisting posts to mean something you want them to, and then saying you didn't read when your case falls apart because it makes no sense, is not a towntell.

NOT being lazy is not a scumtell.

Self-metaing does tend to be, though.

[Amrun]

I read it as "shift to CK3" the first time.

Also, grammar is tech. A comma before "CK3" would have made that sentence actual English.

[Amrun]

Admitting to a lie? Yes, I think so.

[Amrun]

14- Beefster [Healthy] (5) - Amrun, LynchMePls, ManaKu, BabySpice, gandalf5166

:snapshot:

And what is this supposed to mean? Please, be specific.

[Amrun]

What makes it interesting?

Why do you have Beefster as a town read?


I am starting to doubt a little and have Beefster as possibly bad town. I'm not sure yet.

[Amrun]

Let's hope not, because so far that head hasn't been very good at it.

[Amrun]

I was following up on my top suspect. That's called scumhunting, dear.

[Amrun]

Amrun I think you're pretty cool, and we're the same age and all, but you're SCUMMY. Very very scummy.

So I think I'm going to stick my vote to you and see if other people hop on or we will lynch someone else. 32 pages is already too much for Day 1.

You basically have to admit that Beefster's attacks were terrible. He's even admitted that.

He said, "You have circular logic and vote people in the same post." I didn't have circular logic and didn't vote people in the same post except voting Icey which everyone has done, but he votes people in the same post all the time.

Then he adds on a lot of other stuff which he can't substantiate either, culminating in, "Scum read the thread and town don't, so Amrun is scum."

He said his initial bad attacks were reaction fishing, and just this page or a page ago he admitted he lied about that. He's backtracked so many times.

Detailing to him why his attacks are incorrect isn't scummy. Telling me I'm scum because I read the thread IS a pathetic, reaching attack and that's just all there is to it.

I'm stuck at "dumb or scum" and I've been leaning scum all day, but lately, I've been reconsidering. Perhaps I'll be moving him to the dumb category when I re-read.

But please do tell me how debunking someone's terrible attack is scummy. I'd have done it no matter who he attacked, but it happened to be me. Either way it shouldn't matter.

[Amrun]

Why are you more aggressive than usual?

I'm not. I'm generally an aggressive player, though it does vary by mood a bit.

[Amrun]

And being "annoying" doesn't make me a good lynch, Icey.

[Amrun]

To be clear, Amrun doesn't annoy me, I feel that her emotional outbursts are off-putting and I can view them as dishonest. She strikes me as scum.

What emotional outbursts? I haven't been emotional about this game.

I just put my srsbsns scumhunting face on because I got interested in the game.

[Amrun]

There are a bunch of new players I haven't played with before in it and some interesting interactions going on and I think the set-up will be cool. Plus, I've never played a no-claim game on this site before and it's fresh.

And I found a suspect to pursue, which is always fun.

[Amrun]

What are the interesting interactions?

Initially, Pine/Beefster was the first one to spark my interest. Chesskid/ManaKu I noted but it wasn't particularly interesting.

Soben/town has been interesting because the heads are different and independently wrong.

WrathChild/CK was fairly interesting, too.

p-edit: I give up on Beefster. He seriously thinks that throwing out "food for thought" is less scummy than outright attacking and that a whole scumteam would be on his wagon at this point.

I'm tired of explaining why that's scummy. He's PROUD of being a bad player. It's the definition of a VI.

He could be scum, though, and dismissing him as a VI would be a bad move. I'm done with him for now, though. It's making my head hurt.

[Amrun]

He says he's bad town, he's proud of it, and he's not interested in changing or improving. That's what a VI means to me.

But perhaps it was a little too far. My apologies, Beefster. You are not playing well, though, and I make no apologies for stating that.

My interest was sparked, but I've been beating the same horse for awhile now and now my interest is waning. That is the natural progression of such things.

Baby Spice is leaning town to me at the moment, but is close to null.

My picks for scum if not Beefster are implosion and gandalf, with an outside chance of LMP.

Clearly even if those are all right, there are more scum. I need to re-read and/or do ISOs while thinking about some new things and looking for some new angles, which I will do when I get the chance.

[Amrun]

What are the points of these questions? They don't seem to have one.

[Amrun]

Not my intent to bully, instead trying to determine motivation. Sometimes my potty mouth can get me into trouble with twisting how I come across, though. Do you agree that his attacks on me are bad?

Does making a bad attack, being called on it, going "lolreaction fishing," being called on THAT, and saying it wasn't really reaction fishing seem town to you, though? Really?

In general, he throws very broad, unspecific suspicion on people, including me, like he's waiting to see how people react before making a real accusation, and that's a pretty reliable scumtell for me.

When each new attack he makes on me is debunked, he reaches further to find a reason to keep his vote on me, which is also a fairly reliable scumtell imo.

I do believe him that he's often lynched d1, but using that as a defense really strikes me off. He could easily be trying to abuse his own meta.

Those are the things that make me think he is scum.

But still, there's something niggling in the back of my mind that he really believes the attacks he's making are okay and is lazy town that doesn't read properly, which he admits to. This is a more recent development, and why I'm rethinking a little bit.

[Amrun]

Read it in context.

Amrun et al: You are scummy for xyz
Beefster: You are wrong. I am town.
Others: What about abc
Beefster: I am town though.

Doesn't explain his thought process or nothing, expects us to take it at face value.

Yes, exactly. So why do you have a townread on him?

[Amrun]

unvote, vote: Amrun

Had about enough of her attention-seeking and dropping Beefster's name every 5 posts. We're Day 1, dear. You don't have a guilty on him. Let it go. But I think you're scum anyway, because you try too hard and there's a dark cloud following every post you make.

I thought you were implying it with this post and subsequent posts.

Unless you think we're bussing each other?

[Amrun]

To clarify, I don't understand how you can both find me scummy and agree with me that Beefster is scummy. It seems incongruous.

[Amrun]

You call us both scummy, ie scum. Is there some nuanced difference there that I'm not seeing?

[Amrun]

Again as clarification, you call me explicitly scummy and vote me.

You explain why Beefster is scummy and explicitly do not have a townread on him.

"This is what bothers me about him" implies scumminess.

Why are you playing word games? Why not just be frank?

[Amrun]

I asked you a couple of questions you missed/ignored as well.

p-edit: How does being obtuse aid in scumhunting?

Do you find Beefster scummy or not?

[Amrun]

I was definitely town in Open 298.

My scum games are Execution Mafia, New Designers Mafia, and X-Files Mafia, in order of most recent to least recent.

[Amrun]

gorilla wasn't in that game...

If you're talking about chesskid's mini normal, then I was town in that, too.

[Amrun]

My interest was sparked, but I've been beating the same horse for awhile now and now my interest is waning. That is the natural progression of such things.

Unacceptable reason to give up on your case. If LMP were dead, I'd vote you. I'll probably end up doing it anyway.

I am not giving up on my case. Where is my vote right now?


I just think that the back and forth between Beefster and I has accomplished all it is going to for now.


Zdenek: You have just demonstrated to me that you do not read the thread. When asked for my opinoin of you, I went straight from memory because I do read the thread - amazing, right? I remembered being bothered by your "placeholder" SnakePlissen vote that you later tried to justify, but really liking your thoughts that camme with your Pine vote. One good point + one bad point = null. If 0pine had flipped scum, your good points would have outweighed the bad. I said all of this in less words in my other post. Gut leans town on you. Why are you nitpicking my read on you so? You can't know how I arrived at it, and what is more, it doesn't matter at all. Does my play read like someone who is avoiding confrontation? Not at all. As ABR said, I have been aggressive. Please try to make more sense.

I have already answered in very explicit terms why I think Beefster is scum and what bothers my gut to make me think he might be town in a previous post, so I won't do your reading for you.

[Amrun]

Still dodging all my questions, ABR?

[Amrun]

I was cooperative and answered your questions. And the attitude is all in your mind, for the record.

[Amrun]

I would quote the questions, but I post 95% of the time from my phone and you have no idea how annoying it is to quote parts of posts on there.

I did ask other questions in posts you responded to, such as, "Do you agree that Beefster's attacks on me were bad?"

When you respond to the post but not to the question, the natural assumption is dodge.

[Amrun]

Amrun, where do you stand on IceyCupcake now?

I am not sure, tbh.

Still town, probably, or harmless third party, but they haven't added anything of significance to the game except Grey's stance on RBT.

[Amrun]

Gandalf's reactions to wagons are usually telling.

Unvote; vote: gandalf

Not liking Beefster's current buddying with ABR, but it's time to explore new avenues.

P-edit: chill out. I still have you as a town read, so keep your panties on.

[Amrun]

I'm on the fence about gandalf. He has done some things I see as town and some scummy things. But after a wagon forms on him, I've always (so far) gotten a correct read on him.

[Amrun]

CMAR: If Beefster reads as scum and me as town, then nothing you have said makes sense - and yet, that's what you said. And what does "such as?" refer to?

Beefster: Once again, please read. I provided my scum games completed on this site since Soben was confused about it. I have been town in plenty of games more recent than that, which are all in my wiki, open to public consumption. Stop pretending I'm not directly responding to people when it's obvious I am.

[Amrun]

I pointed out AT least one scummy thing gandalf did. More will have to wait until my computer decides to stay on for longer than 5 minutes ata time.

[Amrun]

ITT Snake votes Dry-Fit for lurking. Lulz.

Soben: Gandalf is a player that doesn't react to singular votes unless they're on a wagon, so in this one case, it matters very little whether or not I state my intentions or not. Sometimes, it does.

P-edit: Ninjaed like 10 times.

Zdenek: calling me non-cconfrontational when I have been almost overly confrontational is silly at best, but however you want to look at it. I still lean scum on Beefster, but that is clearly not going to reach a lynch today. According to you, I should stop scumhunting because I found one possile scumspect? That makes no sense.

[Amrun]

Vig should kill town because I am interested in the game. Makes perfect sense.

[Amrun]

Your point is?

[Amrun]

Your point is?

Town collecting together to kill scum = group vig. We pick like two people, and vig them. Those who are too cool for it get lynched or killed themselves.

You do understand that this was my plan to begin with, that I proposed?

My point is that you wanting me vigged for, in your own words, taking the game too seriously, is laughable.

[Amrun]

Your point is?

Town collecting together to kill scum = group vig. We pick like two people, and vig them. Those who are too cool for it get lynched or killed themselves.

You do understand that this was my plan to begin with, that I proposed?

My point is that you wanting me vigged for, in your own words, taking the game too seriously, is laughable.

Because clearly we hadn't come up with that in the last two games either.

Also, I never said I wanted you vigged. But your extreme misrep is noted and... kinda makes me want you vigged.

Whatever made you think that post was directed at you?

[Amrun]

Oh, wait. I'm sorry.

I sincerely thought you were Beefster. My bad.

[Amrun]

Excuse me? Lol

[Amrun]

I don't believe you.

I want you dead now.

Either you're misrepping scum, or you're not going to be useful to the town because you can't tell who said what, and don't care to fix it.

It's pretty clear you haven't read the game at all. Like, at all.

[Amrun]

I read them:

RBT moves up from my "maybe needs to die some time in the future" list to "scheduled for imminent death."

But I still want the gandalf wagon to go somewhere, for now.

[Amrun]

RBT: Let me explain something to you. You are attacking me for "not reading the thread and not caring to fix my mistakes.". In reality, I made one small mistake and aplogized to you immediately after I realized.

You, on the other hand, have not read the thread closely enough to understand the following things: that the plan you "explained" to me was one that I originally proposed as an alternate to ABR's, and that other people are attacking me for reading the thread TOO carefully.

Furthermore, your other attack of me (OMGUS) is not at all a scumtell. And even if it were, you are more guilty of it than I am, just like you are obviously more guilty of not reading the thread and not caring to correct your mistakes. My vote is not on you, and I expressed suspicion of you before you ever expressed suspicion of me, further demonstrating that you are not reading the thread. I am also the largest wagon atm, so if expressing suspicion of someoene who suspects me is a scumtell, then I am in bigger trouble than is rational.

Your hypocrisy and feeble attempts at scumhunting until you hopped on the largest wagin for demonstrably poor reasons are what has earned you a spot in my top three. In fact, it has earned you number 1 spot.

Unvote; Vote Riceballtail

Call that OMGUS and see exactly how many shits I give. (Hint: none.)

[Amrun]

Gandalf: Switzerland is a tradiotannly politically even country, so I'm assumong within this context, "Swiss neutral" would mean not leaning either way (town or scum). Incidentally I have ISOed you again and decided to trust Katsuki's read on you for now.

SGR: I believe you are town, but you need to sit down and think carefully about your reads. You state thatG Beefster and I are not scum together, yet proceed to put us both in your top three based off of the cases we have made on each other. In addition, your top scumread is implosion, and I have been following my suspicion of implosion all game and in fact was one of the very first (maybe first, idk don't hold me to this) to express serious suspicion of implosion. Your reads need to reconcile all of these discrepencies.

[Amrun]

RBT: Let me explain something to you. You are attacking me for "not reading the thread and not caring to fix my mistakes.". In reality, I made one small mistake and aplogized to you immediately after I realized.

You, on the other hand, have not read the thread closely enough to understand the following things: that the plan you "explained" to me was one that I originally proposed as an alternate to ABR's, and that other people are attacking me for reading the thread TOO carefully.

Furthermore, your other attack of me (OMGUS) is not at all a scumtell. And even if it were, you are more guilty of it than I am, just like you are obviously more guilty of not reading the thread and not caring to correct your mistakes. My vote is not on you, and I expressed suspicion of you before you ever expressed suspicion of me, further demonstrating that you are not reading the thread. I am also the largest wagon atm, so if expressing suspicion of someoene who suspects me is a scumtell, then I am in bigger trouble than is rational.

Your hypocrisy and feeble attempts at scumhunting until you hopped on the largest wagin for demonstrably poor reasons are what has earned you a spot in my top three. In fact, it has earned you number 1 spot.

Unvote; Vote Riceballtail

Call that OMGUS and see exactly how many shits I give. (Hint: none.)

Umad? Just tell us if you're wizard-scum or magekiller-scum now.

(PS - It is OMGUS. Also, it wasn't the largest wagon.)

Assuming it was OMGUS, even though it obviously wasn't as I mentioned you before you ever mentioned me, explain how that is a scumtell.

As for the largest wagon, I could have been clearer there, but you MADE it the largest wagon. It was a top contender and now it is in the place for first with a great number of people off the wagon who were once on or would go on, which the other 3-wagon does not have.

Nice job failing to address your own hypocrisies, thereby increasing them in number.

And thx 4 the scumslip. Nice to know there are two scumteams. I'm assuming you're a mage.

[Amrun]

Town is sorcerors this game.

[Amrun]

It is not necessarily a scumslip, after mage inclusion in past games (didn't know), but it could be. In any case, my case can throw that out entirely and still be good.

Soben, what IS productive, in your eyes? Clearly, questioning your suspects isn't.

What do you think about RBT in general?


RBT: Once again, how is OMGUS a scumtell?

[Amrun]

Despite my one statement you take issue with, you think my push on rbt was contentless and did not push for content?

You do make one good point, though.

RBT, your scumreads with reasoning. Go.

[Amrun]

"I don't give a shit" is not offensive where I come from.

If you want to play that game, then, "Die, scum, die" is probably more offensive. (In other words, she did it first, mommy, neener neener neener!)

Not sure why my tone is being so widely interpreted as mean in this game. That's my issue, of course, but I assure everyone that I mean no harm to anyone and all I say and do is done in good fun. I am simply a flippant person, and the internet, etc.

Fyi, Soben, RBT thinks she has already presented a stunning case on LMP.

RBT: To clarify, I want your scumreads outside of LMP and myself, though if you want to exand coherently on those reads, please feel free.

[Amrun]

So SGR, if your reads don't make sense, your solution is to blame it on multple scumteams we have no evidence of existing?

[Amrun]

We have a very different philosophy of things, SGR. Like I said, I think you're town, but I don't even remotely uderstand the thought process behind this: "I agree with X and Y's cases on each other. X and Y are both scum!". (I also think the "case" on me is utter shit, but we can disregard that.)

[Amrun]

What makes it a scumtell?

You misread the tone of those posts you quoted anyway, but there is no way of showing you that definitively. Internet, etc.

[Amrun]

SGR, I totally disagree. I have been extremely cooperative, answering any and all questions to me to the best of my ability. Unless you have questions, then this is not all that productive.

Gandalf, you are, in fact, wrong. Note the "one scum faction" part of the rules Mana noted. Not all of the previous games had multiple scumteas and more than one scumteam is actuallt NOT the norm for larges despite your assertion otherwise.

It is possible that there are mutliple scum teams, but Ialways assume one until proven otherwise. Hunting scum on day 1 making baseless multiteam assumptions leads to the town chasing its own tail.

[Amrun]

You flat out refuse to give scumreads. How wonderfully obtuse (and scummy).

MrBuddyLee, if you ever skim this game, I say this to you: bacon cheeseburger.

[Amrun]

I questioned the point of the questions, but I answered each and every one.

You interpret those two posts as over reacting due to my strong statements inn them. That is not how I was feeling when I posted those. I was feeling a bit "I caught scum!" Giddy, actually. BUT I can see how you arrived at those conclusions.

It's ironic to me that you accuse me of mudslinging, since in my opinoin I did the opposite of that. Beefster was the one making vague, unspecific attacks on me AND specific attacks that were blatantly incorrect. I was factually correcting him. And yet, I am the one mudslinging.


I think you're town due to the way your wagon built and your reactions to it, and you trying to break the game (though 0i don't enjoy breaking games myself). This town read may be retracted upon new information, but for the purposes of today, I am not interested in lynching you.

[Amrun]

How is that mudslinging? It isn't at all. It isn't even an accusation.

[Amrun]

SGR, what you listed as my "points" against Beefster do not even remotely resemble my points. You clearly don't understand my case on Beefster, and I've explained it pretty clearly, so I am not sure whether pursuing this conversation is worthwhile, but the choice is yours.

And for people complaining that I'm "tunneling" on Beefster, that is clearly not the case. I have and have maintained several different scumreads, including but not limited to Beefster. I spent a fair amount of time questioning him when he was (but no longer is) my top scumread, and I really don't care if you think that's anti-town because it is not. However, much MORE time was spent on the issue than should have been because other people keep dragging the issue up, so I am obliged to respond.

I no longer have Beefster as a significant scumread and all talk of Beefster is in response to others questioning me, so any further accusations of tunneling will be ignored.

(Another protip: tunneling isn't a scumtell anyway.)

P-edit: My point is that scumhunting in that manner on day 1 is a terrible idea. It's like pissing in the wind.

P-edit 2 and 3: Agreed, but I won't roll over and be lynched, either. Let's just lynch implosion or RBT and be done with it.

[Amrun]

Damage:

1 RiceBallTail
2 Implosion
3 Zdenek

I keep changing my mind about the third.

[Amrun]

New list from me:

1. RBT
2. Snake
3. Zdenek

Have decided "night attack the lurkers" is actually a good plan, though I would only attack lurkers I also find scummy, like snake.

Implosion, I find myself liking your posts for what the do say (this recent batch) but hating them for what they don't see, namely your stances on anything, especially scummy players.

Your opinoin on RBT, gogogo.

P-edit: that's much better, but I still wanr more on RBT from you.

[Amrun]

And out of nowhere, a wild Beefster vote appears

[Amrun]

What does RBT have to do with that exchange?

[Amrun]

One, CMAR, who the hell do you mean.
Two, my opinion on RBT is out there, accompanied by a vote no less.
Three, nice chainsaw type defense, did you mean it that way?

But since people can't understand a pithy comment:

Beefster, that comment of yours was so wishy washy as to be pointless. Hence me describing it as fence sitting.
It smacks of trying appear good if RBT flips, regardless of the flip, and that sort of fence sitting is scummy as hell.

:goodposting:

[Amrun]

decided to forgo

[early day1 joke/random posts]
And

I've addressed topical stuff, I think, in the respective person

. But, if you'd like

my specific opinion about something earlier in the (game) day, please ask

.
quote]Honestly, it looks like you just threw that in at the last minute to make your post seem useful. The bolded parts are so incredibly general that they don't really have any meaning.

If the words "If you would like my specific opinion about something earlier in the (game) day, please ask" doesn't have meaning for you, then I can't really help you.
Perhaps this will help: http://translate.google.com/#

And I like the fact Amrun is taking it seriously. It's a game to

play

to

have fun

and to

win

.

Those 2 sentences have nothing to do with each other. Bus your scumbuddy already.

Let's use the Socratic method here.
Why do you think Amrun is taking the game seriously?
Do you think Amrun is playing the game?
Why do you think Amrun is playing the game?
Do you think Amrun has fun when she takes the game seriously?
Do you think Amrun has fun when she wins?

First of all: You don't really have to be playing seriously to have fun or win, especially in a swingy game like this. I thought my earlier comment would be enough to point that out, but apparently it wasn't.

Now I will respond with the Socratic method for the lulz.
Would you agree that Amrun is being far too defensive?
Do you always ask questions with such obvious answers?
Why do we have a moderator?
Do you think Batman has fun? What about the Joker? Are

you

having fun?
Doesn't everybody like winning?

And for the clear cut answers you probably wanted:
Amrun is making a bigger-than-necessary deal out of everything.
Yes.
It's mod-given information
I don't know (ask her yourself), and I think it's very well possible to have a great time and be off the wall ridiculous.
Not necessarily. It isn't all about the result. The journey to winning is fun if you play right, but if it's all about winning and not about fun, you're doing it wrong. Games are meant to be enjoyed. I think a more accurate term for winning is

satisfying

.

Shut up talking about me and how I enjoy the game. Seriously. Don't do it anymore.

I have been, in turns, serious and ridiculous, and that's how I enjoy the game.

Maybe you can enjoy the game while not playing well, but I have an obligation to try and scumhut to the best of my ability as town.

Shut up with your dumb philosophies about how it's okay to be a lazy, bad player. You can do that yourself all you want. Don't push it on me or anyone else.

You don't know me, so don't assert that you know how I think or what I enjoy. Talk about the game and game-related content, not me and my personality as if you can answer for me. If it's done one more time, I won't be pleased.

I enjoy the game by PLAYING IT. I won't stand for you discrediting snow_bunny's hard work by saying you don't have to try and no one should "in a game like this."

If you don't like it, replace out.

[Amrun]

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Snake, what gives you the impression that alliances get QTs? They don't.

Why is that more important than scumhunting?

Snake reeks of scared scum.

[Amrun]

I am not sold on Snakescum yet. It's hard to read lurkers, usually.

[Amrun]

Cold War mafia just finished. Every single scum lurked through days 1 and 2.

Just for reference.

[Amrun]

Snake, please list your suspects with reasoning.

[Amrun]

I'm sorry for not being much active now, but well, quite frankly, this is boring shit.
Warn me when this day finally ends.

I agree. However implosion isn't likely getting lynched today I don't think. Shift to RBT (he

is

on your damage list, so I assume you find him scummy.)

[Amrun]

We need to get our shit together, that's why it's a necessity.

CMAR: what is this about RBT maybe being town? What?

I strongly prefer an RBT lynch, but implosion is an okay alternative.

[Amrun]

implosion is not a credible wagon.

It's not the worst lynch, but it's not the best. RBT is much better.

[Amrun]

LMP, what doles "sold" mean to you? If I am sold on somebody being scum, I am 90% sure. I find snake scummy, much scummier than the other lurkers, but I'm not totally confident in him as scum. Neither are you. What's the issue?

[Amrun]

LMP, what doles "sold" mean to you? If I am sold on somebody being scum, I am 90% sure. I find snake scummy, much scummier than the other lurkers, but I'm not totally confident in him as scum. Neither are you. What's the issue?

What sucks is that you are fence sitting, but even worse than fence-sitting, you're doing it while trying to use strong language to hide the fact that you're fencesitting. Someone could argue that fence-sitting is null (I personally think it's a scumtell on its own) but I don't think anyone can argue that fencesitting that is intentionally worded to appear like not-fencesitting is scummy as hell.

I understand. This is a valid point. It is actually just me flip flopping a bit and waffling all over myself, but I see where you're coming from. I decided I spoke too strongly based on one post so I retracted a bit. I have seen town make a series of terrible posts early on before, and it's not enough to call it "reeking.". But I can see what you see if I remove what went on in my head from the equation, and it makes me feel better about your alignment, actually.

[Amrun]

We?

[Amrun]

implo posted a big case.

[Amrun]

I didn't say I agreed with the case. Just telling ABR for reference.

[Amrun]

Faraday, about RBT:

RBT: Let me explain something to you. You are attacking me for "not reading the thread and not caring to fix my mistakes.". In reality, I made one small mistake and aplogized to you immediately after I realized.

You, on the other hand, have not read the thread closely enough to understand the following things: that the plan you "explained" to me was one that I originally proposed as an alternate to ABR's, and that other people are attacking me for reading the thread TOO carefully.

Furthermore, your other attack of me (OMGUS) is not at all a scumtell. And even if it were, you are more guilty of it than I am, just like you are obviously more guilty of not reading the thread and not caring to correct your mistakes. My vote is not on you, and I expressed suspicion of you before you ever expressed suspicion of me, further demonstrating that you are not reading the thread. I am also the largest wagon atm, so if expressing suspicion of someoene who suspects me is a scumtell, then I am in bigger trouble than is rational.

Your hypocrisy and feeble attempts at scumhunting until you hopped on the largest wagin for demonstrably poor reasons are what has earned you a spot in my top three. In fact, it has earned you number 1 spot.

Unvote; Vote Riceballtail

Call that OMGUS and see exactly how many shits I give. (Hint: none.)

Umad? Just tell us if you're wizard-scum or magekiller-scum now.

(PS - It is OMGUS. Also, it wasn't the largest wagon.)

Assuming it was OMGUS, even though it obviously wasn't as I mentioned you before you ever mentioned me, explain how that is a scumtell.

As for the largest wagon, I could have been clearer there, but you MADE it the largest wagon. It was a top contender and now it is in the place for first with a great number of people off the wagon who were once on or would go on, which the other 3-wagon does not have.

Nice job failing to address your own hypocrisies, thereby increasing them in number.

And thx 4 the scumslip. Nice to know there are two scumteams. I'm assuming you're a mage.

There are lots of smaller points besides these. Some have been mentioned by others, but here are some more:

-Someone asked her to elucidate her LMP scumread, and she referred them to a "brilliant" case already posted, which does not exist
-She attacked me in a really obviously opportunistic way
-Possible scumslip (at time of above post, I didn't know magekillers existed in previous games)
-When asked to give scumreads or expand on the 2 (count 'em) reads she has given in 50 pages, she downright refuses


In general, she arrives at her reads in a very fabricated manner and reads like scum bad at fake scumhunting.

[Amrun]

That could have never happened and I'd still think RBT was scum.

[Amrun]

Mod as aplayer for that reason makes so much sense it's not even funny. :/

[Amrun]

But someone voted for the mod and it showed up in the vc.

Just sayin'.

[Amrun]

Good idea.

[Amrun]

I see no behavior in you that resembles my behavior. None.

And of course I was misrepresenting your views: I thought you were Beefster! It's not the same thing. When I post on my phone, it cuts off avatars usually and I made a mistake. I apologized for it.

I realized soon after that what I thought was a scumslip wasn't, really, but it doesn't matter, because I find you independently scummy. I was obviously accusing you of being scum before that for other reasons.

Refusing to give reads is not being pro-town.

RBT, is English your second language?

[Amrun]

RBT: I already explained myself several times. It's not waffling. I wasn't aware of the magekillers being in previous games. When I was made aware, I retracted that part. But as I said several times, that was not why I thought you were scum. I already thought you were scum by that point, so why would I retract that out of thin air?

[Amrun]

Oh, btw, THE MOD IS LYNCHABLE

MAGUA DIDN'T SHOW UP ON THE VOTE COUNT.

[Amrun]

It would be really great if you could stop triple posting.