The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Regfan]

I don't know whether to be happy or sad that I didn't die during the night. The biggest reason I joined this game was to fill a slot I thought was destined to be dead by morning. I've read glimpses of the game so far, about the last 4-5 pages of yesterday, reading into Feysals claim and ISO and doing a search for a specific word but other than that I'm nowhere near up to date and will make catching up my utmost priority.

Is there anyone or anything in particular I should be focusing on during my read through.

[Regfan]

I know I'll run into it at some point during my read through but I'd love clarification on what Watching from Thangorodrim and Seraphs are.

[Regfan]

Up to page 10, got a bunch of reads though they're likely to become irrelevant as I continue my read through, I really do want this answered though:

I know I'll run into it at some point during my read through but I'd love clarification on what Watching from Thangorodrim and Seraphs are.

[Regfan]

Thanks MoI, any other setup based information that I should be aware of? Has a mass-claim occurred yet and/or should it be occurring today?

Though page 20 and the amount of flavor and setup speculation is abysmal. From what I've read I'm leaning heavily towards Andrius, Furcolow, MoI and Ludi being town with weaker town-reads on MoS, Eli and to a degree Gut. I'd say that Mockingjaye and LordChronos are likely scum as well.

[Regfan]

Well by page 20 at least two of those are incorrect ....

Elaborate. Also an answer to have we mass-claimed and/or should we mass-claim would be nice. Also do you have Faradays/Minas reads and if so can you link me to a post that includes them or post them please?

At page 35 now and very confident in saying that I think Furcolow, MoI and Ludi are town. I really don't see mafia not being given a role either nor do I see mafia attempting to pretend not to have a role making Andrius likely town. Still have a slight town-read on Eli but my town-read on MoS and Gut has essentially vanished, not so sure on Mocking either, I skimmed a lot of her newer posts and plan on ISOing her when I'm done with this read-through.

[Regfan]

I'll get to Furcs exact claim later but from what I can tell this is very likely near lylo given the amount of town deaths so far and two third party claims along with likely inclusion of 2-3 more mafia. So yeah, I strongly recommend a mass-claim starting soon but I want to get through the rest of this read-through before it starts.

I'm going to take a slight break, go get some coffee and come back and knock it all over before noon my time, it's 8am at the moment.

[Regfan]

This is my post, apologies won't happen again:

Up to page 53 and this is taking slightly longer than I expected, I probably won't be fully through the thread and ISOing for another five-ish hours or so since I have to pop into the shops soon. Oh and just a heads up; I have no flavor knowledge whatsoever but am willing to borrow and read the book if it's really necessary.

From where I'm up to Andrius, Empking, Gut, Ludi, MoI and S&M are probably town and Furcolow and Feysal are claimed and near-confirmed third parties leaving the scum to be within a pool of [Elibereth, MoS, Mockingjaye, Kayne and Herodoteus] and inside those I'm more confident in Mocking, Kayne and Hero being scum.

[Regfan]

Almost up to page 70, roughly 10 more pages to read through, then some ISOing and time to step away from the computer to think about it and i should be fully caught up. I have to say thought that this read through so far has just solidified why I find Amrun an incredibly frustrating player to play with.

[Regfan]

I know this'll likely get ignored or shot down but I'd really like to get neighbourized by the Seraphs if possible, I have about 3434141 thoughts flowing through my brain right now that I'm used to discussing with a hydra partner about when replacing into games and not being able to voice it to anyone is highly limiting.

[Regfan]

I'll try and keep this as organised as possible though my explanations will likely be long winded but it's what happens after reading 75 pages in one sitting.

I think mass-claim is badly badly needed at this point. I also think majority of the open claims so far are from town and the mass-claim will allow us to attain a better idea of where the missing night-kills are as well as lock scum into claims forcing them to explain future night actions. The disadvantages to mass-claiming is slim.

I have relatively strong town reads on Magister Ludi, Amrun, MoI, Empking and Andrius. I have weaker town reads on Gut and MoS though my MoS read is incredibly weak in comparison to all of my other reads and my Gut read. That leaves scum to be inside a pool of Herodotus, Kanyeknowsbest, Elibereth and Mockingjaye.

Regards to Feysal/Furcolow:

Given the amount of town deaths and lynches it's vital at this point to be aiming for scum which Feysal most certainly isn't, the timing of his push on Espeonage reads very strongly against a bus though I do want him to explain his lack of targeting me last night. Also Furcolows attitude of asking to be vig-shot throughout the whole of D1 strongly backs up his claim which in turn supports the fact that Feysal shot at him. I see no reason whatsoever to doubt either of their claims being survivor and serial killer and even if Feysal is lying about his role to a degree I see no particular advantage in lynching him today.

Regards to Magister Ludi/Amrum

: I don't have any doubt whatsoever that they are masons/neighbourizers and even MoI at this point would have to agree upon this much. The ultimate fact is that she claimed to be a miller to Ludi N1 therefore her 'late-claiming miller' essentially means nothing at all and isn't a point for her being mafia. I do not at all see mafia sharing a 'neighborhood/mason quicktopic' and alerting her partner that she has control to a night-kill at all as she could just secretly keep it as an extra kill. Furthermore I'd say that it's highly likely that Espeonage was actually a neighbourizer who neighbourized Gandalf, I don't see it being likely that scum had 2 'neighborizers/neighbours' at all and while I understand this is a slight degree of over-reliance on setup speculation my town-read on the both of them stems from more then just that. Their reaction throughout the whole of yesterday to the claimed guilty read more as frustrated and annoyed town rather than anything else. Overall MoI, you need to cut it out with this "More votes on SaM!!!! attitude that you had for the later half of yesterday because a great deal of points you had for her being scum is meaningless though I'll admit that excessive lurking is indeed CSLs scum-meta though I don't believe it's Amruns.

Inside the scum pool I'm finding Herodotus's actions in D2s twilight to be slightly townie which is making me feel reasonably better about him compared to the other three. Elibereths continued attempts at prod-dodging while admitting that it would be entirely understandable for her to be suspected for doing so reads as the opposite of what she did in Zorasters game where she was town. I'm also not understanding how Kanye has managed to continuously avoid the lynch and vig kills, he has shown an extreme survivalist nature at almost every turn jumping on anyone that isn't himself while trying to scrape together reasons to excuse his behavior while not showing any real signs of active scumhunting. Someone stated earlier that Mocking has been showing signs of focusing solely on Kanye all game and using him as a way to seem active and make it seem like she's putting forward contribution and I wholeheartly agree, strip away her attacks on Kanye and her filler and there's almost nothing in her ISO.

What I am unsure about and would like to have discussed with Faraday/Mina before posting this is the likelihood of Mockings push on Kanye being a buss and distancing attempt, it's something I'm leaning towards but aren't confident on at all. Right now though if I had to pick one of them that I'd prefer to lynch it'd be Kanye purely because the continued avoidance of him being lynched makes him a likely scum PR that's constantly being saved though I do very much want to take a good look at the VCA to see who exactly has been saving him throughout the past few days and it's something I hope to get done tomorrow.

Vote: Kanye

[Regfan]

Also, Regfan most of your analysis seemed relatively sound, until you concluded that Kanye should be lynched. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Can you attempt to summarize or explain your town-read on him for me then please. Also if you believe my analysis is relatively sound why are you voting Feysal when I elaborated into the need and benefits of aiming for scum today rather then third party?

As for Esp/Marg's potential buddies, I pointed out a while ago that Esp took care to justify Kanye's vote on Gandalf but not his own and said I thought they were potential buddies (Post 550).

Yes, you did ask Esp to be vigged quite a few times but asking for X or Y to be vigged is incredibly meaningless as the vig at the end of the day is going to end up shooting their own target and a recommendation from one specific player is likely to hold no weight whatsoever in their decision. I'd like an explanation as to why you never attempted to present a real case against Espeonage or comment on his ISO at all with the exception of pointing out a potential partner-tell with him and Kanye. If you really believed you nailed two scum (Espeonage and Kanye) wouldn't a skim or detailed read through of Espeonage and a presented case strengthen and solidify your scum-read on Kanye while providing ample information to lead a lynch?

Say what you want about the frequency of my posts, but don't call that "filler." I was going through my thought processes in the thread in hopes I sharing them and getting reactions would help me make sense of them because yesterday was incredibly confusing.

I'll admit filler is probably a little harsh and the wrong word but you spent a great deal of the game focusing solely on voting, putting forward reasons and questioning Kanye while really not attempting to chime and comment deeply on any of the other ongoing wagons. The biggest example of this is your introduction post into D2 focuses on Feysals claim and Kanye and nothing more than that. In #1297 you show your first signs of doubt in this read where you admit that SpyreXs reasoning for Kanye being town is sound but then progress onward to continue pushing your read without taking a chance to step back and really rethink it. Furthermore you never really commented on any of the other leading wagons and your biggest 'analysis' on an alternate player throughout the game was on my MoI isn't lyncher and is town which was relatively universally agreed upon at the time making the post read as an attempt to seem active while really contributing and presenting minimal.

I still strongly think mass-claim is what we should be doing here but I await Furcolows reveal on the scum he 'bagged'.

[Regfan]

The bolded is pretty much not true at all? please recall that i refused to vote feysal day 1 (someone i had a town read on) while pressure was on me was the heaviest. certainly i voted vitaminr and peregrine, but i did not have town reads on them, and smargaret was hardly a forced survivalist vote. also how was sticking to my guns on gandalf and not backing off survivalist? how about volunteering for vigging d2? your reasons have no base in reality.

Examples of your survivalist nature include and are not limited to your pushing towards claimed third parties at game-start rather then allowing or aiming for scumhunting to occurr elsewhere. Your jump on Pere while adding no reasons whatsoever towards your vote and your jump on Vitamin while adding no reasons whatsoever towards your vote. Volunteering for a vigging is absolutely meaningless, as stated earlier one persons recommendation or suggestion of who should be vigged is almost irrelevant because at the end of the day the vig is going to decide the shot by themselves.

And heres another thought: are mockingjaye and i bussing each other? if im a super powerful scum role like you say, why has mockingjaye been attempting to bus me all game? why did smargaret try to bus me?

This is actually a good point as to why MJaye/You aren't partners and why I wanted to discuss my thoughts and reads with Faraday/Mina. I re-read though and I don't see smargaret pushing towards you at all and Espeonage avoided doing so for a long time and when he did it was incredibly weakly placed.

[Regfan]

Don't see why you can't discuss everything here, Regfan.

I can, it's just likely to spam up the thread and and lead towards me constantly waiting and hoping for someone to reply. It looks like there's minimal chance of me getting neighbourized though so with that said, while you're online mind answering some questions for me:

1) How many scum are likely alive, how close/far are we likely to lylo?
2) Would a mass-claim now be better with or without name claims occurring?
3) Is your town-read on MoS so strongly due to the timing of his vote on Espeonage?

[Regfan]

So if you're truly worried about preventing the game from ending today and you're not just blowing smoke, you should be voting Feysal.

To put it simply, a scum lynch is a lot more powerful than a SK lynch in a larger game like this if the SK is willing to assist us in shooting and lynching scum. If we had a lot less players alive or this was a mini of some form I'd completely understand and be all for lynching Feysal right now but we can use him to shoot a predetermined pool effectively using him as a tool against the mafia and help dwindle down potential suspects. So MoS, who's scum?

Oh and Andrius, you need to yell at Faraday enough to get a complete reads list from him.

[Regfan]

MoI, if you don't mind I'd like to hear your current reads without VCAs impact on them. I really don't believe VCA is as powerful a tool as everyone seems to be making it out to be and is incredibly overused.

[Regfan]

MoI, you're right, I expected there to be more to gain in terms of working out night-kills but there's actually not that much. At the same time though there's an incredible amount of protective roles in the graveyard at the moment and a severe lack of investigative ones with the exception of the weak doctor so I'd bank on there being useful and relevant results coming from a mass-claim.

MoS, I don't think VCA is strong because I know for a fact that it's easily beatable as scum and have seen many cases where there was no scum at all on a town lynch on multiple days or multiple scum on a scum lynch.

I plan on spending tomorrow focusing on ISOing and reading much more deeply into Elibereth and Herodtous.

[Regfan]

So you'd rather reveal you have alternate information and expect us not to threaten or actually lynch or shoot you if you don't out it?

[Regfan]

Support your ‘easily beaten by scum’ stance with support of failing VCA. My VCA doesn’t rely on individual wagons, but the totality of the player’s votes. Scum may avoid one specific wagon but overall their behavior is going to be telling.

Willingly, it occurred noticiably in Invictus mafia, the VCA was done by scum yes, but it was overseen by you therefore it's not invalidated in any way. The results of it are below with the scum bolded, now tell me that VCA is still a strong tool after seeing that.

113 Zachrulez
113 Fate
85 Gammagooey
73 Nautilius
73 Tarhalindur
73 VitaminR
73 Gut

68 Ban
40 Duplicity
40 Benmage

40 MagnaofIllusion
40 The Illuminati

[Regfan]

The fact that it was prepared by scum means your point isn't valid. Of course scum are going to fashion a VCA that gives results that are misleading. Your stance that "it was overseen by you" isn't really meaningful. I was not 'in control' of the decisions DGB made in how she weighted particular wagons or whatnot.

My stance is that scum know that VCA is likely to occur at some point during the game therefore it's entirely possible and even probable that a good scum team would account for it by making sure that VCA doesn't reflect too negatively on them when it's done.

I still have a lot more re-reading and things I want to look into but I'm comfortable moving my vote at the moment.

Unvote: Kanye, Vote: MockingJaye

[Regfan]

I'm going to be incredibly busy in the next few days and likely won't be able to be super-active due to it but I do want someone to properly explain to me this whole Andrius/Empking situation. My previous understanding was that Empking just gave Andrius a role but Andrius stating he was lying all along and has a role confuses me massively.

[Regfan]

Getting to this game in a few hours. I'll read into and respond to Mjays wall then.

[Regfan]

Also – Gut is officially Town for being kicked out of the Seraph QT.

I think your 'officially town' read is extreme for such a minor tell here. The scum Seraphs are not going to kick out every townie from the Seraph QT, doing so would confirm anyone not being kicked out as mafia and 'clear' everyone being kicked out. Furthermore the amount of damage that can be done due to a particular player being in the QT isn't as strong as you seem to be letting of especially when another player is just as easily recruited into the QT. With that said though Guts 'plan' of pushing suspicion onto Empking to attain a reaction via using the Seraph as a strategical place reads as a strong town-tell.

------

I hate, hate, hate getting into quote walls with people, I feel it cloggs up the thread but I feel this is needed so I'll try and keep it minimal and only address the major points. I'll apologize in advance if it gets long winded or slightly difficult to understand.

Voting, putting forward reasons, and questioning your suspects is pretty much the point, isn't it? As for the second half of this, I already had someone say this to me, and I addressed it in 1154. And give me a break about "not commenting deeply." I have "commented deeply" on my main suspect and pointed out what I thought was scummy about other people all along. I may not have had a whole LOT to say about them, but I offered my two cents and continued to focus on my primary suspect.

Yes, it is the point of the game. But focusing solely on one target even if it's your strongest suspect isn't the aim of the game at all. Secondly you attempted to push or question Espeonage deeper after presenting a very valid point on why he's scummy or suspicious in #550 yet felt completely happy to continue to pester Kanye.

Acknowledging someone else has a good point doesn't mean I was doubting my own;

I didn't agree with his reasoning

, just as he didn't agree with mine. I was showing that I was considering what he was saying, but I didn't agree. I thought A LOT about it before I posted it. Saying I didn't is just your conjecture--like the only way I was really thinking it through was if I ended up changing my mind? But I DID think it through, and I didn't change my mind.

Lets take a look at exactly what you said:

Okay, so in writing out my argument about why I disagree with SpyreX’s point about Kanye and the D1 wagons that

I wrote myself into understanding if not completely agreeing with his argument.

You showed acknowledgement, understanding and to a degree agreement with his reasoning, you presented no real counter other than 'But maybe scum thought X instead' and stuck with your previous reasoning and logic. I can understand still suspecting Kanye after it and not fully agreeing with the conclusions that SpyreX was pushing but what I don't understand is that how presentation of his logical counter points didn't weaken your scum-read at all and you showed no real sign of scumhunting heavily elsewhere afterwards which makes your whole 'consideration period' seem non-existent.

I already addressed this; I commented when I thought it was necessary and kept my top 3-5 scum list updated as needed. And the issue about MoI was up in the air--he was not universally considered town, and I posted what I needed to post to establish my thoughts on the entire situation. It was basically a 1v1, and I thought they were both town, and I wanted to demonstrate why I thought they were BOTH town, and I was HOPING that would a) calm people down and b) spur some more level-headed discussion, or c) put my thoughts out there so I could see what other people thought, and maybe they could offer feedback if I was completely on the wrong track.

I disagree, MoI really wasn't 'heavily suspected' or even 'suspected' by any means and although you may have wanted to calm people down and spur discussion as well as reaffirm your thoughts I don't see how focusing on this situation was a relevant use of your time especially with deadline winding down.

I'm working out a VCA of my own to post before I'm lynched (or vigged), but here's a hint: my wagon is scum-driven, so that should help you narrow down your suspects tomorrow after all the flips are in.

mockingjaye - 4 - kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi, MagnaofIllusion, Regfan

You're claiming to have mega-strong town-reads on MoI and Ludi while also claiming to have a mega-strong scum-read on Kanye so your whole 'my wagon is scum driven' is either 1) You subtly declaring suspicion towards me or 2) You just finding another way of saying you suspect Kanye.

That surprisingly wasn't as long as I was expecting it to be.

[Regfan]

I second MoS when it comes to Furcolows comment, you need to explain, elaborate on and reveal any information you have.

Andrius, a few things. Thanks for getting them to start working on a list of reads. Secondly, Kyb is Kayne. Third, I don't understand your role and your lack of reasoning behind elaborting into it. And lastly, you'll need to explain your Mjaye town-read to me and your scum-meta on MoS. Also I'm not understanding your prior scum-read on Dekes and your complete avoidance on trying to state a read on me.

I'll have a summarized list of my reads up within the next day or two.

[Regfan]

Feysal, I want to know two things in particular, the first being your exact linkage towards Furcolow and the second being a list of your reads. You claim that you will be able to successfully target and kill scum tonight therefore I'm assuming you've continued following this game and attaining reads.

[Regfan]

To give one name, I was thinking of simply killing Mastermind of Sin. I had a look at his games recently, and his stance toward GreyICE in Mafiascum Fantasy Camp for claiming a third party role closely resembles his play toward my slot here.

I was scum with him in that game and other than his hatred for third parties (Which is a playstyle thing rather than an alignment indicator) his play doesn't resemble that game at all. If anything meta-comparing him from this game to that game makes him likely town.

[Regfan]

Nacho points out an interesting point in regards to Andrius, his change of story from 'no role whatsoever' to 'unknown role' and lack of complete elaboration about the whole scenario isn't making me feel good about him at all nor is his promise of providing content and future reads and lack of follow through on it.

I still very much want to lynch Mjaye today but the benefits of lynching Feysal given the situation make him an acceptable lynch as well and yes, I know this contradicts what I said earlier but I thought he was claiming to have 2 targets alive and therefore reason to follow our orders, it's also the reason I was asking if name-claiming should be avoided in a mass-claim. I also am starting to lean towards Herrodutus being mafia over Kanye and Nacho but only slightly.

It’s not simply for being kicked out. That was the last element that solified my read. I do find it funny that you take me to task for that when your “his push on Empking via reaction testing” you think is a strong-town tell when it’s really Null until we see Empking’s alignment.

If that's merely an element of your read on him then the strength of the town read makes a lot more sense. Also I don't think Empkings alignment reflects heavily on the towniness of Guts action, if Empking is scum it certainly has some factor into it and makes Gut near confirmed town but if Empkings town the pure reactions gained from it occurring generated content and the ability to attain an easier read on Empking due to his response and as such make Gut likely town.

[Regfan]

Andrius is no longer in contact with Faramina from what I gathered and I'm still waiting for the new mouthpiece to come forward and post

Faraday

Minas list of reads before we even consider ending the day. I also want Nachos thoughts on every player in the game posted too.

[Regfan]

Going to finish reading the rest of the page in a few minutes, will probably reply tonight when I get back from a party.

I have been focused on my biggest scumread while sharing other reads. For the bolded part, do you mean I

didn't

attempt to push or question Esp further? Because if you did, you forgot a word. If you didn't forget a word, then . And I did ask Esp things, he just wouldn't answer them. I asked a lot of questions on D1 and D2, and if they weren't outright ignored, they were answered very vaguely. When I did ask him something, Esp wouldn't respond to me anymore than Kanye would, if you go back and look. And yes I was completely happy to "pester Kanye" because he was and is my top scum read. I figured we could come back to Esp after we got Kanye lynched. I also thought Kanye might have a scum-PR based on how his wagons were breaking up and how defensive people have been about him.

Yes I did miss a word being didn't and reading back I really am not seeing this questioning of Espeonage that you're claiming to have done, quoting or linking me to them would be greatly appreciated.

It didn't weaken my read because it wandered down a long path of WIFOM and counter-WIFOM and the points I have on Kanye were separate from that. How can you not understand unless you're being deliberately obtuse?

Understanding another persons counter-argument against your case even when you might not fully agree with it at the end of the

should

weaken your read or at least create an element of uncertainty. I keep coming back to this point because your whole 'what if' counter point wasn't and isn't as strong as you're making it out to be.

First of all: you put "heavily suspected" in quotation marks like I said it--I didn't. I just said MoI wasn't universally considered town at that point. And, if you read the comments made, he wasn't.

Everyone should have questioned their reads on both him and Amrun on D3 after they both claimed the same role.

And how was it not relevant? In every post, MoI was demanding an Amrun lynch; there was a low rumbling of "I'm not saying MoI is scum but he might be" going on, and it was pretty much all anyone was talking about.

WTF do you mean it wasn't a relevant use of time?

I was deciding whom I believed, and as it happens, I believed them both. I wanted everyone to shut up and stop finger-pointing for five minutes and consider that they could both be telling the truth; scum thrive in confusion, and yesterday was confusing.

I wasn't trying to quote you at all, I use quotation marks to emphaize key words. MoIs insistence on lynching Armun yesterday mostly revolved around the fact that he was suicidal if she didn't get lynched, retraction of that from the Seraphs sorted the whole situation out very easily. And no, although they name-counter claimed it most certainly didn't mean that at least one of them had to be scum and I don't remember many or any people stating that during my read through. I would actually like you to link me to people pushing for MoIs lynch during this time other than Amruns slight push towards him.

At any rate, I addressed this in my previous post about reads. If you're town, what direction are you going to take when I flip town? What would you do if you were in my position and knew you were town? You would look at who is pushing your lynch/vig as well, wouldn't you? Do you honestly think that of the four people who were on my wagon when I first posted this, all of them are town? (Kanye, you, Ludi, MoI)

I find wagon analysis to be very trivial, although just by odds it's unlikely that four people voting one person are all town the possibility shouldn't be ruled out for that, furthermore the whole 'I'm town thus there has to be scum pushing me!' is illogical. The fact that there's numerous votes on you mean you're being viewed as scummy or objectively scum from a number of people and considering how all of the people voting you can't be scum it means that there's a townie finding you scummy thus there's every chance that everyone voting you is finding you legitimately scum and town. As for what I'd do if you were to flip town; I'd probably focus a bit more time reading into Kanye and your points against him as well as looking very hard at Herrodutus, his town read on you is all sorts of illogical.

Kanye was a significant wagon at the time, and you have nothing to say about him at that point at all. In fact, it isn't until you're at about page 53 of your read-through that you do mention him, at which time your say he's scum. Why, exactly, is he scum at that point and nothing before?

I tried to refrain from stating a read on Kanye too early in my read through because it's what I did in Sexy Sedilla and I misread him badly and ended up focusing more of my effort pushing towards him than I would have liked in that game. As for why I started heavily suspecting him at around page 53 I would have to re-read the section to answer that.

[Regfan]

2. I’m going to say this part one more time. Understanding someone else’s argument doesn’t mean I have to believe my own is weaker. I spent a good deal of time thinking through that entire thing, mainly because I didn’t see where SpyreX was coming from at first, but even when I did work through it, and saw his PoV, I still thought his argument hinged too much on WIFOM and that I was basing my reads on all of Kanye’s posting on D1 and D2 which I believe is very scummy. I then acknowledged Spy’s argument and rejected it in favor of my own. I don’t care if you think it was too weak—the point is, I DIDN’T. It was what I kept coming back to, and what I couldn’t shake out of my head, and thus why I rejected the counter. (And in regards to the whole argument thing, I’m going to give you a concrete real world example of why you’re wrong: I have had many discussions with a friend who has a different belief system than mine own. Just because I understand what he’s saying doesn’t mean I have to stop believing what I believe or that I have to develop a sense of uncertainty about it. Your statement here is fallacious on all sorts of levels, and I think you’re just trying to use it to fluff up your case against me.)

Comparing suspicion towards a player in a game of mafia to moral or religious beliefs outside of the game is a complete and utter joke. Religious beliefs are generally very strongly held and therefore understanding another persons viewpoint is likely to have little to no impact at all upon someones opinion whereas a mafia game revolves around dealing and using whatever little information you have to decipher someones real intentions or motives. I

still

don't understand how someone can be so strongly convinced in a certain belief in mafia (Such as Kanye wagon stalling makes him scum no matter what) that another logical viewpoints (Such as SpyreXs) bared no impact on their thoughts even after reading through it and acknowledging that it makes sense.

3.

I didn’t say people were calling for his lynch—I said he wasn’t universally considered town.

There is a BIG difference, and once again, you're phrasing your questions/comments to/about me in such as way to make it look like I said or meant something I didn't.

If no one is calling for MoIs lynch then he's in no immediate threat therefore time is best spent elsewhere and your defense of him was unneeded. As for your list of people showing doubt in MoI, most of it is horse shit. I've already acknowledged that Amrun did suspect MoI mostly through survival and remove Fesyals suspicion due to him being a claimed third party. That leaves what, Ludi, Dekes, Wisp, MoS and Herod. That's five players only that showed uncertainty of MoIs strong town status and neither of them thought he was scum but rather a third party with none of them showing any signs of willingess or desire to lynching him.

5. It’s not illogical for me to think scum are pushing a mislynch. Not illogical at all. I get why town might have misread me, and I certainly don't think all of the people who want me dead are scum. That doesn’t change the fact that scum actually know I’m town, and that scum are going to happily seize an opportunity for an easy mislynch, and before they succeed, I am going to say exactly what I think about who they are.

It is illogical, an experienced mafia player should know full well that jumping and grasping at conclusions such as "Scum are pushing my lynch, there must be scum on my lynch!" especially when the number of votes cast against you is as small as four is reaching. As for reading into that section as to why I initially started suspecting Kanye is going to have to wait until I get home from a family lunch event but I will get around to it as soon as I can. Will that said though this is likely to be one of the last walls I respond back to you with, I'm getting stuck focusing on one player and it's leading me to not paying as much attention as I'd like to elsewhere.

[Regfan]

@MockingJaye:

1. Think what you want, but I don't believe I've been 'insulting' at all. I've already gone into how your real world example is uncomparitable to this game and don't particularly want to go over it again. Furthermore I'm not 'fighting' your scum-read on Kanye but rather the strength of it and the fact that you haven't waivered on it at all despite valid points behind brought up as to why he could potentially be town and trust me I have read all your points and arguments over Kanye.

2. Now you can state that I'm making a mountain over a molehill all you want but my point in regards to this has always been the same; that I find your defence of MoI yesterday as an attempt to seem active and participating without actually doing all that much and your explanation over why it was needed hasn't convinced me or changed my mind about this at all. Lets run through how this actually happened again:

- I say that your posts include element of filler posting in Post #1933.
- You say that your posts aren't filler at all in Post #1948.
- I say that your focus towards MoI reads as an attempt to seem actively participating while really doing close to nothing in Post #1951.
- You say that the MoI issue was up in the air and you wanted to vent your thoughts as well as mimimalize confusion at the time in Post #2049.
- I say that MoI wasn't really suspected at all and that attempting to mimalize confusion isn't a relevant use of your time in Post #2060.
- You say that he wasn't universally town and there was uncertainty to his alignment in Post #2154.
- I say that there was no intention or danger of him being lynched and that your defense was unneeded in Post #2163.

3. You're insinuating that there isn't alternate mslynch bait in this game and that you're apparently important enough that the scum would be likely to all jump and push for your mslynch, that's a large assumption to make in a game like this where for instance I suspect roughly five players and I doubt they're all scum.

My goal has been really simple this entire time, I've been trying to understand where you're coming from and why your scum-read on Kanye is so strong and unwaivering and I still don't understand it. That attached with the leaps you've been making in regards to 'Scum on my wagon' and 'You're misrepping me!' haven't made me feel any better about you at all. I want to step back from this game for a day or two and re-look at everything because honestly at this point this argument or debate with you has taken up majority of my time in regards to this game. I did read back at page 53 and what threw me over the edge about Kanye at the time was his unexplained jump on Vitamir and his survivalist nature attached with it.

[Regfan]

That'll be my last wall in a while, promise. I'm going to take roughly 24 hours of but I'll state a summarization of my thoughts before a lynch occurs and I'm really hoping someone can get hold of Faraday for him to post his reads before then as well.

[Regfan]

Feysal, it's lesso that third party players opinions don't matter and moreso that third party players showing suspicion towards someone with no real shot of being lynched isn't worthy of convincing otherwise.

Ludi, can you post Faradays reads please. I'll have my reads and thoughts up in about 5-6 hours so I'd appreciate if the hammer wasn't laid before then and if needed I'll lay the hammer down myself.

[Regfan]

Ugh. I'm leaving in about 20 minutes and not getting back for at least 5 hours, fuck. I'll try and still get my summarized reads up in time but looks like waiting for isn't going to happen then and I may as well place a vote down to secure the lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

[Regfan]

That only places him at L-1 by the way, someone is still going to have to hammer.

[Regfan]

Feysal - 7

- Empking, Andrius, MagnaofIllusion, Mastermind of Sin, Sun and Moon, Magister Ludi, Regfan.

With 8 to lynch that only leaves Gut, Kanyeknowsbest, Mockingjaye, Nachomma8 and Herodotus to hammer.

[Regfan]

Just got home and I'm hoping Plum doesn't wake up for a while so I have a few good hours to respond to Mjaye one last time and have my reads posted.

[Regfan]

Mockingjaye, I do understand your scum-read on Kanye, what I don't understand is the incredible amount of strength you have in the read and it's what I've had trouble comprehending this entire time. Secondly, you're using elements of circular reasoning in regards to your reads. I'm having trouble finding the words to explain this but the best way I can put is that you're backing up your statement of 'There's scum on my wagon' by stating that your scum-reads are on your wagon and backing up your scum-reads by claiming that they're on your wagon.

With all that said I went back and re-read #1948 that Faraday suggested and I can see where he's coming from, that attached with your early claim are making me start to doubt my scum-read on you. I really want to get a full re-read of this day phase done overnight.

[Regfan]

Town Reads (S->W):

[/b] Amrun, Ludi, MoI, Gut, Empking, MoS.

Third Party:

Furcolow, Feysal.

Scum Reads (S->W):

Herodotus, Kanyeknowsbest, Nachomamma8.

Unlisted Reads:

Andrius - Leaning scum on him weakly but I need to re-read exactly what has gone on or what he's claimed to have gone on in regards to his role.
Mockingjaye - This is purely because I want to sleep on this and then re-read the whole argument overnight.

PEDIT: Thanks Feysal, I'm actually slightly glad that you didn't actually shoot this slot, it's given me something to focus on now that most of my games are over.

[Regfan]

I'm going for a run, I'll comment on this game when I get back but I'd say that D4s results are quite spectacular, two third parties and a scum down with no loss.

[Regfan]

I re-read overnight and as much as I'd hate to say it Mockingjaye is probably town, all other of my thoughts can wait until MoS responds if he ever does.

Herrodotus, I'd like for you to point out specific examples that makes you think that.

[Regfan]

Herodotis, by looking at his profile and seeing: Last visited: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:44 pm.

Vote: MoS

[Regfan]

Overall, I feel worst about mjay from this flip. Can someone detail why they thought the flip made mjay townier?

My thinking Mjaye is townie has absolutely nothing to do with any flips, it has to do with me re-reading her argument/debate with me. I haven't gone back and done an interaction-check between Andrius and other players yet nor do I really plan to, not knowing when he received his role makes a lot of it futile.

I won't comment on MoS's claim until MoI responds.